Mainframe operating systems
Joel C. Ewing
ian brown wrote:
> Advance apologies if this post is irrelevant to the newsgroup.
>
> I am an MQSeries consultant looking to swot up on the mainframe versions of
> MQSeries, I have spent the best part of a day searching the web, but I
> cannot find a clear answer to my questions.
>
> I am trying to find the relationship between OS/390, MVS/ESA, VSE/ESA and
> VM/ESA. More specifically what is the difference between MQSeries for OS/390
> and MQSeries for MVS/ESA.
>
> If someone could point me in the right direction, prefrably to a nice
> colourful diagram, I would be most grateful.
> Thanks.
There are 2 major Operating System families for S/360/370/390 plus the
VM family, which I'm not sure whether to call an Operating System or a
Control Program.
VSE/ESA is the most current of the sequence of operating systems DOS
-> DOS/VS -> DOS/VSE -> VSE -> VSE/ESA.
OS/390 is the most current version in the (approximate) sequence
OS/360 -> OS/MFT -> OS/MVT -> OS/SVS -> OS/MVS -> MVS/SP -> MVS/XA ->
MVS/ESA -> OS/390.
The VSE family has been at least historically simpler, cheaper, and
designed to support smaller and less complex configurations than
OS/390. The Job Control Language and Application-to-System interfaces
are different in these two families, so object code using any system
calls, while generally upward compatible within a family, is
incompatable across the families, although applications written in a
high-level language may only require a recompile.
VM/ESA, the most current of the VM family, uses software and special
hardware assists to logically partition a physical machine into
multiple, independent virtual machines, with each of these virtual
machines capable of running an instance of an operating system from
either the OS/390 family or the VSE/ESA family, or one of a number of
applications designed specifically for the VM virtual machine
environment (or even another instance of VM). VM also supports running
individual "user" virtual machines which can be used for interactive
program/application development or running single-user applications.
MQSeries for OS/390 is just a later release of MQSeries for MVS/ESA,
renamed to be consistent with the most current Operating System of the
OS/390 family. There might be significant changes, or this name change
could have been largely cosmetic. When OS/390 Rel 1.1 was introduced
(1996), it was mostly just a repackaging of MVS/ESA Ver 5 along with a
number of other products which were commonly required to make a
functional MVS system. OS/390 has evolved since then, but is still
basically MVS/ESA with more features and a number of related products
rolled together.
--
Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, AR jce...@acm.org
ian brown
"Joel C. Ewing" <jce...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:38AEE57F...@acm.org...
Metz, Seymour
VM is just as much of an operating system as any of the others: it includes
CMS and GCS. The lineage is something like CP/40 -> CP/67 -> VMF/370 ->
VM/SE (SEPP) or it's little brother VM/BSE (BSEPP) -> VM/SP -> VM/SP HPO
with some divergences starting with VM/XA -> VM/XA SF -> VM/XA SP -> VM/ESA.
For VSE, you had VSE/AF and VSE/SP between DOS/VSE and VSE/ESA. I don't know
of any version that was called just VSE.
For the OS/360 family, MFT, MFT II and MVT were all sysgen options of
OS/360, not separate systems. With the advent of virtual storage, OS/360
split into an AOS1 (OS/VS1) line based on the MFT option and an AOS2
(OS?VS2) line based on the MVT option. OS/VS1 is now dead, and the OS/VS2
line ran OS/VS2 R1 (SVS) -> OS/VS2 R2 (MVS) -> MVS/SE -> MVS/SE2 -> MVS/SP
V1 -> MVS/SP V2 (MVS/XA) -> MVS/SP V3 (MVS/ESA) -> MVS/ESA -> OS/390. Keep
in mind that many of these were program products that installed on top of
the free MVS, most recently OS/VS2 3.8 with SU64, the base for MVS/SE2 and
MVS/SP. There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.
I'm leaving out the role of such associated products as JES2 NJE and TSO/CP,
which have their own lineages.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
one of the things that VM provided was clear seperation between
resource managerment (CP) and various system services (CMS) that
tended to be jumbled all together in other operating systems. As a
result, there was a constant focus on efficiency in the CP path
lengths (a focus that has not been there in other implementations).
In part it was possible for customers to constantly point out ... at
least in the guest cases, the with and w/o numbers i.e. what was the
thruput of running MVS with and w/o VM; ... when was the last time you
heard somebody complained about the benchmarked performance difference
of running a MVS application with & w/o MVS?
There has been some effort claiming the difference in thruput between
application run in VSE & MVS .. but MVS has tended to cloud the
thruput issues as having lots more function ... as opposed to any lack
of attention to thruput (although there was a situation where it was
possible to demonstrate higher VS1 thruput under VM with handshaking
than VS1 run standalone ... i.e. handshaking allowed VS1 to take
advantage of certian VM resource management facilities rather than
using its own).
Part of the thruput and pathlength focusability resulted in VM/CP
optimizations that rarely has been demonstrated by other
implementations. In part, it was also a significant factor giving rise
to LPARs (could be viewed as a microcode implementation of CP subset).
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.
While I believe that this is technically true, I do have manuals
published by IBM that mention "OS/MVT". They weren't completely
consistent on this.
-- glen
David A. Cobb
Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
And let us not forget LSMFT.
glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
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Bob Rutledge
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
Grandchild would be closer.
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT?
No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
[Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
Whatever winds your watch.
> And let us not forget LSMFT.
Although I no longer use them, I do remember when they were .19$USD per pack and
I remember all the other things LSMFT used to mean amongst the adolescents of
the time.
<snip>
Bob
Steve Samson
Sorry, asbestos is not politically acceptable these days, and LS Green
is...?
MVS is indeed a descendant of OS/360 MVT, but not the son--SVS was the
son. VSE is not related to OS/360 at all. It is the grandchild of
DOS/360 via DOS/VS. VS1 was the son of MFT.
