Generator Advice?
darrell earnshaw
Sorry to open the subject of generators again, but I'd like to solicit a
little advice on the subject . As a fairly recent mountain resident,
last Monday's snow quickly brought home the issue of a standby generator
to keep a few essential services running. I'm looking for something in
the 5-6Kw range; just enough to power the furnace, keep the fridge
going, possibly the water pump and (hopefully) a light or two.
I'd seen some Coleman 5Kw units in Home Depot for around $600. However,
a couple of local guys (who are more knowledgeable than I am) warned me
off Colemans, citing reliability issues with the engines. The general
concensus seems to be that Honda are the more reliable units, and
quieter too... but, they're nearly twice the price! (CostCo is selling
5Kw Generac units for about the same price as the Coleman, but they are
also rumored to be quite noisy.) I'm also seeing some Coleman's that
claim to be "honda-powered".
Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether there is a significant
difference in reliability/noise between a "honda-powered"
Coleman/whatever, and a genuine Honda generator? Any thoughts where I
could pick up a Honda at a reasonable price? (I'm still checking eBay.)
Thanks in advance,
Darrell
Summit Road.
NR3Y/W6.
Dirt Devil
darrell earnshaw <Darrell....@Sun.com> wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Sorry to open the subject of generators again,
It's OK. We'll bill ya.
>to keep a few essential services running. I'm looking for something in
>the 5-6Kw range;
Geeze, what a PIG! You may be The One (tm) responsible for the power
shortage in this state.
With that sorta power, you can run all that you describe *plus* a few
arc welders.
If I remember correctly, Geoff just bought something along the lines
of 2500W.
>just enough to power the furnace, keep the fridge
>going, possibly the water pump and (hopefully) a light or two.
Unless you are running an electric furnace (in which case, ignore the
previous two sentences that I wrote), none of this is that big of a
deal.
Now, I will say that if you insist on running all of that stuff at
once, something bigger than 2500W would be required. But a pump isn't
something that you need to run all of the time. You can simply switch
it off untill you need pressure, right?
>I'd seen some Coleman 5Kw units in Home Depot for around $600. However,
>a couple of local guys (who are more knowledgeable than I am) warned me
>off Colemans, citing reliability issues with the engines.
True. If the engines are B&S, run away very fast.
>The general
>concensus seems to be that Honda are the more reliable units, and
>quieter too... but, they're nearly twice the price! (CostCo is selling
>5Kw Generac units for about the same price as the Coleman, but they are
>also rumored to be quite noisy.) I'm also seeing some Coleman's that
>claim to be "honda-powered".
It is mostly the engine that you should be looking at.
I will say, however, that my previous-to-Honda generator was a
Generac. It was B&S powered. When I took it in for warranty repairs
(on B&S, get used to this), they tried to claim that the excessive
vibration was due to the generator armature not being balanced.
I'm not sure that was anything more than trying to foist off their
problems on the manufacturer of the generator.
>Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether there is a significant
>difference in reliability/noise between a "honda-powered"
> Coleman/whatever, and a genuine Honda generator?
Also check with Northern Online. They carry lots of Honda and
Honda-powerd generators at good (before shipping) prices.
>Any thoughts where I
>could pick up a Honda at a reasonable price? (I'm still checking eBay.)
Look, the prices marked at the Honda places are not the price that you
should expect to pay.
When I bought my first Honda (2500W), it listed for like $1300. I
ended up paying ... I dunno, about $800 for it. This present one was
more like $650, but I bought it at the same time that I bought the
motorcycle, there.
That should give you an idea as to how much room they have in their
profits.
--
"Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on who we love."
-- _A_General_Theory_Of_Love_ Thanks, Mom
______________________________________________________________
Glen Appleby gl...@armory.com <HTTP://www.armory.com/~glena/>
Donald Kerns
I'm right in there with you guy.
Recent snow damped out my XYL's QRM about buying "an expensive noisy toy."
She wants one RIGHT NOW!
Phone call already in for the transfer switch, and eyeing my tax refund to
see if it will cover the Honda I want.
Frequent responses to your question are
All American Honda/Other Japanese (for local)
(make sure you bargin them down)
Somebody else will have to jump in with the low price web outfit.
You also might want to see the "A (brief) word for Honda generators"
thread currently taking place in this group.
-Donald
Andrew Knutsen
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to whether there is a significant
> difference in reliability/noise between a "honda-powered"
> Coleman/whatever, and a genuine Honda generator? Any thoughts where I
> could pick up a Honda at a reasonable price? (I'm still checking eBay.)
When I was shopping last year, I bought a Coleman 3KW with a Tecumsa (sp?)
OHV motor. It cost $377 at Home Depot. Our theory is that Coleman is/was
trying to improve their reputation, and is/was selling this model at discount.
Its only problem, so far, is that the gas tank is miniscule (maybe thats why
its so cheap); needs filling every hour (or a siphon arrangement). Also, I
think the carb ices in cold weather (colder than we get here).
I also use an inverter/charger -- Heart Interface 2KW. My power in the
mountains goes out a lot (most every heavy snow).
Andrew
PS if you wanna see real snow, check my personal website...
AK
--
Andrew Knutsen and...@sco.com
Santa Cruz Operation (831) 427-7538
work: http://andrewk.pdev.sco.com
personal: http://www.goldbarlodge.com
Eric Murray
Dirt Devil <gl...@deeptht.armory.com.> wrote:
>In article <3A8C28BC...@eng.Sun.COM>,
>darrell earnshaw <Darrell....@Sun.com> wrote:
>>Hi Folks,
>>
>>Sorry to open the subject of generators again,
>
>It's OK. We'll bill ya.
