So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!
John Jacobson
do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to move
on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the relevance of
these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
--
John M. Jacobson
Jake's Blog on Delphi and Programming: http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/
Fred Derf
Johnnie Norsworthy
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has nothing
>to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
>
> I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to move
> on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the relevance
> of these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
>
Later, Jake! It was fun to disagree with you these many years. :)
With Turbo Pascal and Delphi, the community made the product in spite of the
company. And now it seems the loyal Delphi community is disbanding. I think
DevCo must still expect a new cult following to make their products
desirable, like they did in the past. These days I'm not sure WHAT products
though. I just don't see that happening.
Have yourself some programming fun in whatever you do. Programming is an art
and a science and a way to get paid for solving puzzles all day long.
-Johnnie
Bruno
"Fred Derf" <som...@microsoft.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I.P. Nichols
>I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days.
I'll miss you. <bye bye>
> It has nothing to
> do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
Oh well, what's a girl to do. ;-)
Bruce McGee
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
vizacc
After that, you can leave delphi in peace.
Q Correll
Will be sorry to see you go!
Good luck in and with whatever!!!
--
Q
11/24/2007 14:25:37
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
Iman L Crawford
> nothing to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and
> CodeGear.
..and I'm just working my way back out of lurking mode. Sorry to see you
go. Good luck in your future endeavors.
--
Iman
Bob Dawson
>I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days.
Live long and prosper, Jake. May our paths cross again.
bobD
John Jacobson
"vizacc" <nos...@nosmap.com> wrote in message
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Interested to sell the sources for your newsgroup reader?
> After that, you can leave delphi in peace.
It would not be practical for me to sell it. The code itself would not be
easy to make saleable, because there are too many third-party components and
libraries being used. Plus, I actually want to keep working on it, though it
looks like I will have to use Visual C++ for much of the additional
functionality (like PAR2 processing, etc.). In addition, I'm not sure I have
a good way to tell what it is worth. I'm not as pessimistic about it's
commercial possibilities as I used to be, so I'd like to keep the option
open to turn it into a product.
It would make NO sense for me to rewrite it at this point.
Finally, it is not that I want to rid myself of Delphi altogether. I just
plan to stop participating in these newsgroups in a few days.
Kostya
> plan to stop participating in these newsgroups in a few days.
So you've got board with us. Piss of for good then;)
Dennis Passmore
>Enough of what?
Too many excuses for bad design and leadership ideas.
jbo...@houston.rr.com
You've got to stay focused in your vision mate. You get to distracted
by the noise and the future of coding blah blah, as microsoft would
like it to be. Hate to see you go....Good luck with the news reader,
its really hard work getting a v 1.0 out the door, as you can imagine,
and code gear has done a great job keeping delphi on the path to
success....
Dennis Landi
"John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has nothing
>to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
>
> I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to move
> on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the relevance
> of these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
>
Is there a paticular thread I missed? (I've been on holiday)
-d
Robert Giesecke
>
> Is there a paticular thread I missed? (I've been on holiday)
>
His doctor told him that too many lemons lead to stomach ulcers...
JohnE
>to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
Good luck trying to stay away.. I've tried, and it's easier said than done.
John
John Jacobson
"Dennis Landi" <na...@nada.com> wrote in message
news:474990cd$2...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I've gotten tired of the humorless and insulting way CodeGear and TeamB
comport themselves, both in these newsgroups, and in the way they have
managed Delphi. The emperor has no clothes and I'm not interested in helping
him wax the dolphin.
Jolyon Smith
> >I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has nothing
> >to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
>
> Good luck trying to stay away.. I've tried, and it's easier said than done.
<chuckle>
The same thought crossed my mind.... somehow I just can't help but keep
coming back, although these days it is more in hope than expectation or
with any particular relish.
I guess I'm still looking for signs and portents that things may yet
change for the better.
Odd - I'm not usually that optimistic.
:)
@ John J : Good luck - I hope that like me you find it harder to
actually stay away than to decide that you are going to.
;)
--
JS
TWorld.Create.Free;
Marcelo Carvalho
It's related to the solid constructed behavior Borland ever did in the
past. Even not needing any help, many of us come here to check the news,
"read" the friends, help the others... We go to the Borcons, we buy
"Borland" TShirts, Cups, Pens, and products, of course.
But Borland is so involved in destroying this spirit that it may be
successful. Nothing wrong about having the objective to have profits
(necessary to keep existing), but it seems that immediate monetary results
are the priority.
It seems that it's not enough to be a reference in the developers
market - their strategies are a bit confused, not mentioning the identity
crisis. First the change to Inprise, unsuccessful - now the change for
CodeGear, while the name Borland is still powerful between the developers,
and while Borland means nothing in other markets. Who never heard someone
telling you that never heard about "Interbase"? Borland means developing.
It's a critical moment - Borland must keep the warm there is between
them and their customers. Besides technical and practical reasons, there's
an emotional component that keep people using a specific tool. The quantity
of messages in this news is a critical indicator of this temperature.
--
[][][][]
Marcelo.
"Jolyon Smith" <jsm...@deltics.co.newzealand> escreveu na mensagem
news:MPG.21b49cfa4...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Eric Grange
Personally I found the spirit was already gone way back in the D8
release days, and the attitude was already that of denial.
Still checking from time to time though, hoping for a miracle...
Eric
Trev
used to be a vibrant fun place. We have all stuck with Delphi despite their
buggy releases and other external market pressures. Part of the reason was
the them and us mentality that bound us together. It now appears that
something has changed and the 'Spirit of Delphi' is broken.
Take care John
Trev
"John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
David Farrell-Garcia
> This is a sad reflection of where things are going. The Delphi
> community used to be a vibrant fun place. We have all stuck with
> Delphi despite their buggy releases and other external market
> pressures. Part of the reason was the them and us mentality that
> bound us together. It now appears that something has changed and the
> 'Spirit of Delphi' is broken.
>
Really? hmmm. I hadn't noticed. I guess I will have to come back
here more often to find out about all the bad things happening with
Delphi and the "Delphi spirit", but I have been too busy making a
living writing Delphi applications.
It is a bit silly to let a newgroup forum dictate your direction with
your development tools.
--
David Farrell-Garcia
Whidbey Island Software, LLC
Russ
and gloom naysayers. To them, I just don't see why everyone is so down on
Codegear. I find this past year to be refreshing with all the openness,
enhancements, excellent blogs, etc.
I am enthused about my chosen development tool, more so than in several
years past.
Russ
"John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Tom Corey
> It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
<yawn>
Bye.
Tom Corey
> I guess I'm still looking for signs and portents that things may yet
> change for the better.
Huh. Lessee... D2005, awful. D2006, better. D2007, much, much better,
bordering on damn good. Patches. Published roadmap. Increased
communication via newsgroup participation and blogs.
Funny. I'm seeing plenty of signs that things have changed for the
better, and every indication that they will continue to improve.
Del Murray
I think you are right about nay-sayers. It has been "kind of" excitiing but
not completely. There is so much of a difference between the Delphi 5
release and the D2007 release that it is almost like starting over. Which
most people dont mind, but the lack of an effective help file has just
killed the enthusiasm for me. It seems that if you arent a Delphi genius,
then even the simplest of tasks (previously), like getting access to the TLB
for Crystal Reports or any other libraries, is beyond the average
programmers reach. I need to spend my time writing code and not figuring out
how this "tool" is put together. I buy tools to use, not to have to
maintain. I cant even install any of the updates to D2007 without wiping out
my entire install of D2007 and starting from scratch because I didnt know I
would be required to keep the cache file in order to move forward with
updates. It is that kind of thing that dampens everyones enthusiasm.
I, like John, have been spending time lately looking at alternatives ..
which I thought I would *never* do.
Del
David Erbas-White
The single biggest thing (IMHO) CodeGear could do to enhance their
perception among users is to improve the help/documentation while making
it available for use on older versions (for those who've been 'orphaned).
Those who bought 2006 and don't have decent documentation bought, at
best, half a product.
David Erbas-White
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> It seems that if you arent a Delphi genius, then even the simplest of
> tasks (previously), like getting access to the TLB for Crystal
> Reports or any other libraries, is beyond the average programmers
> reach.
