To help or not to help, that is the question
Deffman
In the "Chokeleer Implant" thread, Stephen White wrote:
>I went to school with them and I corrected their assignments before
>they handed them in so they could get better marks for their work and
>also so that they could see what I had changed and why.
Hey, this is something I've done countless times with mixed feelings.
A deaf relative asks me to help with her English so that she can write a
very clear letter to a beloved family member. I do so, and I feel great.
At Gallaudet, a deaf student asks me for advice on how to properly word a
sentence he's using in a term paper. I gladly help, and don't think
anything of it.
The following week, the same student stops by my room, drops off a
five-page paper, and asks me to edit for mistakes. Its kind of a pain in
the neck, but being an old softie who cant say no, I do it. Soon, this
gets to be a habit. My gut reaction is "hey, you have to make the effort
to learn English." Yet this guy is also a good friend of mine, and he's
helped me in other ways countless times. So every now and then, I serve as
his personal editor. My then-fiancee' (and now official ball and chain)
hollers at me for being such a sucker.
Years later, at work, a deaf colleague is struggling with his writing. He
brings me notes which he needs to send home to parents, and asks me to
revise them. I do it, but... as with the other guy, the old "give 'em an
inch and they take a mile" adage becomes true. Next thing you know, he's
asking me to rewrite IEP's. This time I decline, and he backs off anyway
when he sees that I have my own pile of paperwork to do. So I'm off the
hook, yet I feel guilty. Big mixed emotions here. This guy is an
*excellent* teacher in all other aspects... kids absolutely love him, and
they *understand* him. When I look at another teacher (hearing) who can't
sign, I can very clearly see the big impact that the deaf guy has. He's
valuable... but he needs to learn how to write.
Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I feel
theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
Opinions, anyone?
Kelby Nathan Brick
>In the "Chokeleer Implant" thread, Stephen White wrote:
>
>>I went to school with them and I corrected their assignments before
>>they handed them in so they could get better marks for their work and
>>also so that they could see what I had changed and why.
>
So what. It is not because they are deaf, but because you have better
English than them.
I have done the above with BOTH deaf and hearing people. There are MANY
intelligent hearing college graduates out there who still need a lot of
corrections in their writings.
To pick on the deaf in this area is unfair because the exactly same thing
happens with hearing people too.
Wilona1
In article <53a90d$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, def...@aol.com (Deffman)
writes:
>Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
>when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
>those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I
feel
>theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
>need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
>dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
>
>
Why not turn it into a source of income??? I'm deaf myself, and one of my
former pastors still asks me to proofread, edit, etc. his seminary papers
... this is a hearing man whose wife is a teacher/counselor working with
learning disabled (hearing) kids. I have a home business offering various
business services and charge (by the hour) for this kind of work. He is
happy to pay me for my work, and his papers have all gotten A or better so
far. Another friend (deaf) has already decided to use my services.
The quality or amount of editing I do is different for these two
individuals. The hearing customer gets the most editing/correction
suggestions, but the deaf customer - at her request - gets only what
editing/correcting is absolutely needed to make her papers understandable
to her hearing teachers.
If your help is valuable enough to your friends, they might be willing to
pay something in return for your work. If not, they may stop asking you -
and you'll feel less burdened.
Martha E. Knowles ***** Wil...@aol.com
Gardening: USDA Zone 9, Central Florida
Adopt a dog -- you'll never regret it!!!
MABTUCKER
I've just read your letter, and I am in the same position as you with one
major difference. I am a freelance interpreter and I often work in
educational settings. I feel it is my job to interpret ALL forms of
English and ASL, including written. The administration encourages me to
interpret literature if the Deaf consumer requests me to; however, for
the same consumer, I am forbiden to interpret their essays into proper
English. I understand that the point of higher education is to teach the
students how to function in the real world, but if the administration
believes that a Deaf student will not understand literature completely due
to their deafness, then why do they expect the Deaf student's essays to be
perfect?
I can't wait to see the responses we get.
Christian Vogler
Deffman (def...@aol.com) wrote:
: Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
: when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
: those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I feel
: theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
: need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
: dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
: Opinions, anyone?
: My then-fiancee' (and now official ball and chain)
: hollers at me for being such a sucker.