>
>>to keep a few essential services running. I'm looking for something in
>>the 5-6Kw range;
>
>Geeze, what a PIG! You may be The One (tm) responsible for the power
>shortage in this state.
>
>With that sorta power, you can run all that you describe *plus* a few
>arc welders.
I have a 5000 watt Honda. I sized it so I can run 3-4 computers, lights,
the blower fan for the central heat and the fridge off it. My wife and I
both work at home, and the prospect of missing a deadline because
of a prolonged power outage loomed large in the decision to get
a big honking generator.
Speaking of which, I wound up missing a deadline on tuesday because I
spent most of Monday trying to figure out why my generator would only run
for 10-15 minutes at a time. At first I thought that the oil was low,
tripping the low oil level cutoff switch. But it was only slightly low,
and topping it off didn't help. The carb was ok, the gas tank was venting
properly, a new sparkplug didn't help, and the airfilter was clean.
I finally figured out that the oil level switch was defective, and after
enough vibration or the engine warmed up, it would short out the ignition.
It runs fine with the switch unplugged.
>If I remember correctly, Geoff just bought something along the lines
>of 2500W.
2500 is enough if you're just running the fridge and a laptop.
--
To reply via email, send it to ericm at the same address that's in the headers.
Sherwood Harrington
: In article <3A8C28BC...@eng.Sun.COM>,
: darrell earnshaw <Darrell....@Sun.com> wrote:
: >Hi Folks,
: >
: >Sorry to open the subject of generators again,
: If I remember correctly, Geoff just bought something along the lines
: of 2500W.
Yeah. Also notice that we haven't heard from him since the snow started
to fall. Coincidence?
--
Sherwood Harrington
Astronomy Department
DeAnza College
Cupertino, California
mag...@rahul.net
Harrington <sher...@rahul.net> put fingers to keyboard and
typed:
>Dirt Devil (gl...@deeptht.armory.com.) wrote:
>: In article <3A8C28BC...@eng.Sun.COM>,
>: darrell earnshaw <Darrell....@Sun.com> wrote:
>: >Hi Folks,
>: >
>: >Sorry to open the subject of generators again,
>
>: If I remember correctly, Geoff just bought something along the lines
>: of 2500W.
>
>Yeah. Also notice that we haven't heard from him since the snow started
>to fall. Coincidence?
Given the roads, I'd suspect his stated driving habits
contributing to his absence (in this group) before I'd suspect
his generator.
jc
Dirt Devil
>
>2500 is enough if you're just running the fridge and a laptop.
Interesting.
We run a small frige, a 5 cu ft freezer, lights, TV and the computer
all at the same time (plus a few other small draws that aren't worth
mentioning).
When we use the microwave or the toaster, we unplug the frige and
freezer, just because, when the previous ones got old, they couldn't
handle the additional 1kW, so it's mostly habit.
Dirt Devil
Andrew Knutsen <and...@sco.com> wrote:
>
> When I was shopping last year, I bought a Coleman 3KW with a Tecumsa
>(sp?)
>OHV motor. It cost $377 at Home Depot. Our theory is that Coleman is/was
>trying to improve their reputation, and is/was selling this model at discount.
>Its only problem, so far, is that the gas tank is miniscule (maybe thats why
>its so cheap); needs filling every hour (or a siphon arrangement). Also, I
>think the carb ices in cold weather (colder than we get here).
I was gonna tell about my Mickey Mouse setup that I used on an old B&S
generator. As I started describing what it was, I thought "Now, why
the heck did I do that?"
OK, I just got a 20 gallon gas tank off of an old car (we live in the
mountains -- lots of old cars around) and just mounted it a bit above
the carb. Ran a fuel line from that to the carb inlet on the
generator.
Only had to fill it about once a week.
> I also use an inverter/charger -- Heart Interface 2KW.
There ya go! Kinda nice, huh? A lot quieter than a generator.
Jim King
in motors. Flat head engines are inherently thirstier than overhead valve
engines, for any given power level. They are also lower quality products,
at least those used in small generator sets.
I still have occasional fantasies about the 50kW diesel genset that our
beloved Santa Cruz Senile was selling, back in about 1988, for $5000. I
didn't call them, but I imagine it needed a $5000 overhaul on the electrical
end and twice that on the engine. Still, it makes for a nice fantasy; my
whole electric service is only wired for 22kW.
Jim
DarrellEarnshaw
concensus seems to be buy Honda... if I can find one at a reasonable price.
(Damn, if this was only 2000, then there would be an excess of Y2K units
around!)
Once again, thanks.
-- Darrell.
Sherwood Harrington
: Hey guys, thanks for the many useful responses. It looks like the general
: concensus seems to be buy Honda... if I can find one at a reasonable price.
: (Damn, if this was only 2000, then there would be an excess of Y2K units
: around!)
Yes, Honda seems to be the choice hereabouts. One thing that hasn't come
up in this thread, though, is that Hondas are very ugly and you'll have to
use a lot of ingenuity to make it acceptable-looking to your neighbors.
As we found in this district last November, you really have to be cuneen
to make a Honda look good.
Dirt Devil
Sherwood Harrington <sher...@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>Yes, Honda seems to be the choice hereabouts. One thing that hasn't come
>up in this thread, though, is that Hondas are very ugly and you'll have to
>use a lot of ingenuity to make it acceptable-looking to your neighbors.
