<If we're going into mediation/due process, the kid has already lost. It gets <so sticky! Our district is GREAT! My battles have been far and few between. < But some of the families I have accompanied to meetings have "suffered" <greatly, as have their children, not only because of lack of services, but <more often because of attitude. It's really sad.
i just would like to add my 2 cents here...we all agree that sometimes districts are great and sometimes they are not.
my interpretation was that parents need to sometimes go that extra mile for their kids and buck the system. yes, it takes emotional and sometimes financial means, but sometimes parents are willing to stop when they first are denied a service for their child.
not all parents even consider due process or mediation. not all parents even think to sit down and send a letter to further support their case. sometimes its lack of effort, sometimes its lack of skill or expertise, etc.
attitude also plays a part. being professional at a meeting when your child's education or services is on the line is not always easy or something that every parent feels up to.
however, i feel by going that extra mile, our kids surely will lose out. this doesn't mean that i judge parents for choosing not to pursue services, etc. for their child, but i would rather not listen to them complain that they could not get what their child needed if they have chosen not to make the attempt to get those services.
i agree there comes a time when a parent might have to concede for a multitude of reasons, but i also know that there are many parents who don't even attempt the battle.
I have yet to have someone tell me or cindy, no at an iep meeting,
If you know the laws and how they pertain to your childs rights, there is no reason for you not to get what you want.
Sure they may frown and try to buck the system and get around it but the bottom line is, if it is your childs right then so be it.
I for one will go to battle for anyones child for services, and I do Win.
when Mattie was still in Early Intervention, his program did not have one of his required services available in the county.
I told them that is not my problem, this service is in his IFSP, and you will provide it. The closest provider was some 4 hours away. I told them they will provide for Mattie to attend, they will pay mileage and all expenses to take him. Including time off work for me or Cindy etc etc.....And they had absolutely no recourse but to provide what I had demanded.
so what Im trying to say is stand firm, read up and know your rights, they are on your side not the administrations. (Or as I call them Management, lololol). dont let them bully or tell you this isnt available or that costs too much money. If you want it stand firm put it in your IEP or IFSP. and then when they say, a week later we cant provide this, you say yes you will it is written on this little piece of paper, (IEP,IFSP).
Oh yea, having a few years of Union Rep experience is a big plus.
Wednesday, September 08, 1999, 10:04:41 AM, you wrote:
Sandra J. Dodd> <If we're going into mediation/due process, the kid has already lost. It gets Sandra J. Dodd> <so sticky! Our district is GREAT! My battles have been far and few between. Sandra J. Dodd> < But some of the families I have accompanied to meetings have "suffered" Sandra J. Dodd> <greatly, as have their children, not only because of lack of services, but Sandra J. Dodd> <more often because of attitude. It's really sad.
Sandra J. Dodd> i just would like to add my 2 cents here...we all agree that sometimes districts Sandra J. Dodd> are great and sometimes they are not.
Sandra J. Dodd> my interpretation was that parents need to sometimes go that extra mile for Sandra J. Dodd> their kids and buck the system. yes, it takes emotional Sandra J. Dodd> and sometimes financial means, but sometimes parents are willing to stop when Sandra J. Dodd> they first are denied a service for their child.
Sandra J. Dodd> not all parents even consider due process or mediation. not all parents even Sandra J. Dodd> think to sit down and send a letter to further support Sandra J. Dodd> their case. sometimes its lack of effort, sometimes its lack of skill or Sandra J. Dodd> expertise, etc.
Sandra J. Dodd> attitude also plays a part. being professional at a meeting when your child's Sandra J. Dodd> education or services is on the line is not always Sandra J. Dodd> easy or something that every parent feels up to.
Sandra J. Dodd> however, i feel by going that extra mile, our kids surely will lose out. this Sandra J. Dodd> doesn't mean that i judge parents for choosing not to pursue Sandra J. Dodd> services, etc. for their child, but i would rather not listen to them complain Sandra J. Dodd> that they could not get what their child needed if they have chosen Sandra J. Dodd> not to make the attempt to get those services.