NB: I have a demo app of this on my CodeCentral page. The hardest part
about it is the Crystal Reports documentation, which makes D2005's look
stellar, and the source code for the control, or, rather, the total
lack thereof.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Want to help make Delphi and InterBase better? Use QC!
http://qc.borland.com -- Vote for important issues
JohnE
> perception among users is to improve the help/documentation while making
> it available for use on older versions (for those who've been 'orphaned).
I couldn't agree more.
Further, I'd hire Xavier Pacheco to do a manual for each release.
John
John Jacobson
" Tom Corey" <omtay....@otmailhay.omcay> wrote in message
news:xn0fe5jup...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I'm giving up on Delphi for my career because I don't want to have to move
every time some idiot executive decides to kill a project and lay off all
the developers in that project. There is not enough market penetration to
satisfy my desire to stay put in my new house and do Delphi. If I was to
stay in Delphi I would have to look at the (dwindling) national market
instead of just the local market. That's really the main reason I'm
abandoning Delphi as a career option. There is not a critical mass anymore,
and there hasn't been for years.
My newsreader is a huge project and it is written in Delphi. That's not
going to be rewritten if I can help it. But I can't reuse open-source C++or
free C++ code without using Visual C++, because Borland/CodeGear let C++
Builder fall so far behind that it is now useless for most of the open
source C++ code out there. So, I will be adding additional functionality to
my newsreader using Visual C++. I don't have much choice in the matter.
Finally, as I said before, I don't want to participate in these newsgroups
much longer. I'm not going to make any silly ultimatums or demands or some
pompous declaration of the "ways things ought to be". I simply do not enjoy
them the way I used to. They now seem humorless and sterile, not to mention
increasingly desperate. People have to spend too much time reparsing their
own sentences, worrying too much about being politically correct, and wading
through too much war between the Panglossian residents of de-Nile and the
Henny Penny doomsayers. The medium has become the message.
In the past year, what has happened with Delphi? D2007 was a bug fix, for
the most part. I have long had a wishlist of what I would love to see in
Delphi (which I won't repeat here because Google has it stored for
posterity) and nothing on that wishlist has materialized. In fact, I don't
see much difference between Delphi's current management and the way it was
managed before CodeGear, when it comes to practical stuff I can use in my
native Win32 development.
What does the future hold for Delphi and native Win32 development at
CodeGear? I sure don't know, and nor does anyone else. Anyone that says they
do know is lying. I'll be watching them, and if they produce something
compelling that I can use for my large Delphi code base for my newsreader I
may upgrade.
Del Murray
I'll check out the article. I have full documentation of the Crystal
reporting engine. Business Objects (BO .. appropriate too) sells it in a
paper back book for about 10 buck and it is excellent ... everyting you need
to make a report go sideways on its head if you want.
Del
Del Murray
Ok ... I know how to do what you do in the project. My point was missed I
think. On your project description you state "you have to import the crystal
type libraries" .. there is the problem. That was easy in Delphi 5. It now
requires some convoluted process which I have not been able to figure out.
You cant just directly import the current libraries anymore.
Del
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
doing it in 2006:
#
Component|Install Component
*
Choose “VCL for Delphi Win32”, then “Import a Type Library”
*
Scroll to – Crystal Reports 9 ActiveX Designer Run Time Library
(Version 9.0)
*
Click Next, then check “Generate component wrappers,” then Next
*
Click “Finish” when you get to the Create unit page
#
Component|Install Component
*
Choose “VCL for Delphi Win32”, then “Import ActiveX control”
*
Crystal Report Viewer Control 9 (Version 9.2)
*
Click Next, then check “Generate component wrappers.”
*
Click “Finish” when you get to the Create unit page
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx
Allen Bauer (CodeGear)
> I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has
> nothing to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and
> CodeGear.
>
> I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to
> move on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the
> relevance of these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
Jake,
I, for one, am sorry that you feel that way. If there was anything I
had done to make you feel this way, I truly appologize. If you could
spend a few moments and enumerate some specific reasons/instances why
you feel this way, that would be very helpful. You may do so via
private email if you would rather.
--
Allen Bauer
CodeGear
Chief Scientist
http://blogs.borland.com/abauer
Del Murray
That doesnt get the job done in D2007. There is no way that the controls get
added to the tools set. I think I recall someone saying that I had to build
a package and then install the package ..etc. I'm a programmer/analyst, not
a compiler engineer and without specific documentation that is beyond my
reach since I have no idea how D2007 is put together. Its this kind of stuff
that leaves simple folk like me twisting in the wind. Not that the grass is
greener on the other side, but I'm really stuck on this with out good
documentation to help me out. I have managed to create an olecontainer
object which gets the job done (though not to my satisfaction) with Crytal
8.5 but Crystal 11 is the current release and I cant get there with D2007
with out some help from CodeGear. They took what was IDE functionality
(properly so) to add access to a TLB and automatically add the associtated
objects to the tool palette, and turned it into an undocumented magic trick.
Any help in getting on the right track with this would be appreciated.
Del
Ted
> I've gotten tired of the humorless and insulting way CodeGear and TeamB
> comport themselves, both in these newsgroups, and in the way they have
> managed Delphi. The emperor has no clothes and I'm not interested in
> helping him wax the dolphin.
The next release of Delphi will probably be titled Titanic, so you might
need that dolphin ;-)
Mike Vance
and is getting better, but can never be "new" in an exciting sense
again. Those who crave "excitement" run off to the latest development
tool that is all the rage. Delphi ... just keeps getting better and
better, doing what it is suppose to.
Thomas Miller
How exciting would it be to see:
Unicode
64 bit
FreePascal Cross compile
Remote debugging for FreePascal builds
Open Source VCL
Java Byte Code compiler
DBX drivers for FreePascal and Opened Sourced
Imagine having your business server on Linux using rem objects to serve
up native Rem Objects API, Web Services, and REST all at the same time.
Writing w32, .Net, Mac, and Web faces to the business logic.
They where able to do it for Ruby and .Net, so why not Java or Mono?
This stuff will never happen or happen when it is to late.
--
Thomas Miller
Chrome Portal Project Manager
CPCUG Programmers SIG Chairperson (formally Delphi)
Delphi Client/Server Certified Developer
BSS Accounting & Distribution Software
BSS Enterprise Accounting FrameWork
http://www.bss-software.com
http://programmers.cpcug.org/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/chromeportal/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/uopl/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dbexpressplus
John Jacobson
>
> I, for one, am sorry that you feel that way. If there was anything I
> had done to make you feel this way, I truly appologize. If you could
> spend a few moments and enumerate some specific reasons/instances why
> you feel this way, that would be very helpful. You may do so via
> private email if you would rather.
Well, I had been thinking about leaving these newsgroups for quite some time
now, for reasons that are actually mostly different than the things that
triggered my decision to follow through.
The things that drew me to Delphi originally are now anachronisms. When
Delphi was released in 1995 I was thrilled, mostly because I was tired of
Microsoft's antitrust activities and was looking for salvation in Borland,
having cut my teeth on Borland C++, but also because it was a unique
combination of both RAD and an OO language. Sure, there were others that
tried, such as Optima++, but it was Delphi alone that had really succeeded
in combining those two wonderful features. I saw and realized large
productivity gains from the very first day I used Delphi. That advantage
lingered even though Borland was rudderless after Philippe Kahn was pushed
out. Nothing else even came close, for a long time. Java looked menacing for
a while, especially with Visual Cafe rocketing to become the number one IDE,
but it settled in and plateaued before it could ever be truly RAD. I had an
off-again-on-again love affair with Delphi as a career choice, and was in
fact Delphi-only from 2001 until last year. But the years of neglect that
have left Delphi relatively unchanged have thereby diminished its
popularity, and it's viability as a career choice. Last year I decided that
it was probably finally time to move on in my career, especially after the
IDE sale went bust. I did go through a period of relative optimism based on
the possibility that as a small start-up type of firm that CodeGear could
catch that fire that only entrepreneurial startups can capture. I'm not
going to name names, but I don't think Delphi's current managers have that
spark (if its any consolation, thats park seems to be extremely rare). I
have to be brutally honest and say that I haven't seen anything from
CodeGear for Delphi that I would not have seen from Borland. D2007 was for
the most part just a bug fix for D2006 (which is a trend that seems
increasingly common in the software industry by the way).
Borland has been coasting on second-hand executives ever since Kahn left.
