Hardware Recommendations
Matt Vogt
Abbotsford Virtual is seriously considering going open source and
we're hardware shopping for a linux lab. At the moment, we're leaning
towards a thin client setup (like Dean's @ Kamloops). Any specific
specs to make shopping easier? Any recommendations would be much
appriciated!
Thanks,
Matt
Kevin Traas
Next door here (Chilliwack), we're working to get our iMacs (of which we have *plenty*) operational as thin clients. When it works, it works very well, however, we're challenged with trying to get X and sound working on all the different generations we have on hand.
FYI, K12LTSP seems to have a bit better "out-of-box" support than Edubuntu/LTSP; however, our preference is towards a Debian-based distribution (*buntu) than RPM. There's a lot of energy/inertia behind *buntu right now and we've been hearing lots of good rumours about the pending 7.04 release.
Anyway, a bit off-topic, but... I guess where I'm headed is... have you considering using what's already in place?
Regards,
Kevin Traas
Regards,
Kevin Traas
DeanMontgomery
will be the best man to ask.
Gregg and John wanted 3d acceleration on the client machines to run
programs like Google Earth, Celestia etc.
So my recommendation to them was anything with Nvidia graphics
chipset. Nvidia's closed source drivers are stable and fairly easy to
install.
VIA chipsets have 3d acceleration in the last year but are not as far
ahead as nvidia.
ATI drivers are hard to get working and even then they do not work
well.
We are running a diskless client from a modified LTSP. I'm not sure
if the current LTSP project supports 3d accelerated graphics. The
diskless model uses less bandwidth, supports more clients, easily
supports plug'n'play usb devices, and is less prone to end-users
bogging down the server.
DeanMontgomery
environments. When we started the SD73 project Ubuntu was too new so
we went with Debian. It takes more man hours to get Debian going than
it does Ubuntu. Plus there are some very cool end-user-desktop
features in Ubuntu that are not available in Debian.
Freddie Cash
> We are running a diskless client from a modified LTSP. I'm not sure
> if the current LTSP project supports 3d accelerated graphics. The
> diskless model uses less bandwidth, supports more clients, easily
> supports plug'n'play usb devices, and is less prone to end-users
> bogging down the server.
For those that are wondering, the difference between a thin-client setup,
a diskless setup, and hybrid setup:
- thin-clients are really nothing more than dumb-terminals that allow
users to interact with programs running on the server. Next to no
processing is done on the client, the client just displays the output of
programs run on the server. Everything is run on the server, which can
limit the number of clients a single server can support
- diskless clients work almost the same as a normal client, except that
all disk storage is actually network storage (via NFS). All programs are
loaded into the client's RAM and executed on the client's CPU using the
client's videocard to output to the display. As all the programs are
running on the client, a single server can support a lot of clients.
Initial load time for large programs is increased due to the network
traffic involved, but once a program has loaded, you can't tell the
difference from using it on a station with a harddrive.
- hybrid setups configure the clients as diskless workstation, but for
programs that are too resource intensive for the client's CPU/RAM/video,
they are run on the server with just the display shot back to the client.
Most programs (including the window manager and X) are run on the local
client.
Hybrid setups give you the best of both worlds.
--
Freddie Cash, LPIC-2 CCNT CCLP Network Support Technician
School District 73 (250) 377-HELP [377-4357]
fcas...@sd73.bc.ca fjw...@gmail.com
Matt Vogt
to good use!
cheers!
Matt
Gregg Ferrie
clients available we have chosen a client that Freddie apply calls a
hybrid. It solves a number of issues around cost, usability,
functionality, etc and although not perfect has the ability to provide
3D accelerated graphics, good sound, etc. As well the cost is below
$300 which was the magic number for my criteria.
Case
Apex Supercase DM317
http://www.apextechusa.com/products.asp?pID=4
Motherboard
BioStar AM2 6100 Mainboard
http://www.biostar.com.tw/products/mainboard/board.php?name=GeForce%206100%20AM2
Processor
AM2 Sempron 2800
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_11599_11604,00.html
RAM
512mb KINGSTON DDR-2 667 memory
http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/configurator_new/PartsInfo.asp?root=&LinkBack=&ktcpartno=KVR667D2N5/512
Keyboard & Mouse
Microsoft OEM Keyboard and Optical Mouse.
