<quote> The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
...
The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement."
</quote>
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Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!!
COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult to maintain.
Where do I start?
How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come up with a solution that would work with their existing system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few hundred grand?
Idiots!
On Tue Aug 5 14:38 , 'McKown, John' <John.Mck...@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> sent:
>The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, >which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many >college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
>...
>The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business >Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in >1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
>"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, >the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting >firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you >have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the >system until you're able to find a replacement."
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> -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Green > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM > To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't > handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
> Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!!
> COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult > to maintain.
> Where do I start?
> How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come > up with a solution that would work with their existing > system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few > hundred grand?
> Idiots!
Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind right now.
I think that most of the CA state employees now love COBOL. "I'd give you a pay cut, but our computer system refuses!" I found it very amusing.
-- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology
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> <quote> > The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, > which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many > college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
Huh? How does a pay cut exhaust a payroll system? What does that mean, to "exhaust a system"?
> ...
> The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business > Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in > 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, > the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting > firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you > have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the > system until you're able to find a replacement."
> </quote>
We can teach them young whippersnappers COBOL quickly. (But, of course, not for free!)
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<quote> Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification on an individual basis. </quote>
Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
-- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology
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> <quote> > [ snip ] > "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred > Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a > public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language > that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired > annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until > you're able to find a replacement."
> </quote>
And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as "Insultants"......
-jc-
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The Bee laid off their technology reporter - I heard they are having budget hard times. No wonder considering that they do such a poor job at tso many things. Except of course publishing the names and exact pay amounts of ALL state workers. ;-) What aqua morons - as some famous wabbit used to say...
> > [ snip ] > > "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred > > Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a > > public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language > > that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired > > annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until > > you're able to find a replacement."
> And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as > "Insultants"......
> -jc-
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On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:25:33 -0500, McKown, John wrote: >I missed this gem:
><quote> >Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is >time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification >on an individual basis. ></quote>
>Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to sell their new system.
-- Tom Marchant
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> -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:13 PM > To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't > handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:25:33 -0500, McKown, John wrote:
> >I missed this gem:
> ><quote> > >Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of > code, so it is > >time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job > classification > >on an individual basis. > ></quote>
> >Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
> I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to > sell their new > system.
> -- > Tom Marchant
That would be easier to believe. And those who know better are keeping their mouths shut. Reminds me of when I worked for a city government. I was told that it would be best if I never attended any city council meetings because somebody might notice and ask me a question about the computer systems.
-- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology
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> -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:13 PM > To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't > handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
<snip>
> >Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
> I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to > sell their new system.
> -- > Tom Marchant
<snip>
I smell a familiar stench.
Seems like a political ploy to gain support for bringing in offshore labor to do all that COBOL coding because those "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days".
The degree of BS just keeps gettin' PHD (i.e. Piled Higher & Deeper).
Bill Bass Senior Applications Developer United Health Care Greenville, SC
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--------------------------------<snip>--------------------------- Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! ----------------------------<unsnip>----------------------------- We all knew that politicians were basicly stupid; we just didn't know how bad the problem really was! :-))
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Perhaps I can add some clarity here. I worked for the California State Controller's office and was he primary technical support for it until I left in 1982, so I am very familiar with the system. I can confirm that most of it is written in COBOL, although I think characterizing it as a "Vietnam-era computer-language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore" is a statement designed to mis-label and malign a perfectly fine language. Point-of-fact: College students in the 1970's and early 1980's when this system was written didn't bother to learn COBOL either. It wasn't because it was so out-dated; it was because the computer science department didn't like COBOL for whatever reason. Many systems we use today were designed and built before the "Vietnam-era". Does that make them bad? That's the implication that the author is trying to make, and it certainly does not stand up to the most basic of challenges: truth.
Additionally, the payroll system is completely table-driven, for taxes and salaries, so this change should only take a short while to accomplish, not the six months asserted by controller John Chiang.
Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all news reported.
Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Steve Comstock Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:12 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
> <quote> > The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, > which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many > college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
Huh? How does a pay cut exhaust a payroll system? What does that mean, to "exhaust a system"?
> ...
> The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business > Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in > 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, > the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting > firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you > have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the > system until you're able to find a replacement."
> </quote>
We can teach them young whippersnappers COBOL quickly. (But, of course, not for free!)
z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques
==> Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS <== ==> application developer toolkits. Sample code in four <== ==> programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, <== ==> bind and test. <== ==> http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html <==
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-------------------------------<snip>----------------------------------- And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as "Insultants"...... -----------------------------<unsnip>----------------------------- All too often, a "consultant" is anyone who hangs out a shingle saying so. Brains and good sense are too often left out of the equation. Present company excepted, of course. We're all professionals here, even if experience might be a little short in a few cases.
