Monthly BART passes?
Stan The Man
future? If CalTrain can do it, why not BART? Even NYC managed to get monthly
passes for their subway system and they said that was impossible....
Keith Keller
BART has claimed for years that it can't do monthly passes because they
don't *want* to do it. They make more money by forcing people to pay
full price for every ride, instead of giving a discount for riding BART
regularly.
The NYC subway is a little different, because (IIRC) the fare is the
same no matter how far you ride. BART is more like CalTrain, though as
you say, if CalTrain can do it, why can't BART? Conceivably, they could
kill two birds with one stone--they could simplify the fare structure by
creating fare zones, and charging based on number of zones traveled.
Then they wouldn't need to publish the huge fare table that they
currently do.
Speaking of BART, there was this blurb today:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/22/BA5O1A9B01.DTL
Oh, good, MTC wants to run Bay Area transit. Kopp says every entity
wants to preserve itself; could that be because if MTC took over, bus
service would all but die all through the area?
--keith
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Stan The Man
"Keith Keller" <kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote in message
news:l618r6x...@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us...
> On 2009-10-23, Stan The Man <stanth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Any chance we'll see unlimited monthly BART passes in the foreseeable
>> future? If CalTrain can do it, why not BART? Even NYC managed to get
>> monthly
>> passes for their subway system and they said that was impossible....
>
> BART has claimed for years that it can't do monthly passes because they
> don't *want* to do it. They make more money by forcing people to pay
> full price for every ride, instead of giving a discount for riding BART
> regularly.
>
Would a ballot measure be enough to fix this? If enough people voted for it,
couldn't they force BART to create some kind of unlimited monthly pass? If
so, I think this might be worth considering.
David Kaye
Another questions is why NOT charge more for a longer distance traveled? If
you drive you have to pay more for more miles traveled. If you ship something
you have to pay more the further it goes.
Okay, so a monthly pass is convenient. BART has existed for 35+ years and has
managed to gain riders beyond expectations, so obviously the mileage-driven
ticket hasn't stopped people from riding.
Think about it. If you have a monthly pass, the charges have to be flattened
out, and thus a ride across SF would cost maybe $4.00 instead of $1.75. This
would mean that nobody would ride within SF and the Muni would be even more
overloaded on the Mission corridor than it is now.
Hmmm...on second thought, this would mean more money for the Muni since the 14
Mission is one of the revenue generators for the system. Forget what I said
about flat rate BART tickets...
--
"You're in probably the wickedest, most corrupt city, most
Godless city in America." -- Fr Mullen, "San Francisco"
Keith Keller
>
>
> Think about it. If you have a monthly pass, the charges have to be flattened
> out
No it wouldn't. CalTrain sells monthly passes based on zones; BART
could do the same if they wanted.
Graham Harrison
Doesn't even need zones. Here in the UK the railway system still uses
station to station fares and I can buy an unlimited pass between (nearly)
any two stations for one week, one month or even one year. Such "Season
Tickets" allow unlimited journeys between the two named stations *and*
between any other stations between the two named ones. In the case of the
a weekly ticket the fare tends to be a slight discount on the regular fare
for 5 days. I say "regular" because we also have "off peak" tickets and in
many cases if you travel after about 0930 it is often cheaper to buy 5 of
those rather than a season. There are a few experiments going on with
"Carnet" where you buy 10 tickets at a discount but these are not at all
widespread.
Stan The Man
"Graham Harrison" <edward.h...@remove.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2tGdnV7piL2gNnzX...@bt.com...
Do they sell tickets that are good on the entire system, or only between
specific stations?
I was just reading a thread on SkyScraperPage.com
(http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=158506)
I had no idea London had such an extensive transit system. Far exceeds
anything here in the U.S. Even in NYC.