Delphi has indeed been dying, ever since Helsjberg and Kahn left. It has
been one of the longest product deaths in the history of modern economics,
and I suspect it will go on for quite a few more years. I attribute that
length to the utter lack of competition in the RAD/OOP space until recently.
However, when .NET finally appeared, it sapped most of the remaining Delphi
faithful and the product lost critical mass. Once you deplete the community
this badly, you've depleted the greatest reason for going with Delphi these
days. The community that is left now are mostly the truly stubborn and
faithful, and the increasingly desperate. It is not much fun anymore, at
least to me.
I don't *know* why CodeGear has not been able/willing to completely
revolutionize the software development landscape. I can think of plenty of
innovations I'd love to see in IDE's (in fact I've listed these in prior
posts and blogs). My *hunch* is that CodeGear is running on a small budget
that might be great for profits, but terrible for expensive things like new
features. With Delphi and C++Builder having fallen so far behind (example:
the state of the help system when D2007 as released), it would take a lot of
resources just to get to par. So I can't be too optimistic that CodeGear
will soon produce a product that I would be willing to base my career on. I
just bought a new house and I don't intend to move, but the current Delphi
job market is too thin to ensure that.
I'm not saying that Delphi *will* die any time soon. I've noticed that the
eventual truth of predictions of the future tends to be indinstinguishable
from randomness. I just know that I can not risk my career only on the
*possibility* that CodeGear may be successful in propelling Delphi back into
a viable career choice. It would take a lot for that to happen. First of
all, CodeGear would somehow have to escape the notoriety that Borland has
fogged up around Delphi. I don't see that happening yet, and CodeGear has
been a separate division for a whole year now. Second, CodeGear would have
to succeed in convincing corporate America that Delphi is a viable
alternative to Visual Studio or the other IDE's out there. That would be a
Herculean task.
I get the sensation that I am not alone in my analysis of Delphi as a career
choice. When I look at the Delphi job listings, they are few and are
scattered widely, and they almost always involve using older versions of
Delphi, i.e. they are maintenance (and almost always are not Senior Software
Engineer positions). I personally know of several former Delphi developers
that are now doing something else, and I know of none that have voluntarily
come to Delphi from elsewhere. Yes, this is not a scientific study, it is
just one man's observations for whatever they are worth, but unless they are
rather idiosyncratic, there is very little new blood coming into Delphi and
quite a bit of old blood going out. The Delphi world has been appearing to
exsanguinate for quite some time, as Delphi as a career choice fades away.
It can be depressing to be a part of a dying world, especially when you come
to the realization that you have probably been living in denial for years. I
think that may perhaps explain the increasing level of irritation and
testiness that has been turning these newsgroups into an unattractive place.
The tone and tenor has definitely NOT been on the uptick in the past year.
Someone makes a joke that Leno has told myriad times on the Tonight Show and
he gets castigated by CodeGear and TeamB and piled on as if he had Runed the
day by telling a joke worthy of the KKK. Someone else gets called a racist
by TeamB merely for stating a fact about the demographic distribution of
crime in America. Participants that share their peeves about Delphi get
treated like parasites. The Panglossians decry the doomsayers. CodeGearians
say that great things are coming, if only we wait long enough. (But we've
been told that for years and years. Those who waited through Delphi 8, 2005
and 2006 have displayed amazing amounts of patience and faith. And what has
been our reward? A thin job market and the right to pay $400 to get a
bug-fix.)
As for the actual triggers, I've been increasingly unsatisfied with the way
these newsgroups have been moderated and handled. I don't think there is
much chance that they will somehow be handled in a way that I like, since
they are a corporate forum. I have my own set of preferences and they are
very different than that of the moderators and controllers. That's fine, I
don't *need* to keep posting here, and nobody *needs* to read my opinions. I
am not aware of any great sea-change that would make my departure
irresponsible.
I will be watching the newsgroups, especially around the time of a release,
to see if there is anything useful for the large Delphi code base I have
invested in my newsreader, but I'm going to be reallocating my posting time
to more productive pursuits, such as reading books, actually working on the
newsgroup reader, watching movies, and spending more time with my wife. I
personally think that is a very good reallocation of my time.
So I will read replies to my posts, perhaps reply to a few, and then when
there are no more replies to my posts, I will fade into a very distant
lurking mode.
-
> ... The community that is left now are mostly the truly stubborn and
> faithful, and the increasingly desperate.
What wonderful thoughts of your fellow man.
> It is not much fun anymore, at least to me.
Are you having a mid-life crisis?
> I just bought a new house...
Ah! That explains much.
> I don't see that happening yet, and CodeGear has
> been a separate division for a whole year now.
Wow. I don't know about you but some of my projects take 18 months to
Alpha release.
> but I'm going to be reallocating my posting time to more productive pursuits,
> such as reading books, actually working on the
> newsgroup reader, watching movies, and spending more time with my wife. I
> personally think that is a very good reallocation of my time.
IMHO, regardless of your programming future that is good advice for
anyone.
Good luck.
Brian Moelk
> My *hunch* is that CodeGear is running on a small budget that might
> be great for profits, but terrible for expensive things like new
> features.
IMO, new features aren't enough. A new platform is required to make a
real statement in the development landscape: .NET and Java. These
things take years of sustained R&D and marketing effort and clearly
beyond the scope of what CodeGear is capable and committed to doing.
> I just know that I can not risk my career only on the
> *possibility* that CodeGear may be successful in propelling Delphi back into
> a viable career choice. It would take a lot for that to happen.
Agreed. Beyond that, IMO, Delphi being Windows-only and primarily
focused on rich GUIs is a non starter in the internet-enabled world.
> First of
> all, CodeGear would somehow have to escape the notoriety that Borland has
> fogged up around Delphi. I don't see that happening yet, and CodeGear has
> been a separate division for a whole year now.
IMO, this is a double edged sword. The only reason why anyone cares
about CodeGear is their Borland legacy.
> Second, CodeGear would have
> to succeed in convincing corporate America that Delphi is a viable
> alternative to Visual Studio or the other IDE's out there. That would be a
> Herculean task.
This is simply not going to happen.
[...]
> but I'm going to be reallocating my posting time
> to more productive pursuits, such as reading books, actually working on the
> newsgroup reader, watching movies, and spending more time with my wife. I
> personally think that is a very good reallocation of my time.
Indeed.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
bmo...@NObrainSPAMendeavorFOR.MEcom
Gil
"-" wrote in message
> Wow. I don't know about you but some of my projects take 18 months to
> Alpha release.
are you saying that Delphi 2007 is in a Beta state?
-
maravi...@hotmail.com says...
HA. No. It is simply order of magnitude. He is complaining about 1 year
and for me that is not a long time to work on a project/product cycle.
IMHO for the OP it comes down to what he sees or in this case does not
see for his future.
Johnnie Norsworthy
Doomsayers: Those that try to speak about a project going down the drain,
but in the wrong direction of the whirlpool. Coriolus be praised. Only the
best Easter Eggs will make the product survive.
Text after "End." ignored.
Eric Grange
Indeed.
IMO it all boils down to strategic mistakes (playing in MS's hand by
going the Delphi.Net route, and suggesting .Net and C# were the sole way
forward) and tactical mistakes (buggy releases, apalling doc/help, PR
problems).
Eric
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
similar enough to D2006 that I could figure it out with some trial and
error, especially with the info in your last message.
1) File->New->Package.
2) Save package as Crystal.dproj
3) Follow all steps in my last message, but on the last page of the
wizard be sure to tick "Add unit to Crystal.dproj" both times you use
the wizard.
4) Right click the project in project manager, choose "Install." You
should get a message that the components have been added to Delphi.
Now you can test it:
1) File->Close all
2) File->New->VCL Forms Application
3) Select the form generated in the designer.
4) You should see the Crystal components on the palatte.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
Jolyon Smith
> John Jacobson wrote:
> > My *hunch* is that CodeGear is running on a small budget that might
> > be great for profits, but terrible for expensive things like new
> > features.
>
> IMO, new features aren't enough.
Right - they also need to be the RIGHT features.
CodeGear are STILL banging the "look what's new since D7"... they still
don't get it... most of what is "new" is just stuff that's been
available for years, except that now they've put it "in the box".
Most of the language changes were not born of any great innovation or
insight into increasing developer productivity, they are there to ensure
compatability with Delphi.net - the language that in recent years HAS
received the majority of attention.
