Another rant of mine on ubu-users
Cybe R. Wizard
Concerning the moderators and off-topic posts I had this to say:
----------
I've seen it too many times now.
Where the heck are the 'moderators' when people top post and send in
HTML, both of which are /against/ not only the spirit but also the
very letter of the CoC?
It is well and good to piss and moan about off-topic posts, but each
and every thing that violates the CoC is just as important as off-topic
posting, yet I have /NEVER/ seen moderators doing /ONE SINGLE THING/
about these gross, continuous and egregious violations.
Is that an edict from On High; that you only berate and castigate
off-topic posts?
C'mon, you guys, do your real job or just quit doing anything at all.
Any other way is just unfair.
----------
I've received email confirmation from a busy moderator (thanks for
taking the time out to care) that a discussion concerning that topic
(rant) is currently going on. Will anything change? Will it help? Am
I just pissing into the wind?
Cybe R. Wizard
--
Strength through Unity.
Unity through faith.
Adam Sutler
Ric Moore
More than likely so... but sometimes that ain't necessarily a bad thing
to do compared to pissing in your pants. :) Ric
Cybe R. Wizard
Ric Moore <waywa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/01/2012 12:03 PM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
...
> >
> > I've received email confirmation from a busy moderator (thanks for
> > taking the time out to care) that a discussion concerning that topic
> > (rant) is currently going on. Will anything change? Will it
> > help? Am I just pissing into the wind?
> >
> > Cybe R. Wizard
>
> More than likely so... but sometimes that ain't necessarily a bad
> thing to do compared to pissing in your pants. :) Ric
>
But it lacks that warm comfortable feeling.
Michael Haney
<cybe_r...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 22:26:22 -0500
> Ric Moore <waywa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 02/01/2012 12:03 PM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> ...
>
>> >
>> > I've received email confirmation from a busy moderator (thanks for
>> > taking the time out to care) that a discussion concerning that topic
>> > (rant) is currently going on. Will anything change? Will it
>> > help? Am I just pissing into the wind?
>> >
>> > Cybe R. Wizard
>>
>> More than likely so... but sometimes that ain't necessarily a bad
>> thing to do compared to pissing in your pants. :) Ric
>>
> But it lacks that warm comfortable feeling.
>
I see what you did there. ;)
After what happened to Sounder I've pretty much given up any hope for
lists.ubuntu.com. Its become clear to me that Canonical would rather
that the lists went away. I can't fathom why they've decided to do
this but I have a theory. From what I hear us...@lists.ubuntu.com is
next on the chopping block.
Here's my theory, Canonical is making a very strong comercial push
with Ubuntu tablets and Ubuntu TV. They are very serious about doing
this. Their CES 2012 experience has shown them that these's enormous
interest in Ubuntu on these devices. Therefore, I think Canonical is
trying to weed the undesirables out of the flock, meaning the Linux
purists and elitists. I really do think they're wanting to throw these
guys under the bus. In my own experience, as somewhat of a newbie to
Linux, I've felt a great deal of resentment towards me by this group.
And, I've often witnessed very negative attitudes being focused
towards other newbies by the same people. In blogs I've often heard
the group described as being of the mind that LInux is their own
personal playground and they don't want to share.
If they want to make it in the mainstream consumer electronics market,
Canonical can't afford to have a group in their camp that has an
opposing agenda. That's what I think is going on.
--
Michael "TheZorch" Haney
https://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/
IP Protectionism is OUT OF CONTROL, call your Congressman now and tell
them its not their job to save the failing business model of a movie
and music industry that refuses to adapt to an evolving market.
Break some Windows, bring freedom to your PC. www.ubuntu.com
Cybe R. Wizard
Michael Haney <thez...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've often heard
> the group described as being of the mind that LInux is their own
> personal playground and they don't want to share.
I'm solidly in that camp with this caveat; I wish more folks would be
willing to truly /learn/ GNU/Linux and I would heartily welcome /those/
people. If they just wish a Winduhs replacement, let them buy Macs.
>
> If they want to make it in the mainstream consumer electronics market,
> Canonical can't afford to have a group in their camp that has an
> opposing agenda. That's what I think is going on.
I think you are exactly right. Ubuntu is, so far, not making Canonical
very much money.
What a shame that they can't handle the very ones who made their
success so possible.
