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Clipper is heaven! Went around the bay today with it
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Brad Allen
May 11, 2012, 1:41:28 AM5/11/12
to
My car was crashed into and totalled so I sold it to Pick and Pull a
few weeks ago, and I'm still waiting to get my new one. Meanwhile
life marches on, and it was time for me to go get some medical
screenings in the Big City. So, off I went.
I had learned around one week ago exactly for the first time that I
need a Clipper card when I saw the ad on the ground in front of the
Santa Clara County VTA office at 1st & Santa Clara Sts. I used the
Kiosk web browser there to find out I could purchase one at Walgreens,
and proceeded to do so. I looked for and tried the machine on the
platform. I rode Light Rail and that was it -- $2.
Today, I boarded my neighborhood bus, and had to ask him where to
swipe it. $2. Then, I got downtown and did errands. I got on
another bus to Cahill Street Station of Caltrain ($2). At Caltrain, I
looked for the clipper instructions, and followed them. It deducted
$8.75, the maximum cost of a trip from there. When I got off the Baby
Bullet at the last stop, I swiped again, and it said $0.00 refunded.
I got on an N Judah, and asked him where to swipe it. He pointed
behind him near the doorway. The MUNI trains have them at every
entrance area. $2.
When I got off that, I went to my appointment. Turns out I got a
referral to somewhere else. I saw a bunch of F's rolling down Market,
so I hopped on one, and this time I found the Clipper terminal on that
historic trolly and beeped it out. $0.00.
I then got off at Van Ness and trotted over for a Van Ness bus. In
San Francisco, the MUNI buses allow you to get on and off any entrance
now with the Clipper card, like in any POP (Proof Of Payment) area.
This is awesome. I love this. Great improvement! Ok, so I got on
the back, and there was a Clipper terminal there. $0.00.
I got off at my destination, and went to my new appointment. When
that was over, friends called and I had to meet them in Union Square.
I hopped on a Geary bus on O'Farrel at the front because it was the
only door still open when I ran to get it, and $0.00 was charged. I
got off at the right spot and my friends greeted me immediately :)
(Thank you cell phones.)
We conducted our business (which was failing to rent a hotel :( ), and
then we decended into the subway, to take BART. They had to buy
tickets, but I used my Clipper Card, this time finding it on the top
of the turnstile (um, I lived in NYC 7 years --- entry gate charge
thingie). It beeped and I didn't see what it said, but it didn't
deduct anything I think. The gate opened and I proceeded to my
trains. Some time later, in Fremont, I deboarded. I then went
downstairs to the terminal to exit, and the one that was green that I
selected the clipper card didn't read at all despite many attempts.
Finally, I found another green one, and tried that, and it belched
"$5.60".
I got outside to the VTA #181 bus area, and when the bus came (pretty
quickly), I boarded. The bus sign announced "Adults $4". The Clipper
machine beeped at me "$2.00". I rode that to my neighborhood bus stop
at Civic Center, got off, waited 15 minutes for my last bus (lucky!),
and then got on it. Clipper told me "$0.00".
So, in all today I spent $22.35 using the clipper card, and didn't
have to deal with any more fare garbage! I love this clipper card
thing.
Problems:
1. It doesn't always work (see above at Powell St BART station)
2. It is losable
3. It can track my movements
4. It doesn't have a visual display of the balance
Other notes:
Caltrain (baby bullet) is extremely bumpy and scary (at least on the
last car near the engine) between San Jose and Mountain View. Almost
no one rides this section on train #365.
Last time I rode Caltrain, there were AC outlets on every car in
convenient places. I searched the ENTIRE train, top to bottom, front
to back, and found ZERO this time. This severely impacted the quality
of ride, and severely intefered with the lives of me and many of my
friends due to unusually incapable communications. I had planned to
charge on the way, and brought my charger. But, there was no place to
charge, and my phone immediately died and we missed a lot of things
that we needed to do, and lots of money, time, and events were lost.
Not cool at all.
Starting at Mountain View, the passengers picked up.
#181 takes forever to get to the freeway, but once there, it goes
direct and fast. I'm very happy with that. We're spending too much
on BART, but once they make it go direct to San Jose, that will be way
better in many ways (other than prudent financial sense).
Taking mass transit still sucks raw eggs, and I had to avoid many
vagrants at many locations, but all in all I had a very good time
today using mass transit except for the lack of AC outlets to charge
my phone and the lack of 24 hour service everywhere. I was in a good
mood, though, so that had a lot to do with it.
Clipper Card made it WAY WAY WAY better than it ever has been before!
Good job Clipper Card.
Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
Not cool at all not having AC outlets. If you want to buy me a new
phone, go ahead. But I knew they had AC outlets -- only they took
them away!!!
Using Mass Transit is always a financial loss. If I had a car, that
money would have been saved. Now, it's lost forever. Never use Mass
Transit.
But, if The Man makes you use Mass Transit anyway despite it being
TOTALLY FINANCIALLY STUPID as you can see above, then definitely use
Clipper Card!!
few weeks ago, and I'm still waiting to get my new one. Meanwhile
life marches on, and it was time for me to go get some medical
screenings in the Big City. So, off I went.
I had learned around one week ago exactly for the first time that I
need a Clipper card when I saw the ad on the ground in front of the
Santa Clara County VTA office at 1st & Santa Clara Sts. I used the
Kiosk web browser there to find out I could purchase one at Walgreens,
and proceeded to do so. I looked for and tried the machine on the
platform. I rode Light Rail and that was it -- $2.
Today, I boarded my neighborhood bus, and had to ask him where to
swipe it. $2. Then, I got downtown and did errands. I got on
another bus to Cahill Street Station of Caltrain ($2). At Caltrain, I
looked for the clipper instructions, and followed them. It deducted
$8.75, the maximum cost of a trip from there. When I got off the Baby
Bullet at the last stop, I swiped again, and it said $0.00 refunded.
I got on an N Judah, and asked him where to swipe it. He pointed
behind him near the doorway. The MUNI trains have them at every
entrance area. $2.
When I got off that, I went to my appointment. Turns out I got a
referral to somewhere else. I saw a bunch of F's rolling down Market,
so I hopped on one, and this time I found the Clipper terminal on that
historic trolly and beeped it out. $0.00.
I then got off at Van Ness and trotted over for a Van Ness bus. In
San Francisco, the MUNI buses allow you to get on and off any entrance
now with the Clipper card, like in any POP (Proof Of Payment) area.
This is awesome. I love this. Great improvement! Ok, so I got on
the back, and there was a Clipper terminal there. $0.00.
I got off at my destination, and went to my new appointment. When
that was over, friends called and I had to meet them in Union Square.
I hopped on a Geary bus on O'Farrel at the front because it was the
only door still open when I ran to get it, and $0.00 was charged. I
got off at the right spot and my friends greeted me immediately :)
(Thank you cell phones.)
We conducted our business (which was failing to rent a hotel :( ), and
then we decended into the subway, to take BART. They had to buy
tickets, but I used my Clipper Card, this time finding it on the top
of the turnstile (um, I lived in NYC 7 years --- entry gate charge
thingie). It beeped and I didn't see what it said, but it didn't
deduct anything I think. The gate opened and I proceeded to my
trains. Some time later, in Fremont, I deboarded. I then went
downstairs to the terminal to exit, and the one that was green that I
selected the clipper card didn't read at all despite many attempts.
