Ammiano's Campaign Needs $$ & Volunteers
David Kaye
(1) You do not need to be a San Francisco resident or registered to vote
in SF to donate; lots of people from across the country are donating to
this historic campaign.
(2) Election law sets a limit of $250 for a campaign contribution. (Unlike
people such as Willie Brown who have quasi-legal "friends of" funds to try
to get around that law, Tom's campaign is totally honest and above board.
There is *one* campaign fund.)
(3) Donations above $100 MUST carry the name of the contributor's employer
and their job title. Just write it on the check itself. This is
sufficient. As a purely ethical matter, volunteers at Tom's campaign have
requested that all donations be marked like this just to be absolutely
100% kosher.
(4) You may drop off your check at Tom Ammiano's campaign HQ at Josie's
(corner of 16th and Noe, at Market), OR
Mail checks made payable to "Tom Ammiano For Mayor" to:
Ammiano for Mayor
125 Upper Terrace
San Francisco, CA 94117
People may also REGISTER TO VOTE at Josie's from 10am to 8pm. Just walk
in and talk to any volunteer. If you live in SF *TODAY* at this moment,
even if you did not vote in the election last week, you *ARE* eligible to
vote (unless you've committed certain felonies, etc.)
I've talked to many people who had never voted until the election a few
days ago. I've talked to people who didn't vote in that election, but are
so fired up that they want to vote NOW. All it takes is filling out a
short voter registration card.
You do *not* have to register as a Democrat to vote for Tom; I'm
registered as a Green, other people who are voting for Tom are registered
as Republicans. (Yes, Republicans are backing Tom because he supports the
neighborhoods.)
The concern is whether SF will be a city for the neighborhood residents or
if it will continue as a city of chain stores, high-priced hotels, and the
total domination of the city by big corporations. Tom Ammiano is our only
choice if we're going to keep SF for its residents and make City Hall
listen to the neighborhoods.
--
(C) 1999 DEADLINE FOR VOTER REGISTRATION for the SF Runoff
David Kaye is November 15. Find out how you can register:
dk at wco.com http://www.ammiano4mayor.com/
Michael Wise
<d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
> The concern is whether SF will be a city for the neighborhood residents or
> if it will continue as a city of chain stores, high-priced hotels, and the
> total domination of the city by big corporations. Tom Ammiano is our only
> choice if we're going to keep SF for its residents and make City Hall
> listen to the neighborhoods.
For all its residents...as long as you're not a white heterosexual male or
a Catholic...granted, we may only be about 15-20% of the City's
population...but Tom doesn't seem to give a damn about us...or about
anything or anybody in the western parts of the City. If it isn't wrapped
in some sort of gay or "people-of-color" rights agenda (United Airlines,
et al) or it isn't aimed at offending the Catholic church and all its
members (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence), then Tom just doesn't care. He
continues to inflame and alienate groups who don't share his views.
At least Willie has some semblence of being able to listen to all sites.
He certainly has a lot of faults, so I will hold my nose as I pick the
lesser of two evils.
Tom has no chance of carrying anymore than the approx 40% he got in the
primary (almost all concentrated in a narrow geographic area). He's burnt
too many bridges with the moderate and conservative electorate to come
sucking up to us now.
geoff
: (2) Election law sets a limit of $250 for a campaign contribution. (Unlike
: people such as Willie Brown who have quasi-legal "friends of" funds to try
: to get around that law, Tom's campaign is totally honest and above board.
: There is *one* campaign fund.)
Okay... sorry.. this one set me off.
Mr Ammiano after months of "maybe I will or maybe I won't"
suddenly decides "I will" after all of the debates with
the other candidates? I'm not sure how honest that is...
Seems like he's playing the political game pretty darn
well.
I may still vote for the guy, but his bypassing the
debates that all the other candidates submitted themselves
to says something to me.
-geoff
Bill Bixby
Hey, I was a precinct captain for Clint Reilly, who spent 9 years
in the seminary and who's on the Board of Directors of Catholic
Charities, which runs half the soup kitchens in SF, before
Willie Brown destroyed his $4 million dollar reputation with a
bunch of dirty overblown rumors. Yes, Clint slapped his
girlfriend after she slapped him in the eye. They were both
drunk. But that's it. The fact that GAY Jack Davis, whom Clint
took under his wing at a time when gays were being discriminated
against, jumped ship when Clint wanted to re-represent honest
Mayor Frank Jordan for a 2nd term, was the source of all these
slanders makes me wonder about the integrity of the Brown
campaign. They don't care who they hire or what they say, so
long as they win. Now I'm working for Ammiano. So are a lot of
former Reilly campaign workers. Ammiano has more Christian
compassion in his little finger than Willie Brown has had in his
whole lifetime. You can't beat the Irish (and Father Boyle) and
the whole bunch of good, decent second and third generation San
Franciscans who worked on the Reilly campaign for wanting what's
best for San Francisco.
Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
Christianity is not diametrically opposed to the gay rights
movement. Christianity stands for the underdog. It opposes all
expressions of ego. Ammiano did not mean to be a dismissive of
Christianity when he took his stand in support of his gay
sisters. Deep down, where it counts, Ammiano's more catholic
than you or I. He turns his face to expose his other cheek.
When was the last time you did that??
--
To reply remove * in address
j...@igc.org
>> its residents and make City Hall listen to the neighborhoods.
> heterosexual male or a Catholic ... granted, we may only be
> about 15-20% of the City's population ... but Tom doesn't seem
> to give a damn about us ...
=o= I don't know what your problem is, but your comments say
more about the chip on our shoulder than about anything that Tom
Ammiano has done or said.
=o= Just call me another white heterosexual male for Tom.
<_Jym_>
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
DRS
news:nospam-0811...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net...
[..]
: et al) or it isn't aimed at offending the Catholic church and all its
: members (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence), then Tom just doesn't care. He
Threre can be no limit to opposing the evil of Catholicism.
--
e pluribus unum
Michael Wise
<j...@igc.org> wrote:
> >> Tom Ammiano is our only choice if we're going to keep SF for
> >> its residents and make City Hall listen to the neighborhoods.
> > For all its residents ... as long as you're not a white
> > heterosexual male or a Catholic ... granted, we may only be
> > about 15-20% of the City's population ... but Tom doesn't seem
> > to give a damn about us ...
> =o= I don't know what your problem is, but your comments say
> more about the chip on our shoulder than about anything that Tom
> Ammiano has done or said.
I think most of the western side of the City and just about anybody who is
a moderate or conservative (by San Francisco standards) has had good
reason to not support Tom. Not that everything he has done is bad...but he
has said and done enough to inflame and alienate the above groups.
He just doesn't have it in him to rise above being an activist for a
select batch of speicla interest groups and to represent the wishes of ALL
groups in the City. He is not mayorial or leadership material.
> =o= Just call me another white heterosexual male for Tom.
Yeah, all three of you.
--Mike
Big Frank
Michael Wise wrote in message ...
>I think most of the western side of the City and just about anybody who is
>a moderate or conservative (by San Francisco standards) has had good
>reason to not support Tom. Not that everything he has done is bad...but he
>has said and done enough to inflame and alienate the above groups.
>
>He just doesn't have it in him to rise above being an activist for a
>select batch of speicla interest groups and to represent the wishes of ALL
>groups in the City. He is not mayorial or leadership material.
>
>--Mike
Mike:
Once again you say it like it is. Just by looking at the poll numbers this
AM, I see Willie is way ahead of T.A. and will probably hold that wide
margin through the run-off. I think we're all getting a bunch of smoke blown
at us right now by the fringe element, who are simply feeling a bit of power
now, but it won't last. I think the same will happen in the D.A.'s race.
Hallinan has his core, and he won't be able to sway many new voters. Fazio
is the one who stands to increase his numbers substantially, and increase
them he will. Since his numbers are right there with Hallinan, Fazio's only
direction is up, Up, UP!
Mark Robert Stephen
wrote:
>I think most of the western side of the City and just about anybody who is
>a moderate or conservative (by San Francisco standards) has had good
>reason to not support Tom. Not that everything he has done is bad...but he
>has said and done enough to inflame and alienate the above groups.
Please give some examples of what you say.
Marcus
jon_w...@my-deja.com
Debates there will be. Tom agreed to eleven debates before the election.
Yes, Tom got out of the pre primary debates and that's sad but really,
what did we learn from those farces?
What I like about Tom's strategy is that he was able to bypass the
obscene amount of fundraising he would have had to do. Now he can run a
real campaign where his promises will be directed at the people of San
Francisco, not his corporate donors. Can Willie make the same claim?
This is a real grassroots capaign the likes of which hasn't been seen
since the election of Harvey Milk. This is about more than just the
personality of the candidate. This is about the grass roots rising up to
propose a very different kind of city that what has been offered by the
other candidates.
I'm voting for Tom. And I'm also straight. (Not that thre's anything
wrong with that!)
Jon
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mike Reaser
> Oh, thank you, David Kaye! Thank you for crossposting
> to ba.general!!!
Tony, Tony, Tony -- don't you know better than to **DARE**
question The Oracle Of The Castro?
-- Mike Reaser, Atl., GA B2f+tw+cdvg+kvs++l+ aka HickBear on IRC
ICQ 3617758 mhr (at) photobooks.com or spdcc.com or mindspring.com
Always remember to pillage *before* you burn!
SlipperySlope
hahahahaha!
Actually I've often found quite a number of the doctrines of catholicism
to be quite humanistic.
The CHURCH however, is another story. Most persons aren't aware that
the structure of the Church grew out of the structure of the Roman
Emperors!
geoff
: What I like about Tom's strategy is that he was able to bypass the
: obscene amount of fundraising he would have had to do. Now he can run a
: real campaign where his promises will be directed at the people of San
: Francisco, not his corporate donors. Can Willie make the same claim?
Hmm.. seems to be he didn't spend more than a couple
dollars, and look at all the support he got at the
last minute. I don't see how announcing his run ahead
of time and actually attending debates (where we got some
real proposals from the fringe candidates) would have
somehow caused Tom to whip out the wallet and start spending.
In fact, perhaps... I say that Tom (and well.. all the rest
of the candidates) should start stumping for themselves
in public. It doesn't cost that much money to drive
around in a pickup, park for a little bit and start
talking to the people walking down the street. That would
be more effective than spending cash on commercials or flyers
trying to defend themselves from any mudslinging.
: This is a real grassroots capaign the likes of which hasn't been seen
: since the election of Harvey Milk. This is about more than just the
: personality of the candidate. This is about the grass roots rising up to
: propose a very different kind of city that what has been offered by the
: other candidates.
You know, after all is said and done, I'm not really sure
what Tom brings to the table for SF outside of his
constituency. How is he going to make life better
for us on the West Side? Where does he sit on the
de Young museum and Golden Gate Park garage fiasco?
I know he rides MUNI, but what does he actually propose
to make it better?
Maybe there's a website or something with info?
-geoff
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Galitz ge...@astrology.net Providing systems
UNIX Systems Administrator administration
astrology.net through comedy
(415)447-6193 x896
~Artist~
Project Chrysalis
November 30, 1999
Dear friends,
A global butterfly healing is underway. If you are a musician,
performer, artist, gardener, therapist, or in any way interested in helping
people in need, please consider supporting or volunteering for Project
Chrysalis.
San Francisco General Hospital Psychiatric Division is considering
letting us do a multifaceted, holistic, butterfly therapy entertainment
program there. I'm getting this all down on paper in preparation for our
grant proposals for this program. That's the eighth facility this week to
confirm. Nine proposals in all and nine affirmative replies. Others include
the Oakland Children's Hospital, Gilda's Club, two hospices, including the
Coming Home Hospice for Aides patients, a bereavement group, a Suicide
Crisis
Center, and the Thunder Road Juvenile Youth School. We will incorporate
horticulture, art, music, sound, drum, touch, clown, laugh, dance, story
telling, puppeteers, mime and theater as therapy in bringing joy and healing
entertainment to adults as well as children who need it. We will go
wherever
there is a need.
We will first do a news conference at Children's Hospital (tentative),
Oakland and San Francisco City Halls, and then onward to Sacramento to do
some public interest lobbying. Imagine mimes, clowns, minstrels, and belly
dancers walking the halls of the State Capitol in Sacramento lobbying for
getting pesticides out of schools or countering the gun lobby in support of
nonviolence legislation. This will not occur before the end of October.
Last week I spoke to Patch Adams and hope to get a press statement of
support when the time is right. He sounded really tired for the time of
morning he called. I spoke to him again yesterday for nearly twenty
minutes.
He is overwhelmed with what he has taken on and I felt really honored for
the time and attention he gave this. Please visit his site at <A
HREF="www.patchadams.org">www.patchadams.org</A>
The clowns participating in this program are from the Chaplaincy
Institute. They had a major feature story in the San Francisco Chronicle
recently with their founder Rev. Ginna Rose Halpern whom happens to be a
friend of Patch.
National Public Radio, KPFA radio, and the Chronicle have already
contacted me for a story and we haven't even issued a press release. I also
have a good contact with CNN.
I am also working with Marianne Williamson and Neale Donald Walsch's
newest project. If you haven't heard of them, they cofounded the
Renaissance
Alliance to spiritual wake up the political system so that it serves
humanity. I am organizing their citizen circles in the Bay Area. I'm
listed
as a circle leader in the Bay Area. Their new organizer is an old Common
Cause and People for the American Way consultant and I was the Common Cause
Media Coordinator for the state of Pennsylvania. We naturally hit it off so
things are moving along rather quickly. It looks like the butterfly project
and the Earth Proclamation can serve as a model for citizen action around
the
country.
You can visit our website at <A
HREF="renaissancealliance.org">renaissancealli
ance.org</A>
I would welcome any help or advice to make this happen. If you haven't
already volunteered, please contact me and send us a short bio, a picture
and
brochure of you or your group if available, and contact information
including
any website you may have.
If you know of anyone in the healing or performance arts who would be
interested in this, please forward this to them. If you would like to set
up
a similar program in your area or if one already exists, please let us know.
Please send any contributions to the Berkeley address below and make any
checks payable to the Mendocino Coast Environmental Center/Butterfly Fund.
The Management Center in San Francisco has offered to do a business plan and
write grant proposals for this project so we need to raise $2000 for that to
happen. If you can help us to raise the money or organize a fundraiser,
please give me a call.
May Peace Prevail on Earth!