Yes, and she is darn right! You have vented your complaints during
the car trip with Tony and me last Saturday; now it is time to get
back in touch with reality and see whether she does not have a good
point there after all. But thanks for the warning against marriages
anyway. :-)
My very personal, very biased opinion is: If you have time to go over
the mistakes together with the person who asked you for help, and if
that person is willing to learn from his mistakes, then by all means,
do it. There is nothing better than learning from one's own mistakes.
I understand that this would put an extra burden on you, since going
over mistakes and explaining them can be a time consumer, but on the
other hand, I think that really helps.
If it is just for editing's sake and delivering a finished product
without any further discussion, the answer should be a resounding
NO. That way the person gets help in the short run, but in the long
run he is not going to benefit from it. Quite on the contrary, it
only encourages dependece on others, lowers expectations (your
favorite topic, eh, Mark? :-), and generally serves as an excuse not
to do one's own job.
It is probably hard to say no, but in the end, there is no one who
will benefit from a yes.
Christian
--
Christian Vogler cvo...@graphics.cis.upenn.edu
CIS Ph.D. student http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cvogler/home.html
University of Pennsylvania
Omer Zak
On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Deffman wrote:
> In the "Chokeleer Implant" thread, Stephen White wrote:
>
> >I went to school with them and I corrected their assignments before
> >they handed them in so they could get better marks for their work and
> >also so that they could see what I had changed and why.
>
> Hey, this is something I've done countless times with mixed feelings.
[... snipped ...]
> Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
> when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
> those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I feel
> theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
> need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
> dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
One extreme is the attitude adopted by our beloved Oralist teachers:
teach the deaf kid to lipread and speak clearly and then he'll not need
interpreters for the rest of his life.
On the other extreme, we train and assign Sign Language interpreters to
the kid, under the assumption that his lipreading and speech skills are
not going to be adequate no matter how much oral training he gets.
What? I discussed oral skills? Oh yes, I discussed oral skills. The
point is that the skill of fluent written English may be, for some people,
almost as unlearnable as usable oral skills. Therefore similar
considrations may apply. In other words, Deaf people, who need to express
themselves in writing, may want or even need to utilize the services of the
equivalent of Sign Language interpreters - i.e. editors.
The conclusion? Use your judgement to determine whether the help-seeker
can indeed improve his written English by investing reasonable effort.
If yes, then don't edit his English. Otherwise, look for a source of
funding to pay for the services of his written English editor.
--- Omer
Internet E-mail: xla...@wizard.weizmann.ac.il
om...@actcom.co.il
WWW home page: http://www.weizmann.ac.il/~xlacha1/
DEAF-L FAQ home page: http://www.weizmann.ac.il/deaf-info/
Closed Captioning home page moved to: http://www.erols.com/berke/
jms...@stthomas.edu
On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Omer Zak wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Deffman wrote:
> > Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
> > when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
> > those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I feel
> > theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
> > need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
> > dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
>
<snip>
>
> What? I discussed oral skills? Oh yes, I discussed oral skills. The
> point is that the skill of fluent written English may be, for some people,
> almost as unlearnable as usable oral skills. Therefore similar
> considrations may apply. In other words, Deaf people, who need to express
> themselves in writing, may want or even need to utilize the services of the
> equivalent of Sign Language interpreters - i.e. editors.
>
> The conclusion? Use your judgement to determine whether the help-seeker
> can indeed improve his written English by investing reasonable effort.
> If yes, then don't edit his English. Otherwise, look for a source of
> funding to pay for the services of his written English editor.
> --- Omer
Very true Omer! There are hearing people who need editing help just as
much as some deaf people do. My brother is one of them. His spoken
English is fine, but he is really learning disabled and has great
difficulty with reading and writing. I've always wondered how many deaf
kids who struggle so much with reading and writing English are also LD.
Often their struggles are very similar to my brother's. When I got my MA
in special ed.-- Learning disabilities, I was constantly amazed at how many
similarities there were between LD kids and deaf kids in the areas of
reading, writing and spelling. Disabilities tend to run in multiples, so
it would not surprise me that LD was a bit more common among deaf and hoh
people than the general hearing population. And if this is true, learning
ASL first or leaning English first will not necerssarily cure the low
literacy rates of many deaf students.
Jolinda
Adam Skwersky
I might add, Northeastern University pays people to tutor students. I was
on their payroll for quite some time, and I had many many many proofreading
requests. The student did not have to pay for proofreading. Also, many
universities now provide "proofreading help desks" where students can go to
get their papers proofread free.
