Whats up nowdays
Richard
For example: InstallShield, it cost more than my main Development Software.
Software cost has skyrocketed over the past 5 or more years. I'm I the only
one that feels it's out of control?
I know, I don't have to buy it, but I'm just sitting back shaking my head.
Craig
Many tools are outrageously expensive. (Rational anyone??) But normally
there is a cheaper and almost as good alternative. For every
InstallShield there is normally an Inno.
Craig.
Chris Burrows
news:453ecc9b$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Are developers really paying some of these outragous prices for addon
> tools,
> For example: InstallShield, it cost more than my main Development
> Software.
>
InstallShield is not particularly 'expensive' - it is your main Development
Software that is 'cheap' which maybe distorting your sense of value.
I use Wise Install but the price of that has also increased greater than
inflation. I actually bought a copy of InstallShield a couple of years back
because it included a 'free' copy of VS 2003 Pro - at a price cheaper than
VS! However, the amount of time Wise Install saves me is worth far more
than the price I paid for it.
> Software cost has skyrocketed over the past 5 or more years. I'm I the
> only one that feels it's out of control?
>
Software was far more expensive when I started developing in the 70's. A
command-line Pascal compiler used to cost $600 in those days.
Maybe prices are settling back to realistic values. BDS is far too cheap
relative to its worth. If Turbo Pascal was released today it would cost
about $150 - $200 if you took inflation into account and TP had less than 5%
of what is in the BDS. However, the BDS price has been kept down because
they have felt the need to compete with MS who heavily subsidise the cost of
their development tools with revenues from Windows, Office etc.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
JohnE
> tools,
> For example: InstallShield, it cost more than my main Development
> Software.
There are alternatives. After reviewing Installshield and Setup Factory, we
opted for Setup Factory and have been very happy.
John
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
> BDS is far too cheap relative to its worth.
Boy, you said it, pal. ;-)
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - Borland DTG
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Ralf Mimoun
> Are developers really paying some of these outragous prices for addon
> tools, For example: InstallShield, it cost more than my main
> Development Software.
> Software cost has skyrocketed over the past 5 or more years. I'm I
> the only one that feels it's out of control?
Au contraire, the market is great! Ok, I did not pay for an installer: Inno
Setup does everything I want and way more.
There are so many gems around, like Pascal Analyzer (don't leave your home
without it!), Castalia, Code Healer, Context Database Extension etc. So many
things are for free you simply can't buy from anyone else, like
DelphiSpeedup.
Ralf
Uffe Kousgaard
news:453ecc9b$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> For example: InstallShield, it cost more than my main Development
Software.
If we assume Innosetup do 95% of what InstallShield do and 95% of the
possible users are happy with that, there will be far few left to pay for
the more advanced features in InstallShield > price goes up.
I guess that is what you see.
Regards
Uffe
Walter Matte
ROI has not met my expectation.
Maybe its not too cheap if I truely needed to have every personality under
the sun... So I guess the Turbo route was a wise decision.
Walter Matte
"Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)" <nick....@borland.com> wrote in message
news:453efc0c$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Chris Burrows
news:453f...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Maybe it is for a *New User*. But I find that since D7, upgrade pricing
> to ROI has not met my expectation.
>
> Maybe its not too cheap if I truely needed to have every personality under
> the sun... So I guess the Turbo route was a wise decision.
>
I only use the Win32 Delphi Pro personality of BDS2006, and paid for each of
the upgrades from D7 > D8 > D2005 > D2006 and still believe it is good value
for money (I could have done without some of the D8 / D2005 pain however!).
For a professional developer it is just small change - my quarterly
accountant's bill is about the same as my annual upgrade fee. I get far more
enjoyment working with Delphi than my accountant I can tell you :-)
Even for a serious hobbyist - how many hobbies cost you only $500 / year?
Anybody who jumps from D7 or earlier directly to BDS 2006, or even if they
buy a new copy of Turbo Delphi Pro is really getting a bargain. Forget about
the IDE, compiler, debugger, etc. etc. Just imagine what it would cost if
you had to buy all 200+ of the VCL components from separate 3rd-party
vendors ...
Bill Mullen
I have D7 Architect and to upgrade it would cost $2290. For what?