Finally, I found another green one, and tried that, and it belched
"$5.60".
I got outside to the VTA #181 bus area, and when the bus came (pretty
quickly), I boarded. The bus sign announced "Adults $4". The Clipper
machine beeped at me "$2.00". I rode that to my neighborhood bus stop
at Civic Center, got off, waited 15 minutes for my last bus (lucky!),
and then got on it. Clipper told me "$0.00".
So, in all today I spent $22.35 using the clipper card, and didn't
have to deal with any more fare garbage! I love this clipper card
thing.
Problems:
1. It doesn't always work (see above at Powell St BART station)
2. It is losable
3. It can track my movements
4. It doesn't have a visual display of the balance
Other notes:
Caltrain (baby bullet) is extremely bumpy and scary (at least on the
last car near the engine) between San Jose and Mountain View. Almost
no one rides this section on train #365.
Last time I rode Caltrain, there were AC outlets on every car in
convenient places. I searched the ENTIRE train, top to bottom, front
to back, and found ZERO this time. This severely impacted the quality
of ride, and severely intefered with the lives of me and many of my
friends due to unusually incapable communications. I had planned to
charge on the way, and brought my charger. But, there was no place to
charge, and my phone immediately died and we missed a lot of things
that we needed to do, and lots of money, time, and events were lost.
Not cool at all.
Starting at Mountain View, the passengers picked up.
#181 takes forever to get to the freeway, but once there, it goes
direct and fast. I'm very happy with that. We're spending too much
on BART, but once they make it go direct to San Jose, that will be way
better in many ways (other than prudent financial sense).
Taking mass transit still sucks raw eggs, and I had to avoid many
vagrants at many locations, but all in all I had a very good time
today using mass transit except for the lack of AC outlets to charge
my phone and the lack of 24 hour service everywhere. I was in a good
mood, though, so that had a lot to do with it.
Clipper Card made it WAY WAY WAY better than it ever has been before!
Good job Clipper Card.
Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
Not cool at all not having AC outlets. If you want to buy me a new
phone, go ahead. But I knew they had AC outlets -- only they took
them away!!!
Using Mass Transit is always a financial loss. If I had a car, that
money would have been saved. Now, it's lost forever. Never use Mass
Transit.
But, if The Man makes you use Mass Transit anyway despite it being
TOTALLY FINANCIALLY STUPID as you can see above, then definitely use
Clipper Card!!
Brad Allen
May 11, 2012, 1:46:00 AM5/11/12
to
Clarifications:
- It failed to work on an exit turnstile at Fremont BART (not Powell St
like I said)
- The bus I boarded in SJ Civic Center was the last bus of the day to my
home. Also that it was only 15 minutes was nice. Those were both lucky.
- It failed to work on an exit turnstile at Fremont BART (not Powell St
like I said)
- The bus I boarded in SJ Civic Center was the last bus of the day to my
home. Also that it was only 15 minutes was nice. Those were both lucky.
van...@vsta.org
May 11, 2012, 12:06:50 PM5/11/12
to
Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
> on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
> friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
Making yourself utterly dependent on a plug being available on transit when
> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
> on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
> friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
that much money on the line is silly. There's tons of USB battery packs on
the market, some even have integrated solar panels. And they cost a tiny
fraction of what you say you've lost. Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you
can shake your finger at Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to home for
the real mistake here.
--
Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html
Brad Allen
May 11, 2012, 3:12:52 PM5/11/12
to
In article <a14roq...@mid.individual.net>, <van...@vsta.org> wrote:
" Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
" > Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my
" > phone on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread
" > among my friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain
" > for that.
"
" Making yourself utterly dependent on a plug being available on
" transit when that much money on the line is silly. There's tons of
" USB battery packs on the market, some even have integrated solar
" panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what you say you've lost.
" Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can shake your finger at
" Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to home for the real mistake
" here.
I'd have to agree. I'm going to go buy one right now. Ironically, I
" Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
" > Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my
" > phone on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread
" > among my friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain
" > for that.
"
" Making yourself utterly dependent on a plug being available on
" transit when that much money on the line is silly. There's tons of
" USB battery packs on the market, some even have integrated solar
" panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what you say you've lost.
" Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can shake your finger at
" Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to home for the real mistake
" here.
almost bought one ($29.99) by Energizer from Walgreens on Tuesday, but
because I considered the 1,000 mAh to be "less than the battery of my
own phone", I thought it was silly. Not so any more! But, now that I
have the option to think ahead, I'm going to go to Fry's.
Also, I'm considering leaving my phone at home today to charge my
backup batteries in a gamble that it's more important for future dates
than today. Since I have no important phone calls scheduled for
today, that's a pretty good gamble. But, I'm not really sure about
that too. I already have two batteries fully charged.
Sigh. Being carless and batteryless is a lethal combination. I don't
know if I would have caught this error of mine in my youth, but as an
adult, I have this sort of faith that things will "just work out"
somehow despite them not going as originally planned, and sometimes I
don't go through enough fortification. When I was young, I always
wanted to fortify everything, and I never got anything done as a
result. Interestingly, many of the things I fortified 35 years ago
are still standing today, whereas I put the effort of permanence in
only half the projects I do today, and the result is half the stuff
doesn't last that long.
Today I found out about some important scheduling I have to do that
because I couldn't make the call yesterday, will now conflict with
other dates. The ramifications are snowballing. Sheesh. I was able
to arrest that one, but just barely, and even then, by a slip of the
tongue by the other party. Not a fun way to recover a power error.
Peter Lawrence
May 11, 2012, 5:46:05 PM5/11/12
to
On 5/10/12 10:41 PM, Brad Allen wrote:
>
> Last time I rode Caltrain, there were AC outlets on every car in
> convenient places. I searched the ENTIRE train, top to bottom, front
> to back, and found ZERO this time. This severely impacted the quality
> of ride, and severely intefered with the lives of me and many of my
> friends due to unusually incapable communications. I had planned to
> charge on the way, and brought my charger. But, there was no place to
> charge, and my phone immediately died and we missed a lot of things
> that we needed to do, and lots of money, time, and events were lost.
> Not cool at all.
Caltrain hasn't removed any A/C outlets from their passenger cars. I've
>
> Last time I rode Caltrain, there were AC outlets on every car in
> convenient places. I searched the ENTIRE train, top to bottom, front
> to back, and found ZERO this time. This severely impacted the quality
> of ride, and severely intefered with the lives of me and many of my
> friends due to unusually incapable communications. I had planned to
> charge on the way, and brought my charger. But, there was no place to
> charge, and my phone immediately died and we missed a lot of things
> that we needed to do, and lots of money, time, and events were lost.
> Not cool at all.
been riding Caltrain for years. The thing is not every Caltrain passenger
car has A/C outlets. Only the newer, Bombardier BiLevel coaches too.
The older Nippon Sharyo Gallery Cars don't.
So it depends on what type of passenger cars your train's five-car consist
has to determine if you'll find an A/C outlet on them. And even on the
Bombardier BiLevel coaches, most of the A/C outlets are only located by the
seats that have a table in front of them. The coach seats with no tables
usually don't have an A/C outlet either.
- Peter
Peter Lawrence
May 11, 2012, 5:49:49 PM5/11/12
to
On 5/11/12 12:12 PM, Brad Allen wrote:
> In article<a14roq...@mid.individual.net>,<van...@vsta.org> wrote:
> " Brad Allen<q...@sonic.net> wrote:
> "> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my
> "> phone on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread
> "> among my friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain
> "> for that.
