Human systems (Bucky)
James Fischer
Andrew Michael Cohill <Andrew...@bev.net> said:
> I think that if Fuller missed the boat anywhere, he missed it by
> failing to account for some of the human systems changes necessary.
This was more a failure to understand the inertia that
existed at the aerospace/military companies he was trying
to get to manufacture his designs.
These companies had been feeding from the government
trough for so long that they had lost the ability to
even think about a "consumer product", let alone see
the market potential.
A certain amount of marketing is required to get a critical
mass of consumer demand going. There are very very few
"new ideas" that can create their own demand without some
"push" to get them started.
Look at the "Levitt-Towns" (spelling?) of the post-WWII
era. They were a triumph of marketing over design excellence.
Somehow, tract housing was positioned as a desirable item.
If the marketing guys that "sold" Levitt-Town had worked
with Bucky, things might be different today.
As a result of the Levvit-Towns, the US may well have more
1-story "ranch" houses than any other type. This was more
due to the speed and low cost with which this type of house
could be built than any focus-group driven investigation into
what the home-buyer wanted.
To be blunt, the home-buyers got what they deserved. The
same errors continue to this day. "Architecture" has become
something "for the rich", and buyers will drive right by 3
or 4 beautiful 20's-era bungalow-style houses (complete with
woodwork details that could not be reproduced today) on their
way to the latest "development", where unadorned wallboard,
plastic-faced kitchen cabinets, and wall-to-wall carpeting
are the "features".
With peace breaking out all over, the Russkies having their
"going out of business" sale (anyone wanna go half-and-half
on a slightly used nuclear sub?), and a general downsizing
of military budgets, we now have a situation where the
industrial wing of the military-industrial complex is being
FORCED to beat their swords into plowshares. I am involved
in a few of these projects, and it is not a pretty sight.
The Three Stooges could manage the process better than
some of these folks. I'd laugh if not for the number of
jobs on the line.
So much change, so little progress...
james fischer jfis...@supercollider.com
Kirby Urner
James Fischer <jfis...@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM> wrote:
> industrial wing of the military-industrial complex is being
> FORCED to beat their swords into plowshares. I am involved
> in a few of these projects, and it is not a pretty sight.
> The Three Stooges could manage the process better than
> some of these folks. I'd laugh if not for the number of
> jobs on the line.
>
> So much change, so little progress...
>
> james fischer jfis...@supercollider.com
Good post, and I agree with much of it.
On the other side of the coin, we have lots of talented engineers
chomping at the bit for a chance to unleash their imaginations in
the design science sector, now that a lot of the pressure to brainstorm
only more effective killingry is being removed.
From my Nov 25, 96 letter to Dr. Richard Meier, accessible via
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ku_gall.html:
Project Renaissance is about public/private partnerships in the
days when Grunch has more than the latest military designs to
chew on. Sure we can knock out yet another faster, cooler
fighter jet than the world has ever seen, maybe some star wars
ray guns 'n stuff too. But this under utilizes our design
capabilities. Our aerospace engineers would love some new
challenges, ala your comsat cluster info-pods for Africa, for
example, over and above the same old killingry stuff, which is
intensely boring compared to some of the storyboards we could
be working on, minus the political pressure to always furnish
more of the same.
'Grunch' by the way, is Bucky's coin for 'buncha giants' (the
corporations), and also an acronym for 'gross universal cash
heist.' In Bucky's view, the synergies stemming from the
combined megatrends in computerization and networking would
shift the 'space program' away from its narrow focus on probing
the solar neighborhood, and expand it to encompass our home
base, Spaceship Earth. This shift would involve reinvestment of
currency assets in new storyboards, hence the heisting of all
the cash by supranational corporations, with or without the
assistance of yesteryear's cash-sourcing national sovereign-
ties, which latter the Grunch now works to sponsor within
scenarios largely of its own devising.
Kirby
----------------------------------------------------
Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU
Email: pd...@teleport.com
Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/
John Belt
HUMAN SYSTEMS FOR WHAT? FOR WHOM? WHY? WHERE? AT WHAT COSTS?
jb. we need humane systems... more below in reply to and with
james and kirby.