This would give uses with a brand new computer, new keyboard and mouse
for about $300 utilizing an existing 17" monitor. Teachers at our
district love this box and because of its low cost essentially becomes
an appliance - nearly disposable. In actual fact because it has so
few moving parts it will probably have a much longer life.
Hope that helps.
Gregg
mynott
Well, you have alot to think about. If you are trying to go as cheap as possible then you can use just about any old computer as a client. You want to build a pretty hefty server(s) considering all your clients run off the servers. I would build two test setups. One would be as cheap as possible reusing older hardware. The other would be using typical clients seen at www.disklessworkstations.com and nice new perpherials. You can check out some stuff I have done below. Check out the open source section.
http://www.cust.educ.ubc.ca/tsed/Students03/casey_mynott/etec_590/
Personally, all schools should be using open source. It just makes sense when it comes down to the fiscal responsibility of school districts.
Gregg Ferrie
We have been running thin client technology since 2001 - a long time
in the grand scheme of things.
Although I agree, you can run thin clients with old computers we have
found from hard experience that we are usually facing two major issues
when implementing when implementing Linux thin client. I think it is
necessary to be careful when implementing so that the experience is as
good as we can make it.
1. Culturally people have an inherent distrust and skepticism against
Open Source software for all of the reasons we usually hear,
consequently getting teachers and staff to use it is an uphill
battle. Once you have overcome that hurdle there is another
significant issue at stake.
2. We have found in using CFS computers, for which we have used over
5000 over the past 5 years, that you bring another problem into the
system that causes people to blame the software - often unfairly. That
is introducing really good software on old and failing computers.
Hence when we asked teachers if they had any serious issues against
using OpenOffice, etc. the answer was, no not really, however they
would not use it on crummy old and failing computers. They wanted the
system to be rock-solid and absolutely reliable. Hence our
inexpensive thin client above.
This client is really a thing of beauty because it is expandable,
relatively energy efficient, has almost no moving parts (to limit
failure) and the cost is very competitive. On top of that the
technology is not a compromise. If you look at most of the true thin
client appliances being offered they generally use the Via chip set
(800 MHz with 128Mb of RAM and no accelerated video) which is okay,
depending on what you want it to do. However trying to do anything
really significant like streaming or accelerated video, CAD or serious
graphics is just not possible. By spending another $50+ per unit we
get a system that has an AMD processor, nVidia video chipset, Creative
Labs compatible sound capabilities and 512Mb of RAM. It can be
upgraded to 2Gb of RAM, a hard drive can be added if necessary or any
other peripheral device. As well it is so easy to support and
essentially becomes a true appliance. Additionally it can be
assembled by any reasonable computer store using the parts list above.
For under $300 each, in quantity, a school needing 200 clients can be
equipped for $50,000 and have a better experience than full
workstations running XP and having 1Gb of RAM. If you tried to equip a
school with 200 new MS workstations it would easily run over $120,000+
and you would not have to worry about licenses to boot - not to
mention the issue of support and maintenance.
My personal opinion is do a really good job with the client and the
backend image and you will give staff and students a truly state-of-
the-art experience. Our guys could comment on this but perhaps Robert
who has seen our latest installation could give his opinion. I really
value that opinion as we are not in the trenches teaching but
supporting teachers who are.
Hope this helps a bit
Gregg
On Mar 20, 6:32 pm, mynott <casey.myn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Matt,
>
> Well, you have alot to think about. If you are trying to go as cheap as
> possible then you can use just about any old computer as a client. You want
> to build a pretty hefty server(s) considering all your clients run off the
> servers. I would build two test setups. One would be as cheap as possible
> reusing older hardware. The other would be using typical clients seen atwww.disklessworkstations.comand nice new perpherials. You can check out
> some stuff I have done below. Check out the open source section.
