Government control
SorG Farkas
"And was it increased government control that led to the decay of American
inner cities, high unemployment, environmental degredation, and the decline
of the hinterland?"
There are many, who claim that this decay was caused by the paternalistic
welfare state that essentially got large numbers (generations) of recipients
hooked on welfare.
"Governments work only to the extent that people allow."
Except when there is no democracy and some dictatorial form of government
imposes its will upon the people (not so unusual in the past few thousand
years).
" You're 'capitalist realism' is not very appealing. You seem to be content
knowing that people in Hungary will now have to work harder and with no job
security.
This was the job security where "they pretended they were paying us and we
pretended we were working".
"And people will have to do this to make the 'boss' richer".
In most cases the "boss" is the shareholder. Look at ADM, their largest
shareholder is the California State Employee's Pension Plan. This plan is
pressuring ADM to improve the share price. How do you think they will do it?
By improving efficiency.
"I don't know the current situation in Hungary, but in Canada, many people
are now working at two jobs just to make ends meet. "
One of the reasons for this the excessive taxation the Canadian government
imposes on its people.
Farkas D. Gabor
Johanne L. Tournier
>Joe Szalai writes:
>"And was it increased government control that led to the decay of American
>inner cities, high unemployment, environmental degredation, and the decline
>of the hinterland?"
>
>There are many, who claim that this decay was caused by the paternalistic
>welfare state that essentially got large numbers (generations) of recipients
>hooked on welfare.
You are referring to the fact that the welfare system has actually helped to
create the new American underclass, by discouraging, among other things,
traditional marriage and the idea of two-parent families, because, in order
to get Aid to Dependent Children, the father in most cases must be out of
the home. Andras's factors of cheap gas and the mortgage interest tax
deduction may also have a tangential impact on the decay of the cities.
Another element in Andras's equation might also be the fact that the cities
traditionally had higher rates of taxation to support a greater number of
services provided to their residents. Thus, housing in the suburbs was more
affordable, and, of course, city dwellers also looked for the relatively
wide open spaces in the suburbs. I believe all these are legitimate factors
to be taken into account in considering the decline of American cities. But
in any case, very little of that is the direct fault of capitalism. A great
deal of it is the fault of misguided, muddled bureaucrats and politicians,
who are trying to do social engineering through the Tax Code other
government legislation and persist in the belief that they know how to
spend your money better than you do.
>
>"Governments work only to the extent that people allow."
>
>Except when there is no democracy and some dictatorial form of government
>imposes its will upon the people (not so unusual in the past few thousand
>years).
See comments above.
>
>" You're 'capitalist realism' is not very appealing. You seem to be content
>knowing that people in Hungary will now have to work harder and with no job
>security.
>
>This was the job security where "they pretended they were paying us and we
>pretended we were working".
This was formerly very much the same in Canada. The system worked great,
except that the government kept rolling up huger and huger deficits.
Everybody likes the system of social services, because, as Eva B. said in
regards to Hungary, everybody feels those services are "free," they don't
realize the true cost, so they take advantage of the system. The cuts in
government services were begun by the Conservatives in the federal and
provincial (here in Nova Scotia) governments, but they have been continued
by the Liberals, both federally and provincially. The Canadians are going
through *exactly* the same process that the Hungarians are going through,
although probably on a reduced scale, because, as James Doepp said, in
effect they are coming down from a high, which was the artificial
maintenance of a high standard of living. In Canada, this was largely based
on borrowing from the future, in the form of running up large deficits.
What is frustrating here, and I imagine in Hungary as well, is that the tax
burdens have stayed as high if not higher than before, at the same time that
services are being cut.
>
>"And people will have to do this to make the 'boss' richer".
This reminds me of James Doepp's comment that sometimes profit cannot be
measured in money, and JoeG. challenged him to explain how that could be.
Well, maybe, I have an example. I am an employer, with one employee, a
full-time secretary. Now that I am operating my own computer, especially, I
sometimes question whether I need a secretary at all, in the sense that my
business might be more profitable if I was not paying her. However, there is
an intangible benefit to me (to my mental well-being, if you will) knowing
that I can be away from my office and my clients will still be able to deal
with a real live person. There is a benefit to my clients that there is
virtually always someone at my office during regular working hours, which I
think enhances my reputation in the community. And I feel there is a benefit
to her, in the sense that I have sacrificed, sometimes borrowed money on my
credit card, in order to keep her working full time and paid on schedule -
in other words, I am doing as much as I can to give her job security. I feel
this "profits" me in the sense of intangible satisfaction with my profession
and my life. James D. has alluded to this, but Joe G. seems to refuse to
believe that any sense of morality is consistent with the market. The market
may be impersonal, but that is because it is only a tool, it is not an end
in itself, unlike what Joe G. believes.
By the way, something I am a firm believer in, and which has not been
touched on by any commentator so far, is that I believe one reason that
practically all societies seem to be in decline is that they are really set
up on a scale which is far too large for human comprehension. That was one
reason I appreciated settling in Canada. The whole country had about 24
million people in a larger territory than the U.S., and there were only 2600
people in the town where I live. I had never lived in a small town before I
came here, but I found that a lot of the little niceties of human behavior
mean more when you know the people you are dealing with every day.
(Unfortunately, it is a little harder for people to maintain all those
little niceties when the economy is going down the toilet, thanks to
government cutbacks and the decline in the fishery, which I might add is at
least partly due to the government claiming its scientists in Ottawa knew
enough about what was happening to the fishery to determine what the
fishermen should be allowed to catch, and then finding out - too late - that
they were wrong.)
>
>"I don't know the current situation in Hungary, but in Canada, many people
>are now working at two jobs just to make ends meet. "
>
>One of the reasons for this the excessive taxation the Canadian government
>imposes on its people.
Yes, yes, yes!
>Farkas D. Gabor
>
Yours,
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - tour...@ra.isisnet.com
Eva Durant
> There are many, who claim that this decay was caused by the paternalistic
> welfare state that essentially got large numbers (generations) of recipients
> hooked on welfare.