In my case, however, I always proofread the paper in front of the student,
so she knew what I was doing and why. Since I knew ASL, we didnt need an
interpreter, either.
Adam Skwersky
>In article <53a90d$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, def...@aol.com (Deffman)
>writes:
>
>>Back to my original point... what do you feel is the appropriate response
>>when a deaf person with writing difficulties becomes overly dependent on
>>those who have no problem writing? I like to help, but... sometimes I
>feel
>>theres a limit... a time where you just need to tell someone that they
>>need to learn for themselves ("give someone a fish, and you feed him for
>>dinner... teach him how to fish, and you feed him for life.")
>>
>>
>
>Why not turn it into a source of income??? I'm deaf myself, and one of my
>former pastors still asks me to proofread, edit, etc. his seminary papers
>... this is a hearing man whose wife is a teacher/counselor working with
>learning disabled (hearing) kids. I have a home business offering various
>business services and charge (by the hour) for this kind of work. He is
>happy to pay me for my work, and his papers have all gotten A or better so
>far. Another friend (deaf) has already decided to use my services.
>
>The quality or amount of editing I do is different for these two
>individuals. The hearing customer gets the most editing/correction
>suggestions, but the deaf customer - at her request - gets only what
>editing/correcting is absolutely needed to make her papers understandable
>to her hearing teachers.
>
>If your help is valuable enough to your friends, they might be willing to
>pay something in return for your work. If not, they may stop asking you -
>and you'll feel less burdened.
>
>
>Martha E. Knowles ***** Wil...@aol.com
>Gardening: USDA Zone 9, Central Florida
>Adopt a dog -- you'll never regret it!!!
Man Vehicle Lab
Office: 37-135
Interdepartmental Mail: 37-219
askw...@mit.edu
550 Memorial Dr. #4C2
Cambridge, MA 02139
Harry Blackmore
Deffman, Omer Zak, and many others have commented on the help
with English composition often sought by some deaf people.
I have compiled a "centenary book" on the history of the Western
Australian School for Deaf Children, and I wanted it to be composed
largely of articles submitted by former pupils. Regrettably, most
declined because they were embarrassed at their standard of English
language (despite reassurances to help).
For over twenty years I conducted a weekly class for deaf adults to
help them improve their use of English, with disappointing results.
(OK, I may not be the ideal teacher, but no one else offered!). They
were also reluctant to participate in appropriate literacy courses by
correspondence through the local Education Department.
Some education academics have asserted that unless children gain
a good grasp of the language by age six, they are rarely able to
show mastery in adulthood.
Two questions:
1) How valid is this last assertion, in general?
2) Is there a record somewhere of good results with general adult
deaf habilitation in English literacy?
I would be interested in others' experiences and research references.
(I'm asking with reference to the general population of deaf people,
not to those exceptional individuals who are remarkable but hardly
represent the general group)
Harry Blackmore
--
Dr Harry Blackmore <ha...@perth.dialix.oz.au>
+61 9 245 1474 Mail: 43 Newborough St, Scarborough, Western Australia, 6019
Roving Reporter
You're not doing anyone a favor when you do their work for them.
However, here's a rule I tend to use when I'm dealing with
assignments: I'll be happy to mark the errors, but you gotta fix
'em on your own. People don't learn when *you* do the corrections,
but rather when *they* do the fixing. And if they can't, then tell
them you'll be happy to charge them $8/Hr. to learn how to fix their
mistakes. If they are sincerely interested in learning, they'll pay.
If they're not, no harm done.
*******************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger - tls...@concentric.net *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/ *
*******************************************************
* En Ring er over dem alle, En Ring kan finde de andre
* En Ring kan bringe dem alle, i morket laenke dem alle
* I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge. - JRR Tolkien
*******************************************************
Terry M. Teague (Shell)
Big amen!
--Terry
=======================================================
Terry M. Teague in Silver Spring, Maryland, USA.
My workplace's TTY: 202-366-0992
Home: TTY: 301-589-0304
FAX: 301-608-3714
BBS: 301-608-3712 if you let me know.
For FTP users: /pub/teague7/incoming/mi for exporting.
/pub/teague7 for importing.
Deffman
In article <1996100715...@astro.ocis.temple.edu>, Kelby Nathan
Brick <kbr...@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU> writes:
>So what. It is not because they are deaf, but because you have better
>English than them.
