D2006 hits the UK
John Howe <john
A very wet UPS man delivered D2006 a couple of hours ago, up and
running and looking good.
Weird, it seems to have hi the UK B4 the U.S.A
Regards
John Howe
http://www.atobviac.com
Sebastian Ledesma [Solidyne Labs]
Congratss!!
Sebastian
"John Howe @atobviac.com>" <john <noSpam> escribió en el mensaje
news:VA.0000001...@dial.pipex.com...
Venkatesh VT
Congrats!I hope I get my Delphi Architect soon in India since it gets shipped from Singapore
Venkatesh
David Perkins
> running and looking good.
I'm not amused.
David
BCB2006 on pre-order. ETA mid-January
Liz
> A very wet UPS man delivered D2006 a couple of hours ago, up and
> running and looking good.
Other than huge grats etc.. I meant to ask.
Which version did you get?? pro?
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
Iman L Crawford
@dial.pipex.com:
> Weird, it seems to have hi the UK B4 the U.S.A
Hey! You got my copy.
--
Iman
Liz
> A very wet UPS man delivered D2006 a couple of hours ago, up and
> running and looking good.
WOW
grats!
Brian (UK)
Just received email from Borland stating shipped today. So here tomorrow
then. Enterprise ver. UK again...
John Howe
Up-Downgraded from D2005 Architect to D2006 Enterprise.
Did not use any of the Architect stuff from D2005, come to think of it
did not use D2005, could not get it stable enough<G>
Based on the last couple of hours, looks like D7 might, after a number
of years of valiant service, be putting it's boots up for a while.
Do you know something I'm gonna miss that old war horse...
Liz
> Do you know something I'm gonna miss that old war horse...
Its like an old jumper, you love it, despite a few holes.. and a new
one being equally warm and smarter, its just not the old one
Peter Zolja
> running and looking good.
Impressions?
John Howe
Only been going a few hours, still frantically rebuilding third party
components. Has not hung yet and seems far more responsive than 2005
was.
Need to build a few more libraries yet before hitting it with a big
app, then we shall see...
Peter Zolja
> components. Has not hung yet and seems far more responsive than 2005
> was.
Cool, thanks... keep us posted.
tony
Did you order the Pro version by chance?
--
John Howe
No, I Up-Downgraded from D2005 Architect to D2006 Enterprise
Rgds
John Howe
http://www.atobviac.com
John Jacobson
<438f...@newsgroups.borland.com>
> > A very wet UPS man delivered D2006 a couple of hours ago, up and
> > running and looking good.
>
> I'm not amused.
Given how expensive it is, I suppose my wife wouldn't be too happy if I bought
D2006 before I landed my next gig. Rats.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 1.0.4.1765
Liz
> Given how expensive it is, I suppose my wife wouldn't be too happy if
> I bought D2006 before I landed my next gig. Rats.
:((
bummer
Colin Wilson
--
Colin - Author of XanaNews
Ping Kam
receive it. I went out for lunch, came back and my D2006E was sitting on my
desk.
Now I need to cut another VM for it.
Ping Kam
"John Howe @atobviac.com>" <john <noSpam> wrote in message
news:VA.0000001...@dial.pipex.com...
Ingvar Anderberg
"John Jacobson" skrev i meddelandet
>> I'm not amused.
>
> Given how expensive it is, I suppose my wife wouldn't be too happy if I bought
> D2006 before I landed my next gig. Rats.
>
can't you also buy something for her, a flower perhaps :)
Liz
> Installing mine now.... :)
Wow!! lucky you!
Liz
> can't you also buy something for her, a flower perhaps :)
:> code her one in delphi that grows each time she lets you spend time
coding :)
tony
> Installing mine now.... :)
Let us know what you think.
Tony
--
tony
I looked up my order today(pro) and it still says backordered :-(
At work we also downgraded from Arch to Ent with SA.
Later,
Tony
--
Max
What IDE startup times do we have now?
-Win32 personality only ?
