ECO for VS questions

[Oleg Zhukov]

Hi all,

1) What are the rough predictions for the release time? In 1-2 months
or 2-5 months or more?

2) Will it have the same set of features as the RAD Studio version does?
What about the modeling tier - are you planning to substitute Together
with something new?

The answers are extremely vital for the community, you know.

Thank you,
--
Oleg Zhukov

[Dmitriy Nagirnyak]

Hello Venkatesh,

> while I have nothing against VS, I would like CapableObjects to make
> the Delphi version really a rock solid one with very good
> documentation,examples etc.

There should be nothing to do with Delphi.NET, C#, VB.NET, J# or whatever.
ECO is just a .NET based Fremework, no matter in which language you use it.
If you want - use Delphi, if you want - C#.
Not really matters what IDE - want VS - take it. Want BDS - your choice.

Even more, as I can see (from post on this NG) CapableObjects team use VS
and C# to develop ECO which is reasonable.
But basic idea is it doesn't really matter what language or IDE you want
to use.
It's all about .NET :)

> If they go for both at the same time, it will affect both the
> platforms
> adversely

There are no BOTH paltforms. There's only one platform and it is .NET Framework
2.0.
The problem with ECO I can think is it was tightly integrated with BDS and
they (ECO Team) should make it independent from BDS.

And they do it.
But the same time nothing will be lost in BDS.
It's just because of it's all about .NET Framework :)

I might be wrong in some thesises, but you should get the idea.

Cheers.
Dmitriy Nagirnyak
http://dcportal.argocomputing.com.au
http://dnagir.blogspot.com

[VT Venkatesh]

Hi Oleg

while I have nothing against VS, I would like CapableObjects to make
the Delphi version really a rock solid one with very good
documentation,examples etc.

Once they publish this road map & stick to it , I am sure they will be
able to make it to VS /publish the road map.

If they go for both at the same time, it will affect both the platforms
adversely

Venkatesh

[Oleg Zhukov]

Hi Dmitriy,

Nice to see you taking an active part in most discussions :)

"Dmitriy Nagirnyak" <nagir_at_argocomputing_com_au> wrote:

> But basic idea is it doesn't really matter what language or IDE you want
> to use.
> It's all about .NET :)

If it's all the same, why isn't the ECO for VS version out still? :)
My guess ECO team is rebuilding the modeling tier to integrate well into
VS, which takes much time. May be some other time-consuming tasks
should be fulfilled to integrate ECO into VS.

--
Oleg Zhukov

[VT Venkatesh]

Dmitriy Nagirnyak wrote:

> And they do it.
> But the same time nothing will be lost in BDS.
> It's just because of it's all about .NET Framework :)
>

I would like to know what CapableObjects feels about the whole issue
Venkatesh

[Oleg Zhukov]

Hi Venkatesh,

"VT Venkatesh" <ve...@vsnl.com> wrote:

> Hi Oleg
> while I have nothing against VS, I would like CapableObjects to make the
> Delphi version really a rock solid one with very good
> documentation,examples etc.

As Dimitry said, IDE should matter little, and a "rock solid" ECO in
Rad Studio should be just as good in VS, so I would share your wishes :)

--
Oleg Zhukov

[Peter Morris]

> I would like to know what CapableObjects feels about the whole issue

With regards to what exactly?

[VT Venkatesh]

Peter Morris wrote:
>> I would like to know what CapableObjects feels about the whole issue
>
> With regards to what exactly?
>
>

With regard to road map for ECO for VS & BDS
Venkatesh

[Jan Norden (ECO group]]

Oleg Zhukov wrote:

We do realize the need for these answers, and I will answer as best I
can, with the usual caveats about predicting the future.

As you know the ECO behaves exactly the same at runtime independent of
which IDE it is developed in, so it is entirely a qestion of IDE
integration.

There is a big difference between:
A) a product that can be given to an experienced ECO user that needs to
move to VS

B) a product that can be given to a VS.net developer that has not seen
the concept before.

I expect a limited Beta "A)" to ship within a week. It will only be
given to users that are already familiar with ECO and Modelmaker, and
who regard IDE support as nice, but can write the code themselves if
need be.

And I expect a general Beta to be available a few weeks after that.

As for the actually shipping, I would guess that the full product, i.e.
B) above will ship in 2-3 months.

Which of course begs the question if and how we should ship to those
that only need A), and want it yesterday. We want to support our
current users, but don't want to ruin the first impression for new
users.

We will discuss this next week, I am sure we will find a solution.

As for the modeling we are currently looking at two options, EcoModeler
is one of them.

For users in the A) timeframe EcoModeler is already available.

For B) it is less clear, it will become clearer in the next week or
two. But even if we do follow another path, we expect EcoModeler to
continue to be available as a third-party solution, and to be chosen by
many users, much as is the case with BDS and EcoModeler today.

--
Jan Norden, ECO Architect
CapableObjects AB
http://www.capableobjects.com

[Thomas Wolf]

Hi!

I would like to be one of the first of group A)

My ECOIII-WinForms-application is out for beta-test now. It would be very
interesting to see, if it runs with VS2005(.Net 2.0). The next components of
our old app I plan to port from Win32 to .Net will run with .Net 2 of
course.

Best regards
Thomas Wolf

[Peter Morris]

Ah, so you want to know their plans and not how they feel about their plans?
:-)

I don't think it will be much longer now.

[Oleg Zhukov]

Thank you Jan for the comprehensive reply and good news! As
always you're making all clear with your answers.

It's very nice that ECO team is preparing thoroughly for stepping into
VS market. And I (and each guy in this NG) really wish ECO win the
affection of many developers from group B (Indeed ECO is much
better than Entity Framework + Linq and whatever else :) .

