WTF? motorist runs into cyclist
Willie Hunt
Wayne Pein
motorists were witnesses and none stopped to render assistance. I wonder
if forensics could determine the license plate?
Wayne
Gary Crocker
Mark Ortiz
Looks deliberate to me. That car didn’t just drift; it clearly swerved. License no. was ascertained, per comments when I viewed.
I say charge the bastard with attempted murder, plus felony hit and run, and let him try to bargain down.
Riding further left or right is no defense against an act like that.
I would agree that the riders shown were riding too far right when there were parked cars, and not just rolling stop signs but blowing through without even slowing and looking. But I wouldn’t say those errors caused the crash shown.
Mark Ortiz
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John S. Allen
through a stop sign, but the real problem for me is that they passed
several parked cars in the door zone. The car that struck the
cyclistspulled back in to the right just as it was passing them,
despite having an entire other lane to drive in. So close, so close
to being able to read that license-pate number in the video...someone
claims to have verified it with a California smog check lookup.
There's no way the driver could not have known there had been a
collision, unless absolutely dead drunk. This was either ran
intentional sideswipe (but against that, I'd count the damage that it
obviously would cause to a rather nice car) or a case of very
seriously impaired driving --very drunk, falling asleep, people
having an argument in the car, something like that. There's a lot of
heated commenting about uunlicensed immigrant drivers in the comments
on YouTube, though nobody commenting has any idea who the driver was.
No thanks for that.
Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com
League Cycling Instructor #77-C
jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
http://bikexprt.com
http://john-s-allen.com/blog
http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
Mark Ortiz
Agree on unfounded xenophobic comments.
But I still say charge the motorist based on what the deed looks like: intentionally hitting somebody with the car, which could reasonably be expected to quite likely result in killing the victim. Let the perpetrator explain if there is some comparatively innocent reason this happened – but it better be good.
Mark Ortiz
-----Original Message-----
From: bicycle...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bicycle...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John S. Allen
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:40 PM
To: Gary Crocker; bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [BicycleDriving] WTF? motorist runs into cyclist
I'm not thrilled by the cyclists -- well, yes, they rolled slowly through a stop sign, but the real problem for me is that they passed several parked cars in the door zone. The car that struck the cyclistspulled back in to the right just as it was passing them, despite having an entire other lane to drive in. So close, so close to being able to read that license-pate number in the video...someone claims to have verified it with a California smog check lookup.
--
Bob Shanteau
> There's a lot of heated commenting about uunlicensed immigrant drivers
> in the comments on YouTube, though nobody commenting has any idea who
> the driver was. No thanks for that.
club (two counties south of where the subject crash happened), there
were a lot of comments about distracted unlicensed illegal immigrants
running into bicyclists from behind. A lot of that kind of fear around here.
Bob Shanteau
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
Would I be correct in presuming that this is/was a hit and run? I did notice that the cyclists ran a stop sign, then passed several cars in the door zone, as well as riding straight through a right turn only lane.
Herman F. Ebeling, Jr.
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| 01.00.00 Normal Grey Cockatiel (Hikaru) | 00.01.00 Orange Tabby (Little One) |
| 01.00.00 Betta, Red | 00.00.02 Cory Cats, Albino |
| 00.00.?? Ghost Shrimp | 00.00.03 Neon Tetras |
| 01.02.00 Swordtail | 02.10.00 Swordtail (fry) |
| 00.00.03 Zebra’s | 00.00.01 G. rosea (Kirk) |
| The fish are spread out over several tanks, that are setup as Walsted tanks, i.e. “natural planted” tanks. | |
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Live Long and Prosper
___________________ _-_
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Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
Looks deliberate to me. That car didn’t just drift; it clearly swerved. License no. was ascertained, per comments when I viewed.
I say charge the bastard with attempted murder, plus felony hit and run, and let him try to bargain down.
Riding further left or right is no defense against an act like that.
I would agree that the riders shown were riding too far right when there were parked cars, and not just rolling stop signs but blowing through without even slowing and looking. But I wouldn’t say those errors caused the crash shown.
Mark Ortiz
Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who noticed that as well.
