Long Haul Trucker vs Kogswell PR (700c) for commutourer
J August
summer gap before needing to be employed. I'm living in Philly,
commuting by bike and wanting to do a lght summer tour and weekend
s24Os. I've got a chance to buy the elusive P/R 700c. I'm pretty wed
to the wheelsize because of my existing wheelset. I plan on settin it
up with a NOS Sugino Mighty Tour 50/34 double and a 9 speed cassette
in back. It won't be a full time tourer but the heel strike on my Soma
Double Cross is killlllllling me in my casual commute.
So - which would be a better option if not doing crazy amounts of
touring but also needing the option.
Justin
Seth Vidal
Look closely at some of the problems SOME folks have had with 700c
P/Rs and 9sp cassettes. The kogswell list has discussed some of them.
Also - is your existing rear wheel 135mm spaced b/c both the P/R and
the LHT are. The DC is 132.5mm.
Finally, one nice thing about the lht is that every shop in the
country will be able to pull up specs on them and order them...
-sv
MichaelH
On Feb 7, 12:18 am, J August <justinaug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It won't be a full time tourer but the heel strike on my Soma
> Double Cross is killlllllling me in my casual commute.
> Justin
I rode a dble cross for a few years, and still do in the winter and
have not experienced this. What kind of pedals and shoes are you
using?
Michael
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
hub width. I don't know of anybody making or respacing hubs at 132.5
to fit the numerous 132.5 models on the market.
Anyway, 2.5 mm is easily accommodated on any steel frame with or
without cold-setting. I cold-set a Kogswell to 117 for a 3s hub a few
years ago. The seatstays and chainstays were disturbingly compliant
under minimal force. Shortly thereafter, I did the same operation on a
Casserroll and a Cross-Check, both of which gave the impression of
being MUCH sturdier.
On Feb 7, 6:45 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
Seth Vidal
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seth: the 132.5 spacing on the DC is to accommodate either standard
> hub width. I don't know of anybody making or respacing hubs at 132.5
> to fit the numerous 132.5 models on the market.
>
Right - my point was if he has 130mm spaced wheel that the 135mm
spacing of the lht and PR might be a bit of a hassle.
-sv
JoelMatthews
http://www.brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/
Why mess with the wanna bes when you can get the real thing?
On Feb 6, 11:18 pm, J August <justinaug...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
the frame notwithstanding, I'd still do the LHT, which, similarly
outfitted would be the same price. With all due respect to Bruce and
this fine looking bicycle he sells, there is no better stock touring
bike than the LHT. My opinion, of course. Joel, you've mentioned
before that some of Surly's marketing rubs you the wrong way, but to
describe the most common bike that passes through Adventure Cycling's
Missoula HQ as a "wanna be" is a little off-base. It has been there
and done that, and from a bike mechanic standpoint, my experience is
that quality is consistently high and the design is excellent.
JoelMatthews
Rock n' Road enjoyed its 25th year in bikedom last year. Can't get
any more been there done that. And BG's marketing is obviously and
refreshingly home made.
On Feb 7, 9:02 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
J August
short list due to price and my own unfamiliarity with it. Right now I
could grab the Kog for $225 and a lHT for $350. I'm leaning closer to
the LHT right now.
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
problem with the all-too-common badmouthing of Surly. Surly makes
excellent quality bicycles, with smart design, and great customer
service. Moreover, the Surly staff people are committed cyclists, avid
bike commuters, and genuinely creative when it comes to making/
improving bike things. In the context of the broader bike industry, I
see Surly as one of the good guys.
Angus
see Surly as one of the good guys."
I agree with Jim. Some one(s) at Surly put a lot of pragmatic thought
into their frame design.
IMHO they are some of the best "mass produced" bikes out there. There
are a lot of bike companies putting out frame that are not well
thought out.
Angus
On Feb 7, 11:02 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
Robert Tilley
Robert Tilley
San Diego, CA
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Bill Connell
that differ from the Atlantis, and the complete LHT has probably the
best part spec on a ~$1,000 bike right now.
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
Steve Palincsar
> That's probably true, but there are some nice details on the frame
> that differ from the Atlantis, and the complete LHT has probably the
> best part spec on a ~$1,000 bike right now.
