Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Santa Clara County light rail: Is it worth the cost?

4 views
Skip to first unread message

Adrian Brandt

unread,
Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
Published Wednesday, December 1, 1999, in the San Jose Mercury News

Light rail: Is it worth the cost? on trolleys' value

New Mountain View line to open soon

by Gary Richards
Mercury News Staff Writer

In two weeks, light-rail trains will begin running to downtown Mountain
View, the first extension of the system since 1991. In four more years,
trolleys will be running to Milpitas, East San Jose and Campbell,
doubling the current 21 miles of track.

Total cost: nearly $1.5 billion to build the entire system, and more
than $50 million a year to operate and maintain it.

Some commuters wonder whether the huge investment has been worth it.
Many felt that turning to mass transit would ease our highway woes. It
hasn't.

While ridership is rising and public subsidies are declining, four out
of five Silicon Valley commuters still drive alone in their cars. And
they're stuck in traffic jams that begin earlier in the day, last longer
at night and stretch for many more miles.

The grade for Santa Clara County's fledging transit system: too early
to tell.

``I'd give it an incomplete,'' said Steve Heminger, deputy executive
director of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission, based in
Oakland. ``Unlike the BART system, which was more or less all built
at once, Santa Clara (County) because of funding has had to build the
system one leg at a time.

``The extensions into Milpitas and east in San Jose will be even bigger
steps. Then it will go into more residential areas. Then give it a
grade.''

Supporters tend to agree. They cheer the nearly doubling of daily
weekday ridership from 12,569 in 1991 to almost 23,000 today. And they
point out that fare box return -- how much each passenger's ticket price
contributes to the actual cost of a ride -- has improved from a dismal
11 percent in 1991 to 18.2 percent, lowering public subsidies.

40,000 a day projected

When all planned extensions are built, by 2004, ridership could top
40,000 a day. ``I think we'll surpass that real quick,'' said Pete
Cipolla, general manager of the Valley Transportation Authority,
which oversees bus and light-rail operations. ``I think we're real
conservative on the 7,500 new riders we expect on Tasman West (the
Mountain View line).

``And when we go to the east, ridership will skyrocket.''

The value of light rail might not even be questioned if original
ridership estimates had not been wildly optimistic. Backers in the early
'80s claimed the current line from Almaden Valley to Great America would
carry 35,000 to 40,000 people a day by now. A 1987 study lowered that
figure to 18,000 to 20,000 a day, and by that standard, light rail is
performing better than expected.

But the damage had been done. Many critics refuse to believe any
estimates and are convinced the trolleys are a flop. They say the $325
million for the 7.6-mile Mountain View extension has taken money away
from highways.

``It's just too expensive for the people it carries,'' said Omar Chatty,
member of a loose-knit group called People for Efficient Transportation.
``All it's done is replace bus routes at a huge cost. That $325 million
could have gotten eight lanes on 880 at Brokaw Road, or eight lanes on
Highway 101.''

Added Ben Savage, a San Jose-to-Cupertino commuter: ``What has light
rail done for me? Nothing, nothing at all. If they spent money to widen
280, now that would help.''

Critics often miss a key point. Nearly two of every three dollars for
the Tasman West extension comes from Washington and is money earmarked
for transit only.

``If that money doesn't go to Tasman, it goes to a rail project in Los
Angeles, Seattle or New Jersey,'' Heminger said.

The Measure B half-cent sales tax approved by county voters in 1996
allocates nearly $800 million for transit projects, mostly light rail.
This compares with about $550 million set aside for highways,
expressways and city streets.

But the history in Santa Clara County is that roads have come first.

Consider:

A 1984 sales tax measure raised $1.1 billion, and every penny went for
roads. It paid for the building of Highway 85, the widening of Highway
101 and the conversion of Highway 237 to a freeway.

Every freeway and most expressways in the county have been widened in
the past 15 years. By the time current widening projects on highways 87
and 101 and Interstate 880 are completed in four years, more than 300
miles of new lanes will have been built.

Coupled with work on city streets, interchange upgrades and seismic
repairs, nearly three of every four federal and state dollars spent on
transportation in the past two decades in Santa Clara County have gone
to road improvements.