Agreed, why is it that so rarely that when a motorist hits and/or kills either a cyclist and/or pedestrian that rarely if ever any charges are brought? But let a cyclist hit a pedestrian "everyone" is out for blood?
Willie Hunt
signs, riding too far right, riding in the door zone etc. However,
the motorist clearly was at fault for hitting them as they both were
riding on the shoulder at the time of impact. No telling why this
happened (distraction, drugs, deliberate). One thing that is good
here, is that the plate was easy enough to get out of the HD video:
"License plate is 3LTK904, verified with CA smog lookup. 1995 Acura
Integra" Hopefully the law will prosecute!
Willie
Rodney Rudinger
Bob Sutterfield
John S. Allen
Leaving the scene of the crash was probably intentional, though.
At 05:35 PM 4/27/2012, Rodney Rudinger wrote:
I hope the driver will be charged with what it is: Assault with a deadly weapon. There was no question that the driver left his or her lane and deliberately hit the cyclists. I agree with John Allen and others however that the cyclists ran a stop sign and may have committed other "violations" of safe bicycle riding.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Willie Hunt <willi...@gmail.com> wrote:
- I agree the cyclists were being "typical" cyclists and running stop
- signs, riding too far right, riding in the door zone etc. However,
- the motorist clearly was at fault for hitting them as they both were
- riding on the shoulder at the time of impact. No telling why this
- happened (distraction, drugs, deliberate). One thing that is good
- here, is that the plate was easy enough to get out of the HD video:
- "License plate is 3LTK904, verified with CA smog lookup. 1995 Acura
- Integra" Hopefully the law will prosecute!
- Willie
John S. Allen
Bob Sutterfield
Mark Ortiz
Actually, people do intentionally hit bicyclists, despite the likelihood of damage to their cars. I don’t intentionally even hit a paper bag with my car; no telling what might be in it. But some people really do intentionally ram both bicyclists and pedestrians with cars or trucks.
We had one case in my town a couple of years ago where a motorist intentionally ran off the road to kill a pedestrian (victim was in fact killed), got caught because he got his car stuck, and actually told the officer who showed up that he did it on purpose.
Next week, in my vicinity, Daniel Burton Wilson is scheduled to finally come to trial after nearly two years of delays, mainly contrived by his attorneys. He head-oned a group of cyclists, injuring six. He faces six counts of felony hit and run.
I know some of the victims, and am bird-dogging the case. According to a conversation I had with one of the victims in the hospital, this guy crossed the centerline and drove straight into the oncoming cyclists, then fled and was apprehended later. He says he was turning into a driveway. Victim says he came straight on at the group. People who live at the address with the driveway say they don’t know the guy.
Some YouTube comments suggest that the fact that the car didn’t hit the lead cyclist more squarely suggests an accidental swerve. I say it could suggest a calculated intent to do as much damage as possible to the cyclist with least likelihood of major damage to the car. Adam Little was hit squarely in the rear by a car. He went over the hood and into the windshield. The car was too badly damaged to be driven. It had to be towed.
Mark Ortiz
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
I fully agree that the cyclists actions before the crash in no way excuses the behavior of the motorist. And said motorist (all motorists who behave like that) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And it shouldn't take some sort of egress circumstances such as drugs and/or alcohol being involved nor statements such as the "good" doctor from LA made after "break checking" two cyclists causing one of them to crash into the back of his car.
All it should take is a driver hitting a cyclist, driver being at fault for charges to filed/pressed against the driver. IF drugs and/or alcohol are involved and IF the driver flees scene then the charges need to reflect that as well. As well as if the driver makes the statement to the cyclist/police/EMS/EMT "I didn't see you/him/her," it should be taken down as an admission of guilt. As isn't it every road users responsibility to be aware of anything that they might hit or that might hit them while on the public roads?
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
I hope the driver will be charged with what it is: Assault with a deadly weapon. There was no question that the driver left his or her lane and deliberately hit the cyclists. I agree with John Allen and others however that the cyclists ran a stop sign and may have committed other "violations" of safe bicycle riding.
