Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

Thomas Conley

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Mar 26, 2006, 9:51:53 AM3/26/06

to

Take a look at this job posting. $35/hr for PLX programmers (for the I/O
subsystem, no less!). You gotta be kidding me.

XXX is in need of a PLX Programmer for one of our top clients in
Poughkeepsie, NY.
Skills required:
PLX Programming skills (Very important as that is what the code is written
in)
OS/390 skills (MVS) Experience (Equally important as this is the operating
system that the code will run under).
S390 eServer hardware and millicode knowledge (Important as this is what the
code is manipulating).
Architecture Verification skills- Must be able to read and interpret
architecture documents, technical specs so to speak, and be able to write
code (in PLX) to stress and test that architecture
Working knowledge or experience with S/390 eServer Channel I/O architecture
and I/O devices (All of this work deals with I/O not CPU)

Duration: Until 12/31/05 w/ possibility of extension
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Shift: 1st shift, Monday-Friday
Compensation: $35/hr or $61,000 depending on benefits needed)

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Steve Comstock

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Mar 26, 2006, 10:00:59 AM3/26/06

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Thomas Conley wrote:
> Take a look at this job posting. $35/hr for PLX programmers (for the
> I/O subsystem, no less!). You gotta be kidding me.
>
>

[snip]

Maybe it's an indication of how important IBM thinks
z/OS is to its future. Another indicator, to me,
that they are not serious about sustaining and
growing the platform.

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock

Stephen M. Wiegand

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Mar 26, 2006, 10:48:34 AM3/26/06

to

At 09:51 AM 03/26/2006, you wrote:
>Take a look at this job posting. $35/hr for PLX programmers (for
>the I/O subsystem, no less!). You gotta be kidding me.
>

Based on the description, this sounds like requiring a brain surgeon
and paying them LPN wages! Anyway, what is PLX? Never heard of it.

Steve Wiegand

Charles Mills

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Mar 26, 2006, 11:33:30 AM3/26/06

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PL/X is a vaguely PL/I-like (I'm SURE someone will have to correct me on
this) language that is used internally by IBM. Much of z/OS is written in
PL/X. PL/X has systems programming features such as being able to drop into
assembler. IBM has never released PL/X as a customer product but they have
shipped the compiler at various times under limited circumstances - it was
available to 3rd party developers for a while.

To see some PL/X, take a look at almost any of the OS macros. Roughly half
the code is familiar assembly/macro language - the other half, the code that
looks unfamiliar and PL/I-like, is PL/X.

Charles

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@ibm-main.lst
Of Stephen M. Wiegand
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:48 AM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

At 09:51 AM 03/26/2006, you wrote:
>Take a look at this job posting. $35/hr for PLX programmers (for
>the I/O subsystem, no less!). You gotta be kidding me.
>

Based on the description, this sounds like requiring a brain surgeon
and paying them LPN wages! Anyway, what is PLX? Never heard of it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Efinn...@ibm-main.lst

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Mar 26, 2006, 1:25:54 PM3/26/06

to

In a message dated 3/26/2006 10:33:39 A.M. Central Standard Time,
char...@MCN.ORG writes:

To see some PL/X, take a look at almost any of the OS macros. Roughly half
the code is familiar assembly/macro language - the other half, the code that
looks unfamiliar and PL/I-like, is PL/X.

>>
There was big stinko at one of the SHAREs mid eighties. Chevron
had written PL/S and was willing to part with it to 'broaden the base'.
Think it was RAND decided this was definite mainframe fertilizer and were willing
to act as distributer(GMC 626
manure spreader comes to mind). Anyway they were passing out mini-reels and
giving sessions left and right on Monday and Tuesday and about Wednesday
became deathly quiet. Turns out couldn't give out any manuals to go with it
'cause they were all copyrighted.

Even our backwoods state legislature divies up the number of scholarships
based on projected needs. Whether it's doctors, lawyers, scientists, nurses or
teachers.

Ed Gould

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Mar 26, 2006, 3:30:34 PM3/26/06

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On Mar 26, 2006, at 12:25 PM, Ed Finnell wrote:

> ------------------
> SNIP-------------------------------------------------

>>>
> There was big stinko at one of the SHAREs mid eighties. Chevron
> had written PL/S and was willing to part with it to 'broaden the
> base'.
> Think it was RAND decided this was definite mainframe fertilizer
> and were willing
> to act as distributer(GMC 626
> manure spreader comes to mind). Anyway they were passing out mini-
> reels and
> giving sessions left and right on Monday and Tuesday and about
> Wednesday
> became deathly quiet. Turns out couldn't give out any manuals to
> go with it
> 'cause they were all copyrighted.