Graham Harrison
"Stan The Man" <stanth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hbsmrs$qk2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
London has effectively got 2 networks - the tube and the national rail
network. This map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Tube-DLR-Trams-and-Train-Travelcard-zones-Map.pdf
shows the two superimposed. If you look on the same pages you'll also find
maps of the bus services in the same area. It is quite a network. Most
cities have something similar although the tube is unique (except Glasgow
which also has a tiny tube network and Newcastle). Several cities have
trams (Birmingham, Blackpool, Sheffield, Manchester and there's one being
built in Edinburgh).
Then have a look at
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/uk.pdf
which is the national rail network for the whole country (the London bit
from the previous map is concentrated in that box in the bottom right hand
corner.)
Local systems usually have some form of integrated ticketing where you can
purchase one ticket covering both rail and bus services but the details vary
from area to area. London is possibly one of the best where one ticket can
be bought to cover bus, train and tube travel in one day, week, month and
annual variations. Even though I live 125 miles west of London I have 8
trains a day to London alone (there are another 8 to places like Bristol,
Bath and Weymouth and the trains back from London continue to Exeter,
Plymouth and beyond) and when I buy my ticket to/from London I can include a
one day ticket to travel round London. 25 miles away, a different line
from Bristol through Bath to London has a train every half hour from about
0630 to 1930 an then hourly trains until nearly 2300. I can buy a ticket
for 7 or 14 days travel on as many trains as I can manage which is valid
everywhere in England, Scotland and Wales.
The system is by no means perfect. One of the issues I have is that two
bus services pass my local station (I live in a rural area). Sometimes, if
you're lucky, the train will arrive a few minutes before the bus you need
but that means that if you arrive on the bus you've just missed that train.
Trouble is that the buses run, at best, once an hour and sometimes there are
2 hour gaps. The quality of services also varies quite substantially. I
may be able to get the 125 miles to London in slightly less than 2 hours but
the 25 miles to Bath takes about an hour partly because the train service
goes a long way round.
Fares are an issue as well. Whilst I can buy a ticket to London (one way)
for as little as twelve pounds it can also cost more than 100.00. To get
the cheap tickets you have to buy in advance and pick the "right" train -
just like airline pricing and with all the complaints etc that apply to
airline pricing.
spamtrap1888
Look at the schedule: Caltrain is not set up for unlimited use but for
daily commuting. A monthly pass does not generate any extra rides,
except perhaps on the weekend. In contrast, an unlimited pass on BART
would increase the number of riders without increasing revenue,
because of the frequency of trains headed in all directions.
Keith Keller
>
> Look at the schedule: Caltrain is not set up for unlimited use but for
> daily commuting. A monthly pass does not generate any extra rides,
> except perhaps on the weekend. In contrast, an unlimited pass on BART
> would increase the number of riders without increasing revenue,
> because of the frequency of trains headed in all directions.
A truly unlimited BART pass would be priced accordingly (e.g., the price
of a Pittsburg-SFO pass). But most people would be more interested in a
pass that takes them from their home to their work; BART could do this
fairly easily if they wanted. One poster suggested a scheme where you
buy a pass for two stations, and can travel between any two stations
between the two target stations; that also seems very reasonable.
And taking your last point, isn't the primary goal to increase riders?
And if those extra trips are during offpeak hours, there's little extra
cost to BART.
spamtrap1888
francisco.ca.us> wrote:
> On 2009-10-23, spamtrap1888 <spamtrap1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Look at the schedule: Caltrain is not set up for unlimited use but for
> > daily commuting. A monthly pass does not generate any extra rides,
> > except perhaps on the weekend. In contrast, an unlimited pass on BART
> > would increase the number of riders without increasing revenue,
> > because of the frequency of trains headed in all directions.
>
> A truly unlimited BART pass would be priced accordingly (e.g., the price
> of a Pittsburg-SFO pass). But most people would be more interested in a
> pass that takes them from their home to their work; BART could do this
> fairly easily if they wanted. One poster suggested a scheme where you
> buy a pass for two stations, and can travel between any two stations
> between the two target stations; that also seems very reasonable.