>
> http://www.cust.educ.ubc.ca/tsed/Students03/casey_mynott/etec_590/
>
> Personally, all schools should be using open source. It just makes sense
> when it comes down to the fiscal responsibility of school districts.
>
Matt Vogt
down my research time immensely - thank you all!
Matt
> > to build a pretty heftyserver(s) considering all your clients run off the
> > servers. I would build two test setups. One would be as cheap as possible
> > reusing older hardware. The other would be using typical clients seen atwww.disklessworkstations.comandnice new perpherials. You can check out
Robert Arkiletian
>
> Hi Matt ... after lots and lots of research into the various thin
> clients available we have chosen a client that Freddie apply calls a
> hybrid. It solves a number of issues around cost, usability,
> functionality, etc and although not perfect has the ability to provide
> 3D accelerated graphics, good sound, etc. As well the cost is below
> $300 which was the magic number for my criteria.
>
> Case
> Apex Supercase DM317
> http://www.apextechusa.com/products.asp?pID=4
>
> Motherboard
> BioStar AM2 6100 Mainboard
> http://www.biostar.com.tw/products/mainboard/board.php?name=GeForce%206100%20AM2
There is a similar motherboard made by a division of asus called
asrock with some added features:
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=ALiveNF6G-DVI
-parallel printer port
-gigabit nic
-dual independent video output with a DVI card
It's very new but it's selling for $69 USD = $80 CAD retail (there are
some reviews on newegg) and here is a linux compatibility review of it
from last Dec.
http://www.linuxquestions.org/hcl/showproduct.php/product/3686
BTW do NOT get this one
http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Products/ProductsDetail.aspx?detailid=653&DetailName=Specification&MenuID=46&LanID=9
the nic (broadcom ac131) seems unsupported under linux
>
> Processor
> AM2 Sempron 2800
You can now get the AM2 Sempron 3000 for $58 CAD Retail
--
Robert Arkiletian
Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada
Fl_TeacherTool http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/
C++ GUI tutorial http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/
Gregg Ferrie
board looks identical to the Biostar. I am going to get one in so we
can do some testing just to make sure. But we have found that
sometimes the Biostars have been hard to get in quantity so this gives
us a great alternative and I checked with our supplier and they are in
supply.
Cheers
Gregg
On Mar 22, 10:49 am, "Robert Arkiletian" <rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/20/07, Gregg Ferrie <gfer...@sd73.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi Matt ... after lots and lots of research into the various thin
> > clients available we have chosen a client that Freddie apply calls a
> > hybrid. It solves a number of issues around cost, usability,
> > functionality, etc and although not perfect has the ability to provide
> > 3D accelerated graphics, good sound, etc. As well the cost is below
> > $300 which was the magic number for my criteria.
>
> > Case
> > Apex Supercase DM317
> >http://www.apextechusa.com/products.asp?pID=4
>
> > Motherboard
> > BioStar AM2 6100 Mainboard
> >http://www.biostar.com.tw/products/mainboard/board.php?name=GeForce%2...
>
> There is a similar motherboard made by a division of asus called
> asrock with some added features:http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=ALiveNF6G-DVI
>
> -parallel printer port
> -gigabit nic
> -dual independent video output with a DVI card
>
> It's very new but it's selling for $69 USD = $80 CAD retail (there are
> some reviews on newegg) and here is a linux compatibility review of it
> from last Dec.http://www.linuxquestions.org/hcl/showproduct.php/product/3686
>
> BTW do NOT get this onehttp://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Products/ProductsDetail.aspx?detaili...
Robert Arkiletian
>
> Thanks for pointing me towards the Asrock motherboard Robert. This
> board looks identical to the Biostar. I am going to get one in so we
> can do some testing just to make sure. But we have found that
> sometimes the Biostars have been hard to get in quantity so this gives
> us a great alternative and I checked with our supplier and they are in
> supply.