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Kirby Urner wrote:
> James Fischer <jfis...@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM> wrote:
>
> > industrial wing of the military-industrial complex is being
> > FORCED to beat their swords into plowshares. I am involved
> > in a few of these projects, and it is not a pretty sight.
> > So much change, so little progress...
> >
> > james fischer jfis...@supercollider.com
>
> Good post, and I agree with much of it.
>
> On the other side of the coin, we have lots of talented engineers
> chomping at the bit for a chance to unleash their imaginations in
> the design science sector, now that a lot of the pressure to brainstorm
> only more effective killingry is being removed.
>
> >From my Nov 25, 96 letter to Dr. Richard Meier, accessible via
> http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ku_gall.html:
>
> Project Renaissance is about public/private partnerships in the
> days when Grunch has more than the latest military designs to
> chew on. Sure we can knock out yet another faster, cooler
> fighter jet than the world has ever seen, maybe some star wars
> ray guns 'n stuff too. But this under utilizes our design
> capabilities. Our aerospace engineers would love some new
> challenges, ala your comsat cluster info-pods for Africa, for
> example, over and above the same old killingry stuff, which is
> intensely boring compared to some of the storyboards we could
> be working on, minus the political pressure to always furnish
> more of the same.
>
> combined megatrends in computerization and networking would
> shift the 'space program' away from its narrow focus on probing
> the solar neighborhood, and expand it to encompass our home
> base, Spaceship Earth. This shift would involve reinvestment of
> currency assets in new storyboards, hence the heisting of all
> the cash by supranational corporations, with or without the
> assistance of yesteryear's cash-sourcing national sovereign-
> ties, which latter the Grunch now works to sponsor within
> scenarios largely of its own devising.
> Kirby
> Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU
> Email: pd...@teleport.com
> Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/
>
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Hello ALL , i agree with the essence of both of these messages
very much. I would like to make the point that if taken point by point
that the essence of my earlier post of the message written by Oren Lyons
points to the same concerns in a stern but caring way also. Maybe if i
had tossed in a little Fullerese it may have been received differently.
In the list heading does "for the discussion of Fullers works" mean past
work as history or does it include Fuller's work (currently) by us, with
his help and beyond. He wanted the work to go forward, solve the
problems to EQUALize humanity and make war obsolete. We do have Fuller's
record of experience as we have Leonardo's notebooks and with examination
it makes me feel that Fuller's commitment to not doing weaponary may have
come from that history lesson. If any of you know of anything written or
spoken about that point i would like to hear from you. One of the most
endearing qualities of Fuller to me is his interest in so many fields and
his ability to get people of differences to work synergetically. His
books are not lumped in one section of the library, he behaved that way
also -generalist not specialist.
In Critical Path he feels very strongly about Chief Seattle's famous
environmental speech and i feel he would see the proactive spirit and
challenge in Oren Lyons work as well. There are more than enough jobs to
not lose any and it can take place with the same intelligent work teams
if there are the leaders who have the vision and desire. We must first
decide what is a humane environment and then behave humanely, which is a
near quote of George Nelson in one of his wonderfully written book GEORGE
NELSON ON DESIGN (out of print). Nelson "trained as an architect" said
he, did little architecture but many other design related activities and
worked with Fuller and gave him workspace. Fuller set out to change the
environment not to change people, but make the environment work better so
people could make the correct paradigm shifts. One of my last postings
was about Ludwig von Bertanlffy and general systems theory, something
Bucky inherited from stardust intuitively. If we can make the paradigm
shifts in the leadership positions much of the intellect and tooling is
outhere if i may. And although i understand that Marshall McLuhan's read
of the media rub (message) on us has made killingry or weaponary boring
unless it
is in our backyard to a large degree, it is still inhumane in any yard.