Sandra J. Dodd> i agree there comes a time when a parent might have to concede for a multitude Sandra J. Dodd> of reasons, but i also know that there are many Sandra J. Dodd> parents who don't even attempt the battle.
Sandra J. Dodd> hope this makes some sense!
Sandra J. Dodd> sandy Sandra J. Dodd> mom to erick (4, ds) and his 2 big sisters
In a message dated 9/8/99 7:25:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@NATCA.NET writes:
<< so what Im trying to say is stand firm, read up and know your rights, they are on your side not the administrations. (Or as I call them Management, lololol). dont let them bully or tell you this isnt available or that costs too much money. If you want it stand firm put it in your IEP or IFSP. and then when they say, a week later we cant provide this, you say yes you will it is written on this little piece of paper, (IEP,IFSP). >>
Wednesday, September 08, 1999, 3:36:47 PM, you wrote:
Toni Slowinski> Whoa!! Timm and I agree! LOL!!
Toni Slowinski> Toni
Toni Slowinski> In a message dated 9/8/99 7:25:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@NATCA.NET
Toni Slowinski> writes:
Toni Slowinski> << so what Im trying to say is stand firm, read up and know your rights, Toni Slowinski> they are on your side not the administrations. (Or as I call them Toni Slowinski> Management, lololol). dont let them bully or tell you this isnt Toni Slowinski> available or that costs too much money. If you want it stand firm put Toni Slowinski> it in your IEP or IFSP. and then when they say, a week later we cant Toni Slowinski> provide this, you say yes you will it is written on this little piece Toni Slowinski> of paper, (IEP,IFSP). Toni Slowinski> >>
Hi Timm, What you say is great BUT there are policies (state and federal) in effect that can keep your child from receiving a certain service, support etc.... Methodology's is one example that is not cut and dry in IDEA, also interpretation of the Law can be decided by a Judge, not always in our favor sadly.
When I fight, it is too win. I have learned to know my opponent and how they play the game, sometimes Ill lose a battle but win the war :)
Kathy mom to Sara 7.....I pick my battles heehee or make them think it's their idea for a certain service, support etc....
>I have yet to have someone tell me or cindy, no at an iep meeting,
>If you know the laws and how they pertain to your childs rights, there >is no reason for you not to get what you want.
>Sure they may frown and try to buck the system and get around it but >the bottom line is, if it is your childs right then so be it.
hi timm, you're preaching to the choir here (i think you messed up who said what in your reply...) but i'll share a little story about my past IEP meeting...
erick's case manager, who was actually the school psychologist, was quite a woman! we refer to her as nurse ratched...from one flew over the cuckoo's nest...get the picture?
anyway, we sat at our IEP meeting, went over the services erick was currently getting (mind you, she had not yet laid eyes on erick, ever) and she asked me where he was getting his OT services and who was providing them. on the ball, eh? of course, the district was paying for them. erick is placed out of district (her first bone of contention) and he was receiving services from the OT while he was in daycare, not in school. she was clueless.
ok, we got past that issue. then i presented detailed reports of the need for oral motor therapy for erick. she hemmed and hawed and stammered, and said that erick as already getting these servics. wrong again! then she said that they were not educationally relevant. wrong! then she said that she would have to discuss it with her director - big no no!
bottom line, tho, is we were not in agreement at the meeting, no IEP was signed, and she, who should have been the one making the decisions on this, was in no position to do so. of course, this led to further discussion, including mediation, etc. and finally the dismissal of this case manager.
within a few weeks of this meeting, i had approval not only for a 30-minute session, but a 45-minute session - and approval for the sessions to be year round...plus, they are going to do makeup sessions for the time lost from date of IEP meeting till they approved it...they just don't know that part yet...
so, she definitely told me no at the meeting, i definitely knew the laws, and i definitely now have the services my son needs...
maybe toni is not the only one who rides on a broom... ; o )
In a message dated 9/8/99 7:25:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@NATCA.NET writes: If you know the laws and how they pertain to your childs rights, there is no reason for you not to get what you want. >>
Actually, Tim, this is not true. Come down to the PTI office and take a look at the due process suits where the parent fought based on the "law" and lost. It is really the hearing officers/judge decision as to whether he or she thinks the service is "appropriate" enough.
