Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
McKown, John
<quote>
The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system,
which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many
college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
...
The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business
Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in
1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer,
the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting
firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you
have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the
system until you're able to find a replacement."
</quote>
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Gary Green
COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult to maintain.
Where do I start?
How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come up with a solution that would work with their existing system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few hundred grand?
Idiots!
On Tue Aug 5 14:38 , 'McKown, John' <John....@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> sent:
>http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html
>
>
>The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system,
>which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many
>college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
>
>...
>
>The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business
>Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in
>1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
>
>"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer,
>the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting
>firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you
>have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the
>system until you're able to find a replacement."
>
>
>
McKown, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Green
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't
> handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
>
> Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!!
>
> COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult
> to maintain.
>
> Where do I start?
>
> How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come
> up with a solution that would work with their existing
> system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few
> hundred grand?
>
> Idiots!
Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind
right now.
I think that most of the CA state employees now love COBOL. "I'd give
you a pay cut, but our computer system refuses!" I found it very
amusing.
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
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it.
Steve Comstock
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html
>
> <quote>
> The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system,
> which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many
> college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
Huh? How does a pay cut exhaust a payroll system? What does that mean,
to "exhaust a system"?
>
> ...
>
> The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business
> Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in
> 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s.
>
> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer,
> the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting
> firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you
> have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the
> system until you're able to find a replacement."
>
> </quote>
We can teach them young whippersnappers COBOL quickly. (But, of
course, not for free!)
Kind regards,
-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.
303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com
z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
+ Useful utilities and subroutines
+ Tips and techniques
==> Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS <==
==> application developer toolkits. Sample code in four <==
==> programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, <==
==> bind and test. <==
==> http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html <==
McKown, John
<quote>
Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is
time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification
on an individual basis.
</quote>
Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chase, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John
>
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html
>
> <quote>
> [ snip ]
> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred
> Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a
> public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language
> that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired
> annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until
> you're able to find a replacement."
>
> </quote>
And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as
"Insultants"......
-jc-
Linda Mooney
Linda Mooney
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Chase, John" <jch...@USSCO.COM>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John
> >
> > http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html
> >
> >
> > [ snip ]
> > "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred
> > Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a
> > public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language
> > that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired
> > annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until
> > you're able to find a replacement."
> >
> >
>
Tom Marchant
>I missed this gem:
>
><quote>
>Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is
>time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification
>on an individual basis.
></quote>
>
>Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to sell their new
system.
--
Tom Marchant
McKown, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:13 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't
> handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
>
>
> >I missed this gem:
> >
> ><quote>
> >Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of
> code, so it is
> >time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job
> classification
> >on an individual basis.
> ></quote>
> >
> >Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
>
> I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to
> sell their new
> system.
>
> --
> Tom Marchant
That would be easier to believe. And those who know better are keeping
their mouths shut. Reminds me of when I worked for a city government. I
was told that it would be best if I never attended any city council
meetings because somebody might notice and ask me a question about the
computer systems.
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bass, Walter W
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:13 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't
> handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
<snip>
> >Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
>
> I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to
> sell their new system.
>
> --
> Tom Marchant
<snip>
I smell a familiar stench.
Seems like a political ploy to gain support for bringing
in offshore labor to do all that COBOL coding because those
"COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days".
The degree of BS just keeps gettin' PHD (i.e. Piled Higher & Deeper).
Bill Bass
Senior Applications Developer
United Health Care
Greenville, SC
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Rick Fochtman
Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO!
We all knew that politicians were basicly stupid; we just didn't know
how bad the problem really was! :-))
Tom Harper
Controller's office and was he primary technical support for it until I
left in 1982, so I am very familiar with the system. I can confirm that
most of it is written in COBOL, although I think characterizing it as a
"Vietnam-era computer-language so outdated that many college students
don't even bother to learn it anymore" is a statement designed to
mis-label and malign a perfectly fine language. Point-of-fact: College
students in the 1970's and early 1980's when this system was written
didn't bother to learn COBOL either. It wasn't because it was so
out-dated; it was because the computer science department didn't like
COBOL for whatever reason. Many systems we use today were designed and
built before the "Vietnam-era". Does that make them bad? That's the
implication that the author is trying to make, and it certainly does not
stand up to the most basic of challenges: truth.
