Contra Harold Camping, The Man Who Knows it All
marks
Q. Some denominations have in their heritage a person who based
his teaching on a "holy vision" he had received. And many
evangelists and pastors say they regularly receive visions and
messages from God. How can we know which message is real?
A. None of them! Whether those people really saw a vision or
whether they are faking, we cannot know. But we can be sure that
if they did see something, whatever they saw, it was not of God.
The Bible is the only Word of God for us today.
Baloney! As though a word from the Holy Spirit today must
necessarily be in opposition to his word in Scripture. Harold
sees only two alternatives. God has to have either clammed up
(Harold's position) or we must believe that God is still adding
brand new revelations (the Mormon position). It doesn't seem to
occur to Harold that God may be saying the same new thing over and
over again since the close of the apostolic age (which is why
charismatics can both believe in the movement of the Spirit today
and yet remain the stolidly orthodox Christians they generally
are.) Harold continues with this absurd bit of exegesis...
But when God came to the last chapter of the last book of the
Bible, namely Revelation 22, He declared in verse 28: "If any one
adds to the words of this book, I will add to him the plagues
written therein." That is a warning we must all heed....God says in effect, "
I've given you my
whole revelation for this age; you will no longer receive
additional messages from me. If somehow a message comes to you
supernaturally, you can know for sure that it is not from me.
Gimme a break, Harold. By this reckoning, God retired in stony
silence to the highest heaven the moment the ink was dry on
Revelations. Yet Revelations was itself a book that was the
subject of intense debate in the early Church as to whether or not
it was even canonical. How then did the Church decide this matter
of momentous importance? By Harold's reckoning they must have
just.... guessed (since the Holy Spirit had clammed up centuries
before and now could only play charades by clapping his hand over
his mouth and pointing to something called "Scripture" (though no
one was entirely agreed on what that was till the pontificate of
Pope Damasus.) Therefore: to refresh memory let us return to
Exegesis 101 and recall that this verse refers not to the entire
Bible, but to the book of Revelations. It says *nothing* about
whether God is still communicating with his Church today. It says
*nothing* for or against the notion of ongoing public revelation.
To arrive at the notion of the closure of public revelation you
are obliged to consult, not Scripture, but Tradition as it is
preserved in the Body of Christ under the guidance of the Spirit
(which indeed affirms that public revelation is closed.) But that
same Tradition does not agree with Harold that private revelation,
dreams, visions, prophecy and spiritual gifts are now impossible
(a fact well-known by all the charismatics on this list). Rather
it simply insists that such revelations and spiritual gifts, to be
valid manifestations of the Spirit, must be in accord with the
deposit of faith preserved in Scripture and Tradition.
Really, Harold. One might almost get the impression that *you*
had a private revelation since you are so cocksure about
something that Scripture itself is singularly silent on. For
myself, I am quite willing to grant that pentecostals and
charismatics are on to something important. Is Billy Graham of
the devil since he believes in the gifts of the Spirit? Was St.
Francis since he received the stigmata in a mystical ecstasy? Or
St. Catherine of Siena with her mystical ecstasies and dialogues
with God the Father? Indeed, how on earth do you expect *anyone*
to carry on a "personal relationship with Jesus" when (as you
would have it) Jesus refuses to speak with us and instead *only*
points us to a book. Suppose (as was the case for most of Church
history) the believer can't read. Are they just out of luck?
Guess so.
You continue...
In fact, the Bible warns that as we transition into the final
tribulation, the devil will perform more and more signs and
wonders, snaring a huge number of unsaved people in the church
into worshiping him (Matt. 24:24).
Gosh! Apparently you *do* think Billy and Francis and Augustine
and Catherine and *lots* of others who took spiritual gifts
seriously are "unsaved" and "ensnared by the devil." Well,
experience has shown me that a mind like yours seldom yields to
reason or love, but for the sake of charismatics on this list who
may feel a bit bruised by such sweeping condemnation it may be
worthwhile to pause for moment and consider a few points:
1. Yes. The devil can deceive with signs and wonders. Does that
mean all signs and wonders are deception? The ones I've seen
have moved people to worship, not Satan, but the Lord Jesus who
performs them.