Alan Moore / Member of the Peace and Justice Commission/City of Berkeley
Project Chrysalis Coordinator
Butterfly Gardeners Association/Mendocino Coast Environmental Center
Global Renaissance Alliance of the San Francisco Bay Area
1563 Solano Ave. #477
Berkeley, CA 94707
510-528-7730
Email: bflys...@aol.com
<A
HREF="http://www.woodstocknation.org/butterfly.htm">www.woodstocknation.org
/butterfly.htm</A> <A HREF="http://prop1.org/butterfly.htm
">http://prop1.o
rg/butterfly.htm</A>
<A HREF="www.renaissancealliance.org">www.renaissancealliance.org</A>
Global Renaissance Alliance
<A HREF="http://www.treeisland.com/ ">www.treeisland.com/</A>
Tree Island & Millennium Meal Project
<A HREF="http://www.earthsite.org">www.earthsite.org</A>
John McConnell, father of Earth Day
<A HREF="http://www.motley-focus.com/~timber/essence.html ">Of Butterflies
and Essence</A> Jean Houston's A Mythic Life
<A
HREF="http://www.cybernaute.com/earthconcert2000">www.cybernaute.com/earthc
oncert2000</A> The Millennium Gathering
Project Chrysalis
Carol Greenwood[Unable to display image]
Her delightful and interactive puppet variety shows include comedy, music,
magic, storytelling and audience participation appropriate for all
occasions.
Small to large audiences ages 2 to 102 enjoy Miss Carol's Musical and
Magical
Puppetime and special holiday shows at home, parties, preschools, elementary
schools, libraries, parks, malls, festivals, fairs, recreation, civic and
community centers, corporate events, special events, senior centers and
more.
Additional activities are available by request and can be included to
enhance
the special occasion or event, such as arts and crafts, puppet making, face
painting, sing-along with instruments, musical theater games and custom
special requests for holidays, birthdays and any other unique event.
For scheduling contact Miss Carol and tell her the butterflies sent you.
Please call her at (650) 737-1286.
<A HREF="http://www.magicalpuppetime.com/index.html">Visit Miss Carols
Website
</A> http://www.magicalpuppetime.com
Here's a story by one of our board members and she also can be booked for
your event. She plays a butterfly harp and much more.
Kelley Lewis, Butterfly Woman
[Unable to display image]
<A
HREF="http://www.butterflymountain.com/Butterfly/butterfly.html">http://www
.butterflymountain.com/Butterfly/butterfly.html</A>
Kelley is a transformational performance artist, harpist, storyteller and
guided healer.ÝÝ
After an eight year journey into the self, Butterfly Woman shares her deep
connection to nature, and the greater universe.Ý A messenger for the
Butterfly People and the Great Mother, her stories are both profound and
inspirational. She has been awakening people to a greater power within
themselves for the past seven years throughout the San Francisco Bay Area.
Kelley weaves a tale of how we, like the butterfly are capable of emerging
out of our chrysali and becoming more caring, loving, and healthy beings.
She is a board member of the Butterfly Gardeners Association.
Email: mera...@ix.netcom.comÝÝ TEL:Ý 408-446-4749ÝÝÝ FAX: 408-446-4877
Next Stage
Ý
A Theater Company, A School, and A Consortium of Artists that use Theater as
a Tool to Explore and Develop Human Potential
The Next Stage creates a place where anyone can overcome self-consciousness
or shyness, starting with children's games and ice breakers that invite us
to
reconnect with the spirit of the child.
We are; artists - writers, musicians singers, educators, students, mental
health professionals, and business people
Our training programs are designed for: Beginning Actors, Theater Artists,
Mental Health Professionals, Educators, Business/Sales People, Corporations,
and HUMAN BEINGS...
The Next Stage offers a safe, supportive environment to bring out the genius
in everyone. We give directors tools to help understand what the actors'
process is, and how to elicit believable emotions.
Marcia Kimmell; Artistic Director
[Unable to display image] [Unable to display image]
<A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/Thnxtstage/marcia.html">http://members.aol.com
/Thnxtstage/marcia.html</A>
Marcia Kimmell, Artistic Director of The Next Stage, is a professional
actress, director, teacher and private coach with 41 years of experience in
theater of all styles and genres, as well as film and video.
Her acting and directing have won critical acclaim in Chicago, San Francisco
and Off Broadway New York.
She has taught and directed for the American Conservatory Theatre's
Professional Actor Training Program, School of the Arts (SFUSD), the first
Drama Therapy Program on the West Coast (now at CIIS), and the SF Art
Commission's CETA/Arts program.
Her acting and directing have won critical acclaim in Chicago, San Francisco
and New York. She has taught and directed for the American Conservatory
Theater, S.F., Advanced Actor Training Program; School of the Arts, S.F.
Unified School District; Antioch University's Drama Therapy Master's
Program;
and the San Francisco Art Commission's CETA/Arts Program, which became a
national model.
Her roles as an actor include Lady Macbeth, Winnie in Samuel Beckett's Happy
Days, and Beatrice in The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds.
She was co-creator of Leftovers, the Ups and Downs of a Compulsive Eater,
which ran successfully for five years, and was produced off-Broadway in New
York.
Her innovative approach to theater is a synthesis of her training at the
American Conservatory Theater; her study of Stanislovski's System of
Psycho-physical Actions, with Philip Bennett; psychodrama with Dr. Richard
Korn and Shirley Gomer; and improvisational theater with Viola Spolin,
originator of Theater Games, at the Second City in Chicago. Ms. Kimmell
founded The Next Stage in 1979.
She teaches and/or has taught a variety of classes, including Basics of
Improvisation, Scene Improvisation, Experimental Theater / Transformations,
Performance of Ensemble Improvisation, Scripted Monologue and Scene Study, &
Master Class for Teachers & Acting Coaches.
She has done extensive private coaching in the areas of Audition
Preparation,
Cold Readings, and Creation of Original Theater Pieces.
Her Seminars have included such topics as: Improvisational Fairy Tales &
Personal Myth, Letting Go of the Judge, The Creative Classroom for
Educators,
Therapeutic Applications of Theater, Presentation Skills, Corporate Creative
Problem Solving & Team Work, and ARt of Relating for Men & Women.
Events facilitated have included, among others, Game Jam, a Theater Games
Social, and Demonstration Performances.
"Theater Games are a process applicable to any field discipline or subject
matter where full participation, communication, transformation can take
place." - Viola Spolin
Groovy Judy
[Unable to display image]
<A HREF="http://www.wenet.net/~heyjudy/">http://www.wenet.net/~heyjudy/</A>
Groovy Judy is a gifted and talented singer-songwriter who loves to play her
guitar, sing, laugh, and share her love of music and spirit with her
audience.
Judy has been playing guitar for more than 20 years and in various rock
bands
since 1989. Her first group was an all-female rock band called "The Tourists
in Distress," which formed the day after the quake of '89 in San Francisco.
After graduating from San Francisco State in 1992 with a Bachelors degree in
Broadcast Communications, her next group, "Psycho Betty" released a
full-length CD and had two of their songs placed on the weekly television
show "Nash Bridges." Judy went on to form an improvisational band called
"Psychotic Melodic," who combined music, comedy and theatre. She also
started
a business called "Hey Judy Productions," to represent her musical projects
and produce events. In 1996 Hey Judy Productions produced a benefit for the
Leukemia Society featuring the legendary rock band, "Big Brother and the
Holding Company," and raised over $2,000 for the non-profit agency. In the
Spring of 1997 she produced another benefit for "Food Not Bombs," an
organization that feeds the needy and works to defeat social injustices. In
1998 she moved to San Francisco and joined the Unity Church of San
Francisco,
where she began working on her spiritual growth and development. She's
performing solo and with her band at churches, cafes and clubs, and recently
produced two benefits for the American Red Cross to raise money for Kosovo
relief. Her debut CD "Groovy Judy" is scheduled for release in August.
What others are saying about Judy and her music:
"When Judy comes to our church we know were in for a light-hearted breath of
fresh air. She'll tickle your funny bone and fill you with light and love in
your heart." Reverend Penny Martens, Tri-Valley Unity
"I just heard your song Forgive and I love your song and your whole persona.
Alleluia, Alleluia, I love you!"
Desiree
"Judy came to our Church on a cold, dreary, Sunday morning when people
seemed
depressed and low energy, and within minutes had the whole congregation
clapping, singing and vibrant!"
Reverend David Borglum, Home of Truth Spiritual Center
"Judy's love and generous spirit shines through her music!"
Cinder Ernst, Unity of San Francisco
Judy Hoffman is a true entertainer and people often remember her name, her
colorful hats, and most importantly, her loving spirit.
To book Groovy Judy contact Hey Judy Productions at
(415) 995-4709 or via email at hey...@wenet.net
Latifa
[Unable to display image]
<A
HREF="http://www.gildedserpent.com/aboutuspages/latifa.htm">http://www.gild
edserpent.com/aboutuspages/latifa.htm</A>
lati...@hotmail.com
Latifa began performing and teaching Middle Eastern Dance in the mid- 1970ís
in Europe and San Francisco.Ý In Spain she formed a dance troupe, while
working in nightclubs and restaurants in Southern Spain, Ibiza and the
Canary
Islands. She also did some work in commercials forÝ British television.
Upon returning to San Francisco, she danced in several clubsÝincluding the
Bagdad, The Greek Taverna,Ý and The Mykonos where she also booked the bands
and hired other dancers.
In 1991, after taking several years away from dance to pursue a graduate
degree at U.C. Berkeley, sheÝ began performing regularlyÝ at the Cairo Cafe
in Mill Valley. At this time, she also began teaching danceÝ again in
Sausalito.
From this group of students the Dancers of DeNile was formed.
Although not currently working with the Dancers of DeNile,Latifa has done
several solo performances this year. She plans to resume teaching within the
next few months.
Rev. Gina Rose Halpern
[Unable to display image]
<A HREF="www.chaplaincyinstitute.org ">www.chaplaincyinstitute.org</A>
Rev. Gina Rose Halpern, BFA, MA, Interfaith Minister Peace Chaplain,
Director
of Healing
(510) 869-5134 gina...@dnai.com
Through Arts. Since 1983 Gina Rose has been the Executive Director of
Healing
Through Arts, a nonprofit organization created to build bridges between the
Creative Arts and The Healing Arts. She has been an administrator for the
Antioch College Buddhist Studies Program in India. She has been on the board
of the Society for Arts in Healthcare and has designed healthcare
facilities,
including work for The children's Hospital of San Diego. In 1995 She toured
Russian pediatric hospitals as a clown with Patch Adams M.D. & the
Gesundheight Institute. Her ministry is based in the arts, with a focus on
children. She performs with the trio Real*Magic, & is the author and
illustrator of the bi-lingual children"s book "Where Is Tibet?"Ý She is on
the Faculty of John F Kennedy University, and Matthew Fox's University of
Creation Spirituality.
Clown Chaplaincy can be a specialization in any of the Chaplaincy programs.
The focus on humor and healing, and the compassionate care of clowns has a
special role in the practice of chaplaincy in any setting from hospice to
pediatrics. Classes in Clown Chaplaincy are taught by the editor of The
Hospital Clown Newsletter "Shobi Dobi" and Gina Rose Halpern. Shobi has
studied with the Big Apple Circus Clown Care Program, and both Shobi and
Gina
Rose have worked with Patch Adams M.D of The Gesundheit Institute.
See the featured March 28, 1999 San Francisco Chronicle Sunday article on
Clown Chaplaincy at Mt. Diablo Hospital:
Mission
Our intention and mission is to fully prepare individuals for a new
paradigm
of creative interfaith chaplaincy and healing ministry, for work in schools,
healthcare facilities and residential treatment centers, hospices,
communities, as well as prisons and other correctional facilities.
Our Goal is to create a living vocation that unites the Arts and Interfaith
Ministry to serve the world with, compassion, creativity, and joy and
healing.
We focus on the use of the Arts and Dreamwork as a prime method of
Spiritual
Direction and Pastoral Care because all peoples of all ages in all cultures
create and dream, and because these processes are natural windows to the
soul.
The Institute is inspired by Matthew Fox's book "The Reinvention of Work."
We
look at this program as a reinvention of chaplaincy and ministry from a
perspective of inclusivity and creativity. Our hope is that we can serve the
communities we live in with a training and ordaining program which will help
unite what we love with what we do in the world, to both support ourselves
financially, and serve the world we live in with joy, beauty, and
compassion.
Introduction
Our new Fourteen Month Core Chaplaincy & Interfaith Ministry Program begins
in September along with our semester programs . These programs provide
courses at the equivalency level of a Masters of Divinity Degree . Students
completing ChI trainings will be eligible for ordination as Interfaith
Ministers and commissioned as Chaplains of the Arts. We hope these classes
and programs call to your soul and that you will join us in this pilgrimage
of creative chaplaincy and ministry.
Sophia Roberts
[Unable to display image]
<A HREF="songh...@earthlink.net ">songh...@earthlink.net</A>
songh...@earthlink.net
Since 1978, Sophia has produced nine luscious, inspiring recordings for
healing, meditation, massage, love/tantric ecstacy, life transitions and
rituals. Her latest, Return, invokes the Goddess in her many glorious forms.
This powerful and hauntingly beautiful extended musical journey features
exquisite arrangements virtuoso accompanists and guest soloists. creating a
deep and sacred tapestry of sound on which Sophia's golden voice soars and
seduces. A "cult" favorite among healers, massage therapists, tantric yogis
and other loyal listeners these many years, Sophia has now ventured into
cyberspace to reach out to YOU!
"Sophia sings songs of the Earth and of the Sky and, in between, a new
humanity is born."Dr. Jean Houston The Possible Human
"Sophia is an angel of Spirit. Her music is sacred, joyful and deeply
inspiring."Dr. Joan Boryshenko The Ways of the Mystic
"When I first heard that amazing, heavenly voice swirl out from the stereo
speakers into the corners of my soul, I instantly recognized an intense
passion in the voice flowing from our sound system. After the CD finished I
thought, "Wow! This woman's otherworldly quality literally shifts
dimensional
realms. I must find out more about her.... Keep a close eye on her work as
I'm convinced her potent, angelic voice is to play a deep and vital role in
the return of the Feminine Power to Earth in the immediate future."Richard
Giles Nexus Magazine, Australia
"I listen to Sophia's music often because it brings comfort and joy to my
heart. Her music heals as it frees body and soul into harmony and beauty."
John Robbins, author, activist Diet for a New America Reclaiming our
Health
Personal Greetings from Sophia....
ÝÝÝÝÝHello and many blessings to you! Thanks so much for your interest in my
music. For those of you who want to know more about my life and work, I
offer
a bit of history. I began singing as soon as I could speak, maybe before. My
father loved opera and I remember singing along with arias from Carmen at a
very early age. When I decided to begin performing, however, I chose folk
music as more relevant and accessible and started on the guitar with the
music of Joan Baez, Bob Dylan and Judy Collins. In 1962, during the first
March on Washington for Civil Rights, Dr. Martin Luther King spoke to a
quarter of a million people and songs were sung to inspire and unite. I saw
what the power of the voice could do and vowed then to use my talents to
empower people for positive change. That is my vow to this day.
ÝÝÝÝÝI believe my voice and my music are gifts from God/dess. For those of
you who may be open to the concept of reincarnation, I'll share this story.