------------------SNIP--------------------------------------------------

At GUIDE it was offered on a 2400' reel I didn't have one handy (like
who carries a reel of tape around with them when they travel?)
I got the business card from the guy at Rand and promptly sent off a
full tape the week following GUIDE. I do remember there was a fuss
about IBM and the manual, but I thought the manual was on the tape, no?

I never heard back (I forgot about it). The next mini GUIDE(IIRC) is
when we heard about the **** hitting the fan. I am pretty sure this
was an Anahiem.

Ed

Efinn...@ibm-main.lst

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Mar 26, 2006, 3:56:26 PM3/26/06

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In a message dated 3/26/2006 2:30:46 P.M. Central Standard Time,
edg...@AMERITECH.NET writes:

full tape the week following GUIDE. I do remember there was a fuss
about IBM and the manual, but I thought the manual was on the tape, no?

>>
I never got my hands on one. I was doing ISPF something or other
and by the time I got wind of it the sails were all furled...

rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst

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Mar 26, 2006, 7:35:16 PM3/26/06

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Jeez, (IIRC) I still remember it being PL/C.

Randy Hudson

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Mar 26, 2006, 9:18:20 PM3/26/06

to

In article <000901c650e4$cb604f50$6401...@frontiernet.net>,
Thomas Conley <pinn...@ibm-main.lst> wrote:

> Take a look at this job posting. $35/hr for PLX programmers (for the I/O
> subsystem, no less!). You gotta be kidding me.

It's probably a proof-of-shortage ad for an employment visa. IBM runs the
ad, gets no qualified respondents, and thus can document the need to hire a
non-citizen for the job,

--
Randy Hudson

Graeme Gibson

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Mar 26, 2006, 9:23:27 PM3/26/06

to

Originally BSL (Basic Systems Language) which morphed into PL/S
(Programming Language/Systems) and finally PL/X (... /X(cross)
platform?). The inline assembler ("GENERATE") capability was prone
to abuse in the early days, for quite a while we saw PL/S programs
that consisted of 10,000 lines of assembler wrapped in GENERATE / ENDGEN. :-)

At one time ISTR that Fujitsu(?) were distributing a PL/S.

PWD members were at one time able to get PL/S (or PL/X?) on an asis
basis w/out support for I think USD500 onetime.

google: [ IBM PL/S generate assembler endgen ]
threw up a hit titled:
<http://www.mainframeforum.com/showthread.php?s=d6262087ecc7af587452db75b9e2e12e&goto=lastpost&forumid=927>Mainframeforum
- PL/X Anyone
.but you'll have to use Google's cached copy as the original is gone.

Take care all,
Graeme.

Tom Schmidt

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Mar 26, 2006, 11:12:08 PM3/26/06

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On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:33:18 -0500, Richard Tsujimoto wrote:

>Jeez, (IIRC) I still remember it being PL/C.

No, PL/C was Cornell University's student PL/1 compiler.
(I remember it, too; Waterloo had it as one of their batch compilers, as
did ISU and many other colleges and universities around the world.)

The PL/X genealogy included PL/S and PL/AS, but not PL/C.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

John P Baker

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Mar 26, 2006, 11:20:01 PM3/26/06

to

PL/C was an interesting compiler.

It provided the capability to correct many common coding errors.

Unfortunately, there was no guarantee that it would correct the coding error
in the way you might expect.

You could actually give PL/C no input. I would then detect the lack of a
"MAIN" procedure and would then build a dummy "MAIN" procedure.

John P Baker
Software Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@ibm-main.lst
Of Tom Schmidt
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 23:12
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

Timothy Sipples

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Mar 27, 2006, 1:16:22 AM3/27/06

to

I didn't see the original Web address for this PLX job posting. Here's one
instance:

http://www.net-temps.com/job/2ow6/PLX-POK/plx_programmer_ex_ibmers.html

With respect to the conclusions one could draw, here they are:

1. Somebody is (was?) looking for a PLX programmer.
2. Somebody would have made a nice profit at that asking price.

With respect to the educated guesses beyond that, here they are:

3. At that asking price, somebody probably didn't find a PLX programmer.

:-)

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: Timothy...@us.ibm.com

Shane

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Mar 27, 2006, 6:06:14 AM3/27/06

to

> With respect to the conclusions one could draw, here they are:
>
> 1. Somebody is (was?) looking for a PLX programmer.
> 2. Somebody would have made a nice profit at that asking price.
>
> With respect to the educated guesses beyond that, here they are:
>
> 3. At that asking price, somebody probably didn't find a PLX programmer.