>
You should let people starve, and see what happens? It was done
in the past, and didn't work...
There are not enough vacancies. Please comper numbers of unemployed,
and numbers of jobs available. Notice the discrepency.
And if a job is not decent enough to pay a living wage
"the market value", than it shouldn't be taken, it can be more
demoralizing and humiliating to work hard and still not making
as good as they tell you you should. The market could do with
slave labour - is that what you really want?
Eva Durant
John Czifra
Gabor Farkas wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
" You're 'capitalist realism' is not very appealing. You seem to be content
knowing that people in Hungary will now have to work harder and with no job
security.
This was the job security where "they pretended they were paying us and we
pretended we were working".
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
True, but not really. There were a lot of hard workers and those who worked the
hardest didn't belong to the party and suffered the most to get ahead. Those in
the upper ranks didn't have to flinch and are raking in the dough. Biggest
example is the MegaMorv company in Heves megye.
Now, this is getting more and more interesting everyday. I love this list!!
Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
Johanne L. Tournier
>> Felado : tour...@ra.isisnet.com [United States]
>I agree that the misguided criteria of Aid to Dependent Children was a factor
>(though I hasten to add that such social programs, based on more carefully
>drafted criteria, are in fact necessary). But I also think that it is a factor
>of secondary, if not tertiary, importance. Johanne, you will want to compare
>the sums of money involved in the $1 vs. the $4 gasoline (which it would be if
>it was priced in European style) and the revenue lost because of the mortgage
>deduction with the sums involved in Aid to Dependent Children. Altogether
>(and I don't want to tar Johanne with this brush) I'm always surprised by the
>irrationality of much of Republican politics. They spend the longest time
>attacking small but ideologically hot-buttonish portions of the budget while
>pass over large portions in deafening silence.
Dear Andra's -
Thank you for not tarring me with that brush! I must admit, however, that I
am a lifelong Republican, although I often think that the Republican Party
of today is not the party I grew up with. Be that as it may, just because an
issue is a hot-button one doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. After all,
I think you push a lot of Joe Szalai's hot buttons with your propositions,
does that mean you shouldn't raise those issues?
In the case of ADC, it is an issue that causes an emotional response as soon
as it is brought up. I agree with you that the dollar amount spent on ADC is
probably a lot less than that represented by cheap gas. But I am not
quibbling about the amount spent, my argument is that the present welfare
system helps create a cycle of dependency which in some cases goes on for
generation after generation. The system has helped to break down the
traditional family ties. Many single mothers have kids when they themselves
are no more than 14 or 15 years old, and they are not really capable of
providing guidance for kids.The boys run in gangs and drugs - much harder
now than those on the street 30 years ago, I understand - are rampant. There
is little meaningful guidance from adults , and the peer group becomes the
most important influence. The kids often grow up essentially sociopathic.
The society has become too big and impersonal to provide effective positive
role models for these kids, and there is no deterrence which has any real
impact on them, because they know that they in most cases will only get a
slap on the wrist.
What the hell is happening to
>the peace dividend? Does anybody still remember that a peace divident was
>promised by a Republican administration? We are talking of massive trillions
>here, something that would have significant impact on the deficit. Instead, it
>is Senator Helms against the NEA, or Newt Gingrich against PBS. I must say I
>also blame the Democrats, because in the final analysis who the hell cares
>about the NEA one way or another (except for the lucky recipients, same as
>with shorgum price supports)? Why should the Democrats bother to defend
>insignificant stuff like PBS? (I love PBS and I send them money every year,
>but I don't think the middle class needs this or other government handouts.)
>Get with the program, fellas, on both sides of the aisle.
>
>Andra1s Kornai
I think you answered your own question about what happened to the peace
dividend! (Although personally I would love to see the money spent on PBS
than on a lot of other gov't programs).
Eva Durant
> You are referring to the fact that the welfare system has actually helped to
> create the new American underclass, by discouraging, among other things,
> traditional marriage and the idea of two-parent families, because, in order
> to get Aid to Dependent Children, the father in most cases must be out of
> the home.
The one-parent family was "encouraged" first by "absentee"
working fathers, who had to work so long hours, that they had no
time to take part in the upbringing of their kids. Women had achieved
the right to draw money on their own name and had a chance first
time to leave souldestroying marriages. If teenage-pregnancy
is on the rise, it's due to the low educational levels of large
number of girls, for whom to achieve independence from their
parents can be only attained by having babies.
I'd like to add, that state benefit payments are smaller,
than tax-consessions and subsidies (handouts) to the corporate
section. The state cannot distribute wealth fairly, as
it exist to save the decrepit system. If it made some excuse
for redestribution, it had other less philanthropic reasons,
such as avoidance of violence from the unemployed, etc.
What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much
against teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would
ban sex-education in schools and abortion on demand/free.
> little niceties when the economy is going down the toilet, thanks to
> government cutbacks and the decline in the fishery, which I might add is at
You told me, government handouts make people lazy... I see.
Only some people at selected places...
Eva Durant
SorG Farkas
>>
>You should let people starve, and see what happens? It was done in the
past, and didn't work...
How was it done in the past? I did not say that people shold be starved.
However, keeping them on welfare with incentives not to work leads to whole
several generations of welfare families, where no one even konws that there
is any other way of earning a living.
>There are not enough vacancies. Please comper numbers of unemployed, and
numbers of jobs available. Notice the discrepency.
There are plenty of jobs. But some are somewhat choosy.
>And if a job is not decent enough to pay a living wage "the market value",
than it shouldn't be taken, it can be more demoralizing and humiliating to
>work hard and still not making as good as they tell you you should. The
market could do with slave labour - is that what you really want?
Market value is what the market can bear. What do you mean by "as they tell
you you should"? Who is doing the telling? The government? The Socialist Party?
Farkas D. Gabor
SorG Farkas
> If teenage-pregnancy is on the rise, it's due to the low educational
levels of large number of girls, for whom to achieve independence from their
parents can be only attained by having babies.
Is it the low educational levels or is it to attain independence from their
parents? Please make up your mind.