Steve Samson
"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
MVT .... SVS ... i.e. MVT laid out in single 16mbyte "virtual address
space" doing own its paging. Initial implementation (i.e. AOS2) was
effectively MVT with some tweaks, a page fault handler and the
CCWTRANS module from the CP/67 "I" system (i.e. the internal version
of CP/67 modified to run on 370 relocate architecture instead of
360/67 relocate architecture). I seem to remember some night shift
testing in the 705(?) machine room (i may even remember some names).
MVS then lots more rewrite ... with workload spread out in multiple
address spaces. Lot of issues during the 24bit days because the kernel
residing in the same address space as the applications ... and
attempting to preserve the 8mbyte/8mbyte split getting to be real
interesting as system/kernel requirements began to exceed 8mbyte
limit.
MFT ... VS1
DOS ... DOS/VS ... DOS/VSE ... VSE
Bob Halpern
OS was PCP (primary control program)
Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
DOS was a different system and grew from a subset of OS specification.
It continued to DOS/VS and VSE. A 3rd party product had DOS/MVT.
The next generation of OS had MFT growing into VS1. VS1 died after V7.
MVS SVS
Then SVS grew into MVS.
"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
> And let us not forget LSMFT.
>
> glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>
> > sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > > There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.
> >
> > While I believe that this is technically true, I do have manuals
> > published by IBM that mention "OS/MVT". They weren't completely
> > consistent on this.
> >
> > -- glen
>
Ken Brick
>>and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
No VSE is the son of DOS/VS. From memory it went DOS (to Rel. 27) then
DOS/VS, DOS/VS Advanced function, DOS/VSE and finally DOS/ESA.
Beyond the fact that they had to run on the same 360 architecture I'm
not sure how much they had in common(OS and DOS). Even the JCL was very
different .
--
Ken Brick
Brick Computer Services Ltd.
kbr...@netspace.net.au
PH: 613 9817 5506
Mob. 0409009764
Will Scratchley
>I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
>and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
OS/MFT evolved into OS/VS1
VSE's lineage is DOS, then DOS/VS
Will Scratchley
scr...@eclipse.net
joh...@my-deja.com
even MFT and MVT. It was called PCP, the Primary Control Program and
lived a short while.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bo Goersch
> No VSE is the son of DOS/VS. From memory it went DOS (to Rel. 27) then
> DOS/VS, DOS/VS Advanced function, DOS/VSE and finally DOS/ESA.
>
>
The finally should be VSE/ESA....they did away with DOS when they took
away the 16meg limit.
Metz, Seymour
MVS was the son of OS/360 MVT; I'm not sure whether 65MP had any influence
on it. I'm not sure how much commonality there was between SVS and MVS, but
from the customer side it looked like there was a lot of overlap. Also, I
believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.
VSE does not derive from any flavor of OS/360. The approximate progression
was DOS/360 -> DOS/370 -> DOS/VS -> DOS/VSE -> VSE/AF -> VSE/SP -> VSE/ESA.
The successor to OS/360 MFT II was OS/VS1, with a program product that you
could install on top of later releases of OS/VS1 (BPE?) in order to support
VCNA.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David A. Cobb [SMTP:super...@HOME.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 3:55 PM
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Metz, Seymour
later (15/16?) and TSO was even later.(20.1?). Release 14 didn't even have
CRJE or ITF, much less TSO.
WAITR, please SHIFT away this PRSCB: I didn't order it!
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:22 PM
>
> In the beginning:
> OS was PCP (primary control program)
> Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
> Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
> Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Rutledge
Bob
"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
<snip>
>
Also, I believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.
>
<snip>
Metz, Seymour
our lives easier.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Rutledge [SMTP:deer...@IX.NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:17 PM
>
> Can you say PSECT, in the original (TSS) sense? Wouldn't that make our
> lives
> easier?
Metz, Seymour
dynamic linking? I don't know of anything in MVS that derives from TSS,
alas.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Rutledge [SMTP:deer...@IX.NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 4:49 PM
>
> TSS. Not enough of it! SMS could have been a lot simpler.
>
> Bob
>
> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> Also, I believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Rutledge
easier?
Bob
"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> TSS? Where's TSSS? Where's VIPAM? Where are page formatted volumes? Where is
> dynamic linking? I don't know of anything in MVS that derives from TSS,
> alas.
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
<snip>
Doug Fuerst
At 17:59 27-02-00 +0000, you wrote:
>In article <38B86018...@CPUperform.com>,
>Bob Halpern <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>>In the beginning:
>> OS was PCP (primary control program)
>> Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
>> Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
>> Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
>
>That last line should be: Then PCP or MFT or MVT . . . . .
>Both PCP and MFT (more properly MFTII) continued to rel 21.
>--
>Rich Greenberg Work: Rich.Greenberg atsign worldspan.com +1 770-563-6656
>N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA Play: richgr atsign netcom.com +1 770-321-6507
>Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
>Canines:Val(Chinook,CGC,TT),Red(Husky,(RIP)),Shasta(Husky,TT) Owner:Chinook-L
>Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. Adopt a homeless Husky. Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Doug Fuerst
Bill Lynch
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
Just being pedantic, I think it was: "LS/MFT". BTW, VSE is the son of
DOS.
Bill Lynch
Rich Greenberg
Thats a whole 'nother family.
CP-40, CP-67, VM/370, VM/SP, VM/SP-HPO, VM/SF, VM/MA, VM/XA, VM/ESA.
VM/ESA is the only one that stayed around long enough to hit Version 2.
2.4.0 is the latest.
Gerard S.
Don't forget VM/370 BSEP and also VM/370 SEP
---- a VM'e since VM/370 Rel 1. ---- not too many of us old timers left, and
yes,
I used VM/MA --- found more bugs (APARed) in it than my I.Q. heh heh heh ---
now,
don't nobody call me stupid.
Gerard S.
Gerard S.
Jeffery Swagger
----
Jeff
"Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV> wrote in message
news:0D93FE5CA0BED11194CB...@nsfmail01.nsf.gov...
