Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Rudeness on BART
13 views
Skip to first unread message
Kenneth M. Lin
May 28, 2012, 12:32:10 AM5/28/12
to
I usually get on at El Cerrito Del Norte Station and if it's during morning
commute time, a kid would just cut in front of me and get on the train ahead
of everybody else like he's the President of the United States.
Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native garb
pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in and got in
front of everyone and got on, even before people had the chance to get off
the train. There were at least a dozen persons waiting ahead of him to get
on but he felt that he was entitled to go in first because he's a prince of
an African nation or something.
commute time, a kid would just cut in front of me and get on the train ahead
of everybody else like he's the President of the United States.
Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native garb
pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in and got in
front of everyone and got on, even before people had the chance to get off
the train. There were at least a dozen persons waiting ahead of him to get
on but he felt that he was entitled to go in first because he's a prince of
an African nation or something.
Keith Keller
May 28, 2012, 1:38:33 AM5/28/12
to
On 2012-05-28, Kenneth M. Lin <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native garb
> pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in and got in
> front of everyone and got on, even before people had the chance to get off
> the train. There were at least a dozen persons waiting ahead of him to get
> on but he felt that he was entitled to go in first because he's a prince of
> an African nation or something.
Wow that is incredibly racist. Maybe the guy's just a jerk?
>
> Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native garb
> pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in and got in
> front of everyone and got on, even before people had the chance to get off
> the train. There were at least a dozen persons waiting ahead of him to get
> on but he felt that he was entitled to go in first because he's a prince of
> an African nation or something.
--keith
--
kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Steve Pope
May 28, 2012, 8:05:32 AM5/28/12
to
This is probably unrelated, but there seems to be a difference of
opinion as to whether certain actions, taken on the exit level
at North Berkeley station, constitute "cutting ahead of someone".
One may ascend from the track level by three paths -- one escalator,
and two stairways. The escalator is north of the stairways. One may then
exit by several paths -- the northmost single turnstile, and the southerly
group of several turnstiles.
To me, it is most natural that those alighting at the top of the
escalator proceed to the northmost turnstile (otherwise, they
would have to cut across a crowd of people), whereas those
alighting at the top of the two stairways would normally proceed
to the larger southerly group of turnstiles.
But for some reason, some persons arriving at the top of the
middle stairway (mostly bicyclists, although perhaps that is not
relevant) feel the need to press towards the northern turnstile,
and feel that anyone proceeding there from the escalator is
"cutting them off".
Even though for those persons, the escalator users, the northern
turnstile is the only turnstile reasonably within range.
Now, the BART designers did not make it easier, by placing these
pathways exactly where they are, but I wonder is users cannot
be counted upon to assess the situation and decide that a flow of
exiting passengers shall proceed towards an array of exits without
abnormally crossing in front of each others' paths, and further,
without asserting that someone "cut the line" just because they went
on a direct path from a stairway/escalator to their nearest
turnstile.
Too much to ask for, I suppose.
Steve
opinion as to whether certain actions, taken on the exit level
at North Berkeley station, constitute "cutting ahead of someone".
One may ascend from the track level by three paths -- one escalator,
and two stairways. The escalator is north of the stairways. One may then
exit by several paths -- the northmost single turnstile, and the southerly
group of several turnstiles.
To me, it is most natural that those alighting at the top of the
escalator proceed to the northmost turnstile (otherwise, they
would have to cut across a crowd of people), whereas those
alighting at the top of the two stairways would normally proceed
to the larger southerly group of turnstiles.
But for some reason, some persons arriving at the top of the
middle stairway (mostly bicyclists, although perhaps that is not
relevant) feel the need to press towards the northern turnstile,
and feel that anyone proceeding there from the escalator is
"cutting them off".
Even though for those persons, the escalator users, the northern
turnstile is the only turnstile reasonably within range.
Now, the BART designers did not make it easier, by placing these
pathways exactly where they are, but I wonder is users cannot
be counted upon to assess the situation and decide that a flow of
exiting passengers shall proceed towards an array of exits without
abnormally crossing in front of each others' paths, and further,
without asserting that someone "cut the line" just because they went
on a direct path from a stairway/escalator to their nearest
turnstile.
Too much to ask for, I suppose.
Steve
Kenneth M. Lin
May 28, 2012, 10:58:40 AM5/28/12
to
I often see people forming a line immediately in front of where the train
doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first. I
observed this during evening commute and must assume that many of these
"blockers" have been taking BART for a long time. And yet they failed to
develop common sense.