It's much like disowning your own children if they start to think for
themselves.
"I'm your Mom unless you start to criticize anything I may do."
/BAD/ mommy, Ubuntu!
Avi Greenbury
> After what happened to Sounder I've pretty much given up any hope for
> lists.ubuntu.com. Its become clear to me that Canonical would rather
> that the lists went away. I can't fathom why they've decided to do
> this but I have a theory. From what I hear us...@lists.ubuntu.com is
> next on the chopping block.
They've itemised what's next on the chopping block and it's neither
us...@lists.ubuntu.com nor ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
> Therefore, I think Canonical is trying to weed the undesirables out
> of the flock, meaning the Linux purists and elitists.
Yeah, hence their sponsorship of Freenode. Even what they're saying
about moderation disagrees somewhat with that theory - removing general
chit-chat hardly creates an environmnet that attracts people who aren't
into the techy bits of Linux.
> In my own experience, as somewhat of a newbie to Linux, I've felt a
> great deal of resentment towards me by this group.
I'd agree that this is a problem Ubuntu has. It's got two extremes - on
the one hand there's an expectation that most people who are new to
Ubuntu are also new to Linux, and on the other there's the problem that
most people who use Ubuntu seem to be new to Linux.
> And, I've often witnessed very negative attitudes being focused
> towards other newbies by the same people. In blogs I've often heard
> the group described as being of the mind that LInux is their own
> personal playground and they don't want to share.
I've not come across that. I've frequently come across frutstration at
the newbie-focus of Ubuntu getting in the way of doing things, or in
the way of explaining things. If you produce something that works on
Ubuntu you suddenly get a massive userbase but a vastly larger support
burden.
> If they want to make it in the mainstream consumer electronics market,
> Canonical can't afford to have a group in their camp that has an
> opposing agenda. That's what I think is going on.
Why not? I hardly think that removing these dissenting opinions from
the lists, or even all Ubuntu support channels, is going to make a dent
in the obligatory mass of complaints about anything that changes
between Ubuntu releases.
--
Avi
Avi Greenbury
> Where the heck are the 'moderators' when people top post and send in
> HTML, both of which are /against/ not only the spirit but also the
> very letter of the CoC?
The code of conduct mentions neither HTML nor top posting.
The list guidelines are guidelines, not rules.
> It is well and good to piss and moan about off-topic posts, but each
> and every thing that violates the CoC is just as important as
> off-topic posting, yet I have /NEVER/ seen moderators doing /ONE
> SINGLE THING/ about these gross, continuous and egregious violations.
That's because they're not violations.
> Is that an edict from On High; that you only berate and castigate
> off-topic posts?
There are no edicts from on high.
> C'mon, you guys, do your real job or just quit doing anything at all.
Our 'real job' is to respond to what the userbase want. Generally, when
people complain, it's about off-topic threads rather than top-posting
or HTML mail.
I'm intrigued, though, I've never noticed an HTML email to the list and
I use claws, too. What have you done to it to make these mails so hard
to read?
> Any other way is just unfair.
No. We'll always prioritise, and we'll always get those priorities
wrong in some people's opinions. We'll also, generally, be
mildly inconsistent because we're not all the same person.
> I've received email confirmation from a busy moderator (thanks for
> taking the time out to care) that a discussion concerning that topic
> (rant) is currently going on. Will anything change? Will it help?
It's not likely to. The current consensus is that we'll mention it to
users if we're replying to the post and it's particularly egregious, as
we might for bottom posted mail that's not snipped, but that's how it
was before. Like I say, nobody else seems to have minded,
> Am I just pissing into the wind?
Yes.
--
Avi
Michael Haney
Ubuntu One and the Music Store where the first signs that told me
Canonical wants to turn Ubuntu into a money maker. They're going to
use the Gillette Strategy, as personally I call it.
Back in the day, WAY BACK, Gillette "gave away" razors for free and
sold refills for the blades. It turned a small home-grown business
into a multi-million dollar corporation in a very short period of
time. Some call it the Free Business Model. Trent Reznor calls it
Connect with Fans+Reason to Buy (CwF+RtB) in the music biz. Korean
game developers used this strategy with MMOs such as Kal Online,
Martial Heroes, Maple Story, and etc. Its now called the Free to Play
Model, and its sweeping the MMO Industry like a California Wildfire!