4. Kite-flying exercise successfully concluded, local Congressman gets
petitioned that no Americans have the necessary skill-set, and so cheap
resources should be allowed to be imported.

Cynic ??? - who, where ...

Shane ...

James Smith

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Mar 27, 2006, 6:50:15 AM3/27/06

to

Also not fair to totally point the finger at IBM who are probably paying, AT
LEAST, double the money being quoted.

I believe head-hunters, or at least the ones I have spoken with, in North
America have as much integrity of your average lawyer.

Jim S

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@ibm-main.lst
Of Shane
Sent: 27 March 2006 19:06
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

Steve Comstock

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Mar 27, 2006, 8:47:18 AM3/27/06

to

Shane wrote:
>>With respect to the conclusions one could draw, here they are:
>>
>>1. Somebody is (was?) looking for a PLX programmer.
>>2. Somebody would have made a nice profit at that asking price.
>>
>>With respect to the educated guesses beyond that, here they are:
>>
>>3. At that asking price, somebody probably didn't find a PLX programmer.
>
>
> 4. Kite-flying exercise successfully concluded, local Congressman gets
> petitioned that no Americans have the necessary skill-set, and so cheap
> resources should be allowed to be imported.
>
> Cynic ??? - who, where ...

Not at all. Very perceptive.

>
> Shane ...

And from an Aussie, too! Way to go! I am not as
knowledgable about politics in Oz as you are about
politics here.

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock

Chase, John

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Mar 27, 2006, 9:28:31 AM3/27/06

to

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Comstock
>
> Shane wrote:
> >>With respect to the conclusions one could draw, here they are:
> >>
> >>1. Somebody is (was?) looking for a PLX programmer.
> >>2. Somebody would have made a nice profit at that asking price.
> >>
> >>With respect to the educated guesses beyond that, here they are:
> >>
> >>3. At that asking price, somebody probably didn't find a PLX
programmer.
> >
> > 4. Kite-flying exercise successfully concluded, local Congressman
gets
> > petitioned that no Americans have the necessary skill-set, and so
> > cheap resources should be allowed to be imported.
> >
> > Cynic ??? - who, where ...
>
> Not at all. Very perceptive.
>

> And from an Aussie, too! Way to go! I am not as knowledgable
> about politics in Oz as you are about politics here.

When was the last time you heard an Aussie politician running around the
world, pounding his chest and hollering, "We are the 5,000-ton
gorilla!"?

-jc-

rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst

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Mar 27, 2006, 9:31:40 AM3/27/06

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Right. Right. It was PL/S.

Tom Schmidt <Tom.S...@OASSOFTWARE.COM>
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
03/26/2006 11:12 PM
Please respond to
IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

To
IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

Thomas Conley

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Mar 27, 2006, 9:45:24 AM3/27/06

to

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Smith" <jam...@ibm-main.lst>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 6:50 AM
Subject: RE: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

> Also not fair to totally point the finger at IBM who are probably paying,
> AT
> LEAST, double the money being quoted.
>
> I believe head-hunters, or at least the ones I have spoken with, in North
> America have as much integrity of your average lawyer.
>
> Jim S
>
>

Jim,

They're not. The latest matrix price I saw for this position was $50.

Regards,
Tom Conley

ly...@garlic.com

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:26:47 AM3/27/06

to

rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst wrote:
> No, PL/C was Cornell University's student PL/1 compiler.
> (I remember it, too; Waterloo had it as one of their batch compilers, as
> did ISU and many other colleges and universities around the world.)
>
> The PL/X genealogy included PL/S and PL/AS, but not PL/C.

posting in pl/s, et al thread in this n.g. from a couple years ago
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#46 PL/? History

wikipedia entry for pl/c
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/C

another pl/i subset was pl.8 developed as part of 801/risc project.
cp.r was written in pl.8. misc. posts mentioning 801, pl.8, cp.r, romp,
rios, power, power/pc, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801

and for some drift, a recent post mentioning wikipedia and power/pc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#6 64-bit architectures & 32-bit
instructions

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:29:54 AM3/27/06

to

----------------------------------------------------------------------

rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:36:55 AM3/27/06

to

Sorry, that wasn't me who said it was a PL/1 compiler.