> A new platform is required to make a
> real statement in the development landscape: .NET and Java.
ho-hum... .NET is not a platform, it's a framework. .NET runs on
Windows - Windows is the platform.
.NET is the new MFC, not the new OS
Java is slightly different of course, and despite the distracting
similarities is a completely different animal than .NET. There is no
"Delphi (as in "Object Pascal", not "IDE") for Java" for example.
(used as an illustration of the difference, not as the criteria that
establishes the difference - Java is a language and a runtime and a
framework and is widely supported on a vast array of different hardware
and OSes, .net is just a runtime and a framework that runs on Windows).
(Ok, there's Mono, but essentially Mono is to .NET as WINE is to Win32)
> Agreed. Beyond that, IMO, Delphi being Windows-only and primarily
> focused on rich GUIs is a non starter in the internet-enabled world.
In an internet _obsessed_ world, being the only true performance RAD
tool that still recognises and supports the need to create desktop apps
is a HUGE and POSITIVE differentiator.
Again, the internet is NOT the platform - it's just a medium for
communication, polluted by a plethora of protocols, most of which get
co-opted into inappropriate use by developers enamoured with the latest
buzz-tech and less interested in making things actually work well.
> IMO, this is a double edged sword. The only reason why anyone cares
> about CodeGear is their Borland legacy.
That may be the only reason they _know_ of CodeGear, I'm not so sure it
brings with it any particular fondness - anymore.
:)
--
JS
TWorld.Create.Free;
Jolyon Smith
> The next release of Delphi will probably be titled Titanic, so you might
> need that dolphin ;-)
It's called "Commodore".....
I used to envy my mates who had C64s, then I got myself an Amiga.... and
now....
nuff said?
;)
--
JS
TWorld.Create.Free;
Tony Bryer
> D2007 was for the most
> part just a bug fix for D2006 (which is a trend that seems
> increasingly common in the software industry by the way).
Perhaps my needs are too modest - we produce relatively
unsophisticated shrink wrap desktop apps - but I would much rather
have this than a brand new look with brand new bugs (OK D2007 came
with at least one brand new bug - since fixed - that bit me). I am
more than pleased with D2007 especially since I bought Marco Cantu's
book and started realising all the new stuff I'd missed.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' www.sda.co.uk
Brion L. Webster
>In the past year, what has happened with Delphi? D2007 was a bug fix, for
>the most part. I have long had a wishlist of what I would love to see in
>Delphi (which I won't repeat here because Google has it stored for
>posterity) and nothing on that wishlist has materialized. In fact, I don't
>see much difference between Delphi's current management and the way it was
>managed before CodeGear, when it comes to practical stuff I can use in my
>native Win32 development.
>
>What does the future hold for Delphi and native Win32 development at
>CodeGear? I sure don't know, and nor does anyone else. Anyone that says
>they do know is lying. I'll be watching them, and if they produce
>something compelling that I can use for my large Delphi code base for my
>newsreader I may upgrade.
It's funny, I posted my "abandoned bugs in Win32 areas" comment on a QC
thread way before I read this.
Good luck, John, and may you suffer less aches, and enjoy more rest, as
you tinker away in the future.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
Brian Moelk
> Right - they also need to be the RIGHT features.
That too.
> ho-hum... .NET is not a platform, it's a framework. .NET runs on
> Windows - Windows is the platform.
.NET is much more of a platform than the VCL. Call it whatever you want
"framework", "platform", etc., the bottom line is that there needs to be
something compelling in the offering to compete against Java and .NET.
> In an internet _obsessed_ world, being the only true performance RAD
> tool that still recognises and supports the need to create desktop apps
> is a HUGE and POSITIVE differentiator.
It is a differentiator, but not many care. Those that have money (spend
it and invest it) care about internet development. Those that do care
about Rich GUIs are content in using standard "good enough" interfaces
with Java Swing or WinForms. The more forward looking ones are toying
around with Adobe AIR.
> Again, the internet is NOT the platform -
I cannot disagree more strongly. You better believe it's the platform;
you're not an investor in Amazon or Google are you? :)
Thomas Miller
--
Farshad
> The next release of Delphi will probably be titled Titanic,
Delphi hit many icebergs in the past and still floating, though don't think
it can survive another major hit.
JohnE
> think it can survive another major hit.
The fundamental issue is that there is no compelling reason to start a NEW
project with Delphi. Delphi is relying on Win32 to survive, and that's not
a good thing. For web development, it's ok, but there are far too many
other better/stable tools available.
CodeGear has forgotten (or maybe they simply don't know) the original allure
of Delphi. First, let's talk about the experience from the time you receive
the package, to the time you write your first line of code. In Delphi7, I
opened the quick start guide, then read portions of the manual, then wrote
some 'hello world' code. In D8, the manual was nowhere to be found - I
opened the help file, and did some quick start reading. It was clearly not
written as well as prior versions. I had no idea where to start with .Net.
The Borland NG suggested I read the .Net help. So, I did. In the end, it
was difficult to apply the MS .Net help to Delphi. Xavier Pacheco's book
was a lifesaver in that regard.
The difference between the two is clear. With D7, I didn't need to know the
intricacies of the WinAPI. With D8, I had get into the low level details of
the .Net framework, without a decent written guide to help me.
I've said it many, many times. CodeGear - hire Xavier, at any cost, to
produce a book to ship with Delphi.
John
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> The fundamental issue is that there is no compelling reason to start
> a NEW project with Delphi.
FWIW, we're about to start a new Delphi for .NET project. Two of the
compelling reasons being that we already know Delphi very well, and
that we can use our existing codebase.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
WillR
Or whoever...
I was going to make this suggestion in a new thread, but you have done
an excellent job and explained the case concisely and well.
IMO it would be an excellent idea for Codegear to _pay_ people to write
books explaining their products -- other companies do it. Consider it
part of the marketing budget -- it will be the best money ever spent. I
would suggest a book or two on all the major products -- Interbase
included especially since many people tie IB and Delphi together.
My opinion is that it would also be worth while to pay people to write
good explanatory articles on things like Generics, dot-net etc.
I wasn't going to waste time on this thread but perhaps it's worth
adding another voice to your "cry in the wilderness"! :-)
forget the fish...
>
> John
>
>
--
Will R
PMC Consulting
Brion L. Webster
>I've said it many, many times. CodeGear - hire Xavier, at any cost, to
>produce a book to ship with Delphi.
You also have to remember that the Delphi Product Manager doesn't
personally see the value in shipping printed materials with the product.
Until that changes, I don't see much emphasis being placed from CodeGear
as a whole on printed, take away, learn at a picnic-table type
documentation.
Brion L. Webster
>JohnE wrote:
>>I've said it many, many times. CodeGear - hire Xavier, at any cost, to
>>produce a book to ship with Delphi.
>
>Or whoever...
>
>I was going to make this suggestion in a new thread, but you have done an
>excellent job and explained the case concisely and well.
>
>IMO it would be an excellent idea for Codegear to pay people to write
>books explaining their products -- other companies do it. Consider it part
>of the marketing budget -- it will be the best money ever spent. I would
>suggest a book or two on all the major products -- Interbase included
>especially since many people tie IB and Delphi together.
>
>My opinion is that it would also be worth while to pay people to write
>good explanatory articles on things like Generics, dot-net etc.
While I would dearly love to see more print format material shipped with
the product, please remember:
*Borland* and CodeGear offered cash bonuses for Developer Network
articles. They do pay people to write articles.
Then again, the follow through leaves something to be desired. The queue
seems to rarely get processed on BoreGear's side, another indication that
despite the reformat, little has really changed in the management aspect.
WillR
I think that we are discussing different things -- however related they
may appear to be. I was referring to the commissioning of a book -- a
different kettle of fish. :-)
Your summary says it all -- doesn't it? Or maybe the light is just
beginning to shine through...??????
If I knew that several good follow-on books were available for Delphi
2007 I would have bought already. (Not to mention Interbase and other
products.) Perhaps others feel the same. Currently I feel that it is a
risky investment since I would likely face long start-up times.
As for the Product Managers opinion (your other post), I consider a book
paid for (assuming $50 to $150 per book) if just once it saves me an
hour or two of work -- something people seem to forget.
Guess we are on the same wavelength here.