Additionally, the payroll system is completely table-driven, for taxes
and salaries, so this change should only take a short while to
accomplish, not the six months asserted by controller John Chiang.
Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all
news reported.
Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Steve Comstock
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:12 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
Rick Fochtman
And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as "Insultants"......
All too often, a "consultant" is anyone who hangs out a shingle saying
so. Brains and good sense are too often left out of the equation.
Present company excepted, of course. We're all professionals here, even
if experience might be a little short in a few cases.
John P. Baker
competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure,
overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
John P. Baker
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:38 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
Tony B.
As was the interstate highway system and who would wager which would outlive
the other?
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of John P. Baker
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:46 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Pedro Vera
levels afterwards.
Pedro Vera
phone (408) 463-4812
internet pe...@us.ibm.com
Edward Jaffe
> We all knew that politicians were basicly stupid; we just didn't know
> how bad the problem really was! :-))
And, California's politicians seems stupider than most. It's really
embarrassing. :-[
--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edj...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
Eric Chevalier
jbak...@COMPORIUM.NET (John P. Baker) wrote:
>This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a
>competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure,
>overpriced, and over-hyped PCs.
Actually, it sounds like a prepared statement written for a Democratic
Controller who is looking to score points with organized labor, at the
expense of a Republican governator.
Eric
--
Eric Chevalier E-mail: et...@tulsagrammer.com
Web: www.tulsagrammer.com
Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE!
John P. Baker
stated that according to the CA Supreme Court ruling, all employees are to
be paid minimum wage when a budget has not been enacted by the Legislature.
So, all that must be done is to provide a flag that, when set, resets all
wage rates to minimum wage. This can be done immediately following the
extraction of the regular wage rates from the tables according to the
employees pay grade. Analysis could require a few days, depending on the
actual size of the software package (a few tens of thousands of lines? I
will take that with a big handful of salt), and coding probably considerably
less. Testing would take a few more days, and that is that.
John P. Baker
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Pedro Vera
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:55 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
Tom Harper
That is done with an already built-in retroactive function used many times in the past.
Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land TX
Don Leahy
> news reported.
>
> Tom Harper
> IMS Utilities Development Team
> NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
> Sugar Land, TX
Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know:
"The old system is written in several different programming languages
and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems".
This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the "old"
(early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-)
Tom Harper
I left in 1982, and at that time, the state payroll system was part of a
larger system, Personal Information Management System (PIMS). It did not
use any data bases per se, and was written primarily in COBOL with a few
small assembler subroutines. It was VSAM-based (no IMS or DB2, which may
have been added later), was primarily a batch system with an online CICS
set of transactions which could be used for updating individual personal
records.
However, I think most of this is fairly irrelevant. We are discussing
technical issues, and has been pointed out, the statements made by the
state controller are suspect and probably politically motivated in order
to accomplish some goal, perhaps to win union support and votes, perhaps
to embarrass the governor, perhaps to gain funding for yet another state
personnel system, perhaps in genuine ignorance in which case it could
serve to embarrass himself. At any rate, the current payroll system is
the designated fall guy here. Despite all of the slanderous statements
made, as far as I know, it does work and ensures that all of the
employees are paid correctly and on time.
By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote.
Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Don Leahy
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:35 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
Doc Farmer
Seriously, though, this sounds like a load of dimpled chads to me. I'm a
security guy, not a programmer, but even I could probably code the changes
necessary (provided they were in Cobol - I'd need a bit of help with the
Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)). Cripes, there are probably
folks here who could BREADBOARD changes like that without too much of a
problem.
Now, if they're doing all this on a Mac, I could understand their dilemma...
[insert cheeky grin here]
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Eric Chevalier
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 18:06
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
Ted MacNEIL
Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)).
I haven't coded a complex COBOL routine, nor anything in ASM, since 1981.
But, I think I could do it, as well.
I've coded in REXX & SAS extensively.
Programming is not a language, it's a skill!
Give a PFCSK with programming skills (oxymoron?) a COBOL manual, and they could probably figure it out.
Spoken by a Vietnam-era IT professional.
(Even though Vietnam really didn't matter to my country -- except to fill up news shows).
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
Don Leahy
> By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote.
>
> Tom Harper
> IMS Utilities Development Team
> NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
> Sugar Land, TX
>
from a different time and place, intended only to illustrate the type
of disinformation that can be spread.
Chase, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
>
> [ snip ]
>
> Reading something like this makes one wonder about the
> veracity of all news reported.