And i feel there may be a job gain instead of job loses. Information age
and cross linking what and why, information to be of much value must
manifest itself through us into something for something. And it must be
valued EQUALLY to level the living standard in a unique way, with new
value standards, without "navel gazing"--we must look up at least once in
a while. Cleaning the water is not optional, it is our lifeblood said
Leonardo and we are still using Leonardo's and the dinosaurs water and
only through Natures Laws is it serving us, our systems need
improving(the work, begins). UTOPIA or OBLIVION: the prospects for
humanity, by R.B. Fuller, 1969. I just found a copy, who wants it?
-----write me direct.
james, kirby, Ed,those of you i am corresponding with individually,
All the rest and welcome to you new subscribers-------a week or so ago
there were 193 subscribers on the list. what we can do together to get
up and do what needs to be done is what Bucky is about--to do the work.
good night to some, good morning to others , good day to some,
good everything to All., john--i want to share the book, read it
sign it and return it. what we can do together is more than we
can do apart.
John Belt
i know, but i can't sleep due to thinking about this anyway. and
this relates to the just moments ago posting, but can stand alone. this
is the last passage of "What I Am Trying to Do" in this case taken from
AND IT CAME TO PASS-NOT TO STAY, by R. Buckminster Fuller, 1976
last passage of:
"What I Am Trying To Do"
All of the foregoing will release
Our minds to perform their unique
Universe searching
Inventing capabilities
And information conserving
In support of which functioning
We humans alone
Amongst all known organisms
Were given conscious intellectual access
To the family of exclusively mathematically stateable
Metaphysical principles
Ever demonstrably governing
The cosmic integrity
Of eternal regeneration
And because the meaning of design
Is that all the parts are interconsiderately arranged
In respect to one another
And because all the generalized principles
Are omni-interaccommodative
Which is to say
That none ever contradict any others
The family of thus far scientifically discovered
Generalized principles constitutes a cosmic design
To which human mind has
The only known access
Other than that
Of the comprehensive
Absolutely mysterious
Intellectual integrity context
Of Universe itself.
r. b. fuller
--------------------------------------------------------------
dear energy event in Universe, good everything, humane of course.
john belt
bcu-066
hi-
due to so many text i red, it seem that the brain is going in
multidirection
without focouse. i think that acceleration of events way outstrip
the way instiution deal with it; and we also dont know what to do
next. we project very far in future, well, may be that premise
is false inhereted from Fuller.
the text of Fuller for those-like me- in love with his ideas, sits
on the cortext as nonnegotioable- from being overwhelming may be.
intution related to the middel pre-frontal(between the eye sockets)
lobe- sighn that it is working for refrence New scients , march issue.
is the body scarcely dicernible sweating reaction induced by dangerous
situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no one have attepted to think synergetic, we must make experiments.
i have 4 articles:about 8 page form New scientest.
i put them in order for synerge 1. intution 1/2 page
2. balestic as the inducer for
languge formation
3. war and ecology
4. alloys of metals that dont mix
5. plastic.
this can be breakfast reading for the smart ones not me.
this is just and experiment.
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can one summarize the world game stratagy, i mean actualy as it is
in the soft ware. i am quite certain it needs improvement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
frequently reacuuring subjects; Fuller must be viewed from a distance
so we can do our own thinking, how to frontlobe him out and use
him discontinously.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
in blasetic action there the brain makes a model, while the arival of
neurons
which evokes a thought can not handle throwing of a missle.
therefor the action of the blestic is under-consiouness.
synergetic study must have some of that feeling of intution,
which i lack. well, there realy must be speed and acceleration
in thinking , clarifying. i think fuller thinking can also be
impedment to think farther stay preciptated in the sub-containering
of our mind. our erro, is that we dont know our erro.
------------------------------------------------------
i alredy got a home page to use as the accelerated University.
i dont knwo(mango dont know) how to eddit and staff- though soon. i need
articls
to connect to: i have requirment to this pages that they must
be of the most significant data for reorination of our endvour
to adapt to the future of earth. no tedious lenghty acadimic
waste of words. i have more to say about this.
but her is an idea i came with: the articles must have a varity
of lenghts. it can be 5 lines up to 20 pages; i will be listing
the lines with the blue the title of the article.
