[Birding-Aus] SLR without the mirror

[Kailash Willis]

While on the subject of possible future directions for digital cameras Pentax is about to release a mirrorless body that is compatible with its existing SLR lenses http://www.pentaxforums.com/news/pentax-k-01-officially-announced.html while i don’t see myself hanging up the SLR anytime soon it will be interesting to see if this is the direction we are heading in

Cheers,

Kailash
> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:56:48 +1100
> From: "Michael Hunter" <drmh...@westnet.com.au>
> To: <birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Nikon superzoom
> Message-ID: <21820382DBB447BAA4072FDE635100E3@UserPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks for keeping us uptodate on the latest electronic wonders Carl.
>
> The new Nikons look absolutely fabulous EXCEPT that they don't have manual focus, which means that, unless they have an absolutely pinpoint, fast, autofocus capability, trying to focus on a bird in the bush results in autofocussing on twigs and leaves in the foreground, particularly at high zoom, the bird itself being out of focus.
>
> I have a Panasonic compact with a zoom equivalent of about 500mm, good, but with a very cumbersome manual focus mechanism, only worth trying if the bird or beast behind branches sits still while you fiddle. ( It also packed up in the humidity of rainforest, but came good after drying out in front of the campfire, so check on waterproofing or appropriate waterproof cases if you want to go there.)
>
> Cheers
>
> Michael
>
> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 14:37:47 +0930
> From: Denise Goodfellow <goodf...@bigpond.com.au>
> To: Michael Hunter <drmh...@westnet.com.au>, Birding Aus
> <birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Nikon superzoom
> Message-ID: <CB50503B.484CB%goodf...@bigpond.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Hi Michael
> Lack of a manual focus is my particular bugbear as well. It's the only
> thing that's put me off buying one of the new Nikons.
> Regards
> --
> Denise Lawungkurr Goodfellow B.A. Grad.Dip.Arts
> 1/7 Songlark Street, Bakewell NT 0832, AUSTRALIA
> Ph. 61 08 89 328306
> Mobile: 04 386 50 835
>
> Birdwatching and Indigenous tourism consultant
> PhD Candidate (Southern Cross University, NSW)
> Interpreter/transcriber, Lonely Planet Guide to Aboriginal Australia
> Vice-chair, Wildlife Tourism Australia
> Nominated by Earthfoot (2004) for Conde Nast's Traveler International Award
>
> > ===============================
> >
> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:33:42 +1100
> From: Carl Clifford <carlsc...@gmail.com>
> To: "Michael Hunter" <drmh...@westnet.com.au>
> Cc: birdi...@vicnet.net.au
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Nikon superzoom
> Message-ID: <AEA80257-8472-4AAB...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Yes it is lacking a few features, notably, lack of external flash
> ability. Lack of manual focus is definitely a minus. also, trying to
> shoot hand held at max zoom would call for a very steady hand.
>
> It will be interesting to watch future developments though. Don't
> think I will be ditching my DSLR for one just yet.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Clifford
>

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[Peter Shute]

I do think that mirrorless cameras is where photography is heading, and it's good to see a manufacturer maintaining compatibility with current and legacy lenses. But this camera has neither optical nor electronic viewfinder, not even as an option, so I hope it's not where bird photography is heading.

I think an electronic viewfinder is potentially better than an optical one if the resolution is good enough, but it's disappointing that there are so many photographers who don't need one at all that manufacturers can simply leave it out.

I suspect that some time in the future the viewfinder/no viewfinder divide may be bigger than the mirror/no mirror one.

Peter Shute


--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry

[Allan Richardson]

The problem with this type of design is that you are using the picture capturing sensor to generate an image on the rear screen of the camera. When you push the shutter release the camera must then switch form display mode to picture taking mode. This is why the compact cameras (even those with an electronic viewfinder) have an inherent delay between the pressing of the shutter and when the photo is captured.