I was reading a case law yesterday where a mom fought all the way for the yellow sped bus to pick her child up, who was in a wheelchair. Well, the school sent out a contracted bus, which had no lift in it, no restraints, no a/c, and no communication system on it. The parent had a letter from the doctor that because of seizures the child needed to be on a bus with a communication device, even a hand-held radio. DP said no. Happens every day!
I really encourage parents to know the federal and state regs as well as IDEA and their individual district's policy. I also suggest that a parent take them to the meeting and that if the parent is told something can't be done due to local policy, then ask for a copy!
The bottom line for parents is if the school refuses to provide a service or to make good on the signed IEP, does the parent want to go to mediation or due process? In most of VA you would be hard pressed to find an attorney to go out to these small counties.
I think it is always encouraging to read about a parent who has had victories though! Rejoice! Amie
It is attitudes such as this that let School Administrations get away with murder.
The Law is the Law, IDEA is a Binding contract per say. School Systems may not evoke policies that take away from what the rights that IDEA provides.
You may say they do, however they will lose all federal funding if they do not follow IDEA to the letter. Mediation and Due Process is not a big deal. And most School Systems, will immediately follow the guidelines once they are threatened to lose federal monies. this is their Bread and butter.
I would actually enjoy the opportunity to meet with a Hard Headed School Superintendent, with my Tape Recorder and have him tell me why it is they cant provide what the Law says they must. Once they are backed up against the wall, with threats to their funding, it is amazing how soon they change their attitude.
and I do appreciate your tons of due Processes you have, however I do know that most are due to ill informed parents not knowing the Law in the first place. and as far as Attorneys, I am my son's best and Foremost attorney
Thursday, September 09, 1999, 4:31:38 AM, you wrote:
Amie Bell> In a message dated 9/8/99 7:25:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@NATCA.NET
Amie Bell> writes:
Amie Bell> If you know the laws and how they pertain to your childs rights, there Amie Bell> is no reason for you not to get what you want. >>
Amie Bell> Actually, Tim, this is not true. Come down to the PTI office and take a look Amie Bell> at the due process suits where the parent fought based on the "law" and lost. Amie Bell> It is really the hearing officers/judge decision as to whether he or she Amie Bell> thinks the service is "appropriate" enough.
Amie Bell> I was reading a case law yesterday where a mom fought all the way for the Amie Bell> yellow sped bus to pick her child up, who was in a wheelchair. Well, the Amie Bell> school sent out a contracted bus, which had no lift in it, no restraints, no Amie Bell> a/c, and no communication system on it. The parent had a letter from the Amie Bell> doctor that because of seizures the child needed to be on a bus with a Amie Bell> communication device, even a hand-held radio. DP said no. Happens every day!
Amie Bell> I really encourage parents to know the federal and state regs as well as IDEA Amie Bell> and their individual district's policy. I also suggest that a parent take Amie Bell> them to the meeting and that if the parent is told something can't be done Amie Bell> due to local policy, then ask for a copy!
Amie Bell> The bottom line for parents is if the school refuses to provide a service or Amie Bell> to make good on the signed IEP, does the parent want to go to mediation or Amie Bell> due process? In most of VA you would be hard pressed to find an attorney to Amie Bell> go out to these small counties.
Amie Bell> I think it is always encouraging to read about a parent who has had victories Amie Bell> though! Amie Bell> Rejoice! Amie Bell> Amie
In a message dated 9/9/99 9:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@natca.net writes: Actually Amy you are wrong. It is attitudes such as this that let School Administrations get away with murder. >> Tim, It is interesting to note that IDEA, which came 25 years after the previous 142 law, had very FEW changes, yet in 25 yrs the msg did not get across. Have their been gains? Yes, tremendous ones!
If I am wrong, then why on earth do we see so many postings on the DS web site every day? Why are there so many advocacy groups and last but not least exactly why are we paying taxes to fund advocacy organizations in every state?