I tend to question the competence and honesty of the quoted source(s)
rather than the reporter(s). And if the source(s) are government (any
level), I almost automatically assume the quotes are outright lies.
-jc-
Chase, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Don Leahy
>
> [ snip ]
>
> Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know:
>
> "The old system is written in several different programming
> languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems".
>
> This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the "old"
> (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-)
But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three
"different programming languages".
-jc-
Don Leahy
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Don Leahy
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>> Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know:
>>
>> "The old system is written in several different programming
>> languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems".
>>
>> This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the "old"
>> (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-)
>
> But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three
> "different programming languages".
>
> -jc-
>
"programming languages" too. :-)
Tom Harper
It is true that California is in a bind, however, I hardly think that it
is appropriate for state employees to essentially make a loan to the
state government with the implied threat of if they don't, their jobs
may be terminated. This has happened many times before, with various
"solutions", such as vouchers that some banks honored, etc.
Interestingly enough, welfare recipients still get their checks, as it's
"mandated by law". However, the law is apparently not equal, as state
employees are required to be paid the average salary for their type of
position, which has clearly not been the case over the last several
decades.
Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
Neon Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:06 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut,
controller says - sacbee.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Green
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't
> handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
>
> Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!!
>
> COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult
> to maintain.
>
> Where do I start?
>
> How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come
> up with a solution that would work with their existing
> system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few
> hundred grand?
>
> Idiots!
Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind
right now.
I think that most of the CA state employees now love COBOL. "I'd give
you a pay cut, but our computer system refuses!" I found it very
amusing.
--
McKown, John
> > But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three
> > "different programming languages".
> >
> > -jc-
> >
> Yeah, and the old system uses JCL so you can add that to the list of
> "programming languages" too. :-)
Well, in a sense, JCL is a "programming" language. It is, supposedly,
human readable text which instructs a computer to perform a series of
actions. I guess it depends on the defination of "programming language"
vs. "control language".
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
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strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
McKown, John
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Harper
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't
> handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
>
>
> It is true that California is in a bind, however, I hardly
> think that it
> is appropriate for state employees to essentially make a loan to the
> state government with the implied threat of if they don't, their jobs
> may be terminated. This has happened many times before, with various
> "solutions", such as vouchers that some banks honored, etc.
I worked for Braniff Airways back in the early '80s. Just before it went
bankrupt for the first time. All employees there were told something
like: "10% of your salary is going to be taken into a fund. If the
company becomes profitable again, you will get this back." I.e. we got a
10% pay cut, but not stated as a pay cut. And we still paid income taxes
on that 10% which we never saw again.
>
> Interestingly enough, welfare recipients still get their
> checks, as it's
> "mandated by law". However, the law is apparently not equal, as state
> employees are required to be paid the average salary for their type of
> position, which has clearly not been the case over the last several
> decades.
>
> Tom Harper
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
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strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Jaffe
> Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind
> right now.
>
The State of CA has had a 39% revenue *increase* since Arnold took
office. How could they be in a bind? They spend money like drunken
sailors. Even less responsibly. At least drunken sailors are spending
their *own* money! >:o
--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edj...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Marshall
>The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system,
>which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many
>college students don't even bother to learn it anymore.
>
Being in Government for 40 years I have never heard of any government
payroll system, no matter how old it is, not being able to be updated when
there is a pay raise (i.e. new pay tables). Been doing this for years and years.
So in California, to update a salary with a pay decrease is not possible without
reprogramming the entire system.
Sounds like a very interesting coding technique which was employed in the
beginning and designed for the future; oh yes, this is California or maybe it is
some excuse. Sounds like the time to hire a consultant to do a study, do
nothing until it is completed in a year or two; what'a plan.
jim
Kelman, Tom
archaic as technically accurate.
http://weblog.infoworld.com/fatalexception/archives/2008/08/californias_
leg.html
http://weblog.infoworld.com/daily/archives/2008/08/the_mildly_iron.html
Tom Kelman
Enterprise Capacity Planner
Commerce Bank of Kansas City
(816) 760-7632
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Ken Porowski
http://cwflyris.computerworld.com/t/3409405/121975425/131431/0
-----Original Message-----
Kelman, Tom
Arggg, even InfoWorld seems to be publishing the idea of COBOL being
archaic as technically accurate.