As a consequence anybody photographing active subjects, such as people (especially children), pets, flowers, on anything but a dead calm day, and you guessed it, birds, will likely encounter grief during the photographic process.

Some birds are so fast in their reactions that they can move into a poor position when they hear the shutter on an SLR release, let alone a camera that shares it's sensor with viewing capability.

Allan Richardson
Morisset NSW.

[Peter Shute]

Yes, but I think they'll get there. One advantage of an electronic viewfinder is that you can magnify the image, or just the central portion, at the press of a button. Because current EVF resolution is still way below that of the sensor, this is possible without any interpolation.

I suspect 2x or 3x magnification might let you focus as accurately as a split screen (just guessing), and they'll commonly let you go to 10x. Holding it still enough to use that magnification is another matter. I've used it on a tripod with the live preview on my DSLR, and it makes accurate focusing easy in that situation.

I've also used it on my old Canon S3 compact superzoom with some success even with its low resolution EVF, but just activating manual focus on that camera was a difficult feat by itself.

Peter Shute
________________________________________
From: Carl Clifford [carlsc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 7:04 PM
To: Peter Shute
Cc: 'kail...@hotmail.com'; 'birdi...@lists.vicnet.net.au'
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] SLR without the mirror

Peter,

I think it may be some time before electronic viewfinders will out-do
a good split-screen optical viewfinder.

Cheers,

Carl Clifford

On 03/02/2012, at 4:26 PM, Peter Shute wrote:

[Peter Shute]

I'd forgotten about lag since I got a DSLR. I must admit I always thought lag was the time from pressing the shutter to taking the picture, and that you could eliminate it by half pressing first, but after googling it, it seems there's more to it.

It appears it's quite common for compact cameras to have lags of half a second or more, but according to http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/olympus-pen-ep3-improves-almost-everything/, the Olympus E-P3 has "a lag of just 60 milliseconds. Compare that to Nikon’s official lag for the D700 — 40 milliseconds ..."

Whether manufacturers will bother to keep lag low is another matter, but at least it seems possible.

Peter Shute

________________________________________
From: Allan Richardson [alb...@bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 6:17 PM

To: Peter Shute
Cc: 'kail...@hotmail.com'; 'birdi...@lists.vicnet.net.au'

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] SLR without the mirror

[Carl Clifford]

I am a Pentax person, both photographic and optics, but they have lost
me with the lack of a viewfinder. I can't stand chimping. Even a hot-
shoe mounted viewfinder would make it more useful. It is good to see a
compact camera that takes inter-changeable lenses and an APS-C sized
sensor, though. It should give the 4/3 and micro 4/3 market a bit of a
run for their money.

Cheers,

Carl Clifford

[Carl Clifford]

Peter,

I think it may be some time before electronic viewfinders will out-do
a good split-screen optical viewfinder.

Cheers,

Carl Clifford

[Greg Little]

Peter

Call it a conspiracy theory but I reckon shutter lag in point and shoots is
one of those annoying little things that the manufacturers will retain to
encourage people to go to SLRs.

Greg Little

-----Original Message-----
From: birding-a...@lists.vicnet.net.au
[mailto:birding-a...@lists.vicnet.net.au] On Behalf Of Peter Shute
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 9:18 PM
To: Allan Richardson
Cc: 'kail...@hotmail.com'; 'birdi...@lists.vicnet.net.au'
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] SLR without the mirror

I'd forgotten about lag since I got a DSLR. I must admit I always thought
lag was the time from pressing the shutter to taking the picture, and that
you could eliminate it by half pressing first, but after googling it, it
seems there's more to it.

It appears it's quite common for compact cameras to have lags of half a
second or more, but according to
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/olympus-pen-ep3-improves-almost-every
thing/, the Olympus E-P3 has "a lag of just 60 milliseconds. Compare that to

Nikon's official lag for the D700 - 40 milliseconds ..."