"Steve Pope" wrote in message news:jpvpmc$vnq$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...
doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first. I
observed this during evening commute and must assume that many of these
"blockers" have been taking BART for a long time. And yet they failed to
develop common sense.
"Steve Pope" wrote in message news:jpvpmc$vnq$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...
Kenneth M. Lin
May 28, 2012, 11:01:23 AM5/28/12
to
"Keith Keller" wrote in message
news:pjfb99x...@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us...
On 2012-05-28, Kenneth M. Lin <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native garb
> pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in and got in
> front of everyone and got on, even before people had the chance to get off
> the train. There were at least a dozen persons waiting ahead of him to
> get
> on but he felt that he was entitled to go in first because he's a prince
> of
> an African nation or something.
>
>Wow that is incredibly racist. Maybe the guy's just a jerk?
ignorance. However, he was in full garb and I thought someone here might
have also been cut off by him. I personally just couldn't believe that
someone pushing a cart still insisted on cutting everyone off and he almost
ran over one guy's foot.
And guess what, the train was full so he still had to stand till we got to
the City.
Peter Lawrence
May 28, 2012, 11:46:38 AM5/28/12
to
On 5/28/12 7:58 AM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>
> I often see people forming a line immediately in front of where the train
> doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first. I
> observed this during evening commute and must assume that many of these
> "blockers" have been taking BART for a long time. And yet they failed to
> develop common sense.
When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue *behind*
>
> I often see people forming a line immediately in front of where the train
> doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first. I
> observed this during evening commute and must assume that many of these
> "blockers" have been taking BART for a long time. And yet they failed to
> develop common sense.
the black tile that mark where the train doors will usually align with.
As long as the first person in line is not standing on top of the knobby
rubber black tiles, then there should be enough space for passengers to exit
the train to either side of the queue.
On Caltrain, there's no real standard etiquette, people tend to mob around
the door. But contributing to this problem is that the train will often
stop different locations along the platform causing passengers wanting to
board the train to move en masse to wherever that doors end up being.
That's said, many Caltrain regulars will then wait at either side of the
doors so the passengers disembarking the train can exit straight onto the
platform before turning left or right. But this isn't always the case and
tends to vary from station to station.
- Peter
Peter Lawrence
May 28, 2012, 11:54:59 AM5/28/12
to
far more common occurrence) are BART (and Caltrain) passengers who put their
stuff on the empty seat next to them and then be very reluctant to remove it
when you want to sit down on that seat. Then of course there are the
passengers without any extra baggage on a seat who sit down on the aisle
seat and are reluctant to get up (or just move over) so you can sit down on
the empty seat.
Eventually, they'll acquiesce but not until making a long face and acting
like you done them a major injustice.
- Peter
Keith Keller
May 28, 2012, 1:04:29 PM5/28/12
to
On 2012-05-28, Kenneth M. Lin <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> It wasn't my intention to use a person's ethnicity to indicate their
> ignorance. However, he was in full garb and I thought someone here might
> have also been cut off by him.
"African-American in native garb" means nothing to me. It'd be way
>
> It wasn't my intention to use a person's ethnicity to indicate their
> ignorance. However, he was in full garb and I thought someone here might
> have also been cut off by him.
better to describe his actual appearance (including his race), e.g.,
"African-American man in dirty ratty clothes with a black cart filled
with paper bags" or something like that. You'll notice that in my
example you could substitute any race and still provide a complete
description, whereas "Caucasian in native garb" is also meaningless.
> I personally just couldn't believe that
> someone pushing a cart still insisted on cutting everyone off and he almost
> ran over one guy's foot.
To be fair I've also seen many polite people on BART and Muni.
Kenneth M. Lin
May 28, 2012, 2:07:47 PM5/28/12
to
"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message news:jq074k$v7n$1...@dont-email.me...
>While I find the line cutting annoying, what I find to be more rude (and a
>far more common occurrence) are BART (and Caltrain) passengers who put
>their stuff on the empty seat next to them and then be very reluctant to
>remove it when you want to sit down on that seat. Then of course there are
>the passengers without any extra baggage on a seat who sit down on the
>aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just move over) so you can sit
>down on the empty seat.
>
>Eventually, they'll acquiesce but not until making a long face and acting
>like you done them a major injustice.
When I first moved to the Bay Area, I thought everyone will be well educated
>far more common occurrence) are BART (and Caltrain) passengers who put
>their stuff on the empty seat next to them and then be very reluctant to
>remove it when you want to sit down on that seat. Then of course there are
>the passengers without any extra baggage on a seat who sit down on the
>aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just move over) so you can sit
>down on the empty seat.