Again, a fairly typical Riv-ish build, right?
Bill Connell
Pretty comparable, i'd say. The Surly has XT hubs and derailers, so
midrange in the Riv parts selection since they default to LX/Deore
level. The Surly's Alex rims are maybe not as nice as the Velocities
that Riv uses, but the Tektro brakes are common to both. I like the
WTB saddles that Surly specs, as a good Brooks alternative. It's a
great package for the price.
Steve Palincsar
The price is outstanding, no argument there!
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Surly did was change the angles a couple degrees, make the tubes
thicker, build in clearance for 4-inch tires, offset the frame in one
direction and the rims in the opposite direction so normal hubs could
be used without the chain hitting the tire, and make the front and
rear wheels interchangeable.
But the dead giveaway is the 2 wheels and the place to sit: classic
Grant Petersen!
J August
the Quickbeam and remove one of the wheels. Everyone knows GP invented
the fixed gear!
But yeah. Only a few posts have been helpful. I'm thinking I'll wait a
while and get a new LHT instead of the used Kog. It'll be my first
"new" bike. Gleeeee.
On Feb 7, 6:57 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
CycloFiend
> Didn't Surly just copy the geometry of the Rivendell Atlantis for the LHT?
I hear that point from time to time, but the numbers on the spec charts
don't really seem to line up -
http://surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker_complete/
http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/atlantis/50-038
(link to pdf of geo chart)
Yep, they are close, as one would expect from bicycles designed to do
similar tasks, but certainly not a copy.
Hard to argue that the Surly isn't a very good value in a db-main, 4130,
TIG-welded frame. Soma's Saga is in the ballpark, perhaps.
http://somafab.com/sagatouring.html
- Jim
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do
it."
Mahatma Gandhi
Steve Lange
> Didn't Surly just copy the geometry of the Rivendell Atlantis for the LHT? If that is the case then Grant Petersen would have done the thinking for them.
Can you cite any sort of credible source for that claim? Seems like a
reach absent any sort of evidence being presented.
I'm definitely a Surly fan, no doubt about it. I have a Cross-Check
and it's been the single best bicycle purchase I've made to date. I've
run it singlespeed, fixed, and now geared and it's done it all and
done it well. Just yesterday I did a 140mi ride with 7,200ft of
climbing plus lots of torrential rain and wind, and it worked great
for me. Back to back 70mi rides the two weekends before that, a 200km
brevet last month and a 300km brevet coming up in two weeks from now.
It does it all and without complaint.
Surly puts a lot of thought into the design of their bikes and it
really pays off in the long term. The only fair criticism is that they
are heavy, which is true, but double butted 4130 weighs what it
weighs... the long service life and practicality are far more
important in the big picture than 1lb of frame weight, anyways.
Steve Lange
Santa Barbara, CA
RUSA #5454
JoelMatthews
> service. Moreover, the Surly staff people are committed cyclists, avid
> bike commuters, and genuinely creative when it comes to making/
> improving bike things.
Perhaps. But it is hard not to suspect Surly leverages its QBP links
to nearly every LBS in the nation to ensure its product gets the good
word from bike sales people over many other worthy product.
Case in point above. Our OP know the LHT but says Bruce Gordon
product is an unknown. Gordon has been building highly regarded bikes
since the 1970s. The Rock n' Road has been used by world tourers for
nearly 25 years. As for creativity, the LHT geometry is close to the
popular tour bikes of the late 1970s and 1980s. No problem with
that. Some of my favorite bikes are from that era. Gordon on the
other hand incorporated a then fairly novel sloping top tube with the
R'n'R yielding a frame that uses less metal, hence lighter than more
conventional design yet has amazing heel (and toe for those who fear
TCO) clearance with fully loaded packs.
BG is a great bike designer and builder and has earned a lot of
respect among the bike design community. It's a shame so many
potential bike consumer know little or nothing about him.
On Feb 7, 11:02 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
J August
you start making remarks about what other people know.
