Re: Why the era of cheap food is over
Tim May
<bbr...@i-americia.net> wrote:
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1231/p13s01-wogi.html
>
> Food prices worldwide hit record highs in 2006, and all the signs are
> that they will go on rising this year, and for the foreseeable future.
> The era of cheap food, the experts say, is over and we are going to
> have to get used to it. This is easier said than done for millions
> around the world, as evidenced by protests in Mexico over the cost of
> corn tortillas, and in Italy last September about the price of (wheat)
> pasta. Staff writer Peter Ford looks at why.
>
These articles are failing to note the real issue: there are more
wealthy nations and wealthy people and they are successfully buying the
products of other nations. What food once might have remained in some
country like Chile or India or Mexico or Yemen is now able to be
transported to wealthier countries.
Fact is, billions of Third Worlders are basically just getting in the
way of automatied growing and harvesting. As the harvesting technology
which the West used so successfully in the last century spreads to
Third World farms, and as those farms consolidate, and as peasants move
to the cities, the outcome will be clear.
Third World cities are becoming crowded in much the same way, and for
the same reasons, that American cities like Washington, Chicago,
Detroit, Cincinnatti, and New York City became crowded with negro
peasants from the American south.
Food is wildly pentiful in all places in America and Europe that I have
visited. And cheaper, in real dollars, averaged over a range of
products, than I have ever seen. The "Choice" ribeye steaks I buy at
Costco, in plentiful abundance, are less expensive compared to my
income, my assets, and in real dollars than they were 10 years ago,
than they were 30 years ago. And than they would have been, had most
Americans been able to even find them, 50 years ago.
And so it goes for frozen foods, for obscure grains, for a large
variety of items at such mega-marts as Whole Foods, Trader Joe's,
Costco, Wal-Mart, and excellent grocery stores. All of which are
typically a lot more upscale, larger, and better stocked than grocery
stores were 20 years ago.
Peasants, inner city welfare mutants, and other dirt people are
screaming that their subsidized food is less available.
Let them eat cake. The burnoff of useless eaters will be glorious to
behold.
Besides which, global warming will open up the Canadian and Siberian
wildernesses to extensive farming. The melting of the Arctic ice will
make the polar regions a busy shipping area between these two new
breadbaskets.
Equatorial regions and basic brown types will of course be toast. Good
riddance.
--Tim May
Jim
>
Tim,
>
You forgot to mention all the recreational eaters. In times past poor
people used to starve. Here in the US they get fat and suffer from
diabetes and similar ailments.
>
Jim Koch, Cleveland
Tim May
<aa999de3-88fd-4639...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Jim <alc...@en.com> wrote:
I didn't "forget" to mention this, I just wasn't writing an
encyclopedic article on all of the aspects of our economy of abundance.
Indeed, as you note, food is so abundant and so inexpensive (in real
terms, either measured against income or other commodities) that
overeating is endemic in the First World.
My point was that the Chicken Littles screaming "Corn prices are rising
and Mexican peasants can't afford tortillas and the era of cheap food
is over and we're all gonna die!!!" are simply wrong. What will of
course happen is that a lot of Turd Worlders will die, or at least
attempt to sneak into the U.S. or Germany or France.
The delicious part is that the greenhead blissninnines who blocked
nuclear power and pushed for "split wood, not atoms!" are now having to
deal with the global consequences of all of those fossil fuel plants
they connived to have built. And all of their "biofuel" efforts are now
causing more and more corn to be used in ethanol production. Along with
efficient markets and efficient transportation, this means that the
maize which would have been sold from one peasant (the farmer) to
another peasant (the tortilla maker) is now instead being trucked up to
fill Ecofriendlymobiles in Madison and Berkeley and Boston.
We can _outbid_ the Mexican peasant.
--Tim May
Dersu Uzala
tim...@removethis.got.net says...
>Besides which, global warming will open up the Canadian and Siberian
>wildernesses to extensive farming.
>--Tim May
Once the perma-frost thaws, how good is it for crops?
Tim May
<no...@isp.com> wrote:
Excellent. Recall that the great grain-growing regions of North America
and Ukraine were once under permafrost.