What's good methodology for Microsoft...
JohnE
> personally see the value in shipping printed materials with the product.
> Until that changes, I don't see much emphasis being placed from CodeGear
> as a whole on printed, take away, learn at a picnic-table type
> documentation.
I am not necessarily recommending a paper-bound book. I'd take a Xavier PDF
book on the install CD for that matter.
John
JohnE
> compelling reasons being that we already know Delphi very well, and
> that we can use our existing codebase.
How large is the project?
How many members are on your team?
Any 3rd Party controls? If so, which?
I should've narrowed my original statement - there's no compelling reason
for a non-TeamB members, CodeGear employees or shareholders, to start new
projects in Delphi :-)
John
Zoren Lendry
> The fundamental issue is that there is no compelling reason to start a NEW
> project with Delphi. Delphi is relying on Win32 to survive, and that's not
> a good thing. For web development, it's ok, but there are far too many
> other better/stable tools available.
We have started several major projects in the last year in Win32, and
will do many more -- in IntraWeb. I've used VS with Asp.Net 2.0, and the
designer experience is not nearly as satisfying as using IW with visual
form inheritance, not to mention the fact that IW is a generation ahead
of frameworks like ASP.Net and RoR -- keeping out of the level of HTML
(but still letting you go there as deep as you desire).
As long as our time to market for web apps is so much better in Delphi +
IW (and Arcana & TMS), we will keep using it extensively. None of our
customers care what we use -- in fact, their eyes glaze over when we
start talking about it.
Someone has to significantly beat Delphi + IW for us to move away from it.
Loren
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> How large is the project?
Not sure as yet. Initial estimate of the work is around 6 months.
> How many members are on your team?
In total: 6 including 2 programmers to begin with.
> Any 3rd Party controls? If so, which?
None as yet. Possibly using one or more 3rd party assemblies, though.
> I should've narrowed my original statement - there's no compelling
> reason for a non-TeamB members, CodeGear employees or shareholders,
> to start new projects in Delphi :-)
FWIW, even if I wasn't in TeamB, the project would still be done with
Delphi for .NET -- I'm not the only person involved in the project, and
the others are not TeamB members.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Brian Moelk
> You also have to remember that the Delphi Product Manager doesn't
> personally see the value in shipping printed materials with the
> product.
I agree with Nick on this one.
> Until that changes, I don't see much emphasis being placed
> from CodeGear as a whole on printed, take away, learn at a picnic-table
> type documentation.
I do think CodeGear should encourage as many books as they can but I
don't think they need to ship one themselves.
For anything CodeGear publishes, a print on demand/lulu type option is
perfectly adequate. Those that want a printed book can get one, those
that don't, don't have to pay extra and throw out wasted paper.
Edmund
> "Dennis Landi" <na...@nada.com> wrote in message
> news:474990cd$2...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> "John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
>> news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>>> I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has nothing
>>> to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
>>>
>>> I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to
>>> move on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the
>>> relevance of these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
>>>
>> Is there a paticular thread I missed? (I've been on holiday)
>
> I've gotten tired of the humorless and insulting way CodeGear and TeamB
> comport themselves, both in these newsgroups, and in the way they have
To be fair, I don't think *all* CG & TeamB members have been that way.
Though it does seem sudden with the departure of quite a few
vocal members of the Delphi community.
> managed Delphi. The emperor has no clothes and I'm not interested in helping
> him wax the dolphin.
I didn't know:
1) The emperor had no clothes on.
2) He had a dolphin.
3) His dolphin needed waxing.
Edmund
Edmund
>> Enough of what?
>
> Too many excuses for bad design and leadership ideas.
>
And I thought it was enough of the fish.
Edmund
Edmund
> ...there is none so blind as those who will not see.
Is this from a song?
>
> Personally I found the spirit was already gone way back in the D8
> release days, and the attitude was already that of denial.
Denial of what?
Edmund
Edmund
While I won't argue your merits since I tend to agree with you, the
thing is though, "playing in MS's hand..." isn't quite 'true'. I
believe the factor is that the market is quite (for lack of a better
word) engrossed in .NET programming and thusly it would be less of
an advantage (in Borland's) view to stay on the sidelines watching
the party. They went knee deep into it, which is quite understandable.
Unfortunately, it further hinders Borland's ability to 'innovate'
anything while under the proverbial MS umbrella that is the .NET
framework. Now, they can't break away from the .NET platform
even if they want to. Why? The IDE is already very much a .NET IDE
such that removing the .NET part would essentially (probably)
require a rewrite(?)[I admit this is speculation and any correction
very much appreciated.]
For those doing .NET programming, it's a definite benefit to use
a familiar language (rather than use C# or whatever).
As for those 'tactical' mistakes, well, that would be an issue
for them to figure out. I've already mentioned about the
docs (which they're fixing, as we've been told and like I
expected, D2007 wasn't much of a doc-fix judging from the
complaints). Do customers really have to pay to get
BDS2006's pathetic docs to be fixed? Guess what? YES.
CG seriously needs to rethink their internal workings, because
the problems of the products reflect the need for some changes
within the organization, be it hiring more people or getting
processes redone. Is CG really that big such that they can
handle JBuilder, RAD2007, D4PHP, 3rdRail(or whatever it is
called)? [The last two are interesting concepts, but really
shouldn't have been taken as priorities over fixing CG's
core products.]
That's my $0.02. I'm still doing Win32. I'm using D7 and
BDS2006. I will probably upgrade to RAD2007 (provided at least
someone responds to my Upgrade question in b.p.d.u).
Edmund
Edmund
Craig
> We have started several major projects in the last year in Win32, and
> will do many more -- in IntraWeb. I've used VS with Asp.Net 2.0, and the
> designer experience is not nearly as satisfying as using IW with visual
> form inheritance, not to mention the fact that IW is a generation ahead
> of frameworks like ASP.Net and RoR -- keeping out of the level of HTML
> (but still letting you go there as deep as you desire).
>
I would be surprised if an experienced developer wasn't as efficient
with ASP.NET or RoR as IW, especially when developing web 'sites' as
opposed to web 'applications'. Web sites require heavy html and css
knowledge to be done correctly. But if you have the knowledge they can
be done very quickly.
One major problem I have with IW is trying to get developers. My
previous company that used Delphi for their main application couldn't
find people who wanted to do work for them. Eventually they had to
sponsor people from overseas to do the job. IW is an even smaller
market than that. I would be surprised if there were even 100
experienced IW developers in Melbourne Australia (where I'm from), so
trying to hire one is a pretty tough ask. No matter how good it may be
for certain tasks, Delphi just has the legacy smell about it to most
developers. In human years I would put Delphi at around 60. Still
plenty of life in it, just not many kids on the way.
Craig.
I.P. Nichols
Authors don't write books when there is little or no buzz/hype and
unfortunately Delphi no longer creates market buzz/hype, the last was when
CodeGear announced the Turbo edition but that soon dissipated and allowed to
languish. Remember the Simon & Garfunkel chorus, "Slip sliding away, slip
sliding away You know the nearer your destination, the more you slip sliding
away."
David Erbas-White
>
> Authors don't write books when there is little or no buzz/hype and
> unfortunately Delphi no longer creates market buzz/hype, the last was
> when CodeGear announced the Turbo edition but that soon dissipated and
> allowed to languish. Remember the Simon & Garfunkel chorus, "Slip
> sliding away, slip sliding away You know the nearer your destination,
> the more you slip sliding away."
That wasn't Simon & Garfunkel, that was Paul Simon after he went solo...
David Erbas-White
JohnE
> IW (and Arcana & TMS), we will keep using it extensively. None of our
> customers care what we use -- in fact, their eyes glaze over when we start
> talking about it.
So, Delphi+IW is a good choice when customers don't know any better?
Are your projects large or small?
John
"Zoren Lendry" <zoren...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:474cda13$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> JohnE wrote:
>> The fundamental issue is that there is no compelling reason to start a
>> NEW project with Delphi. Delphi is relying on Win32 to survive, and
>> that's not a good thing. For web development, it's ok, but there are far
>> too many other better/stable tools available.
>
> We have started several major projects in the last year in Win32, and will
> do many more -- in IntraWeb. I've used VS with Asp.Net 2.0, and the
> designer experience is not nearly as satisfying as using IW with visual
> form inheritance, not to mention the fact that IW is a generation ahead of
> frameworks like ASP.Net and RoR -- keeping out of the level of HTML (but
> still letting you go there as deep as you desire).
