Hello People
I am new here - India Web 2.0 scene and Bangalore RUG, been trying to
get a grasp on the landscape here - How is the work environment for
web startups and the ecosystem around it. Its been really great so far
from almost all aspects. The energy is infectious, the market wide
open and a lot of cool development happening.
But I am having a hard time figuring out the talent pool here. For the
most part, people don't really care about what we or other startups
are doing. RoR Coders that we have met so far don't start off with
asking about what we are doing or using or innovating on. The first
question happens to be 'what are you offering?' and we are always
taken aback. On top of that, why are Indian coders working for Indian
companies talking to an Indian entrepreneur quoting hourly rates in
dollars?
I get the economics of demand and supply. But is there no
rationalization and no interest in creating something cool out of
India? If nothing else, then talking about that before the
conversation gravitates to Rs. (oops $) and loses all enthusiasm.
Almost all startup founders I spoke to warned me about the talent pool
and the shortage of quality committed creative coders, but I am still
kinda shell shocked. We are willing to pay top Rs. and maybe more if
the guy/girl is right, but is that all that matters here? Please tell
me there's hope for startups who want people who love their code and
can do more than figure out which is their next project.
I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to
what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in
what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge...
According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining
them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is
getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their
satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
When it comes to finding RoR developers, We must keep few things in
our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first
those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their
relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are
selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new
technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with
little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR
as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It
is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that ,
They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability
only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy
(something to play with) and programming language as something to
enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just
RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you
hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as
technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the
problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this
conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which
influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
As abhishek said, I understand ppl are into RoR for 2 reasons
1. They Liked it when they got to know it (I have had about 8-9yrs exp on Microsoft and appreciated RoR in just 1 month) 2. They are into RoR right from their start i.e. when they are freshers they have been picked up into this activity and trained
So basically what you need to target is the first part... The second part is always.... similar to any technology .Net or Java...where you say "Whats my salary..."
Basically... we have been doing the follow system / work for someone than the self system... Why do you think there aren't many freelancers in India....The culture also plays a role in this...
In my mind..... you will find both... only that you have to identify what you actually need.
I agree with you on all startup founders you spoke warning you about the talent pool and the shortage of quality committed creative coders... I dont believe in this...bcos there are lots of committed creative coders... but very few of them ready to work for start ups... even if you pay higher, you might not get them...as they dont see security in startups... so for start up...get the mediocres... and train them to that level ...and start ups cannot afford doing it... :)
Its a kind of chicken and egg problem...
I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here its all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
Thanks and Regards Satish N Kota Moderator, Bangalore-RUG
On 08/01/2008, AbhishekParolkar <abhishek.parol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to > what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in > what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge... > According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining > them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is > getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their > satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
> When it comes to findig RoR developers, We must keep few things in > our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first > those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their > relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are > selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new > technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with > little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR > as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It > is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that , > They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability > only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy > (something to play with) and programming language as something to > enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just > RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
> Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you > hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
> IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as > technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the > problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this > conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which > influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
> I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here its > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
I am new too. However, I do not feel the discussion is irrelevant (or improper) to this forum. As far as I understood, this is the sole mailing list for both tech and non-tech discussions of our bangalore ruby user group.
- sparkymat
On Jan 8, 2008 1:38 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> As abhishek said, I understand ppl are into RoR for 2 reasons
> 1. They Liked it when they got to know it (I have had about 8-9yrs exp on > Microsoft and appreciated RoR in just 1 month) > 2. They are into RoR right from their start i.e. when they are freshers they > have been picked up into this activity and trained
> So basically what you need to target is the first part... The second part is > always.... similar to any technology .Net or Java...where you say "Whats my > salary..."
> Basically... we have been doing the follow system / work for someone than > the self system... Why do you think there aren't many freelancers in > India....The culture also plays a role in this...
> In my mind..... you will find both... only that you have to identify what > you actually need.