> from the customer side it looked like there was a lot of overlap. Also, I
Metz, Seymour
my head, VMF/370, VMF/370 with VM/SE (SEPP) or VM/BSE (BSEPP), VM/XA MA,
VM/XA SF and VM/XA SP.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Greenberg [SMTP:ric...@NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 9:59 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> In article <4.1.200002271...@127.0.0.1>,
> Doug Fuerst <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
> >Let's not forget CP67 now.
>
> Thats a whole 'nother family.
>
> CP-40, CP-67, VM/370, VM/SP, VM/SP-HPO, VM/SF, VM/MA, VM/XA, VM/ESA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Fochtman
"David A. Cobb" wrote:
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
> And let us not forget LSMFT.
>
> <unsnip>
I would say that MVS and VSE are descendants of MVT and MFT, but not
sons. There's a LOT of evolution between. And I smoked Luckies for 30
years!
(LSMFT = Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco)
Rick Fochtman
> Let's not forget CP67 now.
>
> <unsnip>
If memory serves me, that was the "home" of the first page-formatted volumes. All
physical blocks were a single size and the system used those blocks to "simulate"
ckd devices, if anyone was foolish enough to write a program that required it.
Jeffrey Broido
David,
Actually, no. VS2 R2, later called MVS can, indeed, be thought of as the
son of OS/360 MVT. But DOS/VSE is by no means the son of OS/360 MFT. It
Jeffrey Broido
Jeffrey Broido
Metz, Seymour
its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
have been page formatted.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
Metz, Seymour
plugged up. I vaguely recall that some of it fed into the MVS development
and that some of it fed into the RACF development, but that was in a galaxy
long ago and far away, so don't quote me on it.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffery Swagger [SMTP:jef...@MINDSPRING.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:55 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> What was RSS/360?
L. Patrick Allmond
David : How big was the file you tried this on the other day?
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@bama.ua.edu]On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Broido
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:25 AM
To: IBM-...@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:
> No, CP used page-formatted volumes for paging and SPOOL, but CMS formatted
> its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
> checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
> have been page formatted.
>
No, CP used page-formatted volumes for paging and SPOOL, but CMS formatted
its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
have been page formatted.
I built PAM for CMS ... paged access method originally on CP/67
... and some other virtual memory functions ... which were then ported
to VM/370 release 2 (there was a virtual memory management CSC
tech. report, describing dynamically loadable shared segments, as well
as dynamically relocatable shared segments ... aka the same shared
segment could appear at multiple different virtual addresses in
different address spaces, paged page tables, PAM, misc. other stuff).
This was deployed extensively inside IBM on release 2 base. The HONE
system (what all the branch & field people use) had a relase 2PLC15
system that was available around the world that included all the
features. Prior to the dynamically loadable shared segments ... VM/370
only supported mapping of shared segments with the simulated
IPL-by-name function. HONE was primarily delivered it service in APL
... which included a "padded-cell environment" for salesman and other
field people. To achieve performance, the APL interpreter had most of
its pages defined as a shared segment using an IPL-by-name
hack. However, there was several HONE applications written in Fortran
that required exiting from APL, executing Fortran application and
returning to APL. The HONE system built on VM/370 release 2plc15 made
extensive use of dynamically loadable shared segments for switching
back & forth between APL & fortran applications ... somewhat
transparently to the end-user.
A small subset of the dynamically loadable shared segments showed up
in VM/370 Release 3 in the guise of the LOADSYS command (the CMS
changes for putting several CMS applications in shared segment, a
subset of the CP function but w/o being able to have the same shared
segment show up as different virtual address in different address
spaces, no PAM ... and therefor no ability to specify shared segments
as part of loading a CMS executable from PAM formated disk).
The pageable page tables and some misc. other pieces (like the base
for multiprocessing infrastructure) did go out in the resource manager
later on in Vm/370 release 3.
The PAM stuff did ship somewhat in the VM release for XT/AT/370.
random refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#31
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#4
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#38
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#149
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/
Jeffrey Broido
Doug Fuerst
(Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling program)
was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in the
JES2 code.
Doug Fuerst
Bruce Black
any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.
John Buckley wrote:
>
> Bob Rutledge wrote:
>
> >
> > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> >
>
> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
>
> jr
--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for
FDR, CPK, ABR, SOS, UPSTREAM, FATS/FATAR
Innovation Data Processing
Little Falls, NJ 07424
973-890-7300
personal: bbl...@fdrinnovation.com
sales info: sa...@fdrinnovation.com
tech support: sup...@fdrinnovation.com
Metz, Seymour
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as
> ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
> program)
> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in
> the
> JES2 code.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Metz, Seymour
JES2 or JES3.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Buckley [SMTP:jbuc...@TIBCO.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:12 PM
>
> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage.
> But isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hall, Ken , ECSS
emulator are having quite a bit of fun playing with OS/360 MFT and MVT.
Seymour, you should get involved. I'm sure you'd be a great source of help
to them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour [SMTP:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 4:07 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> OS/360 release 14 included the PCP, MFT and MVT option; MFT II was much
> later (15/16?) and TSO was even later.(20.1?). Release 14 didn't even have
> CRJE or ITF, much less TSO.
>
> WAITR, please SHIFT away this PRSCB: I didn't order it!
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:22 PM
> >
> > In the beginning:
> > OS was PCP (primary control program)
> > Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
> > Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
> > Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
>
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
I'm not sure who wrote the job entry subsystem for vs1 ....
but I first saw HASP at mft OS/11 (houston spooler out of SEs at nasa
houston). it continued thru mft & mvt. Along the way it became an
official product, the group moved to g'burg and renamed JES2.