5 lines about the sun
10 lines about waste in Boston
15 for internationl city desgin
and so forth.
a reader choses what to go to in his breakfast, or evening
information harvesting, but know befor hand how long it is,
bingo.
there might be volving in the brain that will reoreint the
information to tringulate it so that it compact like
the chains of an alloy- compaset barin packaging. i hope
to find these area of undiscovered learning skills.
these condensation of multisubject to their extrems minimum
energy matphysics.
------------------------------------------------------------------
the slow manner that scientest and who ever comes to the T.V screen
to explain is to slow- it binges on irralvancy. this linearity
of going on and one about seprate problems is exhosting to
socity and creats more dissymetry. indication of specialization
to the brink of disaster.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
we must connect to very informed people about certain subjecet
the way fuller did and get informed by them sum totaly.
by asking them the relvant question. one subject i have
in mind is logistic- which i think if you dont know anything
about you can hardly talk about planet earth.
end.
tagdi
Kirby Urner
> Frequent Flyer Miles are just the advance guard of a whole host
> of funny-money inventions we will be seeing much more of,
> diverting the value flux into more and more channels that are
> less and less visible.
This observation shared by Al Gilman is on target and suggests
how distance education circuits might globally disperse
inventory, by channeling not so much 'cold cash' (highly
liquid) but other courseware redeemables, either identity-
imprinted (non-transferrable) or tradable (like most store
coupons).
These new 'courseware currencies' will not all be valued
equally (some will take on 'funny money' or 'mickey mouse'
attributes) as no one source is behind them all. Schools
of thought (invisible colleges) will compete for students
and kudos, in the future as now, and the quality of courseware
compensation will be critical to keeping a distance education
enterprise afloat. Paper securities likewise suffer from the
'funny money' syndrome, don't forget -- museums are cram
packed with examples of worthless scraps, once 'to die for'
tradables.
As the distinction between 'learning' and 'earning' a living
blurs (as has already happened in academia), with 'home
offices' and 'home schools' converging, we'll have a more
workable infrastructure for rebalancing income distribution
among families, a new 'global university' context wherein the
'world hunger' problem becomes one of providing adequate 'food
services' to a starving student body.
Pushing this new economy into remote regions signalling their
eagerness to 'get wired' (with emphasis on serving and
preserving local culture), will itself be part of the workload
facing globally circuiting students and faculty, with our
deployable inventory including community centers, info pods,
solar concentrators, and other 'campus modules' designed for
easy transport and assembly.
This design science push is more focussed on curriculum than
politics, as the place to address key conceptual weaknesses and
other barriers to fulfilling the above vision to a greater
degree.
For example our 'economics' could use some bolstering, ala Dr.
Daly's shrewd analyses both in 'Beyond Growth' and generously
shared with us via this list.
I am likewise encouraged by the high level of systems awareness
(thermodynamics, solar energy systems at various scales)
evidenced by so many posters to this list. Economics is
converging with a broader range of scientific disciplines,
I think in the nick of time.
Very encouraging. I'm looking forward to the remainder of this
most productive discussion.
Kirby
Curriculum Writer
4D Solutions
----------------------------------------------------
Kirby Urner
Attached below is my post, placed near the top of an
ongoing discussion of 'Beyond Growth' by Dr. Daly,
economist, with links.
Update: Ken Brown's MENSA newsletter will be including
my 'Intro to General Systems Theory' next issue, having
already featured 'Brainstorming New Circuit Designs for
Motherboard Earth' (both essays at my website).
Kirby
founding member
of DENSA
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DENSA:
Dummies
Engaged in
Nurturing our
Sense-making
Abilities
Teaching humility in an age which prizes smarts.
"Because no matter smart you are,
by god you're still a dummy"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------
RE: LIMITS TO GROWTH by Dr. Herman E. Daly
I much enjoyed the book, lent to me by Econ prof John Wish
(his positive review of Beyond Growth is published to the
web at http://csf.Colorado.EDU/ISEE/daly/wish.html).