>
>Eventually, they'll acquiesce but not until making a long face and acting
>like you done them a major injustice.
and know their manners and how to co-exist with each others. I was terribly
wrong. I see school-age children think nothing of cutting in front of
everyone else and often their mothers are in tow.
I was watching a parade in Mission District yesterday and a Hispanic kid
just elbowed me in order get in front of me for a better view. I just
can't believe that a child that I have never met would feel that shoving in
front of me is acceptable. His mother was right next to him and she acted
like she didn’t see anything.
I totally understand how to behave inside a packed train in New York but I
have no ideas how people define their personal spaces in the Bay Area. I
guess most people still drive some of the time or only take BART
occasionally and they simply do not understand the rules, if there is one.
Peter Lawrence
May 28, 2012, 7:17:48 PM5/28/12
to
don't know how many grew up here in California, let alone in the Bay Area.
A good number of them appear to be transplants from other parts of the
country (or the world) who are here because of the jobs availability. But
the common denominator for most of them appear to be their age. The vast
majority of those exhibiting rude behavior tend to be under 40 if not under
30 by their looks.
(Note that most who appear to be recent immigrants (usually from South Asia
or the Far East) tend to be relatively well behaved, regardless their age.
In my observations, it's been mostly those from the U.S., Europe, or from
south of the border that tend to exhibit the bad behavior.)
- Peter
Steve Pope
May 28, 2012, 7:43:51 PM5/28/12
to
Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:
>When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue *behind*
>the black tile that mark where the train doors will usually align with.
Standard, but illogical. Passengers on the platform need to
>When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue *behind*
>the black tile that mark where the train doors will usually align with.
stand to one side of the door, in the direction opposite that
of the platform/station exit(s).
Thus for example, if you're waiting to board one of the first few cars
of an eastbay-bound train at Powell Street, it is natural to form a line
towards the edge of the door nearest the front of the train. That
way, passengers exiting the train can walk unimpeded towards their
station exit.
There is some ambiguity in the center cars in stations with multiple
exits. In such cases, it is best to stand back from the doors in cases
where exiting passengers will be heading both ways, or to stand not
in the direct line of a very nearby platform exit if there is one.
Standing DIRECTLY in front of a door passengers are exiting from
is very non-intuitive, especially if one is used to using transit
in London, New York etc.
>As long as the first person in line is not standing on top of the knobby
>rubber black tiles, then there should be enough space for passengers to exit
>the train to either side of the queue.
>On Caltrain, there's no real standard etiquette, people tend to mob around
>the door. But contributing to this problem is that the train will often
>stop different locations along the platform causing passengers wanting to
>board the train to move en masse to wherever that doors end up being.
>That's said, many Caltrain regulars will then wait at either side of the
>doors so the passengers disembarking the train can exit straight onto the
>platform before turning left or right.
Steve
Peter Lawrence
May 29, 2012, 1:47:25 AM5/29/12
to
On 5/28/12 4:43 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Standing DIRECTLY in front of a door passengers are exiting from
> is very non-intuitive, especially if one is used to using transit
> in London, New York etc.
This past month though, it seems that BART had taken steps to resolve this
>
> Standing DIRECTLY in front of a door passengers are exiting from
> is very non-intuitive, especially if one is used to using transit
> in London, New York etc.
problem. Lately � at *some* BART stations � BART trains have *NOT* been
stopping so their doors are perfectly aligned with the black knobby rubber
tiles. Instead the BART trains have been stopping so the doors are either
just to the left or the right of the black knobby rubber tiles. :)
- Peter
Kenneth M. Lin
May 29, 2012, 2:17:37 AM5/29/12
to
"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message news:jq06l0$s2v$1...@dont-email.me...
BART and assumed that this was the custom of the land.
> When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue *behind*
> the black tile that mark where the train doors will usually align with.
That's new. I have seen people forming two lines ever since I first took
> the black tile that mark where the train doors will usually align with.
BART and assumed that this was the custom of the land.
Peter Lawrence
May 29, 2012, 5:26:19 AM5/29/12
to
To me, I consider it a single queue, even though often, especially during
commute hours, it's two persons wide. During non-commute hours it can vary
from one or two persons wide, but I still consider it to be a single queue.
- Peter
David Kaye
Jun 2, 2012, 7:05:08 PM6/2/12
to
>I usually get on at El Cerrito Del Norte Station and if it's during morning
>commute time, a kid would just cut in front of me and get on the train
>ahead of everybody else like he's the President of the United States.
BART is made up of stuck-up commuters who think they're doing people a favor
>commute time, a kid would just cut in front of me and get on the train
>ahead of everybody else like he's the President of the United States.
by commuting to a job somewhere where they'd NEVER live.