There was also "ASP", done by SEs out of lockheed ... which eventually
was also picked up by the g'burg group, became a product and renamed
JES3. My wife was in the g'burg group at the time and she got to be
one of the ASP catchers ... starting out reading the ASP listings and
generating a PLM.
random references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#18
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#33
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#58
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#93
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#94
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#111
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#117
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13
George Shedlock Jr
Bruce Black <bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM> on 02/28/2000 12:35:10 PM
Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc: (bcc: George Shedlock/Corp/Chep USA)
Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
Yes, there was a spool component called JES on VS1 but I don't believe it had
any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.
John Buckley wrote:
>
> Bob Rutledge wrote:
>
> >
> > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> >
>
> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But
isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
>
> jr
Metz, Seymour
services of JES.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Shedlock Jr [SMTP:gshe...@US.CHEP.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> No, actually on VS1 it was called RES.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Hollander
OS/VS1 (son of MFT)
SVS (short-lived son of VS1 crossbread with MVT to sort of create
MVS)
I thought DOS was a hardware emulated/software simulated thing than ran
under VS1
to provide 1401 emulation and simulation (emulated on 360s, simulated on
370/158s up
to 3033s)... Then RPG was discovered to work on the native platforms
without any
emu/simulation. (Aren't we still running autocoder, today?? <smile>)
Jeffrey Broido
John Buckley
> Yes, there was a spool component called JES on VS1 but I don't believe it had
> any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.
>
> John Buckley wrote:
> >
> > Bob Rutledge wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> > >
> >
> > This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But isn't
> > there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
> >
> > jr
>
> --
> Bruce A. Black
> Senior Software Developer for
> FDR, CPK, ABR, SOS, UPSTREAM, FATS/FATAR
> Innovation Data Processing
> Little Falls, NJ 07424
> 973-890-7300
> personal: bbl...@fdrinnovation.com
> sales info: sa...@fdrinnovation.com
> tech support: sup...@fdrinnovation.com
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Back in the early 80's I was a computer operator running IMS in a guest OS/VS1 system
under VM/SP. When I got my first look at JES2, it's similarity (from an operator's
point of view) to OS/VS1 suggested to me that JES2 was in some way descended from
OS/VS1.
Well, I've been wrong before..................
jr
Metz, Seymour
coordination between the AOS1 and AOS2 developers. DOS was an unrelated
system.
On the original S/360 1401 emulation was a feature of the low-end models and
the emulator programs were stand alone. Compatibility Operating System (COS)
was a kludge that allowed you to run 1401 emulation under DOS/360 on a model
40 or 50. Starting with the 360/85, IBM fixed the emulation features so that
you could run the emulation programs safely under an operating system, e.g.,
OS/360. Shortly afterwards IBM supplied a version of the 1401/1410 emulation
program that was capable of running on a machine without the 1401/1410
emulator feature, although it was faster with the feature.
You may also be thinking of the "DOS Emulation Feature", which provided
block relocation in order to run DOS/360 programs under OS/360.
"AUTOCODER? We don't need no stinking AUTOCODER! Real programmers use SPS!"
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Hollander [SMTP:holl...@PACBELL.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:06 PM
>
> I think you are missing some of the players:
>
> OS/VS1 (son of MFT)
> SVS (short-lived son of VS1 crossbread with MVT to sort of
> create
> MVS)
>
> I thought DOS was a hardware emulated/software simulated thing than ran
> under VS1
> to provide 1401 emulation and simulation (emulated on 360s, simulated on
> 370/158s up
> to 3033s)... Then RPG was discovered to work on the native platforms
> without any
> emu/simulation. (Aren't we still running autocoder, today?? <smile>)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Hollander
with JES2 (HASP) or JES3 (ASP). Although there was a FDP
for VS/1 that looked like HASP for VS/1 and RES.
Edward Jaffe
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling program)
> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in the
> JES2 code.
References? How about the fact that all of the JES2 messages still start
with HASP?
--
| Edward E. Jaffe | Voice: (310) 338-0400 x318 |
| Mgr., Research & Development | Fax: (310) 338-0801 |
| Phoenix Software International | edj...@phoenixsoftware.com |
| 5200 W. Century Blvd., Suite 800 | USS24J24 at IBMMAIL |
| Los Angeles, CA 90045 | http://www.phoenixsoftware.com |
Bob Halpern
Nancy Melanos (?sp) put HASP shared spool under VS1. It was real HASP.
Metz, Seymour
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>
> as ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
> program)
> was the predecessor to JES3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kalinich, John
name.
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Bird
(hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
address space (hence the V). SVS supported a variable number of tasks in a
single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks in
a multiple number of virtual address spaces.
PCP--->MFT--->MFT II
--->MVT--->SVS--->MVS
Regards,
T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com
Thomas Bird
(hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
one virtual address space. SVS supported a variable number of tasks in a
single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks in
a multiple number of virtual address spaces.
OS/370 PCP--->OS360 MFT--->OS360 MFT II--->OS/VS VS1
--->OS/360
MVT--->OS/VS VS2 SVS--->OS/VS VS2 MVS
Metz, Seymour
before MFT II; in fact, a good deal of MVT code found its way into MFT II
and even PCP.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Bird [SMTP:tb...@TJBVENTURES.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:03 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> MFT only supported a fixed number of tasks in only one real address space
> (hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
> address space (hence the V). SVS supported a variable number of tasks in
> a
> single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks
> in
> a multiple number of virtual address spaces.
>
> PCP--->MFT--->MFT II
> --->MVT--->SVS--->MVS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Fuerst
At 14:42 28-02-00 -0500, you wrote:
>Nope, Attached Support Processor.
>
>
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>>
>> as ASP
>> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
>> program)
>> was the predecessor to JES3.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Doug Fuerst
Thomas Bird
stingy on cycles.)
ASP=Attached Support Processor (Claim to fame is driving more than one
processor from a single spool using CTCs and also scheduling I/O devices.)
Regards,
T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com
|--------+----------------------------->
| | Edward Jaffe |
| | <edjaffe@PHOENIXSOF|
| | TWARE.COM> |
| | |
| | 02/28/00 11:12 AM |
| | Please respond to |
| | IBM Mainframe |
| | Discussion List |
| | |
|--------+----------------------------->
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU |
| cc: (bcc: Thomas J Bird/IDI) |
| Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems |
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Doug Fuerst wrote:
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as
ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
program)
> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in
the
> JES2 code.