> "
> " Making yourself utterly dependent on a plug being available on
> " transit when that much money on the line is silly. There's tons of
> " USB battery packs on the market, some even have integrated solar
> " panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what you say you've lost.
> " Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can shake your finger at
> " Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to home for the real mistake
> " here.
>
> I'd have to agree. I'm going to go buy one right now. Ironically, I
> almost bought one ($29.99) by Energizer from Walgreens on Tuesday, but
> because I considered the 1,000 mAh to be "less than the battery of my
> own phone", I thought it was silly. Not so any more! But, now that I
> have the option to think ahead, I'm going to go to Fry's.
>
> Also, I'm considering leaving my phone at home today to charge my
> backup batteries in a gamble that it's more important for future dates
> than today. Since I have no important phone calls scheduled for
> today, that's a pretty good gamble. But, I'm not really sure about
> that too. I already have two batteries fully charged.
Don't know what phone you use, but I prefer to use phones that has
> In article<a14roq...@mid.individual.net>,<van...@vsta.org> wrote:
> " Brad Allen<q...@sonic.net> wrote:
> "> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my
> "> phone on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread
> "> among my friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain
> "> for that.
> "
> " Making yourself utterly dependent on a plug being available on
> " transit when that much money on the line is silly. There's tons of
> " USB battery packs on the market, some even have integrated solar
> " panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what you say you've lost.
> " Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can shake your finger at
> " Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to home for the real mistake
> " here.
>
> I'd have to agree. I'm going to go buy one right now. Ironically, I
> almost bought one ($29.99) by Energizer from Walgreens on Tuesday, but
> because I considered the 1,000 mAh to be "less than the battery of my
> own phone", I thought it was silly. Not so any more! But, now that I
> have the option to think ahead, I'm going to go to Fry's.
>
> Also, I'm considering leaving my phone at home today to charge my
> backup batteries in a gamble that it's more important for future dates
> than today. Since I have no important phone calls scheduled for
> today, that's a pretty good gamble. But, I'm not really sure about
> that too. I already have two batteries fully charged.
user-replaceable batteries, like my original Motorola Droid phone does.
That first thing I did when I bought that phone was to order a spare battery
(plus a separate Motorola battery charger that can charge the spare battery
without it having to be inserted into the phone). It has saved my bacon
many of times (having a charged spare batter on me).
- Peter
Brad Allen
May 11, 2012, 8:36:20 PM5/11/12
to
" > " There's tons of USB battery packs on the market, some even have
" > " integrated solar panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what
" > " you say you've lost. Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can
" > " shake your finger at Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to
" > " home for the real mistake here.
" >
" > I'd have to agree. I'm going to go buy one right now.
" > Ironically, I almost bought one ($29.99) by Energizer from
" > Walgreens on Tuesday, but because I considered the 1,000 mAh to be
" > "less than the battery of my own phone", I thought it was silly.
" > Not so any more! But, now that I have the option to think ahead,
" > I'm going to go to Fry's.
Fry's had a 6000 mAh USB battery pack made in China for $60 and a 2400
" > " integrated solar panels. And they cost a tiny fraction of what
" > " you say you've lost. Penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, you can
" > " shake your finger at Caltrain. But I'd look a little closer to
" > " home for the real mistake here.
" >
" > I'd have to agree. I'm going to go buy one right now.
" > Ironically, I almost bought one ($29.99) by Energizer from
" > Walgreens on Tuesday, but because I considered the 1,000 mAh to be
" > "less than the battery of my own phone", I thought it was silly.
" > Not so any more! But, now that I have the option to think ahead,
" > I'm going to go to Fry's.
mAh USB battery pack made in Taiwan and designed in the SF bay area
for $30, so I got the latter. With the as-manufactured charge
(probably a full charge), it kept my phone charged, going from about
46% charge to about 58% charge for about 3 hours before running out of
juice, and I made it home early with 3% left battery on my phone. I
hardly used my phone and I kept my errands short, so this wasn't much
of a success story. But, I'll find a way to make it work for me.
Added benefit is it will work for anyone -- not just me. So when
we're in the wild and the need arises, I can go "bam!" and we're all
connected.
" Don't know what phone you use, but I prefer to use phones that has
" user-replaceable batteries, like my original Motorola Droid phone
" does. That first thing I did when I bought that phone was to order a
" spare battery (plus a separate Motorola battery charger that can
" charge the spare battery without it having to be inserted into the
" phone). It has saved my bacon many of times (having a charged spare
" batter on me).
stand-alone chargers. Both stand-alone chargers have stopped working.
I haven't had time to swap in and out the batteries while sleeping
(since I'm usualy asleep when that happens). And eventually they all
ran down. Plus, the poor little batteries are wearing out.
I rode a lot of buses today, and a light rail twice. Everywhere I
went, I noticed that there were almost no modern-day incentives to
ride the bus, such as wifi, USB power ports, smart phone bus/light
rail tracking tools, etc.. It was pathetic as all get-out.
I toured the Cahill Street station once again. I haven't done that in
9 years. Some more new things: I used the light rail on the other
side of the tracks. There's no more Caltrain station agents.
As of May 26, 2012, a new company is running Caltrain. Everyone
remember the delay (was it an hour, or a half day?) of Amtrak filling
out paperwork the first day of their taking over Caltrain from
Southern Pacific, and the trains not rolling, despite them leaving on
time every day prior for a century beforehand? And all those nice old
ticket collectors that left and got replaced by Amtrak jerks. I
wonder what new crap this new company is going to cause. I'm sure
they've heard the horror stories and don't want to repeat them again.
It's the same operator as ACE (Altamont Commuter Express, which goes
from San Jose to Stockton via Altamont Pass). Today while I was
trying to figure out if ACE went to Tracy where my friend is at who
wants to see me, I saw the conductor nicely helping people out to
direct them where they had to get on the train for their destinations.
He was very nice and helped me get an information sheet from them
showing their schedule and stations. (I finally found a copy in the
station later once I knew where to look, but until that point, I
hadn't found any such things.) Obviously, so far, they seem to know
how to try to get things done at ACE, for their little
3-train-a-day-each-way operation (granted they go twice as far as
Caltrain, so it's more like 6 Caltrain trains each way). That train
left a few seconds before schedule, so they seem to be wanting to show
they're not up for hanky panky in terms of that! I'd love to know
some of the history of that company, but it's moot, since we'll learn
first hand how they do now come the end of May anyway.
I felt like I was going down the spiral of dispair and misery and
failure being stuck on mass transit today. By 5PM I had accomplished
what I usually accomplish by 8:30AM, and my choices, options, and
level of success are all capped and limited.
Kenneth M. Lin
May 13, 2012, 2:29:27 AM5/13/12
to
You are very lucky. When I first rode Caltrain, I couldn't figure out what
they meant by "tag on, tag off." Ironically, at the top of their Millbrae
station there's a non-functioning tagging station so that made it even more
confusing.
"Brad Allen" wrote in message
news:4faca688$0$16147$742e...@news.sonic.net...
they meant by "tag on, tag off." Ironically, at the top of their Millbrae
station there's a non-functioning tagging station so that made it even more
confusing.