> I agree with you on all startup founders you spoke warning you about the > talent pool and the shortage of quality committed creative coders... I dont > believe in this...bcos there are lots of committed creative coders... but > very few of them ready to work for start ups... even if you pay higher, you > might not get them...as they dont see security in startups... so for start > up...get the mediocres... and train them to that level ...and start ups > cannot afford doing it... :)
> Its a kind of chicken and egg problem...
> I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here its > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
> Thanks and Regards > Satish N Kota > Moderator, Bangalore-RUG
> On 08/01/2008, AbhishekParolkar <abhishek.parol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello abhic,
> > I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to > > what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in > > what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge... > > According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining > > them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is > > getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their > > satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
> > When it comes to findig RoR developers, We must keep few things in
> > our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first > > those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their > > relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are > > selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new > > technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with > > little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR > > as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It > > is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that , > > They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability > > only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy > > (something to play with) and programming language as something to > > enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just > > RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
> > Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you > > hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
> > IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as > > technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the > > problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this > > conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which > > influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
Yeah I agree this is the sole mailing list for tech and non-tech discussions... but what our friend abhic is identifying doesnot fall to just RoR...its for every one...the same is the issue for Php, Python, Perl...etc.,
Regards Satish N Kota
On 08/01/2008, sparkymat <csy0...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here > its > > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
> I am new too. However, I do not feel the discussion is irrelevant (or > improper) to this forum. As far as I understood, this is the sole > mailing list for both tech and non-tech discussions of our bangalore > ruby user group.
> - sparkymat
> On Jan 8, 2008 1:38 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hi Abhic,
> > As abhishek said, I understand ppl are into RoR for 2 reasons
> > 1. They Liked it when they got to know it (I have had about 8-9yrs exp > on > > Microsoft and appreciated RoR in just 1 month) > > 2. They are into RoR right from their start i.e. when they are freshers > they > > have been picked up into this activity and trained
> > So basically what you need to target is the first part... The second > part is > > always.... similar to any technology .Net or Java...where you say "Whats > my > > salary..."
> > Basically... we have been doing the follow system / work for someone > than > > the self system... Why do you think there aren't many freelancers in > > India....The culture also plays a role in this...
> > In my mind..... you will find both... only that you have to identify > what > > you actually need.
> > I agree with you on all startup founders you spoke warning you about the > > talent pool and the shortage of quality committed creative coders... I > dont > > believe in this...bcos there are lots of committed creative coders... > but > > very few of them ready to work for start ups... even if you pay higher, > you > > might not get them...as they dont see security in startups... so for > start > > up...get the mediocres... and train them to that level ...and start ups > > cannot afford doing it... :)
> > Its a kind of chicken and egg problem...
> > I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here > its > > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
> > Thanks and Regards > > Satish N Kota > > Moderator, Bangalore-RUG
> > On 08/01/2008, AbhishekParolkar <abhishek.parol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello abhic,
> > > I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to > > > what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in > > > what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge... > > > According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining > > > them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is > > > getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their > > > satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
> > > When it comes to findig RoR developers, We must keep few things in
> > > our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first > > > those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their > > > relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are > > > selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new > > > technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with > > > little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR > > > as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It > > > is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that , > > > They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability > > > only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy > > > (something to play with) and programming language as something to > > > enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just > > > RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
> > > Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you > > > hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
> > > IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as > > > technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the > > > problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this > > > conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which > > > influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
True, but I feel this is a good discussion and lets not discard it on a technicality. Not entirely related to the topic, but what drew me to Ruby was that it helped me express my thoughts faster (as compared to C/C++ or Java) . So lets say that Ruby is the kinda language (along with other higher level languages like Python) that promotes innovation by removing the burden of coding scaffolding (especially true for Rails right?). Yet innovation gets stifled in the name of business and market appeal. Well, maybe a prime reason is the risk involved. Many would rather code something evolutionary that they know people would use, rather than something revolutionary that has a much higher risk of being criticised/ridiculed, or worse, ignored! So attitude may have a lot to do with innovation as well.
What can be done? Need to think. Will pitch in thoughts as they occur to me.