Commuter rail can discount monthly passes at something less than 46
rides because they can save the costs of selling tickets and the cost
of borrowing money from day to day. Do these factors apply to BART?
>
> And taking your last point, isn't the primary goal to increase riders?
> And if those extra trips are during offpeak hours, there's little extra
> cost to BART.
>
More utilization means more maintenance, more equipment needed, and
shorter times to repair and replacement, Monthly passes -- or, more
likely, our taxes -- will have to go up to cover these expenses.
Stan The Man
"Keith Keller" <kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote in message
news:2rf9r6x...@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us...
> On 2009-10-23, spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Look at the schedule: Caltrain is not set up for unlimited use but for
>> daily commuting. A monthly pass does not generate any extra rides,
>> except perhaps on the weekend. In contrast, an unlimited pass on BART
>> would increase the number of riders without increasing revenue,
>> because of the frequency of trains headed in all directions.
>
> A truly unlimited BART pass would be priced accordingly (e.g., the price
> of a Pittsburg-SFO pass). But most people would be more interested in a
> pass that takes them from their home to their work; BART could do this
> fairly easily if they wanted. One poster suggested a scheme where you
> buy a pass for two stations, and can travel between any two stations
> between the two target stations; that also seems very reasonable.
>
> And taking your last point, isn't the primary goal to increase riders?
> And if those extra trips are during offpeak hours, there's little extra
> cost to BART.
>
Muni monthly passes are good for unlimited travel on BART within San
Francisco. Why doesn't every BART county offer something similar? If you
wanted unlimited travel between San Francisco and Oakland, you would only
need to purchase two monthly bus passes and you would get it.
Keith Keller
>
> Muni monthly passes are good for unlimited travel on BART within San
> Francisco. Why doesn't every BART county offer something similar? If you
> wanted unlimited travel between San Francisco and Oakland, you would only
> need to purchase two monthly bus passes and you would get it.
Well, that issue is fairly complicated.
First off, ''every BART county'' encompasses many different transit
agencies. AC Transit serves western Alameda and southwestern Contra
Costa. Union City Transit serves Union City. WestCAT serves other
parts of western Contra Costa. CCCTA serves central Contra Costa
(basically Walnut Creek/Martinez and area). (I don't think WestCAT
overlaps BART very much.)
Second, except for AC Transit, none of these providers serve an
interesting BART service area. How many people need unlimited BART
travel from Concord to Lafayette?
Third, BART extracts large fees for ride-sharing agreements. I forget
what the number is now, but back when the BART fare was $1.10 within San
Francisco, Muni had to pay BART $1 for every BART ride using a Fast
Pass. At the time, IIRC, the Muni fare was only $0.85, so they were
getting jobbed every ride. (Very soon after the BART fare went to $1.10
the Muni fare went to $1, so it wasn't quite so bad.) But ever since
I've moved here, BART and Muni have haggled over and over again about
how much Muni has to pay for Fast Pass use. I imagine that other
agencies don't want to deal with that.
This is the reason that the BART Plus pass is no longer accepted by AC
Transit--BART wanted more money than AC Transit was willing to pay.
BART can do this because the MTC is basically in BART's pocket--if MTC
were smart it'd force BART to come to reasonable agreements as you
describe with the larger bus agencies (AC Transit and SamTrans).
The aforementioned BART Plus is the closest you can currently get to a
one-stop shopping pass--it works as a flash pass on most Bay Area
transit operators (except AC Transit). The problem is, it's still a
regular BART ticket otherwise--it doesn't give unlimited BART rides,
just a set amount when you buy the ticket. It's also a fairly expensive
pass: the best value, which is $50 of BART travel for a half-month, is
$26 for the flash pass portion. At $52/month, that's only $3 less than
a regular Muni Fast Pass.