Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to kill "FOX" bullet train
Adrian Brandt
[Florida Governor Jeb] Bush to kill bullet train
Long-planned rail called too risky
By MARK SILVA
Capital Bureau Chief
TALLAHASSEE -- Gov. Jeb Bush is slamming the brakes
on the ``bullet train,'' a $6 billion,
French-modeled, 200-mph express that state
authorities and private developers wanted to run from
Miami to Orlando and Tampa.
The long-planned venture poses too much risk and too
much cost for Florida taxpayers, Bush plans to
announce today, in a statement blocking any more
spending on the project. The state already has spent
$22 million on the Florida Overland Express (FOX),
and $10 million before that in a decade of dreaming
about high-speed rail that invoked images of magnetic
levitation.
Not another dime, Bush will say today, suggesting
other ways to spend $56 million sitting in a state
account for a now side-tracked bullet train.
Money isn't the sole concern, according to advisors
close to Bush, who questions the impact such a train
might have on the Everglades, its inland stations
luring further development. He also challenges
Florida's ``cultural demand'' -- or lack of it -- for
a European-styled mode of transit.
``This decision was made with a lot of thought and a
lot of research,'' one of Bush's close advisors said
Wednesday. ``The governor has decided not to support
the funding of the project in his upcoming budget,
nor the spending of any unspent money on it.''
The state Department of Transportation's budget for
planning of the train runs dry at the end of January,
and Transportation Secretary Tom Barry has been
awaiting word from the new governor and fellow
Republican legislative leaders about the train's
future before advancing any more work.
Bush's action today, with key legislators also
critical of the train, augurs a divorce in Florida's
partnership with the FOX developers, a team of three
international firms committed to investing $350
million of their own but also keen on establishing a
long-term state commitment.
``I would think that would be the death knell for
it,'' said Dave Goodstein, vice chairman of a group,
Derail the Bullet Train, in Boca Raton.
``A lot of people who did not speak out against this
are now speaking out, and people who were in favor of
it in the past are now saying they were always
against it, which tells you which way the tide is
going,'' Goodstein said Wednesday. ``What the
governor says would simply reinforce what the
Republican leadership in the Legislature is
feeling.''
The Legislature always can authorize spending but a
governor has power to block it.
``He felt like a governor's job is to lead,
regardless of the prevailing winds on the subject,''
one aide said. ``Someone has to lead on the budget.
. . . His decision will send a pretty strong
signal.''
Environmental concerns
Bush first voiced criticism of the train during his
campaign for governor last year. The Miami commercial
real estate developer complained that the state
stands to place too much of its own capital on
construction -- and risk too much of its own
gasoline-tax revenue on the train's potential losses
-- for a venture that private developers alone won't
undertake.
But the Everglades and the effect a train running
inland from Miami to Orlando could have on future
development also are concerns, aides say.
``Environmentally, there are real concerns,
encroachment of the Everglades, water quality . . .
just a myriad of issues beside financial'' ones, an
advisor said. ``How much will the rail be used?
Europe is not the United States. . . . Is the project
going to become obsolete before it comes on line?''
Construction of a 320-mile rail line is estimated at
costing $6.3 billion: an electrified railroad running
express trips from seven stations -- at Miami's
airport, western Broward and Palm Beach counties,
Orlando's airport and the tourist attractions,
Lakeland and Tampa. The high-rolling rail is modeled
after France's Train de Grande Vitesse, without
crossings in traffic, a blur of a train coursing the
median strips of Interstate 75 and I-4.
But Bush has challenged the equation of private and
public money involved in a proposal that heaped much
of the cost on government:
+ A team of private firms selected by the state on
April 4, 1996, to build and run the train committed
$349 million to the venture. The FOX team also was
promised, but not guaranteed, a 15 percent return on
its investment in a contract signed with former
Transportation Secretary Ben Watts.
+ Part of a three-track government financing scheme
included $3 billion in bonds to be issued by the
state, the debt backed by revenue from train riders
-- 8.25 million riders predicted by the year 2010,
the first train rolling out of Miami some time in
early 2005.
