cable drop to garage

[James Grossmann]

I have been thinking about burying an ethernet drop to the detached
garage in the new house we're probably going to be moving to. In
research, I found that someone suggested fiber instead of copper, and
I can see that considering the possibility of thunderstorms around
here.
So my questions are:
1. Is there enough reason to go to fiber rather than copper (I don't
have anything that is fiber right now, so I would have to buy
converters)?
2. If I do go to fiber, right now, I'm probably going to be going with
a 100base fx, however, I would like to go with something that is
fairly future-proof -- ie. gigabit/10gigabit -- is there any specific
fiber type that I should purchase for that purpose?
3. Termination is always a difficulty as well, considering I don't
have any tools for fiber, what type of termination should I purchase
and will I need some patch cables, etc. from drop to the converter
which would make the choice of termination at the ends of the drop
mute?
4. Where does one purchase pre-terminated direct-bury fiber, or ought
I just to put it into a conduit.
Thanks,
James

[James Grossmann]

One Further Question:
5. Is there any auto-negotiation in fiber, whereby I might have a
gigabit module in my switch and a 100 mbit converter in the garage?

[Jonathan Ziemann]

You'll need 2 of these.  One for each end.  It should do everything you want.

TRENDnet TFC-1000MGB Fiber Converter 2000Mbps (Full Duplex) 1 x 1000Base-T with RJ45 Connector 1 x 1000Base-SX/LX Mini-GBIC Slot for optional Mini-GBIC module

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156085&cm_re=fiber_converter-_-33-156-085-_-Product

Home switch into converter using CAT6.  Then plug fiber cable into converter.  Then in your garage, plug in the other end of the fiber cable into the garage converter.  Finally plug in another CAT6 cable into the garage converter and the other end into your garage switch.

Jona

[Jonathan Ziemann]

1. If you are going to have the drop more than 100 meters, then you definitely need to go with fiber.  Otherwise I would go with CAT6 plenum.  It is going to be much cheaper, and you don't need any termination tools.  I usually buy cables from www.blackbox.com, or newegg.

2. See my previous post on the converter.  Just make sure you get the right ends.

3. Search "fiber cable" in Newegg, or www.blackbox.com.  You can buy them with the ends on already.  If you need to buy in bulk, then you will need termination tools. You can get all the tools from www.blackbox.com.  The termination type will depend on the hardware that you have.

4. Search "fiber cable" in Newegg, or www.blackbox.com.  I would definitely use conduit.

Jona

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:27 PM, James Grossmann <cct...@gmail.com> wrote:

[James Grossmann]

Then I think I'll go with cat6, the drop would be about 60 ft. I was
just kinda concerned about the possibility of lightning causing surges
on my systems.
thanks,
James

[Jonathan Ziemann]

I would also recommend a UPS for your equipment.

Jona

[James Grossmann]

In the garage or in the house? In the house I've got almost
everything on an UPS. I'm actually looking at consolidating all my
network server (if you can call it that) equipment as much as possible
into a rack which will be entirely protected by UPS. However, I
wasn't really planning on it for the garage, because most of my
equipment out there (an old computer and possibly some other cheap
equipment) wouldn't be worth it... I did note this ethernet surge
protector, which sounds interesting:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812106054&Tpk=ethernet%20surge%20protector%20gigabit
Thanks,
James

[Robert Hart]

If you buried a conduit, then you can pull cables fairly easily and then
you can change your mind later.

Also, (like you said) lightning suppressors would probably lessen the
thunderstorm risk.

Just a thought.
Robert

[Eric Wanchic]

I was going to suggest this too for the same reasons. Either conduit or
white pvc. To add, ND (Bismarck) code suggests pipes and cables be
buried under the frost line, which is about 4 feet, but I'd think 1-2
feet would be adequate. I see a lot of sprinker systems above the frost
line, and since this is not for water you shouldn't have to worry about
this. It's just deep enough for the accidental shovel, soil erosion, and
lawn mower :)

To add, you don't need plenum. Plenum is only for open-ventilation
ducts, like the server room at ITD. This project is ok. I too would go
with CAT6 or higher. If your paranoid, I'd spent the extra money for
shielded cable, or tin foil to wrap around the cable :)

Eric

[Robert Hart]

Is the below the frost line advice also to reduce the risk of shear from
frost heave? Just wondering

Robert

[Brent]

I'm not sure I understand the concern about lighting .... having it
buried in the ground is your best bet against a lighting surge.
Perhaps you are thinking of golfer under the tree that get hits by
lightening? Polarization of the ground affecting a buried cable is
not an issue unless the integrity of the wire has been compromised.
Even then having collateral damage is unlikely. Has someone heard of
such a case? Just curious.

[Eric Wanchic]

That's probably true although I've never heard it mentioned; I had to
look up frost heaving. Technically, foundations must be poured to below
the frostline (4 feet). Even if you are only going to have a single
floor house, the foundation footings must be that low. So, I'd say
that's a accurate assumption. I think another big reason is so water
pipes don't burst. You can get away with it in a sprinkler line as long
as you blow them out in the autumn. Although I'm not an expert, I
haven't heard much about frost heaving around here.

This is a great video demo on this effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i5r65QGUpw&feature=PlayList&p=C2CBD44317E84BBF&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=25

Eric

[Brent]

Wire that is rated for direct bury will generally be unaffected by
frost because only the first few inches of the ground have movement.
Even so, such cable is designed to be flexed/stretched at low temps
without failing. Your CATV line is likely around 12"-18" below the
ground. Direct burial electric wires, by code, are required to be
18" (or more) below grade (the depth is set for safety concerns not
because the wire won't perform if it is only 1" below the ground).