It's funny because the SF Muni is often trashed for its lateness, crowded
conditions, and quality of passenger. And yet I've found Muni passengers to
be far friendlier and more accommodating than BART passengers.
When I had a broken arm I had to have it in a sling and keep it away from
being jostled. I often had to ask for a seat so that I wouldn't get pushed
and go into excruciating pain. On the Muni, hey, no problem. Even school
kids and gang members would get up for me.
BART? No deal. They acted as if I was trying to pull a fast one on them,
probably because my arm wasn't in a cast. I then realized that I'd rather
live in the inner city where people seemed to care about each other than in
the suburbs where they didn't.
David Kaye
Jun 2, 2012, 7:07:45 PM6/2/12
to
> I often see people forming a line immediately in front of where the train
> doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first.
This is where voice lessons come in handy. Learn to use your "Voice of
> doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the train first.
God", speaking deeply from your abdomen, in a strong, steady voice. Then
say, "PARDON me, I need to get out first." It's amazing how this will clear
the path.
The fact is that people will respond to a "voice of authority".
David Kaye
Jun 2, 2012, 7:11:09 PM6/2/12
to
"Peter Lawrence" <humm...@aol.com> wrote
> Then of course there are the passengers without any extra baggage on a
> seat who sit down on the aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just
> move over) so you can sit down on the empty seat.
This is where your "Voice of God" (previously mentioned) comes in handy
again. "PARDON me please, may I sit there?"
Yeah, you shouldn't have to do it, and it wouldn't happen on the Muni, but
we're talking BART here.
> Then of course there are the passengers without any extra baggage on a
> seat who sit down on the aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just
> move over) so you can sit down on the empty seat.
again. "PARDON me please, may I sit there?"
Yeah, you shouldn't have to do it, and it wouldn't happen on the Muni, but
we're talking BART here.
David Kaye
Jun 2, 2012, 7:12:59 PM6/2/12
to
"Keith Keller" <kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote
> "African-American in native garb" means nothing to me.
I could see "African in native garb", but I know an African-American who has
blond hair and blue eyes, born in the Republic of South Africa of American
and RSA parents. His "native garb" is usually jeans and a T-shirt with a
video game graphic on it.
> "African-American in native garb" means nothing to me.
blond hair and blue eyes, born in the Republic of South Africa of American
and RSA parents. His "native garb" is usually jeans and a T-shirt with a
video game graphic on it.
David Kaye
Jun 2, 2012, 7:15:33 PM6/2/12
to
> I was watching a parade in Mission District yesterday and a Hispanic kid
> just elbowed me in order get in front of me for a better view.
In your "Voice of God" voice, you say, "PARDON me, but I am standing here."
> just elbowed me in order get in front of me for a better view.
Generally, though, I just shine it on. Hell, you live in San Francisco for
God's sake! You live in paradise on earth, with the most interesting
cultural events and music and food on earth! You live in one of the most
beautiful places on earth! Why are you complaining?
Peter Lawrence
Jun 4, 2012, 5:27:37 PM6/4/12
to
On 6/2/12 4:11 PM, David Kaye wrote:
> "Peter Lawrence"<humm...@aol.com> wrote
>>
>> Then of course there are the passengers without any extra baggage on a
>> seat who sit down on the aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just
>> move over) so you can sit down on the empty seat.
>
> This is where your "Voice of God" (previously mentioned) comes in handy
> again. "PARDON me please, may I sit there?"
I don't need to use my voice of authority. I usually just need to politely
> "Peter Lawrence"<humm...@aol.com> wrote
>>
>> Then of course there are the passengers without any extra baggage on a
>> seat who sit down on the aisle seat and are reluctant to get up (or just
>> move over) so you can sit down on the empty seat.
>
> This is where your "Voice of God" (previously mentioned) comes in handy
> again. "PARDON me please, may I sit there?"
say, "Excuse me, I would like to seat here" while pointing at the seat. On
BART that has worked 100% of the time. Sometimes, they'll temporarily leave
their aisle seat so I can have the window seat, otherwise they'll slide over
to the window seat, letting me have the aisle seat.
Note: I never ask them: *may* I seat there? It's not a request.
(On the other hand, if I'm at a coffee shop and there's no vacant tables
available, I will sometimes ask someone if I can share their table. In
those instances, I'll ask: may I sit here? But not on Caltrain or BART.)
:)
- Peter
David Kaye
Jun 4, 2012, 5:55:41 PM6/4/12
to
"Peter Lawrence" <humm...@aol.com> wrote
> I don't need to use my voice of authority. I usually just need to
> politely say, "Excuse me, I would like to seat here" while pointing at the
> seat. On BART that has worked 100% of the time.
