Shannon Faulkner
James Hart
My parents and I have a very strong suspicion that they pushed her much harder
than the male cadets for the purpose of forcing her to drop out. Does anyone
else think this is a possibility? and if it turns out to be true, could we be
seeing a big investigation or something? I'm curious about the legal aspects
here.
My curiosity also comes from my own experiences. Several months ago, I began
looking into 4-year colleges because I was almost finished at the 2-year school
I was at. I contacted North Georgia College because it is only 8 minutes from
my home. The problem with the college is that they have a rule that all males
that live on campus have to be in the ROTC and participate in those activities.
I told them that I couldn't drive due to my epilepsy so I would have to live
on campus but that my other disabilities would prevent me from being in the
ROTC. When I spoke with the administration of the college, I was told that
they would make an exception to their rule and let me live on campus but that I
would not be happy and that I would leave within 2 weeks--this was said in a
tone of voice that I took to mean that the college would make sure I wasn't
happy and that I would leave. They said that this had been tried once before
and that that person left very quickly.
Having been told this, I simply marked North Georgia off of my list of schools.
I'm curious though, if this happened in the past and if it happens again in the
future, are there legal matters which would force the college to change it's
rules and its practices. If enough males with disabilities tried to go to NGC,
would they be forced to build a separate dormatory for nonmilitary males (not
necessarily for all disabled males)?
Just Curious,
James Hart
Rev. Jim Sutter
> From: James Hart * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
>
>My parents and I have a very strong suspicion that they pushed her much
>harder
From what I have seen on the news, she was not pushed for any reason; she
went to sick bay on her first day, complaining of the heat, then stayed there
until when she resigned. As a former military man myself, I think she's a
disgrace for not even trying. So what if it's hot ? Does she think that if
we go to war, that we're going to carry air-conditioning units with us ?
Rev Jim
Ryan Robbins
<IRI...@AOL.COM> says:
>
>From what I have seen on the news, she was not pushed for any reason; she
>went to sick bay on her first day, complaining of the heat, then stayed there
>until when she resigned. As a former military man myself, I think she's a
>disgrace for not even trying. So what if it's hot ? Does she think that if
>we go to war, that we're going to carry air-conditioning units with us ?
I must take exception to the above comment. For the record, Faulkner couldn't
hold food down for two to three days. There were something like four other
cadets who were also admitted to the infirmary for heat exhaustion. She didn't
simply roll over after a few hours and decide to quit. She spent more than
two years fighting in court to get the opportunity to become a cadet, so I
don't see how anybody could claim she was a "disgrace for not even trying."
I remember a photograph that ran in newspapers across the country about
10 years or so ago that was taken at a ceremony involving the military. One
soldier had collapsed while wearing his formal uniform in extreme heat and
NONE of his colleagues so much as flinched to help him. Why? Because they
were not allowed to help him. In many ways the military strikes me as an
extremely hypocritical institution that loves to squelch free speech and
discriminate against all classes of people under the guise of "unit
cohesiveness" and "troop morale," all the while fighting for freedom.
Extremely odd, if you ask me.
_____________________________________________________________________
Ryan Robbins "Nothing in fine print is ever good news."
University of Maine -- Andy Rooney
_____________________________________________________________________
RROB...@Maine.Maine.Edu ____________________________________________
http://maine.maine.edu/~rrobbi32/____________________________________
Rev. Jim Sutter
>RROB...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins)
RE: Sharon Faulkner.
In your support of Ms. Faulkner's short-lived time at the Citadel, you may
have missed my prior point. Admittedly, it is a point that sometimes is
difficult for a civilian to understand. I am now a civilian, but I served my
country, and received the Navy Cross, (the highest award from the Navy), the
Dept of Defense Medal of Valor, and the Purple Heart. So I like to think
that I am somewhat qualified to speak to "espirit de corps".
The very black and white facts appear to be thus: Ms. Faulkner spent years
in court, costing herself and the Citadel tens of thousands of legal dollars.
She won, which is not a problem (I believe women should be involved in
active duty). She went to her first week, otherwise known as Hell Week. The
temperature was very hot, and she and several male cadets reported to sickbay
with probable heat exhaustion. After a couple of days in sickbay, she quit.
