Delphi to be integrated into ms visual studio ?!?
Laurent Richard
http://www.lemondeinformatique.fr/dossiers/lire-pourquoi-borland-emancipe
-un-peu-ses-outils-de-developpement-17-page-2.html
This french site is not a rumor site but a very official IT magazine so
I have little doubts that they invented this story. Apparently, they
have this information from a recent interview with Michael Swindell,
product & strategy vice-president of CodeGear.
For those of you that don't understand french, my short translation is
following :
After havins seen JBuilder 2007 integrated into Eclipse, the Delphi &
C++ & C# products are going to be integrated into MS Visual Studio, the
.Net part as well as the Win32 part (the site calls it 'Windows' part,
which is ambiguous). CodeGear would provide their Pascal as a new CLR
language and would make the VCL available on the MS development
platform. They would also rely on the MS C# and C++ compilers.
As far I know, no other news on the net mentions such a strategy yet and
the IDE roadmap doesn't mention it either.
Does any of this forum contributors know anything on this subject ?
--
Laurent
Nathaniel L. Walker
"To CodeGear, side of the development tools, the situation will be cleared
up. The subsidiarization will have had the merit to save the branch
development. If it had remained within Borland, it would have asphyxiated
fault of budget, Borland not having the means of investing R & D at the same
time in the ALM and the IDE. Filialisée but in the bosom of Borland, the
branch finds an operational budget, punctured in that of the ALM. But a
reduced budget which does not enable him to develop itself of the IDE. From
now on, the development tools will have to be based either on Eclipse, or on
Visual Studio.
First result of this policy, JBuilder gives up the technical base PrimeTime
(written in Java and which perdurait since version 3.5 of 1997) and rocks
today on the Eclipse platform with JBuilder 2007
This policy also signs the stop of Delphi as autonomous IDE. The next
versions will come to be grafted on Visual Studio, like a new language of
platform .NET. If the Delphi developers are likely to be lost there, the
advanced advantage is that Delphi on Visual Studio will allow as before
developing either for .NET, or for Windows thanks to the support of library
VCL.
Delphi, as a product, was famous in Borland Developer Studio (BDS) and
integrates the languages C++, Delphi and C#. These three languages support
the VCL. What implies that in the future versions, C++ and C# will
respectively use the native compilers C++ and C# of Microsoft but will
continue to profit from the VCL. A version of BDS under Visual Studio with a
compatible VCL Vista is awaited for 2007.
For lack of outlets, Kylix, Delphi for Linux is extremely likely to be
abandoned.
The effort of CodeGear will have to now be dedicated on a differentiation of
its products on Eclipse and Visual Studio compared to competition. With for
handicap leaving affublé a still unknown name in the community, even if the
shade of Borland planes behind."
CODEGEAR, IS THIS TRUE???
I know Microsoft licenses out its IDE to third parties, cause RemObjects
delivers Chrome with a Visual Studio 2005 - everything for C++/C#/J#/VB in
it.
- Nate.
Nathaniel L. Walker
tony caduto
not VS.
Later,
--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for Postgresql and MySQL
Only $9.99 until December 1st 2006
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Bob Swart
> Delphi, as a product, was famous in Borland Developer Studio (BDS) and
> integrates the languages C++, Delphi and C#. These three languages support
> the VCL.
C# does not support VCL.
> What implies that in the future versions, C++ and C# will respectively
> use the native compilers C++ and C# of Microsoft but will continue to
> profit from the VCL.
Again, C# doesn't profit from the VCL. And why would CodeGear use
Microsoft's C++ compiler when they have one of their own? Perhaps the
Managed C++ compiler? But that one would most likely be unable to handle
the VCL as well. So I'm not sure what the use of all this would be...
> - Nate.
Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://drbob42.com/weblog.xml
New Delphi 2006 Courseware e-books at http://www.eBob42.com/courseware
Nathaniel L. Walker
> Hi Nathaniel,
>
>> Delphi, as a product, was famous in Borland Developer Studio (BDS) and
>> integrates the languages C++, Delphi and C#. These three languages
>> support the VCL.
>
> C# does not support VCL.
I believe they were referring to VCL.NET.
>> What implies that in the future versions, C++ and C# will respectively
>> use the native compilers C++ and C# of Microsoft but will continue to
>> profit from the VCL.
>
> Again, C# doesn't profit from the VCL. And why would CodeGear use
> Microsoft's C++ compiler when they have one of their own? Perhaps the
> Managed C++ compiler? But that one would most likely be unable to handle
> the VCL as well. So I'm not sure what the use of all this would be...
Again, I'm pretty sure they meant VCL.NET.
I didn't bother manually translating it, I just parsed it through Google
translate,
and many times it does ouput incorrect statements like these due to the fact
that sometimes in french the adjectives/adverbs are put the nouns/verbs and
not in
front of them as in english. The language is also alot more "to the point".
What they meant was that it will use Microsoft C++ and C# compilers (they
currently use their own C++ compiler, and the Microsoft C# compiler). I
would reckon they would use Visual C++ for VCL.NET via C++/CLI.
Delphi would of course continue to support VCL. It seems they don't really
feel like working on their C++ toolchain any longer.
I would translate (myself):
"Ces trois langages supportent la VCL. Ce qui implique que dans les futures
versions, C++ et C# utiliseront respectivement les compilateurs natifs C++
et C# de Microsoft mais continueront de bénéficier de la VCL. Une version de
BDS sous Visual Studio avec une VCL compatible Vista est attendue pour
2007."
as:
"Three languages support the VCL. This implies that in future versions, C++
and C# will utilize (use) the respective Microsoft compilers but continue to
benefit from the VCL. A version of BDS for Visual Studio with a
Vista-compatible VCL is due for 2007."