Agreed, the driver needs to feel the full force of the law coming down on him/her. Likewise, if a driver or their passenger(s) throw anything out of the window at a cyclist or a pedestrian they also need to be charged with at the very least assault with a deadly weapon, if not attempted murder.
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
There is no question that the driver swerved into the cyclists. On the other hand, you are only speculating that this was intentional. Just what would infuriate a driver enough to strike two cyclists, on impulse, without previous interaction with them, with an entire other lane in which to overtake, and also causing damage to the car? This is hard to explain as due to road rage. I gave a few other possible explanations in my earlier message. Perhaps a police investigation will turn up an answer.
Leaving the scene of the crash was probably intentional, though.
The short answer is that for too many drivers our very presence on "their" road is enough to "set them off." At a web site that several of us here are also on (it's included in my sig) there has been a thread with links to articles on this case.
It turns out that the driver was arrested, he claimed that his car was stolen AND it turns out that the driver has an extensive criminal record.
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
Actually, people do intentionally hit bicyclists, despite the likelihood of damage to their cars. I don’t intentionally even hit a paper bag with my car; no telling what might be in it. But some people really do intentionally ram both bicyclists and pedestrians with cars or trucks.
We had one case in my town a couple of years ago where a motorist intentionally ran off the road to kill a pedestrian (victim was in fact killed), got caught because he got his car stuck, and actually told the officer who showed up that he did it on purpose.
Next week, in my vicinity, Daniel Burton Wilson is scheduled to finally come to trial after nearly two years of delays, mainly contrived by his attorneys. He head-oned a group of cyclists, injuring six. He faces six counts of felony hit and run.
I know some of the victims, and am bird-dogging the case. According to a conversation I had with one of the victims in the hospital, this guy crossed the centerline and drove straight into the oncoming cyclists, then fled and was apprehended later. He says he was turning into a driveway. Victim says he came straight on at the group. People who live at the address with the driveway say they don’t know the guy.
Some YouTube comments suggest that the fact that the car didn’t hit the lead cyclist more squarely suggests an accidental swerve. I say it could suggest a calculated intent to do as much damage as possible to the cyclist with least likelihood of major damage to the car. Adam Little was hit squarely in the rear by a car. He went over the hood and into the windshield. The car was too badly damaged to be driven. It had to be towed.
Mark Ortiz
Agreed, as I said there are too many motorists who see us on the road as being justification for their actions. And think that because they are in a car that they are blameless for whatever happens.
Neal
Richard Wharton
Sincerely,
Bob Sutterfield
John Forester
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Neal
Richard Wharton
Sincerely,
Wayne Pein
I wrote a paper called "The Space Cushion" that you may like. It's NOT
about a cosmic phenomenon, but is IS ethereal.
Don't fret, it's mostly drawings with minimal large font text.
http://bicyclingmatters.wordpress.com/infrastructure/the-space-cushion/
Wayne
www.bicyclingmatters.wordpress.com
www.humantransport.org
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Neal
Hello Bob, John, and All,
Since you are more familar with this subject than I am perhaps you can show me how better to understand the data.
I had occasion to read the Cross study again recently when I read the following post on another forum in reference to a cyclist being struck by an overtaking motorist:
Excerpts:
“While this data from Effective Cycling is rather out-dated, ………………………..
http://www.johnforester.com/BTEO/ECIM6.pdf
On page 7 or so, there's a table that lists the types of bike accidents by frequency, and being overtake is way down on the list (two types adding up to less than 4% of the total).”
Because the 4% overtake data from ‘Effective Cycling’ was attributed to the Cross Study of 1977 and was not consistent with more recent NHTSA values of 2008 and 2009 I was curious about the reasons for the differences.
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/25000/25400/25439/DOT-HS-803-315.pdf Cross Study
I note that John Forester used only urban data (and excluded rural data which is where we triathletes usually ride) from the Cross Study for his book but he must have ‘adjusted’ the data in some other ways to get results quite different from the published Cross Study which shows motorist overtaking cyclist as the largest class of causes for fatal accidents ……….. partly because of the larger speed differential between motorist and bicycle than in intersection crashes.