County voters also seem to agree that mass transit deserves a bigger
share. They approved a permanent half-cent sales tax increase in 1976,
creating the current transit agency. And they approved temporary
measures in 1992 and 1996 that gave more money to transit than roads,
although the '92 measure was later ruled invalid.

But even the most ardent supporters admit that light rail is not the
cure for today's commuting woes. Where once it was thought to be an
effective means of easing congestion, the reality is that it will offer
some commuters a way around idling traffic -- but won't put a dent in
the tie-ups on our freeways and expressways.

The region's economic boom is luring thousands more people onto the
roads, many forced by soaring housing costs in Silicon Valley to live
50 miles or more from the office. For them, trains are few and chances
of carpooling small. Adding 21 miles of light rail can't offset added
traffic pouring into the valley.

``It doesn't look like light rail can compete effectively with
driving,'' said Ray Williamson, a Sunnyvale city traffic engineer and
chairman of the Institute of Transportation Engineers. ``Light rail will
do a very good job of serving a certain group of travelers, but it's
unlikely to provide significant traffic relief.

``But we just can't keep building freeways. Unfortunately, mass transit
is very expensive, and we always have to do it a little at a time.''

Added Cipolla, the VTA boss: ``If you built a 21-mile highway, it
wouldn't take many people from one place to another. It wouldn't work
very well. That's what has happened on the Guadalupe (trolley) line. We
have 21 miles of track, which doesn't take us far from one place to
another.''

A look at the future

Come back in four years, Cipolla added. Then you'll be able to hop
aboard Caltrain in San Carlos, transfer to light rail in Mountain
View and ride to Cisco's growing work site near Interstate 880 on the
Milpitas-San Jose border. Or take light rail from the Alum Rock area
and transfer to a train that goes to the BART station in Union City.

``If San Jose wants to be a major city, it has to have better mass
transit,'' said Beth Tran, a light-rail rider. ``. . . Light rail works
fine. I just want it to go more places.''

The trolleys will, and soon. And then we can judge it.

OVER THE YEARS WITH LIGHT RAIL

Light-rail daily ridership is expected to pass the 30,000 mark after the
extension to Mountain View opens this month.

Weekday Fare box Miles
Year ridership return open
1988 1,101 10.6% 8
1989 6,419 11.3% 10
1990 8,083 11.4% 12
1991 12,569 11.0% 21
1997 22,957 15.5% 21
1999* 23,000 18.2% 21
2000** 30,000 NA 28.6

* Ridership before light-rail line from First Street to Great America
closed for construction of western extension.

** Projection after Mountain View extension opens.

(Source: Valley Transportation Authority)

Have a question about the light-rail extension to Mountain View? Contact
Gary Richards at mrroa...@sjmercury.com or (408) 920-5335. Or try our
home page: www.mercurycenter.com/columnists/richards


--

Adrian Brandt
(408) 565-7291 / abr...@nortelnetworks.com

RicSilver

unread,
Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
Subject: Santa Clara County light rail: Is it worth the cost?

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

Do I make myself clear???

Ric Silver

Robert Hull

unread,
Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
RicSilver <rics...@aol.com> wrote:
: Subject: Santa Clara County light rail: Is it worth the cost?

: YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

: Do I make myself clear???

It would have been better if they had spent the money right from the start
to go under Central Expressway and under Castro St and continued upto the
California Avenue section of Palo Alto.

--
The difference between knowledge and belief is doubt.

Jim Middleton

unread,
Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
Robert Hull wrote:

> It would have been better if they had spent the money right from the start
> to go under Central Expressway and under Castro St

The costs for this option would have been prohibitive.


> and continued up to the California Avenue section of Palo Alto.

This option would have required MOVING either Caltrain tracks OR Central Expwy
and Alma.
Also cost prohibitive.

--
Jim Middleton

E-mail:
webm...@lightrail.com
OR
j...@lightrail.com

http://www.lightrail.com
http://www.lightrail.net

RicSilver

unread,
Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
Robert Hull posted:

??>Subject: Santa Clara County light rail: Is it worth the cost?