- sparkymat
On Jan 8, 2008 2:30 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Yeah I agree this is the sole mailing list for tech and non-tech > discussions... but what our friend abhic is identifying doesnot fall to just > RoR...its for every one...the same is the issue for Php, Python, > Perl...etc.,
> Regards > Satish N Kota
> On 08/01/2008, sparkymat <csy0...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here > its > > > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
> > I am new too. However, I do not feel the discussion is irrelevant (or > > improper) to this forum. As far as I understood, this is the sole > > mailing list for both tech and non-tech discussions of our bangalore > > ruby user group.
> > - sparkymat
> > On Jan 8, 2008 1:38 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Abhic,
> > > As abhishek said, I understand ppl are into RoR for 2 reasons
> > > 1. They Liked it when they got to know it (I have had about 8-9yrs exp > on > > > Microsoft and appreciated RoR in just 1 month) > > > 2. They are into RoR right from their start i.e. when they are freshers > they > > > have been picked up into this activity and trained
> > > So basically what you need to target is the first part... The second > part is > > > always.... similar to any technology .Net or Java...where you say "Whats > my > > > salary..."
> > > Basically... we have been doing the follow system / work for someone > than > > > the self system... Why do you think there aren't many freelancers in > > > India....The culture also plays a role in this...
> > > In my mind..... you will find both... only that you have to identify > what > > > you actually need.
> > > I agree with you on all startup founders you spoke warning you about the > > > talent pool and the shortage of quality committed creative coders... I > dont > > > believe in this...bcos there are lots of committed creative coders... > but > > > very few of them ready to work for start ups... even if you pay higher, > you > > > might not get them...as they dont see security in startups... so for > start > > > up...get the mediocres... and train them to that level ...and start ups > > > cannot afford doing it... :)
> > > Its a kind of chicken and egg problem...
> > > I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here > its > > > all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
> > > Thanks and Regards > > > Satish N Kota > > > Moderator, Bangalore-RUG
> > > On 08/01/2008, AbhishekParolkar < abhishek.parol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hello abhic,
> > > > I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to > > > > what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in > > > > what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge... > > > > According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining > > > > them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is > > > > getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their > > > > satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
> > > > When it comes to findig RoR developers, We must keep few things in
> > > > our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first > > > > those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their > > > > relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are > > > > selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new > > > > technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with > > > > little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR > > > > as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It > > > > is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that , > > > > They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability > > > > only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy > > > > (something to play with) and programming language as something to > > > > enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just > > > > RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
> > > > Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you > > > > hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
> > > > IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as > > > > technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the > > > > problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this > > > > conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which > > > > influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
Bluntly, there are people in this for the money, there are people in this for their love of hacking, and there are people in this trying to make a living off their love for hacking. When you fall into the last category, you tend to become rather pragmatic over time. Keep writing cool software for someone who doesn't pay well and soon you'll be going hungry.
The last category is also the best to hire if you're hoping to make a living off the software you build - they tend to focus on useful (read revenue generating) first and frills and fopperies second.
Note that I haven't mentioned the first category at all for obvious reasons. Avoid them like the plague - they're everywhere in India, like a swarm of locusts armed with padded or outright fake resumes, ready to strip any poor unsuspecting employer to the bone before moving on. Oh there are plenty of organisations which fall into this bracket too.
sparkymat wrote: > True, but I feel this is a good discussion and lets not discard it on > a technicality. Not entirely related to the topic, but what drew me to > Ruby was that it helped me express my thoughts faster (as compared to > C/C++ or Java) . So lets say that Ruby is the kinda language (along > with other higher level languages like Python) that promotes > innovation by removing the burden of coding scaffolding (especially > true for Rails right?). Yet innovation gets stifled in the name of > business and market appeal. Well, maybe a prime reason is the risk > involved. Many would rather code something evolutionary that they know > people would use, rather than something revolutionary that has a much > higher risk of being criticised/ridiculed, or worse, ignored! So > attitude may have a lot to do with innovation as well.
> What can be done? Need to think. Will pitch in thoughts as they occur to me.
