Wanna have some fun?
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
newsgroup : microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion
I started a Borland/Delphi/Kylix thread... Oh-Oh...
I invite all to participate, but please - BEHAVE... Be extra careful. To
convince
somebody to try our stuff, you need use hardcore technical argumentation,
not
respond to flames wars (yeah, I know, I couldn't resist doing it myself on
one
reply).
Let's see what happens...
If it gets too hot for you to handle, remove the server/newsgroup from your
list. <g>
(and don't reply here, reply there)
/Anders
PS: Before you say it's been done before... I've never done it before. So
there! ;-)
Scott Woods
I wonder is MS removed it.
Robert Leahey (Digital Metaphors)
part of some of those VB guys. I started to reply, but decided I needed to
calm down first.
--
Cheers,
Robert Leahey
Digital Metaphors Corporation
http://www.digital-metaphors.com
***********************************************************
Please do not send messages directly to me unless I have requested it.
Please send requests for technical support to sup...@digital-metaphors.com.
***********************************************************
Jack Johnson
other stuff ;-) - he said he didn't install the VBPJ D5 demo because of the
registration requirement:
"Yes I did get the CD but a BAD CHOICE im making people register to unlock
the CD. I won't install it as a result and would of otherwise and I think I
am one of the guys you're targeting - one of the first languages I learned
was Turbo Pascal! If your confident in your product, put it in front of
people."
I'm going to point my VB-developer buddy (who also refused to install the
trial) at this thread, just in case... I think that if some of the
VB-flamers tire of their sport and some of the VB-developers get in on it,
this could be a worthwhile discussion.
Good call, Anders!
--
Jack Johnson
Cyberworlds Inc.
http://www.cyberworlds.com
608-362-0318
"Robert Leahey (Digital Metaphors)" <rob...@digital-metaphors.com> wrote in
message news:8ls6s6$7v...@bornews.borland.com...
Dylan Thomas
>
What do you mean good call. I'm going to have a hart attack if I keep
reading.
Jack Johnson
discussion, gain insight into a market Delphi _should_ be able to penetrate,
and at least promote a little awareness of Borland & Delphi in that market.
Granted there's going to be a lot of knee-jerk, jingoistic flamage - but we
see that here when VB-types post, too. Pettiness seems to be pretty well
represented in every vendor's customer base. ;-)
Plus, all the idiot posts will make my VB-developer buddy squirm to think
they are representing his position! (OK, so I can be petty, too!) ;-)
--
Jack Johnson
Cyberworlds Inc.
http://www.cyberworlds.com
608-362-0318
"Dylan Thomas" <dy...@nospam.intelnet.net.gt> wrote in message
news:3981a3f8$1_2@dnews...
Roberto Icardi (Essedi)
confirming I'm right) that the average VB programmer is up to afford a
valuable discussion.
Mike Orriss (TeamB)
> Interesting flavor of Delphi-disdain on the
> part of some of those VB guys.
>
members of this newsgroup.
Mike Orriss (TeamB & Developer Express)
(Unless stated otherwise, my replies relate to Delphi 5)
(No unsolicited e-mail replies please)
TObject
> newsgroup : microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion
Looks like you guys had your a$$ kicked. ;)
Next time prepare better, and let us know before
the intervention.
We need a plan. Just rushing into the battle without
proper reconnaissance and artillery support is not smart.
marc hoffman
i liked this one:
"No, but if I wanted to take the time to improve my skills in a language it
wouldn't be in a language with such a limited market. I'd be more likely to
spend my time learning more about Java and XML".
yeha. who needs Delphi when you can code your apps in XML. ;-)
Roberto Icardi (Essedi)
> It is no worse than that which they would receive here from some of the
> members of this newsgroup.
rich
Ten years in this industry and I still have never worked on any
project where VB (or just B) did nothing more than cause problems!
I did notice there were some poster names that I did not recognize.
Which says to me, there are people using VB and Delphi. Some stated
they would rather (and do) use Delphi when they can.
I have used Borland and Microsoft products for years. I like VC++,
but I use Delphi for my main development tool. I actually don't have
a fanatical (is that a word?) loyalty to any one company (you cannot
in this industry, if you expect to eat). I focus on the technical
merits of programming languages and various other technology. I chose
my tools by deciding which is technically superior not which one has
the most market share. The people I work for are mostly intelligent
well informed shakers and movers in their respective fields. Very few
have ever rejected Delphi after seeing what could be done with it
(given a professional approach to development, not hacking).
One of the more recent projects I worked on was a reporting system
(that never ran the same twice in a row) containing ~18,000 LOC. I
re-wrote the whole system using Delphi and dropped it down to ~4,000.
I hate to say it but the system used VC++ (I think I already
mentioned, I like VC++). Anyway when I was finished, the system was
more stable and easily maintained. Just before I left that project I
had the financial manager tell me he couldn't believe the changes I
made and how fast I could implement new functionality.
