Something Perverty

[Chris Kubica]

Catcher question 2:

At the very end of Chapter 24, Holden says:

"When something perverty like that happens, I start sweating like a bastard. That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it."

What do you make of this? That Holden was sexually molested or something as a little boy? Like by his Dad or something, who is never shown in the book, but spoken of ominously several times?

This is also the first reread where I get vibes that Holden is an in-the-closet homosexual.

I love rereads!

Chris

[James Rovira]

Totally cool that you're actually talking about...Salinger here, Chris :).  I get the impression that Holden is exaggerating a bit regarding number of times, and is probably referring to older boys at the boarding school.

Jim

[Chris Kubica]

I try, Jim. I try. :)

So older boys doing what? The same stuff they did to James Castle? And what do we think that is? Giving him a bare-butt spanking? Thwacking his wiener? What would boarding school kids in this time/place do if you get past the Holden-speak that is "perverty"?

-- 

Chris Kubica

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bananafish" group.
To post to this group, send email to bananaf...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bananafish-li...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bananafish-list?hl=en.

[Josh Lawson]

It's an interesting line, I don't think it implies that Holden was actually molested, but that he's aware of the possibility and it causes a lot of anxiety for him. I've tried to read Catcher with having Holden as a closeted homosexual myself and I recall finding some interesting passages to point towards that, what raised the idea for you Chris?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Chris Kubica <chris...@gmail.com> wrote:

[James Rovira]

That's a good question.  I've actually read more about English boarding schools in the 19th-20thC than American, and it seems like a whole range of activities took place, from full out rape/sexual molestation, to serious physical cruelty and humiliation, to some of the shenanigans that you describe below.  Not sure about US boarding schools in the 40s or so in and around NY.  So it's hard to say if Holden was just being a bit oversensitive or legitimately concerned, or how much of this is point of view.  The episode at his teacher's house is a good example of the ambiguity of the whole thing.  The teacher was showing what I think was fatherly love/affection, but it creeped Holden out -- but at the same time, why shouldn't it?  Holden can't possibly understand what a father feels, and his teacher had been drinking a bit already.  May be an example of crossed wires, miscommunication, but one that's understandable from both sides.

Jim

[Chris Kubica]

I didn't even TRY to read it that way this time. It just jumped out. What raised the idea:

--no sex yet with girls

--always says he's going to call girls but he isn't in the mood

--drawn toward older intellectual boys/men like Luce and Antolini

--being really upset when the jock-y boys at the schools "go in on" the quieter, gentler boys like Castle

--His internal monologue about whether what Antolini was doing when patting his head was a good thing or not

--His extreme-seeming fear of his masculine father

--His constant thoughts of the nuns (maybe about whether his closeted thoughts are sins)

--Him losing all the "foils" or that he even wants to be around so many "foils"

--His ripping a new one into every girl he talks about, dances with or dates in the whole book

-- 

Chris Kubica

[James Rovira]

Where do you get the impression that Holden's father was masculine, or that Holden was afraid of him?

Couldn't you recreate the list very differently?

-Holden's idealization of Jane.
-Holden's interest in what'shername.
-Holden's hiring of a prostitute.
-Holden's interest in the girls that he dances with at the bar.

Being awkward and ineffective with girls isn't unusual for a teenage boy.  Except for me, of course.

Jim

[Chris Kubica]

Notes below.

-- 

Chris Kubica

On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:00 AM, James Rovira wrote:

Where do you get the impression that Holden's father was masculine, or that Holden was afraid of him?

I'd have to look for some passages. But he talks a few times about how he isn't looking forward to his Dad chewing him out for getting kicked out...again. And I'm assuming that since Dad is the stereotypical absent, working father that he's also the stereo-typical Dick & Jane dad, too.

Couldn't you recreate the list very differently?

Maybe. But all these ones also support my theory! To wit:

-Holden's idealization of Jane.

As he tells us, anyway. But he never actually calls her. He just wants us to THINK he like girls. He has to like girls. Just like Rock Hudson had to. Rock even married one.

-Holden's interest in what'shername.

Same thing. He makes a point of saying that he's "sexy" with girls in the beginning. This could all be a cover for whoever is psycho-analyzing him during Holden's narrative in his rest home or wherever. And likely Holden still wouldn't come out even after all this in the late 40s NYC world he lives in where flitty, pimply guys have no other way to go except through a window.

-Holden's hiring of a prostitute.

But he doesn't do the Holden humpty-hump with her, though, does he?

-Holden's interest in the girls that he dances with at the bar.

He's going through the motions of interest because that's what his society tells him to do. But he can't hide his disgust with and mockery for all of them.

Chris

[James Rovira]

Nah, Chris, the facts are the facts -- which facts we privilege will skew our interpretation of other facts, so saying that you CAN interpret the facts I present as you have is not to demonstrate why we SHOULD take them that way.  Holden is a teenage boy who has not yet had sex with a girl.  That is not uncommon.  He hires a prostitute because he's interested in sex, and says that he feels "sexy" quite often because of women, but being an inexperienced teenage boy doesn't know what to do.  I don't think that's very uncommon either.  First time I read Catcher, I asked myself what I would do if I were turned loose, unsupervised, with a lot of money in NYC -- I would have acted exactly the same way.  Might Holden be experiencing some homosexual desire and freaking out about it?  Maybe.  That's not to weird for a teenage boy either, and doesn't mean he's a homosexual.  He's Immature sexually, perhaps somewhat confused, looking for his first experience but wanting love and intimacy too, and being the humane person that he is, sees people as people, not as objects -- so he can't even see the prostitute as a sex object.  He HAS TO talk to her before he can have sex with her.  She doesn't understand that.    

There's no reason to believe that his feelings for Jane aren't real.  His disgust with women is usually related to the stupidity and limitations of the women that he knows, not to their femininity.  As bodies, he finds them very attractive and pays attention to them very closely.  Once he spends a bit of time talking to them, he finds them just as phony as everyone else, except Jane.

So far as Holden's unreliability as a narrator goes, yes, that's obvious.  But he's self-conscious about it too. 

Jim

[Frank Marcopolos]

I really took notice of that line in Catcher only when I re-read the
book recently. I took it to mean that Holden was molested, in some
way, maybe saying made uncomfortable by adults as a boy growing up,
frequently. But it is speculation, since he doesn't specify.