>I'd like to add, that state benefit payments are smaller, than
tax-consessions and subsidies (handouts) to the corporate section. The
state cannot >distribute wealth fairly, as it exist to save the decrepit
system. If it made some excusefor redestribution, it had other less
philanthropic reasons,
>such as avoidance of violence from the unemployed, etc.
Another good reason for less government. Let's get the state out of the
wealth distribution business.
>What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much against
teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would ban sex-education in
>schools and abortion on demand/free.
Let's not generalize. I am against teenage pregnancies but for sex education
and for choice. Free abortions? Maybe for those who cannot afford it...
Farkas D. Gabor
Eva Durant
> several generations of welfare families, where no one even konws that there
> is any other way of earning a living.
>
So making them sweeping the streets for their welfare money
would be the solution? There are certainly not enough
decent paying jobs for them. So what is your suggestion?
You don't want to spend on education, I presume...
>
> There are plenty of jobs. But some are somewhat choosy.
>
I don't think it is choosy, if you don't take a job that
doesn't pay you to live as decently as the virtual folk in
ad-world, even if you work 10 hours a day. (And I am not
talking about the human dignity factor.)
>
> Market value is what the market can bear. What do you mean by "as they tell
> you you should"? Who is doing the telling? The government? The Socialist
Party?
>
> Farkas D. Gabor
The market is very happy with millions of unemployed, thank you very
much. It is a lovely tool to keep the wages down and the hours up for
those, who are working. The media is indistiguishable part of
the establishment. What Socialist Pary you are talking about?
Eva Durant
Eva Durant
> > If teenage-pregnancy is on the rise, it's due to the low educational
> levels of large number of girls, for whom to achieve independence from their
> parents can be only attained by having babies.
>
> Is it the low educational levels or is it to attain independence from their
> parents? Please make up your mind.
>
Both, just as I put it above.
> >I'd like to add, that state benefit payments are smaller, than
> tax-consessions and subsidies (handouts) to the corporate section. The
> state cannot >distribute wealth fairly, as it exist to save the decrepit
> system. If it made some excusefor redestribution, it had other less
> philanthropic reasons,
> >such as avoidance of violence from the unemployed, etc.
>
> Another good reason for less government. Let's get the state out of the
> wealth distribution business.
>
If your despised state wouldn't have done anything so far,
we probably got rid off capitalism ages ago. Those
capitalists with a bit of longer sights than yours saved/prolonged
your beloved system.
> >What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much against
> teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would ban sex-education in
> >schools and abortion on demand/free.
>
> Let's not generalize. I am against teenage pregnancies but for sex education
> and for choice. Free abortions? Maybe for those who cannot afford it...
>
> Farkas D. Gabor
Nice to see a silver lining on those clouds...
Eva Durant
Johanne L. Tournier
>> discussed.
>mistake to let small but ideologically charged issues overshadow less charged
>but in real (dollar) terms larger issues.
Dear Andra's -
But I hope you understand that my point was that the social cost of ADC is
out of proportion to the number of dollars spent. I also agree with you that
the other items are also factors in the U.S. But I just thought of
something. When I came to Canada in 1977, I appreciated the lovely downtown
core in Halifax, which presented such a contrast from decaying American
center cities. I think many Nova Scotians would agree that the downtown core
in Halifax has been deteriorating noticeably in the last few years. Many
businesses are leaving the area, and I believe the crime rate is also the
highest of any city in Canada. Hard drugs like crack seem to be a major
problem, and teenagers are becoming more violent, with a phenomenon called
"swarming" having been observed, where ten or twelve young kids may attack
and beat a person. But, there is no mortgage interest deduction in Canada
and I pay $2.40/gal. for gas, so I think you can observe the decline
occurring here, but there must be a different set of factors at work.
.The boys run in gangs and drugs - much harder
>> now than those on the street 30 years ago, I understand - are rampant.
Just to put the matter in the proper perspective, marijuana is the
>single largest cash crop in California. To leave it out of consideration would
>be like to leave the black economy (now estimated at 30% of the total
>Hungarian economy) out of consideration when discussing reforms. The dominant
>factor in the economy of the inner city is drugs, by cash flow, number of
>people employed, or any measure you choose. Compared to the money channelled
>through drugs, ADC is a marginal matter.
Well, I did allude to drugs, but you're right, it may be that the impact of
the drug culture in the inner cities (and elsewhere?) is far more insidious
than it is generally given credit for. But I also think drug abuse is a
symptom of a wider disease and not just the cause of the problem.
>
>> >What the hell is happening to the peace dividend? Does anybody still
>> >remember that a peace divident was promised by a Republican administration?
>> >We are talking of massive trillions here, something that would have
>> >significant impact on the deficit.
>>[...]
>> I think you answered your own question about what happened to the peace
>> dividend! (Although personally I would love to see the money spent on PBS
>> than on a lot of other gov't programs).
>Well perhaps I answered it, but not so that I would have noticed. Would you
>please elaborate?
>
Okay, now I am not an expert on this, but I suspect that -
1) some of the "peace dividend" talk may have been just election hype;
2) military procurements and spending *are* down, but a large
percentage of what is considered to be "defense spending" actually represent
pension payments to retired servicemen, from which no "peace dividend"
savings would be realized;
3) the rest, and this is what I thought you were alluding to, I am sure
was promptly spent in the form of payments on the interest on the deficit,
new government programs, including pork, and so on by a greedy Congress,
which, of course, finds itself unable to reefrain from spending any extra
funds which may come into its hands.
It would be a good idea to remind the politicoes about the idea of the
"peace dividend" and call them to account for why it seems to have
evaporated. Unfortunately, many of the politicians who bruited it about seem
to have left the scene. Maybe some astute observer could be inquire of Bill
Clinton as to the whereabouts of the peace dividend.
Yours respectfully,
Johanne L. Tournier
>The one-parent family was "encouraged" first by "absentee"
>working fathers, who had to work so long hours, that they had no
>time to take part in the upbringing of their kids.