> - sparkymat
> On Jan 8, 2008 2:30 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Yeah I agree this is the sole mailing list for tech and non-tech >> discussions... but what our friend abhic is identifying doesnot fall to just >> RoR...its for every one...the same is the issue for Php, Python, >> Perl...etc.,
>> Regards >> Satish N Kota
>> On 08/01/2008, sparkymat <csy0...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here
>> its
>>>> all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
>>> I am new too. However, I do not feel the discussion is irrelevant (or >>> improper) to this forum. As far as I understood, this is the sole >>> mailing list for both tech and non-tech discussions of our bangalore >>> ruby user group.
>>> - sparkymat
>>> On Jan 8, 2008 1:38 PM, Satish Kota <satishnk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Abhic,
>>>> As abhishek said, I understand ppl are into RoR for 2 reasons
>>>> 1. They Liked it when they got to know it (I have had about 8-9yrs exp
>> on
>>>> Microsoft and appreciated RoR in just 1 month) >>>> 2. They are into RoR right from their start i.e. when they are freshers
>> they
>>>> have been picked up into this activity and trained
>>>> So basically what you need to target is the first part... The second
>> part is
>>>> always.... similar to any technology .Net or Java...where you say "Whats
>> my
>>>> salary..."
>>>> Basically... we have been doing the follow system / work for someone
>> than
>>>> the self system... Why do you think there aren't many freelancers in >>>> India....The culture also plays a role in this...
>>>> In my mind..... you will find both... only that you have to identify
>> what
>>>> you actually need.
>>>> I agree with you on all startup founders you spoke warning you about the >>>> talent pool and the shortage of quality committed creative coders... I
>> dont
>>>> believe in this...bcos there are lots of committed creative coders...
>> but
>>>> very few of them ready to work for start ups... even if you pay higher,
>> you
>>>> might not get them...as they dont see security in startups... so for
>> start
>>>> up...get the mediocres... and train them to that level ...and start ups >>>> cannot afford doing it... :)
>>>> Its a kind of chicken and egg problem...
>>>> I think this platform is not the right one to talk about this.... here
>> its
>>>> all about Ruby and Rails programming and not about ppl using it...
>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>> Satish N Kota >>>> Moderator, Bangalore-RUG
>>>> On 08/01/2008, AbhishekParolkar < abhishek.parol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello abhic,
>>>>> I also have been questioning myself from quite a long time as to >>>>> what is it that motivates indian programmers to look for innovation in >>>>> what they do... India has a great talent pool and its is huge... >>>>> According to me sourcing good candidates is not as tough as retaining >>>>> them in the organisation. So the problem is two fold, One side is >>>>> getting the right people , Other more tough side is to maintain their >>>>> satisfaction and energy levels to keep them innovating.
>>>>> When it comes to findig RoR developers, We must keep few things in
>>>>> our mind, there are two kinds of people who picked up RoR , first >>>>> those who are passionate about RoR as a framework because of their >>>>> relatively bad experiences with other technologies, they are >>>>> selfmotivated to resolve issues which comes along with using new >>>>> technologies, They use RoR as Hobby. Another kind includes people with >>>>> little capability to be able to appreciate ruby as a language, and RoR >>>>> as something to be passionate about. They use RoR at work because ¨It >>>>> is their work¨ . As an average when I meet candidates, I find that , >>>>> They are not able to question the fundamentals. and this capability >>>>> only comes when ¨computer¨ has been treated by them as a toy >>>>> (something to play with) and programming language as something to >>>>> enjoy. So I feel , this is fundamental problem in all areas not just >>>>> RoR. But I would love to discuss and research more on this...
>>>>> Lets talk solution, tell me more as to what kind of communication you >>>>> hold when you interact with them to find what they are...
>>>>> IMPORTANT: This group is certainly to only discuss Ruby / RoR as >>>>> technology and not about people who use RoR , but looking at the >>>>> problem I am personaly interested to talk about it, because this >>>>> conversation will surely yield certain aspects of Ruby which >>>>> influences adopters to choose it and work with passion.
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