+ The state's own commitment: $2 billion more in
bonds backed by a subsidy. The state's cost: $70
million a year, starting in 2001 and growing 4
percent a year, $310 million in the 40th year -- $6
billion all told, to be siphoned from gasoline taxes
that motorists pay, about a penny per gallon.
+ The financial third rail of the train: a $2 billion
loan from the federal government, a decision not
expected until fall.
Ridership report
The U.S. General Accounting Office soon will release
a report that some say will pile new questions on the
financing and potential ridership of the bullet
train. Bush's own transportation advisor has read the
report.
With its release Jan. 21, Goodstein says, ``I think
[Bush] will use that report to reinforce his feelings
that this is not a true public-private partnership.''
FOX is a consortium of an engineering giant, Fluor
Daniel, Canadian train-car builder Bombardier and the
maker of France's fast engines, Alstom.
Although the Legislature has set aside more money,
the state Department of Transportation has spent
$22.4 million on the FOX venture -- $9.5 million from
November 1996 through January 1998 and another $12.9
million since then. The Legislature's approval of
another round of spending last year, $47 million, was
based on the governor's clearance of development
plans.
Before FOX was born, the idea of high-speed rail was
explored when then-Gov. Bob Graham rode an express
train on a trip in Japan in 1981. Graham vowed in his
1984 State of the State speech to the Legislature
that Florida would have a similar train by the
state's 150th birthday -- 1995.
Since the creation of a High Speed Rail Commission 15
years ago, the state has underwritten ventures as
fanciful as magnetic levitation.
The state spent $1.7 million on the proposal of early
bidder American Maglev, a technology company from
Edgewater, Fla., only to attend a trial run on a
1,000-foot guideway with hay bales propped at the end
for brakes. The experimental train chassis levitated,
but never moved.
Altogether, the state invested $10 million on its
earliest efforts.
It would have cost $232 million to prepare the FOX
project for final approval by the governor and
Cabinet in two years -- 75 percent of this borne by
the state, 25 percent by FOX. This would include
environmental permitting for a route still undecided
but likely to follow inland state highways.
The Department of Transportation still has in the
bank $56 million approved by lawmakers but blocked
today by Bush, who will suggest alternatives -- ``no
specifics, but other things that we could spend the
money on.''
--
Adrian Brandt
(408) 565-7291 / abr...@nortelnetworks.com
David S
Who: Adrian Brandt <abr...@americasm01.nt.com>. Why: who knows? What:
>Published Thursday, January 14, 1999, in the Miami Herald
>
>[Florida Governor Jeb] Bush to kill bullet train
>
>Long-planned rail called too risky
>
>By MARK SILVA
>Capital Bureau Chief
<snip>
>Money isn't the sole concern, according to advisors
>close to Bush, who questions the impact such a train
>might have on the Everglades, its inland stations
>luring further development.
<snip>
>Environmental concerns
<snip>
>But the Everglades and the effect a train running
>inland from Miami to Orlando could have on future
>development also are concerns, aides say.
>
>``Environmentally, there are real concerns,
>encroachment of the Everglades, water quality . . .
>just a myriad of issues beside financial'' ones, an
>advisor said. ``How much will the rail be used?
>Europe is not the United States. . . . Is the project
>going to become obsolete before it comes on line?''
What does this have to do with the environment? There will be no diesel
exhaust.
>Construction of a 320-mile rail line is estimated at
>costing $6.3 billion: an electrified railroad running
>express trips from seven stations -- at Miami's
>airport, western Broward and Palm Beach counties,
>Orlando's airport and the tourist attractions,
>Lakeland and Tampa. The high-rolling rail is modeled
>after France's Train de Grande Vitesse, without
>crossings in traffic, a blur of a train coursing the
>median strips of Interstate 75 and I-4.