2. Besides, the devil can deceive with *Scripture* (see the
temptation narratives or contemplate the careers of certain
noted Christians of our day, most of whom have had "scriptural"
warrant for their bizarre notions and practices). Does that make
Scripture evil?
3. Neither mothers nor babies are much helped by throwing baby out
with the bath. In short, the abuse of spiritual gifts, like the
abuse of Scripture is not cured by denying the right use of
either. Nor is anything helped by issuing sweeping condemnations
of all of charismatic and pentecostal Christendom as "ensnared by
the devil." It is cured by submitting the gift (and the
individual interpretation of Scripture) to the guidance of the
Spirit in the Body of Christ.
Broaden thy heart, Harold! Broaden thy heart! Test everything.
Hold on to what is good (even if it is charismatic). Scripture
has stern warnings for those who insist on attributing to Satan
the work of the Holy Spirit for the sake of protecting their
narrow little theology.
Charismatics, take heart. Keep reading your Bibles. Keep loving
Jesus. Keep listening for the voice of the Lord in union with
his whole Church. Moses was *not* wrong to wish that *everyone*
be granted the spirit of prophecy.
Under the Mercy,
Mark Shea
Patrick
> Harold Camping, who Knows All, Sees All, writes
>
>Q. Some denominations have in their heritage a person who based
>his teaching on a "holy vision" he had received. And many
>evangelists and pastors say they regularly receive visions and
>messages from God. How can we know which message is real?
>
>A. None of them! Whether those people really saw a vision or
>whether they are faking, we cannot know. But we can be sure that
>if they did see something, whatever they saw, it was not of God.
>The Bible is the only Word of God for us today.
>
> Baloney! As though a word from the Holy Spirit today must
> necessarily be in opposition to his word in Scripture. Harold
> sees only two alternatives. God has to have either clammed up
> (Harold's position) or we must believe that God is still adding
> brand new revelations (the Mormon position). It doesn't seem to
> occur to Harold that God may be saying the same new thing over and
> over again since the close of the apostolic age (which is why
> charismatics can both believe in the movement of the Spirit today
> and yet remain the stolidly orthodox Christians they generally
> are.) Harold continues with this absurd bit of exegesis...
Bravo! I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm tired of this
refuse being posted. Talk about dividing the Body of Christ ...
According to Mr. Camping and his ilk all of those who don't believe
his way are doomed and living a LIE. After reading a few of these
postings ... I wondered how boring and uneventful it would be
living with this faith!
Mark continues in his erudite manner ...
> Gimme a break, Harold. By this reckoning, God retired in stony
> silence to the highest heaven the moment the ink was dry on
> Revelations. Yet Revelations was itself a book that was the
> subject of intense debate in the early Church as to whether or not
> it was even canonical. How then did the Church decide this matter
> of momentous importance? By Harold's reckoning they must have
> just.... guessed (since the Holy Spirit had clammed up centuries
The Holy Spirit is alive and well (thank you) and not "clammed up"
according to Mr. Camping.
Mark continues ...
> charismatics are on to something important. Is Billy Graham of
> the devil since he believes in the gifts of the Spirit? Was St.
> Francis since he received the stigmata in a mystical ecstasy? Or
> St. Catherine of Siena with her mystical ecstasies and dialogues
> with God the Father? Indeed, how on earth do you expect *anyone*
> to carry on a "personal relationship with Jesus" when (as you
> would have it) Jesus refuses to speak with us and instead *only*
> points us to a book.
> and Catherine and *lots* of others who took spiritual gifts
I think Mark makes a valid point here. Harold and his followers
need to look at the fruit of the many saints during the past
centuries. Also, according to Camping, he and his group would definetly
be in a tiny minority of those who profess to be Christian. All of
those that believe in the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" are doomed
... that would include all Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican,
Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Charismatics and a whole bunch of others.
Mark, I concur, "BALONEY"!
God bless,
Patrick
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PATRICK J. DONOHOE JR. INTERNET: DONO...@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
VIRGINIA TECH BITNET: DONOHOEP@VTVM1
BLACKSBURG, VA. USA
ANY OPINIONS ARE MINE EXCEPT WHERE NOTED, AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE
OF VIRGINIA TECH.