I've tried variations on this and it didn't work for me. Maybe it was the
way you and I were dressed.
> (On the other hand, if I'm at a coffee shop and there's no vacant tables
> available, I will sometimes ask someone if I can share their table. In
> those instances, I'll ask: may I sit here? But not on Caltrain or BART.)
I go out to Java Beach on Judah and Great Highway in SF. Almost always the
place is filled, so I ask, "Is it okay if we share?" I've never had a
refusal except when they were expecting someone to join them. After sitting
I've also managed to engage in some good conversations with folks.
This leads me to my #1 Problem Solver For All Humanity: Talk to people!
Rather than assume that people are going to be jerks or say no to a
situation, it works to talk with them. For instance, I just moved our
weekly games group from a cafe to a restaurant a week ago. People in our
group weren't sure if they wanted us. I talked with the manager on the
phone at length and he was all in favor of it. In fact, they rearranged the
tables before we arrived to accommodate us.
> I don't need to use my voice of authority. I usually just need to
> politely say, "Excuse me, I would like to seat here" while pointing at the
> seat. On BART that has worked 100% of the time.
way you and I were dressed.
> (On the other hand, if I'm at a coffee shop and there's no vacant tables
> available, I will sometimes ask someone if I can share their table. In
> those instances, I'll ask: may I sit here? But not on Caltrain or BART.)
place is filled, so I ask, "Is it okay if we share?" I've never had a
refusal except when they were expecting someone to join them. After sitting
I've also managed to engage in some good conversations with folks.
This leads me to my #1 Problem Solver For All Humanity: Talk to people!
Rather than assume that people are going to be jerks or say no to a
situation, it works to talk with them. For instance, I just moved our
weekly games group from a cafe to a restaurant a week ago. People in our
group weren't sure if they wanted us. I talked with the manager on the
phone at length and he was all in favor of it. In fact, they rearranged the
tables before we arrived to accommodate us.
Kenneth M. Lin
Jun 5, 2012, 8:23:33 PM6/5/12
to
"David Kaye" wrote in message news:jqe6q0$d8e$1...@dont-email.me...
educated and are never taught about manner.
David Kaye
Jun 6, 2012, 1:39:33 AM6/6/12
to
> I am not complaining. I am just disappointed that our youths are so
> poorly educated and are never taught about manner.
True, there are kids and adults who were never taught about putting others
> poorly educated and are never taught about manner.
before themselves. That's really what it's all about. I think that
American society's focus on individualism and greed rather than on community
and spreading the wealth is what's produced these last two generations of
selfish people.
That said, I have found that many/most of them really do know that they're
not doing the right thing by cutting in front of others, and when called on
it by someone perceived as more powerful, they're inclined to retreat into
civility.
Brad Allen
Jun 13, 2012, 1:34:20 PM6/13/12
to
" Today, at MacArthur Station, an African American Man in his native
" garb pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in
" and got in front of everyone and got on, even before people had the
" chance to get off the train. There were at least a dozen persons
" waiting ahead of him to get on but he felt that he was entitled to
" go in first because he's a prince of an African nation or something.
As long as there's seperate standards for African Americans/Blacks and
" garb pushing a cart, who was at the end of the line, just zoomed in
" and got in front of everyone and got on, even before people had the
" chance to get off the train. There were at least a dozen persons
" waiting ahead of him to get on but he felt that he was entitled to
" go in first because he's a prince of an African nation or something.
the rest of everyone else, blacks will feel entitled to do all sorts
of things wrong. Unfortunately, Sharpton, the Muslims, and racist
whites (usually the "progressive" type) have strongly instilled in
blacks the sense that they are extremely seperate from the rest of
society, and as a result, they are (seperate).
The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
It will take more than our lifetimes, so take a very long view. But
indeed, if you occasionally do a little thing here and there to that
end, it will very powerfully advance the issue (one small step at a
time). I've many times changed society and social norms all
throughout the country (and less often, the world) using these means,
so I know each individual can have a great impact (for progress, if
that's what you're trying to achieve). Of course, many others are
doing the same thing, so you have to really think hard to figure out
how lasting your particular change will be, and try to craft a
microchange that will be foundational, useful, relevent, helpful and
lasting. Usually this requires you to honestly understand your change
far better, and to honestly assess whether it's a correct change in
the first place, since the evolution of change tends to remove a lot
of the crap outright, and very often being honest to yourself is
EXTREMELY difficult. For instance, most trains are no good. That's
a hard lesson to a choo choo head. (I love trains, by the way --
who wouldn't -- all that metal! But they are not in any way useful
to human transportation, except for the ovens during purges, and
in wars being treated like cattle.)