Broken help along with other known problems?
That's **not** cheap! In fact, it is extremely high when you consider
the value that is gained if you already have D7 Architect.
Bill
On 24 Oct 2006 22:54:20 -0700, "Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)"
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
> For what?
Well, you do get (just off the top of my head)
ECO
Live Templates
History Tab
Code Healer Borland Edition
Castalia Borland Edition
VCL Guidelines
TFlowPanel
TGridPanel
Margin/Padding values in VCL
Inlining
Operator Overloading
Refactoring
Modeling
Flexible docking IDE
so it's not like there isn't a lot of stuff there.
Have you given the new IDE a look?
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Well, you do get (just off the top of my head)
More (again, off the top of my head -- there is probably quite a bit
I've missed):
Better debugging (enhanced locals, call stack)
New Win32 language features like strict private, class fields
Integrated unit testing
History view in IDE
Audits and metrics
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
How to ask questions the smart way:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
Indeed -- thanks.
I need to have that list at the ready. ;-)
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
> With no way to learn any of those features because of a broken help
> system <vbg>
Well, not entirely true. There are plenty of resources out on the web
about most of those things. In addition, many of them are quite
intuitive and can be learned by playing with them.
And the help does contain information about these new features.
J. Lee
system <vbg>
Oh, by the way, I don't think it has been mentioned yet today:
No announcement yet, Delphi must be dead, blah blah blah blah blah
Okay, back to work creating real-world applications that make me tons of
$$$ using.....you guessed it....Delphi 2006....
~Jason Lee
Bill Mullen
asking. How different is the IDE in BDS to that in Delphi 2005? If
they are similar, then I have looked and wasn't all that impressed. -
I also have a four monitor system and pretty much like the way I can
lay things out now with D7 and didn't like 2005.
Also, I was just about to cut loose of the funding to do the upgrade
when Borland announced the divesture. IMO, the future of Delphi
looked really bad at that time and I wasn't prepared to spend in
excess of $2000 to purchase a product that didn't really address any
current needs that D7 didn't provide for. Based on the history of
Borland and that announcement, I really expected the worst.
Now, I am thrilled that recent events (including all the negative
comments in this group) have happened as it indicates to me that
maybe, just maybe you all can pull this thing off - and that is
encouraging.
I hope that whoever is purchasing or considering to purchase Devco
(since the announced announcement failed to happen), is reading all
these postings of late. It clearly shows the desire for a quality
Delphi of old (with all 64 <hint hint> of the new gadgets and gizmos)
and the loyalty of the users **to the product**. My loyalty to
*Borland* is spent - however - I am extremely loyal to the Delphi
product and hope for a bright and long future.
I am *not* willing to cut loose of $2000+ for a product that has the
problems it has, and doesn't address the needs that have been
requested over and over again. When and if the next version is
released and is released under a new separate company and addresses
the needs and desires of the customers, and shows that the furture
plkans of the product are in tune with your customers, then I will not
hesitate to cut loose of the money. I understand that work is being
done to address these issues and I appreciate that, however, history
has a way of repeating itself and the recent history only decreases my
confidence level. Customer satisfaction and confidence are vital to
the survival of the new company as I am certain you all are all too
aware.
I have purchased *every* release of Delphi from 1 to 2005. I hope my
future with Delphi doesn't end there and that 2006 is simply a hole in
list of versions I have purchased.
Bill
On 25 Oct 2006 10:20:34 -0700, "Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)"
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
> Nick, please understand that I am really being honest here and truly
> asking.
No problem -- I understand where you are coming from. Naturally I'd
like you to upgrade to BDS2006, and would do what I can to try to get
you to do that. I feel like it's a great value and a good product.
I understand that you 'gotta do what you gotta do'.
Markus Humm
> Nick, please understand that I am really being honest here and truly
> asking. How different is the IDE in BDS to that in Delphi 2005? If
> they are similar, then I have looked and wasn't all that impressed. -
> I also have a four monitor system and pretty much like the way I can
> lay things out now with D7 and didn't like 2005.
>
Greetings
Markus
Alf Beford
Pascal scripting engine for customization. Newsgroups at:
Bill Mullen
classic undocked system that I can remember but there are enough other
post that talk about issues on multi-monitor systems as well as my
other points that it is still not where it needs to be for me to cut
loose of $2000+.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> I'd just like to say that this is really a GREAT feature to have.