>
>
Zoren Lendry
> So, Delphi+IW is a good choice when customers don't know any better?
I did not mean to insinuate that the Delphi/IW web apps are lower
quantity -- simply that marketing hype often leads people to ask for
things that are not in their interest, whether it is a prescription drug
for a medicalized normal human condition, or a software platform.
If we were to lose one sale every two or three years because of platform
choice, it would be made up many times over by the quickness to market
and the ability to quickly adapt to custom requirements.
> Are your projects large or small?
Our apps center around a single database with over 500 tables, with 4
distinct Win32 apps that can be licensed in any combination, as well as
several IW projects ranging from small to hundreds of app pages. The IW
apps are increasingly infused with Ajax functionality. We also use
RemObjects DataAbstract to create middle tiers with amazing flexibility
in choice of channels/protocols, multiple databases on the backend, etc.
We have created OPF-like frameworks to inject a bit of XML in the data
tables in DataAbstract, which then creates IW app pages on the fly to
take care of the more mundane maintenance screens. All in all it's an
extremely productive environment to develop in, and the "weblications"
are fast, scalable, attractive -- and end-users love to use them. I
simply haven't come across any other combination of tools to come
anywhere close to it.
Loren
I.P. Nichols
Solo you say, then who the hell is that second guy in this video? ;-)
David Erbas-White
Yes, it's his solo song.
Released on the album "Still Crazy After All These Years" by Paul Simon
in 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_Crazy_After_All_These_Years
Simon and Garfunkel did several concerts together after they went their
separate ways, and obviously this video is from one of those concerts.
Since Garfunkel (aka Nately) had not much of a musical career after the
split, it makes sense that he would 'join' Paul in singing some of
Paul's solo songs when they got together for the occasional concert.
And it appears that this forum is now the
borland.public.delphi.non-technical.paulsimon forum -- with this thread,
and the previous one regarding "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes"... <G>
David Erbas-White
Iv
But for what you monopolize people's attention with your private drama?
"John Jacobson" <jake@j[nospam]snewsreader.com> wrote in message
news:4748...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>I will probably be leaving these newsgroups in a few days. It has nothing
>to do with Delphi, which I love. It has to do with TeamB and CodeGear.
>
> I have enjoyed the time I have spent here, but it is probably time to move
> on. I will soon not be using Delphi in my career anyway, so the relevance
> of these newsgroups to my life is decreasing.
>
> --
> John M. Jacobson
> Jake's Blog on Delphi and Programming: http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/
>
>
Olivier Pons
> ;)
>
I wish I could both go back to Amiga's days and have an Assembly book...
Speedball III is about to be released. Wow.
--
Olivier Pons
http://olivier.pons.free.fr/
Eric Grange
> word) engrossed in .NET programming
It is nowadays, but wasn't really back then (in the years between D7 and
D8).
IMO most of it boils down to MS having had no competition worthy of the
name in that area (Borland didn't do any significant development for
either Delphi, C++ or Java, and merely concentrated on milking those
cows rather than forging ahead). The only other dev tools competition
could have come from Sun & Java, but Sun was too busy considering
licensing details, and Java devs were busy forking libraries like...
little forking busy bees.
There is an awful lot of features that could have been added to the
Delphi language, there were many long overdue features that could have
been added to the VCL, there could have been many new and improved RTL
classes/interfaces based on modernized designs, etc.
There is currently nothing that .Net can offer that Borland couldn't
have been offering via Delphi, had they wished it, and had they invested
in their dev tools.
The situation would probably be quite different if Delphi had kept
evolving at the same rate after D5 that it did between D1 and D5...
I certainly perceived D8 as Borland throwing the towel and attempting to
offer a bridge to .Net and C#, and I know for sure I'm not the only one.
Kylix (RIP) gave a very different message (even if you didn't need it),
and a Delphi64 would have given a very different message too.
But talking of Unicode and 64bit support via Delphi.Net first? Who do
they think they were kidding? That was like hanging a big bright neon
sign with the words "time to jump ship people".
> Now, they can't break away from the .NET platform even if they want to.
Indeed, and it's probably also costing them an inordinate amount of
energy merely to keep things in working order (judging by the IDE bugs,
the issues that popup after MS service packs, the issues in the
installer & patches, etc.)
> For those doing .NET programming, it's a definite benefit to use
> a familiar language (rather than use C# or whatever).
I'm not so sure about that. All exemples, docs, support groups, peers,
etc. are not using that language (and by language, I'm not just
referring to the syntax, but also the classes to use, the naming
conventions, etc.)
Eric
I.P. Nichols
And I was making a point about Delphi with the words of the chorus when you
came along and nitpicked and now giving a boring laborious school-boy
lecture to justify your craptacular nitpicking , are you understudying Rudy?
;-)
Eric Grange
Yep, that was a missed opportunity...
Eric
Eric Grange
> don't get it... most of what is "new" is just stuff that's been
> available for years, except that now they've put it "in the box".
Much agreed. And third-party/open-source components can still procide
you with much more functionality under D7 that what you get out of the
box in BDS2007.
Eric
Olivier Pons
> Good-bye!
>
> But for what you monopolize people's attention with your private drama?
I'm just guessing that he really likes Delphi, it's still the best RAD
today, *but* the spirit has changed : Delphi newsgroup was the place to go
to get information and get some fresh air. Nowadays, the way questions and
answers are done in the newsgroup are often mean, often too mean, not to say
aggressive whereas the same stuff could have been asked/answer in many other
nicer ways.
I've not helped that much but I clearly understand him because I'm about to
do that, too : leaving Delphi.
It's so sad, because the 2007 (with help update) version is about to be as
good as the Delphi 7 one. But the fact is :
- they go M$ way (ie .Net way) ;
- they don't want to go Linux ;
- the major mistake IMHO is : they don't go Internet.
Internet is the future. Not M$.
45 millions of sites are running with Apache/MySQL.
They did DelphiPhp but we have to learn Php programming ! How about those
years spent learning Pascal Object ?
Anyway if one day I can :
- either program in Delphi, compile and then generate a ".so" file that I
can link with Apache under Linux ;
- or make a cross-platform program ;
- or make a full web-site Pascal and MVC-oriented with an interpreter like
Php but for Pascal Object (both Windows and Linux platform) ;
I swear I'll be willing to pay a *lot* for a brand new Delphi license.
Otherwise I'll keep up with D2007.
IanH
> The only other dev
> tools competition could have come from Sun & Java, but Sun was too
> busy considering licensing details, and Java devs were busy forking
> libraries like... little forking busy bees.
I like that so much, I'm going to pretend I invented it ;-)
<snip>
> The situation would probably be quite different if Delphi had kept
> evolving at the same rate after D5 that it did between D1 and D5...
Completely agreed. Nick Hodges trots out a list of language / VCL
improvements to prove that this is not the case, yet IMO the same list
actually underlines how limited the progress has been over the last 5-6
years.
> I certainly perceived D8 as Borland throwing the towel and attempting
> to offer a bridge to .Net and C#, and I know for sure I'm not the
> only one. Kylix (RIP) gave a very different message (even if you
> didn't need it), and a Delphi64 would have given a very different
> message too.
Agreed.
> But talking of Unicode and 64bit support via Delphi.Net first? Who do
> they think they were kidding? That was like hanging a big bright neon
> sign with the words "time to jump ship people".
They know it, but cannot really admit it.
> > Now, they can't break away from the .NET platform even if they want
> > to.
>
> Indeed, and it's probably also costing them an inordinate amount of
> energy merely to keep things in working order (judging by the IDE
> bugs, the issues that popup after MS service packs, the issues in the
> installer & patches, etc.)
>
> > For those doing .NET programming, it's a definite benefit to use
> > a familiar language (rather than use C# or whatever).
>
> I'm not so sure about that. All exemples, docs, support groups,
> peers, etc. are not using that language (and by language, I'm not
> just referring to the syntax, but also the classes to use, the naming
> conventions, etc.)
The big learning curve for me would be the framework, not the language.
Learning the framework would be much simpler using it's own "default"
language. Therefore any .NET programming for me would be in C#.