One of the biggest things you yourself can do to stop black racism is
to not give them unique, special, seperate or superior access,
opportunity or treatment. If you consciously blind your outward
attitude and actions, it will usually blindside them and they will
want to fight you, but if you shell up (harden your exterior), then
that will come off as a compromise between becoming more like them
(the hardening) and treating them the same as everyone else. But,
then you have to bring it back to yourself, by not being a badass
hardass, and being a civil member of society. It is not actually
possible to do in any sort of "correct" way, but it's a sort of set of
thoughts that can allow you to strategically handle some situations in
a manner in which you can think of ways to treat them as "equals", or
at least not "specially", and find ways to do so safely that make them
really think hard about how to become less racist. More often than
not, they will refuse to be unracist, prefering to be special and
seperate, but sometimes on the fringes they will not be that way.
Where you find blacks that aren't racist tend to be in mixed municipal
settings in the case of school children that are subsumed and
assimilitated into the mass culture of public schools. This doesn't
always work, but sometimes the children will not be racist, or at
least less racist, until they get older and have to meet the realities
of the real world (parents, family, neighbors, welfare, gangs, and
employment).
Brad Allen
Jun 13, 2012, 1:45:16 PM6/13/12
to
In article <uemdnWcxM7t8D17S...@giganews.com>,
disembark. I've actually seen this done in some places where civil
people use mass transit. The typical method is to form one or two
lines at the side of the exit area, allowing a path out of the vehicle
that doesn't cross the line(s). It's very obvious what is going on,
so even stupid people wouldn't have trouble handling it. And it's not
complicated, and it is definitely very efficient.
Kenneth M. Lin <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
" I often see people forming a line immediately in front of where the
" train doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the
" train first. I observed this during evening commute and must assume
" that many of these "blockers" have been taking BART for a long time.
" And yet they failed to develop common sense.
Then they should form the line in such a manner as to allow people to
" train doors would be and not giving people any room to get off the
" train first. I observed this during evening commute and must assume
" that many of these "blockers" have been taking BART for a long time.
" And yet they failed to develop common sense.
disembark. I've actually seen this done in some places where civil
people use mass transit. The typical method is to form one or two
lines at the side of the exit area, allowing a path out of the vehicle
that doesn't cross the line(s). It's very obvious what is going on,
so even stupid people wouldn't have trouble handling it. And it's not
complicated, and it is definitely very efficient.
Brad Allen
Jun 13, 2012, 1:57:37 PM6/13/12
to
In article <jq12jn$gih$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,
method that would work would be to stand BEHIND the black tile TOWARD
the side of the tile that is AWAY from the most logical/used exits.
You could even shift your bodyweight more to the corner or past the
corner of the tile once someone's queued behind you already, being
careful not to lose your space. That's a lot of effort, though. It
also would not work where there are multiple good directions, and
would be horrible for the person trying to go the OTHER way.
A better transition may be to just ignore that stupid standard and do
it the right away: stand aside.
" Thus for example, if you're waiting to board one of the first few
" cars of an eastbay-bound train at Powell Street, it is natural to
" form a line towards the edge of the door nearest the front of the
" train. That way, passengers exiting the train can walk unimpeded
" towards their station exit.
Right
" There is some ambiguity in the center cars in stations with multiple
" exits. In such cases, it is best to stand back from the doors in
" cases where exiting passengers will be heading both ways, or to
" stand not in the direct line of a very nearby platform exit if there
" is one.
While the Caltrain method of standing aside is superior here, the BART
standard impedes logic and sets bad precedent, so you sort of have to
use the above Steve Pope judgement call.
" Standing DIRECTLY in front of a door passengers are exiting from is
" very non-intuitive, especially if one is used to using transit in
" London, New York etc.
Absolutely. That is just wrong. Using the sewer system (excuse me,
subway system) in NYC, you stand ASIDE. And I've done so tens of
thousands of times, correctly, and with standard.
" >As long as the first person in line is not standing on top of the
" >knobby rubber black tiles, then there should be enough space for
" >passengers to exit the train to either side of the queue.
"
" That's a little close.
Agreed
" >On Caltrain, there's no real standard etiquette, people tend to mob
" >around the door. But contributing to this problem is that the
" >train will often stop different locations along the platform
" >causing passengers wanting to board the train to move en masse to
" >wherever that doors end up being.