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This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of McKown, John Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:38 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
<quote> The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
...
The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement."
</quote>
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-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of John P. Baker Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:46 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
John P. Baker
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:38 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
<quote> The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
...
The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement."
</quote>
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I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards.
Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet pe...@us.ibm.com
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On 5 Aug 2008 14:48:51 -0700, jbaker...@COMPORIUM.NET (John P. Baker) wrote:
>This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a >competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, >overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
Actually, it sounds like a prepared statement written for a Democratic Controller who is looking to score points with organized labor, at the expense of a Republican governator.
Eric
-- Eric Chevalier E-mail: et...@tulsagrammer.com Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE!
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Actually, the coding change would be minimal. As reported, the Governor stated that according to the CA Supreme Court ruling, all employees are to be paid minimum wage when a budget has not been enacted by the Legislature. So, all that must be done is to provide a flag that, when set, resets all wage rates to minimum wage. This can be done immediately following the extraction of the regular wage rates from the tables according to the employees pay grade. Analysis could require a few days, depending on the actual size of the software package (a few tens of thousands of lines? I will take that with a big handful of salt), and coding probably considerably less. Testing would take a few more days, and that is that.
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Pedro Vera Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:55 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards.
Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet pe...@us.ibm.com
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----- Original Message ----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU> To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU <IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU> Sent: Tue Aug 05 16:55:04 2008 Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards.
Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet pe...@us.ibm.com
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> Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all > news reported.
> Tom Harper > IMS Utilities Development Team > NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. > Sugar Land, TX
Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know:
"The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems".
This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the "old" (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-)
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I left in 1982, and at that time, the state payroll system was part of a larger system, Personal Information Management System (PIMS). It did not use any data bases per se, and was written primarily in COBOL with a few small assembler subroutines. It was VSAM-based (no IMS or DB2, which may have been added later), was primarily a batch system with an online CICS set of transactions which could be used for updating individual personal records.
However, I think most of this is fairly irrelevant. We are discussing technical issues, and has been pointed out, the statements made by the state controller are suspect and probably politically motivated in order to accomplish some goal, perhaps to win union support and votes, perhaps to embarrass the governor, perhaps to gain funding for yet another state personnel system, perhaps in genuine ignorance in which case it could serve to embarrass himself. At any rate, the current payroll system is the designated fall guy here. Despite all of the slanderous statements made, as far as I know, it does work and ensures that all of the employees are paid correctly and on time.
By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote.
Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Don Leahy Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:35 PM To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
> Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all > news reported.
> Tom Harper > IMS Utilities Development Team > NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. > Sugar Land, TX
Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know:
"The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems".
This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the "old" (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-)
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Wait - California has a REPUBLICAN governor? Could'a fooled me.
Seriously, though, this sounds like a load of dimpled chads to me. I'm a security guy, not a programmer, but even I could probably code the changes necessary (provided they were in Cobol - I'd need a bit of help with the Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)). Cripes, there are probably folks here who could BREADBOARD changes like that without too much of a problem.
Now, if they're doing all this on a Mac, I could understand their dilemma... [insert cheeky grin here]
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Eric Chevalier Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 18:06 To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
On 5 Aug 2008 14:48:51 -0700, jbaker...@COMPORIUM.NET (John P. Baker) wrote:
>This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a >competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, >overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
Actually, it sounds like a prepared statement written for a Democratic Controller who is looking to score points with organized labor, at the expense of a Republican governator.
Eric
-- Eric Chevalier E-mail: et...@tulsagrammer.com Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE!
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>I'm a security guy, not a programmer, but even I could probably code the changes necessary (provided they were in Cobol - I'd need a bit of help with the
Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)).
I haven't coded a complex COBOL routine, nor anything in ASM, since 1981. But, I think I could do it, as well. I've coded in REXX & SAS extensively. Programming is not a language, it's a skill! Give a PFCSK with programming skills (oxymoron?) a COBOL manual, and they could probably figure it out.
Spoken by a Vietnam-era IT professional. (Even though Vietnam really didn't matter to my country -- except to fill up news shows).
- Too busy driving to stop for gas!
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> By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote.
> Tom Harper > IMS Utilities Development Team > NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. > Sugar Land, TX
The quotation had nothing to do with the California situation. It was from a different time and place, intended only to illustrate the type of disinformation that can be spread.
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