Several years ago, during the course of a spiritual intensive, I had a
strong
and vivid memory of my most recent past life. I was a 5 year old girl who
died in a concentration camp. This recollection was devastating in all its
painful, horrifying detail. I continued to work through this experience and
I
found myself up in what seemed to be the throne room of the Divine Mother,
with all the children who had died such horrible deaths. It was a
celebration. We had come through! We learned that we had chosen this
sacrifice, to develop compassion and, in many cases, the determination that
this would never happen again. Jesus was there and the angels were singing.
I
was told that this was the music which must come back to Earth, and then -
bang- I was born, in 1946. From the beginning I was stubborn and independent
and filled with a sense of mission - to keep that kind of cruelty and
devastation from happening again if I possibly could - to Save the World!
ÝÝÝÝÝRaised by Jewish-Agnostic parents in Philadelphia, I finally contacted
my own spiritual nature during the psychedelic revolution of the 60s. I
lived
and worked in a large commune in the Haight-Ashbury, The One World Family,
which operated two vegetarian restaurants, put out a newspaper, raised
children, baked many loaves of bread a day, and traveled to put on shows in
our painted up school bus. It was there that I first began writing my own
songs, about our shared vision that a New World was upon us and it would
grow
out of our recognition that we were all One. The image I have of that time
is
that of a giant seed pod that, exposed to intense light and heat, exploded,
sending tiny seeds out all over the world. Those seeds began to sprout, and
have now produced flowers and ripening fruit of consciousness and caring for
the Earth and all life upon Her.
ÝÝÝÝÝMy musical interests have been eclectic, ranging from East Indian to
Native American. I like to combine chants from different cultures, to bridge
between worlds. My instrument is my voice, but I have picked up several
instruments - guitar, zither (or angel harp), dulcimer, tamboura, thunder
drum, rainstick. Rather than an entertainer, I consider myself a facilitator
through music and song to create unity, inspiration and song circles for
mutual healing and upliftment. I am available for gatherings of loving
souls.
Find me at <A HREF="songh...@earthlink.net ">songh...@earthlink.net</A>
Michael Wise
> nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) writes:
>
> | In article <XDHV3.250$LK3....@nuq-read.news.verio.net>, David Kaye
> | <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>
> | > The concern is whether SF will be a city for the neighborhood residents or
> | > if it will continue as a city of chain stores, high-priced hotels, and the
> | > total domination of the city by big corporations. Tom Ammiano is our only
> | > choice if we're going to keep SF for its residents and make City Hall
> | > listen to the neighborhoods.
>
> | For all its residents...as long as you're not a white heterosexual male or
> | a Catholic...granted, we may only be about 15-20% of the City's
> | population...but Tom doesn't seem to give a damn about us...or about
> | anything or anybody in the western parts of the City. If it isn't wrapped
> | in some sort of gay or "people-of-color" rights agenda (United Airlines,
> | et al) or it isn't aimed at offending the Catholic church and all its
> | members (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence), then Tom just doesn't care. He
> | continues to inflame and alienate groups who don't share his views.
>
> | At least Willie has some semblence of being able to listen to all sites.
> | He certainly has a lot of faults, so I will hold my nose as I pick the
> | lesser of two evils.
>
>
> | Tom has no chance of carrying anymore than the approx 40% he got in the
> | primary (almost all concentrated in a narrow geographic area). He's burnt
> | too many bridges with the moderate and conservative electorate to come
> | sucking up to us now.
>
>
> The fact that GAY Jack Davis, whom Clint
> took under his wing at a time when gays were being discriminated
> against, jumped ship when Clint wanted to re-represent honest
> Mayor Frank Jordan for a 2nd term, was the source of all these
> slanders makes me wonder about the integrity of the Brown
> campaign. They don't care who they hire or what they say, so
> long as they win.
No argument there. Brown is a professional politician. He cares more about
having a position of power than the people he serves. He was a bad choice
the first time he was elected and he is just as bad now. However, at least
he has good political skills and at least he makes attempts to hear voices
from all constituencies. When was the last time Supervisor Ammiano ever
set foor in The Sunset? Uh...never? When was the last time Ammiano ever
did anything for the west side? For moderate or convervative voters?
Uh...never?
> Now I'm working for Ammiano. So are a lot of
> former Reilly campaign workers. Ammiano has more Christian
> compassion in his little finger than Willie Brown has had in his
> whole lifetime. You can't beat the Irish (and Father Boyle) and
> the whole bunch of good, decent second and third generation San
> Franciscans who worked on the Reilly campaign for wanting what's
> best for San Francisco.
Well this 4th generation San Franciscan ain't voting for him. Willie isn't
great for SF...but he's a lot better for ALL constiuencies than Ammiano
would be, IMHO.
>
> Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
> just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
Some might say that David Duke's support for the KKK is also just
symbolism as well. The point is Ammiano went out of his way to make sure
that these "sisters" who openly mock the church got a chance to do their
thing on one of the church's holiest days. It showed complete intolerance
and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
What would you say is he forced approval to shut down Market street so a
group of white guys could parade in black-face and beaded cornrows while
eating watermelon and fried chicken chanting in stereotypical black slang
on Martin Luther King Day? Oh, I know...it's ok to insult one group....a
group whose culture plays such a heavy part in this city's history...but
not another.
> Christianity is not diametrically opposed to the gay rights
> movement. Christianity stands for the underdog. It opposes all
> expressions of ego. Ammiano did not mean to be a dismissive of
> Christianity when he took his stand in support of his gay
> sisters.
Not Christianity...just Catholicism. Not that I'm saying that religion
should be a factor in any poltical race. I'm about as liberal a Catholic
as they come...and even I was very insulted by Ammiano's insistence that
these "sisters" be allowed to mock the church one of the church's holiest
days...and insist that a main public street be closed to do it. He made
his choice, and it's going to cost him the majority of the Catholic
vote....a sizable body which shows up at the polls.
--Mike
Silas Warner
>
> I may still vote for the guy, but his bypassing the
> debates that all the other candidates submitted themselves
> to says something to me.
>
Uhh, did you actually hear these "debates?"
If there was any substantive debate in that orgy of
booing and namecalling, I certainly didn't hear it
and neither did the SF Chronic.
Silas Warner
Jym Dyer
> outside of his constituency.
=o= I keep reading hints about "Tom's constituency," but none of
you hinters are being very specific. Tom won votes from all
over the city during his last run for Supervisor -- more votes
than any of the others, in fact, which is why he's President of
the Board of Supervisors.
=o= There was a map in either the _Chroniner_ or the _Examicle_
showing a stronghold of support for Tom in the middle of the
city, but I know of no cohesive constituency linking the area
described. The map was pretty simplistic, too, giving no
indication of Tom's strong showing in the rest of the city.
=o= If you want to know where he stands, what he'll do, etc.,
take a peek at the website:
=o= Also, are you asking the same pointed questions about Willie
Brown? If not, why not? There's a guy who definitely has a
limited and cohesive constituency: corporate lobbyists.
=o= I guess to be fair, I ought to mention his website, too:
<_Jym_>
John Whiteside
> Oh, thank you, David Kaye! Thank you for crossposting
> to ba.general!!!
Well, it is nice to know that dc.general isn't the only *.general
newsgroup that's utterly silly.
But it can stop now.
I'm assuming that David thinks those of us who don't live in San
Francisco, but are gay, are supposed to care about this?
John Whiteside
> Actually I've often found quite a number of the doctrines of catholicism
> to be quite humanistic.
It also helps to distinguish between Catholocism, The Church and
Catholocism, The Political Action Committee (which is pretty much the
dominant member of the pair).
Jym Dyer
> Street and points south. If this city needs anything, it's
> attention on areas where the infrastructure sucks, and the
> neighborhoods are isolated from the rest of the city.
=o= Perhaps you're unaware of this, but a streetcar line out to
3rd Street was approved by voters a decade ago (1989's Prop B,
if memory serves -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong). It's
been in the works through three sets of mayors.
=o= I suppose Brown ought to get some credit for being the one
in office when some activity sort of appears to maybe start to
be happening. Unfortunately, Brown's input seems to be mostly
to make sure that his buddies get tons of money to build this
line in the most expensive manner possible.
=o= Oh, and did I mention that this very same measure also
approved building a streetcar line down Geary? If you're
wondering what Brown's been doing for your west side of the
city, there's your answer: wasting so much money on the 3rd
Street project that there'll be none left for the Geary line.
<_Jym_>
geoff
: you hinters are being very specific. Tom won votes from all
: over the city during his last run for Supervisor -- more votes
: than any of the others, in fact, which is why he's President of
: the Board of Supervisors.
I think it's pretty obvious... Tom has directed his energies
torwards the folks living in the Castro/Noe and points where
the political atmosphere is somewhat similar. I have no
problem with that. It's just that I've heard zero talk about
issues out on the West Side of town, where I live. Things
like Golden Gate Park, the proposed garage, MUNI in our
particular neighborhood and so on.
: =o= There was a map in either the _Chroniner_ or the _Examicle_
: showing a stronghold of support for Tom in the middle of the
: city, but I know of no cohesive constituency linking the area
: described. The map was pretty simplistic, too, giving no
: indication of Tom's strong showing in the rest of the city.
Well.. if that doesn't define a constituency, I don't what
does. Neighborhoods tend to have a character to themsevles,
and people in neighborhoods tend to have the same priorities.
I have no problem with that, but I don't want other areas of the
city neglected... that's what gets metro areas into trouble.
: =o= If you want to know where he stands, what he'll do, etc.,
: take a peek at the website:
: http://www.ammiano4mayor.com/
So... I did go and look. I looked at his past legislative record,
and with one exception, I fully support everything he has done.
Again, there is still next to nothing about what Tom has in mind
for the next four years. The thing that really gets me is:
Tom's stance on MUNI: he's been riding for MUNI for years
and knows how people are impacted. Great! But... but... there's
still nothing new there. I know how I feel too! I have ideas, and
I tell them to people who ask.
: =o= Also, are you asking the same pointed questions about Willie
: Brown? If not, why not? There's a guy who definitely has a
Uh.. yes... I do actually.
: limited and cohesive constituency: corporate lobbyists.
I certainly won't deny that. I will say though, that Brown
has addressed underdevelopment in areas like Third Street
and points south. If this city needs anything, it's attention
on areas where the infrastructure sucks, and the neighborhoods
are isolated from the rest of the city. At least Brown addresses
these issues with MUNI lightrail and economic incentives in
the Third Street and nearby neighborhoods. It may be too little,
too late... but I see nothing else on the table.
Just to undermine myself, Brown doesn't seem to address
the West Side much either, but I'm glad that the underdeveloped
neighborhoods are getting some attention. The central part
of the city has it pretty good, in comparison.
-geoff
: =o= I guess to be fair, I ought to mention his website, too:
: <_Jym_>
--
Gary G. Taylor
>=o= Oh, and did I mention that this very same measure also
>approved building a streetcar line down Geary? If you're
>wondering what Brown's been doing for your west side of the
>city, there's your answer: wasting so much money on the 3rd
>Street project that there'll be none left for the Geary line.
Interesting that they want to replace the old B line, which was
torn out in the 1960s. Does the old car barn still stand at the
top of the hill, across the street from the Alexandria theater
(if IT is still there)?
Gary G. Taylor 29 Palms, CA
Reply to gary > donavan * org
http://www.donavan.org
Freedom is the best revenge.
Michael Thomas
> > Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
> > just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
>
> Some might say that David Duke's support for the KKK is also just
> symbolism as well. The point is Ammiano went out of his way to make sure
> that these "sisters" who openly mock the church got a chance to do their
> thing on one of the church's holiest days. It showed complete intolerance
> and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
You and your fucking papist cronies can all get
raped and die. I'm sick and tired of listening
to the bleating whines of the poor downtrodden
papists who think that it's A-OK for the papist
in chief to say that faggots are suffering from
an "objective disorder" and do everything
possible to keep the boot in the face of faggots
everywhere ("Yes on Knight," anyone?), but draw
the line at a street theater group who raise
money for AIDS charities. Like there is *any*
fucking comparison.
If the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence offend
*you* and the pea brained bigots like *you*,
they are doing exactly what they should be
doing. In this case, they managed to identify
you instantaneously as complete unthinking
"I've got mine, Jack" asshole.
I think that Ammiano would be an unqualified
disaster for SF, but if he does nothing else but
cause a few more beet faced papists to blow a
blood vessel over the Sisters, then it won't be
a complete disaster.
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
"I dunno, that's an awful lot of money."
Beavis
Michael Wise
<mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh? Your little
screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
It's funny how people who whine the most about other throwing stereotypes
and generalizations on their group based on the actions of a few are the
the first and loudest people to do the very same to other groups.
If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on Gay
Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade people managed to and then marched
back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays and
wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to spread
like wildfire" and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen to
make to homeless shelters...would you also give them that act the same
erroneous title of "street theater"?
Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
tolerance. Your actions and language clearly indictate that you are a
perfect fit to move back to the California home of intolerance -- Orange
Co.
David Kaye
" Interesting that they want to replace the old B line, which was
" torn out in the 1960s. Does the old car barn still stand at the
" top of the hill, across the street from the Alexandria theater
Yes. It was a car dealer for many years. I forget what it is now. I
don't remember it being across from the Alexandria, though. I do remember
it being right on the 33 line which would probably be Arguello or so.
--
(C) 1999 DEADLINE FOR VOTER REGISTRATION for the SF Runoff
David Kaye is November 15. http://www.ammiano4mayor.com
dk at wco.com
Michael Thomas
> In article <v7emdwe...@fasolt.mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas
> <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > I think that Ammiano would be an unqualified
> > disaster for SF, but if he does nothing else but
> > cause a few more beet faced papists to blow a
> > blood vessel over the Sisters, then it won't be
> > a complete disaster.
>
> Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade people managed to and then marched
> back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays and
> wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to spread
> like wildfire" and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen to
> make to homeless shelters...would you also give them that act the same
> erroneous title of "street theater"?
Yeah, that's *just* like what the Sisters do.
Why do I expect to here about str8 pride parades
any second now.
> Tolerance goes both ways.
Let me guess: your tolerance isn't unconditional and
you're about to take your marbles and go home. Maybe
you can find a baseball bat while you're at it.
> This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> tolerance. Your actions and language clearly indictate that you are a
> perfect fit to move back to the California home of intolerance -- Orange
> Co.
Look str8asshole, you're the one who can't tell
the difference between a bunch of street clowns
in a small and insignificant town, and a world
wide organization who explicitly and with much
vim and vigor seeks to deny gay people rights,
as well as using dehumanizing rhetoric that gives
Young Christian Soldiers carte blanche to rid the
world of the homosexual scourge.
A get a fucking grip, str8asshole. Get some
perspective, str8asshole.
Michael Thomas
> Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> tolerance. Your actions and language clearly indictate that you are a
> perfect fit to move back to the California home of intolerance -- Orange
> Co.
PS: whenever I feel the need to see what OC
was like, all I need to do is drive over Twin
Peaks, and there you all are.
Gordito
<nospam-1111...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
[....]
> Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> tolerance.
Surely you're not equating the catholic church, which is on record
about their instructions to their members and churches to exclude gay
people and work against their inclusion in secular society, and the
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, a small group that wears tarted-up
nun costumes and works to raise money for charities?