I know all about Bruce Gordon - except that he had an "affordable
frame" now. I'm stoked that he does and hope it's a success. I've
known dozens of people with LHTs at this point - all of whom who have
been 100% satisfied. I _loathe_ Internet know it alls who presume to
hold some secret knowledge that the rest of us don't. To be totally
frank, your attitude is reason enough for me to stay away fom products
you are advocating. Obviously one grumpy egg isnt goin to turn me away
from Mr Gordon's henhouse but that's only because I _do_ know his
reputation.
On a purely aesthetic judgement I much prefer the look of the LHT to
the BLT.
Oh and if you think that products like the BLT, The Riv/Soma San
Marcos, Sam Hillborne, etc aren't a direct response to the incredible
success of bikes such as (and in particular) the LHT you're fooling
yourself. And with that, thanks for those who helped and try harder
next time for thise who used this request to drive their own
agenda.
MichaelH
don't, so wonder if he needs a new frame at all or just new pedals and
shoes. I ride my 62 cm with Frogs and either shimano or keen commuter
sandals. There are certainly reasons to trade up from either DT or
LHT, but pedal strike isn't an obvious reason.
Michael
Bill Connell
fine for a 'cross bike, but on the short side for a tourer. The exact
panniers and rack being used have some effect on this, of course.
Conversely, the LHT chainstays are 460mm, which would make heel strike
highly unlikely with pretty much any pannier/rack system.
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
Bob Sutterfield
Bob Wortman in CT
On Feb 7, 11:03 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> The BLT is the Rock n' Road with generic tubing welded in Taiwan. The
> Rock n' Road enjoyed its 25th year in bikedom last year. Can't get
> any more been there done that. And BG's marketing is obviously and
> refreshingly home made.
>
> From the Bruce Gordon site. They say the frame is welded at their shop in CA. Are you saying they are lying?
The Bruce Gordon BLT
Designed for serious loaded touring, with tubing and frame geometry
that ensures a stable ride.
Versatile - 700c geometry will accept standard road tires, as well as
the fattest 700x45c off-road capable tires.
Frame Sizes: 38,43,48,52,56cm.
Tubing: 4130 cromo tubes made to our design for loaded touring
Fork: Tange made (except 54)
Parts Group: Shimano Deore LX 9 Speed
Stem: TIG welded BG Stem
Gearing: 22/32/44 chainrings; 11/32 cassette
Seat Post: Kalloy Laprade
Racks: Our Racks Front and Rear
Brakes: Shimano Cantilevers
Shifters: 9 speed Dura-Ace Barcons
Brake Levers: Cane Creek
Wheels: Hand-built in our shop: 700c Velocity Synergy; 14g Wheelsmith
Stainless Spokes
Frame TIG welded at Bruce Gordon Cycles, Petaluma, California.
Standard color: Red Wine Metallic
Steve Palincsar
recently, as in the first batch has finally arrived -- there's now a
Taiwan-built BLT. Nobody's lying.
JoelMatthews
> you start making remarks about what other people know.
I was not arguing with you at all.
My point is valid. The LHT, mainly through its marketing, has become
the default example when people mention what is a good touring - hard
core commuting bike. As a result, other good options get left in the
wayside.
> Oh and if you think that products like the BLT, The Riv/Soma San
> Marcos, Sam Hillborne, etc aren't a direct response to the incredible
> success of bikes such as (and in particular) the LHT you're fooling
> yourself. And with that, thanks for those who helped and try harder
> next time for thise who used this request to drive their own
> agenda.
I made no comment at all about the Riv bikes, but Riv and BG have been
in existance long before the LHT. It is completely mistaken on your
part to say they in owe anytying to the LHT.
The rest of your comments are completely out of line.
> > > > > > > Justin- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JoelMatthews
BG is no marketing guru. He is a craftsperson whose stock and trade
is steel, silver and bronze. His blog which is linked from the site
is clear that the BLT is made in Taiwan.
Moreover, unlike most bike makers that hide the Taiwanese origin of
their merchandise with small stickers somewhere near the bottom of the
bike, decals on the new BLT has very prominent Chinese lettering and
says clearly the bike is made in Taiwan pursuant to a BG design.
JoelMatthews
check out the new Taiwan BLT. With a link to the Taiwan BLT page.