-All personalities ?
Without 3rd party components!
Max
Liz
> -All personalities ?
31 seconds, with a 512 mb machine (eg half recommended), jcl/jvcl,
secure black box, some crud of my own, toolbar 97, toolbar 2000, tbx,
synedit, addict 3, couple of experts, castalia..
John Jacobson
<438f...@newsgroups.borland.com>
> "John Jacobson" skrev i meddelandet
>
> > D2006 before I landed my next gig. Rats.
> >
>
> can't you also buy something for her, a flower perhaps :)
Actually, the way things are looking I might not have to wait too long to get
back in the saddle again anyway. But yeah, I know the strategy of which you
speak. All men that have survived long-term relationships with women have
learned said strategy. You have to give in order to take. It is the calculus of
consent.
I just today learnt that JK is scheduled to demo D2006 here in March. I don't
know if I can wait that long.
But then, my beloved D2005 with CodeExplorer installed is so much fun to use.
That helps ease the pain. <g>
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 1.0.4.1768
Colin Wilson
>Installing mine now.... :)
It's all installed and working...
1. The startup time is way better than D2005. For second and subsequent
runs it starts up in around 14 seconds on this PC using the full 'Borland
Developer Studio 2006' icon. D2005 takes around 24 seconds. It's even
faster if you start it using the 'Delphi Win32 Only' personality icon -
around 8 seconds.
2. There's a new, funky splash screen.
3. The IDE looks terrific. Lots of little improvements like the single
'X' to close tabs, newly laid out component palette with better icons,
plus it's all so snappy compared with D2005. A little bit flickery when
switching between forms maybe, but nothing to worry about.
4. New automatic code templates are very cool. For instance you type
'for' and press the space bar, and it automatically inserts 'for I := 0 to
List.Count-1'. And they are all fully configurable too, you can make them
'manual' instead of 'auto' so that they don't drive you nuts; you can edit
them; in fact there seems to be a whole language there waiting to be
discovered. It should be easy to add templates to automatically add
proper procedure header comments like GExperts does, etc. etc.
5. Loads of new refactorings - all sorts of things. For instance there's
a 'Push Member Up' refactoring that moves a member function up ino the
parent class, with an option to make it virtual.
6. All my component libraries compiled and installed, with no crashes or
other weirdness. Even my OTA wizards. Everything just worked! Even with
the service packs D2005 was never this stable - there were always those
random AVs and things to contend with.
But so far I'm just scratching the surface. More details later. Like
there's a whole C++ personality to explore!
But a great first impression - especially the stability.
John Howe
16 seconds Win32 - A whole load of third party libs including full
DevEx etc.
35 seconds for All personalities, same libs.
But who cares about startup times, if it does not die like 2005 did
which it does not, you only have to start it once<g>
JED
>
> Who can verify some QC's with D200*6*?
OK I had a quick look...
> http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=1907
Don't have time to look at this yet
> http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=6926
Says that it is fixed but don't have D2006 installed here to check at
this moment
> http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=8503
Er, it is closed As Designed
> http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=14998
LOL. How can anyone test that when the German Personal Edition (if such
a version will exist)
> http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=20937
I am thinking this will be closed as "As Designed"
--
Compact Framework IDE support for Delphi 2005 - v1.0 Available Now
Latest information: http://www.jed-software.com/cf.htm
Release Candidate available for JED, QC - QualityCentral Win32 client
Download if from: http://www.jed-software.com
Robin
[..]
> But so far I'm just scratching the surface. More details later. Like
> there's a whole C++ personality to explore!
>
> But a great first impression - especially the stability.
>
Thanks Colin (Even if I am seething with envy!)
Keep it coming if you get time and can drag yourself away from it!
--
Robin.
<disclaimer> Not an expert </disclaimer>
Colin Wilson
>31 seconds, with a 512 mb machine
14 seconds with my AMD 64 3200 with 1Gb for the 'full' personality.
8 seconds for the 'Delphi Win32 Only' personality.