There are lots of stratergies parents can use to get the goals and objectives and placements they need for their child, because the law is not enough. Then there are those places where the school district has the money to go to DP so they don't mind.
Timm, exactly which school districts have had their funding, bread and butter, taken away from them for not adhering to IDEA? I would be interested in finding that out as I have never seen that information. The law says that will happen, but it also says our kids have full inclusion and related services.
Here in VA, there are so many small counties that even though the law does provide for home schooling by sped teachers, they are teaching during the day and cant provide the schooling till night-time, not acceptable to a parent but what choice do they have? Oh, they can sue, but will that bring a teacher to a small town? I don't think so. One parent informed the school in writing with reminders for 5 yrs that her child would need a sign language teacher or an interperter when she started school and lo and behold, school has started without one. The county has done its share of offering BIG bucks and advertising over the years, even offering to pay someone to go to the nearest college for classes, but it seems no one wants to go to this small town on the edge of VA. How does IDEA work in this case?
As for my attitude, no, I don't encourage any parent to let the school get away with murder but when all else fails it is up to that family to decide whether they have the financial wherewithal to take the district to court. In our neighboring district, Arlington, a family has been at it for 5, YES, FIVE yrs to get full inclusion for their child at a cost to the taxpayers of millions of dollars, yet look who is winning, not the child. The school district! Funny, how that IDEA works!
If anyone would like to continue this discussion on a "reality" basis, I would love to! I love to hear how parents were able to get the services their child needs without having to sue, especially in a district like Deborah is in, in which they do NOT allow tape recorders and yes, can call the police if you refuse to turn it off or leave. In this case, the IEP goes on without the parent there. Rejoice! Amie
Amy, I agree with you. I am located in KY and we just had THE WORST IEP meeting we have ever had. I call it the IEP meeting from hell!!! My son is starting in high school and I was told at the end of his 8th grade year by the teacher he has now in high school (special ed teacher) that I needed to think about what I wanted for Jackie in high school because "we don't do inclusion or collaboration like the middle school does, if you want him in regular classes then he will go in there and if he fails he fails." This is the same attitude I and battling against right now to keep him in regular biology and I am the one trying to show them how to modify the work for him. It's just one battle after another. Deborah mom to Jackie 15(DS)
See this is exactly the attitude that I see all the time on here.
Its the you can't beat the establishment, crap.
That's nonsense, what really bothers me is these so called self proclaimed advocates that are going around telling parents, "oh it may be better just to give up rather than fight".
What kind of Advocate is that?
I did not say that School districts have had their funding removed, what I said was when their actions pose this threat of losing funding, most if not all will find a way to provide the services you want.
advocates must stop playing into the Districts hands by allowing the often used excuse of "we don't have funding for that". This is a down and out Lie, districts federal monies which are allocated under IDEA, are allocated based on the amount services they provide.
and yes Amy I did have a Service Organization Threatened by the state, a large on at that, one in which serves a very large area in West virginia,to lose their Early Intervention Funding if they did not provide a service to Matthew. It is amazing how quick these School Districts and Service Organizations will give in to parents demands, when a parent asks to see a report of all Special Ed monies received and how they were distributed.
You must know the steps to take and the action to take in order to call the Districts bluff and Lay all the Cards on the Table.
there are alot more ways than just using IDEA in order to get what you want for your child.
Thursday, September 09, 1999, 5:42:57 AM, you wrote:
Amie Bell> In a message dated 9/9/99 9:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ti...@natca.net
Amie Bell> writes:
Amie Bell> Actually Amy you are wrong. It is attitudes such as this that let School Amie Bell> Administrations get away with murder. Amie Bell> >> Amie Bell> Tim, Amie Bell> It is interesting to note that IDEA, which came 25 years after the previous Amie Bell> 142 law, had very FEW changes, yet in 25 yrs the msg did not get across. Have Amie Bell> their been gains? Yes, tremendous ones!
Amie Bell> If I am wrong, then why on earth do we see so many postings on the DS web Amie Bell> site every day? Why are there so many advocacy groups and last but not least Amie Bell> exactly why are we paying taxes to fund advocacy organizations in every Amie Bell> state?