And there are studies of this. Here's a characteristic quote:
http://biopact.com/2007/08/climate-change-and-permafrost-thaw.html
"Permafrost collapse in peatlands tends to result in the slumping of
the soil surface and flooding, followed by a complete change in
vegetation, soil structure, and many other important aspects of these
ecosystems, Turetsky said. The study showed that vegetation responds to
the flooding with a boost in productivity. More vegetation sequesters
more carbon away from the atmosphere in plant biomass. ³This is
actually good news from a greenhouse gas perspective,² Turetsky says."
Basically, the next 100 years will see a boom in white peoples of North
America, Russia, and Scandinavian countries. Even some Chinese, though
fighting over Mongolia and Siberia may be intense.
Global warming will also flood the poverty-stricken regions of the
Eastern U.S. and much of the Islamic belt.
Very good news for the billion or so who will survive and prosper.
Very bad news for assorted ragheads, Catholics, reconquistadores,
beaners, and boat people.
--Tim May
Coffee's For Closers
no...@isp.com says...
> In article <020120081926198527%tim...@removethis.got.net>,
> tim...@removethis.got.net says...
>
> >Besides which, global warming will open up the Canadian and Siberian
> >wildernesses to extensive farming.
> Once the perma-frost thaws, how good is it for crops?
My understanding is that, a large portion of northern Canada is
covered by a thick sheet of granite. So, even if the snow and
ice melt, the area would still be impossible to use for farming.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> In article <k6OdndpXi_F67uHa...@comcast.com>,
> no...@isp.com says...
>> In article <020120081926198527%tim...@removethis.got.net>,
>> tim...@removethis.got.net says...
>>
>>> Besides which, global warming will open up the Canadian and Siberian
>>> wildernesses to extensive farming.
>
>
>> Once the perma-frost thaws, how good is it for crops?
>
>
> My understanding is that, a large portion of northern Canada is
> covered by a thick sheet of granite. So, even if the snow and
> ice melt, the area would still be impossible to use for farming.
But granite countertops should be even cheaper than they are now.
Robert Sturgeon
<tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
(snips)
>We can _outbid_ the Mexican peasant.
More importantly, the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, et al
can out bid the Mexican peasant. And, thanks to the central
banks, there is a hell of a lot more money chasing that
food. And the American farmer has been consolidating so
long that there aren't nearly as many of them left, and they
are no longer willing/able to grow food at such thin margins
that they barely survive. I recently heard about a large
grower of processing tomatoes (a very important crop in
California) who, while being offered slightly more money
than last year, ordered his foreman to start discing up all
the fields previously prepared for tomatoes -- right in
front of the cannery rep, who was shocked both that the
offer (for more money) was spurned and that the grower would
be so, uh, brusk with him. Later the grower took the
witness (my informant on the matter) aside and apologized
for the display, saying, something like, "Well, we have to
get it through to those people that times have changed.
They aren't in the driver's seat anymore. We are." As
background material for the above exchange, some
"environmentalists" got a federal judge in Fresno to
radically reduce the amount of water available to farmers in
the area that tomato grower was in, driving up the value of
water to unheard of levels and making all previous economic
calculations totally obsolete. Many farmers who had cotton
as one of their major crops will no longer grow any of it at
all. California cotton, which has for decades been an
important crop in the world market, is now approaching a
state of collapse -- all because of better prices for
alternative crops and the water shortage.
All the above proves is that stability and reliability of
economic factors is an illusion. In fact, the more
stability you THINK we have, the more unstable the real
situation is going to be. And the change from one,
previously dominant, condition to the next can be a real
bitch. It doesn't matter whether it's the failure of the
unionized auto industry in the midwest, the cotton business
in California, or anything else. When the returns no longer
justify the costs, things change.
So, is the era of cheap food over? Yes, it is. And it's
about time, goddammit!
--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Guy Bannis
Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> Third World cities are becoming crowded in much the same way, and for
> the same reasons, that American cities like Washington, Chicago,
> Detroit, Cincinnatti, and New York City became crowded with negro
> peasants from the American south.
<snicker> You really had to stretch for that one. Doesn't quite work
though.
hot-ham-a...@hotmail.com
> In article
> <aa999de3-88fd-4639-97d5-0158f6534...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Maybe Amory Lovins could write, "Unintended Green Consequences."
Steve Fenwick
They are much, much cheaper than they use to be. But they are still not
a very good general-purpose material for kitchen countertops.