Just paint it pink. The neighbors will think it's a flamongo lawn
orniment.
Dirt Devil
Dirt Devil <gl...@deeptht.armory.com.> wrote:
>In article <3A8C55E6...@sco.com>,
>
>I was gonna tell about my Mickey Mouse setup that I used on an old B&S
>generator. As I started describing what it was, I thought "Now, why
>the heck did I do that?"
I kept thinking about this and realized why I did it.
That generator wasn't a B&S. It was an older Kawasaki. Pre
electronic ignition.
Starting that motha was a BITCH!
However, the reason that I had to have a Mickey Mouse setup was
because of the type of carburator that it had.
It was a pulse-type carb. It had no bowl in the carburator. The carb
was mounted right on top of the fuel tank (that was the "fuel bowl")
and it used the intake stroke of the engine to suck in a little fuel
on each stroke.
The tank was quite small. So to have it run for any length of time, I
had to have a larger tank.
I "recovered" a 20 gallon tank from an old Ford that we had. However,
without a fuel bowl and a needle valve, I couldn't simply feed that
into the fuel tank of the generator ... not without wasting most of
the gas by "watering" the surrounding area with gas.
So, also from the aforementioned Ford, I also yanked the carburator.
I rethreaded the inlet to accomodate a hose fitting and ran a line
from that to my 20 gallon gas tank mounted slightly above (but well
away from) the generator.
Then I drilled and tapped the bottom of the fuel bowl for another hose
fitting and ran a line from that to the cap of the fuel tank on the
generator.
Now I had a needle valve in the gas line.
Al I had to do was mount this carb at a heigth so that the fuel level
in the bowl was somewhere between the bottom of the generator gas tank
and the top of the generator gas tank. That turned out to be just a
few blocks of wood and a couple of concrete blocks.
Yeah, *very* Mickey Mouse, but with that 20 gallon tank, I could go
virtually a week between having to worry about filling the gas tank.
Fortunately, there are not many (if any) generators using that type of
carburator anymore, so this can now become a "lost art".
Geoff Miller
gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) writes:
> If I remember correctly, Geoff just bought something
> along the lines of 2500W.
I bought a 5 kW Coleman for $399 from Costco. I came to
the conclusion that it was the best value for the occas-
ional sort of use that I had in mind.
My first opportunity to use the thing was last week. I
still don't have a transfer switch yet, so I had to settle
for running an extension cord through the kitchen window
to alternately power the refrigerator and a couple of lamps
in the living room. I was pleasantly surprised by how
easily the engine starts. A very light pull on the starting
rope is all that's needed, and the engine catches on the
first attempt every time.
Geoff
--
"Blaming guns for Columbine is like blaming spoons
for Rosie O'Donnell being fat."
Geoff Miller
mag...@rahul.net sniffs:
> Given the roads, I'd suspect his stated driving habits
> contributing to his absence (in this group) before I'd
> suspect his generator.
All you about my driving habits, sweet cheeks, is that I
don't like slowpokes getting underfoot. Anything beyond
that is mere supposition on your part. The way that some
of you (and you in particular) continue to run from pillar
to post with these bizarre assumptions about my driving
habits never ceases to astound me.
The generator's been working fine, although I haven't tried
to power my computer with it yet. And I've been too busy
at work recently to post from there.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>The generator's been working fine, although I haven't tried
>to power my computer with it yet. And I've been too busy
>at work recently to post from there.
>Geoff
Last week, I did a service call on a small home/office in Bonny Dune.
The place has about 6 computers, 2 laser printers, a copy machine, fax
machine, Netgear ISDN router, 4 line Panasonic phone system, various
UPS's, and the usual collection of home entertainment electronics. There
was snow everywhere. After 4 hours of doing battle with the computers
(updates, virus cleanup, VPN mis-configuration), someone mentioned that
they'll need to turn off the generator as the neighbors didn't like the
noise at night. I didn't even hear the generator running and there was
no problems running any of the electronics. Usually, the APC Back-UPS
flavour hates generators and bleeps its complaints. Not this time. On
the way out, I found the generator. Honda 5500 with a propane
conversion.
I also service other businesses and homes with generators. In general,
the one's what work well use some form of *LARGE* Honda generator. I
know of 2ea local ISP's that have Honda generators with no apparent UPS
or computer problems.
My neighbor has some form of Costco something generator. The compressor
motor in her refridgerator just blew up. The service guy says it was the
generator that killed it. Dunno if this is true but it seems likely.
I have a Honda ESP-4500 with a blown field winding, fried diodes, and
melted nylon insulators. I won't say anything nice about the generator
and regulator section, but the engine is quiet and reliable. Electric
start is so nice.
Personally, I prefer nuclear powered thermocouple generators. No noise,
no consumeable fuel, no smog, and very reliable. However, they're not on
the market yet.
--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
(831)421-6491 pgr (831)426-1240 fax (831)336-2558 home
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com WB6SSY
je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us je...@cruzio.com
Sherwood Harrington
[snip]
: Personally, I prefer nuclear powered thermocouple generators. No noise,
: no consumeable fuel, no smog, and very reliable. However, they're not on
: the market yet.
That depends on what part of the solar system you're in. There are at
least four of them coasting outward beyond Neptune (Voyagers 1 &2,
Pioneers 10 & 11 -- although 11's has evidently crapped out and will need
some service) that aren't doing much of anything. Like appliances left on
the side of the road in Boulder Creek's environs, they can be had for
merely the cost of picking them up. A warning, though -- those spacecraft
RTG's don't put out much wattage.