Regardless of how John parsed his data …… in fairness to John it should be noted that as a probability ………… because of the number of cyclists and number of miles ridden your chances are very good that you will not killed by being hit by a car from behind …………. but if you are killed by a car …… there is a good chance the police report will state …… ‘struck from behind by motorist who did not see the cyclist ......
Motorist released on own recognizance ……’
Excerpts from the 1977 Cross bicycle study:
Page 229 - 231
Class D includes five problem types that occurred when (a) a vehicle overtook and collided with a bicyclist traveling in the same direction, or (b) the threat of an overtaking motor vehicle caused the bicyclist to collide with an object that obstructed the path he would have taken if the obstruction had not been present. Class D does not include cases in which the bicyclist turned or swerved into the path of an overtaking motor vehicle.
Table 36 lists the problem types and subtypes for Class D and shows the proportion of fatal and non-fatal cases that were classified into each problem type and subtype. It can be seen in Table 36 that Class D accounted for nearly 38% of all fatal cases and that nearly one-fourth of all fatal accidents were classified into Problem Type 13 [motorist overtaking – cyclist not seen].
Since Class D accounted for only 10.5% of the non-fatal cases, it is clear that the likelihood of suffering 'fatal injuries is far higher for Class D accidents than for any other accident class. The high incidence of fatal injuries is mainly the result of the high speed of the motor vehicle on impact. About 45% of both the fatal and non-fatal accidents in Class D occurred in a rural area. It also was found that 56% of all rural accidents in the fatal sample and 31% of the rural accidents in the non-fatal sample were classified into Class D.
Few young bicyclists are involved in Type 13 accidents [motorist overtaking – cyclist not seen]. For example, it was found that the age of the 5th centile bicyclist in the fatal and non-fatal samples was 12.9 and 11.2 years, respectively. Apparently, bicyclists younger than 11 or 12 years of age are not permitted to ride during darkness and in the types of areas where Type 13 accidents occur. The median age was 18.3 years for the bicyclists in the non-fatal sample and 20.5 years for bicyclists in the fatal sample.
Italicized notes added for clarity and were not part of original study.
Bold type added for emphasis and were not part of original study.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of (layman) comments ….. for triathletes the percentages of Class D fatal accidents would be higher because than figure of 38% because we are older – and a good share of the 100% total of the accidents in this study involved children and we are not in that group – also we ride in rural areas where about 45% of the fatal accidents occurred (and 56% fatalities were with the motorist overtaking the cyclist (Class D) – then we should subtract out some percentage of accidents because we do not ride at night a great deal ….. also keep in mind that this study was completed in 1977 and conditions have changed somewhat.
A bit more current data for fatalities:
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/25000/25400/25439/DOT-HS-803-315.pdf
Excerpt:
Pedalcyclist fatalities occurred more frequently in urban areas (69%), at non-intersection locations (64%), between the hours of 5 p.m. and 9 p.m. (28%), and during the months of June (9%) and September (12%).
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811386.pdf
Excerpt:
most pedalcyclist fatalities in 2009 occurred at non-intersections.
Cheers,
Neal
+1 mph Faster
Willie Hunt
bicycle collisions.
Willie
PS
This type of crash is much more common:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJfMIGZrlio
:)
Neal
John Forester
Since Neal wants to make a big deal about car-bike collision statistics, I suggest that he obtain a copy of my book Bicycle Transportation, that shows my detailed study of car-bike collisions as derived from the Cross statistics.
Neal criticizes the Cross statistics because the Cross statistics for all car-bike collisions don't agree with the recent NHTSA statistics for fatal car-bike collisions. Of course these don't agree, because the pattern for fatal car-bike collisions is greatly different from the pattern for all car-bike collisions. Neal, had you studied the Cross statistics, you would have noted the big difference.
In Effective Cycling I presented the frequency rank order of car-bike collisions for both urban and rural conditions by three age groups.
When using proportions I typically quote the urban statistics because urban areas are those where most cycling is done and where bicycle planning gets implemented. I omit the nighttime collisions because those are so distorted by the inadequate lighting systems of those times.