Sorry for the mixup. Google sucks I guess these things should be translated
by a human :)
I was trying to be lazy :))
Also, I'm saying this due to the OP saying this was a reputable source. I
don't know
if that is true, though they seem to be from what I've read on a few of
their pages.
- Nate.
Nathaniel L. Walker
It would be harder to implement a new Delphi IDE on Eclipse than
on Visual Studio, especially since all the .NET stuff is, well, .NET.
and Visual Studio already has all the designers, etc. in the IDE to
begin with.
(That was a MAJOR run-on! Lol)
So I guess Delphi currently targeting .NET will either have to run two
totally different IDEs, or migrate everything .NET that they were doing
to .NET 2.0, even if they think the current implementation (1.1) works
good enough for them?
- Nate.
"tony caduto" <to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4570b307$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Captain Jake
> After havins seen JBuilder 2007 integrated into Eclipse, the Delphi &
> C++ & C# products are going to be integrated into MS Visual Studio, the
> .Net part as well as the Win32 part (the site calls it 'Windows' part,
> which is ambiguous). CodeGear would provide their Pascal as a new CLR
> language and would make the VCL available on the MS development
> platform. They would also rely on the MS C# and C++ compilers.
This seems like a good idea for their C# and Delphi for .NET stuff, and C++, since the Borland C++ compiler lagged behind the MSFT one starting several
years ago. I suppose it could work well for Delphi for Win32 as well.
They could then cleanly bifurcate their technologies. JBuilder, based on Eclipse, for non-MS platforms. Plug-ins for VS.NET for the Windows side of
things. Makes a lot of sense to me.
I just don't know how reliable that article was, that's all.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 0.9.7.3033
"Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]"
> Again, C# doesn't profit from the VCL. And why would CodeGear use
> Microsoft's C++ compiler when they have one of their own? Perhaps the
> Managed C++ compiler? But that one would most likely be unable to handle
> the VCL as well. So I'm not sure what the use of all this would be...
They tried using other C++ compilers in CBuilderX, with the direct
consequence that VCL wasn't supported by that tool. To say it wasn't a
big hit in the BCB community would be an understatement.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
Yannis
This will make me jumb ship as soon as possible. I am not going
to follow any one that is not going to lead period.
If they are going to just attach them selfs in an other IDE and
compiler then I find no reason to keep on using this technology
I'll just revert to the "dark side".
Regards
Yannis.
--
Nathaniel L. Walker
> C++, since the Borland C++ compiler lagged behind the MSFT one starting
> several
> years ago. I suppose it could work well for Delphi for Win32 as well.
>
> They could then cleanly bifurcate their technologies. JBuilder, based on
> Eclipse, for non-MS platforms. Plug-ins for VS.NET for the Windows side of
> things. Makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> I just don't know how reliable that article was, that's all.
I also think it's a bit late to jump on the Microsoft IDE bandwagon
(which is like Eclipse for the proprietary world). I think they have
the right idea, but, just like with JBuilder; waited a little longer than
they should have to make the jump.
It also sucks because third-party vendors writing plug-ins/etc.
for the Dexter IDE will have to abandon their products for the
new IDE. Sales will drop and many of the features will and benefits
that they add will be unnecessary on the Visual Studio IDE base
(Athlant/SourceconneXion come to mind immediately).
I, for one, will not jump on this because I don't want their Together
and other features turning my Visual Studio installation into a third-
world development environment.
Kinda a slap in the face to those in Delphi myopia.
I wonder what the prices will be like, now, since the best way for
them to do such a thing would be to license the base Visual Studio
2005 IDE and .NET/Windows SDK. Just marketing the plug-ins
(especially at current price), many will wonder what's the use if they
have to buy a Visual Studio development environment, and can get
pretty much all they need to do done with what comes with it
(outside of Native development).
And no updated help for BDS2006 users will, indeed, suck.
Maybe someone from CodeGear can come approve, or debunk, this
article and shed some light on the situation?
- Nate.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Does any of this forum contributors know anything on this subject ?
I do, and it is totally false.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
>
> CODEGEAR, IS THIS TRUE???
No, it is not true. Completely false.
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
not moving any of our developer studio into Visual Studio. I'm not clear
where this information came from and will investigate.
thanks for the heads up!
Michael
"Laurent Richard" <lau...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:laurent-340536...@forums.borland.com...
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Like I said the site looked "legitimate" to me, but I wasn't putting
> that much into it.
Obviously some major disconnect somewhere.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Nathaniel L. Walker
news:4570bf78$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Nathaniel L. Walker wrote:
>
>>
>> CODEGEAR, IS THIS TRUE???
>
> No, it is not true. Completely false.
Good news.
Like I said the site looked "legitimate" to me, but I wasn't putting
that much into it.
I see mags with Oprah at both sides of the scale everyday in
Wal-Mart, and turn a blind eye.
- Nate.
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> I, for one, will not jump on this because I don't want their Together
> and other features turning my Visual Studio installation into a third-
> world development environment.
FWIW, AFAIK Together for VS is one of Borland's top selling items.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Nathaniel L. Walker
Well I dunno what happened between the Together Edition for Visual
Studio .NET and the Edition in BDS.
- Nate.
Nathaniel L. Walker
that would have added to a typical Visual Studio development
environment would have had a very [extensive] noticeable
effect on performance.
- Nate.
Bruce McGee
> No, it is not true. Completely false.
Good.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> The sheer amount of plug-ins
> that would have added to a typical Visual Studio development
> environment would have had a very [extensive] noticeable
> effect on performance.
It is bad enough for me without Together, but my point was that many VS
users actually want it in there.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Sarah
> I know Microsoft licenses out its IDE to third parties, cause RemObjects
> delivers Chrome with a Visual Studio 2005 - everything for C++/C#/J#/VB in
> it.
Are you sure?