Three points stand out, probably most clearly to vets, but civilians should
be able to understand here, too... (A) Wars are NOT fought when there is
good, comfortable weather. Wars are fought in extreme heat and extreme cold.
Wars are fought in sunshine and in monsoons. Wars are fought in the desert
and in blizzards. Soldiers and sailors train for All types of weather, and
if the serviceperson cannot tolerate a little heat, then they have no place
in the service. (B) Several men reported to sickbay with heat exhaustion at
the same time as Ms. Faulkner, yet the majority of them didn't resign. (C)
Ms. Faulkner fought like mad in court to get the opportunity to try to become
a military officer. She won in court, she tried at the Citidal and she
couldn't hack it - exactly what the Citadel's attorneys had spent years in
court trying to explain to her. When I say she tried, I say so somewhat
facetiously, as military training is meant to be extremely difficult, and
millions of men have completed it over the years. One must try and try again
to suceed in the military. I don't know her personally, and I have nothing
personally against her, but I strongly believe she could have tried harder.
The reaction of the other cadets was extremely unprofessional, and I would
imagine they have been disciplined. An officer is to be a gentleman, and
part of that is not to rejoice at the shortcomings of others. Rev Jim
Stephen KIng
RE: Sharon Faulkner.
>In your support of Ms. Faulkner's short-lived time at the Citadel, you may have
point. Admittedly, it is a point that sometimes is difficult for a civilian to
civilian, but I served my country, and received the Navy Cross, (the highest awa
Navy), the Dept of Defense Medal of Valor, and the Purple Heart. So I like to t
somewhat qualified to speak to "espirit de corps".
The very black and white facts appear to be thus: Ms. Faulkner spent years in c
herself and the Citadel tens of thousands of legal dollars. She won, which is no
believe women should be involved in active duty). She went to her first week, o
as Hell Week. The temperature was very hot, and she and several male cadets rep
sickbay with probable heat exhaustion. After a couple of days in sickbay, she q
Three points stand out, probably most clearly to vets, but civilians should be a
here, too... (A) Wars are NOT fought when there is good, comfortable weather.
in extreme heat and extreme cold. Wars are fought in sunshine and in monsoons.
fought in the desert and in blizzards. Soldiers and sailors train for All types
the serviceperson cannot tolerate a little heat, then they have no place in the
men reported to sickbay with heat exhaustion at the same time as Ms. Faulkner, y
of them didn't resign. (C) Ms. Faulkner fought like mad in court to get the opp
become a military officer. She won in court, she tried at the Citidal and she c
exactly what the Citadel's attorneys had spent years in court trying to explain
she tried, I say so somewhat facetiously, as military training is meant to be ex
and millions of men have completed it over the years. One must try and try agai
the military. I don't know her personally, and I have nothing personally agains
strongly believe she could have tried harder. The reaction of the other cadets w
unprofessional, and I would imagine they have been disciplined. An officer is t
and part of that is not to rejoice at the shortcomings of others. Rev Jim
Without regard to your excellent service to our country, the
Corps' behavior, where cadets sliding across the floor in celebration.
What makes you think it was dealt with internally? The Corps owes a
public apology for the conduct of its young men for their delight at
someone's downfall. I support single sex education (gender is the
wrong word) and I support the right of choice. Pyrrhic victories
produce consternation on both sides as it has here. The Citadel still
is under court order not to discriminate on the basis of sex in its
admissions process and many Faulkner supporters are condemning
her as Ms. Roberts did this morning on ABC's "This week with David
Brinkley." Ms. Roberts' reaction and the reaction of other women
who supported and now condemn Faulkner's CHOICES are the
reasons I drew the parallel I did between Shannon Faulkner and Jane
Roe. Roe was also used by a movement. Watch how quickly Faulkner
is discarded!