I note that Neal considers all previous studies to be inadequate for triathlon riders, but suggests that probable statistics for the peculiar conditions of triathlons can be extracted from the present statistics. That's a reasonable consideration, but when that is done the results should be carefully so labelled that they are not attributed to typical cycling conditions.
On 5/1/2012 3:55 PM, Neal wrote:
Hello Bob, John, and All,
�
Since you are more familar with this subject than I am perhaps you can show me how better to understand the data.
�
I had occasion to read the Cross study again recently when I read the following post on another forum in reference to a cyclist being struck by an overtaking motorist:
�
Excerpts:
�
�While this data from Effective Cycling is rather out-dated, ���������..
�
http://www.johnforester.com/BTEO/ECIM6.pdf
�
On page 7 or so, there's a table that lists the types of bike accidents by frequency, and being overtake is way down on the list (two types adding up to less than 4% of the total).�
�
Because the 4% overtake data from �Effective Cycling� was attributed to the Cross Study of 1977 and was not consistent with more recent NHTSA values of 2008 and 2009 I was curious about the reasons for the differences.
�
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/25000/25400/25439/DOT-HS-803-315.pdf��Cross Study
�
I note that John Forester used only urban data (and excluded rural data which is where we triathletes usually ride) from the Cross Study for his book but he must have �adjusted� the data in some other ways to get results quite different from the published Cross Study which shows motorist overtaking cyclist as the largest class of causes for fatal accidents ���.. partly because of the larger speed differential between motorist and bicycle than in intersection crashes.
�
Regardless of how John parsed his data �� in fairness to John it should be noted that as a probability ���� because of the number of cyclists and number of miles ridden your chances are very good that you will not killed by being hit by a car from behind ����. but if you are killed by a car �� there is a good chance the police report will state �� �struck from behind by motorist who did not see the cyclist ......
Motorist released on own recognizance ���
�
Excerpts from the 1977 Cross bicycle study:
�
Page 229 - 231
Class D includes five problem types that occurred when (a) a vehicle overtook and collided with a bicyclist traveling in the same direction, or (b) the threat of an overtaking motor vehicle caused the bicyclist to collide with an object that obstructed the path he would have taken if the obstruction had not been present. Class D does not include cases in which the bicyclist turned or swerved into the path of an overtaking motor vehicle.
�
Table 36 lists the problem types and subtypes for Class D and shows the proportion of fatal and non-fatal cases that were classified into each problem type and subtype. It can be seen in Table 36 that Class D accounted for nearly 38% of all fatal cases and that nearly one-fourth of all fatal accidents were classified into Problem Type 13 [motorist overtaking � cyclist not seen].
�
Since Class D accounted for only 10.5% of the non-fatal cases, it is clear that the likelihood of suffering 'fatal injuries is far higher for Class D accidents than for any other accident class. The high incidence of fatal injuries is mainly the result of the high speed of the motor vehicle on impact. About 45% of both the fatal and non-fatal accidents in Class D occurred in a rural area. It also was found that 56% of all rural accidents in the fatal sample and 31% of the rural accidents in the non-fatal sample were classified into Class D.
�
Few young bicyclists are involved in Type 13 accidents [motorist overtaking � cyclist not seen]. For example, it was found that the age of the 5th centile bicyclist in the fatal and non-fatal samples was 12.9 and 11.2 years, respectively. Apparently, bicyclists younger than 11 or 12 years of age are not permitted to ride during darkness and in the types of areas where Type 13 accidents occur. The median age was 18.3 years for the bicyclists in the non-fatal sample and 20.5 years for bicyclists in the fatal sample.
�
Italicized notes added for clarity and were not part of original study.
�
Bold type added for emphasis and were not part of original study.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
�
A couple of (layman) comments �.. for triathletes the percentages of Class D fatal accidents would be higher because than figure of 38% because we are older � and a good share of the 100% total of the accidents in this study involved children and we are not in that group � also we ride in rural areas where about 45% of the fatal accidents occurred (and 56% fatalities were with the motorist overtaking the cyclist (Class D) � then we should subtract out some percentage of accidents because we do not ride at night a great deal �.. also keep in mind that this study was completed in 1977 and conditions have changed somewhat.