"Brad Allen" wrote in message
news:4faca688$0$16147$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Brad Allen
May 14, 2012, 11:14:45 AM5/14/12
to
In article <P_ednSxASbaQyDLS...@giganews.com>,
cash registers for when the power went out. Now I think they have
backup generators. It seems like Clipper Card readers are made in
China, because an immense number of them don't work right. Yours, for
instance, as well as the one at the BART station I exited in Fremont.
They need to work on reliability a lot. It's possible -- especially
for such an ungodly expensive system. I'd consider their failure rate
unacceptable and make it contract contingent to fix them. Probably
the contract is written that way already. Go get 'em gov't!
Kenneth M. Lin <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
" You are very lucky. When I first rode Caltrain, I couldn't figure
" out what they meant by "tag on, tag off." Ironically, at the top of
" their Millbrae station there's a non-functioning tagging station so
" that made it even more confusing.
I agree. Safeway used to have crank handles for the (then-mechanical)
" You are very lucky. When I first rode Caltrain, I couldn't figure
" out what they meant by "tag on, tag off." Ironically, at the top of
" their Millbrae station there's a non-functioning tagging station so
" that made it even more confusing.
cash registers for when the power went out. Now I think they have
backup generators. It seems like Clipper Card readers are made in
China, because an immense number of them don't work right. Yours, for
instance, as well as the one at the BART station I exited in Fremont.
They need to work on reliability a lot. It's possible -- especially
for such an ungodly expensive system. I'd consider their failure rate
unacceptable and make it contract contingent to fix them. Probably
the contract is written that way already. Go get 'em gov't!
Brad Allen
May 14, 2012, 12:08:34 PM5/14/12
to
Followup:
It seems that there is a lot of inconsistent language out there. I am
going to go through a few nits I had along the way:
*** EXAMPLE 1 ***
Take this example from <http://www.vta.org/clipper/faq/index.html>:
What about Clipper on light rail?
When using Clipper on VTA light rail, customers only need to tap
their card on the platform reader once, at the beginning of their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
trip, before entering the vehicle. If you need to transfer to a
^^^^
second or third light rail vehicle to complete this trip, you do not
need to tap your Clipper card again prior to boarding unless the
transfer is more than 2 hours after starting the original trip.For
customers using cash on the Clipper card to pay for a light rail
single ride, once customers tag their Clipper card at a light rail
station they will have 2 hours to complete a trip on light rail. If
they tag again when they board another light rail vehicle, they will
be charged for the ride.
If I didn't know better (and I didn't the first time I read this), I
thought "beginning of their trip" (where their=me) included the
agency's bus that I boarded at my house, which is not a light rail
vehicle. Note that San Francisco Municipal Railroad doesn't make this
same differentiation between their trollies on tracks and their
trollies on rubber wheels.
Here's another excerpt from the same page:
Will I be able to purchase VTA Day Passes?
Yes. VTA's Day Passes are now available on Clipper! Just load your
Clipper card with Clipper Cash, tag every time you board a VTA bus
or if you are using VTA light rail - tag only once at the beginning
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of your trip. If you need to transfer to a second or third light
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rail vehicle to complete your trip, DO NOT tag your Clipper card
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
again unless your transfer to another light rail vehicle is more
^^^^^
than 2 hours after your first tag on light rail.
Once again, my trip starts at my home, where there is a beautiful
railroad that goes to 80% of the destinations I go to, but no light
rail runs on it, so I have to take a bus.
*** EXAMPLE 2 ***
For my next example, the background is from this:
First of all, you should read the language about how day passes are
processed, which I think is more accurate if you get it from the
following URL (note that it is not the VTA FAQ above, and seems to be
a much more accurate description of how it works than the VTA site):
<http://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/vta/fares.do>:
Day Passes (Standard and Express):
Unlike the paper day pass, which is purchased in advance, Clipper
automatically grants you a day pass once you've paid the same amount
in Clipper Cash as the day pass costs. Once you've earned a day
pass, Clipper will stop deducting fares from your Clipper Cash
balance and all your rides for the rest of that day will be free of
charge. Clipper automatically caps your day's fare, so you may see
less than the standard fare deducted if you're close to the daily
maximum. For example, a customer could take the following rides:
$1.25 Community fare + $2 Standard fare + $2 Standard fare + $0.75
Standard fare = $6 (Clipper only deducted $0.75 for the last fare
since Clipper automatically caps the fare at the cost of a Standard
day pass.)
If you're eligible for a transfer credit (e.g. you transferred from
SamTrans to VTA), the value of the transfer credit will count toward
your day pass.
If you have earned an Adult Standard day pass and transfer to an
Express route, there is no fare upgrade with Clipper. The full
Express fare will be deducted from your Clipper Cash balance until
you've paid the same amount as an Express day pass. Once you've
earned an Express day pass, you can ride all VTA bus and light rail
routes for the rest of that day free of charge. Please remember to
continue tagging your Clipper card to the reader every time you
board.
Senior, Disabled and Youth customers are able to ride all VTA bus or
light rail routes free of charge for the day once they have earned a
day pass.
For a complete list of VTA fares and pass prices, please click here
Now that I've registered my card, I see things like this:
TRANSACTION TYPE LOCATION ROUTE PRODUCT DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE*
05/10/2012 03:21 PM Cash payment at a TOT, TRU or AVM WALGREENS #5219 Translink E-Cash 20.00 20.00
05/12/2012 11:55 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 25 Translink E-Cash 2.00 18.00
05/13/2012 01:31 AM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 72 Translink E-Cash 2.00 16.00
05/13/2012 06:15 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 61 Translink E-Cash 2.00 14.00
05/13/2012 06:28 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA-PEN LRV Translink E-Cash 2.00 12.00
05/13/2012 07:03 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA-GMM LRV Translink E-Cash 2.00 10.00
05/13/2012 08:00 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 61 Translink E-Cash 10.00
Let's try to format that for 80 column output by eliminating the year
and store number and "Translink E-Cash" and reformatting:
Time TRANSACTION TYPE Place&Route Amount Bal
05-10 15:21 Cash @TOT,TRU,AVM WALGREENS +20 20
05-12 23:55 Single-tag fare VTA bus #25 -2 18
05-13 01:31 Single-tag fare VTA bus #72 -2 16
05-13 18:15 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 -2 14
05-13 18:28 Single-tag fare VTA-PEN LRV -2 12
05-13 19:03 Single-tag fare VTA-GMM LRV -2 10
05-13 20:00 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 10
Ok, now let's analyze that a bit:
Time TRANSACTION TYPE Place&Route Amount Bal
05-10 15:21 Cash @TOT,TRU,AVM WALGREENS +20 20
^^^^^ Loaded card.
05-12 23:55 Single-tag fare VTA bus #25 -2 18 [actually bus #23]
^^^^^^^^^^^ Use #1 this day.
05-13 01:31 Single-tag fare VTA bus #72 -2 16 [actually bus #22]
^^^^^^^^^^^ Working backwards from "third use that day" below, here
I see that the first use for 05-13 is at 18:15 below. Therefore, the
above 01:31 charge is the last use of the day of 05-12. But, the
actual day is 05-13 at 01:31.
05-13 18:15 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 -2 14
05-13 18:28 Single-tag fare VTA-PEN LRV -2 12
05-13 19:03 Single-tag fare VTA-GMM LRV -2 10
Third use this day. ^^^^
05-13 20:00 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 10
(FYI, above where it says bus #25, I actually rode bus #23. And above
where it says bus #72, I actually rode bus #22. So I was riding the
all-night bus.)
Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
In other words, passes and fares are a complete mystery. You just
sort of guess at it and inseminate information from multiple sources
and continue guessing at it, and probably no one really knows.
*** EXAMPLE 3 ***
I'd like to see a fare conviction for light rail fare evasion of the
proof of payment system with Clipper Card given the language I quoted
above -- I repeat:
... or if you are using VTA light rail - tag only once at the
beginning of your trip. If you need to transfer to a second or third
light rail vehicle to complete your trip, DO NOT tag your Clipper
card again unless your transfer to another light rail vehicle is
more than 2 hours after your first tag on light rail.
I take it my trip started at my house and ends when I'm done getting
my nail clippers from Walgreens, haircut from my hair artist, and
grabbed a Starbucks and talked with my friends for a bit in the park
and then got some updated clothing and came home. Or, if I find out
they consider that two trips -- there to the shopping social area and
back again, then that's two trips. It could have had any mix of buses
and light rails.
Let's look at this in a commute context. The first trip would be to
work, and the second trip would be from work. I can see how that is
demarked close to your clock-in and clock-out times. But then again,
clock-in and clock-out are silly concepts in an age of unlocated
offices. I could just as easily go to work to print something so that
I can go to my first real trip of the day, to see a client. Is that
the second trip? When I come home and drop by work for a few minutes
to drop off the paperwork for that contract, then go home, and grab
something to eat at the mall, is that 4 or 5 trips for the day? Or is
the ride home, as I told my spouse, from my client to her arms, 1
whole trip? I think my spouse and I consider it one trip.
Bring it out of the commute context, and the whole thing falls apart,
because we don't have a common reference point to discuss.
*** EXAMPLE 4 ***
"Proof Of Payment: You must have your proof of payment with you at all
times." (I forget the exact quote, but it came from a poster on a SF
Municipal Railroad bus on Van Ness Avenue.)
Well, your proof of payment is a transaction that you conducted using
your card. As such, the transaction has to be stored someplace.
Where is it actually stored? In the card itself? The legal language
is a bit iffy if not. If it's actually stored in the card, then the
legal language is spot on. But how does a citizen know this?
So, not only are passes and fares a complete mystery, where you just
sort of guess at it and inseminate information from multiple sources
and continue guessing at it, and probably no one really knows, but
also proper use of the fare system is also a mystery. Just as long as
you made a good faith effort, you should be just fine, I guess.
"Having your Clipper Card with you" might be considered a good faith
effort, once all is said and done. Obviously, through time, these
little things need to be ironed out.
I applaud the transit agencies for moving ahead with Clipper Card
despite all the above little bugs and nits. But they really do have
to correct them if they are to be professional about it. I know fare
box recovery is only ~12% of income for most of these agencies, but
still, it's a citizen (/"customer") issue too, especially when jail is
a component.
It seems that there is a lot of inconsistent language out there. I am
going to go through a few nits I had along the way:
*** EXAMPLE 1 ***
Take this example from <http://www.vta.org/clipper/faq/index.html>:
What about Clipper on light rail?
When using Clipper on VTA light rail, customers only need to tap
their card on the platform reader once, at the beginning of their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
trip, before entering the vehicle. If you need to transfer to a
^^^^
second or third light rail vehicle to complete this trip, you do not
need to tap your Clipper card again prior to boarding unless the
transfer is more than 2 hours after starting the original trip.For
customers using cash on the Clipper card to pay for a light rail
single ride, once customers tag their Clipper card at a light rail
station they will have 2 hours to complete a trip on light rail. If
they tag again when they board another light rail vehicle, they will
be charged for the ride.
If I didn't know better (and I didn't the first time I read this), I
thought "beginning of their trip" (where their=me) included the
agency's bus that I boarded at my house, which is not a light rail
vehicle. Note that San Francisco Municipal Railroad doesn't make this
same differentiation between their trollies on tracks and their
trollies on rubber wheels.
Here's another excerpt from the same page:
Will I be able to purchase VTA Day Passes?
Yes. VTA's Day Passes are now available on Clipper! Just load your
Clipper card with Clipper Cash, tag every time you board a VTA bus
or if you are using VTA light rail - tag only once at the beginning
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of your trip. If you need to transfer to a second or third light
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rail vehicle to complete your trip, DO NOT tag your Clipper card
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
again unless your transfer to another light rail vehicle is more
^^^^^
than 2 hours after your first tag on light rail.
Once again, my trip starts at my home, where there is a beautiful
railroad that goes to 80% of the destinations I go to, but no light
rail runs on it, so I have to take a bus.
*** EXAMPLE 2 ***
For my next example, the background is from this:
First of all, you should read the language about how day passes are
processed, which I think is more accurate if you get it from the
following URL (note that it is not the VTA FAQ above, and seems to be
a much more accurate description of how it works than the VTA site):
<http://www.clippercard.com/ClipperWeb/vta/fares.do>:
Day Passes (Standard and Express):
Unlike the paper day pass, which is purchased in advance, Clipper
automatically grants you a day pass once you've paid the same amount
in Clipper Cash as the day pass costs. Once you've earned a day
pass, Clipper will stop deducting fares from your Clipper Cash
balance and all your rides for the rest of that day will be free of
charge. Clipper automatically caps your day's fare, so you may see
less than the standard fare deducted if you're close to the daily
maximum. For example, a customer could take the following rides:
$1.25 Community fare + $2 Standard fare + $2 Standard fare + $0.75
Standard fare = $6 (Clipper only deducted $0.75 for the last fare
since Clipper automatically caps the fare at the cost of a Standard
day pass.)
If you're eligible for a transfer credit (e.g. you transferred from
SamTrans to VTA), the value of the transfer credit will count toward
your day pass.
If you have earned an Adult Standard day pass and transfer to an
Express route, there is no fare upgrade with Clipper. The full
Express fare will be deducted from your Clipper Cash balance until
you've paid the same amount as an Express day pass. Once you've
earned an Express day pass, you can ride all VTA bus and light rail
routes for the rest of that day free of charge. Please remember to
continue tagging your Clipper card to the reader every time you
board.
Senior, Disabled and Youth customers are able to ride all VTA bus or
light rail routes free of charge for the day once they have earned a
day pass.
For a complete list of VTA fares and pass prices, please click here
Now that I've registered my card, I see things like this:
TRANSACTION TYPE LOCATION ROUTE PRODUCT DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE*
05/10/2012 03:21 PM Cash payment at a TOT, TRU or AVM WALGREENS #5219 Translink E-Cash 20.00 20.00
05/12/2012 11:55 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 25 Translink E-Cash 2.00 18.00
05/13/2012 01:31 AM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 72 Translink E-Cash 2.00 16.00
05/13/2012 06:15 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 61 Translink E-Cash 2.00 14.00
05/13/2012 06:28 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA-PEN LRV Translink E-Cash 2.00 12.00
05/13/2012 07:03 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA-GMM LRV Translink E-Cash 2.00 10.00
05/13/2012 08:00 PM Single-tag fare payment VTA bus 61 Translink E-Cash 10.00
Let's try to format that for 80 column output by eliminating the year
and store number and "Translink E-Cash" and reformatting:
Time TRANSACTION TYPE Place&Route Amount Bal
05-10 15:21 Cash @TOT,TRU,AVM WALGREENS +20 20
05-12 23:55 Single-tag fare VTA bus #25 -2 18
05-13 01:31 Single-tag fare VTA bus #72 -2 16
05-13 18:15 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 -2 14
05-13 18:28 Single-tag fare VTA-PEN LRV -2 12
05-13 19:03 Single-tag fare VTA-GMM LRV -2 10
05-13 20:00 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 10
Ok, now let's analyze that a bit:
Time TRANSACTION TYPE Place&Route Amount Bal
05-10 15:21 Cash @TOT,TRU,AVM WALGREENS +20 20
^^^^^ Loaded card.