RS>YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YRS1 YES! YES! YES! YES!


Do I make myself clear???

RH>It would have been better if they had spent the money right from the start
to go under Central Expressway and under Castro St and continued upto the

California Avenue section of Palo Alto.

Perhaps, but we can't cry over spilled milk. The fact is that this extention is
going to be a great success and a good investment. I'm only concerned that
Caltrain is failing to do anything about providing better service to/from the
LR station in Mt View.

There's a big chance to gain a lot of new riders.

Ric Silver

Adrian Brandt

unread,
Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
Jim Middleton wrote:
> [Grade-separating the Tasman LRT crossing at Central Expressway] would

> have required MOVING either Caltrain tracks OR Central Expwy and Alma.

Central Expressway *and* Alma? Did you mean Evelyn? Central turns into
Alma as you pass into Palo Alto near the San Antonio Road overpass.

Robert Hull

unread,
Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
Adrian Brandt <abr...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:

: Jim Middleton wrote:
:> [Grade-separating the Tasman LRT crossing at Central Expressway] would
:> have required MOVING either Caltrain tracks OR Central Expwy and Alma.

: Central Expressway *and* Alma? Did you mean Evelyn? Central turns into
: Alma as you pass into Palo Alto near the San Antonio Road overpass.

Exactly, my suggestion was to continue Light Rail to California Avenue
in Palo Alto. This would allow it to eventually loop up Page Mill Road then
down FootHill Expy and Stevens Creek Blvd to downtown San Jose.

Richard Mlynarik

unread,
Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
From: rics...@aol.com (RicSilver)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Date: 01 Dec 1999 19:43:03 GMT

Subject: Santa Clara County light rail: Is it worth the cost?

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!


Do I make myself clear???

Yes, you do.

Something for numerate others to ponder:
(known) $327 million for (optimistic) 6,900 new riders.

Richard Mlynarik

unread,
Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
From: rics...@aol.com (RicSilver)
Date: 03 Dec 1999 04:11:25 GMT

Richard Mlynarik posted:

RM> Something for numerate others...

I think that Richard attempt to flame me

Pretty good! Now look up "illiterate".

RM>.. to ponder: (known) $327 million for (optimistic) 6,900 new riders.

Except for some (but not all) of the proposed improvements to
Caltrain does anybody ever remember Richard ever finding a rail
project or system he thinks is good?

There are very few rail projects which make any fiscal or
environmental sense, largely because of the heartbreakingly immense
opportunity costs.

I have no interest in funding welfare agencies for engineering and
construction contractors.

Considering that Richard "Claims" to be a rail advocate, he sure
spends a lot of time finding fault.

I claim no such thing.

"Rail advocates" are often public transportation's worst enemies.

Brian Mueller

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Adrian Brandt quoted:

>Many felt that turning to mass transit would ease our highway woes. It
>hasn't.

It's just a case of what I've spoken about before -- doing things half
way. They built a light rail system but didn't expand it, and let
ticket prices go up. So now it's not in the right places and the cost
is inconvient. That's why it hasn't lived up to its potential, not
because of any inherent flaws.

>``I'd give it an incomplete,'' said Steve Heminger, deputy executive
>director of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission, based in
>Oakland. ``Unlike the BART system, which was more or less all built
>at once, Santa Clara (County) because of funding has had to build the
>system one leg at a time.

Exactly.

And BART isn't truely complete either -- it only connects half of the
Bay Area, and excludes the City (San Jose, not the significantly
smaller town to the north).

--Brian Mueller


RicSilver

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Richard Mlynarik posted:

RM> Something for numerate others...

I think that Richard attempt to flame me

RM>.. to ponder: (known) $327 million for (optimistic) 6,900 new riders.

Except for some (but not all) of the proposed improvements to Caltrain does
anybody ever remember Richard ever finding a rail project or system he thinks
is good?

Considering that Richard "Claims" to be a rail advocate, he sure spends a lot
of time finding fault.

That in and of itseld isn't bad, but what tangeable things does he support?