�
A bit more current data for fatalities:
Pedalcyclist fatalities occurred more frequently in urban areas (69%), at non-intersection locations (64%), between the hours of 5 p.m. and 9 p.m. (28%), and during the months of June (9%) and September (12%).
most pedalcyclist fatalities in 2009 occurred at non-intersections.
�
Cheers,
�
Neal
�
+1 mph Faster
���
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Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
�
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
�
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Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
One report said that the guy was later caught with heroin. I'm going to jump to the conclusion that he was probably driving high or stoned, and in that case, there wasn't much those cyclists could've done, in the lane or otherwise. The driver was DUI.
Follow me on Twitter at: "CycleDallas" and "Whareagle"!
Sincerely,
Rich WhartonUSAC Level 1 Coach since 1997.
Agreed, my (and many others) question is why does it take something such as drugs and/or alcohol being involved for law enforcement/the courts to take these things seriously? Why can't they be prosecuted on their own merits?
Richard Wharton
Sincerely,
Links: Bike Forums Bicycle Driving
Yahoo Groups: Cockatiel Lovers Cockatiels Plus
Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
Agreed, especially when apparently all they have to say is "I didn't see you/them" when talking with the police about what happened. What needs to be done is that when someone hits a cyclist (or pedestrian, or anyone) and they claim that they "didn't see them/us" is that the police and/or EMT/EMS need to record said statement(s) in their reports as evidence that the driver in question was not concentrating on their driving.
Herman F. Ebeling, Jr.
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| 01.00.00 Normal Grey Cockatiel (Hikaru) | 00.01.00 Orange Tabby (Little One) |
| 01.00.00 Betta, Red | 00.00.02 Cory Cats, Albino |
| 00.00.?? Ghost Shrimp | 00.00.03 Neon Tetras |
| 01.02.00 Swordtail | 02.10.00 Swordtail (fry) |
| 00.00.03 Zebra’s | 00.00.01 G. rosea (Kirk) |
| The fish are spread out over several tanks, that are setup as Walsted tanks, i.e. “natural planted” tanks. | |
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Ebeling, Jr., Herman F.
I don't disagree with that comment at all.�
What I do disagree with is using it as a 'half baked' excuse to want to throw more magic paint on the road, accompanied by pylons, bollards, pillars, walls, elevated pathways, circus tight ropes, or whatever.�
Neal inhaled too much benzene on base, methinks.
Follow me on Twitter at: "CycleDallas" and "Whareagle"!
Sincerely,
Rich WhartonUSAC Level 1 Coach since 1997.
��� I agree that it shouldn't be used as an excuse to try and move us cyclists further from the actual travel lanes.� Nor should we as legal road users have to explain why we are riding where and how we are riding (unless it is truly illegal) to other road users let alone an undereducated and overworked LEO who should already know what the laws are that they're suppose to be enforcing.
��� Nor should well meaning LEO's who are under the misimpression that we are somehow acting illegally or safely (even when we are acting legally and safely) should substitute their "father/mother knows best" attitude that sadly too many law enforcement personal seem to be engaging in.
��� As an example Trotwood v Selz case.� Where a LEO seeing Mr. Selz riding his bicycle on (in her opinion) a "dangerous" road.� And pulled him over and cited him for "impeding" traffic.� One of the sad things in that case is that even after the LEO had the law explained to her that she said in court and on the record that if she saw another cyclist riding as Mr. Selz was that she'd pull them over and cite them.
Herman F. Ebeling, Jr.
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| 01.00.00 Normal Grey Cockatiel (Hikaru) | 00.01.00 Orange Tabby (Little One) |
| 01.00.00 Betta, Red | 00.00.02 Cory Cats, Albino |
| 00.00.?? Ghost Shrimp | 00.00.03 Neon Tetras |
| 01.02.00 Swordtail | 02.10.00 Swordtail (fry) |
| 00.00.03 Zebra�s | 00.00.01 G. rosea (Kirk) |
| The fish are spread out over several tanks, that are setup as Walsted tanks, i.e. �natural planted� tanks. | |
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