Good point, and its true... there are plenty of hearing people who have
problems writing. Now that I think about it, I *have* seen several
examples of bad writing from hearing people, and I know that the worldwide
illiteracy rate is staggering.
But none of those hearing people have ever asked me to revise their papers
or reports. Many deaf people have. Term papers, essays, resumes, cover
letters, evaluations, IEP's, you name it. So in my subjective world, its a
deaf issue. Maybe its because deaf people are more willing to admit
they're struggling with English. Maybe it's because Im deaf myself and my
peers are more comfortable coming to me for help (I do have a friend who
does his damndest to make sure no hearing staff members are aware that he
has difficulty writing). Or maybe its because they know me well... and its
common knowledge among my friends that I dont know how to say no. I have
no idea.
Anyway, I received many helpful responses from a lot of Deaf-L'ers, most
of them very supportive. To everyone who responded, either on the list or
via private e-mail, I'd like to say a big thanks. It really helped and I
will be doing my best to do the right thing...
Mark
Krakadoom
I've had and still have people constantly asking me to help them read
insurance forms, tax forms, write letters to corporations, lawyers, etc.
Requests are usually but not always from Deaf friends ( surprises me at
how many hearies can't read or write decently these days ). Among the
people who ask me for editing help is my Deaf wife. In any case, like you,
I have mixed feelings at times. At times, I prefer to spend my time doing
something else. I sometimes even hide to avoid my weekends being
commandered by such requests. This is less a problem now because I live
ina location that is not easily accesible. In any case, I often concede
because as you mention, people will and do offer a return. If not their
sincere gratitude, then like a pal of mine, return the favor in some other
way. I got a pal who some might call a 'nut" Deaf, but he knows cars
better than many ASE mechanics. He has saved me thousands more than once
by doing some major work on everything from brakes and timing belt
changing to an engine overhaul. Yet he can't read a manual on how to
install a spark plug to save his life. Sometimes he doesn't even charge me
despite spending an entire weekend on my car. The point is, we're all
lacking in some area or another. But you get us helping each other
cooperatively and we're one formidable species. A darn shame we can't
remember that engage in belittling someone who isn't as well-informed
about something that you. My "nut" Deaf pal has it all over me when it
comes to cars. And yes, he gets as frustrated with me as I do with him
when either of us tries to teach the other in our individual areas of
expertise.
What did Forest Gump say? Oh, his mother actually, ahh yes, "Stupid is as
stupid does." How true.
Listening Stephen?
Wilona1
In article <1996100807...@perth.DIALix.oz.au>, Harry Blackmore
<ha...@PERTH.DIALIX.OZ.AU> writes:
>Some education academics have asserted that unless children gain
>a good grasp of the language by age six, they are rarely able to
>show mastery in adulthood.
>
>Two questions:
>1) How valid is this last assertion, in general?
>2) Is there a record somewhere of good results with general adult
> deaf habilitation in English literacy?
>
>I would be interested in others' experiences and research references.
>(I'm asking with reference to the general population of deaf people,
>not to those exceptional individuals who are remarkable but hardly
>represent the general group)
You'd probably include me in the "exceptional individuals" group. So I
guess my only comment is -- by the time I lost my hearing, I already had a
good grasp of the English language.
However, just having a good grasp of the language doesn't always mean
you'll have good mastery of it as an adult. Look at all the hearing folks
with poor mastery of it!
I'd have to say -- as I've said before -- a large part of it is probably
connected with how much the individual reads - and how well he/she
understands what he/she reads. I've always loved reading.
Deffman
>Some education academics have asserted that unless children gain
>a good grasp of the language by age six, they are rarely able to
>show mastery in adulthood.
>
>Two questions:
>1) How valid is this last assertion, in general?
>2) Is there a record somewhere of good results with general adult
> deaf habilitation in English literacy?
Unfortunately I have no research or statistics to back up my own personal
observation, but I do know of some deaf adults whose English skills
improved considerably after the advent of closed-captioned TV. I also know
of some others who improved after countless TTY conversations with
friends/colleagues who had better writing skills. It's all about exposure,
exposure, and more exposure to language. Of course, as we've discussed a
million times in here, its optimal if the exposure occurs at an early
age... but nothing is impossible. :)
Mark