"
" >That's said, many Caltrain regulars will then wait at either side
" >of the doors so the passengers disembarking the train can exit
" >straight onto the platform before turning left or right.
"
" The last part makes sense.
Yup
The main problem with standing ASIDE is that it is NEAR the road, and
one could get run over or hit. One must be cautious to stand ASIDE
but AWAY from the road. (In this case, a rail road.) There are
plenty of examples of people being pushed into the road by criminals.
And there are a few examples of people falling into the road or
spilling into the road.
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
" Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:
"
" >When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue
" >*behind* the black tile that mark where the train doors will
" >usually align with.
"
" Standard, but illogical. Passengers on the platform need to
" stand to one side of the door, in the direction opposite that
" of the platform/station exit(s).
I agree. (I didn't know BART riders were so bad.) A transitional
" Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:
"
" >When using BART, the standard etiquette is to form a single queue
" >*behind* the black tile that mark where the train doors will
" >usually align with.
"
" Standard, but illogical. Passengers on the platform need to
" stand to one side of the door, in the direction opposite that
" of the platform/station exit(s).
method that would work would be to stand BEHIND the black tile TOWARD
the side of the tile that is AWAY from the most logical/used exits.
You could even shift your bodyweight more to the corner or past the
corner of the tile once someone's queued behind you already, being
careful not to lose your space. That's a lot of effort, though. It
also would not work where there are multiple good directions, and
would be horrible for the person trying to go the OTHER way.
A better transition may be to just ignore that stupid standard and do
it the right away: stand aside.
" Thus for example, if you're waiting to board one of the first few
" cars of an eastbay-bound train at Powell Street, it is natural to
" form a line towards the edge of the door nearest the front of the
" train. That way, passengers exiting the train can walk unimpeded
" towards their station exit.
" There is some ambiguity in the center cars in stations with multiple
" exits. In such cases, it is best to stand back from the doors in
" cases where exiting passengers will be heading both ways, or to
" stand not in the direct line of a very nearby platform exit if there
" is one.
standard impedes logic and sets bad precedent, so you sort of have to
use the above Steve Pope judgement call.
" Standing DIRECTLY in front of a door passengers are exiting from is
" very non-intuitive, especially if one is used to using transit in
" London, New York etc.
subway system) in NYC, you stand ASIDE. And I've done so tens of
thousands of times, correctly, and with standard.
" >As long as the first person in line is not standing on top of the
" >knobby rubber black tiles, then there should be enough space for
" >passengers to exit the train to either side of the queue.
"
" That's a little close.
" >On Caltrain, there's no real standard etiquette, people tend to mob
" >around the door. But contributing to this problem is that the
" >train will often stop different locations along the platform
" >causing passengers wanting to board the train to move en masse to
" >wherever that doors end up being.
"
" >That's said, many Caltrain regulars will then wait at either side
" >of the doors so the passengers disembarking the train can exit
" >straight onto the platform before turning left or right.
"
" The last part makes sense.
The main problem with standing ASIDE is that it is NEAR the road, and
one could get run over or hit. One must be cautious to stand ASIDE
but AWAY from the road. (In this case, a rail road.) There are
plenty of examples of people being pushed into the road by criminals.
And there are a few examples of people falling into the road or
spilling into the road.
Brad Allen
Jun 13, 2012, 2:14:28 PM6/13/12
to
" I totally understand how to behave inside a packed train in New York
" but I have no ideas how people define their personal spaces in the
" Bay Area.
They are highly different. Having spent a lot of time in both (most
" but I have no ideas how people define their personal spaces in the
" Bay Area.
my life in California and 7 years in NYC), I prefer the NYC
methodologies by a very wide margin. But they are so different it is
rather hard to explain outright without reexamining them carefully and
taking notes. But from what I recall, I noticed a few things: First,
that the space in NYC is smaller, and often the body is not considered
sacred and untouchable like it is in California. Second, that the
space in NYC is otherwise individual and not to be shared or violated.
This arises in a comprehension difficulty for those who don't see it
as a whole made of its integral parts, since they might see a conflict
between those two things. But the idea, stated in a highly exagerated
(and therefore incorrect) way, is that while someone may have sex with
you, they may not take your soul, nor your actual spot, keeping in
mind that your spot can move, but it cannot disappear or shrink.
Don't think I exagerated much. Rape is not accepted like it is in
Japan, and I've never seen a sex act in a subway, but that's about it.
So, in California, I find people to be less precise about holding the
size of their space and making certain their space makes sense, but
"more" precise (it's not actually more precise, just they don't allow
it) about not touching another person.
I wonder how this relates to "hold your ground" thought processes.