Dear Eva -
I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I can say that my parents
were separated all my life, so most weeks I only saw my father for one day -
though we often talked on the phone - but he was a wonderful, warm and
affectionate father who had a great influence on me. We lived with my
grandparents, and my grandfather was an engineer who worked till he was 81
(after he retired, it took 3 men to replace him!) - and he also had a great
and lasting influence on me. I don't think you can lay the blame on the
initial disintegration of the family on fathers being absent due to job
demands - I don't think absence is that significant if the parents are
actively involved with the offspring when they *are* around. The problem
with many kids today is that there is no effective parental figure in their
lives, at an early enough time in their lives to make an impact. (I will
give due credit, though, to many strong women and men, who, if they are
caring, can do an effective job of raising youngsters no matter what type of
family situation they are in).
Women had achieved
>the right to draw money on their own name and had a chance first
>time to leave souldestroying marriages.
Now, this is my major field of practice. I do more work on separations and
divorces than any other field of law. In my opinion, children suffer most
often, because it has become too easy to break up the family. The parents
are often engaged in a spiteful tit-for-tat battle, and the kids' needs
really get neglected. These people have gotten married - or in many cases
around here, I should say, lived together in common-law relationships
without getting married - for all the wrong reasons. They have unrealistic
expectations, they are often immature and spoiled. This often applies to
both parents. How can parents provide guidance for children when they have
never grown up themselves?
>I'd like to add, that state benefit payments are smaller,
>than tax-consessions and subsidies (handouts) to the corporate
>section.
I agree with you here. I think government handouts to private businesses are
still handouts, and, in the case of Canada, you have the government giving
handouts to their political cronies. I would be interested to hear if
political patronage and influence are also significant factors in Hungary today.
The state cannot distribute wealth fairly, as
>it exist to save the decrepit system.
The problem is that, once the state gets into the business of
"redistributing", it must take from someone to give to someone else. That is
inherently unfair. Tax loopholes are invented to placate the people with
property. Rich people know how to play the game, and they can afford to pay
people to help them avoid paying taxes. An unfair burden falls on people who
are middle class. And the sneaky government does not take just one payment
from the taxpayer, one ends up paying taxes upon taxes upon taxes. And then
they wonder why productivity is declining in Canada!
>> little niceties when the economy is going down the toilet, thanks to
>> government cutbacks and the decline in the fishery, which I might add is at
>
>You told me, government handouts make people lazy... I see.
>Only some people at selected places...
I was talking about cutbacks in jobs. In my small town of 2600 people in the
last two years, we have seen the Navy Base close - that meant the loss of
140 military jobs and the loss of their families to the Shelburne area,
together with at least that many civilian jobs. The Registries of Deeds and
Probate, the Clerk of the Court, the Sheriff's Office, and the Assessment
Office, which handles property tax matters for our county have been
downsized or are being consolidated and moved elsewhere. Unfortunately, the
nearest large towns where these services are being moved are about 60 or 80
miles away. The government is slashing willy-nilly, without a plan, without
considering the long-term consequences. All that might be bearable in
ordinary times, but the government has simultaneously closed down much of
the fishery, which they were supposedly scientifically managing! It is no
wonder that some of the fishermen now are engaged in occupying the offices
of the Department of Fisheries in Barrington Passage, near my home, and
Sydney, Nova Scotia.
I am not a fisherman, but I often get the feeling that they don't care if
the entire community gets shut down.
I think the lesson, which Hungary is learning bitterly, is that the
government cannot manage our society effectively in many areas of social
engineering which they asserted that they could do. Remember that the
government has always been far more interventionist in Canada than it is in
the States. When I came here, Canadians proudly asserted that they had a
more humane system with their extensive social safety net than the
Americans. I, essentially a libertarian at heart, accepted the Canadian
system on its own terms - sacrifice, pay more in taxes, get back government
services, especially medicare, which all Canadians seemed to appreciate. It
was like they had a contract with the Canadian people. But they seem to have
breached the contract. We still have the obligation to pay the taxes, but
the services are being slashed. Again, I'll echo James Doepp, it's hard
coming down from that artificial high. It would have been less painful, I
think, if people had not become so dependent on the government benefits in
the first place. But everybody likes to think that they can get something
for nothing.
Yours,
Doug Hormann
>against teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would
>ban sex-education in schools and abortion on demand/free.
>
WHAT IS THERE NOT TO UNDERSTAND!! Eva, this is precisely why your
utopian, everybody of one mind working together, socialist theory won't
work. You will never get everyone to agree on sex education, how do you
think you will get them to agree on economics? HELLO! EARTH TO EVA!!!
People are interested in what's best for them. Marx knew that the only way
to get people to accept socialism was to take away their sources of
divisiveness, church, political parties, etc. What he didn't understand
and you apparently don't either is that people won't give this up without a
fight. People happen to like their various religions and other
organizations. PEOPLE LIKE BEING INDIVIDUALS! This is completely
incompatible with socialism as you seem to think it should exist.
In China, there was time when everyone wore the same clothing.
This basically had to be enforced at the barrel of a gun. When this was
relaxed, almost everyone went back to wearing whatever they wanted.
Rather elitist and not very socialistic, but very human. In Hong Kong,
soon to revert to the communists, anyone who can is leaving like rats
leaving a sinking ship. Why? Because they aren't stupid! Socialism
stinks Eva. It doesn't work, and CAN'T because its based on a invalid
theory of human behavior. You'll probably say something to the effect that
socialism will change human behavior. Stalin, Mao and others have tried,
they lost!
You may not like capitalism. That's fine. Ask anyone from the
United States or Australia or Japan if they want to leave. See what they
say. Advocating socialism to cure our social problems is like perscribing
the guillotine to cure baldness. The cure is worse than the disease.
If I sound irritated in this post its because I'm wondering when we
are going to stop this silly argument. I'm tired of downloading 70
messages at a time all rehashing the same thing. Let's move on folks.