The catholic church - a huge, wealthy multinational with enormous
power and influence - and its members want to be free of any and
all criticism, down to disallowing public displays by individuals
exploring and commenting on their own experience with the church
and catholicism, and they do it by claiming victim status and
shouting "intolerance!". It makes me ill.
frank w elliott jr
: Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
: news:nospam-0811...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net...
:
: [..]
:
: : members (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence), then Tom just doesn't care. He
: Threre can be no limit to opposing the evil of Catholicism.
:
How very Catholic of you! On a recent trip to San Francisco,
Cardinal Ratzinger said that nothing but evil could come from
homosexuality. You two seem to think in ruthlessly absolute
terms. Maybe Ratzo could find a job for you in his outfit the
Roman Inquisition (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith).
Or maybe you just had a bad day.
Frank
: --
:
: e pluribus unum
:
:
:
frank w elliott jr
: If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on Gay
: Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade people managed to and then marched
: back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays and
: wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to spread
: like wildfire" and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen to
: make to homeless shelters...would you also give them that act the same
: erroneous title of "street theater"?
Much nastier counter demonstrations are almost always present at gay
pride parades. Christian Rev. Fred Phelps leads counter demonstrations
at many such events. His people carry signs with slogans like "Only two
gay rights: AIDS and Hell." You may have read of his website
(www.godhatesfags.com).
The organizers of gay pride parades don't try to have him banned
:
:
: Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
: tolerance.
The SPI incident occurred during the visit of the rabidly anti-gay
Cardinal Ratzinger, the head of the Roman Inquisition. He used that
visit to San Francisco, the only official city of refuge for gay people,
to defame them.
For more on the record of Cardinal Ratzinger and John Paul II, I suggest
you read the following:
Below is a letter written in July 1992 with the authority and
approval of Pope John Paul II by the CDF and Cardinal Ratzinger. The
intended audience of the letter was the National Conference of Catholic
Bishops of the United States. It was leaked to the US press in 1992
by New Ways Ministries. News of this letter was carried by newspapers
in most major American cities and on network television affiliates.
This letter was referenced just this past year in the CDF's revisions
to the "Always Our Children" letter published by the NCCB.
The letter begins as an apparent defense of the civil rights
of gay and lesbian people, but asserts that these rights are not
absolute. From this point, the letter becomes a position paper
for the justification of discrimination against gay and lesbian
people.
Point 12 does justify discrimination against gay people for
"objectively disordered external conduct," whatever than means.
It goes on to medicalize the undefined phrase "objective disorder,"
saying that abridging the rights of sick people is sometimes legitimate.
Indeed, the CDF is not a medical authority and is trying to substitute
scientistic rhetoric for legitimate moral arguments.
The phrase "objectively disordered external conduct" is left undefined
until point 14. Nevertheless, point 14 makes it clear that saying
"I'm gay" is sufficient conduct to justify discrimination according
to the CDF. In the eyes of the CDF, this honesty is "objectively
disordered conduct" which ought to lead to discrimination in
employment, housing, adoption, military service, etc.
WRT gay-bashing, the CDF deplores violence against anyone. Yet,
the CDF asserts that gay people as a group bring such violence on
themselves:
...neither the Church nor society at large should be
surprised when other distorted notions and practices
gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions
increase... (point 7)
Most victims of gay bashing do nothing to bring this violence on themselves.
Many are not even gay but are merely perceived as gay. Others are often
attacked while walking alone in a gay neighborhood. Usually, there is no
external cause in gay bashing. There is typically no real evidence of
identity, much less of activity. Since the CDF states that the
mere acknowledgement of being gay is evidence of "distorted notions"
if not "practices," then the CDF is ultimately blaming gay bashing
on the acknowledgement of homosexuality in the society at large.
Nevertheless, there are those who may agree with the CDF about
the notion that sexual orientation is not an aspect of identity
because it is not inherited. Well, one must then acknowledge the
fact that religion, a chosen status, is the most protected status
under US law. Indeed, this protection has been essential to the
success of Catholics in the US, given their persecution in the
past. Certainly, who one loves is as much a part of identity
as the particulars of one's faith.
Finally, gay and lesbian people, regardless of the
way that they live their lives are led to the conclusion
that while not _sinful_ in the eyes of the Church, their
status is a _crime_ in the eyes of the Church. While the
Church fairly and accurately portrays itself as liberating
much of the world from the tyrannies and duplicities of
Communism, the Church has indulged in the most fundamental
tyranny, the criminalization of identity.
================================================================================
Some Considerations Concerning the Catholic Response
to Legislative Proposals on the
Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons
Foreword
Recently, legislation had been proposed in some American
states which would make discrimination on the basis of sexual
orientation illegal. In some Italian cities, municipal
authorities have made public housing available to homosexual (and
unmarried heterosexual) couples. Such initiatives, even where
they seem more directed toward support of basic civil rights than
condonement of homosexual activity or a homosexual lifestyle, may
in fact have a negative impact on the family and society. Such
things as the adoption of children, the hiring and firing of
teachers, the housing needs of genuine families, landlords'
legitimate concerns in screening potential tenants, for example,
are often implicated.
While it would be impossible to foresee and respond to every
eventuality in respect to legislative proposals in this area,
these observations will try to identify some principles and
distinctions of a general nature which should be taken into
consideration by the conscientious Catholic legislator, voter, or
Church authority who is confronted with such issues.
The first section will recall relevant passages from the
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's ``Letter to the
Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual
Person'' of 1986. The second section will deal with the
applications.
I. Relevant Passages from the CDF's ``Letter''
1. The Letter recalls that the CDF's ``Declaration on Certain
Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics'' of 1975 ``took note of the
distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or
tendency and individual homosexual actions,'' the latter which
are ``intrinsically disordered'' and ``in no case to be approved
of'' (no. 3).
2. Since ``[i]n the discussion which followed the publication of
the (above-mentioned) Declaration ..., an overly benign
interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some
going so far as to call it neutral, or even good,'' the Letter
goes on to clarify: ``Although the particular inclination of the
homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong
tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the
inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.
Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be
directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led
to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual
activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not'' (no. 3).
3. ``As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents
one's own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the
creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous
opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather
defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and
authentically understood'' (no. 7).
4. In reference to the homosexual movement, the Letter states:
``One tactic used is to protest that any and all criticism of or
reservations about homosexual people, their activity and
lifestyle, are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination''
(no. 9).
5. ``There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the
Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her
pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws. This is
done in order to conform to these pressure groups' concept that
homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an
entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality
may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number
of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider
the magnitude of the risks involved'' (no. 9).
6. ``She (the Church) is also aware that the view that
homosexual activity is equivalent to, or as acceptable as, the
sexual expression of conjugal love has a direct impact on
society's understanding of the nature and rights of the family
and puts them in jeopardy'' (no. 9).
7. ``It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are
the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such
treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors
wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others
which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy
society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be
respected in word, in action and in law.
But the proper reaction to crimes committed against
homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual
condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when
homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil
legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one as
any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large
should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices
gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase''
(no. 10).
8. ``What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and
demeaning assumption that the sexual behavior of homosexual
persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable.
What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which
characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be
recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well''
(no. 11).
9. ``In assessing proposed legislation, the Bishops should keep
as their uppermost concern the responsibility to defend and
promote family life'' (no. 17).
II. Applications
10. ``Sexual orientation'' does not constitute a quality
comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-
discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an
objective disorder (cf. ``Letter,'' no. 3).
11. There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to
take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the
consignment of children to adoption or foster care, in employment
of teachers or coaches, and in military recruitment.
12. Homosexual persons, as human persons, have the same rights
as all persons including that of not being treated in a manner
which offends their personal dignity (cf. no. 10). Among other
rights, all persons have the right to work, to housing, etc.
Nevertheless, these rights are not absolute. They can be
legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct.
This is sometimes not only licit but obligatory. This would
obtain moreover not only in the case of culpable behavior but
even in the case of actions of the physically or mentally ill.
Thus it is accepted that the state may restrict the exercise of
rights, for example, in the case of contagious or mentally ill
persons, in order to protect the common good.
13. Including ``homosexual orientation'' among the
considerations on the basis of which it is illegal to
discriminate can easily lead to regarding homosexuality as a
positive source of human rights, for example, in respect to so-
called affirmative action, the filling of quotas in hiring
practices. This is all the more mistaken since there is no right
to homosexuality (cf. no. 10) which therefore should not form the
judicial basis for claims. The passage from the recognition of
homosexuality as a factor on which basis it is illegal to
discriminate can easily lead, if not automatically, to the
legislative protection of homosexuality. A person's
homosexuality would be invoked in opposition to alleged
discrimination and thus the exercise of rights would be defended
precisely via the affirmation of the homosexual condition instead
of in terms of a violation of basic human rights.
14. The ``sexual orientation'' of a person is not comparable to
race, sex, age, etc. also for another reason than that given
above which warrants attention. An individual's sexual
orientation is generally not known to others unless he publicly
identifies himself as having this orientation or unless some
overt behavior manifests it. As a rule, the majority of
homosexually oriented persons who seek to lead chaste lives do
not want or see no reason for their sexual orientation to become
public knowledge. Hence the problem of discrimination in terms
of employment, housing, etc. does not arise.
Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be
precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be
``either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing''
(cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from
this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to
``manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned
support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and
laws'' (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that
``any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual
people ... are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination''
(cf. no. 9).
15. Since in assessing proposed legislation uppermost concern
should be given to the responsibility to defend and promote family
life (cf. no. 17), most careful attention should be paid
to the single provisions of proposed measures. How would they
effect [sic] adoption or foster care? Would they protect
homosexual acts, public or private? Do they confer equivalent
family status on homosexual unions, for example, in respect to
public housing or by entitling the homosexual partner to the
privileges of employment which might include ``family''
participation in the health benefits given to employees
(cf. no. 9)?
16. Finally, since a matter of the common good is concerned, it
is inappropriate for Church authorities to endorse or remain
neutral toward adverse legislation even if it grants exceptions
to Church organizations and institutions. The Church has the
responsibility to promote the public morality of the entire civil
society on the basis of fundamental moral values, not simply to
protect herself from the application of harmful laws
(cf. no. 17).
(END OF DOCUMENT)
ace...@my-deja.com
Michael Thomas wrote in message ...
Why don't you take your miserable little life, and your intolerant small,
sick mind and go away. It's fat, doughboy, marshmallow *fruits* like you
that give the decent gays a bad name.
The tone of your posts makes it very clear that you are a frustrated,
miserable little whiner, living a miserable, angry life...Please bore
someone else with your personal problems.
ace...@my-deja.com
Gordito wrote in message
SNIP>
>The catholic church - a huge, wealthy multinational with enormous
>power and influence - and its members want to be free of any and
>all criticism, down to disallowing public displays by individuals
>exploring and commenting on their own experience with the church
>and catholicism, and they do it by claiming victim status and
>shouting "intolerance!". It makes me ill.
Talk to us about Islam and the other religions that would just as soon burn
you at the stake, (AND DO) than look at you before you tell me about the
Catholics!
Gordito
But we weren't talking about Islam.
Hey, a new advertising slogan: "Catholicism - not as oppressive as
Islam!"
jon_w...@my-deja.com
geoff <geo...@armory.com> wrote:
>
>
> : What I like about Tom's strategy is that he was able to bypass the
> : obscene amount of fundraising he would have had to do. Now he can
run a
> : real campaign where his promises will be directed at the people of
San
> : Francisco, not his corporate donors. Can Willie make the same claim?
>
> Hmm.. seems to be he didn't spend more than a couple
> dollars, and look at all the support he got at the
> last minute. I don't see how announcing his run ahead
> of time and actually attending debates (where we got some
> real proposals from the fringe candidates) would have
> somehow caused Tom to whip out the wallet and start spending.
Perhaps, but that's an opinion based on the assumption that running a
write in campaign was actually Tom's strategy all along. My impression
was that he was the most reluctant to run because he didn't want to soil
himself in a traditional $3 million campaign.
>
> In fact, perhaps... I say that Tom (and well.. all the rest
> of the candidates) should start stumping for themselves
> in public. It doesn't cost that much money to drive
> around in a pickup, park for a little bit and start
> talking to the people walking down the street. That would
> be more effective than spending cash on commercials or flyers
> trying to defend themselves from any mudslinging.
There are position papers and a slew of debates down the road. I like
your idea though. I'll pass it on.
> : This is a real grassroots capaign the likes of which hasn't been
seen
> : since the election of Harvey Milk. This is about more than just the
> : personality of the candidate. This is about the grass roots rising
up to
> : propose a very different kind of city that what has been offered by
the
> : other candidates.
>
> You know, after all is said and done, I'm not really sure
> what Tom brings to the table for SF outside of his
> constituency. How is he going to make life better
> for us on the West Side? Where does he sit on the
> de Young museum and Golden Gate Park garage fiasco?
> I know he rides MUNI, but what does he actually propose
> to make it better?
I live on the west side. I'm a homeowner and an employer with two kids
and a dog. I will benefit from better transportation, commercial rent
control, more sunshine, tenent rights and more police accountability.
Most of all, I'll benefit from the shift in power from downtown to the
neighborhoods where actual people live and work. I've had it with
Chevron, Wells Fargo and the Gap deciding city policy. These are the
corporations that have been contributing to Brown's war chest. These are
the folks Brown is beholden to. And they are the same corporations that
are funding attacks that call Tom a "Marxist" and a (god forbid)
"comedian".
I don't know his position on garages and museums but his past behavior
puts him strongly in the transit first camp where I beleive he belongs.
Michael Wise
<mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on Gay
> > Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade people managed to and then marched
> > back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays and
> > wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to spread
> > like wildfire" and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen to
> > make to homeless shelters...would you also give them that act the same
> > erroneous title of "street theater"?
>
> Yeah, that's *just* like what the Sisters do.
Pretty much.
> Why do I expect to here about str8 pride parades
> any second now.
Nah, I see no reason who one's sexuality choice should be cause for pride.
> > Tolerance goes both ways.
>
> Let me guess: your tolerance isn't unconditional and
> you're about to take your marbles and go home. Maybe
> you can find a baseball bat while you're at it.
No, it's a two-way street. One group cannot expect political support from
another, when the leader their stumping for has supported efforts to mock
that group.
I see the making of a poorly constructed straw man argument here. If we're
judging on words, you seem to be the only one here predisposed to
violence...although I'm fairly certain that's limited to the keyboard
muscles.
> > This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> > tolerance. Your actions and language clearly indictate that you are a
> > perfect fit to move back to the California home of intolerance -- Orange
> > Co.
> Look str8asshole, you're the one who can't tell
> the difference between a bunch of street clowns
> in a small and insignificant town, and a world
> wide organization who explicitly and with much
> vim and vigor seeks to deny gay people rights,
> as well as using dehumanizing rhetoric that gives
> Young Christian Soldiers carte blanche to rid the
> world of the homosexual scourge.