This may be my only post, given the 800+ roster and time-energy
constraints on any one individual (in this case Dr. Daly), but
I'd be happy to network with others in the margins. I'll keep
it short, provide some links, and sit back to watch the rest of
the discussion unfold. Much looking forward to reading all of
your posts re this significant and clearly written contribution
to the ongoing, global conversation.
As Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan (wife and son of the late
Carl Sagan) point out, organic life aboard spaceship earth is
riding an energy curve supplied by solar fusion. Organic life
is helping to dissipate our star's heat out into space [1].
Thermodynamically speaking therefore, Earth is very far from
being a closed system. I agree with Dr. Daly that future economics
text books will need to do a better job of diagramming the sun
within their various ecosystem flow charts (example provided)[2].
'Limits to Growth' in terms of 'numbers of humans', 'size of
cities' and so forth? Sure! We face many practical constraints
and technology is about acknowledging and learning to live within
these constraints, not always about 'overcoming' nature's designs
in the erroneous and arrogant belief that humans can always 'fix'
what ain't broken in the first place.
We can expect to continue ephemeralizing [3] (Arnold Toynbee:
'etherealizing') our use of physical inputs, raising living
standards by doing 'more with less' over less well-designed
approaches involving doing 'more with more' (or even 'less
with more' when being super-inefficient, as in much of the
USA today).
Limits to energy input? Only in terms of:
(a) our per diem solar income terawattage and its
(b) practical harvestability within our human-designed
circuitry (fossil fuels and agriculture being example
prime solar energy derivatives, each surrounded by
their own energy harvesting and extraction economies)
and
(c) the sun's eventual growth curve [4] -- expected to
eventually go 'dwarf', engulfing Earth during a 'giant'
phase enroute. By that time, humans may or may not
have figured out how to propagate their intelligence
to other star systems.
In the meantime, my 4D Solutions is busy networking with affiliates
for
(a) higher living standards for all including
(b) eliminating death by starvation quickly, and a
(c) sustainable set of population curves for the full
complement of species (new ones always welcome to
apply).
Thanks. Always on the lookout for more contacts and
partners, in curriculum writing especially. Feel free
to drop me a line (pd...@teleport.com).
Kirby
-----
Kirby Urner is a curriculum writer for 4D Solutions and
practitioner of the 'synergetic arts' (akin to 'liberal arts'
-- old meaning) as conveyed by the Fuller School. He's
received training from Princeton University, including the
Woodrow Wilson School of Public Affairs, the Centers Network,
and these days gets direction from his varied roster of
clients in the GO-NGO world (government and nonprofit sectors).
More bio at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
More writings: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ku_gall.html
Economics overview: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst2.html
Notes:
[1] http://www.bio.umass.edu/faculty/biog/margulis.html
[2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst3.html
[3] 'Ephemeralization' (more w/ less) -- R. Buckminster Fuller
[4] http://www.oxford.net/~crdreyer/stars/death.html
----------------------------------------------------
Skip Kindler
Menu user
two boxes- two files: operative here a new solution bingo in one file.
here just futuristing bingo another file.
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i was thinking if we could make a servey with people who driving
cars to ask them what they are going in a particular time.
also, we can takle problems right ahead. it is a disaster
that since Fulle said it about wasting the gallons long ago.
nothing been doen. you see there is something rong with
the way we collect information- seems to delay us.
why becuse there is missing pieces. not because we know
what we doing. i dont know what the answer, but we should
find very quick answer to it.
----------------------------------------------------
list of things humans dont need to do.
but only if there is change in the mechanizm of operation.
dont need to use the telphone for unecessary things and
irralvance.
instiution dont need to use paper for regulation.
discard all the midlmen, get things doen directly- like in
logistics.
school infrastructe is possibly one that can be discarded if
the computer come of age.
can you list useless things we should discard.
tagdi
Kirby Urner
> can you list useless things we should discard.
>
> tagdi
I can, but the list would be useless.
Kirby
----------------------------------------------------