Regards,
Doug Hormann
hor...@hevanet.com
Joe Szalai
> You may not like capitalism. That's fine. Ask anyone from the
>United States or Australia or Japan if they want to leave. See what they
>say. Advocating socialism to cure our social problems is like perscribing
>the guillotine to cure baldness. The cure is worse than the disease.
>
> If I sound irritated in this post its because I'm wondering when we
>are going to stop this silly argument. I'm tired of downloading 70
>messages at a time all rehashing the same thing. Let's move on folks.
Doug understands the inherent emptiness of life. Capitalist angst, anyone?
Pssst! Doug?
Let's change the discussion.
Are you interested in channeling or crystals? If your into crystals, I've
got a real good Hungarian crystal that's reputed to cure just about anything
you may suffer from. It's worked wonders for me!
By the way, whats your sign?
Joe Szalai
Eva Durant
> >What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much
> >against teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would
> >ban sex-education in schools and abortion on demand/free.
> >
> >Eva Durant
>
> WHAT IS THERE NOT TO UNDERSTAND!! Eva, this is precisely why your
> utopian, everybody of one mind working together, socialist theory won't
> work.
You didn't get my point. I did not complain about different
opinions here, but demonstrated their contradiction.
If you download stuff, might as well read it carefully,
and than you'll understand, that the democratic and non-
capitalist system I think would work better than the one we have now,
would actually develop the individuality better.
Eva Durant
Stowewrite
<Eva.D...@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> writes:
>You didn't get my point. I did not complain about different
>opinions here, but demonstrated their contradiction.
>If you download stuff, might as well read it carefully,
>and than you'll understand, that the democratic and non-
>capitalist system I think would work better than the one we have now,
>would actually develop the individuality better.
>
>Eva Durant
>
>
>
Yeah, well the "democratic and non-capitalist system" for which you are a
relentless toady dedicated an incredible amount of resources to stifling
individual thought and expression and did it in a distinctly undemocratic
manner. Do you really believe this tripe you ladle out or is this some
strange kind of performance art?
Sam Stowe
DARREN E PURCELL
> Doug understands the inherent emptiness of life. Capitalist angst, anyone?
>
> Pssst! Doug?
>
> Let's change the discussion.
>
> Are you interested in channeling or crystals? If your into crystals, I've
> got a real good Hungarian crystal that's reputed to cure just about anything
> you may suffer from. It's worked wonders for me!
>
> By the way, whats your sign?
>
> Joe Szalai
>
can it cure, anything for grad students that don't sleep?
Darren
Tony and Celia Becker
Hey I think you all just created an interesting new discussion. I like
this. However, for the graduate students that don't/can't sleep, a couple
of bits of experience. Don't try taking 20-21 credits a quarter and working
20+ hours a week (for someone else and money), growing a garden putting up
your own vegies and fruits, sewing your own clothes, all in addition to the
usual stuff that most people do. If you are foolish enough to think you are
superhuman watch out for the friends who figure out that you've had only 5
hours sleep in five days (finals week) and you have begun to hallucinate
besides being unable to sleep. They may waylay you (and include your
significant other in the project) and ply you with Alice B. Toklas brownies,
a great Riesling (so you can't tell what all is in the brownies), and then
get you to sample a little excellent German beer followed by Japanese Saki.
About the time the 3' high samurai warrior shaped container holding the saki
comes to life, it's time to go to bed, but you will not remember much how
you ever got home and got to bed. You will sleep at least 12 hours, and
have no hangover, however.
Re: crystals Edgar Cayce had some interesting things to say about that, so
do Hindu astrologers. However, you need more than the sun sign to make it
work. The crystals are supposed to address unbalanced "magnetic" or
whatever weaknesses in your self as evidenced by your horoscope. Also for
certain situations, you don't wear them, just have them in a strategic
location around you somewhere.
Aww geez, now you know one of my flakier hobbies that I acquired over the
years. Well, I did come to age in the "flower child"-new age era. Then I
aggravated that by living in Minneapolis-St. Paul at about that time. St.
Paul, home of Llewellyn books and one of the largest "new age" bookstores in
the world.
Now I suppose you'll want my horrorscopic data. Sun: Cancer.-7th House
Moon: Scorpio--11th house (means I'm stubborn as Lucifer, among other
things, and very persistent) Rising sign: cusp of Sagittarius-Capricorn
(literally 0 degrees Cap.); Mercury in Gemini (house of its rulership)
conjunct Mars -6th house (energetic imagination and strong thought
processes, also tendency to motor mouth and motor keyboard) Uranus conjunct
Sun-7th House--and Merc., Mars Uranus and Sun thus linked together. Saturn
is in Virgo, 9th house (means I get to travel all kinds of distances, more
so in later life, but most of it unfortunately is likely to be tied to some
sort of work or other--not as much fun, nuts!)
That's the good stuff, unless you count the ability to recycle I guess
exhibited by Pluto conjunct Venus in Leo--Eighth house. Neptune loosely
conjunct the midheaven in Libra can cut either way: mystic or
self-delusionary, or slightly wacky dreamer. Probably more the last one.
Let's see, I'll also probably never be rich, but might have a little extra
"comfort" in my old age.--That's Jupiter in Capricorn on the cusp of the
first and second house. Since Jupiter is part of a T-square and in
opposition to Venus, means I have to struggle a lot to make ends meet and
struggle with my own inclinations to be overly generous.
I wear opals a lot and keep some rough opal around the house to strengthen
the Jupiter. Fortunately Mexican opals are less expensive than Australian,
and then I know where to find some nice Australian style rough in Nevada. I
also keep track of the hobby rock and mineral shows where one can usually
find additional bargains both rough and cut. I'm going to get some of my
Nevada stuff cut up as soon as I can drive again. The family is beginning
to strain my generosity again, among others.
Anyone else willing to jump into what will soon be a quicksand discussion
(especially if Sam notices us--boy is he going to laugh!)
Oh yes, also Scorpios who want to sleep nights should also not accept the
offer to be commander in chief of the armed forces for any East Central
European country with Russia as a neighbor. (Aleks Einseln--Estonia, a
friend of mine)
Ok, Sam, you can stop rolling around on the floor laughing hysterically now.