Steve
--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
Frank Rizzo
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
FUckin a right.....
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
No?
My understanding is that northern cities. perhaps especially in the
midwest, had a huge influx of former slaves folowing the Civil War, due
also to the accelerating pace of the industrial revolution during that
time period.
Tim is saying that third-word cities may experience similar population
jumps due to mechanization of rural jobs and due to increased
manufacturing in urban areas.
Why is that a stretch?
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
Guy Bannis
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In misc.survivalism Guy Bannis <g...@ether.net> wrote:
> > In article <020120081926198527%tim...@removethis.got.net>,
> > Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> > > Third World cities are becoming crowded in much the same way, and for
> > > the same reasons, that American cities like Washington, Chicago,
> > > Detroit, Cincinnatti, and New York City became crowded with negro
> > > peasants from the American south.
>
> > <snicker> You really had to stretch for that one. Doesn't quite work
> > though.
>
> No?
>
> My understanding is that northern cities. perhaps especially in the
> midwest, had a huge influx of former slaves folowing the Civil War, due
> also to the accelerating pace of the industrial revolution during that
> time period.
>
> Tim is saying that third-word cities may experience similar population
> jumps due to mechanization of rural jobs and due to increased
> manufacturing in urban areas.
>
> Why is that a stretch?
The stretch is to tie a desire for job stability and higher income with
a racist comment.
E.g., there's a difference between "peasant" and "slave" and between
"third world" and "negro."
Tim May
Guy Bannis <g...@ether.net> wrote:
>
> The stretch is to tie a desire for job stability and higher income with
> a racist comment.
>
> E.g., there's a difference between "peasant" and "slave" and between
> "third world" and "negro."
The negroes who moved in very large numbers from the South to the
North, from mostly rural settings to inner city settings, were not
"slaves" anytime in the 50-80 years prior to this large migration.
Hint: the bulk of the migration happened 1925-1960.
It is not "racism" to point out the obvious fact that many Northern
cities now have urban cores that are overwhelmingly made up of negroes.
And, by the way, most of them are NOT achieving either job stability or
higher income.
(In fact, many of them bought the shuck and jive that the big cities
were where the jobs were, only to arrive in the 50s and 60s to find
most job development was becoming suburbanized and in large industrial
parks and Silicon Valley-like communities. The simultaneous "Great
Society" social programs of the 1960s created the cradle-to-grave
welfare mess the inner cities are still dealing with, with 4
generations of negro welfare recipients, strong incentives for the
break up of traditional father-based families, strong incentives for
young negro girls to become pregnant and thus get their own "cribs,"
and strong incenntives for young negro males to become predators.)
The same decline in rural farming, via consolidation to mechanized
production and shifts in storage and shipping, is happening through the
Third World. And the same inner city gang and crime problems are making
many inner cities unlivable. The wealthy are moving to the suburbs,
even in the Third World.
The same migration patterns seen in the Rural South --> Urban North
transition are now happening in India, Brazil, Pakistan, China, etc.
Shantytowns and favelas are expanding in Rio de Janeiro, in Karachi, in
Delhi....
--Tim May
Geoff Miller
Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> writes:
[granite countertops]
> They are much, much cheaper than they use to be. But they
> are still not a very good general-purpose material for
> kitchen countertops.
Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
well as attractive.
Geoff
--
"Mommy, can ladies be taken apart?"
"No, son, why do you ask?"
"Because Daddy said he wanted to screw
the ass off the lady next door."
Too_Many_Tools
> In article <guy-F0980C.09243104012...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
The biggest migration also included whites...which far outnumbered
blacks.
People move to where the jobs are...black, white, Hispanic, Republican
or Democrat.
Take a good look at the current demographics of the United States and
you will see similar movements now.
As energy prices increase while wages decrease, you will see new
migration patterns forming.
TMT
Tim May
<geo...@lava.net> wrote:
> Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> writes:
>
> [granite countertops]
>
> > They are much, much cheaper than they use to be. But they
> > are still not a very good general-purpose material for
> > kitchen countertops.
>
>
> Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
>
> It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
> well as attractive.
Granite is not non-porous, which is why sealants are used.
Quartz is non-porous. Perhaps you were thinking of this.
I could refer you to the usual online sources, but you would make a
snarky comment about people who need to use online sources to learn
what you have always known.