I like to believe that the improvements I make in the systems I work
on are not attributable to just the programming evironments I chose.
But, also to my superior skills as an analyst/programmer. Given that
I want to be sure everyone knows, Delphi is IN FACT the superior
development evironment for Windows programming and will probably be
the same under Linux. A couple years ago a mentor of mine once stated
"Borland are the masters of compiler technology", and I tend to
agree.
One person in the VB NG asked if "Kylix was anything like Kleenex?"
And I can tell him, yes it is. It wipes the tears from the faces of
VB programmers who want to become professional developers under a
real OS!.
Anders Ohlsson (Borland) <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in article
<8ls56b$7v...@bornews.borland.com>...
Phil
"rich" wrote...
Hi,
> Well Anders... I had nothing to say in the VB NG.
Yes you have, you should have posted, what you just posted here, a very
honest a truthful account.
Cheers
Phil
Harry Van Tassell
"Mike Orriss (TeamB)" <m...@3kcc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.00001b79.042769c1@mikemain...
> It is no worse than that which they would receive here from some of the
> members of this newsgroup.
Yep, trolls get about the same bashing flame-thrower treatment regardless of
where they cast their net.
Actually it seems to me that Anders has some sort of masochistic streak in
his personality - he frequents the Inprise message area on Yahoo Finance and
with the current stock price being down to only about a dollar more than
it's cash value the natives there are none too friendly. But my guess is
that Anders is safe there since they seem mostly intent on beheading some
fella named Dale.<g>
--Hairy
Alan C. Earnshaw
Yes, it is. :)
Alan
Jack Johnson
Delphi zealots. The average VB programmer is a person using VB to program,
and a potential customer for Borland. These guys are not stupid, and they
are not "the enemy". Granted most of the initial commentary has been rude,
but if the people posting on Delphi's behalf hadn't resorted to name-calling
and personal attacks, I think there would have been more opportunity for an
ultimately reasonable discussion.
--
Jack Johnson
Cyberworlds Inc.
http://www.cyberworlds.com
608-362-0318
"Roberto Icardi (Essedi)" <roberto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ls961$7v...@bornews.borland.com...
Wayne Herbert
road. XML holds much promise.
John Kaster (Borland)
> You might want to save this quote and review it a bit farther on down the
> road. XML holds much promise.
As a programming language?
marc hoffman
hmm. thought my post never made it here (at least i still can't see it).
strange.
Martin Giroux
> You might want to save this quote and review it a bit farther on down the
> road. XML holds much promise.
AFAIK, XML is not a programming language. It's great, but it's not a
language.
--
Martin Giroux
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> language.
It may not be a "programming", but check and see what the L stands for.
--
Take care, and enjoy Delphi! I am.
Anders Ohlsson, Delphi Developer Support
http://www.ohlssons.org/sunshine/Niklas.html
http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/
Disclaimer: Unless otherwise stated, these are my personal
opinions, not those of my employer or anyone else.
Martin Giroux
I agree with you. Being a C++ person I find Delphi to be the better tool for
long projects and short deadlines.
> One person in the VB NG asked if "Kylix was anything like Kleenex?"
> And I can tell him, yes it is. It wipes the tears from the faces of
> VB programmers who want to become professional developers under a
> real OS!.
Too bad you didn't feel like posting this over there <g>
--
Martin Giroux
Martin Giroux
> It may not be a "programming", but check and see what the L stands for.
You're right, it is a language! I don't think I'll be using it to write
applications soon :) Then again, I could be wrong!
--
Martin Giroux
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
<ms.g...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> I don't think I'll be using it to write
> applications soon
Fenestra has developed an XML-based language plus interpreter in which
you can develop fairly full-fledged data collection instruments (i.e.,
"forms").
While it is true that XML itself isn't a programming language (it
actually isn't even a language, it is more a meta-language), many
programming languages could certainly be represented in XML.
--
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
www.fenestra.com and www.componentfactory.com
Wayne Herbert
Dylan Thomas
ignored us.
1. They can't come up with valid arguments to respond to us.
2. They feel discussing Delphi is a waste of time.
Which one do you think it is?
TObject
I think that they think that we are just spamming their newsgroup..
Richard
Dylan Thomas wrote:
> By now only borlanders are posting comments on that thread, they just
> ignored us.
>
> 1. They can't come up with valid arguments to respond to us.
> 2. They feel discussing Delphi is a waste of time.
>
> Which one do you think it is?
--
.....................
Richard Grossman
rgro...@techIII.com
Mark Reichert
news:3981eb90$1_1@dnews...
> I think that they think that we are just spamming their newsgroup..
Drop in the bucket compared to the 20000+ tech questions.<g>
--
Please respond only in the newsgroup. I will not respond
to newsgroup messages by e-mail.
GenJerDan
> wrote: cool.