To me the Citadel cadets reaction to Faulkner's withdrawal
caused me to react the way I did when a South Vietnamese Police
Officer summarily executed a VC spy. I questioned what we were
protecting vs. what we were fighting. If one is objective about
Faulkner and the Citadel, I feel we (South Carolina) must review the
Citadel's tradition. It was not an isolated incident. Clearly much of the
Corps was celebrating. How can we be sure that these cadets were
disciplined? Their word? I don't think so! It is entirely possible that
the Citadel Corps' single sex educational system must end! I do not
even believe the money is the real issue. Are we going to put a price
tag on values? On Honor? All in all, I have made a firm decision to
sit on the fence and ponder this issue some more.
respectfully submitted by a fence sitter.
Patr...@aol.com
>Three points stand out, probably most clearly to vets, but civilians should
>be able to understand here, too... (A) Wars are NOT fought when there is
>good, comfortable weather.
etc, etc, etc . . . Need I remind you, veteran though you may be (as am I),
the Citadel MAY be run like a military school, BUT IT IS NOT THE MILITARY! I
spent 12 years in the U.S.Navy myself and you are comparing a spindly crab
apple to a juicy, bright red Delicious Apple.
Schools like that may turn out good leaders, some of whom amy be good
military leaders, but so does Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth.
Robert Schoenfeld
Rev Jim
You forgot two key points in the Shannon Faulkner case
1: Under federal law ahe SHOULD have been admitted withoout question
instead of waiting TWO LONG YEARS
2: Maybe she PERSONNALLY couldn't handle the weather or the drills BUT
she wasn't given a REAL chance in the first place
In fact her case sounds almost directly like yours against the town with
the change that she was a woman and your disabled. Don't complain about
someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes
de Bob
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The Road of Life is a Railroad
Annoy a fascist: Confront him with the facts
Rev. Jim Sutter
>(re: Sharon Faulkner)
>2: Maybe she PERSONNALLY couldn't handle the weather or the drills BUT
>she wasn't given a REAL chance in the first place
>
>In fact her case sounds almost directly like yours against the town with
>the change that she was a woman and your disabled. Don't complain about
>someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes
First of all, as a vet, and as someone who certaily knows how hard boot camp
or similar training is, I cannot repeat enough times that wars are not always
fought in clear, cool weather. Snow, rain, monsoons, extreme heat, all enter
into the modern battlefield. If someone wants to train ads a soldier, they
should expect a rough time. Women have successfully completed much rougher
training in Army, Navy, and Marine boot camps. Women have the absolute right
to train and fight alongside men if they so choose, but if they want to give
up right away because it's too hot, I just can't credit them for trying.
And no, I really don't see any comparison with my ADA fight against my
hometown. I, unlike Ms. Faulkner, have not given up. Instead of lasting two
days, I have fought this battle every day since early in 1992. No matter
what the weather was, I was demanding ADA compliance. Many times I was out
in my wheelchair in pouring rain or 20 below zero weather, taking measurments
or pictures of inaccessible areas. It takes much more than weather to stop
me.
I feel so strongly about Ms. Faulkner because there are many, many brave
souls who trained and fought and died for their country. They went the extra
mile, they didn't let weather stop them. To the best of my knowledge, Ms.
Faulkner has no disability. She wasted two years of court time.
By the way, it's "Don't condemn someone until you've wheeled a mile in their
chair." on this listserve. Rev. Jim
Michael MASINTER
prepare physically and mentally for inherrently unpredictable and
frequently unpleasant battlefield conditions should remember
that the Citdadel is not a true military academy. Unlike the true
military acadamies (eg West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs), the
Citadel is a state (not federal) school. Graduates of our military
acadamies receive a free education funded by US taxpayers; in return, they
must serve in the military following graduation. By contrast, US
taxpayers do not fund the Citadel; it is a state school whose graduates
have neither the obligation to serve in the military nor any special
entree into it. Fewer than one third of Citadel graduates enter into
military service. Although it holds itself out as offering a kind of
military training, its prinicpal attraction for many is the entree it
offers into the Charleston business community and good old boy network.
Women who aspire to become part of the Charleston inner circle, or who
wish to have the increased access that comes with a Citadel degree, have
as much right as men to try to earn that degree until we repeal the equal
protection clause of the fourteenth amendment.