Ric Silver

Eric Holeman

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
In article <xcjaens...@POBox.COM>,
Richard Mlynarik <M...@POBox.COM> wrote:

>I have no interest in funding welfare agencies for engineering and
>construction contractors.

Look on the bright side--every dollar spent on rail is a dollar not spent
on highways.

>"Rail advocates" are often public transportation's worst enemies.

Rail rocks. People like rail because it's *better* than buses. Spend a
zillion dollars on buses and in fifty years you have a pile of used parts.
Spend a zillion on a rail system, and in fifty years, you still have a
rail system, still getting people where they need to go.

I've ridden VTA, and found it to be very helpful in getting around. The
one thing it lacked was effective connections to the other rail systems in
the area. That's half addressed with the extension; if it should ever get
extended to the Fremont BART, you'd actually have a system that went
almost anywhere you'd need to go.
--
Eric Holeman Chicago, Illinois USA
"About all Ammiano and Jordan have in common is a dislike of Brown and
documented proof that they've been naked with men. "
Rob Morse, S.F. Examiner

RicSilver

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Richard Mlynarik posted:

RM>There are very few rail projects which make any fiscal or environmental

sense, largely because of the heartbreakingly immense opportunity costs.

So at last Richard comes out of the closet and admits that he's really
anti-rail.

RS>Considering that Richard "Claims" to be a rail advocate, he sure spends a


lot of time finding fault.

RM>I claim no such thing.

Be and officer of PR2000, Rescue Muni, and a (former) member of TRAC and the
Western RR Muesum, all group that support and promote rail, it could be assume
that you were a rail supporter.

But perhaps I am right, Richard isn't in favor of better transit so much as
he's opposed to BART.

Could it be that Richard has inflitrated these groups in order to spread
disinformation? And, by his action at public meetings and event, to discredit
them?

This may explain why so many of the PR2000 folks are feed up by his antics.

RM>"Rail advocates" are often public transportation's worst enemies.

I think by Richard's own actions he's proven that point very well.

Ric Silver

Andy Chow

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Eric Holeman wrote in message <827lmk$69t$1...@eve.enteract.com>...

>Rail rocks. People like rail because it's *better* than buses. Spend a
>zillion dollars on buses and in fifty years you have a pile of used parts.
>Spend a zillion on a rail system, and in fifty years, you still have a
>rail system, still getting people where they need to go.

I think you're wrong. If the money spent on light rail be spent on buses,
what you would get is a bus service with light rail quality on many more
corridors. Buses have imported many techniques used by light rail for more
reliable service, such as signal priority, easy access with the use of low
floor buses, queue jumping lanes, ticket vending machines at certain
stations, etc.

Light rail, along with commuter and heavy rail, often rely on buses as back
ups in case the rail system fails. It is practiced virtually every cities in
the world. Even in Hong Kong, rail systems do fail and the passengers would
have to squeezed onto buses.

Even though it is true that buses don't have as high as capacity as light
rail, vehicle and/or system, but the bus and light rail system in Santa
Clara County is far from reaching its capacity. You could say that VTA is
wasting money, or that cities don't encourage the growth that would take
advantage of the light rail system, or even both.

With quality bus service, I would say that people won't want light rail.

>I've ridden VTA, and found it to be very helpful in getting around. The
>one thing it lacked was effective connections to the other rail systems in
>the area. That's half addressed with the extension; if it should ever get
>extended to the Fremont BART, you'd actually have a system that went
>almost anywhere you'd need to go.

Light rail has about 0.01% of going to Fremont. BART has slightly higher
chance to reach light rail at the county line, and commuter rail connection
has a much higher chance over both.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
NetJournal with Andy Chow and Friends
http://www.netcom.com/~c-2000/netjournal/home.html


Eric Holeman

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
In article <827uaf$ua4$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net>,
Andy Chow <ac-...@altavista.net> wrote:

>Light rail, along with commuter and heavy rail, often rely on buses as back
>ups in case the rail system fails. It is practiced virtually every cities in
>the world. Even in Hong Kong, rail systems do fail and the passengers would
>have to squeezed onto buses.