After the jump the page reads:
"The New Taiwanese BLT
I was happy to announce a new more affordable touring frame from Bruce
Gordon Cycles. I often read on various news groups that people wanted
a tour ready frame for less $$$. The First Prototype was shown at
Interbike 2008 with much positive response. I met with the people
making them from Taiwan who brought a first prototype with them to the
show. They are very anxious to make a frame that meets my standards,
and I'm very confident they are up to the task.
Since then we made several refinements to the original and are proud
to unveil the final version that is now going into production.
They are being built by a small frame shop in Taiwan to my
specifications. It will have the same geometry and tubing
specifications as my well known Rock 'n Road Tour frames. They will
include 4130 Cro-Mo plate dropouts CNC machined to my design. I will
continue making the racks and Bruce Gordon frames in my shop in
Petaluma California."
Could anything be more obvious?
The one I notice which I did not realize before is the Taiwan uses the
same tubing as the Rock n' Road. That makes even more a screaming
deal, as the Rock'n'Road uses heavier guage tubing than any other
touring frame I have come across save the wonderful - but far more
dear - Tout Terrain.
> > Standard color: Red Wine Metallic- Hide quoted text -
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
then, there was the Trek 520, the Atlantis, and various customs and
small production outfits like BG. If the LHT was available, I didn't
know about it, and frankly I may have harbored some of the unfavorable
biases toward that brand myself. Visiting local Trek dealers, I
couldn't find a 520 in stock anywhere, so I went with the Atlantis.
Now we have quite a variety of choices available for half of what I
spent building the Atlantis up.
JoelMatthews
My concern is not solely with the bicycle market. Craftspeople in
many industries are being pushed aside in favor of marketers who have
lined up large manufacturers who are able to come close to if not meet
the small builder quality level.
It would appear there is no stopping the trend. Still, it is
something of a shame as you lose a level of communication and possibly
ingenuity as well.
On Feb 8, 9:43 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
would argue that the variety at the more affordable, more available,
mass produced end of the spectrum will fuel the interest in bicycling
that will ultimately benefit the craftsman-level stuff.
I ordered a local custom after several years on the Atlantis because,
while it was a nice bike, there were some things about the Atlantis
that I didn't like. It turns out that my custom, which is exactly what
I want, is functionally a lot like the new 26" wheeled LHTs...
BGCycles
On Feb 7, 7:02 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> That BLT seems like a good value. ButBruce Gordon'shallowed name on
> the frame notwithstanding, I'd still do the LHT, which, similarly
> outfitted would be the same price. With all due respect to Bruce and
> this fine looking bicycle he sells, there is no better stock touring
> bike than the LHT.
Yes - the price of the Taiwanese BLT is about the same price as the
Complete LHT if you take away the Bruce Gordon Racks (almost $400).
But, if you look at the price and compare the price of the parts, you
will see that we are specifying
more expensive parts for about the same price - $1100.
Check them out and do the math at: - http://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/
Any Questions - feel free to give me a call.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com
BGCycles
On Feb 8, 4:45 am, Bob Wortman in CT <rwortm...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 11:03 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
>
.
> TheBruce GordonBLT
> > From theBruce Gordonsite. They say the frame is welded at their shop in CA. Are you saying they are lying?
>
Actually there could be some confusion.
The Web page refers to the Bruce Gordon BLT - which has always been
made in our shop.
Actually there were about 200 BLT's made in Japan in the mid 1990's.
They were blue with BLT on the downtube.
After that they morphed into the Bruce Gordon BLT (made in my shop).
Then Last Year they morphed into the Taiwanese BLT's
The New Taiwanese BLT is made to our specs in Taiwan - that is why I
call it the New Taiwanese BLT.
They have a sticker on the left chainstay that says "Designed by Bruce
Gordon".
You may have noticed that my main focus is NOT marketing - so there
are things that need to be corrected on my webpage. I will update the
webpage as soon as I can.
Another point to address was the implication that I copied the LHT.
I made the first Rock 'n Roads in 1989,and they have remained pretty
much the same since that with small changes.
Surly did not exist until it was formed by Quality Bike Products (QBP)
in the mid to late 1990's
The only thing I copied from Surly was the price.
Any questions - feel free to give me a call
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com
J August
Bostonian capped toe, Redwing traditional boots, Doc Marten's lowtops.
I get heel strike with every foot position save putting my heel on the
pedal.