Jim King
reconditioned). On the downside, they're intended for deep (100 fathom)
immersion in salt water and have a gamma field circa 5 RAD/hr at 1m.
Jim
Daniel Veditz
>
> One thing that hasn't come up in this thread, though, is that
> ingenuity to make it acceptable-looking to your neighbors.
>
> As we found in this district last November, you really have to be cuneen
> to make a Honda look good.
Augh! Bad, Sherwood, bad!
-Dan Veditz
Dirt Devil
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>
>I also service other businesses and homes with generators. In general,
>the one's what work well use some form of *LARGE* Honda generator.
Perhaps that is because they have *LARGE* loads (energy pigs).
>My neighbor has some form of Costco something generator. The compressor
>motor in her refridgerator just blew up. The service guy says it was the
>generator that killed it. Dunno if this is true but it seems likely.
"The first step in solving a problem is naming a scapegoat."
Somebody said something like "Man has a need to have an answer. If
they can't find a good answer, a bad answer will do" (I badly botched
it, but that was the essence).
I have, after a dozen different generators, never had even the
slightest problem with a generator taking out any appliances.
I did, though, after having an inverter fail, lose a number of things,
apparently due to the failure of the inverter (Powerstar). I
*thought* that it had taken out our freexer, but when I got back with
a generator, the freezer worked fine.
Still dead are an old dot matrix printer (GOOD!) and our stereo system
(also good that it took that out -- it gives me incentive to
eventually upgrade. That system was bought in the mid 70s).
>I have a Honda ESP-4500 with a blown field winding, fried diodes, and
>melted nylon insulators. I won't say anything nice about the generator
>and regulator section, but the engine is quiet and reliable. Electric
>start is so nice.
The "regulator" on a Honda generator is the governor on the motor
(frequency) and the windings (voltage).
Face it. You simply have an old, used up generator. Simply replace
the generator portion and keep going.
Although, I will suggest that, when it is used enough for either the
engine or the generator to need replacement, it is usually best to
replace the entire unit, because of all of the other bits that are
about to go. I understand that the Honda generators are designed for
only 4000 hours ... although, with more use and better maintenance, I
usually get 3 to 5 times that many hours out of them.
>Personally, I prefer nuclear powered thermocouple generators. No noise,
>no consumeable fuel, no smog, and very reliable. However, they're not on
>the market yet.
Given the rainfall in this area, early on I considered a water-driven
turbine. I even went so far as to dig a huge reservoir on the upper
part of the property.
Then I discovered fuel cells.
I thought "Kool! That would be a way to get year around power, here."
In the summer, I could use PV to disassociate the hydrogen from the
oxygen, store the hydrogen and use it to power the fuel cells.
Just *imagine* the possibilities for meltdown with *that* setup.
Dirt Devil
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>My first opportunity to use the thing was last week. I
>still don't have a transfer switch yet, so I had to settle
>for running an extension cord through the kitchen window
>to alternately power the refrigerator and a couple of lamps
>in the living room.
Why would you alternatively power the frige and lights? With that
size of generator, you should be able to power the frige and computer
all of the time at the same time.
>I was pleasantly surprised by how
>easily the engine starts. A very light pull on the starting
>rope is all that's needed, and the engine catches on the
>first attempt every time.
Yup, the Hondas (and most of the other generators, now) have automatic
compression releases (easy pull start) and electronic ignition.
Kinda blissful, huh?
Jim King
something about my problem), and Honda has 2 generators that incorporate
inverters which produce (they claim) pure sine wave power and low fuel
consumption at light loads. They can also be operated in parallel, although
it's not clear from the sales literature how many units you can run in
parallel.
Jim
Rich Seifert
je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us wrote:
> Usually, the APC Back-UPS
> flavour hates generators and bleeps its complaints. Not this time. On
> the way out, I found the generator. Honda 5500 with a propane
> conversion.
>
I also have never had any trouble with my Back-UPS, running off a 5 kW Honda.
--
Rich Seifert Networks and Communications Consulting
ri...@richseifert.com 21885 Bear Creek Way
(408) 395-5700 Los Gatos, CA 95033
(408) 395-1966 FAX
Geoff Miller
gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) writes:
> Somebody said something like "Man has a need to have
> an answer. If they can't find a good answer, a bad
> answer will do" (I badly botched it, but that was the
> essence).
"I was gratified to be able to answer. I said I didn't
know." -- Mark Twain
Dirt Devil
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>"I was gratified to be able to answer. I said I didn't
>know." -- Mark Twain
The three most beautiful words in the English language are not "I love
you", but "I don't know", cuz then, everybody knows where to start
looking.
I. Hate Spammers
> > flavour hates generators and bleeps its complaints. Not this time. On
> > the way out, I found the generator. Honda 5500 with a propane
> > conversion.
> >
>
> I also have never had any trouble with my Back-UPS, running off a 5 kW
Honda.
APC Back-UPS hate bad grounds. In fact, they may not work at all if the
ground fault indicator is on.
The cheap Tripplite 650VA UPS sold at Costco seems to work perfectly with no
ground at all (one of my PC's at home is in a room that has only 2 prong
outlets).
-jrp
Geoff Miller
gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) wonders:
> Why would you alternatively power the frige and lights?
Because I only had one suitable extension cord at the time.
That situation has since been rectified (heh).
Incidentally, how critical is it to use a grounding rod
with a generator? The directions specify that one be
used, but none was included and I've been unable to find
one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
scrap tubing or something. I suppose I could use a
section of the electrical conduit left over from assem-
bling my driveway canopy, if I can come up with a way of
attaching it to the generator.