>
I just did some research myself concerning the prices of similar
motherboards. You guys really did your homework. That Biostar is the
most affordable with it's given specs. However, there are three others
which have ALMOST the exact same specs but are just a couple bucks
more.
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Spec.aspx?ClassValue=Motherboard&ProductID=2439
ALC883 audio
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=760
(K9N6SGM-V model) ALC861 audio
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=AM2NF6G-VSTA
ALC888 audio
They all have the Realtek RTL8201 10/100
Newegg lists these for $55, $57 and $58 respectively. Whereas the
Biostar is $54. All in USD.
(Only caveat with these boards is you need kernel 2.6.18 for the audio)
2.6.16: [ALSA] hda-codec - Add the support of ALC262,ALC883,ALC885,ALC861
2.6.16: This patch adds the support of ALC262,ALC883,ALC885,ALC861 to driver
2.6.18: [ALSA] Fix/add support of Realtek ALC883 / ALC888 and ALC861 codecs
2.6.18: - Fix ALC883 support code
Whereas the Biostar 6100 AM2 has the Realtek ALC655/658 audio which is
supported since kernel 2.6.3
--
Robert Arkiletian
Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada
Robert Arkiletian
DeanMontgomery
> (Only caveat with these boards is you need kernel 2.6.18 for the audio)
>
> 2.6.16: [ALSA] hda-codec - Add the support of ALC262,ALC883,ALC885,ALC861
> 2.6.16: This patch adds the support of ALC262,ALC883,ALC885,ALC861 to driver
> 2.6.18: [ALSA] Fix/add support of Realtek ALC883 / ALC888 and ALC861 codecs
> 2.6.18: - Fix ALC883 support code
Yes we are running 2.6.18 on the client - the "hardware" and "required
software" that Gregg and John give me often needs the latest kernels,
libraries, drivers etc. It is too much time for me to compile them
all as
they are upgrading every month. For this very reason we chose Debian
because
upgrading is very easy. So far, Debian has allowed me to keep up with
the
latest software as it becomes stable for the end users.
For non-diskless fat clients I've been recommending Ubuntu as it is
also
Debian based and easy to upgrade. Ubuntu is much more user friendly.
We have also seen some interest in http://www.dynebolic.org/. It is a
special
Linux distribution for multimedia editing. We have a few multimedia
workstations that do MIDI, multitrack sound, and multitrack video
recording/editing. The Dynebolic's kernel and software are all
optimized for multimedia.
Kevin Traas
Thanks for pointing me towards the Asrock motherboard Robert. This
board looks identical to the Biostar.
These tier 2 boards are cheap, but... that's because they use low-end components, so expect higher failure rates.
--
Regards,
Kevin Traas
Robert Arkiletian
> Yes we are running 2.6.18 on the client - the "hardware" and "required
> software" that Gregg and John give me often needs the latest kernels,
> libraries, drivers etc. It is too much time for me to compile them
> all as
> they are upgrading every month. For this very reason we chose Debian
> because
> upgrading is very easy. So far, Debian has allowed me to keep up with
> the
> latest software as it becomes stable for the end users.
>
> For non-diskless fat clients I've been recommending Ubuntu as it is
> also
> Debian based and easy to upgrade. Ubuntu is much more user friendly.
>
Looks like the CBC agrees with you Dean.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tech/linux.html
Matt Vogt
the green light on purchasing a small (30 client) lab! Starting small
- but a start is still a start right? hahaha.
To order:
Super Case DM-317 (DM-318)
Biostar GeForce6100 AM2
AMD Sempron 3000+ Processor
Kingston PC2-5300 512MB DDR2-667
@ Gregg: Have you had a chance to tinker with the ASRock board?
Considering it, but unsure (including Kevin's 2cents hahaha)... liking
the extra features for ten bucks, but also liking the "sticking to
what's proven and works"
@ Everyone: I've been asked by Don Martyn to provide a list of
suppliers.... As usual, any thoughts/recommendations would be much
appreciated!
Thank you very much,
Matt Vogt
Gregg Ferrie
Excellent news!