I thought the VS bundle offered by RemObjects contains only Chrome.
Not all those language you have mentioned.
Nils Haeck
comments seem to be made by Bruno de Combiens from Borland France. The
article only *references* another interview with Michael Schwindel.
I understand a bit of french and the article is written very speculatively
like "it could perhaps happen this and that way", and it's also not very
clear who states what.
Nils
Nathaniel L. Walker
"Sarah" <Sara...@HotMail.com> wrote in message
news:4570cd50$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
http://www.chromesville.com/page.asp?id={041C8EB7-A6EB-4536-95BA-2566C6751D36}#ChromeVS
"Starting with the release of version 1.5.3, Chrome is also available in an
additional SKU that includes the Visual Studio 2005 IDE - an ideal package
for developers that do not own a full copy of Visual Studio, yet.
The edition of Visual Studio included with this SKU is comparable to a
Visual Studio 2005 Standard that focuses on Chrome development (no other
language project systems are provided), and comes in one combined setup that
installs both Visual Studio with Chrome as one experience."
- Nate.
Nathaniel L. Walker
'for' := 'not';
That's what I meant, sorry.
The other reply explains :)
- Nate.
"Sarah" <Sara...@HotMail.com> wrote in message
news:4570cd50$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Nathaniel L. Walker
news:4570d34a$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Agree. While the site seemed to be legitimate, the comments were a bit
suprising because there has been NOTHING like that coming out of
CodeGear. Even during the days when people were bringing such a move
up as "something that could be done" it was quickly shot down as something
was not not likely to [ever] happen.
The source seems legit, but I guess it's nothing but another techie-tabloid.
- Nate.
I.P. Nichols
The key difference is that RemObjects with Chrome doesn't offer a competing
IDE while CodeGear nee Borland does and thus Microsoft does allow Visual
Studio to be bundled with Chrome.
tony caduto
> Eclipse is not a good base for non-Java-type-language oriented IDEs.
>
> It would be harder to implement a new Delphi IDE on Eclipse than
> on Visual Studio, especially since all the .NET stuff is, well, .NET.
> and Visual Studio already has all the designers, etc. in the IDE to
> begin with.
>
I don't think that is the case. Eclipse has plug ins for lots of
non java type languages(perl,php,C# and C++ come to mind). After all a
IDE is nothing more than a fancy front end to some compiler or runtime.
Fred Derf
> > Does any of this forum contributors know anything on this subject ?
>
> I do, and it is totally false.
Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
Bob Swart
>>> Does any of this forum contributors know anything on this subject ?
>> I do, and it is totally false.
>
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
Well, Nick is the CodeGear Delphi Product Manager, and Michael Swindell
is the CodeGear VP of Product Strategy, so if they say it ain't so, you
better believe it ;-)
Liz
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
Well the codegear spin off would seem mighty stupid if part of their
business was going into someone elses product.
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
insert name
> I was recently very surprised to read the following
> http://www.lemondeinformatique.fr/dossiers/lire-pourquoi-borland-emancipe
> -un-peu-ses-outils-de-developpement-17-page-2.html
The relevant bit is:
"Cette politique signe également l'arrêt de Delphi en tant qu'IDE
autonome. Les prochaines versions viendront se greffer sur Visual
Studio, comme un nouveau langage de la plate-forme .NET. Si les
développeurs Delphi risquent de s'y perdre, l'avantage avancé est que
Delphi sur Visual Studio permettra comme avant de développer soit pour
.NET, soit pour Windows grâce au support de la bibliothèque VCL.
Delphi, en tant que produit, a été renommé en Borland Developer Studio
(BDS) et intègre les langages C++, Delphi et C#. Ces trois langages
supportent la VCL. Ce qui implique que dans les futures versions, C++ et
C# utiliseront respectivement les compilateurs natifs C++ et C# de
Microsoft mais continueront de bénéficier de la VCL."
insert name
> For those of you that don't understand french, my short translation is
> following :
> After havins seen JBuilder 2007 integrated into Eclipse, the Delphi &
> C++ & C# products are going to be integrated into MS Visual Studio, the
> .Net part as well as the Win32 part (the site calls it 'Windows' part,
> which is ambiguous). CodeGear would provide their Pascal as a new CLR
> language and would make the VCL available on the MS development
> platform. They would also rely on the MS C# and C++ compilers.
Makes sense.
They need to reduce development costs while not being backwards in NET
support.
"Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]"
> Well, Nick is the CodeGear Delphi Product Manager, and Michael Swindell
> is the CodeGear VP of Product Strategy, so if they say it ain't so, you
> better believe it ;-)
One might add that from a marketing point of view it would seem pretty
stupid to firmly deny plans for a product they intend to release
shortly, in particular given the credibility problems they have had in
the few last years as part of Borland.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
I.P. Nichols
Even so, but is there any chance we could subject these guys to a Salem
Witch Trial experience just to make sure they really are truthful? I have in
mind the one where you tie the 'witch' to a heavy weight and toss the said
witch into the river. If the accused drowned, then they were innocent, if
they floated they were guilty and hanged. ;-)
Nathaniel L. Walker
"tony caduto" <to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4571077c$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Nathaniel L. Walker wrote:
>> Eclipse is not a good base for non-Java-type-language oriented IDEs.
>>
>> It would be harder to implement a new Delphi IDE on Eclipse than
>> on Visual Studio, especially since all the .NET stuff is, well, .NET.
>> and Visual Studio already has all the designers, etc. in the IDE to
>> begin with.
>>
>
> I don't think that is the case. Eclipse has plug ins for lots of
> non java type languages(perl,php,C# and C++ come to mind). After all a
> IDE is nothing more than a fancy front end to some compiler or runtime.
>
Eclipse refactoring support does not do well for C++, PHP, PERL, C#,
Ruby, <Insert_Other_Name_Here>.