The good thing is, it's all responsive as soon as it's loaded. VS 2005
loads in less than 2 seconds. But the first time you load a project it
takes several seconds; when you click on the Toolbox tab the first time it
takes another few seconds. When you run the project the first time
there's another wait, etc.
Colin Wilson
>14 seconds with my AMD 64 3200 with 1Gb for the 'full' personality.
>
>8 seconds for the 'Delphi Win32 Only' personality.
Sorry - I should have mentioned that these are for the second and
subsequent runs. The first run after a reboot takes longer.
Colin Wilson
>Who can verify some QC's with D200*6*?
>
>http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=1907
Not reported as fixed, but the problem doesn't seem to occur any more
using the test code in the QC report. When it draws the 10 rectangles on
top of each other, they don't drift.
So - fixed!
>http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=6926
Closed as Fixed.
>http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=8503
Closed as 'As Designed'
>http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=14998
'AV when you start and quit Delphi using the Win32 personality, German
version'
I can't test this because I don't have the German version. It's not
reported as fixed, but it's the sort of thing that might well have been
fixed along the way.
>http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=20937
Yes, this still happens when converting a Delphi7 project to a Delphi 2006
one. It's simply that the default for 'Position' is now poDefaultPosOnly
instead of poDesigned, and seeing as default property values aren't saved
you see this behaviour.
IMHO(!) it's not really a problem - just something to be aware of when
converting old projects.
John Jacobson
<438f8e7f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com>
>
> It's all installed and working...
Did you compile and run Xananews from it yet?
Colin Wilson
>>It's all installed and working...
>
>Did you compile and run Xananews from it yet?
Of course - that's the first thing I tried. I haven't got the official
D2006 versions of MadExcept yet so I had to do a bit of fiddling with it,
but otherwise it all works fine.
In fact I'm using it to post this mess&Ł)Ł"$)&!"$!^&%"Ł*
Colin Wilson
>mess&Ł)Ł"$)&!"$!^&%"Ł*
;) Only kidding!
John Jacobson
> >mess&Ł)Ł"$)&!"$!^&%"Ł*
>
> ;) Only kidding!
LOL.
Seriously though, that you were able to compile Xananews that quickly/easily is
a good testament to backward compatibility in D2006.
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> > http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=8503
>
> Er, it is closed As Designed
Also check my comment, which contains the resolution comment from the
internal system.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Colin Wilson
>Seriously though, that you were able to compile Xananews that
>quickly/easily is a good testament to backward compatibility in D2006.
Actually I did have to tweak one component. It Was an
invisible-at-runtime component that hijacked the main form's messages with
SetWindowLong (... GWL_WNDPROC). It made incorrect assumptions about
creation orders of things, so it was my fault really.
Kyle A. Miller
> In fact I'm using it to post this mess&Ł)Ł"$)&!"$!^&%"Ł*
>
LOL! Static in the line eh?
John Jacobson
> Actually I did have to tweak one component. It Was an
> invisible-at-runtime component that hijacked the main form's messages with
> SetWindowLong (... GWL_WNDPROC). It made incorrect assumptions about
> creation orders of things, so it was my fault really.
That's it! I'm leaving Borland for MSFT tools! If Borland refuses to prevent
developers' own mistakes then I refuse to buy their products! They surely are
doomed. Doomed, doomed, doomed I tells ya! The sky is falling!
Not!
Jon Robertson
> crashes or other weirdness. Even my OTA wizards. Everything just
> worked! Even with the service packs D2005 was never this stable -
> there were always those random AVs and things to contend with.
Are you able to debug your MMC Plug-In framework?
BTW, I've already played with the framework and I'm using it in an
upcoming project at the office. Good stuff!
--
Jon Robertson
Borland Certified Advanced Delphi 7 Developer
MedEvolve, Inc
http://www.medevolve.com
Jon Robertson
> The good thing is, it's all responsive as soon as it's loaded. VS
> 2005 loads in less than 2 seconds. But the first time you load a
> project it takes several seconds; when you click on the Toolbox tab
> the first time it takes another few seconds. When you run the
> project the first time there's another wait, etc.