Regardless, conduit is the way to go, that provides an avenue for
later running more wire, telco, cable, another circuit, etc.

[Brent]

Oh and .... even if you do run conduit, still run a outdoor or direct
burial rated cable. I have seen cheaper cable literally have the
jacket spontaneously burst in cold temperatures.

[Jonathan Ziemann]

I agree with Eric.  You will want shielded cable, especially in conduit.  If you run electric, I would suggest that you use separate conduit.  If you are going to run both types in the same conduit, you definitely need to go with shielded to reduce noise.  Here is what I would recommend: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10232&cs_id=1023216&p_id=5907&seq=1&format=2

Jona

[Jonathan Ziemann]

I used to run catv and in town, it is more like 4-6".  For longer drops using a machine, it goes down about 18".

[James Grossmann]

One of the reasons I'm asking this is that we will probably be having
a propane line buried to a spot very near the garage and I thought
that while things were being trenched, I'd add an ethernet drop to the
garage, I paced it off, and it's about 50-60 ft.
My concern with lightning arises from experiences where equipment
which is connected to the outside world seem to die from surges much
more regularly than equipment which is only connected within my house,
so I thought if I could plan for it, I could minimize future
problems/costs. That's why I looked initially at fiber, because I
know there's electrical isolation between the two ends at that point,
but it seems somewhat cost prohibitive to me.
Is there a possibility that a shielded cat6 might be grounded on
either end and produce a Faraday cage to protect from surges? Here's
the cable I'm looking at:
http://www.cat5ecableguy.com/inc/sdetail/14224 the CAT6 Direct Burial
Gel-Filled & UV Resistant
James

[Brent]

I don't believe grounding the shields is helpful, shielding is
typically only grounded on one end, grounding both ends introduces the
possibility for current to flow through the shield in order to
equalize the local ground potentials. People commonly have "ground
loop" issues as a result of this type of shield grounding. Also,
ethernet and AC power do not interfere with each other, cabling is
often run together.

The cable your looking at looks like good value to me.

You could use an ethernet surge protector, although these do reduce
bandwidth.

[James Grossmann]

You're right about the shielding -- duh, I'm the one who always
criticizes people who make mic wires and ground both ends of the
shielding... I think I'll bury it deep enough, and I may even use 2"
conduit to cover it, I didn't realize how cheap that stuff was, for 10
ft, Menards has it for ~$2.50! I'll probably use a surge protector (I
referenced one earlier, that supposedly provides gigabit speeds).

Any thoughts on Conduit entrances to the building? I think in the
garage, I'll do one of two things, drill a hole in the concrete floor
and dig under it (though that seems like a lot of work) or drill
through the side of the building and "S" up into it. But at the
house, are there any concerns I should be thinking about? Should I
"S" up in to the house as well, or enter under ground level -- which
seems to open a few water seepage and aesthetic difficulties to me. I
hear interesting things in my reading about conduit being just an
invitation for water seepage, and that the conduit will fill with
water (they say it's not a question)...
Thanks,
James

[Jon Barnhardt]

I've actually seen Cat5 strung from building to building like electrical wire. It will actually withstand the elements in ND for 2-3 years. (Don't ask me how I know, you learn a lot in K12 environments..) Given that this will be the fastest/easiest/cheapest route (conduit is not cheap), you may want to take this into consideration.

By all means I would recommend conduit buried at least a foot or two, but for a quick/cheap install, strung copper will work.

_________________________________
Jon Barnhardt

-----Original Message-----
From: "Eric Wanchic" <ewan...@qwest.net>

[Eric Wanchic]

That's probably a good argument to choose PVC over conduit? On astetics,
I would drill a hole on the side of the house, the same place where your
natural gas, cable, phone, etc, all the utility stuff is stored. I
personally wouldn't put holes in the floor/foundation walls. I think
this is a stem of the water problem other people are talking about. Then
use some foam insulation in a can for the inside of the house (If
neccessary) and then caulking for the outside of the house. You should
be good to go.

On a side question, does your garage have power? I assume if there is no
hole/utility area on the side of the garage, then it's coming in from
the roof?

Eric

[Brent]

Yes, go with grey PVC. On the matter of moisture. Glued PVC pipe
should not accumulate moisture by way of a broken seal/connection.
Open ends should be above grade by several inches so that water won't
drain into them. Having said this, it is generally a good idea to
have the pipe gently sloped so that moisture, say from frost, will run
to one end, on that one end people sometimes have a tee opened to the
ground which essentially acts as a "drain". Thought you might be
interested in this link:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/utility/conduit/underground/house_to_garage.htm

[James Grossmann]

Take note why he covered the end of the conduit...later. I should note
that as well! Bad Things!
:)
James

[Brent]

Hah, I didn't even click the link to the rodent story, that is funny,
yes better seal that pipe end. If you decide to put in a "drain",
I'd
take a cap, drill some holes in it and then cover the end. I had a
gopher burro under my garage foundation one time and it found a way
up
in between my walls, so its conceivable that a varmit could get into
the conduit even through a buried opening.

On Jun 8, 3:36 pm, James Grossmann <ccts...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Hide quoted text -

[Dave McCarty]

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