According to this last paragraph, there are no stations planned for the
middle of the Everglades, thus no development to cause disruption. OTOH,
the train will get people off the highway, which will be good for the
environment (or are they going to try to claim that the high voltage
catenary will damage the plants somehow?).
Sounds to me like just another Reaganite Republican who doesn't like
trains. Does he have David Stockman working for him?
David Streeter
--
opinions expressed are probably not those of
Little "Q" Model Railroad Club
Aurora, Illinois
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/8114/littleq.html
if replying by both newsgroup post and email, please say so
"Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints."
Kevin013
>... the state has underwritten ventures as
>> fanciful as magnetic levitation.
Fanciful?! That'll come as news to the folks at Transrapid in Germany. they're
justthisclose to making maglev practical.
>> The Department of Transportation still has in the
>> bank $56 million approved by lawmakers but blocked
>> today by Bush, who will suggest alternatives -- ``no
>> specifics, but other things that we could spend the
>> money on.''
Like, maybe, more airports or highways? Would the auto companies be making huge
profits if they, like the railroads, had to shoulder the entire cost of
right-of-way (road) maintenance and directly employ the maintenance-of-way
employees (road workers)? Not bloody likely. Same deal with the airlines and
the airports.
It's time we woke up and smelled the smog...
Kevin W. Hecteman
There are none so blind as those who will not see. There are none so deaf as
those who will not listen.
A closed mind gathers no thoughts.
David Kaye
" Total bullshit. The taxpayers have to pay for the tens of thousands of
" illegal cubans & mexicans and everything else that finds its way into
" that state when it comes to education, medical care, food, housing, etc.
Illegal immigrants have been shown (in California at least) to put more
money INTO the economy than they get out of government. Remember that
illegals have to pay into the tax system, but can't file to get refunds,
can't file for Social Security, can't file for anything that requires them
to be legal residents. America makes out very well thanks to keeping
illegals illegal.
Now, let's get back to transit, shall we?
--
(C) 1999 The Oscar Mayer company keeps 6 Wiener-mobiles
David Kaye in constant use across North America
dk at wco.com
edef...@my-dejanews.com
> Illegal immigrants have been shown (in California at least) to put more
> money INTO the economy than they get out of government. Remember that
> illegals have to pay into the tax system, but can't file to get refunds,
> can't file for Social Security, can't file for anything that requires them
> to be legal residents. America makes out very well thanks to keeping
> illegals illegal.
>
> Now, let's get back to transit, shall we?
Illegal immigrants can and do file income tax. Illegal immigrants do receive
refunds.
The IRS does not even prosecute legal residents earning income illegally (or
closer to the point) does not pass this information on to other agencies.
Getting back to transit, I would like to know what the official Sierra Club or
other environmental concerns say about the Florida High-Speed. Are the
development issues that Bush has addressed real concerns? Or is he trying
to "smokescreen" his opposition to this project?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Mike Stimpson
>
> When: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:35:23 -0800. Where: misc.transport.rail.americas.
> Who: Adrian Brandt <abr...@americasm01.nt.com>. Why: who knows? What:
>
> >Construction of a 320-mile rail line is estimated at
> >costing $6.3 billion: an electrified railroad running
> >express trips from seven stations -- at Miami's
> >airport, western Broward and Palm Beach counties,
> >Orlando's airport and the tourist attractions,
> >Lakeland and Tampa. The high-rolling rail is modeled
> >after France's Train de Grande Vitesse, without
> >crossings in traffic, a blur of a train coursing the
> >median strips of Interstate 75 and I-4.
>
> middle of the Everglades, thus no development to cause disruption. OTOH,
> the train will get people off the highway, which will be good for the
> environment (or are they going to try to claim that the high voltage
> catenary will damage the plants somehow?).
Um... you don't anticipate any disruption from the construction? You
don't anticipate any disruption from the ROW itself? A station would be
a fairly minor disruption, compared to the ROW.