Have fun.
Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
(Ooh yes, almost forgot to mention, San Jose is the headquarters for the
Rosicrucians of all the Americas and shares "world headquartership" with
France courtesy of a slight mess in the leadership a few years ago. And no
I didn't deliberately plan on living in two "new-age" capitols in one
lifetime...)
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker - bec...@shell.portal.com - San Jose, CA
Eva Durant
> Yeah, well the "democratic and non-capitalist system" for which you are a
> relentless toady dedicated an incredible amount of resources to stifling
> individual thought and expression and did it in a distinctly undemocratic
> manner. Do you really believe this tripe you ladle out or is this some
> strange kind of performance art?
> Sam Stowe
You live in the past. Wake up, and plan for the future by learning
from past mistakes.
Eva Durant
Joe Szalai
>Do you really believe this tripe you ladle out or is this some
>strange kind of performance art?
No, Sam. It is not performance art. It is a soliloquy. What I do, --
soliloquy in an echo chamber, -- is performance art!
And I thought you liked the Hungarian theatre on this newsgroup!
Joe Szalai
Stowewrite
Becker <bec...@SHELL.PORTAL.COM> writes:
>Anyone else willing to jump into what will soon be a quicksand discussion
>(especially if Sam notices us--boy is he going to laugh!)
Excuse me, Mrs. Fa'bos-Becker? I'm sorry, I was casting the tea leaves and
I didn't hear what you said.
Sam Stowe
Stowewrite
<Eva.D...@MAILHOST.MCC.AC.UK> writes:
>You live in the past. Wake up, and plan for the future by learning
>from past mistakes.
>Eva Durant
Ha! Look, everybody, she's losing it! There is apparently no way to bait,
bully or cajole her into discussing the actual performance of
Marxism-Leninism on the ground, as it actually unfolded in Hungary and the
rest of eastern Europe over nearly half a century. She will inevitably try
to avoid the subject by either attempting to divert the focus back onto
capitalism or by suggesting that you do something she herself is
manifestly unwilling to try -- learn from past mistakes. Okay, let's take
a straw poll. Everyone who thinks Elvtars Durant is embarrassing herself
with her transparent hypocrisy, say "Aye." All those who don't, say "No."
Sam Stowe
Stowewrite
street insurgent and NEA grant applicant <jgsz...@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
writes:
>No, Sam. It is not performance art. It is a soliloquy. What I do, --
>soliloquy in an echo chamber, -- is performance art!
>
>And I thought you liked the Hungarian theatre on this newsgroup!
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
This in no way is a justifiable defense for singing in the shower either,
bub. I do like Hungarian theater. But her off-off-off Broadway stuff is
just too one-note shrill and self-important. "Two thumbs way down" --
Siskel and Ebert.
Sam Stowe
Eva S. Balogh
Sam, it is hopeless. Eva Durant has been saying the same things over
and over and over again--it really doesn't matter what anyone else says. She
is a true believer! Her answer to everything is that REAL socialism, REAL
communism haven't been experienced by us yet, but, don't fear, the REAL
thing will inevitably come. You know: the second coming! And it will come by
way of the most democractic of democracies! Of course, here and there, Ms
Durant gets a bit mixed up. On the one hand, she claims that the "letezo
szocializmus" (existing socialism) had nothing to do whatsoever with the
REAL thing, but, on the other, she keeps defending that very "existing
socialism" against all criticism. In those days, Hungarian mothers were
happily bearing children; in those days, although there was no schoolbus, an
ordinary bus took the children to the next village, and Uncle Pista, the
driver, was waiting for all the little tardy children. The village she lived
was the happiest of paradises: toddlers in the nurseries and four- and
five-year-olds in kindergarten, while the teachers were teaching on an
incredibly high level those little Hungarians. And, of course, the living
standards were going up and up and up while, according to Ms. Durant, living
standards have nothing whatsoever to do with economic growth. (It sure
didn't in Kadar's Hungary!) And, of course, now everything is rotten--all
because of capitalism.
Admittedly, Ms. Durant was, until very recently, totally alone on
this list with her ideas (although she claims that she had received many
letters from closet socialists who were "afraid" to express their opinions
openly!). Now, we have our Canadian nationalist-socialist to help her along.
Not being entirely alone must be a great relief to her. But aside from all
the jokes, we mustn't forget that Ms. Durant is not alone. In Hungary,
25,000 people are registered members of the Munkaspart (the unreformed,
unabashedly communist party). They didn't quite receive enough votes to have
parliamentary representation, but it was close (the cut-off point is 5%).
Then there is the so-called Baloldali Tomorules (Left-wing Cluster) of the
MSZMP. Their political views are not terribly far off from those in the
Munkaspart. These people are the true believers but over fifty percent of
the population today think that the Kadar regime and life under it was
preferable to market economy "piacgazdasag").
Of course, I think that Ms. Durant is an extremely naive person, but
she is no longer a teenager and it is unlikely that she will change her
views. (As I mentioned once, with age we all become a little more
conservative, but that generalization doesn't apply to Eva Durant.) So, the
best thing is leave Ms Durant in her happy state of dreaming about the
coming of the REAL thing.
Eva Balogh
Joe Szalai
> Admittedly, Ms. Durant was, until very recently, totally alone on
>this list with her ideas (although she claims that she had received many
>letters from closet socialists who were "afraid" to express their opinions
>openly!). Now, we have our Canadian nationalist-socialist to help her
>along. Not being entirely alone must be a great relief to her.
Eva, you can label me whatever you want, although, I fear that one day
you'll run out of adjectives. What will you do then?
You know, I'll admit that I may be wrong in my views. It wouldn't be the
first time and hopefully it wont be the last. But what I have always done,
and will always continue to do, is to speak up when I see social, economic,
racial, or sexual injustice. And no, I don't have all the answers and
solutions to the worlds problems but I've never found that reason enough to
keep my mouth shut.