--Tim May
Ciccio
news:040120081157076788%tim...@removethis.got.net...
>> Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
>>
>> It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
>> well as attractive.
>
> Granite is not non-porous, which is why sealants are used.
Well, you're both right sort of...Granite counters when installed are
non-porous. It is so mostly due to the polishing, along with some sealant.
Very black dense granite may be non-porous with only polishing and no
sealant. The only disadvantage I can think of for granite counters is the
maintenance of resealing. Although that is required infrequently. Like every
1-5 years, depending on the quality/density of the stone.
Ciccio
Steve Pope
>It is not "racism" to point out the obvious fact that many Northern
>cities now have urban cores that are overwhelmingly made up of negroes.
It would be racist to attribute this to anything other than
white flight, i.e. racist behavior by whites.
S.
Robert Sturgeon
My tile counter tops are 27 years old and still don't need
any maintenance beyond routine cleaning -- and that's only
if you're fussy. I don't see why granite would be better.
Tim May
<spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
Rational behavior, not a belief that some races are innately less
capable than other races.
I saw what happened in D.C. I saw what happened to my aunt and uncle's
property in the near-suburb of Bladensburg/Cheverly, Maryland. The high
school she worked in flipped over a 5-8 year period from being
overwhelmingly caucasian to being overwhelming negroid. (I attended
Prince Georges County schools briefly in the 1960, before we escaped to
Fairfax County, over in Virginia.
My aunt witnessed this stuff below first-hand. Her high school became
unsafe for whites and white staffers, with knifings and drugs endemic.
"In the late 1960s, Bladensburg and Fairmont Heights high schools began
to be integrated for the first time after a period of resisting the
1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision. These efforts were prior to
the 1973 court-mandated busing program. Busing was an attempt to
integrate students from the Bladensburg/Fairmont
Heights/Cheverly/Palmer Park areas. Several racial incidents at
Bladensburg in 1969 and 1970 were large enough to draw an editorial in
the Washington Post calling for calm. During that period, classes were
formed in Asian and Black Studies to attempt to provide more
understanding between students. While Bladensburg was almost 100%
Caucasian during that period, the school is now 97% African-American
and Hispanic due to the changing population of Prince George's County."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladensburg_High_School
My aunt eventually joined her son and my other cousins and uncles and
aunts in the area around Fredericksburg, Virginia. Much safer.
As far as I know, all of my Maryland relatives have now left Maryland
as the negro regions expand outward via housing subsidies, busing, and
declining property values.
--Tim May
Guy Bannis
Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> The negroes who moved in very large numbers from the South to the
> North, from mostly rural settings to inner city settings, were not
> "slaves" anytime in the 50-80 years prior to this large migration.
> Hint: the bulk of the migration happened 1925-1960.
Hint: the migration was not limited to blacks from the South but was
true of rural populations moving to urban centers in general.
> It is not "racism" to point out the obvious fact that many Northern
> cities now have urban cores that are overwhelmingly made up of negroes.
> And, by the way, most of them are NOT achieving either job stability or
> higher income.
>
> (In fact, many of them bought the shuck and jive that the big cities
You just confirmed my point.
RWW
Coffee is mistaken. Only half of Northern Canada is covered with
granite. The other half is former dental floss farms.
So Granite and Dental Floss farmers should prosper, along with
the associated commodities traders.
Steve Fenwick
geo...@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:
> Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> writes:
>
> [granite countertops]
>
> > They are much, much cheaper than they use to be. But they
> > are still not a very good general-purpose material for
> > kitchen countertops.
>
>
> Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
>
> It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
> well as attractive.
Granite actually is porous, if unsealed, and some (many?) cleaners can
strip the sealant, so they need to be re-sealed. Granite can and will
stain; some stains may require substances like acetone or lacquer
thinner (on a surface you're later prepping food on!) to remove. The
level of maintenance required (regular sealing, spill cleaning, etc.)
indicates that it is not a practical material for a surface that is
abused (e.g., kitchen counters). Attractive, yes.
But another factor is that granite (and marble) are *cold*. They feel
cold when touched.
Soapstone (steatite) is a much better material, but is still more rarely
used in residential applications. It is commonly used in chem labs, as
its non-porous nature makes it safer for cleaning up chemical spills. It
is also much softer, so it scratches more easily.