Nearly all of the long running, incumbent MMOs, have either moved to
this model or are making the move (Lineage II and Everquest 2 are the
latest to make the shift). They give away the game for free, and make
money selling vanity items and temporary power up in an in game store.
Goto any grocery store, or pharmacy (called a chemist in the UK) and
you will see a section where you can buy cards with points you can
spend in those in-game stores. The local Target store sells cards of
Maple Story, Outsparks various free MMOs, and more.
Basically, Canonical will continue to give Ubuntu away for free, and
the way they'll make money is by selling services such as Ubuntu One
cloud storage, the Ubuntu Music Store, technical support (which
they've already started doing for the enterprise), and software sales
in the Ubuntu Software Center. Very soon there will be sales of
hardware with Ubuntu installed, such as smart TVs, tablets, and even
cell phones. They have the potential to make a lot of money from these
comercial partnerships.
Its no wonder that they want to get rid of dissension in their ranks,
never-mind that it was those same people who were responsible for
getting them to where they are now. This isn't anything new, shit like
this has happened before.
Same shit, different company.
Avi Greenbury
> Ubuntu One and the Music Store where the first signs that told me
> Canonical wants to turn Ubuntu into a money maker. They're going to
> use the Gillette Strategy, as personally I call it.
You didn't infer that from the pretty explicit statements that
Canonical is for-profit company in aim if not yet practice since at
least shortly after its inception?
Making money out of Ubuntu and/or ancillary services was always the
plan and nobody's ever tried to say otherwise.
--
Avi
Cybe R. Wizard
Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
> They've itemised what's next on the chopping block and it's neither
> us...@lists.ubuntu.com nor ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
Is there a site which details this? I'm interested.
Michael Haney
That's true. Its just some people are against the idea, though they
are thankfully in the minority.
Canonical makes money through enterprise services, which include
technical support, training, and consultant work. They also offer
similar services to consumers, and have OEM engineering services for
hardware vendors. They haven't started raking in the cash like Red Hat
has, but they're well on their way to getting there.
@Wizard
I'd heard somewhere that they were going to cut
ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com. They were a credible source. Either the
info was wrong or they decided not to cut it after all. Last I heard
it was going away. It might have been on Linux Today or Ubuntu Geek
where I saw it.
Avi Greenbury
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:27:26 +0000
> Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
>
> > They've itemised what's next on the chopping block and it's neither
> > us...@lists.ubuntu.com nor ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
>
> Is there a site which details this? I'm interested.
Yeah, the announcement following UDS:
http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5598
--
Avi
Cybe R. Wizard
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:07:14 +0000
Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:27:26 +0000
> > Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
> >
> > > They've itemised what's next on the chopping block and it's
> > > neither us...@lists.ubuntu.com nor ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
> >
> > Is there a site which details this? I'm interested.
>
> Yeah, the announcement following UDS:
>
> http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5598
>
OMG, where to begin?
princessleia.com? Princess Leia? Really? How professional is that?
Does Ubuntu/Canonical/Community Council now post such meaningful subject
matter on the blogs of individual Council members? Isn't there an
official notification area? How are interested people such as yours
truly to find these things? ...or is it 'hidden' on purpose in keeping
with 'transparency'?
From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (26 July 2010) [foldoc]:
transparent
1. <jargon> Not visible, hidden; said of a system which
functions in a manner not evident to the user.
That post of hers was on Jan. 5 of this year and states that there were
only two weeks to contact Elisabeth (the Princess!) if there were
reasons to save any one of the lists. That's three days shy of a month
ago.
One might reasonably assume the two weeks indicated a deadline after
which the lists would naturally go away. A quite short time for a
world-wide mailing list which may not be checked that often, but, OK.
The lists are still there on https://lists.ubuntu.com/ with the
exception of ubuntu-server-arm, ubuntu-motu-p2p and
ubuntu-bugsquad-announce.
Were all the rest kept due to objections of members? That's pretty
strange considering:
locoteams-dev (last and only posts in Nov 2008)
ubuntu-training-support (last post Sep 2008)
xubuntu-bugs (no posts ever)
ubuntu-patches (no posts ever)
ubuntu-mirrors-announce (one post per year on average…)
ubuntu-jobs (two posts per year)
Was the list-removal post or its intent not really meant or is it still
pending attention?