You, and several other writers on this list, are apologists for the excesses
of capitalism. You are constantely bringing our attention to yet another
statistic about the number of people abusing this or that system. If we had
an inquisition for those who abuse social programmes, you would be
delighted. The school of hard knocks has certainly taken its toll on you.
You, and others on this list, have shown that your thinking and reasoning
faculties are rather stilted and limited. I criticize capitalism (that is
the name of our economic system, isin't it?) and whammo!, I'm a
socialist/communist/nationalist, worthy of ridicule. Your response is
identical to that system that you love to hate. If anyone had the nerve or
the guts to publically criticize that system, whammo! They were in deep
shit. Yes, I am very greatful that I'm not being dragged off to jail!
You, and others on this list, have something else in common with the
ideologues of the former socialist/communist system. All of you believe
that we have reached the pinnacle of human development and cannot, or are
incapable of, understanding why someone would disagree or criticize your
achievement, especially when that person can't come up with a better plan.
Perhaps you believe that we have reached the end of history.
Joe Szalai
Tony and Celia Becker
Oooo. I like that. Should you ever visit this way, I'll trade you a tarot
or I-Ching reading for a tea leaves casting. ;-)
Cecilia
San Jose, CA, USA
Stowewrite
<ESBa...@IX.NETCOM.COM> writes:
>Of course, I think that Ms. Durant is an extremely naive person, but
>she is no longer a teenager and it is unlikely that she will change her
>views. (As I mentioned once, with age we all become a little more
>conservative, but that generalization doesn't apply to Eva Durant.) So,
the
>best thing is leave Ms Durant in her happy state of dreaming about the
>coming of the REAL thing.
>
> Eva Balogh
I take it we can put you down as a "Yes" vote in our little straw poll.
You know, I'd be happy to leave her in her happy state of dreaming if she
didn't sally forth at every opportunity to spout out this noxious garbage.
But this isn't soc.culture.durant and I figure if she's willing to flog
that creaking old nag ideology of hers around the clubhouse turn every
chance she gets, she can take the heat for it.
Sam Stowe
P.S. -- Here's a question for the group at large -- why does almost
everyone who challenges Durant do so on economic grounds? She's pleased as
punch to babble on ad nauseum when you do. But when I ask her about the
impacts of Marxism-Leninism on human thought, belief and morals, she cooks
off like a hand grenade. Am I the only one on here who isn't locked into a
rigid economics-oriented view of the human condition? (Szalai, get your
fingers off the keyboard right now, young man!)
P.S.S. -- Thanks for the info on political conditions in Hungary. That's
the kind of stuff I love reading about on here.
Eva Durant
> was the happiest of paradises: toddlers in the nurseries and four- and
> five-year-olds in kindergarten, while the teachers were teaching on an
> incredibly high level those little Hungarians. And, of course, the living
> standards were going up and up and up while, according to Ms. Durant, living
> standards have nothing whatsoever to do with economic growth. (It sure
> didn't in Kadar's Hungary!) And, of course, now everything is rotten--all
> because of capitalism.
First, the facts: I've never said it was paradise, and I've never
said, that living standard were growing, as from the end of
the seventies they were not.
All I wanted to point out, that even in a system where there
was a the terrible waste of burocracy etc, etc, some things
were positive, and even better, than in a western country,
even before the years of the loans there were good education,
nurseries, libraries, cheap culture. Is this a fact or not?
In my opinion these are also part of necessary "freedoms"
that are not enjoyed in all current "democracies", however
glorious they look to some correspondents.
> Of course, I think that Ms. Durant is an extremely naive person, but
> she is no longer a teenager and it is unlikely that she will change her
> views. (As I mentioned once, with age we all become a little more
> conservative, but that generalization doesn't apply to Eva Durant.) So, the
> best thing is leave Ms Durant in her happy state of dreaming about the
> coming of the REAL thing.
>
> Eva Balogh
My ego is swollen with pride to be discussed in such details,
what I am eager to hear is a valid argument aainst a future
democratically owned and controlled system, or alternatively,
a few valid points telling me how the present disasterous
trends of capitalism can be overturned.
As I mentioned earlier, I have no particular personal
advantage in believing any point better, except making
more sense. Besides, it seems that I would have a higher
standard of living in a democratic socialist system, and less
worries about the future...
Eva Durant
Doug Hormann
>> Doug understands the inherent emptiness of life. Capitalist angst, anyone?
>>
>> Pssst! Doug?
>>
>> Let's change the discussion.
>>
>> Are you interested in channeling or crystals? If your into crystals, I've
>> got a real good Hungarian crystal that's reputed to cure just about anything
>> you may suffer from. It's worked wonders for me!
>>
>> By the way, whats your sign?
>>
>> Joe Szalai
>>
>Darren would like in on thsi crystal business. Scorpio is my sing. What
>can it cure, anything for grad students that don't sleep?
>
>Darren
Darren,
Sorry I can't help you with sleeping, or with the crystals.
Although for those with an insomnia problem, I might suggest you keep
reading Joe and Eva's posts. I'm beginning to think that they is an
adherent of one or more eastern religions since he likes to keep droning on
with a mantra like quality. Utopian bliss, blah, blah, socialist economic
progress, blah, blah, capitalism bad, socialism good, blah, blah.
Tovarisch Joe,
When you come out of the fog of religious extasy that you've
encased yourself in (socialists are in my view sort of like religious
zealots in their dream of a nirvana like heaven on earth and belief in the
godlike pronouncements of Marx, Lenin et al) you might actually read some
of the posts that have questioned socialism as a viable socio-economic
system. Had you done so, you would find that at least those posts that
I've written show a strong belief that humans don't fit the mold required
by socialist theory. My stance has been pragmatic and somewhat cynical of
human generosity and willingness to forgo the individual for the greater
good. Perhaps that's the cop in me coming out. Anyway, the allusion to
crystals and channeling is humorous, but if anyone here has a mystical view
of the power of humans to transcend their present state into some zombie
like socialist new man....well, look in the mirror.
Regards,
Doug Hormann
hor...@hevanet.com
Doug Hormann
>> >What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much
>> >against teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would
>> >ban sex-education in schools and abortion on demand/free.