>
> i liked this one:
>
> "No, but if I wanted to take the time to improve my skills in a
> language it wouldn't be in a language with such a limited market. I'd
> be more likely to spend my time learning more about Java and XML".
>
Wait a sec. VB isn't a limited market?
--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com
Absence diminishes mediocre passions
and increases great ones, as the wind
blows out candles and fans fires.
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
Everything is a limited market.
Ralf Mimoun
> > Wait a sec. VB isn't a limited market?
>
> Everything is a limited market.
Not neccessarily. Ever thougt about programming for Nasa? The sky is the
limit, and they are the best of the best of the best. A bug every some 100k
lines, better than anybody here. They use outdated hardware, but regarding
code quality, they are superheroes.
Ralf
Peter Jukel
I started a Borland/Delphi/Kylix thread... Oh-Oh...
>>
Great.
It's wierd how almost every reply from a VB-er was aggressive or arrogant --
kind of like a child who doesn't want to learn, isn't open to new ideas.
I think it's caused by Microsoft's propaganda. The stuff I've heard VB
programmers is sad, to say the least -- I've heard several people say that
Windows was made with VB!! I'm NOT joking.
Regards
Peter
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
No. I won't work for the government again.
> The sky is the limit
Did you say there's a limit? <g>
Alex Bakaev
very risky move on your part, Anders.
.a
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
[snip]
Wayne Herbert
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> very risky move on your part, Anders.
I'm fighting them with facts, not flames.
If they do the same over here, fine, I'm all for it. But if they start flame
wars, they just proved they have no facts. We win both ways.
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
>
I thought NASA was all about getting past the sky as the limit... <g>
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
problems about 18(?) months ago?
.a
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
>
> > Hmm, not sure I want to see certain VB types start retaliation here. A
> > very risky move on your part, Anders.
>
> I'm fighting them with facts, not flames.
>
> If they do the same over here, fine, I'm all for it. But if they start flame
> wars, they just proved they have no facts. We win both ways.
>
John Jacobson
"Wayne Herbert" <wher...@keymaps.com> wrote in message
news:3981FE81...@keymaps.com...
John Jacobson
outside the narrow VB box? Why would they do that? Most of them think they
are "professional programmers" that ought not to deign to consider other
tools.
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:3981FEF4...@borland.com...
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
C'mon... They're just ignorant, not necessarily stupid.
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> problems about 18(?) months ago?
We've had server so many times over the last four years. Oops, did I say
that out loud? <g>
Am I supposed to remember a specific situation? Our news server is still
crappy. Oh no, I didn't say that too, did I?
John Jacobson
market. At least the VC++ users appreciate and understand the benefits of
OO. If Borland could convince them that Delphi is *not* just like VB then
they could probably get a number of them to come over. Many programmers use
VC++ by default, but could be convinced by rational argument.news:8ls56b$7v...@bornews.borland.com...
> server: msnews.microsoft.com
> newsgroup : microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion
>
> I started a Borland/Delphi/Kylix thread... Oh-Oh...
>
> convince
> somebody to try our stuff, you need use hardcore technical argumentation,
> not
> respond to flames wars (yeah, I know, I couldn't resist doing it myself on
> one
> reply).
>
> Let's see what happens...
>
> If it gets too hot for you to handle, remove the server/newsgroup from
your
> list. <g>
>
> (and don't reply here, reply there)
>
> /Anders
>
> PS: Before you say it's been done before... I've never done it before. So
> there! ;-)
>
>
>
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> market. At least the VC++ users appreciate and understand the benefits of
> OO. If Borland could convince them that Delphi is *not* just like VB then
> they could probably get a number of them to come over. Many programmers use
> VC++ by default, but could be convinced by rational argument.
Dmitry Streblechenko
>
And they are probaly correct: 95% of the posts on that thread are made by
people from this group. If I were a VB'er, I'd loose all my interest in
Delphi after reading that thread. These guys are adults just like us; I'd
too simply ignore a thread (along with Delphi) if I were being treated as a
third grader.
Shame on us. Would be much better if Anders wouldn't let us know about
starting that thread.
Anders, try again next week, but don't even think about telling us.
Seriously. You can be calm and professional, we can't.
Dmitry
Dmitry Streblechenko
> > I think it would make more sense to go after the VC++ market than the VB
> > market. At least the VC++ users appreciate and understand the benefits
of
> > OO. If Borland could convince them that Delphi is *not* just like VB
then
> > they could probably get a number of them to come over. Many programmers
use
> > VC++ by default, but could be convinced by rational argument.
>
> This is where C++Builder fits right in. It even takes VC++ 5 projects.
Anders, did you post anything in VC++ newsgroup? *That* I would read.
Dmitry
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
Not yet. I figured I'd experiment on the VB guys first. I'm a sucker for pain... <g>
I'll consider it on the other side of the weekend.
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
should refrain from saying who I think was behind them [;o)
.a
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
>
> > If that's the only thing they do <g>. You probably recall some server
> > problems about 18(?) months ago?