>
> The ability to go back up the call stack and view the local variables
> has saved me many hours debugging time.
Yes, and the call stack has information on methods for which there is
no debug info, too. With D7 I have to use the JCL for this -- and then
it only works in the app; I can't see it in the debugger.
One thing I forgot in my original list: Third-party integration is
much slicker in D2006. For example, the excellent AQTime profiler works
right in the source editor, instead of needing to use an external
application.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx
Walter Matte
cost difference of what I paid from D7 Enterprise to D2005 Arch... say a
few hundred dollars..... I never got to use D2005, it was too buggy and
problematic.... and Borland never fixed/patched to a truely usable level.
Gee, I wonder if Form, GM, Toyota could have got away with that without some
litigation....
Maybe Borland should have given us saps a better break, for purchasing D2005
(Arch).
I have to laugh, at the D2005 road show and the D2006 roadshow in Toronto,
(ask Michael Li) I was there and saying well I can do that with Castilia why
should I upgrade ... outlining code, refactoring, (D2006 templates are so
intuitive!!!) , just use Castilia templates.....
Walter
"Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)" <nick....@borland.com> wrote in message
news:453fb248$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Lord Crc
<craig_...@nospam.please [a.k.a. acm.org]> wrote:
>Better debugging (enhanced locals, call stack)
I'd just like to say that this is really a GREAT feature to have.
The ability to go back up the call stack and view the local variables
has saved me many hours debugging time.
- Asbjørn
Richard
Boy oh boy, I can see it coming. Turbo products to take over the lower
priced tools and then BDS is going to get jacked up sky high?
Is this the plan?
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG)
> Is this the plan?
No, we have no such plans at all.
Chris Burrows
news:h16vj2pe01clddvkm...@4ax.com...
>
> I have D7 Architect and to upgrade it would cost $2290. For what?
> Broken help along with other known problems?
>
> That's **not** cheap! In fact, it is extremely high when you consider
> the value that is gained if you already have D7 Architect.
>
My 'cheap' comments were based on my recent experiences with the Pro SKU.
It's several years since I've been involved in the development of
'enterprise' products which require something of the level of the Architect
SKU. However, at that time, competing development tools (e.g. Oracle,
Uniface, Lansa etc.) were considerably more expensive than Borland's tools.
Not only were the initial per-developer licence fees several times more
expensive, but with some of the tools we evaluated you also incurred a
substantial annual royalty fee for each end-user! Talking to other
developers about how good Borland's products were led me to believe that
some had not taken them seriously just because they were 'too cheap'.
Maybe the situation is different now? The absence of price lists on the
vendors' websites lead me to think not.
JED
> Even for a serious hobbyist - how many hobbies cost you only $500 /
> year?
Mine has cost me $3500 in 3 months. Yikes, I hope the missus doesn't
read that!
--
Compact Framework for Delphi 2006: http://www.jed-software.com/cf.htm
QualityCentral Windows Client: http://www.jed-software.com/qc.htm
Visual Forms IDE Add In: http://www.jed-software.com/vf.htm
JED
> One thing I forgot in my original list: Third-party integration is
> much slicker in D2006. For example, the excellent AQTime profiler
> works right in the source editor, instead of needing to use an
> external application.
Which is great. Too bad the method isn't public.
The interfaces for integrating into the IDE are poor at best and still
far behind other IDE integation APIs.
Francois Malan
> Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG) wrote:
>
> > Well, you do get (just off the top of my head)
>
> More (again, off the top of my head -- there is probably quite a bit
> I've missed):
>
> Better debugging (enhanced locals, call stack)
> New Win32 language features like strict private, class fields
> Integrated unit testing
> History view in IDE
> Audits and metrics
And,
Fastcode replacements for some RTL functions - really speeds up some
application sections,
FastMM memeory manager
--
Francois Malan
> Richard wrote:
>
> > Is this the plan?
>
> No, we have no such plans at all.