Depending on your machine, you might see some delay the first time a
framework is loaded during a session. (i.e. loading VcL or VCL.NET or
WinForms.) BDS 2006, according to what I've heard, does not load the
framework until it is needed. But once it is loaded, it stays loaded
for that session.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure Allen or someone can correct me. :-P
Eric Grange
Though I will still wait for demo and a few months before getting
my expectations too high ^_^
Eric
Ingvar Nilsen
> VS 2005 loads in less than 2 seconds. But the first time you load a
> project it takes several seconds; when you click on the Toolbox tab
> the first time it takes another few seconds. When you run the
> project the first time there's another wait, etc.
There is nothing wrong with this approach, and you are exaggerating.
As a matter of fact, I hope Borland also uses this to some extent in
BDS. Why? Because there is a lot of features you probably won't use
anyway, so why load them?
The reason VS .Net behaves like you say is probably .Net code that
compiles in the background. This is done once, and the next time the IDE
is started you should not experience this.
When this is said, we are of course all excited about the good first
impressions about BDS 2006 people have!
--
Ingvar Nilsen
http://www.ingvarius.com
Pete Goodwin
> Hi Guys,
>
> A very wet UPS man delivered D2006 a couple of hours ago, up and
> running and looking good.
>
> Weird, it seems to have hi the UK B4 the U.S.A
>
> Regards
>
> John Howe
> http://www.atobviac.com
If you use the action manager, and double click on the component, does
it hide behind the main window if you click away from it?
--
Pete Goodwin
Cheesed off Kylix, C++ Builder V6 and Delphi 2005 owner
Chema
Thanks,
Chema
Venkatesh VT
Can some one from Borland clarify whether the Delphi 2006 release is for only certain countries or through out the world.When i contacted the nearest Borland office responsible for my Architect copy, they told me that it is not released yet(where as customers have already got it in UK & Canada
Venkatesh
Ryan McGinty
VS2005 on a beefy machine doing exactly what he says...
Relaxin
Thanks
Jan Derk
> > http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=20937
>
> Yes, this still happens when converting a Delphi7 project to a Delphi
> 2006 one. It's simply that the default for 'Position' is now
> poDefaultPosOnly instead of poDesigned, and seeing as default
> property values aren't saved you see this behaviour.
>
> IMHO(!) it's not really a problem - just something to be aware of
> when converting old projects.
It's not a bug. It's a feature. ;)
But seriously, it is a very good thing that the designed is no longer
the TForm.position default.
Jan Derk
Jon Robertson
> Does it still contain TDataSet or has that been removed?
Why would TDataSet ever be removed?!?
TDataSet is definitely still there.
Jon Robertson
> The reason VS .Net behaves like you say is probably .Net code that
> compiles in the background. This is done once, and the next time the
> IDE is started you should not experience this.
And what code do you think is compiling when the IDE starts up. Surely
you don't think Visual Studio is a .NET managed application. Oh no...
It's still a Win32 app.
Other have said it and I'll repeat it. When Microsoft starts releasing
large apps that are written in .NET, I'll consider it too.
Craig
>
> And what code do you think is compiling when the IDE starts up. Surely
> you don't think Visual Studio is a .NET managed application. Oh no...
> It's still a Win32 app.
>
> Other have said it and I'll repeat it. When Microsoft starts releasing
> large apps that are written in .NET, I'll consider it too.
>
MS do have large apps written in .NET but just not the most visible ones
to the general public. Microsoft CRM is an example.
There is virtually no business case to totally rewrite something like
Word or Excel just to make it a managed app. Why throw away 20 years of
code? It has nothing to do with .NET, just plain business sense. But for
new development I think you will find MS use .NET extensively.
Craig.
Craig
>
VCL definitely still has TDataset, just as it did in Delphi 2005.