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@GARLIC.COM>

Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

03/27/2006 10:29 AM

Please respond to
IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

To
IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

Ray Mullins

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Mar 27, 2006, 11:28:27 AM3/27/06

to

I saw the original posting on the official IBM jobs web site a while ago.
IIRC, there was no mention of salary or band.

Personally, having read enough listings and z/VSE Optional source over the
years, along with some experience with PL/I, I think I'd come up to speed
pretty quickly with PL/X. But I'm not moving to Pok any time soon. :-)

Later,
Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List

> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples
> Sent: Sunday March 26 2006 22:20
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?
>

> I didn't see the original Web address for this PLX job
> posting. Here's one
> instance:
>
> http://www.net-temps.com/job/2ow6/PLX-POK/plx_programmer_ex_ib
> mers.html
>
> With respect to the conclusions one could draw, here they are:
>
> 1. Somebody is (was?) looking for a PLX programmer.
> 2. Somebody would have made a nice profit at that asking price.
>
> With respect to the educated guesses beyond that, here they are:
>
> 3. At that asking price, somebody probably didn't find a PLX
> programmer.
>
> :-)
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil Payne

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Mar 27, 2006, 2:56:31 PM3/27/06

to

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4850652.stm

"US President George W Bush has used a naturalisation ceremony in Washington to boost his
calls for a guest-worker programme.

Mr Bush swore in new US citizens at the event, amid growing protests over plans to criminalise
undocumented workers.

He wants to allow foreigners to stay for a set time in specific jobs, but his Republican Party
is divided."

--
Phil Payne
http://www.isham-research.co.uk
+44 7833 654 800

Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.

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Mar 27, 2006, 4:48:39 PM3/27/06

to

In
<OF4DC5069C.8D3E7BD5-ON852571...@cusa.canon.com>,
on 03/26/2006
at 07:33 PM, Richard Tsujimoto
<rtsujimoto...@CUSA.CANON.COM> said:

>Jeez, (IIRC) I still remember it being PL/C.

BSL, PL/S, PL/X and a few others, but not PL/C.

PL/C was a Cornell student compiler. It was fast, but I had students
who resorted to the "optimizing" compiler to find errors that they
couldn't with PL/C.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

Peter Flass

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Mar 27, 2006, 6:27:58 PM3/27/06

to

ly...@garlic.com wrote:
> rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst wrote:
>
>>No, PL/C was Cornell University's student PL/1 compiler.
>>(I remember it, too; Waterloo had it as one of their batch compilers, as
>>did ISU and many other colleges and universities around the world.)
>>
>>The PL/X genealogy included PL/S and PL/AS, but not PL/C.
>
>
> posting in pl/s, et al thread in this n.g. from a couple years ago
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#46 PL/? History
>
> wikipedia entry for pl/c
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/C
>
> another pl/i subset was pl.8 developed as part of 801/risc project.
> cp.r was written in pl.8. misc. posts mentioning 801, pl.8, cp.r, romp,
> rios, power, power/pc, etc
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801

PL.8 was recently rebuilt using a front-end to GCC. Apparently it's
used fou ucode for z/series computers.

http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/483/gellerich.html

Boris Kiena

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Mar 27, 2006, 9:07:51 PM3/27/06

to

Rand's implementation of PL/S was called RL/S, came out in August of 1975.
They distributed it at either a Share/Guide back then - they passed out the
manuals at a session, and collected all but one at the end. The title was:
The Rand Computation Center: RL/S Language Refererance Manual,. R-1555/11
...

Was authored by R. Lawrence Clark, James Reiley and David Smith.

"Ed Gould" <edg...@ibm-main.lst> wrote in message
news:E11A4896-3483-4503...@ameritech.net...

Timothy Sipples

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Mar 28, 2006, 3:17:37 AM3/28/06

to

>>Also not fair to totally point the finger at IBM who are probably
paying,
>>AT LEAST, double the money being quoted.

>They're not. The latest matrix price I saw for this position was $50.

That's full time though, right? If you round to 2,000 hours annually
that's U.S. $100,000 plus benefits plus bonuses with a Poughkeepsie cost
of living, and that's not bad. I think that's a bit higher than for other
programming languages (e.g. BASIC), if the compensation surveys I've seen
are accurate.

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: Timothy...@us.ibm.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.

unread,

Mar 28, 2006, 7:33:29 AM3/28/06

to

In
<OF4DC5069C.8D3E7BD5-ON852571...@cusa.canon.com>,
on 03/26/2006
at 07:33 PM, Richard Tsujimoto
<rtsujimoto...@CUSA.CANON.COM> said:

>Jeez, (IIRC) I still remember it being PL/C.