I endured a comedy of errors the other day when I went
to Sears in Mountain View to see whether they sold
grounding rods for generators. It seemed reasonable to
check, since they sell the generators themselves, afer
all. And I was already in the area, so I figured what
the hell.
The store employee who came to assist me was friendly
and aggressively helpful. Unfortunately, there were a
couple of obstacles. One was that she was a woman, and
so it wasn't surprising that she was unfamiliar with
generator stuff and didn't understand what it was that
I wanted. (Why would the store assign a woman to the
tool department? That's crazy; it's like putting a guy
in the baby-clothing or kitchenware department and
expecting the poor shmuck to deal usefully with
customers.)
And on top of that, the woman was a Hispanic immigrant
who spoke poor English. I certainly gave her an "A" for
effort, though. I had the Devil's own time diplomatically
convincing her that while I appreciated her efforts at
assistance, I'd prefer to just look around on my own.
> Yup, the Hondas (and most of the other generators, now)
> have automatic compression releases (easy pull start)
> and electronic ignition.
I figured there must be automatic compression release, but
the owner's manual doesn't say anything about it. You'd
think they jump at the opportunity to tout it as a feature.
Whatever, it sure is nice. That big 10-horsepower engine
starts more easily than any lawnmower I've ever used.
mag...@rahul.net
ba.mountain-folkba.mountain-folk, geo...@u1.netgate.net (Geoff
Miller) put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>
>Incidentally, how critical is it to use a grounding rod
>with a generator? The directions specify that one be
>used, but none was included and I've been unable to find
>one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
>available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
>scrap tubing or something. I suppose I could use a
>section of the electrical conduit left over from assem-
>bling my driveway canopy, if I can come up with a way of
>attaching it to the generator.
In dry areas you need to drive a grounding rod into the ground
deep enough that it reaches soil that is always damp. For this
reason, grounding rods differ according to the location where
they are installed, it makes no sense to include one with every
item that needs to be grounded.
In your area (presumably in damp San Lorenzo Valley), you don't
need to worry much about getting to "ground". If you have metal
plumbing, ground the generator via a wire that wraps around a
metal water pipe (that goes into the ground). If your driveway
canopy was secured by metal that goes into the ground, you can
ground to that. If neither of these work for your situation, I
suggest you use rebar. Buy a piece of rebar, drive it into the
ground ~2 feet (deep enough that it stays in place, deepness
needed for stability rather than for grounding purposes), bend
the top over into a U so you won't gouge yourself on the exposed
end, then attach a ground wire to that.
HTH
jc
I. Hate Spammers
> with a generator? The directions specify that one be
> used, but none was included and I've been unable to find
> one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
> available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
> scrap tubing or something. I suppose I could use a
> section of the electrical conduit left over from assem-
> bling my driveway canopy, if I can come up with a way of
> attaching it to the generator.
they sell ground rod (copper plated 1/4" steel rod with a pointy end) at
Riverside Electric, along with suitable wiring clamps. Generally 6-8' long
is adequate. its easiest to drive after a long series of wet weather so the
ground is nice and soft. After hammering it in, expect a major mushroom on
the end to be hacksawed off, alternately, put the clamp on the rod FIRST.
DAMHIK. :)
Dirt Devil
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>Because I only had one suitable extension cord at the time.
>That situation has since been rectified (heh).
Running DC now? Kinda makes me think back fondly of the Good Old Daze
(tm) when we were simply running 12V to everything in the house.
>Incidentally, how critical is it to use a grounding rod
>with a generator?
Not absolutely, as you have discovered.
>one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
>available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
>scrap tubing or something. I suppose I could use a
>section of the electrical conduit left over from assem-
>bling my driveway canopy, if I can come up with a way of
>attaching it to the generator.
OK, starting with what you have, drive that conduit into the ground
(earth). Kinda near the genset is best.
Then go to almost any hardware store and pick up a pipe clamp of a
suitable size (kind of a toothed looking thing where the teeth are
facing the pipe from two sides, tied together with a coupla screws).
It will have a wire clamp on it.
Then just run a piece of wire (something like 10 ga) between the wire
clamp on the pipe clamp and the ground on the genset.
Make sure that the wire is long enough so that you can move the
generator around for maintenance without pulling it loose.
>I endured a comedy of errors the other day when I went
>to Sears in Mountain View to see whether they sold
>grounding rods for generators. It seemed reasonable to
>check, since they sell the generators themselves, afer
>all.
Since what follows is a pretty amazing collection of stereotypes, I
don't feel too bad in asking if this store was opened on sundays.
>The store employee who came to assist me was friendly
>and aggressively helpful. Unfortunately, there were a
>couple of obstacles. One was that she was a woman, and
>so it wasn't surprising that she was unfamiliar with
>generator stuff and didn't understand what it was that
>I wanted.
The salesperson who sold us our generator was a woman and quite
knowledgable about both generators and about motorcycles.
Well, plus she was a looker and awfully sweet as well.
>(Why would the store assign a woman to the
>tool department?
Quotas? Just to piss off people like you? So her husband could have
a little peace and quiet occasionally? Because she is thinking of
starting a brothel and needed to get customers *someplace*?
>That's crazy; it's like putting a guy
>in the baby-clothing or kitchenware department and
>expecting the poor shmuck to deal usefully with
>customers.)
I dunno. I take exception to both of those!
>And on top of that, the woman was a Hispanic immigrant
>who spoke poor English.