Too_Many_Tools
> In article <flmd1r$3s...@blue.rahul.net>, Steve Pope
>
> <spop...@speedymail.org> wrote:
Declining property values are what drives this.
Ever been in a POOR WHITE area...same problems.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> In article <flmd1r$3s...@blue.rahul.net>, Steve Pope
>
> <spop...@speedymail.org> wrote:
Declining property values are what drives this.
strabo
Racist behavior? Following the SCOTUS busing decision, falling
real estate values and increased Black crime made conditions
unlivable for Whites. Those who could left.
And then there is the welfare attraction syndrome. Washington DC
was 90% White up until the 1970s. When welfare was offered Blacks
poured into the city. The Whites left. Racism? I'd call it common
sense survival.
Prior to the 1970s and with the exception of the NYC boroughs,
parts of Chicago and LA, American cities were *mostly* White.
The only Blacks one would find would be working in low level
jobs, or, in a section of the city traditionally Black.
Today, most US cities have a high Black to White ratio which is
reflected in the almost all Black political and administrative
functions. Poor administration and corruption are commonplace
and the crime rates are many times higher than the surrounding
suburbs.
Call it what you will, for whatever reason the problems are rooted
in the existence of the Black population.
> S.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> Soapstone (steatite) is a much better material, but is still more rarely
> used in residential applications. It is commonly used in chem labs, as
> its non-porous nature makes it safer for cleaning up chemical spills. It
> is also much softer, so it scratches more easily.
Another good stone for counters is slate.
I once had a marble countertop in my kitchen. It was a piece which had
been cut more than a hundred years before, recycled from the lobby of an
old office building in Downtown Boston. It was truly beautiful. But it
was suboptimal in many ways for a countertop material.
Jerry
"strabo" <str...@flashlight.net> wrote in message
news:11995297...@sp12lax.superfeed.net...
According to 200 census information 42% of Chicago and 73.5% of Illinois is
white. I would consider 95% of the city safe to travel in during the
daylight hours, 80% at night.
http://www.hellochicago.com/Census.Cfm
I think the administration part still works pretty well here, although there
probably has been some decline over the years. There is the corruption
mentioned above, but that has always been here in Chicago. In recent years
there have been more people going to trial and being jailed for corruption
in Chicago and Illinois than ever before. The corruption is still there,
it's just hidden better and exists at higher levels I guess.
These maps below show the concentration of whites moving more towards the
more expensive parts of the city, the downtown and river north areas, as
well as the more expensive suburban areas. The maps could be deceiving
however, as Chicago has always been a city of neighborhoods where certain
ethnic groups congregate, i.e.. Chinatown, Greektown, Little Italy,
Ukrainian Village, etc.
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/maps/citywhitechange.jpg
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/maps/regionwhitechange.jpg
In recent years there have been some new additions, or at least they have
been recognized because there is now some signage for the highway exits,
Korea town is an example. If I had to take a guess, I would guess that the
population of whites has gone up in the last ten years, due to the increase
of European immigrants, especially from Poland. Chicago boasts the second
highest Polish population, second to Warsaw.
Geoff Miller
Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> writes:
> Granite is not non-porous, which is why sealants are used.
> Quartz is non-porous. Perhaps you were thinking of this.
No, I honestly didn't know that granite was porous. It isn't
something that impacts me on a day-to-day basis.
> I could refer you to the usual online sources, but you would
> make a snarky comment about people who need to use online
> sources to learn what you have always known.
Tim, you make asking a simple question sound like the most
hideous crime ever committed.
Why would it be wrong simply to ask somebody something, despite
it being possible to find the answer using a search engine? I
didn't need the answer in a hurry. My asking it here might lead
to worthwhile exchanges, and perhaps some useful (or at least
interesting) serendipitous information in the bargain.
It occurs to me that perhaps if you had more day-to-day
experience engaging other people, there's an outside chance
that you'd acquire discernable social skills. That's a long
shot, I realize, but it's a possibility nevertheless, and one
you might consider.
If you're willing and able to answer somebody's question, then
just answer the mo-fo -- and without trying to take your customary
pound of flesh in the process. If you're unwilling to do that,
then simply *shutting the fuck up* is always a viable alternative.
That question wasn't even directed at you.
