Bifferboard Packages Avaiability

[Nelson Neves]

I may recall some old idea of making packages available to download from a official source, so what about if developers could update them online?
Only some would have access to the upload in order to make it a bit more reliable.

system specs:
- online webserver with http, ftp support
- bifferboard new script to update the selected built packages for upload via ftp (developer ftp account required)
- packages would have a specific url for each bifferboard source version, ....v13, ...v14.
- packages wish list (or access to request logs to check top 10 most wanted version_packages)
...

Will this be worth it? Would developers be willing to update the repository? Will Biff have the resources (webserver) and time to make this happen?

Regards,

Nelson.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Sunspot <fgmar...@sunspot.co.uk> wrote:

Looking good! - but lots to do and lots of "gotchas" for *users*
rather than *developers*!

A point I keep making - what is the chance of ending up with a
"distro"?
1) a binary to burn in to the board
2) files for the memory stick

Due to the hated "Version Magic" it would be necessary to include a
full set of kmod files accepted by the particular board binary.
webcam/i2c/sound etc.

Might we get there in the end? I get loads of downloads by users from
my Sweex/Edimax router "distro" page.

I am sure there are many hardware builders who just want a distro that
works - more Bifferboard sales guaranteed!



http://www.sunspot.co.uk/Projects/sweexproject.htm

[bifferos]

Some points:

- We already have a repository location, kindly donated for this
purpose.

- See http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/howto/compile-firmware/packages
Marko started the slow process of finding out which packages actualy
compile
(not all of them do), but AFAIK he hasn't finished this, so maybe
someone can
start from where he left off?

- We have a sourceforge site for the build scripts, and I am happy to
add
someone else as a developer if they are keen to make the updates for
the
latest OpenWrt, so far it's only me and Lurch.

- I can crank the handle on the build myself, if someone else has
produced scripts
which actually work. Building and uploading are not the issue for me.

- The situation with OpenWrt is not really ideal. Florian has removed
GPIO
support from kernels after 2.6.28, (current OpenWrt), so for
electronics
enthusiasts the 2.6.27 is OK, 2.6.28 will probably be OK, however I
don't
have much energy to reapply my GPIO patches against 2.6.28, when
what I would far prefer is to apply them against 2.6.30.1. It seems a
bit
pointless to apply them to 2.6.28, itself already quite old.

- I've already done the (hard) work to get the latest (2.6.30)
kernels
booting on the board - there's a small patch on the wiki to do this,
so
we should probably adapt the Bifferboard profile to use that instead
of
updating to latest OpenWrt, then we will have the latest driver fixes
from 2.6.30 - more wifi and webcams should work with that.

- I am busy making improvements to the bootloader (just finished
network
booting, see http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/biffboot-v2-2).
I also did some re-achitecting to allow Biffboot to handle > 1MB on
board
flash in case that's needed.

- Next I will be looking at USB boot, and that will give us the
possibility
to boot a 'proper' operating system like Debian or Slackware more
easily, since the kernel will have very few differences from the stock
one,
and it can be much larger. I hope this will make it much easier to
get stuff
working under a proper Linux distro, even if some things are a little
slow,
then we can look at what is different between that and OpenWrt if
people
want to go that route. There is still loads of stuff that works on my
laptop
but I can't get to work under OpenWrt, and this is probably just user
space
configuration issues, udevd differences etc...

So in summary I'm sticking with v1.4 firmware unless someone
contributes
the updates for 'v1.5'. If you're waiting for me to re-sync with the
OpenWrt
tip, then you will have a long wait, but I am quite happy to offer
advice on
what needs to be done. It's really not that hard, just time
consuming.

cheers,
Biff

On Jul 5, 11:09 am, Nelson Neves <nelson.s.ne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I may recall some old idea of making packages available to download from a
> official source, so what about if developers could update them online?
> Only some would have access to the upload in order to make it a bit more
> reliable.
>
> system specs:
> - online webserver with http, ftp support
> - bifferboard new script to update the selected built packages for upload
> via ftp (developer ftp account required)
> - packages would have a specific url for each bifferboard source version,
> ....v13, ...v14.
> - packages wish list (or access to request logs to check top 10 most wanted
> version_packages)
> ...
>
> Will this be worth it? Would developers be willing to update the repository?
> Will Biff have the resources (webserver) and time to make this happen?
>
> Regards,
>
> Nelson.
>

[Nelson Neves]

Thanks Biff for the updated news, It seems that you have been really busy and it's nice to know you are going in a very good track!
Getting a 'normal' linux distro running on bifferboard would be very good! I spend enormous amount of time trying to put things to work on openwrt due to the limitation of having just some apps, and even then some of them don't work as expected!