>
> We've had server so many times over the last four years. Oops, did I say
> that out loud? <g>
>
> Am I supposed to remember a specific situation? Our news server is still
> crappy. Oh no, I didn't say that too, did I?
>
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
are not treating them that way, it won't do any good at all. Respect and
understanding have much better chance of breaking walls than grenades
do.
.a
John Jacobson wrote:
[snip]
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
You made me do it... It's all your fault now... <g>
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.vc.language
Pretty much the same post. Let's see if they are more mature. I hope so.
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
If I get *one* VC guy or *one* VB guy interested enough to check out a trial, I win, and Borland wins.
If you help me, we win together.
Joe C. Hecht
Joe
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
John M. Jacobson
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:39821049...@borland.com...
> > No, the VBers tend to be downright *dumb* much of the time.
>
> C'mon... They're just ignorant, not necessarily stupid.
>
Ralf Mimoun
> > Not neccessarily. Ever thougt about programming for Nasa?
>
> No. I won't work for the government again.
tests, re-reads etc. all the time, they use every tool and method to
eliminate flaws. But the quality is unbelieveable.
> > The sky is the limit
>
> Did you say there's a limit? <g>
Yes, but you can't reach it :)
Ralf
Angus Johnson
>
>You made me do it... It's all your fault now... <g>
>
>news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.vc.language
it looks like a full-scale invasion of borlanders there!
i suspect that most vc'ers are doing their best to ignore the delphi threads
as i would a vb thread here.
still, it was probably a good marketing ploy.
angus j.
Robert Kozak (Borland)
developers and they decide not to buy.
-- Robert Kozak (Borland)
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:398227D9...@borland.com...
> > still, it was probably a good marketing ploy.
>
> If I get *one* VC guy or *one* VB guy interested enough to check out a
trial, I win, and Borland wins.
>
> If you help me, we win together.
>
Rene Tschaggelar
the great number of unanswered questions.
Concerning the Delphi tread : a bit childish those guys.
This is not the way to propagate the news.
Very effective is a demo I usually do for C++ folks :
A little image viever that goes through a directory.
Unfortunately it isn't sufficient to convince the programmer.
That's a quick job. Their bosses tend to have no idea
about programming and are not impressed. I think it is great
for a company when they can afford that a programmer takes
a day what I can do in a couple minutes. For how long they
can afford it is yet another question.
As employee, why should I worry about finishing the project
faster when I'm paid a fixed monthly salary ?
Usually some engineers below the executive level of a company
decide what language is being used. They have to be targeted.
Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
Robert Kozak (Borland)
tick off potential customers just so that you can say, "See, I knew they
have no facts".
-- Robert Kozak (Borland)
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
news:3981FEF4...@borland.com...
> > Hmm, not sure I want to see certain VB types start retaliation here. A
> > very risky move on your part, Anders.
>
> I'm fighting them with facts, not flames.
>
> If they do the same over here, fine, I'm all for it. But if they start
flame
> wars, they just proved they have no facts. We win both ways.
>
marc hoffman
well, they sure seem to have a hard time setting the date on their
computers. i can see posts from 2001 and 2094, as well as from several "in
the future" dates in 2000 (opposed to only one miss-dated post in
kylix-non-tech ;)
Alisdair Meredith
news:39820cbc$1_1@dnews...
> I doubt that many VBers will participate. A thread that involves thinking
> outside the narrow VB box? Why would they do that? Most of them think they
> are "professional programmers" that ought not to deign to consider other
> tools.
Unlike all those well balanced, open, Delphi users? <g,d, r>
OK, we actually *do* have the best tool at the moment, but how many would
migrate to C# if it actually turns out to be Delphi on steroids, and how
many will continue to sit here and decry the new MS toy?
C# is used purely an example here, I have now idea how it is going to pan
out, but I see many loud voices around here that won't even give it a shot,
yet decry VBers for the same attitude. For another example, how many have
criticised Java for its slow runtimes, interpreted environment, enforced
garbage collection and the rest without actaully trying the tool? I know I
haven't tried it yet...
I am lucky that I got out of that narrow Delphi-or-bust mindset, I actually
found another borland tool better suited to my needs :¬ ) The question is,
what is more important to you? Using the best tool for the job, or using
the borland tool?
AlisdairM
Paul Franks [TeamB]
> I've heard several people say that
> Windows was made with VB!! I'm NOT joking.
>
I've heard this was the reason why W9x has poor memory handling and
protection.<g>
--
pf
Marcus J. Maunula
railtracks to Redmond.
<g>
Marcus
"TObject" <TOb...@pronographics.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3981ac0a$1_1@dnews...
> > server: msnews.microsoft.com
> > newsgroup : microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion
>
> Looks like you guys had your a$$ kicked. ;)
> Next time prepare better, and let us know before
> the intervention.