Just 'cuz it works as a backup system doesn't mean it should be an
everyday system. You could theoretically cram all the transbay BART
riders onto buses and roll 'em over the bridge, but the service would be
slower and of lower quality in just about any measurable way.

I'd be curious to hear about when MTR failed and buses had to save the
day. it couldn't have been for too long a duration--in two years of daily
commuting on Chicago's rickety system, I've never had to fall back on the
bus--not even when the snowstorms forced severe service cuts.

--
Eric Holeman Chicago, Illinois USA

"Wasn't it classic Seattleanese to float the notion that
the rioters weren't local?"--Hotshotz, sfgate.com

Andy Chow

unread,
Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Eric Holeman wrote in message <829gl3$810$1...@eve.enteract.com>...

>Just 'cuz it works as a backup system doesn't mean it should be an
>everyday system. You could theoretically cram all the transbay BART
>riders onto buses and roll 'em over the bridge, but the service would be
>slower and of lower quality in just about any measurable way.

Quality depends on the quality of the vehicle, and how is treated on the
road. Good transit buses are low floor, have padded seats, heaters if not
air-conditioning. Buses should have priority over autos on major roads. In
Hong Kong, almost all buses have padded seats, most have air conditioning,
and almost all buses purchased after 1997 are low floor. There's no low
floor or padded seats for buses, even brand new, here in San Francisco.

Light rail, unless have exclusive right of way, performs worse than buses
under mixed traffic condition, because buses can bypass double parkers, cars
and trucks that stick out from the drive way onto the road and such, and
offer safer access from riders, as buses can stop on the curb. For some
surface MUNI Metro stops, passengers have to board and alight onto the road,
but buses don't have that problem.

If surface exclsuive right of way have to be provided, the cost would be
high because road widening would almost always be required, especially in
this auto-centric California. Roads can be built with extra wide median to
accomodate future light rail in undeveloped areas, but that opportunity
doesn't exists in San Francisco.

If the right of way has to be underground, it would increase the cost much
more, and there would be less access because of the limited underground
stations due to high cost.

Buses can provide more point to point services that rail can't easily
provide. If there's no territorial and agency consideration, a bus line can
be created to go from Berkeley to the Marina District of SF, eliminating
transfers between the lines and between the modes.

>I'd be curious to hear about when MTR failed and buses had to save the
>day. it couldn't have been for too long a duration--in two years of daily
>commuting on Chicago's rickety system, I've never had to fall back on the
>bus--not even when the snowstorms forced severe service cuts.

It happens sometimes on MTR, such as overhead wire failure. About 10 years
ago, when there was a problem, for another electrified rail transit line in
HK, passengers fought each other to try to get on a bus.

Sometimes you could be a frequent rider and none of these problems to happen
on you. Despite the fact that I ride Caltrain for more than 2 years, I have
never been on a train that strucked someone and got delayed as the result.

bikerider8

unread,
Dec 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/8/99
to
On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 22:57:36 GMT no...@none.com (Brian Mueller) wrote:
> Richard Mlynarik wrote:
>
> >Something for numerate others to ponder:

> >(known) $327 million for (optimistic) 6,900 new riders.
>
> I have to agree with Silver on this one, Mlynarik.
>
> Although I also agree with the BART guy who was quoted earlier as
> saying that Light Rail is a "work in progress".
>

Speaking as someone who works near the new rail line, I
don't think I will ever use it. The reason: it is
way too slow! I can get to destinations along the
Tasman corridor faster by bicycle let alone by car.

Since the line serves business parks along 237, it should
have been built in the median of 237. This would have
allowed faster speeds and full grade separation. I'm
not a big fan of running trains down freeways, but
most businesses around here are located as close to
a freeway as possible. I imagine it would have been
cheaper too.

-Eric McCaughrin

--
Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums
Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)


Andy Chow

unread,
Dec 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/8/99
to
bikerider8 wrote in message ...

>Speaking as someone who works near the new rail line, I
>don't think I will ever use it. The reason: it is
>way too slow! I can get to destinations along the
>Tasman corridor faster by bicycle let alone by car.

It depends on where you're going.