If you are really going in this direction you have all my support (at least whatever I can help, wiki stuff, electronics, etc, you know I'm no linux guru, I'm a C++ developer for win32 that is trying real hard to get into linux world).

Regards,

Nelson.

[Sunspot]

A point about big standard distros.

I have used Debian and Openwrt on the Slug NSLU2
For Debian you really need a USB hard disk since Swap is essential -
not ideal for a robot or battery devices.
But everything has a driver that works!

Openwrt on Slug is more difficult to run (many drivers need a
compile) but it does not need Swap space.

Developers love the bleeding edge! - my "distro" for Sweex/Edimax is
rock solid in what it does on Linux 2.4 (but no webcam or MP3 or WIFI)
I have a "frozen in time" dl directory that people can download for if
they need a toolchain to compile their own C code.
But you can compile slowly on the router - good enough for control
programs!

But - should I admit it? - Blassic basic is great for greenhouse
control etc - no compile - edit on the Mac/PC (built in save by ftp to
the Sweex) - instant gratification! Blassic for Bifferboard should be
OK and help users but I fail to understand the "compile on toolchain"
process for a complex package.

On Jul 5, 12:34 pm, bifferos <biffe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Some points:
>
> - We already have a repository location, kindly donated for this
> purpose.
>

> - Seehttp://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/howto/compile-firmware/...

> booting, seehttp://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/biffboot-v2-2).

[Jonathan Roozing]

I think i would go for a normal distro.
I have been using Debian already on the bifferboard,
but it needed the kernel to be in flash and i manualy needed to supply the
kernel modules. But at least this worked and i had a huge package repository.
I would really prefer to be able to boot directly from usb and be able to easily update the kernel and modules on the usb stick.



--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Sunspot <fgmar...@sunspot.co.uk> wrote:

[Nelson Neves]

Graham,

having a normal distro would required usb pen drive (for rootfs) and hub (if you need extra hardware), but I thing it's a nice trade, I think there should be other ways to compensate the extra power required (if you are going to power bb from batteries). You can always use a better power regulator (switched version with high efficiency), getting some solar panels (for external robots), etc.

Another crazy idea, if your robot will only work on-demand, you can put it to sleep and wake-up only when necessary, this way it would save your battery power.

My main concern would be to get things going an not having to wait on someone for a specific patch, and pray that this person should get this going real soon!

Another good thing, just the possibility of compiling from device would be very nice for normal users (would probably take too much time, but it works without having the cross-compiling environment).

This was always my initial idea, but decided to give OpenWrt a test before making some judgments without testing it first!

Regards,

Nelson.

[bifferos]

On Jul 5, 1:07 pm, Sunspot <fgmarsh...@sunspot.co.uk> wrote:
> the Sweex) - instant gratification! Blassic for Bifferboard should be
> OK and help users but I fail to understand the "compile on toolchain"
> process for a complex package.

You need to investigate dietlibc (http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/), and
compile your application on an x86 PC running Linux.

example:

wrt@cent:~$ cat main.c

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
printf("Hello world\n");
return 0;
}

wrt@cent:~$ diet gcc -o main main.c
wrt@cent:~$ ./main
Hello world
wrt@cent:~$ ls -l main
-rwxr-xr-x 1 wrt users 2660 2009-07-04 22:50 main

That's under 3K, and is statically linked so has no dependencies other
than the Linux kernel. Copy it across to your BB and just run it. No
mess, no fuss. This is x86 hardware, so let's start using this fact,
instead of getting hung up on the whole OpenWrt/Cross-compiler thing!
OpenWrt is great, but not the be-all and end-all of embedded devices.

regards,
Biff.

[bifferos]

On Jul 5, 2:32 pm, Nelson Neves <nelson.s.ne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another good thing, just the possibility of compiling from device would be
> very nice for normal users (would probably take too much time, but it works
> without having the cross-compiling environment).

Once again, the x86 compatibility comes leaping to the rescue! Thanks
to this you can use TCC (http://bellard.org/tcc/) direct from your
BB. This compiler is tiny, can compile even the Linux kernel. If it
wasn't for the header files I think this compiler with kernel would
just about fit in 1MB flash! now there's a challenge for someone :-).

regards,
Biff.