>
> We need a plan. Just rushing into the battle without
> proper reconnaissance and artillery support is not smart.
>
>
Marcus J. Maunula
into the
enemys nest with a battleaxe :).
The new nick shouild be Anders "Berserker" Ohlsson.
<g>
Marcus
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> skrev i meddelandet
John Herbster
Dephi a zip of complete source for little projects? Have you
discovered a place for "attachments"? John H
John Herbster
getting into the flames. Rgds, John H
Rene Tschaggelar
required and the few lines. The whole relativates when you tell them
that it takes several month to get into.
John Herbster
second.
"relativates" was not in my dictionary.
"Rene Tschaggelar" <tscha...@dplanet.ch> wrote
> ... The whole relativates when you tell them that it takes
marc hoffman
> second. "relativates" was not in my dictionary.
"compensates" (that's not really it, but it's close)
Johannes Berg
> second.
> "relativates" was not in my dictionary.
I guess he was thinking German here:
"relativieren* [relati'vi:ren] (geh) I vt Begriff, Behauptung to qualify. II
vi to see things or to think in relative terms"
johannes
--
Please reply in this newsgroup only
- SIP solutions -
http://www.sipsolutions.de/
Thomas Schulz
VC
> developers and they decide not to buy.
word up
u are right
Thomas
Rene Tschaggelar
The meaning was :
In order to get the RAD advantage of Delphi,
you have to be working with it every day. It is not useable
for those how do embedded programming in C to do a Windows
app twice a year. The same applies to other big packages such as
desktop publishing, symbolic math, schematic capture/ pcb layout.
Without a proper introduction you'll never unlock the power,
you're rather lost.
serf...@usinternet.com
> Actually, I've been more embarrassed by the comments posted there by
the
> Delphi zealots. The average VB programmer is a person using VB to
program,
> and a potential customer for Borland. These guys are not stupid, and
they
> are not "the enemy". Granted most of the initial commentary has been
rude,
> but if the people posting on Delphi's behalf hadn't resorted to name-
calling
> and personal attacks, I think there would have been more opportunity
for an
> ultimately reasonable discussion.
>
> --
> Jack Johnson
> Cyberworlds Inc.
> http://www.cyberworlds.com
> 608-362-0318
>
A simple question like - "Has anyone installed the evaluation copy of
Delphi that came with VBPJ" Might have been more revealing than:
> Let me ask some questions...
> What do you think about Linux? Not as an alternative, but more as a
supplement.
> Are you planning on developing for Linux anytime soon?
> What will you be developing in?
> Have you seen anything about Project Kylix yet?
> Have you seen Delphi 5?
These questions were clearly OFF TOPIC in a VB newsgroup. Had you
asked the simplier question (most professional 'VBers' subscribe to
VBPJ www.vbpj.com) there still may have been a flame or two, but those
that responded favorably could have been followed by "We are discussing
the advantages of using XXX for development on XXXX in <this
newsgroup>, you are welcome to drop by, and join in"
You could have left it at that, not responded to flames, and then seen
how many actually started asking questions here. No doubt you may have
gotten a flame or two here as well, but at least here, the people
working for Borland might have gotten them deleted before they take up
too much space...
FYI: I am reading through this thread on Deja.com just to check out the
real intentions. I do not plan to look for replies. I do want to
avoid the same mistake in the future and offered this suggestion for
the next attempt (some months down the road...) Since it is unlikely
that Borland will be distributing disks again soon, you might watch for
an article (not an ad) in VBPJ that mentions <a Borland product> and
then simply ask if anyone has read it. Those that respond favorably
could be answered, and the flames should be left alone to die off...
Good luck!
LFS
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
serf...@usinternet.com
> I don't think so. What about opportunity lost? What if you tick off
1000 VC
> developers and they decide not to buy.
>
> > > still, it was probably a good marketing ploy.
I am inclined to agree with Mr. Kozak. After reading through this
entire thread to date, it is evident that both sides have the gamut of
developers from zealots (fanatics?) to professionals.
I would think, signature disclaimer notwithstanding, that Borland
should have a 'no rivalry' policy governing those that post from their
servers. As Mr. Kozak points out, the acts of one individual can
effectively disenchant/discourage thousands of potential customers.
I also thought a selection of simple examples was a good idea, which I
saw mentioned in one of the posts. Let me suggest that some people
reading the ...general.discussion messages, might welcome such a
package (mentioning the disk supplied with VBPJ) but they should not be
posted in a message with an attachment, rather make them available on
the web and post a link, inviting interested parties to go have a look.
Again, I will not be back to read the replies, my only interests were
1) To understand the original intentions (seemed OK, execution proved
frightful) 2) To help avoid similar conflicts in the future....
Good Luck!