BSL, PL/S, PL/X and a few others, but not PL/C.

PL/C was a Cornell student compiler. It was fast, but I had students
who resorted to the "optimizing" compiler to find errors that they
couldn't with PL/C.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas Conley

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Mar 28, 2006, 11:05:41 AM3/28/06

to

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Sipples" <timothy...@ibm-main.lst>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?

>>>Also not fair to totally point the finger at IBM who are probably
> paying,
>>>AT LEAST, double the money being quoted.
>>They're not. The latest matrix price I saw for this position was $50.
>
> That's full time though, right? If you round to 2,000 hours annually
> that's U.S. $100,000 plus benefits plus bonuses with a Poughkeepsie cost
> of living, and that's not bad. I think that's a bit higher than for other
> programming languages (e.g. BASIC), if the compensation surveys I've seen
> are accurate.
>
> - - - - -

Ennhhhhh, thank you for playing. The $50 goes to the pimp, who turns around
and maybe coughs up $35 to a W-2 who's paying for his own health care, etc.
Benefits? Bonuses? Maybe if you're an IBM employee, but not a consultant.
That's what I love about most full-timers. They look at the bill rate,
multiply by 2000 hours and think that's all there is. Never mind the health
care, the 15% Medicare and Social Security, disability insurance,
unemployment insurance, etc.

Regards,
Tom Conley

Ray Mullins

unread,

Mar 28, 2006, 11:16:00 AM3/28/06

to

It wouldn't surprise me if they're doing 1099 instead of W-2, which means
you're liable for your own benefits and taxes, which means that in reality
you're looking at about $55/60K take-home.

A ROT I remember from a while ago, and that was before medical insurance
went through the roof (interesting how the promise of HMOs to reduce health
care expenses never came true <g>): take your quoted salary and add 33% to
get what you really cost to a company.

Later,
Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples

> Sent: Tuesday March 28 2006 00:22
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Wonder why IBM code quality is suffering?
>

> >>Also not fair to totally point the finger at IBM who are probably
> paying,
> >>AT LEAST, double the money being quoted.
> >They're not. The latest matrix price I saw for this
> position was $50.
>
> That's full time though, right? If you round to 2,000 hours
> annually that's U.S. $100,000 plus benefits plus bonuses with
> a Poughkeepsie cost of living, and that's not bad. I think
> that's a bit higher than for other programming languages
> (e.g. BASIC), if the compensation surveys I've seen are accurate.
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

howard...@cusys.edu

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Mar 28, 2006, 12:03:23 PM3/28/06

to

On 28 Mar 2006 08:16:00 -0800, m...@ibm-main.lst (Ray Mullins) wrote:

>A ROT I remember from a while ago, and that was before medical insurance
>went through the roof (interesting how the promise of HMOs to reduce health
>care expenses never came true <g>): take your quoted salary and add 33% to
>get what you really cost to a company.

I always thought it was funny that people believe that we pay half of
our FICA tax, and our employers pay the other half. It all comes
from the same place - the cost of hiring you.

In the new global economy, we need to be more aware of who is paying
for costs and decide whether they are being paid the way we want. The
trouble with VAT is that they hide taxes, but just make business in
Europe more expensive.

In the U.S. we have socialized medicine with gaps - paid for by
businesses. We also have big companies paying for retirement with
Ponzi scheme promises to do so out of future growth. When my
company pays most of my health care, the effect on my employer is
similar to being taxed so that the state can pay most of my health
care. The question is - what is the effect on the job market?
Programming is more and more fungible all the time. Is it cheaper to
pay health care for employees or to pay the taxes that pay for health
care? I haven't seen that large companies are lobbying for tax-paid
socialized medicine to make them more competitive with foreign
companies. Instead they sub-contract out to companies without
medical plans. (remember when companies had janitors)?

Ted MacNEIL

unread,

Mar 28, 2006, 3:03:47 PM3/28/06

to

>take your quoted salary and add 33% to
get what you really cost to a company.

It's actually just over 40% in Ontario.
And, that's with me paying Ontario Health Premiums, which used to be covered by my employer.
-
-teD

I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in!

rtsujimoto...@ibm-main.lst

unread,

Mar 28, 2006, 3:10:10 PM3/28/06

to

Based on the recent cost-saving activities at GM, it was revealed that for
a worker making $30/hr, the actual cost to the company (which includes
pensions) is $60/hr.

Ted MacNEIL <tedma...@BELL.BLACKBERRY.NET>

Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>