Amie Bell> There are lots of stratergies parents can use to get the goals and objectives Amie Bell> and placements they need for their child, because the law is not enough. Then Amie Bell> there are those places where the school district has the money to go to DP so Amie Bell> they don't mind.
Amie Bell> Timm, exactly which school districts have had their funding, bread and Amie Bell> butter, taken away from them for not adhering to IDEA? I would be interested Amie Bell> in finding that out as I have never seen that information. The law says that Amie Bell> will happen, but it also says our kids have full inclusion and related Amie Bell> services.
Amie Bell> Here in VA, there are so many small counties that even though the law does Amie Bell> provide for home schooling by sped teachers, they are teaching during the day Amie Bell> and cant provide the schooling till night-time, not acceptable to a parent Amie Bell> but what choice do they have? Oh, they can sue, but will that bring a teacher Amie Bell> to a small town? I don't think so. One parent informed the school in writing Amie Bell> with reminders for 5 yrs that her child would need a sign language teacher or Amie Bell> an interperter when she started school and lo and behold, school has started Amie Bell> without one. The county has done its share of offering BIG bucks and Amie Bell> advertising over the years, even offering to pay someone to go to the nearest Amie Bell> college for classes, but it seems no one wants to go to this small town on Amie Bell> the edge of VA. How does IDEA work in this case?
Amie Bell> As for my attitude, no, I don't encourage any parent to let the school get Amie Bell> away with murder but when all else fails it is up to that family to decide Amie Bell> whether they have the financial wherewithal to take the district to court. In Amie Bell> our neighboring district, Arlington, a family has been at it for 5, YES, FIVE Amie Bell> yrs to get full inclusion for their child at a cost to the taxpayers of Amie Bell> millions of dollars, yet look who is winning, not the child. The school Amie Bell> district! Funny, how that IDEA works!
Amie Bell> If anyone would like to continue this discussion on a "reality" basis, I Amie Bell> would love to! I love to hear how parents were able to get the services their Amie Bell> child needs without having to sue, especially in a district like Deborah is Amie Bell> in, in which they do NOT allow tape recorders and yes, can call the police if Amie Bell> you refuse to turn it off or leave. In this case, the IEP goes on without the Amie Bell> parent there. Amie Bell> Rejoice! Amie Bell> Amie
>The bottom line for parents is if the school refuses to provide a service or >to make good on the signed IEP, does the parent want to go to mediation or >due process?
I think obviously that every state is different. I went to mediation my first time out and found it to be no problem - we won, in fact. Now, I am no pro at this, as my son started preschool today, but I don't think that going to mediation has to be something to dread. On the other hand, Aidan has a classmate with PDD. His parents have had to fight so hard for his services, and services for their older son with ADHD that they are totally burned out and bitter, and ready to move away. It's a really sad state, and a hell of a way to do business. Valle, mother of Timmy, 6, and Aidan, 3 (ds)
>There are lots of stratergies parents can use to get the goals and objectives >and placements they need for their child, because the law is not enough.
Heehee So true Amy, like I said earlier you have to know how to play the game and to know HOW to write a Goal to get the services or supports needed. It is the implementing of the Goals, that the schools look at. I carefully before any meeting write and rewrite goals and objectives with the help of some great people online :)
I wanted Sara to have the Edmark Sight reading program and a computer available at all times to her, well we wrote up a goal (Sara will blah blah blah on the computer) and the school provided it under equipment.
You can tell a school till your blue in the face your child needs an aide but you must also write it up so that one needs it for a goal or objective like: Sara will write her name with "assistance", Sara will stay on task with "redirection" the words in quotation marks spell assistant heehee
>If anyone would like to continue this discussion on a "reality" basis, I >would love to! I love to hear how parents were able to get the services their >child needs without having to sue, especially in a district like Deborah is >in
I love the IDEA and it really serves its purpose but you cannot expect to get everything your child needs with a poor wrote IEP Also learn how to write an IEP. Every year at these meetings I learn more and more LOL hopefully (full of hope) I will get the art of writing these IEP's down pat :)
Kathy mom to Sara 7......hates game playing but loves to win :) sorry if my examples are weak heehee I'm in a hurry
timm wrote: > and yes Amy I did have a Service Organization Threatened by the > state, a large on at that, one in which serves a very large area in > West virginia,to lose their Early Intervention Funding if they did not provide a > service to Matthew.