John Herbster
tool (be it a language, development tool, operating system, or CPU)
with a sizable user base tends to grow in complexity as more features
are added. I think that every now and then it is time to break with
the past and create something new from the most useful features of the
old. I want computer tools to be simple enough for the engineer,
chemist, mathematician, or expert in operations research to be able to
use. I wish that programming were simple enough that one would not
have to be genius to be both a programming expert and a dentist, like
<g> Rudy. Regards, John H
Robert Kozak (Borland)
> > No, the VBers tend to be downright *dumb* much of the time.
>
calling someone ignorant is a *major* insult. It is worse than calling them
stupid. I am sure the phrase you were looking for is 'uninformed'. And I
hoping you were referring to their knowledge of Delphi and not the world at
large.
-- Robert Kozak (Borland)
Robert Kozak (Borland)
"Dave Nottage" <da...@b3.deletethis.com.au> wrote in message
news:8m2s7n$c4...@bornews.borland.com...
> "Robert Kozak (Borland)" wrote:
> > > > No, the VBers tend to be downright *dumb* much of the time.
> > >
> > > C'mon... They're just ignorant, not necessarily stupid.
> >
> > Maybe its a language thing (or better yet cultural) but where I come
from
> > calling someone ignorant is a *major* insult. It is worse than calling
> them
> > stupid. I am sure the phrase you were looking for is 'uninformed'.
>
> biased, and downright unprofessional, but not *all*.
I wasn't stating my opinion just attempting to substitute words.
-- Robert Kozak (Borland)
p.s. As a general rule I try not to talk in generalities. <g>
Dave Nottage
> > > No, the VBers tend to be downright *dumb* much of the time.
> >
> > C'mon... They're just ignorant, not necessarily stupid.
>
> Maybe its a language thing (or better yet cultural) but where I come from
> calling someone ignorant is a *major* insult. It is worse than calling
them
> stupid. I am sure the phrase you were looking for is 'uninformed'.
It's also far too general using the term "VBers". *Some* are uninformed,
biased, and downright unprofessional, but not *all*.
Some are so biased that they can't see past MS, and it would take a meteoric
rise of a solution they don't see as viable, to convince them otherwise. As
I say, this doesn't mean all are like that.
It would be more beneficial to (for the most part*) ignore the wailings of
those few, and answer the questions of the genuine.
*An exception would be to correct, and only correct, the misinformation
being spread.
--
Dave Nottage
Rene Tschaggelar
One of them is LabView. I had to use it once to control some GPIB
equipment from a Mac. Everything is pulldown. A 'for loop' is an icon
you pull down. Sounds great - but it isn't. As experienced programmer
it took me weeks to achieve simple things. They introduced LabWindows
shortly after, based on C++.
We have a slightly different view of programming over here. You cannot
be just a 'programmer'. It is useless. You have to have some other
qualifications as well.
with an engineering degree you do technical SW.
with a knowledge in accounting you do accounting SW
and so on.
Programming itself is the task of making the machine do what you want.
Despite the computer being lifted up into the 'dream machine' clouds,
it is incredibly stupid. A missing semicolon.. , at least gives a compiler
error.
With the advent of PC's with multi GByte main memory, we should slowly
enter the region where the machine could become smarter.
The hardware will be there(..) in a decade, the concepts are still missing.
Delphi is doing best in the bottom-up aproach. A thing missing is the top-down.
Examples :
When I drop a TImage, a property inspector appears. It lets me set tons of properties.
Some are vital, some are coupled with others, others are details. This classification
also depends on the context. There could be an assistant sorting this out.
This assistant could be running during a small test, until the image is as the user wants
to have it.
The most common beginner's error when dynamically creating a control is the 'not-set-parent'.
I would't expects the compiler to notice it, but some sort of 'test-run-assistent'.
There is much to be done, much to be patented too, though I hate patents.
Jolyon Smith
Rene Tschaggelar <tscha...@dplanet.ch> wrote in message
news:39854A6C...@dplanet.ch...
> We have a slightly different view of programming over here. You cannot
> be just a 'programmer'. It is useless. You have to have some other
> qualifications as well.
> with an engineering degree you do technical SW.
> with a knowledge in accounting you do accounting SW
> and so on.
I have to take issue with this somewhat - an engineering degree does not
necessarily make you a good engineer, and it sure as heck does not mean you
will be any good at writing engineering related computer software.
I agree that domain knowledge is critical, but that does not have to be
embodied in the same individual as the software technical knowledge.
Indeed, it is often better provided by a.n.other. Very often the best
software is achieved because the communication between domain expert and
implementer reveals issues and requirements which otherwise would not have
occured to either.
Example: In the past two and a half years I have implemented (successfully
I might add <grin>):
A strategy management solution - yet I had no expertise in management
consultancy. The software contains many features which were not originally
specified but which arose out of my questions regarding the strategy
management process and which did not initially occur to the user.
A document management solution for FDA regulated industries, yet I had no
prior knowledge or expertise of the FDA regulatory requirements or of
soophisticated document repository systems. Again, the system contains many
features, both functional and architectural, which were not originally
specified.