>Since the line serves business parks along 237, it should
>have been built in the median of 237. This would have
>allowed faster speeds and full grade separation. I'm
>not a big fan of running trains down freeways, but
>most businesses around here are located as close to
>a freeway as possible. I imagine it would have been
>cheaper too.

Businesses don't orient themselves to the freeway although their employees
rely in it, consider that there's no direct access to these employment sites
from the freeway. Cars have to turn to secondary roads from the freeway in
order to access these sites.

One element for consideration is accessibility. Fixed guideway transit on
freeway median, althrough would provide fastest schedule speed, would have
the poorest access. To compensate, large parking lots would have to be built
to feed people in. Parking lots are not as efficient than transit oriented
development, which really can't be done next to a freeway.

The way the light rail is aligned, it expects riders to transfer from the
Guadalupe line, Caltrain, and express buses, and no transfer needed from
Tasman to get to the destination. If the LR line is aligned to the freeway,
transfers to shuttles, or long walks would be needed to get riders to their
destinations, which would increase out-of-vehicle time for riders. Commuters
value their out-of-vehicle time more than in-vehicle time, and the freeway
alignment would discourage ridership even if the total in-vehicle and
out-of-vehicle travel time is the same for these two alignments.

bikerider8

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to
>
> Businesses don't orient themselves to the freeway although
> their employees rely in it, consider that there's no
> direct access to these employment sites
> from the freeway. Cars have to turn to secondary roads from
> the freeway in order to access these sites.

So pedestrians/cyclists/buses cannot use secondary roads? Besides,
the way the stops are laid out, riders will have a long walk
regardless. Look how far away the Lockheed stop is from the
Lockheed buildings. The Moffett stop must be a good half-mile
from any actual buildings (and it is right next to the 237
freeway anyway).

> Parking lots are not as efficient than transit oriented
> development, which really can't be done next to a freeway.

What transit-oriented development!? With the possible
exception of downtown Mountain View everything in the
corridor is business parks, surrounded by acres of
parking. I don't know about Santa Clara, but Sunnyvale
has no plans to change zoning to favor TOD in the
area (that I know of) or to increase density to make
LRT practical.

This Tasman extension merely duplicates service that
was already provided by line 20. It doesn't even
provide any speed improvement over that of the 20.
If the 20 were ridiculously overcrowded, VTA might
have been justified in building the line anway, but
that is hardly the case.

Adrian Brandt

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to
bikerider8 wrote:
> This Tasman extension merely duplicates service that was already
> provided by line 20. It doesn't even provide any speed improvement
> over that of the 20.

If this is true, then this will be provide a nice case study for my
contention that more people will ride light rail transit versus bus
transit--even if they are identical in terms of route and speed. I
look forward to comparing November 1999's bus line 20 ridership and
November 2000's Tasman LRT ridership between Mountain View's transit
center and North 1st Street (which is the segment the two will have
had in common).

Stewart Kramer

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to
In article <38501FE1...@americasm01.nt.com>,

Adrian Brandt <abr...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
>contention that more people will ride light rail transit versus bus
>transit--even if they are identical in terms of route and speed. I
>look forward to comparing November 1999's bus line 20 ridership and
>November 2000's Tasman LRT ridership between Mountain View's transit
>center and North 1st Street (which is the segment the two will have
>had in common).

Well, the route between Stanford and my home in Milpitas is much worse.
The end of the 20 line (Dixon/Milpitas Blvd.) I can walk to in 10
minutes, starting at home. It connects at San Antonio Shopping Center
to any of several bus routes to Stanford/Palo Alto, after an arduous
and winding route on both ends. The Stanford Marguerite shuttles to
the Palo Alto Caltrain stations are an option at that end.

The 20 is being discontinued, and the new bus will add another transfer.
Instead of bus/bus or bus/bus/shuttle, it will be bus/train/train/shuttle
with the addition of a separate Caltrain fare. I'm glad I don't need
to take transit on a regular basis.
---
Stewart "For BART, I drive to Daly City and park for free" Kramer

qwerty

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to

"bikerider8" <ro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EHU34.11040$Mg.1...@c01read03-admin.service.talkway.com...