Nor does its modelling framework, graphical designers, etc.
Those tools are built "from the ground up" by their distributors (if
available).
- Nate.
Didier Gasser-Morlay
Someone's been seeing too much Monty Python lately :)
but frankly that did work :)
OBones
Nope. The French text is this:
Cette politique signe également l'arrêt de Delphi en tant qu'IDE
autonome. Les prochaines versions viendront se greffer sur Visual
Studio, comme un nouveau langage de la plate-forme .NET.
Which means that:
These decisions also mark the stop of Delphi as an autonomous IDE. The
next versions will plugg themselves onto Visual Studio, as a new
language of the .Net platform.
And trust me, the uproar in the French community is HUGE.
"Le monde" is sort of a reference in the press here, CodeGear better put
out an official statement, IN FRENCH, or many people will leave the boat...
--
Olivier Sannier
JVCL Coordinator
http://jvcl.sf.net/
Find more about me on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/obones
OBones
Microsoft's compiler but keeping the benefit of the VCL...
And there is no "conditional" here, it is stated as a fact.
Captain Jake
> Kinda a slap in the face to those in Delphi myopia.
I think those people are going to get much bigger slaps in the face from reality, as do all that get myopic in their technology choices.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 0.9.7.3033
Captain Jake
> To be very clear: we are *not* integrating Delphi into Visual Studio. We are
> not moving any of our developer studio into Visual Studio.
Well, there we have it. Urban legends even infiltrate our hallowed newsgroups. Wow, I'm shocked.
Der呈n
Der§en.
"OBones" <obones_gfd_@_gfd_altern.org> a écrit dans le message de news:
4571ca36$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Captain Jake
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
"What is truth? Is your truth the same as my truth?" -Pontius Pilate
Fred Derf
> "What is truth? Is your truth the same as my truth?" -Pontius Pilate
The truth isn't your or mine. The truth exists regardless of us.
Wayne Niddery [TeamB]
> Oh yeah, and it also says that the next version of C++ will use
> Microsoft's compiler but keeping the benefit of the VCL...
> And there is no "conditional" here, it is stated as a fact.
Then someone needs to find out what this writer's agenda is - or if it
really came from someone at Borland France, *that* person needs to be dealt
with by CodeGear ASAP.
--
Wayne Niddery - Winwright, Inc (www.winwright.ca)
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go
away." - Philip K. Dick
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
Michael Swindell and I both do.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
David Dean [CodeGear]
wrote:
> > I do, and it is totally false.
>
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
I'm certainly not working on anything like that... I'm testing our
IDE and toolsets. I don't have Visual Studio installed on any of my work
machines. This topic has never come up in any meeting I have attended.
IMO, it is a complete fabrication.
--
-David Dean
CodeGear C++ QA Engineer
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
Sadly, I can't read French, and I can't seem to figure out if there is
anyway to comment on the article. Is there?
Phillip Woon
> I'm sorry Bob, I pressed send too fast <g>
>
> > Hi Nathaniel,
> >
> > > Delphi, as a product, was famous in Borland Developer Studio
> > > (BDS) and integrates the languages C++, Delphi and C#. These
> > > three languages support the VCL.
> >
> > C# does not support VCL.
>
> I believe they were referring to VCL.NET.
>
C# doesn't support VCL.Net.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> IMO, it is a complete fabrication.
No opinion necessary. ;-)
Bob S
If you /trust/ Google to translate it for you... ;)
Google-translated page:
http://tinyurl.com/v2g52
Google-translated page - preview
http://preview.tinyurl.com/v2g52
Jonathan Benedicto
> Sadly, I can't read French, and I can't seem to figure out if there is
> anyway to comment on the article. Is there?
Yes there is.
Use AltaVista BabelFish to translate the page, and you'll see the comments
form at the bottom of the page. It's kinda small writing.
HTH
Jonathan
Nathaniel L. Walker
managed language. They are .NET Assemblies just like WinForms.
That is, unless Borland has managed to do something to make
it incompatible with other .NET languages. Such is the design
of the .NET Framework.
If you are referring to designer support/etc. in the BDS IDE,
then no.
- Nate.
"Phillip Woon" <pw...@woontech.com> wrote in message
news:4572...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Johnnie Norsworthy
The codegear web site
No upgrade path from D7 or below to Turbos
Why can't cattle mutilations happen only to mad cows?
The desire for a Delphi-Only IDE, preferable Win32+Win64
Compiler upgrades to support only 386 or higher CPUs
or the new one...
The lack of common CodeGear company name bracketing standards for newsgroup
posters:
David Dean (CodeGear)
Nick Hodges [CodeGear]
Is CodeGear a parameter here or an index? I tried to figure this one out;
the error insight insisted on highlighting the two names (probably due to
the spaces). I have no idea what to do now without seeeing the original
source code and the "CodeGear" identifier declaration. The new CodeGear
knowledgebase on their web site only said:
CodeGear = new Company();
which little help, and as we all know... the online help in BDS2006 didn't
help a bit.
-Johnnie
geikelite
"Johnnie Norsworthy" <jln...@verizon.net> wrote
> source code and the "CodeGear" identifier declaration. The new CodeGear
> knowledgebase on their web site only said:
> CodeGear = new Company();
> which little help, and as we all know... the online help in BDS2006 didn't
> help a bit.
>
Did you inquire with julie kulspar? She now appears to the the lead-tech or
all-hands person of CodeGear.
David Clegg
> or the new one...
> The lack of common CodeGear company name bracketing standards for
> newsgroup posters: David Dean (CodeGear)
> Nick Hodges [CodeGear]
> Is CodeGear a parameter here or an index?