>
> A get a fucking grip, str8asshole. Get some
> perspective, str8asshole.
Here we go with the nasty talk again. Why so much hostility? Did you get
beat up all the time in OC or something, decide to move up here for safety
in numbers and a relative overall acceptance of your lifestyle
choice...and now want to strike out at anybody perceiced as somebody who
hurt you in life (from the safety of your keyboard, of course)? Hey,
admitting it is half the battle.
Just because a group or a lot of members within a group believe certain
lifestyle choices are wrong or abnormal....when those lifestyle choices
may be accepted to the point of mainstream for this City...does not mean
that group is wrong. Maybe they are right...maybe it is abnormal...maybe
it isn't. But being openly hostile towards that group doesn't convert
mindsets...it solidifies them. If you can't accept that there are groups
here who have been here much longer than you or your movement don't
support what you've chosen as being normal and deserving of special rights
based on their sexuality choices, you can always call Cheap Tickets and
buy yourself a one-way ticket to John Wayne International.
--Mike
FJ!!
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>it isn't. But being openly hostile towards that group doesn't convert
>mindsets...it solidifies them.
What you don't seem to want to understand or acknowledge is that the
Catholic Church has had a far longer, more vocal, and more violent
history of hostilities towards homosexuals than you being called a
str8asshole or a street-theater group in nun-drag. Reading your lines
above is like watching a bloody invasion army going "Why is everbody so
*angry?* I can't beleive everybody is so *angry!* If they were nicer to
us we'd... we'd... well, we wouldn't leave or anything, but we be
*nicer* too. We would."
If you and the Cathoclic Chruch would like us to be nice to them,
they could pull out of trying to govern our lives, drop the "mental
illness" hostilities, perhaps apologize for a couple of millenia of
open warfare to us, and quietly tend to their own. Until then, you're
actually getting far less hostility then you are actually deserving of.
>support what you've chosen as being normal and deserving of special rights
Lie. Nobody is asking for special rights. So you lie, but you are asking
us to play nice.
FJ!!
"This was a nice hotel: nobody was on crystal meth." -- Dean's travels II
Clayton Colwell
: If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on Gay
: Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade people managed to
Ooooo, yeah. Lots of gayfolk routinely bust into churches
and take over services.
: and then marched
: back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays and
: wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to spread
: like wildfire"
I guess you missed the dude with the placard decrying
homosexuality that I'd seen on Market Street every time
I've visited SF.
: and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen to
: make to homeless shelters...would you also give them that act the same
: erroneous title of "street theater"?
You're comparing gnats and elephants.
****** Clay Colwell (aka StealthTroll) ***** er...@bga.com ******
* "In the future, we will recognize software crashes as technologically *
* mandated ergonomic rest breaks - and we will pay extra for them." *
* -- Crazy Uncle Joe Hannibal *
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
"A group?" One of the largest and most powerful multinational
institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
>believe certain
>lifestyle choices
Like the ad says, "it's not a lifestyle, it's a life."
--
Ellen Evans 17 Across: The "her" of "Leave Her to Heaven"
je...@panix.com New York Times, 7/14/96
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
[]
>Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
>overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
Your little
>screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
And your tiny attempt at condescending sarcasm screams nothing but
"massively rhetorically inept."
Michael Wise
> >Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
>
> "A group?" One of the largest and most powerful multinational
> institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
> attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
If you have the intellectual integrity to do so, how about debating my
points and drop the juvenile picking at semantics?
> >believe certain
> >lifestyle choices
>
> Like the ad says, "it's not a lifestyle, it's a life."
Hey, it's an ad...it must be right.
--Mike
Michael Wise
(FJ!!) wrote:
> >it isn't. But being openly hostile towards that group doesn't convert
> >mindsets...it solidifies them.
>
> What you don't seem to want to understand or acknowledge is that the
> Catholic Church has had a far longer, more vocal, and more violent
> history of hostilities towards homosexuals than you being called a
> str8asshole or a street-theater group in nun-drag.
"Hi, group X was hostile to group Y xxx years ago, so group Y has the
right and should be hostile to group X and every member of it for
eternity"
> If you and the Cathoclic Chruch would like us to be nice to them,
> they could pull out of trying to govern our lives, drop the "mental
> illness" hostilities, perhaps apologize for a couple of millenia of
> open warfare to us, and quietly tend to their own.
I could care less if gay activists are mean to me or The Church. I do
care, when elected officials condone and sanction hostile actions and
performances directed at ANY group. You can stand on the rooftops with our
round friend Michael Thomas and slam the Church with all the rantings you
want. It's a free country and your ravings fall largely on deaf ears
anyway. However, I do not understand how somebody like Amianno can can
possibly present himself as representing the interests of all the citizens
he aspires to represent when he has taken specifc and deliberate actions
to offend them. That's what started this thread: Tom Ammiano...elected
officials who take actions based on the desires of a small new-comer vocal
minority.
> Until then, you're
> actually getting far less hostility then you are actually deserving of.
And less than these so-called "gay progessives" are capable of giving
without a serious counter-response.
> >support what you've chosen as being normal and deserving of special rights
>
> Lie. Nobody is asking for special rights. So you lie, but you are asking
> us to play nice.
A separate issue from this thread, and one of which I don't have the
desire to engage in at length..but I will say that when any one group
askes for a certain right or privilege based on a specific trait or
lifestyle choice they have...then that is special rights.
--Mike
Ellen Evans
>Talk to us about Islam and the other religions that would just as soon burn
>you at the stake, (AND DO) than look at you before you tell me about the
>Catholics!
A) Islam is much less of a monolith than the Catholic Church. Neither
racism nor blatant ignorance make for good arguments.
B) We should be sobbingly grateful that the stated position of the
Catholic Church, while asserting that because I love who I love I am
"objectively disordered," isn't *immediately* lethal? Oddly enough, I
have slightly higher standards for who earns my respect.
Michael Wise
> >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
>
> Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
> Your little
> >screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
>
> And your tiny attempt at condescending sarcasm screams nothing but
> "massively rhetorically inept."
Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
--Mike
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-1111...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> In article <v7emdwe...@fasolt.mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas
> <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > > > Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
> > > > just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
> > >
> > > Some might say that David Duke's support for the KKK is also just
> > > symbolism as well. The point is Ammiano went out of his way to
make sure
> > > that these "sisters" who openly mock the church
So fucking what? this is america, mofo, and anyone can mock
anything they mocking well want to.
You got a problem with that?
> > > got a chance to do
their
> > > thing on one of the church's holiest days.
Mofo, the RCC doesn't own Easter. It was a pagan holiday that
got hijacked by xians (syncretism happens) and the RCs don't
speak for all xians anyway. It also happened to be THEIR
20th Aniversary.
> > > It showed complete
intolerance
> > > and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
Nope. Only that pudwhacker ArchDeluxe Darth Vader, and he can't
be disrespected enough. If the asshole doesn't like gays,
he can ask his asshole buddy Cardinal Ratso to go to another place.
He wasn't invited, and he wasn't elected, and he has NO right to
IN ANY WAY try to tell the City how to handle its business.
Unless he wants to give up his tax-exempt status.
> > You and your fucking papist cronies can all get
> > raped and die. I'm sick and tired of listening
> > to the bleating whines of the poor downtrodden
> > papists who think that it's A-OK for the papist
> > in chief to say that faggots are suffering from
> > an "objective disorder" and do everything
> > possible to keep the boot in the face of faggots
> > everywhere ("Yes on Knight," anyone?), but draw
> > the line at a street theater group who raise
> > money for AIDS charities. Like there is *any*
> > fucking comparison.
> >
> > If the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence offend
> > *you* and the pea brained bigots like *you*,
> > they are doing exactly what they should be
> > doing. In this case, they managed to identify
> > you instantaneously as complete unthinking
> > "I've got mine, Jack" asshole.
applause
> > I think that Ammiano would be an unqualified
> > disaster for SF,
4 more years of Slobodan Brown will be, fer shere.
but if he does nothing else but
> > cause a few more beet faced papists to blow a
> > blood vessel over the Sisters, then it won't be
> > a complete disaster.
>
> Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
I'm not an overweight gay man, and not a street punk, but I can
still kick your virtual ass online, and no doubt your fat real one
too.
> Your little
> screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
And yours is hysterically shrieking
COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
> It's funny how people who whine the most about other throwing
stereotypes
> and generalizations on their group based on the actions of a few are
the
> the first and loudest people to do the very same to other groups.
So you say that ArchDeluxe Darth Vader does not represent all of
you? Cool.
> If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on
Gay
> Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade
Why would they? For what reason?
> people managed to and then
marched
> back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays
Mocking gays? How? Be specific.
But I'd rather you biblebators mocked rather than bashed.
I doubt you have the fashion sense to do well at mocking, though.
> and
> wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to
spread
> like wildfire"
Um. Bearing false witness is a SIN, biblebator.
You gonna burn in hell for that.
AIDS was first noted in Africa, and was not "caused" by anyone.
It is primarily spread in Africa and Asia by heterosexual contact.
In America, the group with the fastest increasing infection rates
is black women, who mostly get it from heterosexual contact.
> and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen
to
> make to homeless shelters...
Maybe if you breeder assholes hadn't in fact CAUSED overpopulation,
we wouldn't need so many homeless shelters. The main cause of
homelessness
is NOT ENOUGH HOMES. America's population is still increasing.
Maybe if that old faggot in Rome hadn't had fits about contraception,
those catholic 3rd worlders wouldn't be dumping their excess population
on the civilized world, and we would ahve enough space for everyone.
>would you also give them that act the same
> erroneous title of "street theater"?
They probably wouldn't be amusing enough.
> Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be
about
> tolerance.
Yeah. If the Sisters had put on their show on the steps of
St Mary Maytag, maybe you'd have a point.
But I though you Opus Dei fuckwits didn't plan on spending
Easter Sunday hanging in the Castro. So who the fuck should
care?
> Your actions and language clearly indictate that you are a
> perfect fit to move back to the California home of intolerance --
Orange
> Co.
And you need to go to Saudi Arabia, where you'd find your beliefs
could get your head cut off.
That is why we don't allow you religious maniacs to control
the government.
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>In article <80hpep$gp9$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
>
>
>> >Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
>>
>> "A group?" One of the largest and most powerful multinational
>> institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
>> attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
>
>If you have the intellectual integrity to do so, how about debating my
>points
You haven't made any.
Michael Wise
Gordito <SPAMN...@NADASPAMpanixSPAMNADA.com> wrote:
> > Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> > tolerance.
>
> Surely you're not equating the catholic church, which is on record
> about their instructions to their members and churches to exclude gay
> people
That's funny...I don't remember the Church ever telling me to exclude gay
people. Did the Church ever tell you that?
> The catholic church - a huge, wealthy multinational with enormous
> power and influence - and its members want to be free of any and
> all criticism, down to disallowing public displays by individuals
> exploring and commenting on their own experience with the church
> and catholicism, and they do it by claiming victim status and
> shouting "intolerance!".
I could care less what "The Sisters" do...however, I do care when
officials elected to represent the entire city promote, condone, and allow
such mockeries to happen at tax-payer expense. That one of the major
supporters of this group who mocks the Church wishes to be our mayor is
what started this thread. He does not deserve to be mayor has he has not
displayed that he can represent ALL contituencies...but he has shown that
he can anger and mock some.
--Mike
Michael Wise
> >> >Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
> >>
> >> "A group?" One of the largest and most powerful multinational
> >> institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
> >> attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
> >
> >If you have the intellectual integrity to do so, how about debating my
> >points
>
> You haven't made any.
Keep responding with non-answers. If you can make intelligent
counterpoints, then why participate. I don't care if you disagree with
me...I don't care if you flame me...but at least stick to the topic and
address what was written...or you get tossed into the kill file.
--Mike
Icono Clast
> On 10 Nov 1999 21:21:23 -0800, Jym Dyer <j...@igc.org> wrote:
> >=o= Oh, and did I mention that this very same measure also
> >approved building a streetcar line down Geary?
> Interesting that they want to replace the old B line, which was
> torn out in the 1960s. Does the old car barn still stand at the
> top of the hill, across the street from the Alexandria theater
> (if IT is still there)?
I think you're thinking of the one on Presidio Avenue. It's been for
busses only for many years if it's still in use. I think it's still
the Municipal Railway headquarters.
Yes, the Alexandria's still there but they've cut it up. The Royal
and Alhambra on Polk, however, are closed but still standing.
The B Geary went from either the Ferry Building or Key System
Terminal to The Beach. The Third Street line went way out there and
featured an overpass at the Sixteenth Street railroad tracks.
Automobiles could use it, too.
--
ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in 47.335² mile San Francisco.
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> In article <v77ljnv...@fasolt.mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas
> <mi...@mtcc.com> wrote
> > > If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market
Street on Gay
> > > Pride day
It should be noted that the Sisters don't run The Parade.
snip
> > Why do I expect to here about str8 pride parades
> > any second now.
>
> Nah, I see no reason who one's sexuality choice should be cause for
pride.
Yeah. That hound of a mother of yours should have been slapped
for fucking; look at the results. Too bad she "chose" heterosexuality.
Or was it beastiality she "chose" . ..
> > > Tolerance goes both ways.
> >
> > Let me guess: your tolerance isn't unconditional and
> > you're about to take your marbles and go home. Maybe
> > you can find a baseball bat while you're at it.
>
> No, it's a two-way street. One group cannot expect political support
from
> another,
Interesting. So Catholicism is POLITICS, is it?
Cool.
Start paying taxes, you deadbeat.
snip
> I see the making of a poorly constructed straw man argument here.
Yeah, your straw men are a disgrace.
snip whine
> Just because a group or a lot of members within a group believe
certain
> lifestyle choices are wrong or abnormal....
They can shut their gobs and live as they see fit.
No one is trying to force you to "choose" homosexuality,
and it's a good thing, too. You'd never get a date.
I think mofos who chose to be catholic are wrong and abnormal.
>when those lifestyle
choices
> may be accepted to the point of mainstream for this City...does not
mean
> that group is wrong. Maybe they are right...maybe it is
abnormal...maybe
> it isn't. But being openly hostile towards that group doesn't convert
> mindsets...
You are assuming your pals have minds to set.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
>it solidifies them.
Yup. Even MLK didn't convert many KKKers. So be solid in your
bigotry; you don't have the cranial capacity to think for yourself.
Pay, pray, and obey. All your leader wants of you. And it's all
you can do, too.
> If you can't accept that there are
groups
> here who have been here much longer than you
Longer? Seems to me that homosexuality has been around longer than
the RCC. And ArchDeluxe has been around a lot less time than
the Sisters have been.
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
Evans) wrote:
>
> > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even
an
> > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
Hey, mofo, I'm no queen. And I'm far nastier in person than he'll ever
be online or IRL.
snip
> Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
Excellent rebuttal, Mr. Pot.