Beyond that, I am puzzled by the willingness of too many subscribers to
this list to defend state sponsored gender discrimination while
condemning all discrimination against people with disabilities. Unless
there is a moral foundation to our opposition to disability
discrimination, we are just another interest group clamoring for our
piece of the pie, no better or worse than tobacco farmers.
Michael R. Masinter 3305 College Avenue
Nova Southeastern University Fort Lauderdale, Fl. 33314
Shepard Broad Law Center (305) 452-6151
masi...@alpha.acast.nova.edu
Rev. Jim Sutter
up or just thought it funny to credit to me.
My thoughts on Shannon Faulkner are well known, I think she wimped out, and
in turn proved to have wasted two years of court time. Rev Jim
ANYTHING BELOW THIS IS NOT MY MESSAGE !
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In a message dated 95-08-23 07:28:55 EDT, you write:
>In article <9508201156...@mail02.mail.aol.com> "Rev. Jim Sutter"
><IRI...@AOL.COM> writes:
>>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 11:56:45 -0400
>>From: "Rev. Jim Sutter" <IRI...@AOL.COM>
>>Subject: Re: Shannon Faulkner
>Shannon didn't just go through hell week, she went through two years of hell
>trying to get the same tax supported education that males in her state are
>provided. She held out just long enough to win at the Sumpreme Court level.
>I'm sure that Shannon will get her degree, eventually, from a school with
>more
>prestige than the Citadel. The real losers are the cadets who made
>themselves
>look like jerks celebrating her leaving. The world is a different place
>today. Men need to be prepared to work as collegues with women, and to work
>under the supervision of women. A degree from the Citadel just may be a
>liability rather than an asset.
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Janice Fahey
>j...@cts.com
>
>
Alan Woods
surrounding Faulkner's withdrawal from the Citadel. Whether Faulkner herself
failed or succeeded (and the answer to that will depend a great deal on what
one regards as her projected aim), surely the larger question has to do with
discrimination, and with the reserving of privilege for a specific group of
people who are defined by external manifestations (gender, ethnicity, mobility,
what have you) rather than by ability or accessibility to
schools/organizations/training programs funded by public monies.
Perhaps it's time to call a halt to the discussion, however; we're all
wallowing in opinion/perceptions/biases/prejudices (take your pick), rather
than the legal ramifications of Faulkner's case and her withdrawal.
Alan Woods
VMRC
<souls who trained and fought and died for their country. They went the
extra
<mile, they didn't let weather stop them. To the best of my knowledge,
Ms.
<Faulkner has no disability. She wasted two years of court time.
<
<By the way, it's "Don't condemn someone until you've wheeled a mile in
their
<chair." on this listserve. Rev. Jim
Rev Jim,
Without belittling your efforts, I think it's a cheap shot to accuse
Faulkner essentially of cowardice. She's just a kid, and she probably
didn't have a real good idea of what she was getting into. I hope the
media leave her alone and let her get on with her life. She certainly
deserves some credit for bringing the issue to a head.
Women don't need to prove that they can make it through military PT and
hazing. They do it all the time at the service academies. Besides, there
will be others following in Faulkner's footsteps.
Dick Jacobs, Exec Dir
VMRC, Inc.
rja...@moa.com
Jerry Costley
>RE: Sharon Faulkner.
>
Faulkner wanted was a chance--a chance to try and see if she could do it, a
chance to see what it was all about. Perhaps her desire was increased, as
it sometimes is, by the fact that this chance was originally forbidden to
her. At any rate, she got her chance, and in this she succeeded and
obtained what she wanted. I believe that this is what we are about with the
ADA--the provision of chances and opportunities with all of the risks that
these entail. An opportunity to try, even when the attempt results in
failure, is still a resounding success. Lets all support increased
opportunities to try, no matter where they occur or what the ultimate result is.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jerry Costley, CEO
Avatar, Inc.
4042 Pacific Avenue
Riverdale, Utah 84405
(801) 392-7485
Fax (801) 392-1346
E-Mail ava...@utw.com
Alan Woods
raised here, despite the inflammatory responses, hinges on the question of
accessibility. And access implies the right to fail as well as to succeed.
Alan Woods