Finally! Something decent to debate around here for a change! :-)
Personally, I think it comes down to the relative position of the
poster within CodeGear. Nick, as Delphi Product Manager, is allowed to
consider himself an indexed property (or perhaps even an array),
whereas David Dean can only be considered a method. I just need to
figure out the difference between these syntactical elements in the
context of CodeGear employees.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dcl...@gmail.com
http://cc.borland.com/Author.aspx?ID=72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
http://qc.borland.com
"Weaselling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us
from the animals. Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson
David Dean [CodeGear]
"Johnnie Norsworthy" <jln...@verizon.net> wrote:
> The lack of common CodeGear company name bracketing standards for newsgroup
> posters:
> David Dean (CodeGear)
> Nick Hodges [CodeGear]
(The other way around, actually)
It's a function of how the NNTP RFCs are interpreted. My preferred
client does not allow parenthesis in the From header, so I had to
improvise.
John Jacobson
"Fred Derf" <nospam> wrote in message
> Captain Jake wrote:
>
>> "What is truth? Is your truth the same as my truth?" -Pontius Pilate
>
> The truth isn't your or mine. The truth exists regardless of us.
I was being sarcastic.
John Kaster (CodeGear)
> She now appears to the the lead-tech or all-hands person of CodeGear.
She works for our PR agency.
--
John Kaster http://blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com
Get source: http://cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: http://ec.borland.com
Alan Garny
news:45720d08$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Laurent Richard wrote:
>
> Sadly, I can't read French, and I can't seem to figure out if there is
> anyway to comment on the article. Is there?
There is, yes, but you have to register to their website before being able
to do so. As it happens, Oliver Sannier has already posted a message there
and quoted Michael (Swindell), the one in this thread dated 1 December 2006
at 11:49pm (British time).
Alan.
OBones
> Laurent Richard wrote:
>
> Sadly, I can't read French, and I can't seem to figure out if there is
> anyway to comment on the article. Is there?
There is, you need to be registered. I already commented and it has been
validated.
For non French readers, here is a (quick) translation that should be
more accurate than any automatic one:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why Borland emancipates (a little) its development tools
The future of the product lines
(24/11/2006) - by Pierre Tran
The subsidiarisation of CodeGear clearly shows two product lines, ALM
for Borland and development tools for CodeGear.
Towards Prometheus
In the ALM (Application LifeCycle Management) domain, Borland will
continue to grow its offer.
Announced in 2005, Core SDP (Software Delivery Platform), previously
known under the codename « Themis », brings to reality Borland's ALM
vision initiated in 2002. This solution is the foundation of
collaborative work between different roles: Analyst, Architect,
Developper and Tester. The system is based on a workflow coupled with a
configuration maanger.
During year 2006, Borland announced a computer governance and management
with Tempo, which brings in the roles of finance manager, resource
manager and project manager. The editor also announced a solution for
quality management with Silk and Gauntlet bringing in the role of
qualitician.
These modules naturally interface themselves with the other products of
the Core SDP line at a higher level. Their integration with the lower
layers of engineering (requirements, modeling, coding...) is currently
in progress. At full term, this should bring the achievement of the «
Prometheus » project, The software development ERP that has been
described two years ago at BorCon. The bricks are almost all available,
the only things missing are a reporting portail and a modeling layer in
deployment. Borland is working on it and should release something in
2007. With respect to the initial Prometheus project, some concepts have
changed since then, for instance in packaging or even in ALM (ALM 2.0 is
talked of today). It is likely, according to Bruno de Combiens from
Borland France, that we will see a Core SDP 2.0, which is thus likely to
change its name. The rumours about abandonning Core SDP had thus some
basis...
Towards Eclipse and Visual Studio
At CodeGear, on the development tools side, the situation will get
clearer. The subsidiarisation will have had the merit to save the
development branch. If it had stayed inside Borland, it would have
suffocated from lack of budget, as Borland does not have the finances to
invest in R&D for both ALM and IDEs. Subsidiarised but still in
Borland's playground, the branch gets back a running budget, taken from
the ALM one. But a reduced budget that does not allow it to develop
itsefl IDEs. From now on, development tools will be based either on
Eclipse or Visual Studio.
First result of this politic, JBuilder leaves the PrimeTime technical
base (written in Java and that has lasted since version 3.5 in 1997) and
topples today into the Eclipse platform with JBuilder 2007.
This politic also signs the stop of Delphi as an autonomous IDE. Next
versions will plugg themselves onto Visual Studio, as a new language of
the .Net platform. If the Delphi developers will most likely be get
disoriented, the advantage is that Delphi on Visual Studio will allow as
befre to develop either for .NET, or for Windows thanks to the support
of the VCL Library.
Delphi, as a product, has been renamed to Borland Developer Studio (BDS)
and integrates the C++, Delphi and C# languages. These three languages
support the VCL. Which implies that in the future versions, C++ and C#
will respectively use the native C++ and C# compilers from Microsoft but
will continue to benefit from the VCL. A version of BDS under Visual
Studio with a Vista comaptible VCL is expected in 2007.
In the absence of market opportunities, Kylix, the Delphi for Linux will
most likely be abandonned.
CodeGear's effort will now have to focus on a differentiation of its
products on Eclipse and Visual Studio from the competition. With the
handicap of a still unknown name in the community, even if Borland's
shadow still lingers behind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope this helps.
Cheers
geikelite
"John Kaster (CodeGear)" <jo...@codegear.com> wrote
> geikelite wrote:
>
>> She now appears to the the lead-tech or all-hands person of CodeGear.
>
> She works for our PR agency.
>
:)
Yes John, I knew that (and I was betting on Johnnie knowing that also).
The point being, she is the only person that I can tell is associated with
the new Company CodeGear, at least from looking at the Company's website, so
I was telling Johnnie to check with her to determine the company's official
policy on formatting of CodeGear employee names in newsgroups ( [..] vs.
(..) ). Surely there is an official policy on such important matters.