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-0911...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> In article <1415c574...@usw-ex0106-043.remarq.com>, j...@igc.org
> <j...@igc.org> wrote:
>
> > >> Tom Ammiano is our only choice if we're going to keep SF for
> > >> its residents and make City Hall listen to the neighborhoods.
> > > For all its residents ... as long as you're not a white
> > > heterosexual male or a Catholic ... granted, we may only be
> > > about 15-20% of the City's population ... but Tom doesn't seem
> > > to give a damn about us ...
>
> > =o= I don't know what your problem is, but your comments say
> > more about the chip on our shoulder than about anything that Tom
> > Ammiano has done or said.
No shit. If he isn't just a troll, he is SERIOUSLY paranoic.
> I think most of the western side of the City and just about anybody
who is
> a moderate or conservative (by San Francisco standards) has had good
> reason to not support Tom.
Why? Aren't you aware that YOU are the next to be ousted? Are you
that stupid that you can't see the damage the insane real estate
speculation has done to the entire economy of The City?
> Not that everything he has done is
bad...but he
> has said and done enough to inflame and alienate the above groups.
And people who have been economically cleansed out of SF can't vote.
I'd rather be inflamed and alienated instead of forced out of
my home, how about you? Well, just wait. You'll find out soon
enough, if Willie has another 4 years to sell off the rest of
everything.
Eric Holeman
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>me...I don't care if you flame me...but at least stick to the topic and
>address what was written...or you get tossed into the kill file.
Ooooooh...now that's tellin' her!
--
Eric Holeman Chicago, Illinois USA
"About all Ammiano and Jordan have in common is a dislike of Brown and
documented proof that they've been naked with men. "
Rob Morse, S.F. Examiner
Clayton Colwell
: In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
: > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
: > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
: >
: > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
: I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
Your implication that MT somehow needs physical backup to indulge
his personality is noted, compared against reality, and discarded.
: > Your little
: > >screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
: >
: > And your tiny attempt at condescending sarcasm screams nothing but
: > "massively rhetorically inept."
: Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
Logic 101: Ellen's comment was not an insult; it was an observation.
Charlie Fulton
: In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
:
:
: > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
: > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
: >
: > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
:
: I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
Get raped.
--
Charlie Fulton--foultone@mtcc.com--http://www.mtcc.com/~foultone/
"You wouldn't recognize your own reflection in a mirror."
Steven Levine
ace...@my-deja.com
FJ!! wrote in message ...
SNIP>
>If you and the Cathoclic Chruch would like us to be nice to them,
>they could pull out of trying to govern our lives, drop the "mental
>illness" hostilities, perhaps apologize for a couple of millenia of
>open warfare to us, and quietly tend to their own.
'Fraid not, FJ. It wouldn't stop at that and you know it. Even if the church
DID back off, the whiners would pursue them to no end. They would demand the
church change its ways, demand it change its doctrine, demand, demand,
demand. There is just no winning with this group in this town. They have
gotten themselves entrenched into politics for one reason, and one reason
only; to further their cause no matter what the cost to the greater good. To
them there is no greater good than their own little world and their own
twisted ideas on how we ALL should live, and Heaven forbid any one of us
speak badly of them, for fear of being branded with any number of "ists"
that they so quickly, in their *tolerant* manner throw out.
ace...@my-deja.com
Gordito wrote in message
>
>But we weren't talking about Islam.
Of course you're not! How can you P.C. people do that? That would mean
taking on people of color, and cultures other than the evil Europeans. Why,
you'd all be beside yourselves with self anger and self hate. Oops, can't
say hate...it's a crime. Self dislike.
Gordito
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> In article <121119991021004247%SPAMN...@NADASPAMpanixSPAMNADA.com>,
> Gordito <SPAMN...@NADASPAMpanixSPAMNADA.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > Tolerance goes both ways. This is San Francisco, it's supposed to be about
> > > tolerance.
> >
> > Surely you're not equating the catholic church, which is on record
> > about their instructions to their members and churches to exclude gay
> > people
>
> That's funny...I don't remember the Church ever telling me to exclude gay
> people. Did the Church ever tell you that?
I'm not a member of your church. And you don't remember any
instances of gay catholic groups who had been invited in the past
to use church property for their meetings now being told they were
no longer welcome? I do. Ah, but they're excluding groups, not
gay people! Really - don't go there. It will just make you look
foolish.
> > The catholic church - a huge, wealthy multinational with enormous
> > power and influence - and its members want to be free of any and
> > all criticism, down to disallowing public displays by individuals
> > exploring and commenting on their own experience with the church
> > and catholicism, and they do it by claiming victim status and
> > shouting "intolerance!".
>
> I could care less what "The Sisters" do...however, I do care when
> officials elected to represent the entire city promote, condone, and allow
> such mockeries to happen at tax-payer expense.
People who belong to several majority groups forget, conveniently,
that minority tax dollars go to support majority interests at a much
greater level than majority contributions go to minority interests.
The "tax-payer expense" line is so over-used that it's now just a
marker for attempts to enforce prejudice. I don't like the massive
tax concessions for religious groups that my tax dollars support -
are you willing to give those up so that we won't have any tax-payer
involvement in religion? Or is that tax-payer expense OK when it's
a cause you support and not OK when that cause is questioned (and I
suggest you used "blasphemed against" instead of "mocked"; its decidedly
more accurate.)
Not everybody belongs to your church. Not everyone cares who
makes fun of it. "tax payer" does equate to "catholic".
> That one of the major
> supporters of this group who mocks the Church wishes to be our mayor is
> what started this thread. He does not deserve to be mayor has he has not
> displayed that he can represent ALL contituencies...but he has shown that
> he can anger and mock some.
He's not willing to be silent in the face of a huge power which is
trying to silence a small number of (agreeably festive) critics.
And you think that's a bad thing. You should be ashamed.
Big Frank
Michael Wise wrote in message ...
>In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans)
wrote:
>
>
>> >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
>> >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
>>
>> Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
>
>I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
>> >screed screams nothing but bigotry my fine "disordered" friend.
>>
>> And your tiny attempt at condescending sarcasm screams nothing but
>> "massively rhetorically inept."
>
>Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
>
Mike:
As you've seen, those who claim to be the most open, giving and tolerant are
usually just the opposite. And when you call them on it, they will attack
YOU and not your issues, because they have no ammo but to call names and
shout "homophobe' or "racist" or any other politically correct epithet.
What brings this home is the stand Brown has taken in the mayor's race. He
says now that he won't bring personal attacks into it. He is afraid he will
be branded a homophobe, even if what he would say were to be true. Yet,
Ammiano can and will say anything he likes, as no one will take the chance
of calling him to task, for the same "homophobe brand" fear. This is irony
at it's highest. A black mayor, afraid of speaking his mind against an
opponent for fear of being branded a "hater". Obviously, if Jordan were his
opponent, that rule wouldn't stand, after all, to shout down and belittle a
straight white male is becoming a national pastime.
My, how this city has sunk.
Michael Wise
> > > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even
> an
> > > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> > > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
> > I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
> Hey, mofo, I'm no queen. And I'm far nastier in person than he'll ever
> be online or IRL.
Stand back girls...the keyboard muscle flexers are here. They're mad as
hell, and they aren't going to take it any longer.
--Mike
Michael Wise
> > > > > Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
> > > > > just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
> > > >
> > > > Some might say that David Duke's support for the KKK is also just
> > > > symbolism as well. The point is Ammiano went out of his way to
> make sure
> > > > that these "sisters" who openly mock the church
>
> So fucking what? this is america, mofo, and anyone can mock
> anything they mocking well want to.
> You got a problem with that?
Nope...but I do have a problem with officials elected to represent a
diverse population not only condoning it, but blocking off city tax-payer
financed streets to promote such bigotry....and I think a significant
chunk of the SF electorate will have a problem with electing a mayorial
candidate who was at the forefront of getting it approved. Is that good
enough for you, cowboy?
> > > > It showed complete
> intolerance
> > > > and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
>
> Nope. Only that pudwhacker ArchDeluxe Darth Vader, and he can't
> be disrespected enough. If the asshole doesn't like gays,
> he can ask his asshole buddy Cardinal Ratso to go to another place.
> He wasn't invited, and he wasn't elected, and he has NO right to
> IN ANY WAY try to tell the City how to handle its business.
> Unless he wants to give up his tax-exempt status.
But the constituencies of this city are supposed to have a say on how
their city is run and not have the views of selfish "activists" crammed
down their throats at tax-payer expense.
>
> > > You and your fucking papist cronies can all get
> > > raped and die. I'm sick and tired of listening
> > > to the bleating whines of the poor downtrodden
> > > papists who think that it's A-OK for the papist
> > > in chief to say that faggots are suffering from
> > > an "objective disorder" and do everything
> > > possible to keep the boot in the face of faggots
> > > everywhere ("Yes on Knight," anyone?), but draw
> > > the line at a street theater group who raise
> > > money for AIDS charities. Like there is *any*
> > > fucking comparison.
> > >
> > > If the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence offend
> > > *you* and the pea brained bigots like *you*,
> > > they are doing exactly what they should be
> > > doing. In this case, they managed to identify
> > > you instantaneously as complete unthinking
> > > "I've got mine, Jack" asshole.
> applause
> > > I think that Ammiano would be an unqualified
> > > disaster for SF,
>
> 4 more years of Slobodan Brown will be, fer shere.
The lesser of two evils.
>
> but if he does nothing else but
> > > cause a few more beet faced papists to blow a
> > > blood vessel over the Sisters, then it won't be
> > > a complete disaster.
> >
> > Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> > overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
>
> I'm not an overweight gay man, and not a street punk, but I can
> still kick your virtual ass online, and no doubt your fat real one
> too.
The chubby cheeks in your picture indicate otherwise. Say what you want
about me, I don't care. I'm certainly not fat and I grew out of playground
fights in grade school...but you're more than welcome to take the first
shot...as it will be your last.
>
> > It's funny how people who whine the most about other throwing
> stereotypes
> > and generalizations on their group based on the actions of a few are
> the
> > the first and loudest people to do the very same to other groups.
>
> So you say that ArchDeluxe Darth Vader does not represent all of
> you? Cool.
I think you will find most Catholics under 50 are fairly free thinking.
We're human just like anybody else. We don't agree with everything the
Church does and we don't practice everything the church says to. It's ok
to not be a doctrine automaton just as it's OK to be an American, love
your country, but not agree/support everything it does.
> > If a group of hetersosexual people managed to reserve Market Street on
> Gay
> > Pride day before the Gay Pride Parade
>
> Why would they? For what reason?
In-your-face anti-homosexuality, just like some segments of the gay
population like to be in-your-face anti-Catholic...and use city resources
to do it...and expect to get elected mayor inspite of it.
> > people managed to and then
> marched
> > back and forth on Market between Church and Castro mocking gays
>
> Mocking gays? How? Be specific.
> But I'd rather you biblebators mocked rather than bashed.
> I doubt you have the fashion sense to do well at mocking, though.
There we go with the insults again. I'll let your imaginiation handle this
one...as there are numerous ways gays (or any other group) can be mocked.
> > and
> > wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to
> spread
> > like wildfire"
>
> Um. Bearing false witness is a SIN, biblebator.
> You gonna burn in hell for that.
> AIDS was first noted in Africa, and was not "caused" by anyone.
> It is primarily spread in Africa and Asia by heterosexual contact.
> In America, the group with the fastest increasing infection rates
> is black women, who mostly get it from heterosexual contact.
I didn't say where AIDS originated, and I didn't say who had the fastest
infection rate. Would you care to tell me which group in the Unites States
has the highest incidence of AIDS? Would you care to tell me what was the
leading cause of death among gay males in SF? Would you care to tell me
which group in SF continues to contact AIDS at the highest rate in the
City?
> > and then donated the proceeds to any money they happen
> to
> > make to homeless shelters...
>
> Maybe if you breeder assholes hadn't in fact CAUSED overpopulation,
> we wouldn't need so many homeless shelters. The main cause of
> homelessness
> is NOT ENOUGH HOMES. America's population is still increasing.
What with all these so-called "progressives" letting loose with the
profanities at the drop of a hat? Are you that insecure in who you are
that you have to be so inflammatory against anybody else who isn't one of
you? You damage your cause at every step.
> And you need to go to Saudi Arabia, where you'd find your beliefs
> could get your head cut off.
Actually, I've been to Saudi Arabia...and I assure you my beliefs were not
punished in any way.
> That is why we don't allow you religious maniacs to control
> the government.
Instead you allow self-serving activists representing the will of a small
minority to control it. Brilliant.
Michael Wise
wrote:
> Michael Wise (nos...@nospam.net) wrote:
> : In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen
Evans) wrote:
>
> : > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> : > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> : >
> : > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
>
> : I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
> Your implication that MT somehow needs physical backup to indulge
> his personality is noted, compared against reality, and discarded.
Whatever. Just let him talk to the person on the street like that and see
what happens. There's no need for profanities and insults when debating.
--Mike
Michael Wise
Fulton) wrote:
> : > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> : > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> : >
> : > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
> :
> : I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
> Get raped.
In your dreams...although you can't have me..I'm taken.
--Mike
Big Frank
hereti...@my-deja.com wrote in message <80i0v3
>Why? Aren't you aware that YOU are the next to be ousted? Are you
>that stupid that you can't see the damage the insane real estate
>speculation has done to the entire economy of The City?
Well, if you're a homeowner it's pretty damn good pickin's I'd say!
Hell, I paid $31,000 for a 4 bedroom house in the Sunset not 30 years ago.
I'd say it's a pretty good return on MY investment!
>
>And people who have been economically cleansed out of SF can't vote.
How will a home/property owner be economically cleansed out, when our
investments keep climbing, or even when they level out? I can always *rent*
my places out to some yuppie with a conservative bent anyway. He can vote my
way, if I decide to move to a more sane, safer, cleaner town. I'll have the
best of both worlds!
hereti...@my-deja.com
<ace...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> FJ!! wrote in message ...
>
> SNIP>
>
> >If you and the Cathoclic Chruch would like us to be nice to them,
> >they could pull out of trying to govern our lives, drop the "mental
> >illness" hostilities, perhaps apologize for a couple of millenia of
> >open warfare to us, and quietly tend to their own.
>
> 'Fraid not, FJ. It wouldn't stop at that and you know it.
Gee. So you can predict the future?
Damn, you oughtta get Greenspan's job.
> Even if the
church
> DID back off, the whiners would pursue them to no end.
REally? What makes you think so? Seems to me that until
ArchDeluxe shoved his fat ass into the worksing of local government,
the Sisters were perfectly happy to ignore the RCs. Could it be
that you are just projecting? Sounds more like it to me.
> They would
demand the
> church change its ways,
I don't give a fuck what you ratbastards do in your churches.
It's when you fuckwits try to force everyone else to live
by your goofy rules that I have a problem.
demand it change its doctrine, demand, demand,
> demand. There is just no winning with this group in this town.