Regarding the configuration you have listed, I have made inquiries
about the ASRock motherboard and it is hard to source. My
recommendation is to stick with the Biostar as it has proven to work
quite well and we can vouch for it. We like the whole package, the
case, the motherboard and using the Kingston RAM. That combination
has worked very well. If you do decide to use another configuration
and it works however, I would very much like to know about it.
As well I think you will find the pricing on this combination should
run the district no more than $300/ea before taxes. We are now
getting them around $280/ea before taxes.
Hope this helps.
Gregg :)
PS Please keep us updated!
DeanMontgomery
> I was hoping you could shine some light on the server side of the
> hardware recommendations.
The person to contact for sd73 server specs is Freddie Cash.
We have Dual Opteron 64bit servers.
Here are two generic answers for LTSP, then Diskless.
1) LTSP
All software runs on the server so you need a fast server with lots of
ram.
LTSP supports booting more diverse hardware. LTSP uses different
bootup software environments for each type of workstation: 32bit,
64bit, PPC, etc. then points the login window to the server. You do
not want a 64bit OS because there are several software packages that
do not work well in 64 bit mode. e.g. AdobeFlash, multimedia codecs,
browser plugins etc.
2) Diskless - what sd73 is using.
All software runs on the client machine that uses a central network
hard drive.
Diskless clients require the client software be compiled for the same
hardware architecture. (Can't run 32bit i386 apps on a PPC)
The load average on our servers is very low (10%), this is because the
server only runs file and printer shares. However, when users FreeNX
into the server they get a very fast desktop environment.
For Diskless clients, it is easier working with an uniform chipset on
the server and workstations: e.g. all 32bit CPU on workstations and
32bit CPU(s) on server. SD73 does not have PPC/Mac clients, so we
only have to focus on the 32bit CPU's and software repositories. Our
servers are running 64bit applications, so we had to create a 32 bit
vserver within the main server for the clients to mount their network
disks to.
Kevin Traas
If you do decide to use another configuration
and it works however, I would very much like to know about it.
Foxconn Case: DH-848: http://tinyurl.com/3bckem
--
Regards,
Kevin Traas, IT Manager
DeanMontgomery
On Jun 16, 7:28 pm, "Kevin Traas" <ktr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> DRBL: http://drbl.sourceforge.net
So by the sounds of it your are going diskless instead of terminal-
server.
I'm impressed that you found a package like drbl to help automate the
setup. It would have saved me some time to use drbl package instead
of hacking the ltsp code to become diskless.
Thanks for the link.
Kevin Traas
So by the sounds of it your are going diskless instead of terminal-
server.
Yes, we've been very impressed with your implementation up there in Kamloops. :) We ran some thin-client trials but quickly noticed the challenges placed on a server and network from 10+ workstations all trying to do the same (cpu/bw-intensive) task at the same time. ( i.e. playing videos, Flash, Blender, etc.)
I'm impressed that you found a package like drbl to help automate the
setup. It would have saved me some time to use drbl package instead
of hacking the ltsp code to become diskless. Thanks for the link.
One of the guys at this end found it. I'd never heard of it before, but have been really impressed with it. Certainly useful!
--
Regards,
Kevin Traas
DeanMontgomery
http://www.sd73.bc.ca/district-operations/files/Pros_and_Cons.pdf
* LTSP. (old mixed computers)
* Diskless. (newer uniform computers)
* Fat Client.
The software model goes hand-in-hand with your hardware model.
Robert Arkiletian
> > DRBL: http://drbl.sourceforge.net
>
> >
> > So by the sounds of it your are going diskless instead of terminal-
> > server.
>
> Yes, we've been very impressed with your implementation up there in
> Kamloops. :) We ran some thin-client trials but quickly noticed the
> challenges placed on a server and network from 10+ workstations all trying
> to do the same (cpu/bw-intensive) task at the same time. ( i.e. playing
> videos, Flash, Blender, etc.)
>
Kevin,
It looks like the whole LTSP world is headed in this direction. Below
is a url from a post on the Edubuntu devel list from one of the main
guys.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2007-May/002177.html