References? How about the fact that all of the JES2 messages still start
with HASP?
--
| Edward E. Jaffe | Voice: (310) 338-0400 x318 |
| Mgr., Research & Development | Fax: (310) 338-0801 |
| Phoenix Software International | edj...@phoenixsoftware.com |
| 5200 W. Century Blvd., Suite 800 | USS24J24 at IBMMAIL |
| Los Angeles, CA 90045 | http://www.phoenixsoftware.com |
Thomas Bird
ASP's goal was to drive several machines, each with their own OS image, off
one input work stream and sharing devices among them (tape drives, etc.).
This became "loosely coupled" when 370 came along as opposed to "tightly
coupled" with one OS image like 360/65.
Regards,
T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com
|--------+------------------------------------>
| | "Kalinich, John" |
| | <kalinichj@ST-LOUIS-EXCH01|
| | .ARMY.MIL> |
| | |
| | 02/28/00 11:48 AM |
| | Please respond to IBM |
| | Mainframe Discussion List |
| | |
|--------+------------------------------------>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU |
| cc: (bcc: Thomas J Bird/IDI) |
| Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems |
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
I once heard an IBMer refer to HASP as "Half an ASP" instead of the Houston
name.
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2
Thomas Bird
before SMTP had its way with my e-mail.
Regards,
T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com
|--------+----------------------->
| | "Metz, |
| | Seymour" |
| | <sm...@NSF.GO|
| | V> |
| | |
| | 02/28/00 |
| | 01:04 PM |
| | Please |
| | respond to |
| | IBM Mainframe|
| | Discussion |
| | List |
| | |
|--------+----------------------->
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU |
| cc: (bcc: Thomas J Bird/IDI) |
| Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems |
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
However, the chronology is off; the MVT option was available for a long
time
before MFT II; in fact, a good deal of MVT code found its way into MFT II
and even PCP.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Bird [SMTP:tb...@TJBVENTURES.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:03 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> MFT only supported a fixed number of tasks in only one real address space
> (hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
> address space (hence the V). SVS supported a variable number of tasks in
> a
> single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks
> in
> a multiple number of virtual address spaces.
>
> PCP--->MFT--->MFT II
> --->MVT--->SVS--->MVS
Metz, Seymour
were guessing. I've still got some of the manuals.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:07 PM
>
> That's a new one for me, no one I ever talked to ever referred to it as
> that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Halpern
Couple into a commercial product. Direct Couple was an attached support
processor. This was the IBM Los Angeles Scientific Center staff based in
the Kirkiby Building in Westwood and at the UCLA Western Data Processing
Center (WDPC). WDPC was also the UCLA home of ARPAnet, but by UCLA staff.
The Direct Couple project also had UCLA staff (like me) on it. We got to
program some unusual systems, including some IBM stuff that never saw the
light of day. WDCOM was a communication system that serviced universities
all over the western United States into the Direct Couple system. It
supported some interactive products (e.g. 1050) and STR batch devices
like 7701, 7702, 1974, etc. I programmed the communicatins for the 7740
front end, which was the precusros to the 2701, 2702, and 2703 on the 360.
Direct Couple came from Simpson & Crabtree at the IBM Houston Site, where
they next did HASP. The ASP group also defined a single machine ASP,
called LASP, for Local ASP.
ASP became JES3, and moved to the Federal Systems Building in Westlake
CA before it went back east to be under Crabtree, along with JES2. The
last continuos employee in the west was Art Walters, who then moved to
the Santa Teresa labs. I lost track of him there.
Doug Fuerst wrote:
>
> That's a new one for me, no one I ever talked to ever referred to it as that.
>
> At 14:42 28-02-00 -0500, you wrote:
> >Nope, Attached Support Processor.
> >
> >
> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> >> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
> >>
> >> as ASP
> >> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
> >> program)
> >> was the predecessor to JES3.
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>
> Doug Fuerst
Doug Fuerst
had 3 370/195's in their ASP complex.
At 16:10 28-02-00 -0500, you wrote:
>Ah, that's because they got the name second or third hand, from people who
>were guessing. I've still got some of the manuals.
>
>
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:07 PM
>>
>> That's a new one for me, no one I ever talked to ever referred to it as
>> that.
>
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
oops, somehow I was under the impression that the ASP involved
Lockheed SEs. I believe Rick Haeckel also transferred out of the ASP
group to STL.
B...@CPUPERFORM.COM (Bob Halpern) writes:
> The ASP group was the same IBM development team that made the Direct
> Couple into a commercial product. Direct Couple was an attached support
> processor. This was the IBM Los Angeles Scientific Center staff based in
> the Kirkiby Building in Westwood and at the UCLA Western Data Processing
> Center (WDPC). WDPC was also the UCLA home of ARPAnet, but by UCLA staff.
> The Direct Couple project also had UCLA staff (like me) on it. We got to
> program some unusual systems, including some IBM stuff that never saw the
> light of day. WDCOM was a communication system that serviced universities
> all over the western United States into the Direct Couple system. It
> supported some interactive products (e.g. 1050) and STR batch devices
> like 7701, 7702, 1974, etc. I programmed the communicatins for the 7740
> front end, which was the precusros to the 2701, 2702, and 2703 on the 360.
--
David A. Cobb
> I remember all the other things LSMFT used to mean amongst the adolescents of
> the time.
[DEEP SIGH] Yeah, me too.
Graeme Gibson
have a small processor doing card/print spooling to support a
heavyweight processor doing the data crunching? Wasn't this also done
earlier on using 1401/70xx?
Regards,
Graeme
Doug Fuerst wrote:
>
> That's a new one for me, no one I ever talked to ever referred to it as that.