> >
> > Businesses don't orient themselves to the freeway although
> > their employees rely in it, consider that there's no
> > direct access to these employment sites
> > from the freeway. Cars have to turn to secondary roads from
> > the freeway in order to access these sites.
>
> So pedestrians/cyclists/buses cannot use secondary roads? Besides,
> the way the stops are laid out, riders will have a long walk
> regardless. Look how far away the Lockheed stop is from the
> Lockheed buildings. The Moffett stop must be a good half-mile
> from any actual buildings (and it is right next to the 237
> freeway anyway).
>
> > Parking lots are not as efficient than transit oriented
> > development, which really can't be done next to a freeway.
>
> What transit-oriented development!? With the possible
> exception of downtown Mountain View everything in the
> corridor is business parks, surrounded by acres of
> parking. I don't know about Santa Clara, but Sunnyvale
> has no plans to change zoning to favor TOD in the
> area (that I know of) or to increase density to make
> LRT practical.

Transit oriented development in Mountain View includes the Townsquare
development, directly across from the Mountain View transit center and
Whisman Crossings at the Whisman station. The Mountain View City Council
has made an honest effort to have at least moderate density located near
rail station. Also, zoning near the Transit Center in Downtown Mountain
View is also preferred for higher density.

Adrian Brandt

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to
Stewart Kramer wrote:
> The 20 is being discontinued, and the new bus will add another transfer.
> Instead of bus/bus or bus/bus/shuttle, it will be bus/train/train/shuttle
> with the addition of a separate Caltrain fare.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's where you're wrong. You would only need a single ticket: a
Caltrain monthly ticket valid for two or more Caltrain fare zones is
good for a local fare credit on both VTA and SamTrans. (Since MV-PA
happens to be entirely within Caltrain fare zone 4, you'd have to
get a Caltrain monthly with an extra fare zone thrown in, which is
still cheaper and more convenient than buying a separate VTA pass.)

bikerider8

unread,
Dec 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/10/99
to
On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:32:17 -0800 Adrian Brandt
<abr...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
> bikerider8 wrote:
> > This Tasman extension merely duplicates service that was already
> > provided by line 20. It doesn't even provide any speed improvement
> > over that of the 20.
>
> If this is true, then this will be provide a nice case study for my
> contention that more people will ride light rail transit versus bus
> transit--even if they are identical in terms of route and speed. I
> look forward to comparing November 1999's bus line 20 ridership and
> November 2000's Tasman LRT ridership between Mountain View's transit
> center and North 1st Street (which is the segment the two will have
> had in common).
>

I don't think the frequency of service will be the same. Outside
rush hour, the 20 only runs every 30 minutes. And even if the
projections are to be belived, it will only net a few thousand
riders. As the 1st posting in this thread asks, is this worth
$300 million?

Merlin Dorfman

unread,
Dec 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/10/99
to
bikerider8 <ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:32:17 -0800 Adrian Brandt

: <abr...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote:
:> bikerider8 wrote:
:> > This Tasman extension merely duplicates service that was already
:> > provided by line 20. It doesn't even provide any speed improvement
:> > over that of the 20.
:>
:> If this is true, then this will be provide a nice case study for my
:> contention that more people will ride light rail transit versus bus
:> transit--even if they are identical in terms of route and speed. I
:> look forward to comparing November 1999's bus line 20 ridership and
:> November 2000's Tasman LRT ridership between Mountain View's transit
:> center and North 1st Street (which is the segment the two will have
:> had in common).
:>

: I don't think the frequency of service will be the same. Outside
: rush hour, the 20 only runs every 30 minutes. And even if the
: projections are to be belived, it will only net a few thousand
: riders. As the 1st posting in this thread asks, is this worth
: $300 million?

Seems to me the two big differences between Line #20 and the
Light Rail are:
- Light rail stops are much farther apart
- Light rail runs much more frequently. (Will it be 24-hour service
like Guadalupe?)
If there were ever bumper-to-bumper traffic on Tasman as there
is on North First Street and Highway 87, the speed of light rail
vs. bus in this situation would be another difference.
Merlin Dorfman
DOR...@COMPUTER.ORG


0 new messages