[Tomside]

Jonathan Roozing wrote:
>
> I think i would go for a normal distro.
> I have been using Debian already on the bifferboard,
> but it needed the kernel to be in flash and i manualy needed to supply the
> kernel modules. But at least this worked and i had a huge package repository.
> I would really prefer to be able to boot directly from usb and be able to easily update the kernel and modules on the usb stick.
>
>

Hello,

I would be really interested in knowing more details about what you did.
I need to have the kernel in the flash, I have a v1.0 of the board.

What kernel did you use? Any tips so i can compile mine with the same
options?

About the kernel modules, you mean you modeprob them after boot?
Which one did you have to provide so that debian was functional?
Did you compile the modules or got them from a repository?

How did you perform the installation? Any hints so I can reproduce it?

Sorry I know that's a lot of questions!

[Jerome Flesch]

I installed a Debian on my Bifferboard 2 weeks ago. I took some notes:
http://jflesch.kwain.net/blog/bifferboard.en.html
(I even have a Lighttpd installed on it : http://gamma.kwain.net/ ).
Please tell me if you found anything wrong or not clear.

Hope it will help you.

2009/7/5 Tomside <tom...@reallyfast.biz>:

[bifferos]

Jerome,

Nice site!

The information about Qemu on the main site is out of date, please
take a look at this:
http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/howto/qemu
I have re-tested with 0.10.5 and my patch still works. This means you
don't need UHCI, but you still need the ne2k driver.

Loved the pics, especially the utf-8 one, although I didn't get this:
http://gamma.kwain.net/NON.jpg

regards,
Biff.

On Jul 5, 6:57 pm, Jerome Flesch <jfle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I installed a Debian on my Bifferboard 2 weeks ago. I took some notes:http://jflesch.kwain.net/blog/bifferboard.en.html
> (I even have a Lighttpd installed on it :http://gamma.kwain.net/).
> Please tell me if you found anything wrong or not clear.
>
> Hope it will help you.
>

> 2009/7/5 Tomside <toms...@reallyfast.biz>:

[Jerome Flesch]

> Jerome,
>
> Nice site!
>
> The information about Qemu on the main site is out of date, please
> take a look at this:
> http://sites.google.com/site/bifferboard/Home/howto/qemu
> I have re-tested with 0.10.5 and my patch still works.  This means you
> don't need UHCI, but you still need the ne2k driver.
>

Hm, right. Actually, I saw this page. But since I wasn't planning to
reflash my kernel anyway, I thought it would just be easier to add the
support directly to the kernel used with Qemu. However, I'll add a
link to the howto you gave asap, just to let people know.
By the way, Qemu seems to be able to emulate a bunch of network cards.
None of them uses the same driver than the one integrated in the
bifferboard ?

> Loved the pics, especially the utf-8 one, although I didn't get this:
> http://gamma.kwain.net/NON.jpg
>

Hm, my point wasn't really about the pics themselves :)
Anyway, the text of this pic is kind of ... coarse/vulgar, so I would
prefer not to give the exact translation on a public ML :)
(softer translation: "NO !" - "Just to annoy you" - "[random insult] !!!")

[bifferos]

On Jul 5, 8:05 pm, Jerome Flesch <jfle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way, Qemu seems to be able to emulate a bunch of network cards.
> None of them uses the same driver than the one integrated in the
> bifferboard ?

No, I believe the rtl8139 is the closest match, so could perhaps be
adapted.

Biff.

[Jonathan Roozing]

Hi,

I used this http://www.hwhack.com/network-devices/booting-debian-on-linksys-wrt54gl-a-complete-howto-t866.html

as refference and adapted it to fit my needs.
You can use it as a start and post your errors,
i'll reply my solution.

Regards, MRX



--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Tomside <tom...@reallyfast.biz> wrote:

[Andrew Scheller]

> The information about Qemu on the main site is out of date, please

In which case it might be a good idea to change the qemu page on the
main site to just say "Please see this page on the wiki" instead?

Lurch

[bifferos]

OK, Done. I have also updated the Biffboot binary to v2.2, and
exchanged the old example bzImage for one with an initrd - should make
it a little more interesting (sorry it is not a very complete Linux
system but I did it in a hurry). The new add_kernel_to_loader.py
script now generates an example bootloader config block to stop the
'Config block not present' message when booting via Qemu.

[wisperboss]

I use the Voyage (Debian derived) distribution for other x86 embedded
projects/platforms (ALIX etc.)
www.voyage.hk (0.52 is the latest "stable")

When I have the time I plan to try to make it work for the Bifferboard
as well, if some one else beats me to it; please do, and put it in the
wiki! ;)

Stefan