Maybe because you're on a losing side. Your whining self-pity just
makes you look even more disgusting.
> They
have
> gotten themselves entrenched into politics for one reason, and one
reason
> only; to further their cause no matter what the cost to the greater
good.
Yeah, but unlike that AssBishop, they use methods like elections.
No one voted for Darth Vader. He wasn't elected. So why on earth
does he think anyone here should do what he wants?
Let him pay taxes if he wants to be a PAC.
> To
> them there is no greater good than their own little world and their
own
> twisted ideas on how we ALL should live, and Heaven forbid any one of
us
> speak badly of them, for fear of being branded with any number of
"ists"
> that they so quickly, in their *tolerant* manner throw out.
Wow. Classic projection. Freud would be proud.
Why don't you do like Jesus said and just pray in private,
rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's?
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> In article <80i0js$bs1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hereti...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> Stand back girls...the keyboard muscle flexers are here. They're mad
as
> hell, and they aren't going to take it any longer.
I am a grrl, Wimpetta. And I can kick your ass online and off.
So if you don't like it, don't throw the first punch.
Gordito
> Gordito wrote in message
> >
> >But we weren't talking about Islam.
>
> Of course you're not! How can you P.C. people do that?
The use of the term "P.C.", in 1999 (and for a while before)
is a marker for fools who can't/won't discuss issues based on
their merits.
> That would mean
> taking on people of color, and cultures other than the evil Europeans. Why,
> you'd all be beside yourselves with self anger and self hate. Oops, can't
> say hate...it's a crime. Self dislike.
And you continue in the same mindless mode. I don't think that
Europeans are evil. I don't think that all non-Europeans or
non-European culture are outside the range of criticism.
I don't have self-anger or self-hate. Just the opposite - I
like myself and want to be the best person I possibly can.
That doesn't mean that I deny that I've absorbed many of the
prejudices that americans get presented to them as fact.
What I can do, however, is to try to be aware of those prejudices.
I didn't say that Islam was beyond criticism (and I bet that
my knowledge of what Islam is and isn't, however small, is far
beyond yours.) What I was trying to point out was that responding
to criticisms of catholicism by saying "Islam is worse!" is
stupid and (referring to the first paragraph) a willful and transparent
attempt to avoid the issues being discussed.
Clearer?
Gordito
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> In article <80hui6$aa7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hereti...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > > > > > Ammiano's support for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is
> > > > > > just symbolism. An expression of support for gay rights.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some might say that David Duke's support for the KKK is also just
> > > > > symbolism as well. The point is Ammiano went out of his way to
> > make sure
> > > > > that these "sisters" who openly mock the church
> >
> > So fucking what? this is america, mofo, and anyone can mock
> > anything they mocking well want to.
> > You got a problem with that?
>
> Nope...but I do have a problem with officials elected to represent a
> diverse population not only condoning it, but blocking off city tax-payer
> financed streets to promote such bigotry....and I think a significant
> chunk of the SF electorate will have a problem with electing a mayorial
> candidate who was at the forefront of getting it approved. Is that good
> enough for you, cowboy?
You apparently can't see the dissonance between "diverse population"
and your objection to a group of drag queens having a celebration
in a public space. And as much as you keep repeating the "bigotry"
line, the purpose of the Sisters is _not_ focused on being
anti-catholic. If you don't want anyone to comment on how funny
nuns look, don't let them out in public.
Admit it: you're looking for government officials to stifle something
you don't like and to prevent free expression in public spaces that
everyone, including non-catholics, pays for.
You're taking the basic "freedom to" rights and trying to use
the same logic to support "freedom from". It just doesn't wash.
You also are trying to assert that a small group of men in
nun-ish drag are a major danger to international catholicism
and should be prevented from having a public celebration.
That's just bullshit.
> > > > > It showed complete
> > intolerance
> > > > > and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
> >
> > Nope. Only that pudwhacker ArchDeluxe Darth Vader, and he can't
> > be disrespected enough. If the asshole doesn't like gays,
> > he can ask his asshole buddy Cardinal Ratso to go to another place.
> > He wasn't invited, and he wasn't elected, and he has NO right to
> > IN ANY WAY try to tell the City how to handle its business.
> > Unless he wants to give up his tax-exempt status.
>
> But the constituencies of this city are supposed to have a say on how
> their city is run and not have the views of selfish "activists" crammed
> down their throats at tax-payer expense.
Don't go. Don't participate. "crammed down their throats" is
another 90's marker for someone who is trying to use legal methods
to force religious orthodoxy. A celebration of the Sisters on one
day is cramming something down your throat while the prevention of
tax-paying citizens from participating should they choose isn't
cramming your beliefs down their throat?
> The chubby cheeks in your picture indicate otherwise. Say what you want
> about me, I don't care. I'm certainly not fat and I grew out of playground
> fights in grade school...but you're more than welcome to take the first
> shot...as it will be your last.
I bet you were in fights.
> I think you will find most Catholics under 50 are fairly free thinking.
> We're human just like anybody else. We don't agree with everything the
> Church does and we don't practice everything the church says to. It's ok
> to not be a doctrine automaton just as it's OK to be an American, love
> your country, but not agree/support everything it does.
What does the vatican say about your pick&choose form of catholicism?
Not much good. You use the church's laws as a bludgeon when it suits
you and you ignore its teachings when you please. Forgive me for
stating that you're massively hypocritical, and let me ask you why
anyone should care when you start shouting "blasphemy" while you
discard church law that gets in the way of you doing what you
want.
I've had catholics who were divorced, were actively fornicating,
masturbating, practicing adultery and sodomy, and using birth control,
tell me that they had issues with my being gay based on the fact that
they were catholic. Fine. Just don't try to suppress what I, as a
non-catholic, do based on "church teachings" when you don't follow
them yourself.
> > And you need to go to Saudi Arabia, where you'd find your beliefs
> > could get your head cut off.
>
> Actually, I've been to Saudi Arabia...and I assure you my beliefs were not
> punished in any way.
Protected because you weren't Saudi. If you were.....
> > That is why we don't allow you religious maniacs to control
> > the government.
>
> Instead you allow self-serving activists representing the will of a small
> minority to control it. Brilliant.
As opposed to what you're proposing, which is a the will of a
majority. Thus the Bill of Rights.
Gordito
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
Have you ever:
- fornicated
- masturbated
- been divorced
?
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>> >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
>> >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
>>
>> Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
>
>I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
Oooh. I bet you think you're being insulting.
[]
>Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
Like calling someone a "queen"?
If you say so.
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>Whatever. Just let him talk to the person on the street like that and see
>what happens.
Nothing in particular.
>There's no need for profanities and insults when debating.
Ah, then clearly you're not debating.
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>> >> >Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
>> >>
>> >> institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
>> >> attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
>> >
>> >If you have the intellectual integrity to do so, how about debating my
>> >points
>>
>> You haven't made any.
>
>Keep responding with non-answers. If you can make intelligent
>counterpoints, then why participate.
Because it's fun making twits like you look like what you are -
incoherent, dishonest, and rhetorically incompetent.
Gordito
<je...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
> Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans)
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >> >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even an
> >> >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> >>
> >> Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
> >
> >I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
> Oooh. I bet you think you're being insulting.
Use of "queen" is yet another marker. People are so obvious.
Michael Wise
> >> >If you have the intellectual integrity to do so, how about debating my
> >> >points
> >>
> >> You haven't made any.
> >
> >Keep responding with non-answers. If you can make intelligent
> >counterpoints, then why participate.
>
> Because it's fun making twits like you look like what you are -
> incoherent, dishonest, and rhetorically incompetent.
I guess the only way you can feel good about yourself is to immerse
yourself in self praise. You continue to slam, and add nothing...small
minded?
--Mike
Gordito
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
So why are you responding to her as opposed to those who have
asked substantive questions about what you've written?
Michael Thomas
> or any other politically correct epithet.
Hey! I'm back in Orange County! Which one of you
wants to bottom for B-1 Bob?
--
Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com http://www.mtcc.com/~mike/)
"I dunno, that's an awful lot of money."
Beavis
Big Frank
hereti...@my-deja.com
Hey, you miserable bastard, sick fuck! What I'm stating is backed up by the
history of you whiney butt pirates always wanting more than you think you're
entitled to simply because you have some "special affliction".
Nowhere did I mention anything about me personally following the Catholic
Doctrine. Or even BEING Catholic for that matter.
And talk about pushing sick ideas down peoples' throats! You want to teach
1st graders that your "lifestyle" is normal, and force the public schools to
make OUR kids to read books with titles such as "Rachel Has Two Mommies".
Don't tell me about pushing an agenda you diseased prick!
It's funny how the more heated these discussions get, the more you people
with fucked-up lives and miserable attitudes get real nasty. I guess that's
why historically, the worst, most gruesome murders in the City are almost
exclusively in "Gaytown". You people just get sooo upset...
Michael Thomas
> In article <80hpep$gp9$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen Evans) wrote:
>
>
> > >Just because a group or a lot of members within a group
> >
> > "A group?" One of the largest and most powerful multinational
> > institutions in the world is hardly usefully described as "a group." Your
> > attempts at rhetorical manipulation are just pitiful.
>
"No, Mr. Pea-brained Papist, I don't want to *debate* you
I want you to *die*"
> > Like the ad says, "it's not a lifestyle, it's a life."
>
> Hey, it's an ad...it must be right.
Q: So how does one bait up a hook, a line, and a
sinker?
A: Flesh of Christ.
Har, har, har.
Jeeves! Refresh my cocktail!
Michael Thomas
> In article nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> And people who have been economically cleansed out of SF can't vote.
> I'd rather be inflamed and alienated instead of forced out of
> my home, how about you? Well, just wait. You'll find out soon
> enough, if Willie has another 4 years to sell off the rest of
> everything.
He's already got his. He ain't going nowhere.
But I'm getting all nostalgic-like again with all
of the pseudo-tolerant talk, objective disorders,
and "lifestyles"!
"There's no place like home.
There's no place like home.
There's no place like home..."
And I wake up, and I'm back on the farm at 25th
and Judah.
Michael Thomas
> Just because a group or a lot of members within a group believe certain
> lifestyle choices are wrong or abnormal....when those lifestyle choices
> may be accepted to the point of mainstream for this City...does not mean
> that group is wrong. Maybe they are right...maybe it is abnormal...maybe
> it isn't.
Scratch a Sister, find a bigot. Every time.
What's great is that this clown advertises
himself as a fourth generation San
Franciscan... As if being a fourth generation
San Franciscan make him immune from his own
bigotries. San Francisco has a *very* rich
history of *lots* of bigotry, str8asshole, and
you're a shining example of how little navel
gazing actually goes on with the majoritarian
str8assholes who fancy themselves "tolerant".
You, str8asshole, are every bit as noxious as
what I grew up with in OC.
<churchlady>
Now, doesn't that make you feel *special*?
</churchlady>
OOPS! Denigrating The Church again. Thousand
pardons massah!
> But being openly hostile towards that group doesn't convert
> mindsets...it solidifies them. If you can't accept that there are groups
> here who have been here much longer than you or your movement don't
> support what you've chosen as being normal and deserving of special rights
> based on their sexuality choices, you can always call Cheap Tickets and
> buy yourself a one-way ticket to John Wayne International.
The ticket is reserved in your name, str8asshole.
Trust me, you will fit in *just* *fine*. And I
guarantee you, B-1 Bob will back you up 100% on
keeping the Sister's from any performing any
heretical sacrilege. Maybe he can lend you a
bomb or two-- on the tax payer's nickel, natch
-- to make certain that the papacy doesn't get
it's poor, poor, feelings hurt.
Boo hoo hoo!
aces_hi
>,
> nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
>snip
>> Stand back girls...the keyboard muscle flexers are here. They're mad
>as
>> hell, and they aren't going to take it any longer.
>
heretic/lunatic wrote
>I am a grrl, Wimpetta. And I can kick your ass online and off.
>So if you don't like it, don't throw the first punch.
>
>
Uh, oh Mike, one of those big, clipped hair, pinched faced, huge-assed dykes
is out to get you!
Michael Thomas
> In article <382c8...@feed1.realtime.net>, er...@bga.com (Clayton Colwell)
> wrote:
> > Michael Wise (nos...@nospam.net) wrote:
> > : I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
> >
> > Your implication that MT somehow needs physical backup to indulge
> > his personality is noted, compared against reality, and discarded.
>
>
Hey Look! It's a str8asshole pretending he has
testosterone!
Oh! Oh! Let me translate!
::burp::
Gordito
wrote:
Nah, it's the bisexual women who have the huge asses.
The butch dykes are barrel-shaped with flat asses.
Just wanted him to know who to look out for.
Michael Wise
<mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > > : I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
> > >
> > > Your implication that MT somehow needs physical backup to indulge
> > > his personality is noted, compared against reality, and discarded.
> >
> >
> > Whatever. Just let him talk to the person on the street like that and see
> > what happens. There's no need for profanities and insults when debating.
>
> Hey Look! It's a str8asshole pretending he has
> testosterone!
>
> Oh! Oh! Let me translate!
>
> ::burp::
Ease off on the cheese fries and onion rings and you won't burp so much.
You'll lose weight and feel much better about yourself in the process. You
can thank me for the free tips later.
--Mike
Charlie Fulton
: "No, Mr. Pea-brained Papist, I don't want to *debate* you
I've held my tongue for a while now.
"Papist" is *really* passe now, Mike. We favor "idolator" or
"cannibal" these days.
--
Charlie Fulton--foultone@mtcc.com--http://www.mtcc.com/~foultone/
"You wouldn't recognize your own reflection in a mirror."
Steven Levine
John Whiteside
>
> Gordito wrote in message
> >
> >But we weren't talking about Islam.
>
> Of course you're not! How can you P.C. people do that?
Please. We all know he's got a Mac.
John Whiteside
> That's funny...I don't remember the Church ever telling me to exclude gay
> people. Did the Church ever tell you that?
You haven't been paying attention.
> I could care less what "The Sisters" do...however, I do care when
> officials elected to represent the entire city promote, condone, and allow
> such mockeries to happen at tax-payer expense.
So you're in favor of churches paying taxes? I mean, why should everyone
else subsidize America's most popular cannibal cult?
MeanMary
: I am a grrl, Wimpetta. And I can kick your ass online and off.
: So if you don't like it, don't throw the first punch.
If you're really planning on kicking his ass, I recommend
that you throw the first punch.
MeanMary
--
Copyright 1999 Mary Ballard // I do not speak for Appalachian State U.
// ball...@am.appstate.edu -
--
it has taken me a lifetime to draw like young children - picasso
MeanMary
: heretic/lunatic wrote
:
: >I am a grrl, Wimpetta. And I can kick your ass online and off.
: >So if you don't like it, don't throw the first punch.
: Uh, oh Mike, one of those big, clipped hair, pinched faced, huge-assed dykes
: is out to get you!
That's a whole lot better than having this small, gorgeous, grinning
dyke beating the crap outta both of you, now isn't it?
hereti...@my-deja.com
Unlike you, I *know* who *my* father is. Stop projecting.