Not to worry. If Bush has his way, soon she'll be back in Mexico
running a nuclear power plant.
>I certainly gave her an "A" for
>effort, though. I had the Devil's own time diplomatically
>convincing her that while I appreciated her efforts at
>assistance, I'd prefer to just look around on my own.
Didja ask her out? Remember -- those foreigners speak a different
language, so you "can't understand them" when they say "no".
>I figured there must be automatic compression release, but
>the owner's manual doesn't say anything about it. You'd
>think they jump at the opportunity to tout it as a feature.
By the time that you were reading the owner's manual, you had already
purchased the genset. Why would they have to continue selling you on
it?
There is no maintenance on the compression release (aside from simply
changing oil), so what's the benefit of including information about
it in there?
Ya want information about it? Get the service manual. Lots of kool
pictures.
>Whatever, it sure is nice. That big 10-horsepower engine
>starts more easily than any lawnmower I've ever used.
You mean that you don't have a turbo-charged riding lawnmower so that
you can terrify yer neighbors early on sunday mornings ... while the
motorcycle shops are closed?
Dirt Devil
I. Hate Spammers <sp...@here.not> wrote:
>
>they sell ground rod (copper plated 1/4" steel rod with a pointy end) at
>Riverside Electric, along with suitable wiring clamps. Generally 6-8' long
>is adequate. its easiest to drive after a long series of wet weather so the
>ground is nice and soft. After hammering it in, expect a major mushroom on
>the end to be hacksawed off, alternately, put the clamp on the rod FIRST.
>DAMHIK. :)
Geeze, John! Do you accomplish *everything* with overkill?
Well, *real* overkill would be a *gold* plated ground rod instead of
one of those cheap copper plated ones.
I just use standard old steel pipe. It'll provide a good ground for
many times more than the life of the generator.
Doncha use the ground clamps that open? I find that to be much easier
that fighting with getting one on the pipe after having beaten the
pipe into a head.
Ian Kluft
>[...] Incidentally, how critical is it to use a grounding rod
>with a generator? The directions specify that one be
>used, but none was included and I've been unable to find
>one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
>available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
Get a real grounding rod - don't skimp.
6 years ago I got an 8-foot copper grounding rod at Orchard Supply Hardware.
Home Depot may have them too. It should be in the "electrical" aisles.
Besides a proper grounding for your generator, antennas (including
satellite dishes) should be properly grounded for best performance, and
to make them less of a target for lightning. And a grounding rod is the
best way to do that. A metal cold water pipe may also work. But in the
mountains, you'll have to judge if it makes enough distance underground
from your tank. The usual advice is not to use a hot water or gas pipe,
but you probably don't have gas pipes in the mountains so that's one less
thing to worry about.
A year and a half ago, having all my antennas on my house properly
grounded with that grounding rod probably saved my house (in San Jose)
from a lightning strike. A tree in my backyard (which is shorter than
some of my Ham Radio antennas) got a limb sheared off by lightning.
I had always been told to properly ground antennas just in case of
lightning, but never expected I'd acutally *need* it. :-) I'm glad
I followed the advice.
Rich Seifert
<sp...@here.not> wrote:
>
> APC Back-UPS hate bad grounds. In fact, they may not work at all if the
> ground fault indicator is on.
>
Interesting. I was having problems with my Back-UPS initially, where it
would drop power at the output for apparently no reason at all. (What good
is a UPS that randomly un-powers its load?) After some troubleshooting, I
discovered that it was related to the ground connection; I found that it
works reliably when I *completely disconnect* the ground connection. I
removed the ground pin from the power plug, and it has worked perfectly for
years now.
Geoff Miller
gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) writes:
> Since what follows is a pretty amazing collection
> of stereotypes, I don't feel too bad in asking if
> this store was opened on sundays.
Sure it is; why? Sears is a mainstream department store
that's patronized by normal, responsible citizens.
As for stereotypes, I find that they exist for a reason.
It's fashionable to righteously rail against them on the
basis that they're not universally applicable, but that's
a strawman; nobody claims that they are.
> The salesperson who sold us our generator was a woman
> and quite knowledgable about both generators and about
> motorcycles.
The point isn't that such women don't exist, but that
they're relatively rare. Men and women tend to be
(note: *tend* to be) interested in different things.
This means that oftentimes, when they find themselves
in environments that are normally associated with the
opposite sex, they're out of their depth. Consider
the following example.
I come from a nautical family. I once went into a marine
chandlery with my father to obtain some sort of gizmo for
his trawler's electrical system. This particular shop is
run by a husband and wife team.
As we walked through the aisles, my father took a circuitous
route and told me that he was doing this to avoid speaking
with the proprietress. Why? Because after a lifetime of
dealing with such situations, he knew that being a woman,
she was quite likely unfamiliar with technical matters and
wouldn't understand what it was he needed -- and would only
end up asking her husband, anyway. Therefore, speaking with
her would've been a waste of his time and hers, and it made
sense to go straight to the husband. So he took a roundabout
oute through the store in the hope of getting to Hubby without
being intercepted by Wifey.
Alas, Wifey was determined and cut us off at the pass; it
was in the lines-and-fenders aisle, as I recall. My father
sighed and dutifully explained what he needed. Predictably,
Wifey was confused and toddled off to consult with her
husband. At this point my father turned to me and sported
a smug little Will Rogers smile.
> Well, plus she was a looker and awfully sweet as well.
Nice tits? I think Gloria Steinem has pretty nice tits
for an older broad. I wonder if she can cook...