But that was Part C. Part C is administered differently. The service organization was getting funding from the state Part C lead agency (the state agency which receives the federal grant money), which is West Virginia is the Department of Health. It is entirely possible that an administrative complaint up the ladder to the state Part C office would result in a call reminding the service provider that they must comply or lose their funding.
Thursday, September 09, 1999, 12:20:11 PM, you wrote:
Mary Wilt> timm wrote: >> and yes Amy I did have a Service Organization Threatened by the >> state, a large on at that, one in which serves a very large area in >> West virginia,to lose their Early Intervention Funding if they did not provide a >> service to Matthew.
Mary Wilt> But that was Part C. Part C is administered differently. The service Mary Wilt> organization was getting funding from the state Part C lead agency (the Mary Wilt> state agency which receives the federal grant money), which is West Mary Wilt> Virginia is the Department of Health. It is entirely possible that an Mary Wilt> administrative complaint up the ladder to the state Part C office would Mary Wilt> result in a call reminding the service provider that they must comply or Mary Wilt> lose their funding.
timm wrote: > the only diference between part b and part c, (was part h) is who manages the > federal money and how it is distributed.
> the basic principle is the same.
no, sorry. Part B guarantees FAPE. Part C does not. Not the same thing. Even the procedural safeguards are different. An IFSP is not an IEP. I agree the basic intent of both parts is that children with disabilities receive appropriate services, though.
Thursday, September 09, 1999, 1:00:40 PM, you wrote:
Mary Wilt> timm wrote: >> the only diference between part b and part c, (was part h) is who manages the >> federal money and how it is distributed.
>> the basic principle is the same.
Mary Wilt> no, sorry. Part B guarantees FAPE. Part C does not. Not the same thing. Mary Wilt> Even the procedural safeguards are different. An IFSP is not an IEP. I Mary Wilt> agree the basic intent of both parts is that children with disabilities Mary Wilt> receive appropriate services, though.
Whoa Timbo!!!! That's my good friend Mary you're talking to!! Be nice now, or I won't cook nice dinners for you when you visit!! I'll make you sit with Muggsie while I give all the food to Cindy and the kids. Donna
>Whoa Timbo!!!! That's my good friend Mary you're talking to!! Be nice now, >or I won't cook nice dinners for you when you visit!! I'll make you sit with >Muggsie while I give all the food to Cindy and the kids. >Donna
In a message dated 9/9/99 5:32:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AmieB...@AOL.COM writes:
<< In most of VA you would be hard pressed to find an attorney to go out to these small counties. >>
It is also difficult, in most areas, to find attorneys who specialize, or have any knowledge, of educational issues. Just an unfortunate fact, but even attorneys who specialize in guardianship issues or volunteer time at your local ARC are not guaranteed to have knowledge in the arena of disability education. One mom I know was so frustrated (her husband was an attorney and they were getting no where for their own son) -- she went to lawschool herself so she could become an advocate for disabled children and "change the world." Last I heard she was concentrating on business law & divorce in her practice so she could make some money :-(
>Wait a minute -- I'm reading this on 9/9/99 -- Did my computer >malfunction?!?!?!? :-)
>LOL
>Tami H.
So funny Tami lol My 10 yr old came home yesterday from school and told me that I can't turn on the computor tomorrow (today), she said it would BLOW up, heehee I guess she meant crash. Some kid told her this so I just laughed it off.
Well late last night in the wee hours I was watching a replay of the news, working on the computer at the same time, they broadcasted that some folks might have major computer problems tomorrow (today) because of the date 9-9-99 I was thinking Oh my Kaite was right and then looked at the clock which read 1:30am I chuckled again whew it didn't happen to me.
Kathy mom to Sara 7.....I'll listen to my kids more often lol and watch the news on time Kathy mom to Sara (7,ds)