Since California is generally less dense (but becoming more dense),
there's more places to run away, so if you don't like your space being
taken, you can take another space more easily than in NYC. Also,
since you have less neighbors, you tend to know them better, and you
can select your intimate partners more carefully and conservatively.
Those things are less true in NYC.
As California gets denser, we need to look at, and often go towards,
the methodologies used in other dense areas, and allow ourselves to
find our own path toward them that is reasonable.
BTW, I usually (but not always) advocate lower density, but that
doesn't seem to be what's happening, and of course, we have pockets of
high density.
David Kaye
Jun 14, 2012, 2:15:39 PM6/14/12
to
"Brad Allen" <q...@sonic.net> wrote
> The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
> It will take more than our lifetimes, so take a very long view.
It won't take that long. Whenever some black person calls me white, I
correct them. I tell them I'm Italian. "But that's white!" And then I
tell them the story of how my Italian ancestors got into the garbage
collection business because nobody would hire Italians during the 1880s and
90s when my forebearers arrived. I also mention about being called "dago"
and "wop" and various other epithets growing up.
The response is interesting. They look shocked that there could possibly be
someone else who could have suffered as much or more than they did.
I had a black roommate once. One evening we watched a PBS documentary on
the Irish in America. He actually told me, no lie, that he had no idea that
there were "different kinds of whites". He just though of black, white,
Asian, and Latino. He was shocked that people who looked as white as Irish
do could possibly have faced discrimination! He then asked me exactly who
"the whites" were. I suggested that the "real whites", the ones who hadn't
faced discrimination were English and Germans. That those were the people
who had trashed everyone else.
Whenever it's possible to dismount someone from their high horse, I'm all in
favor of doing so.
> The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
> It will take more than our lifetimes, so take a very long view.
correct them. I tell them I'm Italian. "But that's white!" And then I
tell them the story of how my Italian ancestors got into the garbage
collection business because nobody would hire Italians during the 1880s and
90s when my forebearers arrived. I also mention about being called "dago"
and "wop" and various other epithets growing up.
The response is interesting. They look shocked that there could possibly be
someone else who could have suffered as much or more than they did.
I had a black roommate once. One evening we watched a PBS documentary on
the Irish in America. He actually told me, no lie, that he had no idea that
there were "different kinds of whites". He just though of black, white,
Asian, and Latino. He was shocked that people who looked as white as Irish
do could possibly have faced discrimination! He then asked me exactly who
"the whites" were. I suggested that the "real whites", the ones who hadn't
faced discrimination were English and Germans. That those were the people
who had trashed everyone else.
Whenever it's possible to dismount someone from their high horse, I'm all in
favor of doing so.
spamtrap1888
Jun 15, 2012, 10:59:14 AM6/15/12
to
On Jun 14, 11:15 am, "David Kaye" <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Brad Allen" <q...@sonic.net> wrote
>
> > The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> > opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
> > It will take more than our lifetimes, so take a very long view.
>
> It won't take that long. Whenever some black person calls me white, I
> correct them. I tell them I'm Italian. "But that's white!" And then I
> tell them the story of how my Italian ancestors got into the garbage
> collection business because nobody would hire Italians during the 1880s and
> 90s when my forebearers arrived. I also mention about being called "dago"
> and "wop" and various other epithets growing up.
Have you ever checked out the ellisisland.org site? The department of
> "Brad Allen" <q...@sonic.net> wrote
>
> > The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> > opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
> > It will take more than our lifetimes, so take a very long view.
>
> It won't take that long. Whenever some black person calls me white, I
> correct them. I tell them I'm Italian. "But that's white!" And then I
> tell them the story of how my Italian ancestors got into the garbage
> collection business because nobody would hire Italians during the 1880s and
> 90s when my forebearers arrived. I also mention about being called "dago"
> and "wop" and various other epithets growing up.
immigration distinguished between Northern Italians (presumably cool)
and Southern Italians (more teeming masses of the great unwashed, I
suppose).
Very difficult to find my ancestors, by the way, because of
transcription errors. The only relative I'm sure of had his name
neatly typed -- because he was on a list of those detained for
investigation. They thought he was a Contract Laborer, which was
taboo. But the matter was speedily resolved (the number of breakfasts,
dinners, and suppers received while in detention were carefully
tabulated for all detainees, and he had had only one of each).
Keith Keller
Jun 15, 2012, 11:12:50 AM6/15/12
to
On 2012-06-13, Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
s/blacks/people/g;
>
> The best you can do, is to stop racism when you have the safe
> opportunity to do so, by getting blacks to be incremently less racist.
0 new messages