Peter Shute

Allan Richardson
Morisset NSW.

http://birding-aus.org
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[Paul & Irene Osborn]

My common garden Canon compact camera has a dial setting called 'Kids &
Pets' which is supposed to reduce the lag time. It certainly works better
for these subjects than the 'auto' setting but I'm not sure what is
compromised to achieve this.
Paul Osborn

[Peter Shute]

A Google search says it gives you "reduced focusing time", so perhaps it's at the expense of focusing accuracy. I'm not sure if this is the type of delay Allan was talking about.

[Chris Ross]

Regarding the issue of shutter lag in compacts, a lot of that has to do
with AF acquisition time, all compacts and mirrorless cameras use a
contrast detection AF system utilising data from the sensor, that up
until now that has been quite slow. Panasonic were the first to develop
a contrast detection system that was a match for lower end DSLRs. DSLRs
use a phase detection system for AF with a dedicated AF sensor which up
until now has been leaps and bounds ahead of the contrast system in
compacts. The latest Panasonic can shoot at 4 frames per second and has
AF to match. They also have very good EVFs. Here's a review of the
latest Panasonic:

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gx1-1044318/review?artc_pg=1

If you have a compact there are some things you can do to reduce lag,
including activating options like continuous AF, so the lens is focusing
at whatever it's pointed at not waiting for you to half press the
shutter, not all cameras have the option of course. MF also reduces
lag but it is normally so fiddly to activate it doesn't help much. The
problem with the super zoom compacts is that the AF and image quality at
the long end is a compromise, the lens is slow (about f5.9) at the long
end and the image quality is a bit average. The other problem I believe
is that they focus in steps, not continuously. This hidden at shorter
focal lengths by the large Depth of field inherent in small sensor
cameras, but not when DOF drops at large focal lengths. In fact
theonly reason they do what they can as well as they can is the small
sensor, it's a lot easier to design and build a compact lens that is
sharp across 4mm x 6mm sensor than it is to get it harp across a full
frame DSLR.

Nikon have also release a mirror-less "DSLR " the V1 that is reported to
be very good with AF, though in Aus is is pricey and the sensor is quite
small. It can use Nikon SLR lenses with an adapter that maintains full
functionality.

One thing that is of interest for bird photography with micro 4/3
cameras like the Panasonic above is the availability of adapters for
other lenses. Of particular interest is an adapter for the old Canon FD
lenses, that system was orphaned 20 years ago and some excellent optical
quality lenses can be picked up for a song. The beauty of the EVF with
these lenses is that you use the MF assist system quite easily and it
gets around the manual aperture on these lenses by allowing focus with
the lens stopped down as the EVF automatically adjusts the brightness.
Something like the Canon 500mm f4.5L lens which is a sharp as today's
$10,000 EOS lens goes for about $1000 on Ebay, allowing you to get
1000mm effective focal length with superb optical quality for a song.
I have one of these lenses from my film days and was using it adapted
to my EOS DSLR until I upgraded recently to the Canon 500mm AF lens.
I'll be trying to sell it soon as these new micro 4/3rds cameras have
opened up a market for such a lens.

Chris Ross

[Andrew Taylor]

On Sat, Feb 04, 2012 at 01:26:52PM +1100, Chris Ross wrote:
> Regarding the issue of shutter lag in compacts, a lot of that has to
> do with AF acquisition time, all compacts and mirrorless cameras use
> a contrast detection AF system utilising data from the sensor, that
> up until now that has been quite slow.

The new Nikon 1s are mirrorless but have phase detection sensors
integrated into the main imaging sensor. I don't know if this is the
future, but DSLR mirrors are looking like dinosaurs.

I've decided to upgrade the old shirt pocket compact I take bushwalking,
kayaking etc when an SLR isn't convenient/safe - and I'm impressed by
what you can get now, e.g. Nikon AW100, Pentax WG-1, Panasonic's FT3/4.
The Nikon is 180g, waterproof to 10m, gps+compass, VR, 1080p video@30
FPS - $250 grey market on Ebay or ~$400 in Australia. Unfortunately
maximum focal length isn't great for birds - maybe next year.

Andrew