>
> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
>
> >Nope, Attached Support Processor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Halpern
and a 7000 series system. Some modeling studies by a very sharp IBM lady
(Jobi Citroen ?sp) showed it was too slow. So the sites that had already
bought the 1400 support system got cheap trade ins for a 7000 (e.g. 7044)
support processor for direct couple.
To give you an idea of why the original idea was too slow, the 1301 had
a 500 lb head assembly and a glob adder to move the correct amount of
hydrolics into the head actuator. That is why direct couple became a
product. And that group built ASP.
Joe Morris
>There was also "ASP", done by SEs out of lockheed ... which eventually
>was also picked up by the g'burg group, became a product and renamed
>JES3. My wife was in the g'burg group at the time and she got to be
>one of the ASP catchers ... starting out reading the ASP listings and
>generating a PLM.
H'mmm ... HASP started life outside NASA as a Type-3 program (i.e.,
written by one or more IBM employees but not a supported IBM product)
but was ASP ever distributed by IBM as anything other than an official
Type-1 offering? (My experience was exclusively on the HASP side
of the house, where we had (1) full source distribution, (2) quick
support for new OS/360 releases, and (3) much better songs at SHARE.)
Besides, as a Type-3 program the support team could be assured of
getting a laugh at presentations by showing a vugraph of its official
vehicle: the Volkswagen "Type 3".
HASP-y days are here a-gain,
Fixed core is at an all-time min,
To run without it is a sin,
HASP-y days are here a-gain!
Joe Morris
LeeWarriner
go to http://www.share.org/proceedings/sh93/shares99.html and look at
session 2728 under the JES3 project.
This traces "JES3 History" From to 1959 current. You even get a short
history of how this session came about. It was first given in 1989 at
SHARE.
Lee
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
Author: owner-i...@bama.ua.edu at SMTP
Date: 02/29/2000 3:01 AM
Hall, Ken , ECSS
"Asymmetric".
Something like "Asymmetric Spool Processor", or similar. I never understood
why it was called that until I got here and found out how JES3 works, with
the GLOBAL/LOCAL concept.
There WAS an "Attached Processor", but it was a hardware upgrade to the
3031/3033 and other boxes. An extra CPU that had no channels.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Graeme Gibson [SMTP:gra...@ASE.COM.AU]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 6:51 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
Metz, Seymour
AFAIK, he never worked at Suitland. The only connection were that there is a
lot of energy in the weather and that the wind blows a lot of particles
around.
"We're all Bosons on this bus." FT
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 5:17 PM
>
> And I only knew of one place using it, that was NOAA in Suitland MD. they
> had 3 370/195's in their ASP complex.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Metz, Seymour
never heard of a port of DCS to a 1410, and a 1401 would have been out of
the question. Perhaps you're thinking of the common use of a 1401 as an
offline card/tape, tape/card and tape/printer machine for, e.g., 7070, 7080,
7090.
Anyone remember the origin of the word SPOOL?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Graeme Gibson [SMTP:gra...@ASE.COM.AU]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 6:51 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> Re: ASP. "Attached" sounds right to me, wasn't the original concept to
> have a small processor doing card/print spooling to support a
> heavyweight processor doing the data crunching? Wasn't this also done
> earlier on using 1401/70xx?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Maynard
> HASP-y days are here a-gain,
> Fixed core is at an all-time min,
> To run without it is a sin,
> HASP-y days are here a-gain!
Allow me to beg, on behalf of the folks using MVT on their Linux systems
with the Hercules emulator, for a clean, installable copy of HASP...I'll
give the first one to come up with one a case of his or her favorite beer.
(Or equivalent.)
Think we're nuts? Check out http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm
and http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360 .
Barry Finkel
That was its original name. IBM later changed its name to
Asymmetric Multiprocessor System (IIRC)
[ASymmetric multiProcessor system] The acronym sort-of fit.
> And I only knew of one place using it, that was NOAA in Suitland MD. they
> had 3 370/195's in their ASP complex.
We had 2 3033's and a 370/195 in our final ASP configuration before we
migrated to MVS.
--Barry Finkel
Hall, Ken , ECSS
I looked at the SHARE presentation mentioned in an earlier post, and it's
called "Attached Support Processor" in there. No mention of the version I
heard back in '73.
Glad to see my memory hasn't COMPLETELY gone...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Finkel [SMTP:b19...@ACHILLES.CTD.ANL.GOV]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:18 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
Metz, Seymour
(sic) in the name. How much is it worth to you to make me drag out the
manuals?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:38 AM
>
> CUNY ran ASP in 1973, and I'm almost certain the 'A' in ASP stood for
> "Asymmetric".
>
> Something like "Asymmetric Spool Processor", or similar. I never
> understood
> why it was called that until I got here and found out how JES3 works, with
> the GLOBAL/LOCAL concept.
>
> There WAS an "Attached Processor", but it was a hardware upgrade to the
> 3031/3033 and other boxes. An extra CPU that had no channels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Metz, Seymour
on the 709; I don't recall whether it was used on the 7030 ("Stretch").
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Cartwright [SMTP:DaveCar...@UK.AGCOCORP.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:25 AM
>
> >Anyone remember the origin of the word SPOOL?
> >
> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
>
> As I recall on the 1410 it was Simultaneous Peripheral Operation On Line
Dave Cartwright
>Anyone remember the origin of the word SPOOL?
>
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
As I recall on the 1410 it was Simultaneous Peripheral Operation On Line
DC
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Hall, Ken , ECSS
from doc that CUNY sent around to the schools. Given that half the time
even different people within IBM aren't sure what the acronyms really mean,
I wouldn't stake my life on their being correct.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour [SMTP:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:35 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> Are you a betting man? ;-) There's neither an "asymemetric" nor a "Spool"
> (sic) in the name. How much is it worth to you to make me drag out the
> manuals?
>
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:38 AM
> >
> > CUNY ran ASP in 1973, and I'm almost certain the 'A' in ASP stood for
> > "Asymmetric".