> sick fuck! What I'm stating is backed up
by the
> history of you whiney butt pirates always wanting more than you think
you're
> entitled to simply because you have some "special affliction".
Excuse MOI? Whatever gave you the idea that I was gay, or male?
snip rant. Hey, wanking off while you type will get the keyboard
gunky. Get a lifestyle, fuckwit.
hereti...@my-deja.com
<nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> In article <80hui6$aa7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hereti...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> > So fucking what? this is america, mofo, and anyone can mock
> > anything they mocking well want to.
> > You got a problem with that?
>
> Nope...but I do have a problem with officials elected to represent a
> diverse population not only condoning it, but blocking off city
tax-payer
> financed streets to promote such bigotry....
Fine. Then you will be more than happy to stop blocking off public
streets every sunday for parking around your churches, hmmm?
'sides, I had no idea that so many catholics were so fucking stupid
that they didn't know what the castro was like. The Sisters applied
for a permit, and they got it. It was Easter sunday, not a business
day, and they had far less impact on traffic than virtually any
other closind, like say, for Bay to Breakers. I saw some people
mocking catholics there, and even running NEKKID! better get the
assbishop to stop it!
>and I think a significant
> chunk of the SF electorate will have a problem with electing a
mayorial
> candidate who was at the forefront of getting it approved. Is that
good
> enough for you, cowboy?
(don't you mean cowgrrl?)
Attribtion error. You do know that Das Villie was actually *endorsed*
by
local gay papers for the Nov election, don't you? Hmmmmm?
Because he's been such a good friend of the gay community.
Tell ya whut, cowshit, Das Willie would be the first one
to suck dick for enough money, so don't matter who you vote for
if your only concern is gaybashing. However, you may have noticed
quite a few of the parishioners, esp older ones, have been
economically cleansed out of SF. But that's OK, innit?
> > > > > It showed complete
> > intolerance
> > > > > and disrespect to the Catholics of this fine city.
> >
> > Nope. Only that pudwhacker ArchDeluxe Darth Vader, and he can't
> > be disrespected enough. If the asshole doesn't like gays,
> > he can ask his asshole buddy Cardinal Ratso to go to another place.
> > He wasn't invited, and he wasn't elected, and he has NO right to
> > IN ANY WAY try to tell the City how to handle its business.
> > Unless he wants to give up his tax-exempt status.
>
> But the constituencies of this city are supposed to have a say on how
> their city is run and not have the views of selfish "activists"
crammed
> down their throats at tax-payer expense.
You sure have a hangup on having things shoved down your throat.
And how does that make you feel?
snip
> > I'm not an overweight gay man, and not a street punk, but I can
> > still kick your virtual ass online, and no doubt your fat real one
> > too.
>
> The chubby cheeks in your picture indicate otherwise.
What picture? AFAIK, there are no pictures of me online at all.
Never put one online, don't have a homepage, etc. Are you on
drugs? Should you be?
> Say what you
want
> about me, I don't care. I'm certainly not fat and I grew out of
playground
> fights in grade school...but you're more than welcome to take the
first
> shot...as it will be your last.
Big talker, eh, fatboy? But I don't start fights, I just end 'em.
snip
> I think you will find most Catholics under 50 are fairly free
thinking.
Compared to the Borg, sure.
> We're human just like anybody else. We don't agree with everything the
> Church does and we don't practice everything the church says to. It's
ok
> to not be a doctrine automaton just as it's OK to be an American, love
> your country, but not agree/support everything it does.
Exactly how I feel about the GayAgenda(tm)
snip
> > Why would they? For what reason?
>
> In-your-face anti-homosexuality,
We have that every day of the year. It's called "bashing".
Ever think of moving to Laramie?
> just like some segments of the gay
> population like to be in-your-face anti-Catholic...
Really? Never heard of any Catholic-bashing in this town,
but I know of many cases of gay-bashing. Dunno 'bout YOU,
cowpoke, but I'd rather be mocked than bashed. You might
cream your jeans at getting beat up, I dunno.
>and use city
resources
> to do it...and expect to get elected mayor inspite of it.
Well then, I don't think we should use city funds to promote
in-your-face economic cleansing. You might want to read Micah
and Amos. You might want to consider that they wrote at a time
when the differences between rich and poor became extreme, as they
are now, which is a violation of righteousness. YOu might want
to do something about the "widows and orphans" who are being
forced from their homes by the carpetbaggers. You might want
to consider that you are about as christian as Stalin by refusing
to even acknowledge that what is going on with the economics of
this town are in violation of damn near every religious trad I've
ever heard of.
You also might want to get a bit of education.
Try Don Sharp SJ at St Agnes for info about those prophets.
He's one of the best teachers I ever had.
> > Mocking gays? How? Be specific.
> > But I'd rather you biblebators mocked rather than bashed.
> > I doubt you have the fashion sense to do well at mocking, though.
>
> There we go with the insults again.
No, that was ridicule.
> I'll let your imaginiation handle
this
> one...as there are numerous ways gays (or any other group) can be
mocked.
Yeah. Funny thing is, you think that using deadly force is
"mocking".
> > > and
> > > wearing signs saying "Us gays caused and continue to cause AIDS to
> > spread
> > > like wildfire"
> >
> > Um. Bearing false witness is a SIN, biblebator.
> > You gonna burn in hell for that.
> > AIDS was first noted in Africa, and was not "caused" by anyone.
> > It is primarily spread in Africa and Asia by heterosexual contact.
> > In America, the group with the fastest increasing infection rates
> > is black women, who mostly get it from heterosexual contact.
>
> I didn't say where AIDS originated,
You said that gays caused AIDS. That is complete bullshit.
snip
> > Maybe if you breeder assholes hadn't in fact CAUSED overpopulation,
> > we wouldn't need so many homeless shelters. The main cause of
> > homelessness
> > is NOT ENOUGH HOMES. America's population is still increasing.
>
> What with all these so-called "progressives"
I'm not a progressive, so-called or otherwise.
>letting loose with the
> profanities at the drop of a hat?
I learned it at the SFPD Academy.
> Are you that insecure in who you are
> that you have to be so inflammatory against anybody else who isn't one
of
> you?
One of ME? I speak for myself.
> You damage your cause at every step.
But not as much as YOU do for YOUR cause.
> > And you need to go to Saudi Arabia, where you'd find your beliefs
> > could get your head cut off.
>
> Actually, I've been to Saudi Arabia...and I assure you my beliefs were
not
> punished in any way.
Sure. That's why our chaplains in Desert Storm couldn't wear
any insignia, and had to be called "morale officers" and why our
soldiers couldn't celebrate Christmas.
Did you know you could be executed if you gave a Saudi a bible?
> > That is why we don't allow you religious maniacs to control
> > the government.
>
> Instead you allow self-serving activists representing the will of a
small
> minority to control it. Brilliant.
But THEY can be voted out of office.
You can't do that with religious leaders who are political leaders,
haven't you noticed? Or maybe you didn't take history or something.
I'd recommend Elisabeth Gleason at USF, but she retired a couple of
years ago. Her course on history of the reformation was quite
excellent.
Are you really an idiot, or are you just passing?
David Covert
hereti...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article
> <nospam-1211...@adsl-63-193-99-83.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>,
> nos...@nospam.net (Michael Wise) wrote:
> > In article <80hp54$gk2$1...@panix7.panix.com>, je...@panix.com (Ellen
> Evans) wrote:
> >
> > > >Amazing how the disconnected distance of the Internet can make even
> an
> > > >overweight gay man sound like a tough street punk...eh?
> > > Actually he sounds like that all the time and in person, too.
> > I'm sure he does...among a circle of queens.
>
> Hey, mofo, I'm no queen. And I'm far nastier in person than he'll ever
> be online or IRL.
>
> snip
> > Internet debating 101: the beaten almost always resort to insults.
>
> Excellent rebuttal, Mr. Pot.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
All I can say anent this entire thread is "Lord, where is Mattison when we
need her?"
frank w elliott jr
: Michael Thomas (mi...@mtcc.com) wrote:
:
: : "No, Mr. Pea-brained Papist, I don't want to *debate* you
:
: I've held my tongue for a while now.
:
: "Papist" is *really* passe now, Mike. We favor "idolator" or
: "cannibal" these days.
You forgot "catamite for the Vatican."
: --
frank w elliott jr
: aces_hi (ace...@my-deja.com) wrote:
: : heretic/lunatic wrote
: :
: : >I am a grrl, Wimpetta. And I can kick your ass online and off.
: : >So if you don't like it, don't throw the first punch.
: : >
: : Uh, oh Mike, one of those big, clipped hair, pinched faced, huge-assed dykes
: : is out to get you!
Strictly speaking, Heretic from SF isn't a dyke. She's into seducing
Jesuit priests. Each to her own tastes.
:
: That's a whole lot better than having this small, gorgeous, grinning
: dyke beating the crap outta both of you, now isn't it?
To be more explicit a small, gorgeous, grinning, dyke, bodybuilder.
:
: MeanMary
Ellen Evans
Michael Wise <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>I guess the only way you can feel good about yourself is to immerse
>yourself in self praise. You continue to slam, and add nothing...small
>minded?
Er, no.
David Kaye
shows that Ammiano's vote is needed now more than ever. For those people
who were trying to decide whether to vote for Willie or for Tom, the
anti-Tom rhetoric has shown that there will be a lot of nut-cases voting
for Willie Brown. Who wants to vote for a candidate who attracts nuts?
--
(C) 1999 DEADLINE FOR VOTER REGISTRATION for the SF Runoff
David Kaye is November 15. http://www.ammiano4mayor.com
dk at wco.com
Michael Wise
<d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
> I'm so thankful that the rightwingers have taken over this thread. It
> shows that Ammiano's vote is needed now more than ever. For those people
> who were trying to decide whether to vote for Willie or for Tom, the
> anti-Tom rhetoric has shown that there will be a lot of nut-cases voting
> for Willie Brown. Who wants to vote for a candidate who attracts nuts?
As anybody who has actually been reading the threads will know...quite the
opposite is true.
Anybody voicing disapproval on Ammiano or Halinan (yours truly included)
is instantly flamed. With the exception of one far-righter, taunts,
repetitive obscenties, insults, and claims/challenges of physical
superiority...with the threat of physcial violence (behind the anonymous
comfort and safety of a keyboard, of course) and wishes for those in
disagreement to "just die" or to "get raped" have been limited to coming
from those on this group coming to the defense of the two aforementioned
candidtates.
If this is representative of how Ammiano/Halinan supporters interact, then
it is I who must thank you. Any objective person reading these threads can
easily see that despite what these so-called "liberal" and "tolerant'
people say...they're actions and words prove them to be the exact
opposite...thus damaging their cause all the more.
--Mike
Michael Thomas
> Anybody voicing disapproval on Ammiano or Halinan (yours truly included)
> is instantly flamed. With the exception of one far-righter, taunts,
> repetitive obscenties, insults, and claims/challenges of physical
> superiority...with the threat of physcial violence (behind the anonymous
> comfort and safety of a keyboard, of course) and wishes for those in
> disagreement to "just die" or to "get raped" have been limited to coming
> from those on this group coming to the defense of the two aforementioned
> candidtates.
Wrong, str8asshole. All I've said is that if Tom
annoys you, it won't be a complete disaster if
he gets elected.
You have managed to make crystal clear that the
so-called "tolerant" and "liberal" attitude of
some San Franciscans is just as bigoted as your
average str8asshole from Mission Viejo.
But the one thing that is seemingly different
between you and your typical str8asshole from
OC is that you seem to have a lot invested in
my being "fat". What's it to you, str8asshole?
Were you hoping for a date?
> If this is representative of how Ammiano/Halinan supporters interact, then
> it is I who must thank you. Any objective person reading these threads can
> easily see that despite what these so-called "liberal" and "tolerant'
> people say...they're actions and words prove them to be the exact
> opposite...thus damaging their cause all the more.
Louisville Sluggers with green vinyl sinkers
work best, I'm told.
David Kaye
" If this is representative of how Ammiano/Halinan supporters interact, then
" it is I who must thank you.
Ammiano/Hallinan supporters? These are two different groups. Hallinan is
part of Willie Brown's Democratic Party political machine. The only time
I can remember Hallinan bucking that machine was when he hugged Tom on
election victory day. It took the Brown camp by surprise because they
figured he was in Willie's pocket. Knowing that a tiger doesn't change
its stripes and people don't usually change the way they operate, I fully
expect Hallinan to be back in Willie's camp before long.
" Any objective person reading these threads can
" easily see that despite what these so-called "liberal" and "tolerant'
" people say...
It is interesting that Republicans are endorsing the head of the
Democratic party political machine in California, Willie Brown when they
really have more in common with Tom Ammiano, that is: (1) desire to
support small business, (2) neighborhood control, (3) keeping SF a
liveable city, and (4) not selling out SF to the highest chain
store bidder.
The battle for the mayor's office is just one battle: Is SF going to
continue to become more highrise hotels, office buildings, and chain
stores -- OR -- will it be oriented toward the neighborhoods and the
people who live here?
Aside from that issue and integrity in government, Willie and Tom are on
exactly the same page: (1) both support gay marriage, (2) both are
economic liberals, (3) both are in favor of personal liberty.
Clayton Colwell
: Project Chrysalis
: November 30, 1999
: Dear friends,
: A global butterfly healing is underway.
Oh my. I never realized the health of butterflys all over the
world was in such peril.
[654 other lines deleted]
****** Clay Colwell (aka StealthTroll) ***** er...@bga.com ******
* "In the future, we will recognize software crashes as technologically *
* mandated ergonomic rest breaks - and we will pay extra for them." *
* -- Crazy Uncle Joe Hannibal *
Michael Wise
<mi...@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > Anybody voicing disapproval on Ammiano or Halinan (yours truly included)
> > is instantly flamed. With the exception of one far-righter, taunts,
> > repetitive obscenties, insults, and claims/challenges of physical
> > superiority...with the threat of physcial violence (behind the anonymous
> > comfort and safety of a keyboard, of course) and wishes for those in
> > disagreement to "just die" or to "get raped" have been limited to coming
> > from those on this group coming to the defense of the two aforementioned
> > candidtates.
>
> Wrong, str8asshole. All I've said is that if Tom
> annoys you, it won't be a complete disaster if
> he gets elected.
>
On 11/11/99, you wrote:
> You and your fucking papist cronies can all get raped and die
On 11/12/99, you wrote:
> I want you to *die*"
Do you now deny having wrote this? Let me guess, somebody broken into your
house and posted from your computer pretending to be you.
> But the one thing that is seemingly different
> between you and your typical str8asshole from
> OC is that you seem to have a lot invested in
> my being "fat". What's it to you, str8asshole?
> Were you hoping for a date?
I've already told you, I'm taken. Besides, my standards in men (both from
a physical and civil interaction standpoint) are much higher than you are
able to meet. Sorry...you'll have to look elsewhere for a date.
--Mike