Cheers.
Johnnie Norsworthy
news:4572...@newsgroups.borland.com...
(snip)
> I was telling Johnnie to check with her to determine the company's
> official policy on formatting of CodeGear employee names in newsgroups (
> [..] vs. (..) ). Surely there is an official policy on such important
> matters.
If not - we're all doomed!
Fred Derf
> > I was telling Johnnie to check with her to determine the company's
> > official policy on formatting of CodeGear employee names in
> > newsgroups ( [..] vs. (..) ). Surely there is an official policy
> > on such important matters.
>
> If not - we're all doomed!
I think that this is the most accurate:
Borland.CodeGear[DavidDean]
Didier Gasser-Morlay
> Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
>
>>> Does any of this forum contributors know anything on this subject ?
>> I do, and it is totally false.
>
> Does any of this forum contributors know if Nick is telling the truth?
Isn't that a tad offensive remark ?
I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt what Nick says. He has no track
record of lying. He comes across a guy who calls a spade a spade, and if
he could not comment on something or does not know an answer to
something he always said so.
Both he and Michael Swindell have been /very clear/ in their answers.
And if you still have one shadow of a doubt, pause for a second : where
would be Codegear's interest to lie on such a matter? That's beyond me !
On the other hand having a journalist getting something completely wrong
or backwards wouldn't exactly be earth-shattering news would it ? :).
Didier
Didier Gasser-Morlay
the website, my own answer is waiting to be vetted.
Something I mentioned in my answer is that the tone of the last few
articles on Borland/CodeGear has been rather negative and fwiw, (and if
France is an important market for CodeGear, which I do not know),
CodeGear might benefit from a frank face to face with the editor in
chief of this "specialist" journal to find out why
All the best
Didier
insert name
> The point being, she is the only person that I can tell is associated with
> the new Company CodeGear, at least from looking at the Company's website
She is going to be busy, if she is doing PR, development, marketing, and
working as CEO ! :-) I hope they pay her millions !
But seriously, geikelite has a good point. Right now, Codegear looks
like a one-employee company.
Bob Dawson
> Oh yeah, and it also says that the next version of C++ will use
> Microsoft's compiler but keeping the benefit of the VCL...
> And there is no "conditional" here, it is stated as a fact.
Which--like the comment that C# supports VCL--should have tipped off anybody
reading it that the article is a fraud.
bobD
Bob Dawson
>only *references* another interview with Michael Schwindel [sic].
Does it really get the spelling wrong like that?
bobD
John Kaster (CodeGear)
> Right now, Codegear looks like a one-employee company.
That will be remedied shortly.
John Kaster (CodeGear)
> even if Borland's shadow still lingers behind.
Wow. What a depressing article. That person should be contributed to
the FUD on the newsgroups :/
Thanks for the translation.
OBones
Well, it might have, but it's not anymore.
OBones
> OBones wrote:
>
>> even if Borland's shadow still lingers behind.
>
> Wow. What a depressing article. That person should be contributed to
> the FUD on the newsgroups :/
Yeah, I know. Well, to be fair, and now that I think of it, the verb
"linger" might be a bit too strong. The French verb literally means
"glide" as in "flying with no engine". But when I translated, I was not
sure that "gliding" could apply to a shadow, while I knew "linger" can.
And the idea is quite the same as a "gliding shadow" can be menacing in
some ways.
> Thanks for the translation.
No worries.
Philippe Auphelle
> anyway to comment on the article. Is there?
Nick,
There is actually a way to answer.
It's a beige box at the end of each page of the article that says
"Join lemondeinformatique.fr, comment this article".
This is followed by a link ("Number of coments posted (2) - read all the
comments") that allows reading the current follow up posts. No need to
be registered to read those posts.
As I'm writing this, there are two posts there, and both indicate that
the "Delphi integrated into VS" is wrong.
The first one is addressed to "Monsieur Tran" and quotes Michael
Swindell writing:
"To be very clear: we are *not* integrating Delphi into Visual Studio.
We are not moving any of our developer studio into Visual Studio. I'm
not clear where this information came from and will investigate.
thanks for the heads up!
Michael"
The second one mention that this "Delphi integration into VS" is pure
speculation, and mentions he would like to know what could be the
interest of the author in this "information".
Finally, the worse part of this story is that this article also contains
an interview of Michael Swindell. Of course, the interview never
mentions anything about Delphi and Visual Studio (the only facts there
are about the JBuilder / Eclipse integration, and have been released for
a while).
But to the unaware reader, that interview seems to give credibility to
the Delphi / VS phony information that goes along with it.
I just posted another follow up message with a quotation from your blog
and the corresponding link.
(http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges/archive/2006/12/02/30181.aspx)
I recalled your CodeGear title, and that of Michael Swindell (whose
denying quotation was submitted by a previous poster).
I also mentioned that when publishing information about the strategy of
the flag product of a company, the least that could be done was to
insure the information was accurate and to clearly indicate sources. And
concluded saying that I wouldn't dare thinking this could be
deliberately malevolent.
The confirmation of my posting said:
"Your comment has been saved, it will be published after reviewing by
the editorial team".
Gee, they have a reviewing process, after all!
Would you believe that? :) /Ph.
insert name
It is more likely that it would be believed unquestioningly, since in
France, Le Monde has the status that the New York Times has in the US.
ie: It is the "newspaper of record"
marc hoffman
>> only *references* another interview with Michael Schwindel [sic].
>
> Does it really get the spelling wrong like that?
well, then there was a hint right there that the whole article was a
huge schwindel ;P
--
marc
Philippe Auphelle
article, from Olivier Sannier / Obones, Didier Gasser-Morlay and myself.
(since I managed to double post mine :( , consider that 5 rather than 6).