A power station simulation - guess what... the closest I have come to a
power station previously was plugging my gadgets into the 3 pin wall socket.
Maybe I'm special - I am aware that there are programmers out there that
just "do as they are told" and are not interested in the solution they are
actually delivering. But I have eually come across many like me, who fling
themselves wholeheartedly into their work, treating the acquisition of
understanding of the business environment as just as much of a challenge to
be relished as the technical detail. And I know which of the two groups, in
my experience, produce the best results.
> Programming itself is the task of making the machine do what you want.
> Despite the computer being lifted up into the 'dream machine' clouds,
> it is incredibly stupid. A missing semicolon.. , at least gives a compiler
> error.
Ah - I think this perhaps is the difference. You obvisouly see a programmer
as a glorified secretary. A letter is dictated (the specification) and the
letter is then typed (the implementation) which then proof read (testing)
and finally sent to the recipient (the roll-out).
Perhaps there is a roll for this kind of programmer. But the vast majority
of implementation roles require far greater independence of thought. And it
is that independence of thought which will never be simulated in a
programming tool.
e.g. no matter how many "helpers", "assistants", "wizards" - call them what
you will - you provide in a programming evironment, at no point will any of
them say: "is this really what you want to do? Are you sure it wouldn't be
better if you did this instead?" or "Is this specification right? Because
if I've understood it correctly, what you want is this, but that doesn't
make sense in the light of what you told me last week about...." etc etc.
And that is why I think the 4GL revolution died after taking it's first
breath. People realised that if a system were to simplify the development
of systems to such an extent that anyone could do it, then anyone _would_ do
it, and the systems that came out as a result would be unusable.
This is why we use accountants to do our accounts, mechanics to fix our cars
and builders to build our homes - in theory the tools and techniques are so
well understood that anyone could do these jobs. In practice, it will
always take special skills, experience and knowledge. Software engineering
is no different to any of these disciplines (key word) - yes, anyone can
write a program. But not everyone has the mind set necessary to be sure
that the program they are writing is the right one or has been written the
right way.
Just my 0.02
--
Jolyon Smith
Neot Software Services Ltd.
http://www.neot.co.uk
Colin Wilson
wrote:
> This is where C++Builder fits right in. It even takes VC++ 5 project
>
Hmmmm,
For some reason I tried compiling the Quake II source at the weekend.
It compiled cleanly, perfectly in VC6, but failed to compile when I
converted it to a BCB project. Too many warnings, to start with, then
when I disabled warnings the game DLL failed to export the entry point
the same way as VC++ does, so it wouldn't load in QuakeII.
I'm sure it will work with some tweaking, but isn't the convertion
utility meant to do that?
Of course what I *really* need to do is translate it to Delphi!
Colin
e-mail :co...@wilsonc.demon.co.uk
web: http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/delphi.htm
Alisdair Meredith
news:398554c7$1_2@dnews...
> Very often the best
> software is achieved because the communication between domain expert and
> implementer reveals issues and requirements which otherwise would not have
> occured to either.
Absolutely, it is very hard to simulate ignorance :¬ )
By forcing the split, ignorance (hidden assumptions) becomes explicit.
having both in the one person often means that those hidden assumptions are
never questioned.
That said, when you have one combined expert the speed of development can be
that much quicker again. Whether this offsets the higher risks is a
judgement call on the case in hand, and more importantly the expert(s) at
hand.
AlisdairM
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
the inability to learn complex concepts, ignorant only implies a lack of
knowledge, not the lack of being able to acquire that knowledge. I regularly
use ignorant in relation to myself on subjects I am not up on.
"Robert Kozak (Borland)" wrote:
>
> "Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <aohl...@borland.com> wrote in message
> news:39821049...@borland.com...
> > > No, the VBers tend to be downright *dumb* much of the time.
> >
> > C'mon... They're just ignorant, not necessarily stupid.
>
> Maybe its a language thing (or better yet cultural) but where I come from
> calling someone ignorant is a *major* insult. It is worse than calling them
> stupid. I am sure the phrase you were looking for is 'uninformed'. And I
> hoping you were referring to their knowledge of Delphi and not the world at
> large.
>
> -- Robert Kozak (Borland)
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Have you ever met a lady screaming angst potential?
Have you ever dreamed of romance no matter how experimental?
Have you ever felt an alien drifting back into your hometown?
Did you think you were buying safety when you bought that piece of ground?
(Fish)
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
That's what 'ignorant' means, isn't it?
Maybe people are 'ignorant' to the meaning of 'ignorant' and that's why they
got ticked off... ;-)
Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot. I meant it in the best possible
way.
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ignorant
/Anders
Wayne Herbert
John Jacobson
"Wayne Herbert" <wher...@keymaps.com> wrote in message
news:39859107...@keymaps.com...
GenJerDan
> <aohl...@borland.com> wrote: > 'uninformed'
>
> That's what 'ignorant' means, isn't it?