Craig
Ivo Bauer
According to Borland CZ (Czech Republic), BDS 2006 will start shipping
somewhen around Dec 09th, so from within a week. I don't have a clue
why there is such a delay involved.
--
Ivo Bauer
OZM Research, s.r.o.
________________________________________________
ModLink - MODBUS Messaging Components for Delphi
http://www.ozm.cz/ivobauer/modlink/
Andy Syms
> But seriously, it is a very good thing that the designed is no longer
> the TForm.position default.
That alone could justify upgrading from D6.
I develop in 1280 x 1024 but most of my clients are still 800 x 600.
Designing windows in the bottom right of the screen and forgetting to
change the default window position has caused problems in the past.
--
Andy Syms
Technosoft Systems Ltd
www.technosoft.co.uk
ICQ 136991871
John Howe
Tdataset is still there.
John Howe
Pre-ordered but only over last weekend.
John Howe
Eric Grange
Well, .NET doesn't seem to be all over Vista:
http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/vistaAndDotnet.htm
Vista is new development, no? Quote:
<<
Microsoft appears to have concentrated their development effort in Vista
on native code development. In contrast to PDC03LH, Vista has no
services implemented in .NET and Windows Explorer does not host the
runtime, which means that the Vista desktop shell is not based on the
.NET runtime. The only conclusion that can be made from these results is
that between PDC 2003 and the release of Vista Beta 1 Microsoft has
decided that it is better to use native code for the operating system,
than to use the .NET framework.
>>
Eric
Chema
Chema
"John Howe" <thund...@dial.pipex.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:VA.0000002...@dial.pipex.com...
David Clegg
> Tdataset is still there.
What about TObject? :-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dcl...@gmail.com
http://cc.borland.com/Author.aspx?ID=72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
http://qc.borland.com
"Well, crying isn't gonna bring him back ... unless your tears smell
like dog food. So you can either sit there crying and eating can after
can of dog food until your tears smell enough like dog food to make
your dog come back or you can go out there and find your dog." - Homer
Simpson
Jim Cooper
> Other have said it and I'll repeat it. When Microsoft starts releasing
> large apps that are written in .NET, I'll consider it too.
This hoary old chestnut again? Two points :
1. MS have released large apps written in .NET.
2. It doesn't matter, because that's a stupid way to make the decision to use it
or not. Did you decide to use Delphi because MS wrote large apps with it?
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
__________________________________________
Jim Cooper jco...@tabdee.ltd.uk
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
__________________________________________
Craig
>
> Well, .NET doesn't seem to be all over Vista:
>
> http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/vistaAndDotnet.htm
>
> Vista is new development, no? Quote:
>
I dont think anyone would argue doing system development is better in
.NET than Win32, that's not the target market. Thats like saying Delphi
is no good because the compiler is not written in C and not Delphi/Pascal.
Craig.
Craig
>
>>Tdataset is still there.
>
>
> What about TObject? :-)
>
No sorry, that ones gone!
Craig
>
>
> If you use the action manager, and double click on the component, does
> it hide behind the main window if you click away from it?
>
All delphi versions do that.
Craig.
Ryan McGinty
.NET or they are using a native access layer. If they are using the native
access layer, then it kind of negates their argument to move to .NET. They
said, "if you don't move, you are not going to have access to the latest
and greatest features of Windows."
"Most visible" could be translated as "most profitable" too thoug. CRM was
not a new product and is much larger (at least in install size) than Office.
Maybe they are testing the waters in the dev space.
Ryan
Ryan McGinty
view in D2005. The collection editors, actionlist editor, and other property
windows do NOT go behind the editor when it has focus - 3rd party tools do
though, and apparently so does the ActionManager.
Ryan
Colin Wilson
>Are you able to debug your MMC Plug-In framework?
Yes! I could never get it to work in D2005, and even in Delphi 7 it
didn't generate the typelib properly. It's all sorted in BDS 2006
--
Colin - Author of XanaNews
Eric Grange
> .NET than Win32
Actually, many, many have argued that, for a long time, including here.