> There is no maintenance on the compression release
> (aside from simply changing oil), so what's the
> benefit of including information about it in there?
I expected it to be mentioned in passing in the owner's
manual because such features often are. Even though
someone has already bought something, pointing out its
features in the manual is a great opportunity to give
the purchaser some warm-n-fuzzies and make him feel
extra-good about his purchase. This creates fertile
ground for the purchase of other Coleman products.
Like the false canopy painted on the undersides of
Canadian Forces CF-18s to disorient enemy pilots, the
results are difficult to quantify. But then, every
little bit helps, so if you can do something to tip
the odds in your favor a little bit, why not do it?
There's no maintenance required for the pop-out cord
holders, either, but *those* are mentioned in the
manual.
> You mean that you don't have a turbo-charged riding
> lawnmower so that you can terrify yer neighbors early
> on sunday mornings ... while the motorcycle shops are
> closed?
Maybe if I had a lawn, I would. Next time...
My position re: motorcycle shops being closed on Sundays
must've really rubbed you raw, eh?
Dirt Devil
Dirt Devil
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>
>gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) writes:
>
>> Since what follows is a pretty amazing collection
>> of stereotypes, I don't feel too bad in asking if
>> this store was opened on sundays.
>
>Sure it is; why? Sears is a mainstream department store
>that's patronized by normal, responsible citizens.
AND you, right?
>As for stereotypes, I find that they exist for a reason.
>It's fashionable to righteously rail against them on the
>basis that they're not universally applicable, but that's
>a strawman; nobody claims that they are.
Think of me as nothing but yer trolling motor. I won't hook any fish
for ya, but I'm happy to take you out where ya can catch the big
ones.
>Alas, Wifey was determined and cut us off at the pass; it
>was in the lines-and-fenders aisle, as I recall. My father
>sighed and dutifully explained what he needed. Predictably,
>Wifey was confused and toddled off to consult with her
>husband. At this point my father turned to me and sported
>a smug little Will Rogers smile.
So, think of her much like the little bell on the door to announce
customers.
>> Well, plus she was a looker and awfully sweet as well.
>
>Nice tits?
Ya know, I'm kinda ashamed to admit this, but I honestly didn't
notice. I'm more of a face man.
>I think Gloria Steinem has pretty nice tits
>for an older broad. I wonder if she can cook...
Don't remind me about her! I'm pissed! I always had the impression
that she was the type to never get married, so I married Kathy. Then,
all these years later, she decides to cave.
BTW, her tits are the same ones she has always had, even when she
wasn't "old" (*somebody* has a strange idea of what "old" is).
>manual because such features often are. Even though
>someone has already bought something, pointing out its
>features in the manual is a great opportunity to give
>the purchaser some warm-n-fuzzies and make him feel
>extra-good about his purchase.
And here I was thinking that the first gentle pull of the rope would
accomplish that.
>There's no maintenance required for the pop-out cord
>holders, either, but *those* are mentioned in the
>manual.
I'm just *guessing* here, that some explaination *might* be required
for some folks (women?) to perhaps even notice that they are there.
No explaination would be required for the automatic compression
relief.
>> You mean that you don't have a turbo-charged riding
>> lawnmower so that you can terrify yer neighbors early
>> on sunday mornings ... while the motorcycle shops are
>> closed?
>
>Maybe if I had a lawn, I would. Next time...
I remember seeing (although it was darkish) an area by the house that
*could* be planted with grass seed ... of your choosing.
>My position re: motorcycle shops being closed on Sundays
>must've really rubbed you raw, eh?
Well, it keep ya coming back.
Julian Macassey
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>Incidentally, how critical is it to use a grounding rod
>with a generator? The directions specify that one be
>used, but none was included and I've been unable to find
>one for sale. I have the impression that they're not
>available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
>scrap tubing or something.
Radio Shack carries grounding rods. So does every damn
electrical wholesaler and store. They can also be found at Alltel
by the SFO airport.
You can make them out of 1/2 Ins copper tubing too, but
you shouldn't hammer those into the ground but "drill" them in by
running a hose through the pipe.
Ground your generator. It is worth the trouble.
--
Excel seems to be a kind of trap for weak minds. - Speedbump
<speedb...@yahoo.co.uk>
Julian Macassey
Geoff Miller <geo...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>
>gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) writes:
>
>> Since what follows is a pretty amazing collection
>> of stereotypes, I don't feel too bad in asking if
>> this store was opened on sundays.
>
>It's fashionable to righteously rail against them on the
>basis that they're not universally applicable, but that's
>a strawman; nobody claims that they are.
>
Liberals don't believe in stereotypes, except of course
when deriding "Mean spirited Republicans", "Right wing
fundamentalists", "rednecks", "Gun owners", and multinational
corporations.
HTH
John R Pierce
errrr, thats 1/2", heh. solid too.
-jrp
ph...@pureheart.com
Orchard Supply has them in 1/2" and 5/8" inch sizes. Copper-clad steel or
something or other that did not bend when I drove it in for the solar array.
They also sell the appropriate clamp(s). Don't recall pricing, but I don't
think I was *too* disgruntled.
pH
>> I have the impression that they're not
>>available per se, but must be cobbled together out of
>>scrap tubing or something. I suppose I could use a
>>section of the electrical conduit left over from assem-
>>bling my driveway canopy, if I can come up with a way of
>>attaching it to the generator.
>jc
--
> ph...@sasquatch.com <
Felis Concolor
> Liberals don't believe in stereotypes, except of course
>when deriding "Mean spirited Republicans", "Right wing
>fundamentalists", "rednecks", "Gun owners", and multinational
>corporations.