> >
> > Something like "Asymmetric Spool Processor", or similar. I never
> > understood
> > why it was called that until I got here and found out how JES3 works,
> with
> > the GLOBAL/LOCAL concept.
> >
> > There WAS an "Attached Processor", but it was a hardware upgrade to the
> > 3031/3033 and other boxes. An extra CPU that had no channels.
>
LeeWarriner
was the configuration at that time.
Lee
> And I only knew of one place using it, that was NOAA in Suitland MD. they
> had 3 370/195's in their ASP complex.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM (Hall, Ken , ECSS) writes:
> CUNY ran ASP in 1973, and I'm almost certain the 'A' in ASP stood for
> "Asymmetric".
>
> Something like "Asymmetric Spool Processor", or similar. I never understood
> why it was called that until I got here and found out how JES3 works, with
> the GLOBAL/LOCAL concept.
>
> There WAS an "Attached Processor", but it was a hardware upgrade to the
> 3031/3033 and other boxes. An extra CPU that had no channels.
IBM attached processors showed up with 158s & 168s ... two processor
shared-memory configurations with one of the processors not having any
channels/IO.
303x were repackaged 370s with channel director in place of
channels. channel director was a stripped down 158 processor with the
370 microcode replaced with the channel director microcode & supported
six channels.
3031 was 158 with a channel director (3031ap ... could be 3-5 158
processors, two 158 processors with 370 microcode, & one of the "370s"
connected to channel director(s) ... aka a 158 running channel
director code).
3032 was 168 with a channel director.
3033 was in some sense the 168 logic mapped to newer & faster
technology.
a sixteen channel configuration had three channel directors.
then there was 3081 with a pair of processors sharing a channel
subsystem.
random references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#14
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7
there are descriptions about tightly-coupled, symmetric
multiprocessing (all the processors in shared-memory configuration
having the same capabilities) and tightly-coupled, asymmetric
multiprocessing (not all the processors in shared-memory configuration
having the same configuration. AP (attached processor) configurations
would be an example of tightly-coupled asymmetric multiprocessing.
Then there is loosely-coupled multiprocessing (processors operating in
concert w/o sharing memory) but sharing various kinds of I/O. These
days these kinds of configurations are also talked about as
"clusters".
However, there are also the genre of "shared-nothing" clusters
... machines operating in concert but only coordinated to the extent
of communication and various forms of message passing.
random references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#14
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71
Bob Halpern
shared between a 1410 and a 7094 (that was what was installed at WDPC for
the implementation). When it was not going to work out, the Simpson/
Crabtree Direct Couple done at Houston was brought to WDPC to implement
the Direct Couple Product. An IBM CE, Dave Bottles, came up with an idea
and modified the hardware for a direct interrups and IBSYS was modified
to support it.
The combinations were the 7040 or 7044 as the support machine and the
7090 and all combinations of the models of the 7094 as the processing
system.
SPOOL is Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.
"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> Before ASP there was DCS, but that was a 7040-7090 or 7044-7094 pair; I
> never heard of a port of DCS to a 1410, and a 1401 would have been out of
> the question. Perhaps you're thinking of the common use of a 1401 as an
> offline card/tape, tape/card and tape/printer machine for, e.g., 7070, 7080,
> 7090.
>
> Anyone remember the origin of the word SPOOL?
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Graeme Gibson [SMTP:gra...@ASE.COM.AU]
> > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 6:51 PM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
> >
> > Re: ASP. "Attached" sounds right to me, wasn't the original concept to
> > have a small processor doing card/print spooling to support a
> > heavyweight processor doing the data crunching? Wasn't this also done
> > earlier on using 1401/70xx?
>
Metz, Seymour
earlier than the 709, but the 7030 seems like a plausible candidate.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 11:21 AM
>
> SPOOL is Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles F Hankel
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@adcomsys.net> writes:
>
> Besides, as a Type-3 program the support team could be assured of
> getting a laugh at presentations by showing a vugraph of its official
> vehicle: the Volkswagen "Type 3".
>
> Fixed core is at an all-time min,
> To run without it is a sin,
> HASP-y days are here a-gain!
And here am I stuck with the Ian Dury classic:
Hex and bugs and job control
Are all my brain and body need.
Hex and bugs and job control
Are very good indeed.
--
Charles F Hankel
It's only net news but I like it.
Bob Halpern
and predates the 1401.
Metz, Seymour
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 1:15 PM
>
> I do remember it (SPOOL) from the NCR 304, and that was prior to 1960
> and predates the 1401.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Halpern
museum being built in northern california. See if he has any input. We
both worked on the SWAC in the late 1950's, before the 709 (around the
650). Maybe he, or one of his contacts has a "historical moment".
I also remember the term in referencing the replacement of the offline
card to tape and tape to print and tape to card machines. But the time
around then was the 1401 doing the dirty work.
Klaus Dahlenburg
"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> OS/VS1 had a job entry subsystem, but that JES was not an ancestor to either
> JES2 or JES3.
I think it was called HASP --> Huston Asynchronous Spool Monitor. At least
we used to call it that way and we ran it on our OS/VS1 R4 in 1975 as far as
I can recall it correct.
Klaus Dahlenburg
Metz, Seymour
was before my time ;-)
My recollection is that it was the 1401 that killed interest in SPOOL on the
707x and 709x lines; the unit record equipment on the big iron was truly
archaic, so the 1402 and 1403 looked like big steps up from the equipment
supported by SPOOL.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 1:34 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> Yes. So I just sent the question to a friend involved with new computer
> museum being built in northern california. See if he has any input. We
> both worked on the SWAC in the late 1950's, before the 709 (around the
> 650). Maybe he, or one of his contacts has a "historical moment".
>
> I also remember the term in referencing the replacement of the offline
> card to tape and tape to print and tape to card machines. But the time
> around then was the 1401 doing the dirty work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Halpern
carried to the 70xx machines. Shared file was to be SPOOL, but did not
work out, so Direct Couple came on the scene. In many shops that decided
not to use an attached system, 1401 with unit record gear replaced the old
"stuff".