Are there plans (or even talk) of releasing something along the lines
of a Turbo Architect? This way a one-man shop can still get all the
high end-features without paying the relatively high tag for BDS. Heck,
I even believe that small teams of 10-20 developers can benefit from a
Win32-only architect version at a lower price tag.
Question: I have been wondering about the naming convetions:
Pro, Enterprise, Architect. Are these truly the proper postfixes to put
on the Delphi product? The reason I ask is that the perception can be
created that a one-man shop has no need for Enterprise or Architect
features. IMO this is not always the case as the clients these shops
target often do have these requirements.
--
Anders Isaksson
> Code Healer Borland Edition
To be honest, this one is *really* crippleware, even if it has the
'full functionality' someone intended it to have. Reporting only the
first four of every kind of problem is crippling, no way around that!
It's only there to drive sales of the full version - it can't be used
seriously and so, has no other value than marketing. I suspect the same
can be said about the other 'free fully functional' offerings in the
package, but I haven't taken the time to evaluate them, especially
after this disappointing first experience.
I'd recommend that you stop boasting about it, as it only makes you
look ridiculous. Seriously.
--
Anders Isaksson, Sweden
BlockCAD: http://web.telia.com/~u16122508/proglego.htm
Gallery: http://web.telia.com/~u16122508/gallery/index.htm
Brion L. Webster
>Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG) wrote:
>
>>Code Healer Borland Edition
>
>To be honest, this one is really crippleware, even if it has the
>'full functionality' someone intended it to have. Reporting only the
>first four of every kind of problem is crippling, no way around that!
>It's only there to drive sales of the full version - it can't be used
>seriously and so, has no other value than marketing. I suspect the same
>can be said about the other 'free fully functional' offerings in the
>package, but I haven't taken the time to evaluate them, especially
>after this disappointing first experience.
>
>I'd recommend that you stop boasting about it, as it only makes you
>look ridiculous. Seriously.
And to think I almost took a second look at it after seeing it highlighted
in a blog post. First four of each defect?
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
Dennis Cote
> Lord Crc wrote:
>
>> I'd just like to say that this is really a GREAT feature to have.
>>
>> The ability to go back up the call stack and view the local variables
>> has saved me many hours debugging time.
>
> Yes, and the call stack has information on methods for which there is
> no debug info, too. With D7 I have to use the JCL for this -- and then
> it only works in the app; I can't see it in the debugger.
I haven't noticed any difference here, except that the debugger
sometimes causes the IDE to hang. Perhaps this is because BCB6 already
allowed me to view locals in functions higher up on the stack.
>
> One thing I forgot in my original list: Third-party integration is
> much slicker in D2006. For example, the excellent AQTime profiler works
> right in the source editor, instead of needing to use an external
> application.
>
This sounds useful since I have AQTime. I never noticed any integration
so I tried the help to see how it works. Searching the index for AQTime
I get a single page for the KnownColor Enumeration in .NET. :-(
So now I have a few questions.
How do I get the help system to stop returning results for .NET and VS
topics? I don't use those and don't want to have my help searches
cluttered up with useless information.
While were on the topic of removing clutter, how do I tell BDS to stop
loading other stuff I don't use, like C# and IntraWeb, every time it starts?
Finally, how is AQTime integrated in BDS 2006 and how is it used?
Dennis Cote
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
Dennis Cote wrote:
> How do I get the help system to stop returning results for .NET and
> VS topics?
You can change the filter, but it doesn't apply everywhere.
> Finally, how is AQTime integrated in BDS 2006 and how is it used?
AQTime adds a Profile menu to the IDE. You'll see a lot of familiar
stuff there. See also Run->Run with Profiling.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
Dennis Cote
> Dennis Cote wrote:
>
>> How do I get the help system to stop returning results for .NET and
>> VS topics?
>
> You can change the filter, but it doesn't apply everywhere.
>
Thanks. That helps a lot. It would be better if you could select
multiple filters (say Language C++ and BDS for Win32) at the same time.
>> Finally, how is AQTime integrated in BDS 2006 and how is it used?
>
> AQTime adds a Profile menu to the IDE. You'll see a lot of familiar
> stuff there. See also Run->Run with Profiling.
>
I have AQTime 3.1 and BDS 2006 installed and I don't have a Profile menu
or a Run with Profiling menu item in my Run menu. Is the BDS installer
supposed to recognize AQTime when BDS is installed, or do I have to do
something else to get it integrated?