If noone argues it anymore, that's a recent reversal of opinions :)
Eric
Craig
>
> "Most visible" could be translated as "most profitable" too thoug. CRM
> was not a new product and is much larger (at least in install size) than
> Office. Maybe they are testing the waters in the dev space.
>
I dont think most visible means most profitable. For example SAP or
Oracle are extremely successful products but the man on the street would
know nothing about them. Of course you could argue MS Office is more
successful, but it is probably one of the two most successful software
products ever, the other being Windows. There are a lot of invisible
products that are very successful.
Craig.
Craig
> Actually they don't. I think he is talking about it going behind the
> docked view in D2005. The collection editors, actionlist editor, and
> other property windows do NOT go behind the editor when it has focus -
> 3rd party tools do though, and apparently so does the ActionManager.
>
Maybe I misunderstood, but in Delphi 7 if I have the ActionList or any
collection editor up, and click away somewhere else in the IDE it goes
to the background.
Lurkio
>
> MS do have large apps written in .NET but just not the most visible ones
> to the general public. Microsoft CRM is an example.
Isn't Microsoft CRM pretty much /the/ example as opposed to /an/ example ? :-P
> There is virtually no business case to totally rewrite something like
> Word or Excel just to make it a managed app. Why throw away 20 years of
> code? It has nothing to do with .NET, just plain business sense.
Absolutely, 100% correct, surely no-one could disagree with that.
> But for new development I think you will find MS use .NET extensively.
Now this remains to be seen...but the evidence of .Net use in the Vista
beta's, for example, is not that compelling from what I have read...
Historically, M$ has always used one set of tools for writing its own
software whilst providing another set for the rest of us great unwashed
out here. Hell, from what I have read most of them don't even use Visual
Studio and instead have their own internal development tools (e.g. one
I've heard of is named Rascal).
As the old VB folk will be first to tell you, if they ain't using it
themselves, then it's easily disposable...
Chema
"Craig" <cra...@gmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:4390...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
>>
>>>Tdataset is still there.
>>
>>
>> What about TObject? :-)
>>
>
> No sorry, that ones gone!
Don't be sorry. It is not your fault :-)
Ryan McGinty
Not anything that generates the big bucks though (in relative Microsoft revenues).
Is it because they are afraid of performance? Do they have other issues
that they don't want to touch on something as popular as Office? Or, are
they just not doing it because 3 years, 100 programmers, and a practically
unlimited budget is not enough to port a C++ app to .NET.
> 2. It doesn't matter, because that's a stupid way to make the decision
> to use it or not. Did you decide to use Delphi because MS wrote large
> apps with it?
No but is ironic that Microsoft gives new developers practically no choice
but to use .NET exclusively, but yet they themselves don't use it exclusively.
Ryan
Craig
> Now this remains to be seen...but the evidence of .Net use in the Vista
> beta's, for example, is not that compelling from what I have read...
I dont think thats an arguement to disregard .NET however.
> Historically, M$ has always used one set of tools for writing its own
> software whilst providing another set for the rest of us great unwashed
> out here. Hell, from what I have read most of them don't even use Visual
> Studio and instead have their own internal development tools (e.g. one
> I've heard of is named Rascal).
>
I think that is definitely true in the Office and Windows teams from
what I have heard, I think most of the others probably use Visual Studio
though.
Craig.
Ryan McGinty
Ryan McGinty
now so if you have a window in front of the IDE, and you click on ANY piece
of the IDE the foreground window gets covered up. Borland changed the VCL
to allow the previously mentioned property editors to remain on top of the
IDE when opened. The ActionManager does not follow that though and for some
reason doesn't behave like the others.
Ryan
Ryan McGinty
large market share. They have been having some major issues and they are
trying to appease the market by "from scratch" developing something... This
is just what I've read about anyway. They want it to be bigger, but haven't
surpased some other offerings. It is low on the totem poll in importance
and could be scrapped if they don't find a way to make more money with it.