Either way, the lack of attention to completion of this task
(list removal) might cause one to wonder if anything is done on time
with the exception of releases. Once again, how professional is that,
especially in view of the fact that her space on the ubuntu wiki
states, "Worked with dholbach on the Council to collect and make sure
tasks aren't missed?"
I guess that, "new contributors looking for a mailing lists (sic) to
join... may (still) find it confusing or discouraging..."
Perhaps the young lady is overworked/overextended? Difficult to
understand since, while already a Community Council member, she has
voluntarily joined 5 separate teams since last September:
https://launchpad.net/~lyz
Man, it sure didn't work that way when the PTB wanted Sounder gone!
All in all it points up what I've often said; the leadership of Ubuntu
have lost most of their control through trying to do too much too
fast. I suppose it is just to make a buck on the backs of
volunteers, but that makes it worse, not better.
Truly, it seems to me that Ubuntu is being run by kids without much of a
clue.
Color me unimpressed.
Cybe R. Wizard
wrong to Cc: this to the ubuntu-users list as it is concerning
'technical support." therefore, I /am/ Cc:ing it back there, too.
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:38:24 +0000
Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> > Where the heck are the 'moderators' when people top post and send in
> > HTML, both of which are /against/ not only the spirit but also the
> > very letter of the CoC?
>
> The code of conduct mentions neither HTML nor top posting.
I beg your pardon; I referenced the mailing list guidelines, not the
CofC. My bad. I do, though, see that you understood my intent if not
my actual wording. Thanks for that.
>
> The list guidelines are guidelines, not rules.
Then why bother yourselves with OT or with any of it at all?
Ubuntu-users got on just fine for years without active moderation. Now
you tell me that moderation isn't really needed? ...so soon after
beginning active moderation? Strange, isn't it?
To me, is seems not just strange, but pretty disingenuous.
>
> > It is well and good to piss and moan about off-topic posts, but each
> > and every thing that violates the CoC is just as important as
> > off-topic posting, yet I have /NEVER/ seen moderators doing /ONE
> > SINGLE THING/ about these gross, continuous and egregious
> > violations.
>
> That's because they're not violations.
It depends upon your definition. If it invites moderation it is a
violation of /something/ and still is a double standard if one
'guideline' is moderated and another is not.
>
> > Is that an edict from On High; that you only berate and castigate
> > off-topic posts?
>
> There are no edicts from on high.
Do you mean that, "there is no cabal?" ;-]
>
> > C'mon, you guys, do your real job or just quit doing anything at
> > all.
>
> Our 'real job' is to respond to what the userbase want. Generally,
> when people complain, it's about off-topic threads rather than
> top-posting or HTML mail.
I was given to understand that moderation was to enforce the 'rules'
that aren't really rules, but only guidelines. Must I really delve
into the archives to back this up? I'm sure that you remember the
discussions on-list. If one, then the other.
>
> I'm intrigued, though, I've never noticed an HTML email to the list
> and I use claws, too. What have you done to it to make these mails so
> hard to read?
I see by the message pane right hand sidebar that they are HTML. It
isn't a case of /my/ not being able to read them. It is a case of:
"Avoid sending emails in HTML format, if possible. (and it is always
possible) Some people may find it more difficult to read or reply to
these emails. Also, HTML email takes up more space, so people with
restricted Internet access will be happier to receive plain text
emails."
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
>
> > Any other way is just unfair.
>
> No. We'll always prioritise, and we'll always get those priorities
> wrong in some people's opinions. We'll also, generally, be
> mildly inconsistent because we're not all the same person.
I'm not asking that you do this because it is my opinion that you
should. I ask it because to do otherwise is plainly not fair in view
of the guidelines in
(http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists) Ubuntu's own
words.
>
> > I've received email confirmation from a busy moderator (thanks for
> > taking the time out to care) that a discussion concerning that topic
> > (rant) is currently going on. Will anything change? Will it help?
>
> It's not likely to. The current consensus is that we'll mention it to
> users if we're replying to the post and it's particularly egregious,
> as we might for bottom posted mail that's not snipped, but that's how
> it was before. Like I say, nobody else seems to have minded,
You mean that no one else has complained/mentioned it. That isn't too
difficult to understand because, if it isn't on topic, one might
receive moderation. In other words, many may fear reprisal.