>> >
>> >Eva Durant
>>
>> WHAT IS THERE NOT TO UNDERSTAND!! Eva, this is precisely why your
>> utopian, everybody of one mind working together, socialist theory won't
>> work.
>
>
>opinions here, but demonstrated their contradiction.
>If you download stuff, might as well read it carefully,
>and than you'll understand, that the democratic and non-
>capitalist system I think would work better than the one we have now,
>would actually develop the individuality better.
>
>Eva Durant
No Eva, I understand your point perfectly. I just don't believe it.
Regards,
Doug Hormann
hor...@hevanet.com
Doug Hormann
>with her transparent hypocrisy, say "Aye." All those who don't, say "No."
>Sam Stowe
Aye!
Doug Hormann
hor...@hevanet.com
Eva S. Balogh
>First, the facts: I've never said it was paradise, and I've never
>said, that living standard were growing, as from the end of
>the seventies they were not.
Of course, you didn't say it in so many words but the message, with
some exaggeration, was still the same.
>All I wanted to point out, that even in a system where there
>was a the terrible waste of burocracy etc, etc, some things
>were positive, and even better, than in a western country,
>even before the years of the loans there were good education,
>nurseries, libraries, cheap culture. Is this a fact or not?
Oh, that is a fact. The only problem with these services was that
the country's economy didn't provide enough money for their maintenance.
They were subsidized from money borrowed from abroad--thus the incredible
indebtedness of the country. Sure, it would be very nice to have let's say a
sailboat or a house on the shore costing 2 million dollars--but if I don't
have the money to own either, or if I buy them on borrowed money which I am
unable to repay, then I am not really entitled to these goodies. I will have
to give them up or the bank will take them away from me. The same was true
about all those goodies the Kadar government was giving to the population:
they coudn't really afford them.
Eva Balogh
Joe Szalai
> When you come out of the fog of religious extasy that you've
>encased yourself in (socialists are in my view sort of like religious
>zealots in their dream of a nirvana like heaven on earth and belief in the
>godlike pronouncements of Marx, Lenin et al) you might actually read some
>of the posts that have questioned socialism as a viable socio-economic
>system.
In a previous post, when I mentioned that capitalism has a symbiotic need
for waste, I should have mentioned that that need included the intellectual
sphere as well.
What? Did nobody thank you for your contribution?
Joe Szalai
Stowewrite
<Eva.D...@MAILHOST.MCC.AC.UK> writes:
>My ego is swollen with pride to be discussed in such details,
>what I am eager to hear is a valid argument aainst a future
>democratically owned and controlled system, or alternatively,
>a few valid points telling me how the present disasterous
>trends of capitalism can be overturned.
Your swollen ego is already a familiar problem to those of us with even a
passing familiarity with your posts on here. Once again you are trying to
divert critical scrutiny away from the disasterous impacts in actual
practice of the ideology you espouse. We are not talking about what could
be or might be. We are talking about what actually was in Hungary under
the communist regime. You know, you could always claim you were just
following orders.
Sam Stowe
Eva Durant
> zealots in their dream of a nirvana like heaven on earth and belief in the
> godlike pronouncements of Marx, Lenin et al) you might actually read some
> of the posts that have questioned socialism as a viable socio-economic
> I've written show a strong belief that humans don't fit the mold required
> by socialist theory. My stance has been pragmatic and somewhat cynical of
> human generosity and willingness to forgo the individual for the greater
> good. Perhaps that's the cop in me coming out. Anyway, the allusion to
> crystals and channeling is humorous, but if anyone here has a mystical view
> of the power of humans to transcend their present state into some zombie
> like socialist new man....well, look in the mirror.
>
You are mixing with the wrong crowds. You are also building a strawman-
picture. I did not claim any individula sacrifice for the greater
good, thank you very much. It would help if you actually listened to
my ideas, before any personal attacks. Than you'd also notice,
that it has even less to do with any religious-like faith-thing.
Eva Durant
Eva Durant
> P.S. -- Here's a question for the group at large -- why does almost
> everyone who challenges Durant do so on economic grounds? She's pleased as
> punch to babble on ad nauseum when you do. But when I ask her about the
> impacts of Marxism-Leninism on human thought, belief and morals, she cooks
> off like a hand grenade. Am I the only one on here who isn't locked into a
> rigid economics-oriented view of the human condition? (Szalai, get your
> fingers off the keyboard right now, young man!)
>
Would you please give me brief rundown on the inpact of capitalism
on human thought, belief and morals. In the meantime, try to drag
yourself away from the idea, that democratic socialism can be
identified with anything you building up into the usual strawman.
When you'll actually comprehend (I am an optimist obviously)
, what it means and you won't
need yet an other explanation about the advantages of such a
system both economic and ethical.
Eva Durant
Eva Durant
well into the seventies.
Eva Durant
Stowewrite
<Eva.D...@MAILHOST.MCC.AC.UK> writes:
>
>Would you please give me brief rundown on the inpact of capitalism
>on human thought, belief and morals. In the meantime, try to drag
>yourself away from the idea, that democratic socialism can be
>identified with anything you building up into the usual strawman.
>When you'll actually comprehend (I am an optimist obviously)
>, what it means and you won't
>need yet an other explanation about the advantages of such a
>system both economic and ethical.
>Eva Durant
We're not talking about capitalism here. We're talking about
Marxism-Leninism and its impacts on human thought, beliefs and morals.
You aren't even creative enough to come up with a new dodge when I point
out to people that your chosen method of avoiding scrutiny of your
ideological beliefs is to try and divert the conversation away from
Marxism-Leninism onto capitalism. How stupid do you think the readers of
this newsgroup are?
Sam Stowe
Doepp James
came back a year and a half ago. In 1948 the socialists (communists)
took from the rich and the landowners; in the 70s they borrowed from
abroad; now, there is no chance of getting foreign loans, and there are
no rich to take from. Therefore, there can be no turning back.
jim.
\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_
James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc
I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard
\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_