Besides, I don't think I'd trust CodeGear docs to fully explain all the
details of the .NET environment as it relates to Delphi ;-)
The only reason to use Delphi for .NET is to preserve an existing code
base into the future (after porting all the bits that need to be
changed, naturally). The multi-language capability of .NET actually
encourages you at that point to start replacing elements of your code
with new C#, without needing to start from scratch.
I agree with your preception that D8 was the point at which Borland
threw in the towel, because ISTM that they actually wanted to encourage
this migration away from Delphi, while they shifted emphasis to the
ridiculous ALM strategy. Backtracking to Win32-only preserves the
lock-in to CodeGear tools. I volunteered for this lock-in when Delphi
was the stand-out choice of dev tool, but they have lost their edge:
they are now playing catch-up to MS.
Ian
IanH
> Since Garfunkel (aka Nately) had not much of a musical
> career after the split, it makes sense that he would 'join' Paul in
> singing some of Paul's solo songs when they got together for the
> occasional concert.
Surely you did not mean to forget the magnificent triumph of "Bright
Eyes" ;-)
Reminds me of the old sign at the butcher's shop at the time:
"Watership Down: You've read the book, You've heard the song, Now eat
the pie".
Cheers
Ian
Iv
for me Delphi is the number one :) If I cannot do something with Delphi, I
will do it with something other. This is not a reason, I to leave my
favorite tool.
For this newsgroup - I have few private thinks :) Because as i see, It is
named "non-technical", I assume that I cannot find something urgent and
importantly, except some jokes, and to see how people thinks about problems
and entertainment.
For me it is normal Delphi to go in MS way. What? Because these that running
Apache/MySql/Php newer will paid for software. I use Delphi 6 currently (and
my first meeting with Borland was in the years of Turbo Pascal and Paradox
for Win). And I can to say, that I can do everything with Delphi 6, that is
related to desktop/server/internet projects :) .
And CodeGear/Borland (and myself) is not a "CHARITY school". The main
motif of investors is profits/return. Or maybe I'm wrong?
Yes, I'm informed about the latest, modern developments, etc. But when I
can, I escape it..
When something that "should work in solid way", 7x24x365xYYYYYY :) I do
not use .Net, XML's, etc.. For what I should, where is reason I to
implement, for example XML transfer of data, and to roll
<blah_blah>1</blah_blah><blah_blah_blah>2</blah_blah_blah>, when I can just
send foo#1#2 to server? Yes, I will spend some extra time for programming,
but "programming" is entertainments :)
Best regards,
Iv.
P.S.
Do not forget- the life is entertainment!
"Olivier Pons" <olivier.dot.pons...@ignore.this.fr> wrote in
message news:474d...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Mike Orriss
> Our apps center around a single database with over 500 tables, with 4
> distinct Win32 apps that can be licensed in any combination, as well
> as several IW projects ranging from small to hundreds of app pages.
> The IW apps are increasingly infused with Ajax functionality. We also
> use RemObjects DataAbstract to create middle tiers with amazing
> flexibility in choice of channels/protocols, multiple databases on
> the backend, etc. We have created OPF-like frameworks to inject a bit
> of XML in the data tables in DataAbstract, which then creates IW app
> pages on the fly to take care of the more mundane maintenance
> screens. All in all it's an extremely productive environment to
> develop in, and the "weblications" are fast, scalable, attractive --
> and end-users love to use them. I simply haven't come across any
> other combination of tools to come anywhere close to it.
Nice :)
--
Mike Orriss
General Projects Manager
RemObjects Software
www.remobjects.com
Brian Moelk
> I
> simply haven't come across any other combination of tools to come
> anywhere close to it.
For web applications, I have: Ruby.
I like Delphi, Intraweb and RemObjects; I use them extensively. But
being Windows only is a killer for web/server applications.
IMO, managing a build environment is more difficult with Delphi than it
is with Ruby. Dealing with activation is more of a PITA than it will
ever be with Ruby. Integrating third party javascript libraries like
extjs or jquery is far easier with Ruby. The list goes on and on...
Delphi stuff is a different paradigm than Ruby web frameworks like Rails
or Merb, but there are tools/frameworks that are just as productive and
certainly more open if one invests in learning them.
Don Strenczewilk
news:474cedc0$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> As for those 'tactical' mistakes, well, that would be an issue
> for them to figure out. I've already mentioned about the
> docs (which they're fixing, as we've been told and like I
> expected, D2007 wasn't much of a doc-fix judging from the
> complaints). Do customers really have to pay to get
> BDS2006's pathetic docs to be fixed? Guess what? YES.
>
The docs/help have been by far my biggest problem with Delphi, and many of
us have harped on that problem for what seems like years. It can be argued
that the compiler has not had enough improvements over the past 5 years, but
it would be difficult to find anyone who can argue that the that the
quality and content of the help system hasn't decreased.
Olivier Pons
> Apache/MySql/Php newer will paid for software.
Wrong. Wrong for my case. If I tell my boss that I can develop a site with
Delphi in two days, just imagine programming with Delphi2007 and generate
php files or whatever but with Delphi itself *and* Pascal programming, my
boss would make a big profit. Whereas I still have to swap between my php
files, and my program written in Delphi.
> I use Delphi 6 currently (and
> my first meeting with Borland was in the years of Turbo Pascal and Paradox
> for Win). And I can to say, that I can do everything with Delphi 6, that is
> related to desktop/server/internet projects :) .
Not me.
If you want real stability, you have to go Linux.
If you want to be safe, you have to go Linux.
Thus you can't use Delphi. If you want your server to handle thousands of
clients a days, you'd better generate something that answers quickly.
If you have your own Linux-hand-compiled kernel that is 40 % faster than any
distros, you want to stay Linux.
> And CodeGear/Borland (and myself) is not a "CHARITY school". The main
> motif of investors is profits/return. Or maybe I'm wrong?
I'm very well paid thanks to Delphi first, but I'll get far more money with
other tools that are up-to-date.
One of the best direction I'd suggest Delphi is to generate 'automatigally'
a module for Apache/Linux and we just have to restart the server to test it.
I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be that hard. They already know how to make
compilers very, very well, and they know a bit of Linux :)
> Yes, I'm informed about the latest, modern developments, etc. But when I
> can, I escape it..
> When something that "should work in solid way", 7x24x365xYYYYYY :) I do
> not use .Net, XML's, etc.. For what I should, where is reason I to
> implement, for example XML transfer of data, and to roll
> <blah_blah>1</blah_blah><blah_blah_blah>2</blah_blah_blah>, when I can just
> send foo#1#2 to server? Yes, I will spend some extra time for programming,
> but "programming" is entertainments :)
I agree with you. That's exactly what I do between 21h00 and 2h00 every day :)
Steve Thackery
I think this oversimplifies things. This is just my opinion, but whilst I
believe Internet-hosted applications will grow tremendously in the coming
years, they will COMPLEMENT rather than replace traditional applications
running on top of the OS in your computer.
I truly believe that there will be plenty of circumstances where it is
simply better to work using that traditional model - the program loaded off
your own hard disk, running on your own processor, storing data back on to
your own hard disk. So does Microsoft - they are NOT abandoning the
traditional OS model for the foreseeable future.
If you believe that desktop-hosted applications have a long future, as I do,
then there is obviously a long future for RAD tools targeted at producing
Win32 (and Win64) apps, and indeed .Net desktop apps.
This begs some questions immediately: are .Net desktop apps automatically
better than Win32 apps? Emphatically not: .Net runs on top of Win32, so
anything .Net can do, you can do programmatically with Win32. Further,
there are generally more processing and memory overheads with .Net
applications, which may or may be significant.
There is no sign whatsoever that Win32 is going to disappear in the
foreseeable future, especially as .Net runs on it. So Win32 (and Win64) is,
in my opinion, a very viable platform to target.
Delphi is in the remarkable position of being the *only* viable player in
the Win32 development arena (C++ in Visual Studio is NO competition). This
is an astonishing gift in marketing terms. They should forget playing
catch-up and also-ran in the .Net world, and instead announce at the top of
their voices their Unique Selling Point:
"Win32 applications are fast, light, powerful and future-proof*, and Delphi
is the best RAD for Win32 by light years. Develop the leanest, slickest
desktop applications in double quick time using Delphi."
(*Yes, seriously: I believe Win32 is here forever, even if it eventually
ends up as some virtual machine black box in a distant future OS. There is
just too much W32 software out there to lose it.)