>
> > Am I just pissing into the wind?
>
> Yes.
>
Ah, well, I'm used to a damp face by now.
Avi Greenbury
> As the bikeshed is a public mailing list I don't feel as if it is
> wrong to Cc: this to the ubuntu-users list as it is concerning
> 'technical support." therefore, I /am/ Cc:ing it back there, too.
This is not technical support in any sense of the term. Please don't
spam the ubuntu-users list with your responses to it.
--
Avi
Avi Greenbury
> > http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5598
> >
> OMG, where to begin?
>
> princessleia.com? Princess Leia? Really? How professional is that?
>
> Does Ubuntu/Canonical/Community Council now post such meaningful
> subject matter on the blogs of individual Council members? Isn't
> there an official notification area?
I gather the lists were mailed individually. I'm not really sure this
is something that merits particularly widespread public notification
except, perhaps, to those people still surprised by the closure of
sounder. But, even then, that's self-appointed.
> How are interested people such as yours truly to find these
> things? ...or is it 'hidden' on purpose in keeping with
> 'transparency'?
The decisions are logged in the meeting logs[0], there was much talk
about it at the time.
> From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (26 July 2010) [foldoc]:
>
> transparent
> 1. <jargon> Not visible, hidden; said of a system which
> functions in a manner not evident to the user.
It's pretty easy to watch the inner workings of ubuntu's community.
It's also not all that riveting.
> One might reasonably assume the two weeks indicated a deadline after
> which the lists would naturally go away. A quite short time for a
> world-wide mailing list which may not be checked that often, but, OK.
>
> The lists are still there on https://lists.ubuntu.com/ with the
> exception of ubuntu-server-arm, ubuntu-motu-p2p and
> ubuntu-bugsquad-announce.
>
> Were all the rest kept due to objections of members?
I don't know. those were simply the candidates. I imagine there was
later discussion but I can't say for sure. Like I say, it's pretty easy
to simply read what was discussed in the meetings.
> Man, it sure didn't work that way when the PTB wanted Sounder gone!
PTB?
> All in all it points up what I've often said; the leadership of Ubuntu
> have lost most of their control through trying to do too much too
> fast. I suppose it is just to make a buck on the backs of
> volunteers, but that makes it worse, not better.
I'm amused that it's now a bad thing that they've not closed some
mailing lists.
--
Avi
[0] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/05/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t17:04
W. Scott Lockwood III
> From: bike...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bike...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Avi Greenbury
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:26 AM
> To: bike...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Another rant of mine on ubu-users
[snip]
> > Man, it sure didn't work that way when the PTB wanted Sounder gone!
>
> PTB?
PTB == Powers That Be.
--
W. Scott Lockwood III
Cybe R. Wizard
Absolute nonsense. It /is/ a technical question:
cybe@wizardstower:~$ dict technical
From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]:
technical
adj 1: of or relating to technique or proficiency in a practical
skill; "his technical innovation was his brushwork"; "the
technical dazzle of her dancing" [syn: {technical},
{proficient}]
(read that "practical skill" as posting correctly according
to /UBUNTU's/ 'guidelines')
<snip>
4: of or relating to or requiring special knowledge to be
understood; "technical terminology"; "a technical report";
"technical language" [syn: {technical}, {expert}]
Please don't let being a moderator lead you to blindness.
...and how about my actual points raised? Do you not have any
recourse except to silence them, too? I believe Ubuntu users have a
right to be informed, don't you? Or is user information to come only
from 'official' sources?
Avi Greenbury
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:05:18 +0000
> Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
>
> > Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> >
> > > As the bikeshed is a public mailing list I don't feel as if it is
> > > wrong to Cc: this to the ubuntu-users list as it is concerning
> > > 'technical support." therefore, I /am/ Cc:ing it back there, too.
> >
> > This is not technical support in any sense of the term. Please don't
> > spam the ubuntu-users list with your responses to it.
> >
> Absolute nonsense. It /is/ a technical question:
It might be technical in nature, I suppose. It is not Ubuntu technical
support.
> ...and how about my actual points raised? Do you not have any
> recourse except to silence them, too? I believe Ubuntu users have a
> right to be informed, don't you? Or is user information to come only
> from 'official' sources?