So, it is not the most compelling .NET success story, especially when you
have:
Office
Visio
VS
Windows
Outlook Express
BizTalk
SharePoint
SQLServer
Exchange
Money
Small Business Accounting
IIS
IE (if there was ever a better "success story" for the more secure, more
stable platform!)
etc... Any one of these products would be a good bit more impressive on
the .NET only list...
Ryan
Lurkio
Is that a nice way of saying people finally woke up and smelt the coffee? :-P
Craig
>
> Office
> Visio
> VS
> Windows
> Outlook Express
> BizTalk
> SharePoint
> SQLServer
> Exchange
> Money
> Small Business Accounting
> IIS
> IE (if there was ever a better "success story" for the more secure, more
> stable platform!)
>
> etc... Any one of these products would be a good bit more impressive on
> the .NET only list...
Yeah, but all of these are basically old apps. There is no business
sense in totally rewritting old apps when the current ones work fine.
And many of them, for example VS & SQL have parts written in .NET.
Craig.
Ryan McGinty
set of established code. I have version 1.2 and the install is like 3 CDs
(that has to be a bunch o' source code)! Visio got a total rewrite for Office
2003 and had been purchased so you know it got a major overhaul to match
the office line and it didn't take them that long... It will be interesting
to see what they did with CRM though and how it performs with the .NET parents
behind it's development.
Ryan
Jon Robertson
> There is virtually no business case to totally rewrite something like
> Word or Excel just to make it a managed app. Why throw away 20 years
> of code? It has nothing to do with .NET, just plain business sense.
> But for new development I think you will find MS use .NET extensively.
Exactly. But the rhetoric from MS is that everything should be
rewritten. That's exactly what they expect VB6 folks to do.
--
Jon Robertson
Borland Certified Advanced Delphi 7 Developer
MedEvolve, Inc
http://www.medevolve.com
Lurkio
>
>> Now this remains to be seen...but the evidence of .Net use in the Vista
>> beta's, for example, is not that compelling from what I have read...
>
Yes, I agree, but I think it helps put things into context. AFAIC, what
has emerged through the fog of hype is ultimately a decent replacement
for VB and ASP, not some brave new world of application development
(certainly not for a Delphi developer at any rate).
>> Historically, M$ has always used one set of tools for writing its own
>> software whilst providing another set for the rest of us great unwashed
>> out here. Hell, from what I have read most of them don't even use Visual
>> Studio and instead have their own internal development tools (e.g. one
>> I've heard of is named Rascal)
>
> I think that is definitely true in the Office and Windows teams from
> what I have heard, I think most of the others probably use Visual Studio
> though.
..as far as M$ is concerned, it's the Windows and Office teams who are
paying everyone else's bills :-)
Craig
> Yeah, and, wouldn't it be more efficient to dump old C++, MFC, etc. and
> move the "modern" framework ASAP? If the business case is not
> compelling to them, why should it be compelling to anyone else! It's
> not like they are going to stop maintaining Office anytime in near
> millenia.
>
I dont think they expect anyone to rewrite any large old apps in .NET.
Even if they tell you so it is just marketing hype rather than what they
are actually thinking in the boardrooms. .NET is realistically targetted
at new development.
Ryan McGinty
the "modern" framework ASAP? If the business case is not compelling to them,
why should it be compelling to anyone else! It's not like they are going
to stop maintaining Office anytime in near millenia.
Ryan
Craig
>
> Exactly. But the rhetoric from MS is that everything should be
> rewritten. That's exactly what they expect VB6 folks to do.
>
I think they just stuffed up on the VB front really. I think they
probably intended initially that VB developers would be able to easily
upgrade but by the time they realised they couldn't, it was too late.
Jim Cooper
> Is it because they are afraid of performance?
It's mainly because they have huge codebases already, and it'd be stupid to
migrate them all just to prove a point.
You'd be hard pressed to come up with a business case to migrate any large app
completely to .NET, no matter who it belonged to.