No product lasts forever, but I genuinely believe that CodeGear could
prosper if it stopped trying to be all things to all people, and instead
focused on what it does best: Win32 (and eventually Win64) application
development.
Yes, Win32/64 development is a smaller target than the "all things to all
people" target, but the latter is just too big for CodeGear to aim for.
They have over-reached themselves and are struggling as a result.
By operating in a smaller arena, but excelling in it (and demonstrating
through marketing that the Win32/64 arena is actually a *very important and
valuable* arena), they will do better. I am convinced of it.
SteveT
Daniel Rail
news:MPG.21b73eaab...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Java is slightly different of course, and despite the distracting
> similarities is a completely different animal than .NET. There is no
> "Delphi (as in "Object Pascal", not "IDE") for Java" for example.
>
But, there was R&D and some level of discussion about it, back when
Helsjberg was still with Borland. I think it was back at the time of Delphi
2, so I don't even know if a reference could still be found. And, you had
Chuck that was starting to play with the idea of a new programming language
that looked more like plain english, than algorithms(he made mention of it
at BorCon 2002, he named the language Charlotte).
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Rail
Senior Software Developer
ACCRA Solutions Inc.(www.accra.ca)
ACCRA Med Software Inc.(www.filopto.com)
JohnE
server? or are you using ISAPI modules? Or, do they offer other methods
these days?
John
Brian Moelk
We deploy stand-alone IW servers.
Brian Moelk
> I
> believe the factor is that the market is quite (for lack of a better
> an advantage (in Borland's) view to stay on the sidelines watching
> the party. They went knee deep into it, which is quite understandable.
I think Borland and Delphi needs a .NET story of some kind, but it has
to be something that *adds* to their core strength, not
replaces/supplants it.
I'm not so sure the market is engrossed with .NET any more than it was
engrossed with Windows development. If anything, I think MS' grip on
the overall development landscape has loosened as .NET has matured
rather than tightened.
> Unfortunately, it further hinders Borland's ability to 'innovate'
> anything while under the proverbial MS umbrella that is the .NET
> framework.
Agreed 100%. MS is also moving .NET forward at a very fast pace, the
breadth and depth of which is impossible for CodeGear to match.
> Now, they can't break away from the .NET platform
> even if they want to. Why? The IDE is already very much a .NET IDE
> such that removing the .NET part would essentially (probably)
> require a rewrite(?)[I admit this is speculation and any correction
> very much appreciated.]
IMO, that's not the reason why they can't break away from .NET. The IDE
AFAIK, has only a few parts that are .NET: refactoring, together and ECO.
Refactoring and Together are easy enough to replace if CodeGear is
willing to do so: Call up Gerrit at ModelMaker, cut a deal.
ECO is a more complicated situation. However there has been such a
consistent, persistent and strong demand for ECO-like functionality on
Win32, CodeGear continues to be foolish enough to ignore allocating
serious R&D resources to that end.
IOW, I don't believe the IDE is what's stopping them from breaking from
.NET. Right now, the biggest thing stopping them is their ego/pride and
fear of writing off their significant investment in .NET R&D.
I suspect they have some "big" or influential customers that are using
Delphi for .NET and they aren't willing to accept that there is no
perceived tangible/sustainable competitive advantage Delphi for .NET
offers over MS' .NET offerings. This perception has been upheld by the
Delphi communities thought leaders and third party vendors (guys from
AToZed, DevExpress, RemObjects, etc.)
I don't think they should break away 100% from .NET. What they need to
do, is support .NET differently than they have been doing.
> For those doing .NET programming, it's a definite benefit to use
> a familiar language (rather than use C# or whatever).
I'm with Ian on this one: it's the framework not the language. IMO, if
one's heart is really set on a Pascal flavored .NET, Delphi for .NET
isn't the best choice anyway.
Besides, measuring "benefit" is never definite. What criteria are you
using: Benefit to my resume? Benefit of seamless productivity? Benefit
of .NET runtime performance? Benefit of .NET/Win32 code compatibility?
ISTM, Delphi for .NET isn't very beneficial to my resume. C# is far better.
> Is CG really that big such that they can
> handle JBuilder, RAD2007, D4PHP, 3rdRail(or whatever it is
> called)? [The last two are interesting concepts, but really
> shouldn't have been taken as priorities over fixing CG's
> core products.]
I think they are big enough; new products are necessary to grow the
business. The issue is execution.
I think CodeGear is executing much better than they have been, but I
fear in Delphi's case it's too little too late.
The overall question one has to ask is if they're executing as well as
(or better than) companies like MS, Apple, ActiveState or even 37
signals? Are they delivering a more compelling IDE than Sun has with
Netbeans (compelling enough to pay for)? Is the PHP market ready for
(or even wants) a commercial IDE and RAD methodology?
Brian Moelk
> I think this oversimplifies things. This is just my opinion, but whilst
> I believe Internet-hosted applications will grow tremendously in the
> coming years, they will COMPLEMENT rather than replace traditional
> applications running on top of the OS in your computer.
IMO, internet applications have and will continue to replace quite a few
of them. Email and office applications can been replaced for smaller
corporations and I believe we'll see that trend continue.
> I truly believe that there will be plenty of circumstances where it is
> simply better to work using that traditional model - the program loaded
> off your own hard disk, running on your own processor, storing data back
> on to your own hard disk. So does Microsoft - they are NOT abandoning
> the traditional OS model for the foreseeable future.
IMO, the future here is not in traditional desktop model, but rather the
USB/Portable one. The registry, COM and program "installations" are
conceptual dinosaurs. There are no real technical and very few business
reasons not to treat PC's as generic "host" systems for applications
that each person carries around with them. I have run my
email/newsreader off a USB drive for a long time now and will never go
back to an installed email client.
Delphi is a very good tool to support this kind of development for
Windows; if they add OSX support, IMO, it would be ideal.
Zoren Lendry
> I haven't use IW in a long time. Are you deploying with the compiled IW
> server? or are you using ISAPI modules?
Stand-alone for debugging, then as a windows service.
Loren
Farshad
"JohnE"
> The fundamental issue is that there is no compelling reason to start a NEW
> project with Delphi. Delphi is relying on Win32 to survive, and that's
> not a good thing.
If you have a team of developers experienced in native developement I see no
problem in starting a new project in Win32. Recently, I had time to
throughly analyize Vista Premium pre loaded in my new notebook. The only
thing that I can say is that Windows Vista is not much different than XP
except it has a new make up , some new security features plus many
major/minor enhancements. The underlying OS engine in Vista is pure native
NT kernel. MS has invested a lot in NT kernel and moving from it to another
kernel technology won't happen overnight, so I can say that Win32/64 native
kernel will stay here for a longer time than we expect.
>For web development, it's ok, but there are far too many other
>better/stable tools available.
Well, web developement is not the primary goal of using Delphi.
> CodeGear has forgotten (or maybe they simply don't know) the original
> allure of Delphi. First, let's talk about the experience from the time
> you receive the package, to the time you write your first line of code.
> In Delphi7, I opened the quick start guide, then read portions of the
> manual, then wrote some 'hello world' code. In D8, the manual was nowhere
> to be found - I opened the help file, and did some quick start reading.
> It was clearly not written as well as prior versions. I had no idea where
> to start with .Net. The Borland NG suggested I read the .Net help. So, I
> did. In the end, it was difficult to apply the MS .Net help to Delphi.
> Xavier Pacheco's book was a lifesaver in that regard.
I agree. D8 was the end of "F1" key and no other subsequent release could
bring the functionality/quality in D7 help back.
Gil
>Olivier Pons wrote in message
> Wrong. Wrong for my case. If I tell my boss that I can develop a site with
> Delphi in two days, just imagine programming with Delphi2007 and generate
> php files or whatever but with Delphi itself *and* Pascal programming, my
> boss would make a big profit. Whereas I still have to swap between my php
> files, and my program written in Delphi.
>
Hi Oliver,
I was working in a small idea last year to create a Code Generator using
Delphi syntax as the scripting language to create a single project and
generate the necessary code for C/C++, PHP or any other language.
I hope I have time next year to develop this idea and try it.
JoeH
> ..so the relevance of
But, but.. where will you find so rich a pontification platform as
delphi nontech ??
:)
JoeH