As I understand it, the Everglades ecosystem depends on water flow from
north to south. Build a rail line across it, and you choke the whole
ecosystem (unless you put in a lot of bridges, or unless you elevate it
- but even so, you still rip up a fair chunk of land while constructing
the ROW).
--
Mike Stimpson (mst...@utsci.com)
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the management...
The more I work as an engineer, the more I disbelieve the theory of
evolution.
David S
Who: Mike Stimpson <mst...@utsci.com>. Why: who knows? What:
>David S wrote:
>>
>> When: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:35:23 -0800. Where: misc.transport.rail.americas.
>> Who: Adrian Brandt <abr...@americasm01.nt.com>. Why: who knows? What:
>>
>> >Published Thursday, January 14, 1999, in the Miami Herald
>[snip]
>> >Construction of a 320-mile rail line is estimated at
>> >costing $6.3 billion: an electrified railroad running
>> >express trips from seven stations -- at Miami's
>> >airport, western Broward and Palm Beach counties,
>> >Orlando's airport and the tourist attractions,
>> >Lakeland and Tampa. The high-rolling rail is modeled
>> >after France's Train de Grande Vitesse, without
>> >crossings in traffic, a blur of a train coursing the
>> >median strips of Interstate 75 and I-4.
>>
>> According to this last paragraph, there are no stations planned for the
>> middle of the Everglades, thus no development to cause disruption. OTOH,
>> the train will get people off the highway, which will be good for the
>> environment (or are they going to try to claim that the high voltage
>> catenary will damage the plants somehow?).
>
>Um... you don't anticipate any disruption from the construction? You
>don't anticipate any disruption from the ROW itself? A station would be
>a fairly minor disruption, compared to the ROW.
>
>As I understand it, the Everglades ecosystem depends on water flow from
>north to south. Build a rail line across it, and you choke the whole
>ecosystem (unless you put in a lot of bridges, or unless you elevate it
>- but even so, you still rip up a fair chunk of land while constructing
>the ROW).
1. Bush wasn't complaining about the disruption of construction, he was
complaining about the development that will follow construction. With no
stops, there will be no development (thought continued in next point).
2. The impact of building a rail line and of its permanent existence will
be a lot less than that of a highway, which I predict will be built instead
(even though no one's saying it (yet)). Also, with a highway, it's much
easier to have development along the way to further disrupt the
environment.
Michael Bilhartz
Well, he presented a plausible thesis, but without evidence to support it,
although it is a fact that a phony ssn card is going to put money into the
federal treasury that can never be withdrawn by the depositer, and most
other types of government sponsored welfare are unavailable to illegals.
Whether there is a net gain or loss, though, who knows?
OTOH, you didn't present any evidence to refute his thesis. So do you have
any?
Jeb's brother has apparently realized that illegal bashing is not fruitful.
And many Texans know that they depend on cheap illegal immigrant labor in
one way or the other, so you don't here loud voices there about illegal's
drains on the economy. It's a not-very-well-kept secret.
-Mike Bilhartz
DAVE D wrote in message <36A6BD72...@david.st>...
>You have got to be kidding me. Where on earth do you come up with this
total
>bullshit story. Illegals putting INTO the system? Yea, right. Don't know
what
>you're smoking but stay off it.
>
>David Kaye wrote:
>
>> Dave D wrote the quoted material below:
>> " Total bullshit. The taxpayers have to pay for the tens of thousands of
>> " illegal cubans & mexicans and everything else that finds its way into
>> " that state when it comes to education, medical care, food, housing,
etc.
>>
>> Illegal immigrants have been shown (in California at least) to put more
>> money INTO the economy than they get out of government. Remember that
>> illegals have to pay into the tax system, but can't file to get refunds,
>> can't file for Social Security, can't file for anything that requires
them
>> to be legal residents. America makes out very well thanks to keeping
>> illegals illegal.
>>
>> Now, let's get back to transit, shall we?
>>
Mike Stimpson
>
> You have got to be kidding me. Where on earth do you come up with this total
> bullshit story. Illegals putting INTO the system? Yea, right. Don't know what
> you're smoking but stay off it.