>
> Maybe people are 'ignorant' to the meaning of 'ignorant' and that's
> why they got ticked off... ;-)
Unfortunately, most people take it in the sense of the secondary
definition: "lacking intelligence", rather than the original "lacking
knowledge on the subject."
--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com
"You know what an idealist is? That's a man
who notices that a rose smells better than a
cabbage, so he thinks the rose will make a better soup."
Mark Reichert
news:8m2ps0$5e...@bornews.borland.com...
> Maybe its a language thing (or better yet cultural) but where I come from
> calling someone ignorant is a *major* insult.
something like stupid squared.
--
Please respond only in the newsgroup. I will not respond
to newsgroup messages by e-mail.
Mark Reichert
> C# is used purely an example here, I have now idea how it is going to pan
> out, but I see many loud voices around here that won't even give it a
shot,
> yet decry VBers for the same attitude. For another example, how many have
I'll give it a shot when it actually arrives. I refuse to be taken in by MS
vaporware.
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
in the VC group hit on the head - the original post was the troll, given
the subject of this thread.
.a
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
>
> > still, it was probably a good marketing ploy.
>
> If I get *one* VC guy or *one* VB guy interested enough to check out a trial, I win, and Borland wins.
>
> If you help me, we win together.
>
> --
> Take care, and enjoy Delphi! I am.
> Anders Ohlsson, Delphi Developer Support
> http://www.ohlssons.org/sunshine/Niklas.html
> http://homepages.borland.com/aohlsson/
>
> Disclaimer: Unless otherwise stated, these are my personal
> opinions, not those of my employer or anyone else.
Alex Bakaev [TeamB]
compilers. MSC does some things very differently from BCC. I.E., it
mangles __stdcall names and doesn't __cdecl. You have to account for
that in BCB. This is not too difficult, of course.
Alex
Colin Wilson wrote:
[snip]
John Kaster (Borland)
> Strange, for me stupid is more an insult than ignorant.
As it should be. Stupidity is permanent (unless some amazing medical
advances occur). Ignorance is temporary and easily solved.
William Meyer
news:39821193...@borland.com...
>
> This is where C++Builder fits right in. It even takes VC++ 5 projects.
Well, sort of.... I've had little success with that aspect of it.
Bill
Dave Nottage
> Ignorance is temporary and easily solved.
I was going to say something about it not always being easily solved.. but
then the penny dropped <g>
--
Dave Nottage
Alex Bakaev
.a
Ben Matterson
So, was it fun? Or was it frustrating, annoying, and aggravating?
I still can't figure out what you hoped to gain by trolling the MS
newsgroups.
Ben
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
I got a lot of good feedback. Most of it via private email. A whole
bunch of people that are interested in our stuff.
> I still can't figure out what you hoped to gain by trolling the MS
> newsgroups.
I can understand that you can't understand...
I wasn't trolling either, but let's not get into that. I got a lot more
positive feedback than I thought I would get - as I said, most of
it in private email, because the people realized that they would get
labeled as Delphi zealots as well, by their own pack of attack dogs.
Ben Matterson
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
> I wasn't trolling either, but let's not get into that.
Let's do, since you were quick to accuse me of trolling not long ago.
Maybe you were not trolling, but your messages were certainly trolls.
The difference is in the intent. Trolling involves posting contrary
opinions for the sole purpose of provoking a response. Your motives
were, no doubt, as pure as driven snow, thus you were not trolling.
Messages about Delphi and Kylix are in a Microsoft newsgroup about
Visual Basic are off topic and guaranteed to annoy someone. That's a
troll. If you don't understand how your messages could be trolls when
your intentions were pure, you are not as newsgroup savvy as you think.
Ben
Anders Ohlsson (Borland)
> Visual Basic are off topic and guaranteed to annoy someone.
Please. Did you miss the excerpt from the MS guidelines for that group:
"Announcements of professional products or services are allowed,
provided suitable restraint is exercised and provided that such
products or services are of direct interest to the community that
exists here."
Kylix and Delphi are of direct interest to any VB developer who wants
to move to Linux, therefore my post is not a troll, and in compliance with
the newsgroup guidelines.
Ben Matterson
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" wrote:
> "Announcements of professional products or services are allowed,
> provided suitable restraint is exercised
LOL! I direct your attention to the subject of this thread. Enlisting
supporting voices to join your discussion is more like drafting for a
flame war than exercising suitable restraint.
> Kylix and Delphi are of direct interest to any VB developer who
> wants to move to Linux, therefore my post is not a troll, and in
> compliance with the newsgroup guidelines.
In compliance, but trolls nonetheless. As I said, if you do not
understand this, you do not understand newsgroups as well as you think.
However, I understand that you do not and will not think of your posts
as trolls. Similarly, many of the members of the VB newsgroup do not and
will not think of Delphi or Kylix as alternative tools.
Ben