But those follow up messages can only be seen by people who follow the
link below the article, so my feeling is that they will hardly be seen
at all by the folks reading the article, and for non-aware readers, the
FUD is out of the box. /Ph.
Didier Gasser-Morlay
process, the Editor in Chief, Olivier Rafal, added the following comment:
Bonjour à tous et merci de vos commentaires. J'ai demandé à Pierre Tran
de reprendre contact avec Borland France, qui l'avait renseigné pour cet
article, et Pierre devrait sous peu utiliser cet espace de commentaires
pour expliquer la façon dont il a procédé.
J'ai d'ores et déjà procédé à une modification, en accord avec Pierre.
Soyez assuré qu'il n'y a en tout cas aucune volonté de nuire de notre
part, ni à Borland ni à CodeGear.
Olivier Rafal
Rédacteur en chef lemondeinformatique.fr
Which is (loosely translated)
Hello all, and thanks for your comments. I have asked Pierre Tran to get
in touch with Borland France, who gave him the information for this
article in the first place. Pierre should use this comments space soon
to explain how he came to this.
In the meantime, and in agreement with Pierre, I have already amended
the article. Rest assured that it is not our intention to harm neither
Borland nor CodeGear.
<My personnal opinion>
That is good of him to say so, although I am, personally not convinced
that the rewrite is any better. But this is for CodeGear to comment, not me.
</my personnal opinion>
The modification is as follows:
N.B. : Cet article a été modifié le 04/12/06, le texte "Cette politique
signe également l'arrêt de Delphi en tant qu'IDE autonome. Les
prochaines versions viendront se greffer sur Visual Studio, comme un
nouveau langage de la plate-forme .NET." résultait d'une mauvaise
interprétation, et a été remplacé par "Cette politique signe également
l'abandon du moteur de l'IDE de Delphi. Comme cela l'avait déjà été
annoncé, les prochaines versions utiliseront Visual Studio comme socle
technique. Delphi continuera d'être commercialisé en tant que produit
autonome mais pourrait donc inclure un runtime de Visual Studio."
This article has been altered on 04/12/06. The text now reads
"This policy (ie CodeGear starting with a small budget, already moves
JBuilder to Eclipse NDT) also signals the end of Delphi's IDE engine. As
announced before the next versions will use Visual Studio as their
technical platform. Delphi will continue to be sold as a separate
product but may include a Visual Studio runtime"
Didier Gasser-Morlay
> You do,'t suppose the writer is confusing Delphi using the .NET runtime with
> using VS do you ?
>
> Joanna
>
Joanna,
My personal opinion about technical journalist :) set aside I do
suppose he his confusing just about everything with everything else.
More to the point, I believe the Editor-in-Chief is too, especially in
the light of the article so called "change". I hope these two get plenty
of egg on the face pretty soon. (and a full spanish tortilla would be
even better)
Before going any further in this discussion, I'll wait patiently until
Nick Hodges or Michael Swindell react.
Nick, Michael, being a French speaker, if I can be of help to help clear
the FUD, just say so. I'd be more than happy to help (as I am sure other
french speakers would)
Daniel Rail
"OBones" <obones_gfd_@_gfz_altern.org> wrote in message
news:4573...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I think "linger" is the better translation, but I think it could have been
translated as "with still being overshadowed by Borland". If you look at
the definition of "planer" in the "Petit Robert", you'll find that there is
one meaning of the verb which means "Constituer une présence menaçante".
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Rail
Senior Software Developer
ACCRA Solutions Inc.(www.accra.ca)
ACCRA Med Software Inc.(www.filopto.com)
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
news: 45742825$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
| N.B. : Cet article a été modifié le 04/12/06, le texte "Cette politique
| signe également l'arrêt de Delphi en tant qu'IDE autonome. Les
| prochaines versions viendront se greffer sur Visual Studio, comme un
| nouveau langage de la plate-forme .NET." résultait d'une mauvaise
| interprétation, et a été remplacé par "Cette politique signe également
| l'abandon du moteur de l'IDE de Delphi. Comme cela l'avait déjà été
| annoncé, les prochaines versions utiliseront Visual Studio comme socle
| technique. Delphi continuera d'être commercialisé en tant que produit
| autonome mais pourrait donc inclure un runtime de Visual Studio."
|
| This article has been altered on 04/12/06. The text now reads
|
| "This policy (ie CodeGear starting with a small budget, already moves
| JBuilder to Eclipse NDT) also signals the end of Delphi's IDE engine. As
| announced before the next versions will use Visual Studio as their
| technical platform. Delphi will continue to be sold as a separate
| product but may include a Visual Studio runtime"
You do,'t suppose the writer is confusing Delphi using the .NET runtime with
using VS do you ?
Joanna
--
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
Consultant Software Engineer
Bob Dawson
>
> It is more likely that it would be believed unquestioningly, since
> in France, Le Monde has the status that the New York Times
> has in the US. ie: It is the "newspaper of record"
I take it then that the standards of technical journalism in France are no
better than here. If I want to know about the technical direction of an IDE,
the NYT wouldn't be my first resource choice <g>.
bobD
Bob Dawson
>
> Hm, besides the article I wonder why C# cannot support VCL.NET ?
> Since VCL.NET is .NET wouldn't that be possible, if the VCL
> designer would support other languages too ?
At the level of assembly interop, yes, there's a great degree of mix-&-match
flexibility.
But "supporting VCL.NET" as a claim to me boils down to design-time support,
and that would require a designer that understands Delphi (properties of
TObject that Object doesn't have, and things like class helpers). CG would
have to do that work.