05-12 23:55 Single-tag fare VTA bus #25 -2 18 [actually bus #23]
^^^^^^^^^^^ Use #1 this day.
05-13 01:31 Single-tag fare VTA bus #72 -2 16 [actually bus #22]
^^^^^^^^^^^ Working backwards from "third use that day" below, here
I see that the first use for 05-13 is at 18:15 below. Therefore, the
above 01:31 charge is the last use of the day of 05-12. But, the
actual day is 05-13 at 01:31.
05-13 18:15 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 -2 14
05-13 18:28 Single-tag fare VTA-PEN LRV -2 12
05-13 19:03 Single-tag fare VTA-GMM LRV -2 10
Third use this day. ^^^^
05-13 20:00 Single-tag fare VTA bus #61 10
(FYI, above where it says bus #25, I actually rode bus #23. And above
where it says bus #72, I actually rode bus #22. So I was riding the
all-night bus.)
Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
In other words, passes and fares are a complete mystery. You just
sort of guess at it and inseminate information from multiple sources
and continue guessing at it, and probably no one really knows.
*** EXAMPLE 3 ***
I'd like to see a fare conviction for light rail fare evasion of the
proof of payment system with Clipper Card given the language I quoted
above -- I repeat:
... or if you are using VTA light rail - tag only once at the
beginning of your trip. If you need to transfer to a second or third
light rail vehicle to complete your trip, DO NOT tag your Clipper
card again unless your transfer to another light rail vehicle is
more than 2 hours after your first tag on light rail.
I take it my trip started at my house and ends when I'm done getting
my nail clippers from Walgreens, haircut from my hair artist, and
grabbed a Starbucks and talked with my friends for a bit in the park
and then got some updated clothing and came home. Or, if I find out
they consider that two trips -- there to the shopping social area and
back again, then that's two trips. It could have had any mix of buses
and light rails.
Let's look at this in a commute context. The first trip would be to
work, and the second trip would be from work. I can see how that is
demarked close to your clock-in and clock-out times. But then again,
clock-in and clock-out are silly concepts in an age of unlocated
offices. I could just as easily go to work to print something so that
I can go to my first real trip of the day, to see a client. Is that
the second trip? When I come home and drop by work for a few minutes
to drop off the paperwork for that contract, then go home, and grab
something to eat at the mall, is that 4 or 5 trips for the day? Or is
the ride home, as I told my spouse, from my client to her arms, 1
whole trip? I think my spouse and I consider it one trip.
Bring it out of the commute context, and the whole thing falls apart,
because we don't have a common reference point to discuss.
*** EXAMPLE 4 ***
"Proof Of Payment: You must have your proof of payment with you at all
times." (I forget the exact quote, but it came from a poster on a SF
Municipal Railroad bus on Van Ness Avenue.)
Well, your proof of payment is a transaction that you conducted using
your card. As such, the transaction has to be stored someplace.
Where is it actually stored? In the card itself? The legal language
is a bit iffy if not. If it's actually stored in the card, then the
legal language is spot on. But how does a citizen know this?
So, not only are passes and fares a complete mystery, where you just
sort of guess at it and inseminate information from multiple sources
and continue guessing at it, and probably no one really knows, but
also proper use of the fare system is also a mystery. Just as long as
you made a good faith effort, you should be just fine, I guess.
"Having your Clipper Card with you" might be considered a good faith
effort, once all is said and done. Obviously, through time, these
little things need to be ironed out.
I applaud the transit agencies for moving ahead with Clipper Card
despite all the above little bugs and nits. But they really do have
to correct them if they are to be professional about it. I know fare
box recovery is only ~12% of income for most of these agencies, but
still, it's a citizen (/"customer") issue too, especially when jail is
a component.
Steve Pope
May 14, 2012, 3:48:08 PM5/14/12
to
Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
>*** EXAMPLE 1 ***
>
>Take this example from <http://www.vta.org/clipper/faq/index.html>:
>
> What about Clipper on light rail?
>
> When using Clipper on VTA light rail, customers only need to tap
> their card on the platform reader once, at the beginning of their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> trip, before entering the vehicle. If you need to transfer to a
> ^^^^
> second or third light rail vehicle to complete this trip, you do not
> need to tap your Clipper card again prior to boarding unless the
> transfer is more than 2 hours after starting the original trip.For
> customers using cash on the Clipper card to pay for a light rail
> single ride, once customers tag their Clipper card at a light rail
> station they will have 2 hours to complete a trip on light rail. If
> they tag again when they board another light rail vehicle, they will
> be charged for the ride.
>
>If I didn't know better (and I didn't the first time I read this), I
>thought "beginning of their trip" (where their=me) included the
>agency's bus that I boarded at my house, which is not a light rail
>vehicle. Note that San Francisco Municipal Railroad doesn't make this
>same differentiation between their trollies on tracks and their
>trollies on rubber wheels.
Yep. The VTA implementation of Clipper is basically incorrect.
>*** EXAMPLE 1 ***
>
>Take this example from <http://www.vta.org/clipper/faq/index.html>:
>
> What about Clipper on light rail?
>
> When using Clipper on VTA light rail, customers only need to tap
> their card on the platform reader once, at the beginning of their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> trip, before entering the vehicle. If you need to transfer to a
> ^^^^
> second or third light rail vehicle to complete this trip, you do not
> need to tap your Clipper card again prior to boarding unless the
> transfer is more than 2 hours after starting the original trip.For
> customers using cash on the Clipper card to pay for a light rail
> single ride, once customers tag their Clipper card at a light rail
> station they will have 2 hours to complete a trip on light rail. If
> they tag again when they board another light rail vehicle, they will
> be charged for the ride.
>
>If I didn't know better (and I didn't the first time I read this), I
>thought "beginning of their trip" (where their=me) included the
>agency's bus that I boarded at my house, which is not a light rail
>vehicle. Note that San Francisco Municipal Railroad doesn't make this
>same differentiation between their trollies on tracks and their
>trollies on rubber wheels.
It should track whether you're within your two hours and not
double-charge you. That is the way, for example, an Oyster Card
works in London, and also Metro Cards in NYC.
Steve
Keith Keller
May 15, 2012, 12:15:30 AM5/15/12
to
On 2012-05-14, Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>
> Yep. The VTA implementation of Clipper is basically incorrect.
> It should track whether you're within your two hours and not
> double-charge you. That is the way, for example, an Oyster Card
> works in London, and also Metro Cards in NYC.
Or how Clipper works on Muni. If Muni, of all agencies, can get this
>
> Yep. The VTA implementation of Clipper is basically incorrect.
> It should track whether you're within your two hours and not
> double-charge you. That is the way, for example, an Oyster Card
> works in London, and also Metro Cards in NYC.
correct, why can't VTA?