No, it's true. Taxes (Social Security at a minimum) is taken out of
illegal's paychecks, but since their SS numbers are faked, they can
never collect.
There's a discussion of this in "The Nine Nations of North America", by
Joel Garreau (sp?), published 1979 or 1980.
Now, as David Kaye said, lets go back to transit (and trains).
John Huie
growers do, when the USDA started to enforce anti-immigrant laws in S.
Georgia the growers stopped them cold, they wouldn't stand for
it...Don't believe everything u hear... John Huie
John Huie
world? ? Zillions for moon travel, nothing for sensible transit...Even
with private investors prepared to put up real green, too...a tragedy.
John Huie,Athens, GA
Matthew Johnson
investment as well.)
John Huie wrote in message <36AA3C...@athens.net>...
Doug Smith
Never ceases to amaze me how much land highways take up to move a given
amount of people. Bottom line on cancelling a railroad project? IMHO,
the highway project lines more pockets (besides yours and mine) and the
public can't be convinced of good transportation planning beyond the
next automobile advertisement.
Steven M. Scharf
total
>bullshit story. Illegals putting INTO the system? Yea, right. Don't know
what
>you're smoking but stay off it.
During the proposition 187 debate in California numerous
studies were done on the impact of illegals on the economy.
Illegals do impact medical care (though the cost of not
treating them is much higher). They do impact the cost of
education. However they do not collect unemployment, food
stamps, welfare, SSI, etc. Their low wages ensure low prices
for farm products, restaurant meals, janitorial and maid
service etc. The net impact of illegals was positive, at
least in monetary terms, they paid more in taxes and in
keeping prices of farm products and other goods and
services down, than they used in government services.
In Florida it may be a totally different situation, but
you have to look at both sides of the equation, not just
the cost of services provided to them, but what we would
all be paying for goods and services were the illegals
not doing all the undesirable jobs for low wages.
In California, if the supply of illegals was reduced there
would soon be another guest worker program implemented
whose costs would be even higher because there would be
government oversight to prevent exploitation. There are simply
not enough legals to pick all the fruit and vegetables! This
was done in the past at the request of corporate megafarmers,
and by Pete Wilson, one of the most vociferous immigrant
bashers. Since a guest worker program would cost everyone
more money, we have the quiet collusion between government
and business to continue the flow of illegals. Personally I'd rather
pay the extra for the guest worker program, not only because it
is less exploitive, but because there is more likelihood that the
workers will return home later.
Oh, you also have to throw in a few racists with limited
intelligence to stir up anger against the illegals. Pete
Wilson was very good at that. George W. Bush doesn't seem
to do that at all in Texas, probably for political reasons
(he wants to be president, while Wilson blew his chance).
Hopefully Jeb Bush won't sink to Wilson's level either.
Anyway, it seems that Florida experiments with a Republican
governor every ten to fifteen years or so, for one term.
Claude Kirk, and Bob Martinez were disasterous one term
Florida Republican governors. Hopefully Bush will be swept out of
office in 2002 (Let's hope the backlash against Republicans
will continue well after their 2000 drubbing). Then Florida
can take a fresh look at sensible transportation alternatives.
The medians will still be there four years from now.
Steve
----------------------------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages.
First it is ridiculed,
second it is violently opposed,
third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Schopehnauer
----------------------------------------------
Mike Dahmus
<sch...@grin.net> hired an infinite number of monkeys to write:
>In Florida it may be a totally different situation, but
>you have to look at both sides of the equation, not just
>the cost of services provided to them, but what we would
>all be paying for goods and services were the illegals
>not doing all the undesirable jobs for low wages.
The main reason Floridians have a negative attitude is because of the
Mariel boatlift(s), which sent a huge number of illegals who had to be
incarcerated.
Mike Dahmus mdahmus at I O DOT COM
http://www.io.com/~mdahmus/
"No one likes a pedantic smartarse..."