As for me, I'm belonging to the group A too, and would like to put
myself on a waiting list after Thomas :)

Thanks,
--
Oleg Zhukov

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello Thomas,

> Hi!
>
> I would like to be one of the first of group A)

Make sure to sign up for the news letter on capableobjects.com.

--Jesper

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello Oleg Zhukov" ovzh_at_ yandex_dot_ru,

> If it's all the same, why isn't the ECO for VS version out still? :)

It's the design time bits, the designer and the model provider source that
take most of the time. Additional information in Jan's post in this very
thread.

--Jesper

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello VT,

> I would like to know what CapableObjects feels about the whole issue

Our intention is to support both VS and BDS. We're pretty well positioned
to make a VS version avalable for an alpha team real soon now (by the end
of next week), and a wider beta in about a month after that.

We feel that both BDS and VS are viable markets, and not having the advantage
of CodeGear as the guardian in VS-land we want to make sure we make an entry
worth taking notice of. We're not delaying things unnecessarily, trust you
me.

--Jesper

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello Oleg Zhukov" ovzh_at_ yandex_dot_ru,

> As Dimitry said, IDE should matter little, and a "rock solid" ECO in
> Rad Studio should be just as good in VS, so I would share your wishes

Sure, the run-time bits work well no matter what. The design time integration
is different and then there's the issue of a model provider.

As far as wishes go, I'd be really happy to see ECO get the same market share
in VS-land as BDS Architect has in Bor-land.

--Jesper

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello VT,

> while I have nothing against VS, I would like CapableObjects to make
> the Delphi version really a rock solid one with very good
> documentation,examples etc.

We have every intention to make the jourbey as pleasant as possible for users
of all denominations. The run time bits are identical, and every improvement
made by whatever source will benefit all environments.

Documentation too is identical across the board, so again whatever we do
to enhance the experience for one group wil benefit the other.

The main difference is the design time integration, and there only some parts.
The majority of effort will be identical for BDS and VS.

Thus, there is no need to worry that BDS users will be short changed when
we step into the VS arena - instead rather the opposite. The more people
who can help identify areas for improvement the better I'd say.

--Jesper

[VT Venkatesh]

Hi Jesper
Thanks for your answer.Though i am not a VS user at all I wish the ECO
team all the success in the VS domain
Venkatesh

[Dmitriy Nagirnyak]

Hello Oleg,

> Nice to see you taking an active part in most discussions :)
>

I'm trying to help others if I can.
But I also like to have some philosophy here :)

>> It's all about .NET :)
> If it's all the same, why isn't the ECO for VS version out still? :)

But you could use even ECOIII in VS.
You could create model in BDS and Reference it in VS.
Didn't you?
If answer is yes, then ECO for VS is available for a long time :)
But other problem is modeling and IDE integration.
1. Modeling - available in BDS only. (VS or BDS IDE)+EcoModeler is always
available. There's a choise.
2. IDE integration - tight in BDS, none in VS. If you can live without desinger,
it should not be so hard to use ECO in VS.

> My guess ECO team is rebuilding the modeling tier to integrate well
> into VS, which takes much time.

It sounds truthy :)

[William Wong]

"Oleg Zhukov" <ovzh_at_ yandex_dot_ru> wrote in message
news:472b375f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...

IDE does matter a LOT for me since the Delphi .NET IDE (BDS 2006) constantly
modify (delete ECO components) for me due to error in parsing the source?
This is the main reason why I choose C# in all other ECO projects which work
like a charm. Please, the ECO team please make sure the IDE in future is a
bug free one.

William

[jesper hogstrom]

Hello William,

> Please, the ECO team
> please make sure the IDE in future is a bug free one.

We do work with the IDE team to eliminate all bugs that impact the ECO user
experience. Typically those bugs are very hard to reproduce and debug, so
we much appreciate all your efforts in helping out with that.

--Jesper

[Slava Barouline]

I would expect worse performance due to .NET 2.0

If you are in Beta already, I would recommend not to rush into ECO IV just
yet
;-)

We are in Alpha, Beta is in 2 months
;-)

[Thomas Wolf]

"Slava Barouline" wrote:
>I would expect worse performance due to .NET 2.0
>

Really??? What is slow there? Loading/Saving from/to database or in-memory
actions of the EcoSpace (subscriptions/OCL)?

> If you are in Beta already, I would recommend not to rush into ECO IV just
> yet
> ;-)
>

Yes, of course, but the next components of the old app I have to rewrite I
would like to do in .Net 2.0

> We are in Alpha, Beta is in 2 months
> ;-)

OK

Thanks for the annswers!

Thomas

[Slava Barouline]

Mostly the loading of Forms is slower
Didn't notice the difference in ECO performance yet

[Michael Danninger]

> A) a product that can be given to an experienced ECO user that needs to
> move to VS
>
> B) a product that can be given to a VS.net developer that has not seen
> the concept before.
>
> I expect a limited Beta "A)" to ship within a week. It will only be
> given to users that are already familiar with ECO and Modelmaker, and
> who regard IDE support as nice, but can write the code themselves if
> need be.

Hi Jan!

I am definitely an A-type developer ;-) I have to move on with my winforms -
ECOII application to VS. How can i get a "limited Beta A"?

Thanks, Michael

[Jonas Hogstrom]

> I am definitely an A-type developer ;-) I have to move on with my
> winforms - ECOII application to VS. How can i get a "limited Beta A"?

See http://capableobjects.com/node/88

/Jonas

--

[Michael Danninger]

>
> See http://capableobjects.com/node/88
>
> /Jonas
>

Very good news!
Thanks, Michael