Additionally, the article was reported to have said that BCB would retain
the VCL while switching to the MS C++ compiler. That's just nonsense. Being
able to use Delphi code is a peculiar characteristic of the Borland C+
compiler: a set of extensions that allow the BCB compiler to understand and
use Delphi's object model. MS C++ simply doesn't have this capability--it's
a non-standard extension/modification. CodeGear can't run VCL on any C++
compiler but its own.
bobD
Didier Gasser-Morlay
Fortunatly "Le Monde" which holds the highly regarded status described
here and "Le Monde Informatique" are NOT the same company and do not
hold the same status.
That being said, don't we all tend to believe something
printed/broadcasted ?
Didier
OBones
> "This policy (ie CodeGear starting with a small budget, already moves
> JBuilder to Eclipse NDT) also signals the end of Delphi's IDE engine. As
> announced before the next versions will use Visual Studio as their
> technical platform. Delphi will continue to be sold as a separate
> product but may include a Visual Studio runtime"
LOL, this is not changing anything. And "as previously said"... by who ?
OBones
I just posted a comment telling them it's not changing anything, we'll
see how that goes.
OBones
> Nick, Michael, being a French speaker, if I can be of help to help clear
> the FUD, just say so. I'd be more than happy to help (as I am sure other
> french speakers would)
Same here.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Gee, they have a reviewing process, after all!
> Would you believe that? :) /Ph.
Hehe --
Thanks for following up.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> I have asked Pierre Tran to get in touch with Borland France,
The problem is that he needs to get a hold of /CodeGear/ France, not
Borland France.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Nick, Michael, being a French speaker, if I can be of help to help
> clear the FUD, just say so. I'd be more than happy to help (as I am
> sure other french speakers would)
Please ask him to contact
Ludo Neveu -- lneveu at codegear dot com
He needs to speak to a CodeGear person, not a Borland person.
Didier Gasser-Morlay
> Didier Gasser-Morlay wrote:
>
>> I have asked Pierre Tran to get in touch with Borland France,
>
> The problem is that he needs to get a hold of /CodeGear/ France, not
> Borland France.
>
Didier Gasser-Morlay
> Didier Gasser-Morlay wrote:
>
>> Nick, Michael, being a French speaker, if I can be of help to help
>> clear the FUD, just say so. I'd be more than happy to help (as I am
>> sure other french speakers would)
>
> Please ask him to contact
>
> Ludo Neveu -- lneveu at codegear dot com
>
> He needs to speak to a CodeGear person, not a Borland person.
>
I have sent Mr Tran and Mr Rafal an email with Ludo Neveu's details but
may be Mr Neveu should try and one of them quickly:
Pierre Tran : koti at idg dot fr.
Olivier Rafal: orafal at idg dot fr
All the best
Didier
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Pierre Tran : koti at idg dot fr.
> Olivier Rafal: orafal at idg dot fr
Didier --
Thanks very, very much. I've forwarded on this info to the right
people.
Bob Dawson
>
> That being said, don't we all tend to believe something
> printed/broadcasted ?
Not here <g>. And especially not in an election year... <vbg>
bobD
Johnnie Norsworthy
news:4574451d$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> The problem is that he needs to get a hold of /CodeGear/ France, not
> Borland France.
Wow; does CodeGear have their own exclusive offices worldwide? That seems
like a huge expense.
Or do they just partner with local vendors of multiple product lines for
sales and support?
Maybe some of this information will be on the web site when it progresses.
Just curious about the "CodeGear" way things are going to be done.
-Johnnie
Didier Gasser-Morlay
Chief of leMondeInformatique has posted the following:
Nous sommes en train de rassembler les sources et de les étudier. En
attendant, je fais confiance à mon journaliste. Car s'il y a quelque
chose que je sais après toutes ces années dans la presse informatique,
c'est qu'il y a autant de vérités que de fournisseurs et de stratégies
marketing.
J'ai par ailleurs laissé un message au responsable Europe de CodeGear
pour organiser un entretien.
J'espère pouvoir réaliser une synthèse rapidement.
Olivier Rafal
Rédacteur en chef lemondeinformatique.fr
"We are currently collating the different sources and are studying them.
In the meantime I trust my journalist, as if there is something I know
after so many years in the IT press is that there are as many truth as
there are suppliers and marketing strategy.
I have in the meantime left a message with the Head of European market
at CodeGear to organise an interview.
I hope that I will quickly be able to provide a roundup of all the
informations
Olivier Rafal
Editor in Chief lemondeinformatique.fr
I think that is a pretty decent answer.
Didier
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> You can access VCL.NET from C#, and maybe any other
> managed language. They are .NET Assemblies just like WinForms.
> That is, unless Borland has managed to do something to make
> it incompatible with other .NET languages.
No, you can, and it works, but it's a bit odd. Without compiler
support for class helpers and virtual constructors, your C# code will
end up looking like neither C# nor Delphi. But yes, it does work.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
How to ask questions the smart way:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Andre Kaufmann
> "Andre Kaufmann" wrote
[...]
> Additionally, the article was reported to have said that BCB would retain
> the VCL while switching to the MS C++ compiler. That's just nonsense. Being
> able to use Delphi code is a peculiar characteristic of the Borland C+
> compiler: a set of extensions that allow the BCB compiler to understand and
> use Delphi's object model. MS C++ simply doesn't have this capability--it's
> a non-standard extension/modification. CodeGear can't run VCL on any C++
> compiler but its own.
Though I'm programming mainly C++ programs, I wouldn't prefer C++ for
GUI development.
So yes I would agree, it's nonsense.
> bobD
Andre
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> The text now reads
>
> "This policy (ie CodeGear starting with a small budget, already moves
> JBuilder to Eclipse NDT) also signals the end of Delphi's IDE engine.
> As announced before the next versions will use Visual Studio as their
> technical platform. Delphi will continue to be sold as a separate
> product but may include a Visual Studio runtime"
Sounds to me like they're trying to say that Delphi will be using the
.NET SDK (including the WinForms designer), and the .NET runtime.
This is news?
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]