Where Direct Couple was turned into a commercial product, we also had
a 1410 doing computer assisted instruction. The 1050 terminals came into a
7740 front end which could switch them between the 1410 and a 7044 DCS
front end. The batch devices were all STR format (e.g. 7702) and went
only into DCS. This all predated the 360.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:
> SWAC? Now I don't feel so old; there's someone who worked on a machine that
> was before my time ;-)
>
> My recollection is that it was the 1401 that killed interest in SPOOL on the
> 707x and 709x lines; the unit record equipment on the big iron was truly
> archaic, so the 1402 and 1403 looked like big steps up from the equipment
> supported by SPOOL.
like 1401N1 printer & 2540 card reader punch
my first programming job in school was porting something called MPIO
from 1401 to 360/30. The university had 709 with 1401 front-end
handling unit record. Tapes were moved back & forth between 709 tape
drives and 1401 tape drives. The 30 could be used in 1401 hardware
emulation mode ... but the university paid me to re-implement all the
function running as 370 program. It still had to accept handle 709 bcd
& 709 binary. bcd was subset of 360 ... but 709 binary cards used all
twelve punch rows. Had to play games with read-no-feed & if got an
error reading the card ... reread it with "column binary" ... which
mapped 80 column card into 160 byte positions.
random references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#53
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#4
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#21
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#21
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#9
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#13
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#59
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#93
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#130
Metz, Seymour
saw was a refit of HASP II (presumably 4.1) to run under OS/VS1.
BTW, it's Houston Automatic Spooling Priority.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Klaus Dahlenburg [SMTP:kdb...@attglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:40 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imbriale, Donald , Exchange
***********************************************************************
Bear Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation,
offer or agreement or any information about any transaction, customer
account or account activity contained in this communication.
***********************************************************************
Hall, Ken , ECSS
ran it on their 360/50. My school had a 2770 RJE station to BC.
Prior to that we had some other kind of station that talked to something
called CRBE-20.
I bumped into HASP again as an operator in 1973, on a 370/155. When I
started, we were running "raw" MFT, with manually started readers, writers,
etc. HASP went in about 2 weeks before I left, and was a big improvement,
except tasks we USED to be able to start from the console had to be read in
from cards for some reason. There was also another problem that didn't get
resolved while I was there, where HASP would think a job was running on a
system, when in fact it was not, and would report over and over that it had
exceeded it's allowed time. Very weird.
The operators loved it though, because you could reprint a job that the
printer had screwed up as long as you caught it before it finished printing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour [SMTP:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 3:40 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> No, HASP was much older than than OS/VS1 and didn't come with it. What you
> saw was a refit of HASP II (presumably 4.1) to run under OS/VS1.
>
> BTW, it's Houston Automatic Spooling Priority.
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Klaus Dahlenburg [SMTP:kdb...@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:40 PM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
> >
> > "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> > >
> > > OS/VS1 had a job entry subsystem, but that JES was not an ancestor to
> > either
> > > JES2 or JES3.
> >
> > I think it was called HASP --> Huston Asynchronous Spool Monitor. At
> least
> > we used to call it that way and we ran it on our OS/VS1 R4 in 1975 as
> far
> > as
> > I can recall it correct.
>
Steve Myers
Try doing that on a 2501!
I got involved in the use of mark sense cards. The only way to read those
suckers was on a 2501. in binary. Naturally, they had to co-exist with
regular cards.
We got a HASP mod from someone -- can't remember who -- to do a binary to
EBCDIC translation, or a mark sense translation, if that was required.
The whole mark sense thing was such a disaster I don't think it ever
actually got implemented.
One of my first /360 programs was to read a 7040 output tape --
fortunately, not a mixed mode tape -- and write the print data on the tape.
The first version of the program crashed a Rel 13 (I think) MFT system.
The second version worked OK.
-- Steve Myers
Jim Harrison
advancing age (oops, pretend I didn't say that word - might start another
recurring thread) and resultant loss of memory, this thread periodically
reappears every year or two. And nearly word for word at that! <g>
At 03:55 PM 2/29/00 -0500, Imbriale, Donald (Exchange) wrote:
>Hasn't this horse been beaten enough?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme Gibson
S/360, the two 1401s were often idle. I wrote a little machine code
1401 program to read and print report files written to tape on DOS or
OS/360, interpreting the machine or ASA carriage control. We used this
especially for large reports, it helped get stuff out the door quicker
as printing was often a bottleneck. I can remember some reports that
took days to print. And for special print runs like stock certificates
and cheques or when printing on 3, 4 or 5 part 15x11, the old 1403s gave
better print quality because they moved the paper more slowly and you
didn't get as much smudging. Who loved the smell of the carbon paper in
fresh multi-part?
regards,
Graeme.
"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
<snips>
> My recollection is that it was the 1401 that killed interest in SPOOL on the
> 707x and 709x lines; the unit record equipment on the big iron was truly
> archaic, so the 1402 and 1403 looked like big steps up from the equipment
> supported by SPOOL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Samson
having to live through it...
Jim Harrison wrote:
>
> You obviously haven't been around this group very long. Because of our
> advancing age (oops, pretend I didn't say that word - might start another
> recurring thread) and resultant loss of memory, this thread periodically
> reappears every year or two. And nearly word for word at that! <g>
>
> At 03:55 PM 2/29/00 -0500, Imbriale, Donald (Exchange) wrote:
>
> >Hasn't this horse been beaten enough?
> >
>
Jon Tveten
sm...@NSF.GOV says...
> No, HASP was much older than than OS/VS1 and didn't come with it. What you
> saw was a refit of HASP II (presumably 4.1) to run under OS/VS1.
We used HASP II with OS/MFT II in 1970-71 and our operators was not happy
with JES when we changed over to OS/VS1, especially the handling of
sysout queues.
Jon Tveten.