Dennis Cote
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> It would be better if you could select multiple filters (say Language
> C++ and BDS for Win32) at the same time.
You can, by creating your own. Choose Help->Edit Filters.
> I have AQTime 3.1 and BDS 2006 installed and I don't have a Profile
> menu or a Run with Profiling menu item in my Run menu.
You need AQTime 4 for this, I think.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Dennis Cote
> Dennis Cote wrote:
>
>> It would be better if you could select multiple filters (say Language
>> C++ and BDS for Win32) at the same time.
>
> You can, by creating your own. Choose Help->Edit Filters.
OK, It tried this an got the following error when I clicked Save As. :-(
---------------------------
Error
---------------------------
A Runtime Error has occurred.
Do you wish to Debug?
Line: 707
Error: 'undefined' is null or not an object
---------------------------
Yes No
---------------------------
I have posted a screen dump of this error in the attachments group under
the subject "help filter bug".
So then I click the Yes button (to hopefully get some more information
about the cause of the problem), and I get another error dialog.
---------------------------
Just-In-Time Debugging Handler and CLR Remote Host
---------------------------
JIT Debugging component registration is incorrect.
Please repair the installation of the most recent version of Visual
Studio .NET or Remote Debugging components.
Alternatively, execute the following command as an Administrator to
manually repair the JIT Debugging component registration:
"C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\VS7Debug\vs7jit.exe"
/RegServer
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
I'm not sure why a Borland product wants me to use MS VS7 stuff for
debugging, so I didn't do anything else after dismissing this dialog.
Like many things in BDS 2006 the editable help filters seem like a good
idea, but they don't work correctly.
>
>> I have AQTime 3.1 and BDS 2006 installed and I don't have a Profile
>> menu or a Run with Profiling menu item in my Run menu.
>
> You need AQTime 4 for this, I think.
>
Too bad. AQTime 3 works well enough for me.
Dennis Cote
Chris Burrows
news:4540d09f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Anders Isaksson wrote:
>
>>>Code Healer Borland Edition
>>
>>To be honest, this one is really crippleware, even if it has the
>>'full functionality' someone intended it to have. Reporting only the
>>first four of every kind of problem is crippling, no way around that!
>
> in a blog post. First four of each defect?
>
Yes - that's right. My initial reaction was to respond to Anders post and
suggest that he could fix the first four defects and then analyse again to
see the next four, but before doing so I thought I had better try it myself.
Unfortunately, that approach is no good as the defects are sometimes more of
the nature of 'hints' that you might choose to ignore rather than serious
defects. I'm afraid I have to agree with Anders. For me it is really only
suitable for evaluation use.
I don't expect the vendor to give away his full latest version for nothing.
I doubt that Borland is paying him anything - he is getting the benefit of
the exposure. But for a free add-on of this type, I would rather see a
subset of features (maybe a full earlier version), rather than artificially
'crippled' features - they just irritate every time you use them.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> OK, It tried this an got the following error when I clicked Save As.
> :-(
I can't reproduce that. Are you saying that if you do this:
1) Help->Edit Filters...
2) Save as
...You see the error? If so, there's something different between your
machine and mine. The first thing I'd try is updating IE.
If not, post more detailed steps and maybe we can figure out a
workaround or at least a detailed bug report.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
IB 6 versions prior to 6.0.1.6 are pre-release and may corrupt
your DBs! Open Edition users, get 6.0.1.6 from http://mers.com
Dennis Cote
> Dennis Cote wrote:
>
>> OK, It tried this an got the following error when I clicked Save As.
>> :-(
>
> I can't reproduce that. Are you saying that if you do this:
>
> 1) Help->Edit Filters...
> 2) Save as
>
> ...You see the error? If so, there's something different between your
> machine and mine. The first thing I'd try is updating IE.
>
> If not, post more detailed steps and maybe we can figure out a
> workaround or at least a detailed bug report.
>
Craig,
I submitted more detailed steps to QC 35772 and 35773.
My IE version is 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519 and I ran
Windows Update last week. I just ran it again and the only thing it
updated was "Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Tool".
Dennis Cote