> No but is ironic that Microsoft gives new developers practically no
> choice but to use .NET exclusively, but yet they themselves don't use it
> exclusively.
There's no irony there at all. I'm amazed at how this weird attitude to .NET
seems to still be around. MS **do** use .NET extensively, although some people
seem not to want to believe it, no matter how often they are presented with
evidence to the contrary.
But it is almost irrelevant. You are most likely in a different business to
Microsoft. You should not choose your tools on the basis of what they may or may
not be using (especially when you have imperfect and incomplete information).
.NET is just a tool (well, several). Evaluate it and use it as such, in exactly
the same way you once upon a time decided to use Delphi.
Ryan McGinty
180 approach compared to Borland when it comes to backward compatibility
and maintaining those "large old apps." That is why Borland always gets
my dough...
Jim Cooper
> But the rhetoric from MS is that everything should be rewritten.
No it isn't.
> That's exactly what they expect VB6 folks to do.
It's just these people that are stuffed, everyone else is fine :-)
Jim Cooper
> Now this remains to be seen...
No it doesn't. Examples have repeatedly been given by MS people in these very
groups. Both VS2005 and SQL Server 2005 have large chunks of .NET code in them
for instance.
Jim Cooper
> But their dev tool products say "everything is .NET now."
Even VS2005 is capable of producing native code apps (it's the only way to
produce them for Windows Mobile 5, for example)
> They have a very 180 approach compared to Borland when it comes to backward
> compatibility and maintaining those "large old apps."
Yep, they screwed up way back when. VB has never been an OO language, which is
why we got COM (Crappy Object Model). They couldn't realistically maintain
backwards compatibility with it any more.
Jim Cooper
> Actually, many, many have argued that, for a long time, including here.
I've never seen it
Ryan McGinty
cashcow products and feel the pain when they make massive monstrosities of
changes, then I don't have faith that they won't make massive monstrosities
of changes. The VB6->VB.NET was a gigantic, "sorry guys, this is it - out
with the old, in with the new." What if .NET 3.0 doesn't have WinForms support
and everything goes to Windows Presentation Foundation? What if VS2007 comes
out and there is NO portability, but instead some "mirgration utility" that
says you need to redesign your forms? I'm sure people will be like, "yeah
right" but I'm sure that is what all the C++ MFC and VB programmers would
have said if you would have told them what was to come. That is what bothers
me, until they are using it in their mission critial revenue apps, I'm not
convinced that they won't pull something like this. I'm more interested
in seeing what Borland is doing to support the VCL. Borland has a better
track record of not forgetting the developer in my book.
Ryan
George M.
news:f8eaca9c236588...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Office 12 uses Avalon from what I can tell, so either the are moving it to
> .NET or they are using a native access layer. If they are using the
> native access layer, then it kind of negates their argument to move to
> .NET. They said, "if you don't move, you are not going to have access to
> the latest and greatest features of Windows."
Office 12 doesn't use Avalon (WPF) nor .NET. It is a pure Win32 native
application.
George
Jim Cooper
> <<
>The only conclusion that can be made from these results is
> that between PDC 2003 and the release of Vista Beta 1 Microsoft has
> decided that it is better to use native code for the operating system,
> than to use the .NET framework.
> >>
This is a dumb statement by young Richard. No-one has ever suggested that
Windows would be written in .NET, AFAIK. MS have suggested that it will become
the standard API at some point, but that's a different thing entirely (not sure
if it's still the plan - MS don't talk about .NET like that any more).
Ryan McGinty
is going to be around and constantly developed on." Not the, "oh I have
a new project that is 10k lines of code." That would be two different arguements
I guess ;)
For me, when people are arguing about this, I am reading it with the thoughts
that people are saying, "you are about to develop an app for next 3 years,
what are you going to use?" That make the decision much more important and
complicated.
> I think you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes I use .NET, sometimes
> Delphi Win32 and sometimes PHP. They are all good in different
> situations and I use them as such.