--keith
--
kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
David Kaye
May 15, 2012, 3:09:55 PM5/15/12
to
"Brad Allen" <q...@sonic.net> wrote
> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
> on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
> friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
> Not cool at all not having AC outlets.
Boo on YOU for having a wasteful phone. I have my trusty Samsung A650 flip
phone, 10 years old, along with an exact duplicate backup I bought a couple
years ago via Craigslist for $10. Thus I have a spare battery as well as a
spare phone. My little flip phone does voice (high fidelity voice, I might
add, not the crap that comes out of an iPhone), as well as text and some
rudimentary web browsing (though I have turned off that feature). It has
voice dialing of up to 20 frequently used numbers, too.
It seems that the cafe where I hang out is ALWAYS charging someone's phone
for them. Me, I get about 3 days of standby and about 2 hours of constant
talk on one battery charge (and remember that I can carry a spare with me).
Caltrain does not owe you a charging station. You've got to get your
communications act together.
> Hmm. Just got another text now. The cost of me not having my phone
> on today: Approximately $1,400.00, and climbing, spread among my
> friends. My friends are VERY mad at me. BOO on Caltrain for that.
> Not cool at all not having AC outlets.
phone, 10 years old, along with an exact duplicate backup I bought a couple
years ago via Craigslist for $10. Thus I have a spare battery as well as a
spare phone. My little flip phone does voice (high fidelity voice, I might
add, not the crap that comes out of an iPhone), as well as text and some
rudimentary web browsing (though I have turned off that feature). It has
voice dialing of up to 20 frequently used numbers, too.
It seems that the cafe where I hang out is ALWAYS charging someone's phone
for them. Me, I get about 3 days of standby and about 2 hours of constant
talk on one battery charge (and remember that I can carry a spare with me).
Caltrain does not owe you a charging station. You've got to get your
communications act together.
Peter Lawrence
May 16, 2012, 1:17:27 AM5/16/12
to
On 5/14/12 12:48 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Yep. The VTA implementation of Clipper is basically incorrect.
> It should track whether you're within your two hours and not
> double-charge you. That is the way, for example, an Oyster Card
> works in London, and also Metro Cards in NYC.
The VTA has no transfers. When paying by cash, you either pay a single fare
>
> Yep. The VTA implementation of Clipper is basically incorrect.
> It should track whether you're within your two hours and not
> double-charge you. That is the way, for example, an Oyster Card
> works in London, and also Metro Cards in NYC.
for a bus and then an additional fare for another bus, or you purchase a
day-pass (which allows you to board buses all day for no additional cost).
It's Clipper implementation has the advantage that it will automatically
track how many buses you have boarded during the day and max out where you
have paid enough to earn a day-pass.
- Peter
Steve Pope
May 16, 2012, 1:41:22 PM5/16/12
to
So one should tag exactly once on each VTA vechicle one rides,
so that one pays up to the day-use-pass maximum?
Steve
Brad Allen
May 17, 2012, 12:09:11 AM5/17/12
to
In article <jp0os2$obq$2...@blue-new.rahul.net>,
I believe what they sort of intend and want you to do is "tag" at
entry to every vehicle type except your immediately subsequent Light
Rail Vehicle of any other Light Rail Vehicle within 2 hours of the
first Light Rail Vehicle tag. I recently found out that that tagging
can be 45 minutes before your first Light Rail Vehicle ride, leaving
you only 1 hour 15 minutes left. (That's because you must tag on the
platform for Light Rail.) You can hang out near the tag machine, then
tag and run to the front of the platform when you see the train (or
lack thereof) coming.
I'm not sure if you are supposed to re-tag once you GOT someplace
(left the Light Rail system) and have returned from that place, even
if it is under 2 hours, legally speaking. I know a lot of transit
agencies in the past made you do this, but for simplification
abandonded that legalistic specificity. I've seen a steady
abondonment of that over the decades by more and more agencies, and I
think Clipper Card was a push in that direction for some local
agencies, but noticed that some keep with it still. I don't have a
dog in that race, just noticing it in general.
The other question I have is if Clipper Card is programmed to charge
me $0.00 on my second light rail vehicle even though it says "it will
charge you $2.00" in the literature. I never tested it. They
probably will continue to improve the system? They imply that they
will, with the likes of Caltrain monthly pass holders with parking and
local agency stickers who use upgrade fares. Oh -- Caltrain has a
special procedure for a paper upgrade ticket for Clipper Card monthly
zone holders (going beyond the monthly zones you have). That
specificity is helpful.
NYC allows a per-use card to be used by I think up to 4 people if you
keep stuffing the same one into the initial box repeatedly; it will
charge 4 riders. Then when you transfer, you have to remember to only
put it in the box once, and it will spit out that you got 4 transfers.
At turnstiles it would actually allow those 4 people through with one
swipe for a transfer. Similarly, at the beginning of the trip, I
think you were supposed to multi-swipe it at the same turnstile and it
would rack up however many entries. Either way, you kind of have to
gang-line up and defend your line with that type of entry. This was
as of the start of the Metrocard; it may have changed. What I found
decent about that wasn't necessarily the concept, but with the
thoroughness with which they thought of and implemented it, and
communicated it with the public without any sort of deviance,
difficulty, or miscommunication. On the one hand I could allow a
racist quip "all those jews did their job right of course like they
always do", but more importantly, the thing was thought out in terms
of how it was introduced to the customers. I think NYC has always
excelled at that, although that might be a recent phenomenon.
But here in what I am finding out is really another of the armpits of
the bay area, San Jose, it's kinda just sort of whatever. I'm glad
the whatever is progress, at least, and as I've said, good for them.
But what a mess. I'm hoping it'll only get better once they deal with
broken reader and renewed credit card type issues.
entry to every vehicle type except your immediately subsequent Light
Rail Vehicle of any other Light Rail Vehicle within 2 hours of the
first Light Rail Vehicle tag. I recently found out that that tagging
can be 45 minutes before your first Light Rail Vehicle ride, leaving
you only 1 hour 15 minutes left. (That's because you must tag on the
platform for Light Rail.) You can hang out near the tag machine, then
tag and run to the front of the platform when you see the train (or
lack thereof) coming.
I'm not sure if you are supposed to re-tag once you GOT someplace
(left the Light Rail system) and have returned from that place, even
if it is under 2 hours, legally speaking. I know a lot of transit
agencies in the past made you do this, but for simplification
abandonded that legalistic specificity. I've seen a steady
abondonment of that over the decades by more and more agencies, and I
think Clipper Card was a push in that direction for some local
agencies, but noticed that some keep with it still. I don't have a
dog in that race, just noticing it in general.
The other question I have is if Clipper Card is programmed to charge
me $0.00 on my second light rail vehicle even though it says "it will
charge you $2.00" in the literature. I never tested it. They
probably will continue to improve the system? They imply that they
will, with the likes of Caltrain monthly pass holders with parking and
local agency stickers who use upgrade fares. Oh -- Caltrain has a
special procedure for a paper upgrade ticket for Clipper Card monthly
zone holders (going beyond the monthly zones you have). That
specificity is helpful.
NYC allows a per-use card to be used by I think up to 4 people if you
keep stuffing the same one into the initial box repeatedly; it will
charge 4 riders. Then when you transfer, you have to remember to only
put it in the box once, and it will spit out that you got 4 transfers.