Well, since my responding on here results in your replies hitting
ubuntu-user, I think I'd rather simply not reply than involve myself in
spamming that list with half a semantic discussion.
--
Avi
Cybe R. Wizard
Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
...in response to my asking:
> Or is user information to come only
> > from 'official' sources?
>
> Well, since my responding on here results in your replies hitting
> ubuntu-user, I think I'd rather simply not reply than involve myself
> in spamming that list with half a semantic discussion.
"Yes," then, to the question above?
W. Scott Lockwood III
> From: ubuntu-use...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-users-
> bou...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Basil Chupin
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:02 AM
> To: ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Another rant of mine on ubu-users
>
> If you are going to quote then quote correctly and don't deliberately wipe
> out text and then point at me when you write your "from high above"
> pronouncements.
>
> What *I* wrote WAS perfectly technical and it alerts people about
something
> which may well affect everyone using this mail list - but you deleted
that,
> didn't you?
War is peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ketchup is a Vegetable.
W. Scott Lockwood III
> From: bike...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bike...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Avi Greenbury
> To: bike...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Another rant of mine on ubu-users
ubuntu-user,
> I think I'd rather simply not reply than involve myself in spamming that
list
> with half a semantic discussion.
Translation: I have decided not to respond despite being wrong, because
being a moderator somehow makes me right, no matter what.
Cybe R. Wizard
Exactly my own thought.
Michael Haney
W. Scott Lockwood III
> From: bike...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bike...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Michael Haney
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:59 AM
> To: bike...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Another rant of mine on ubu-users
> >> Translation: I have decided not to respond despite being wrong,
> >> because being a moderator somehow makes me right, no matter what.
> > Exactly my own thought.
> Now you know why I've given hope up for lists.ubuntu.com.
Sadly, I think you're right. I'm now just waiting for it to implode.
Michael Haney
This crap usually happens when a company goes corporate and they start
smelling money. I know companies are in business to make money, but
making decisions that are good for the bottom line aren't always the
best choices. There's almost always a major disconnect between large
companies and their customers. Its worse for corporations who make
decisions to please their investors, but those decisions are not
always the best for their customers. Why do you think so many people
have such negative attitudes towards large, impersonal corporations?
You need to balance out profit verses customer loyalty & satisfaction.
For all the douchbaggy shit Apple does, they offer their customers
absolutely outstanding customer and technical support. Sometimes you
need to sacrifice making a few more bucks to make a customer happy in
order to build loyalty and to keep that loyalty. Business schools
don't teach this, but those companies that follow this philosophy make
money hand-over-fist.
That's why Mystic Island Solutions, LLC. is never going to ever do an
IPO. We don't want to loose sight of what's most important, and that
will build for us fanatical customer loyalty.
Ric Moore
> Its no wonder that they want to get rid of dissension in their ranks,
> never-mind that it was those same people who were responsible for
> getting them to where they are now. This isn't anything new, shit like
> this has happened before.
>
> Same shit, different company.
I'll have to hand it to RedHat, back in the Bob Young days. There is no
MicroSoft anything to be found or used within the Corp. scheme of
things. But, some of the online-style Ubuntu Forum lists run some sort
of MS server vBulletin. THAT tricks my pony, for sure. Ric
Michael Haney
An Ubuntu forum running on a Windows server.....what were they thinking?
Better yet, what were they smoking?
Ric Moore
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Ric Moore<waywa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 02/02/2012 11:48 AM, Michael Haney wrote:
>>
>>> Its no wonder that they want to get rid of dissension in their ranks,
>>> never-mind that it was those same people who were responsible for
>>> getting them to where they are now. This isn't anything new, shit like
>>> this has happened before.
>>>
>>> Same shit, different company.
>>
>>
>> I'll have to hand it to RedHat, back in the Bob Young days. There is no
>> MicroSoft anything to be found or used within the Corp. scheme of things.
>> But, some of the online-style Ubuntu Forum lists run some sort of MS server
>> vBulletin. THAT tricks my pony, for sure. Ric
>>
>>
>
> An Ubuntu forum running on a Windows server.....what were they thinking?
>
> Better yet, what were they smoking?
I guess they could just pass that joint around a bit more?? The rest of
us could use some relief from the pain and the madness. :) Ric