Agreed, for the most part. However, don't you have as little use
for multinational corporations as any liberal? You may believe in
their right to exist, but I've never heard you have much good to say
about them.
Lenore Levine
P.S. As a right-winger, Julian, can you think of any reasonable ways
to minimize their power, without strengthening something worse?
--
"By then, the arrival of a gang of unemployed Roto Rooter
technicians moonlighting as attack proctologists would have
been a welcome diversion." -- Stephen L. Burns
HFJackson
> Honda has 2 generators that incorporate
>inverters which produce (they claim) pure sine wave power and low fuel
>consumption at light loads. They can also be operated in parallel, although
>it's not clear from the sales literature how many units you can run in
>parallel.
You can only run 2 generators and they must be the same model (i. e. 2 EU3000s
or 2 EU1000s). People who've bought them from us for specific computer
applications have actually called back to tell us how impressed they were with
the "cleaness" of the power.
The use of the inverter frees the engine from the necessity of running at 3600
rpms under light loads - thus the fuel efficiency.
Honda claims about 7.5 hours on a 2.4 gal. tank.
I've been using an EU3000 since last Tuesday, but the outages have been erratic
so I can't verify this yet.
Only drawbacks - no 220 on these units and they're pricey.
Harry
(hfja...@aol.com)
hfjackson
Dirt Devil
Why?
A standard steel pipe will do just fine. It has more strength to
stand up to being pounded in the ground (not that big of a deal,
considering how soft the earth is, now) and is cheap and easy to find.
I pounded on in the ground when we first moved up here and it is still
in fine shape.
mag...@rahul.net
gl...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil) put fingers to keyboard
and typed:
>In article <G90uw...@thunder.sbay.org>,
>Ian Kluft <ikl...@thunder.sbay.org> wrote:
>>
>>Get a real grounding rod - don't skimp.
>
>Why?
In places where it's hard to ground something (meaning arid
places) copper is the best conductor to ground. In the San
Lorenzo mountain area, using copper is superfluous.
jc
Geoff Miller
jul...@bokassa.tele.com (Julian Macassey) writes:
> Radio Shack carries grounding rods. So does every damn
> electrical wholesaler and store.
Thanks. Going to Radio Shack would never have occurred
to me, since I associate them with home electronics, toys,
and taped-up glasses/pocket protector stuff like electronic
components and ham radio antennas. I'll try there or OSH
sometime today. Isn't the generator already grounded to
the house via the grounding prong on any extension cord
that I plug into it, though?
Christ, getting a generator isn't neary as simple and
straightforward (not to mention cheap) as it sounds, is
it? Every time I think I finally have all that I need,
there's some new item to track down and shell out for.
In addition to the generator itself, you have to pay half
that much again for a transfer switch, plus whatever an
electrician dings you to install it. The transfer switch
I bought from Graybar Electric is just a box with a switch
on it; there's no receptacle to plug a cable into, which
is something _else_ that'll need to be found. Now there's
a grounding rod to buy. Eventually, I suppose I'll end up
paying fifty bucks for the wheel and handle kit so that I
can move the thing in and out of my shed (once it finally
gets rebuilt) without throwing my back out. Mother of
sweating Jesus, where will it all end?
Tim May
> jul...@bokassa.tele.com (Julian Macassey) writes:
>
> > Radio Shack carries grounding rods. So does every damn
> > electrical wholesaler and store.
>
>
> Thanks. Going to Radio Shack would never have occurred
> to me, since I associate them with home electronics, toys,
> and taped-up glasses/pocket protector stuff like electronic
> components and ham radio antennas. I'll try there or OSH
> sometime today. Isn't the generator already grounded to
> the house via the grounding prong on any extension cord
> that I plug into it, though?
If you use a suicide cord and plug the generator into the house wiring,
yes. However, this is...inadvisable.
If you are going through a transfer switch installed properly, then it
should be grounded by the electrician (or DIYer) who installed it. Check
to make sure the house grounding rods or connections to cold water pipes
are on the right side of the transfer switch.
If you are plugging extension cords into the generator and then plugging
lights, computers, appliances, etc. into the extension cord and its
outlets, then, no, it is NOT grounded.
>
> Christ, getting a generator isn't neary as simple and
> straightforward (not to mention cheap) as it sounds, is
> it? Every time I think I finally have all that I need,
> there's some new item to track down and shell out for.
>
> In addition to the generator itself, you have to pay half
> that much again for a transfer switch, plus whatever an
> electrician dings you to install it. The transfer switch
> I bought from Graybar Electric is just a box with a switch
> on it; there's no receptacle to plug a cable into, which
> is something _else_ that'll need to be found. Now there's
> a grounding rod to buy. Eventually, I suppose I'll end up
> paying fifty bucks for the wheel and handle kit so that I
> can move the thing in and out of my shed (once it finally
> gets rebuilt) without throwing my back out. Mother of
> sweating Jesus, where will it all end?
This is why buying a generator for that storm last week was not
something most people did....
--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May tc...@got.net Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Tim May
<tc...@got.net> wrote:
> If you are going through a transfer switch installed properly, then it
> should be grounded by the electrician (or DIYer) who installed it. Check
> to make sure the house grounding rods or connections to cold water pipes
> are on the right side of the transfer switch.
Lest there be any confusion, by "right side of the transfer switch" I of
course mean "correct side."
Properly installed, the transfer switch will use the normal grounding
rods or pipes of the house system. Improperly installed, it might not.