At turnstiles it would actually allow those 4 people through with one
swipe for a transfer. Similarly, at the beginning of the trip, I
think you were supposed to multi-swipe it at the same turnstile and it
would rack up however many entries. Either way, you kind of have to
gang-line up and defend your line with that type of entry. This was
as of the start of the Metrocard; it may have changed. What I found
decent about that wasn't necessarily the concept, but with the
thoroughness with which they thought of and implemented it, and
communicated it with the public without any sort of deviance,
difficulty, or miscommunication. On the one hand I could allow a
racist quip "all those jews did their job right of course like they
always do", but more importantly, the thing was thought out in terms
of how it was introduced to the customers. I think NYC has always
excelled at that, although that might be a recent phenomenon.
But here in what I am finding out is really another of the armpits of
the bay area, San Jose, it's kinda just sort of whatever. I'm glad
the whatever is progress, at least, and as I've said, good for them.
But what a mess. I'm hoping it'll only get better once they deal with
broken reader and renewed credit card type issues.
Brad Allen
May 17, 2012, 12:17:15 AM5/17/12
to
Ahh, that's right: I think the boxes and turnstiles (boxes on buses
and turnstiles in subways) kept a count of credits, so if you racked
up, say, 3 credits, then the next person was a stupid or hurried
person who cut in front of your 2 transfering friends, then they
swiped, then their card was read properly, then despite the fact they
stole your credit, your two friends still could use one of your
credits and his credit and it evened out. It got iffy if the
attendant wasn't paying attention to everything but did catch someone
going through on the wrong fare tier because of this. You'd have to
explain, and I'm sure they would go "oh, that's fine.", because the
twain of intention and payment (and good faith) were both (all)
balanced properly. The problem is that you still have to guard: if
the person swiped but their card didn't credit (for whatever reason --
dirty stripe, no money, bad swipe), or if the person simply didn't try
swiping properly (in order to steal your credit), then you are in
trouble. You have to lean over the turnstile and see if their swipe
credited, and if it didn't, push them back so they don't make the
turnstile turn and tell them "Hey! Don't steal my ride credit!
Friends, beat this guy up if he steals your entry!" while looking past
him to your gang of friends. That usually worked, with an "oh, damn
it bitch, I'm sorry, uhm, let me get over here ..." kinda reaction
from the thief as they mentally transitioned from criminal to survival
mode. You see, NYC published all that during introduction of the
system.
and turnstiles in subways) kept a count of credits, so if you racked
up, say, 3 credits, then the next person was a stupid or hurried
person who cut in front of your 2 transfering friends, then they
swiped, then their card was read properly, then despite the fact they
stole your credit, your two friends still could use one of your
credits and his credit and it evened out. It got iffy if the
attendant wasn't paying attention to everything but did catch someone
going through on the wrong fare tier because of this. You'd have to
explain, and I'm sure they would go "oh, that's fine.", because the
twain of intention and payment (and good faith) were both (all)
balanced properly. The problem is that you still have to guard: if
the person swiped but their card didn't credit (for whatever reason --
dirty stripe, no money, bad swipe), or if the person simply didn't try
swiping properly (in order to steal your credit), then you are in
trouble. You have to lean over the turnstile and see if their swipe
credited, and if it didn't, push them back so they don't make the
turnstile turn and tell them "Hey! Don't steal my ride credit!
Friends, beat this guy up if he steals your entry!" while looking past
him to your gang of friends. That usually worked, with an "oh, damn
it bitch, I'm sorry, uhm, let me get over here ..." kinda reaction
from the thief as they mentally transitioned from criminal to survival
mode. You see, NYC published all that during introduction of the
system.
Kenneth M. Lin
May 17, 2012, 2:23:22 AM5/17/12
to
So what if I tagged on at VTA lightrail and then decide to not take the
train because it doesn't show up on time? There's no way to get a refund.
train because it doesn't show up on time? There's no way to get a refund.
Steve Pope
May 17, 2012, 11:55:13 AM5/17/12
to
>So what if I tagged on at VTA lightrail and then decide to not take the
>train because it doesn't show up on time? There's no way to get a refund.
Same as if you enter a BART station and the train doesn't come.
>train because it doesn't show up on time? There's no way to get a refund.
You lose.
Steve
Kenneth M. Lin
May 17, 2012, 10:45:28 PM5/17/12
to
"Steve Pope" wrote in message news:jp3711$omf$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...
reading paperbacks at any time.
Peter Lawrence
May 18, 2012, 2:36:13 PM5/18/12
to
minutes grace period with your initial tag on Caltrain. If you decide after
tagging not to take the train, you have 15 minutes to tag you card again (at
the same station) and get your fare refunded.
- Peter
Bob Vaughan
Jun 1, 2012, 7:33:53 AM6/1/12
to
In article <4fb12e02$0$87566$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
expires at 0300 the following day. ie: a pass issued at 0714 on 6/1
would be valid until 0300 on 6/2.
I don't know what time they roll over, but I would hope that any
day pass issued after midnight would be valid until 0300 the following
day.
--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie@{w6yx|tantivy}.stanford.edu | tec...@tantivy.net
AF6RR | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 | 1-650-469-3850
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --
Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
>01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
>entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
>cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
>no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
>explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
>
If you read the back of a paper VTA day pass, it indicates that it
>
>Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
>01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
>entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
>cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
>no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
>explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
>
expires at 0300 the following day. ie: a pass issued at 0714 on 6/1
would be valid until 0300 on 6/2.
I don't know what time they roll over, but I would hope that any
day pass issued after midnight would be valid until 0300 the following
day.
--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie@{w6yx|tantivy}.stanford.edu | tec...@tantivy.net
AF6RR | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 | 1-650-469-3850
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --
Brad Allen
Jun 13, 2012, 12:55:12 PM6/13/12
to
In article <jqa9b1$g8e$1...@usenet.stanford.edu>,
is then an omission error from the Clipper Card system: this
information needs to be available to those who use Clipper Card,
something I thoroughly did not have any access to myself the first
time I used Clipper Card for day passes across the day change.
Bob Vaughan <tec...@w6yx.stanford.edu> wrote:
" In article <4fb12e02$0$87566$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
" Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
" >
" >Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
" >01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
" >entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
" >cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
" >no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
" >explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
" >
"
" If you read the back of a paper VTA day pass, it indicates that it
" expires at 0300 the following day. ie: a pass issued at 0714 on 6/1
" would be valid until 0300 on 6/2.
I finally saw that weeks later when I actually got a paper pass. This
" In article <4fb12e02$0$87566$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
" Brad Allen <q...@sonic.net> wrote:
" >
" >Let me repeat: the last use of the day of 05-12, was at 05-13 at
" >01:31. I.e., day pass cutoffs are not at midnight. I searched the
" >entire VTA website and Google thoroughly, and found no mention of the
" >cutoff time for day passes. Since VTA Bus #22 runs all night, there's
" >no "all buses are stopped" obvious cutoff. In NYC, it was explicitly
" >explained in their literature on the topic for this issue.
" >
"
" If you read the back of a paper VTA day pass, it indicates that it
" expires at 0300 the following day. ie: a pass issued at 0714 on 6/1
" would be valid until 0300 on 6/2.
is then an omission error from the Clipper Card system: this
information needs to be available to those who use Clipper Card,
something I thoroughly did not have any access to myself the first
time I used Clipper Card for day passes across the day change.
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