Geoff
--
"Stick THAT in your theory and flap around like
a chicken in heat." -- Angel Of Mathematics
Geoff Miller
Ciccio <franc...@comcast.net> writes:
[countertops: don't take 'em for granite]
> Well, you're both right sort of...
"It's a dessert topping *and* a spermicidal foam!"
> The only disadvantage I can think of for granite
> counters is the maintenance of resealing.
I've never investigated getting granite countertops,
and I only know one household that has them. The
need for any sort of maintenance hs never come up
in conversation. I'll be interested to ask my friends
about this when I see them later this month.
Veronique
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:07:40 -0800, "Ciccio"
>
>
>
> >"Tim May" <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
> >news:040120081157076788%tim...@removethis.got.net...
>
> >>> Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
>
> >>> It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
> >>> well as attractive.
>
> >> Granite is not non-porous, which is why sealants are used.
>
> >Well, you're both right sort of...Granite counters when installed are
> >non-porous. It is so mostly due to the polishing, along with some sealant.
> >Very black dense granite may be non-porous with only polishing and no
> >sealant. The only disadvantage I can think of for granite counters is the
> >maintenance of resealing. Although that is required infrequently. Like every
> >1-5 years, depending on the quality/density of the stone.
>
> My tile counter tops are 27 years old and still don't need
> any maintenance beyond routine cleaning -- and that's only
> if you're fussy. I don't see why granite would be better.
It seems like yearly resealing would be an annoyance. Since granite
countertops are now being shipped from China and offered in every
"high-end" low-end construction, I imagine something new will be
taking their place to distinguish the truly exotic from the wanna-be
middle class kitchen.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Tim May
<geo...@lava.net> wrote:
> Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> writes:
>
> > Granite is not non-porous, which is why sealants are used.
>
> > Quartz is non-porous. Perhaps you were thinking of this.
>
> No, I honestly didn't know that granite was porous. It isn't
> something that impacts me on a day-to-day basis.
Then why did you announce that granite is non-porous and is good for
countertops? Is it your habit to just opine on things you know nothing
about? No need to answer.
>
> Tim, you make asking a simple question sound like the most
> hideous crime ever committed.
You did not ask a question, you told us that grainite is non-porous and
so makes a good countertop.
BTW, I certainly did not have to Google to know that granite has some
real negatives. I knew this from watching water get "wicked into" a dry
piece of granite (most varieties, not all). I also heard discussions of
this on "This Old House," "Blog Cabin," and other shows.
When I was redoing part of my kitchen, I looked into replacing the tile
countertop and learned much about granite, Corian, slate, tile,
soapstone, and whatnot.
--Tim May
Tim May
<7f4d6db4-b873-4180...@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It seems like yearly resealing would be an annoyance. Since granite
> countertops are now being shipped from China and offered in every
> "high-end" low-end construction, I imagine something new will be
> taking their place to distinguish the truly exotic from the wanna-be
> middle class kitchen.
Friends of mine who have granite don't reseal yearly. This is one of
those "recommended maintenance" things designed by vendors to reduce
complaints, service calls, and limit liability. ("Did you reseal with
our Approved Sealant, available at our store? You mean you missed a
year in 2004? Well, no wonder it cracked!")
There are good reasons why granite is not used in biological or
chemical labs, for example. Not only is porous, to varying degrees, but
the sealant is typically an organic compound which may oxidize
(rancidify) or interact with other things.
Me, I'm happy with 30-year-old glazed tile. Unlike granite, glazing
(glassing) is fully waterproof. The grout is not, and absorbs water,
stains, etc. Which is why I periodically scrub with Comet or Ajax, or
something else with chlorine in it.
Besides, I would never place food directly on a countertop. This is
what cutting boards and blocks are for. Better on the knives, too.
Some years ago I mail-ordered a 3-inch thick, 14-inch diameter Boos
cutting block. Very solid. Wood has natural germicidal properties, and,
in any case, it's easy to clean and sanitize the block by lightly
scrubbing it and then brushing it with a lemon or with some coarse salt
while damp. I periodically reseal/treat it with butcher block oil
(mineral oil, which will not rancidify the way vegetable or animal oil
will). This keeps it from absorbing water and then drying and cracking.
And the increased height raises the cutting and vegetable prep area to
a more comfortable height for me (6'1"--U.S. countertop heights have
remained standardized at a height that was comfortable for 5'5" tall
women in 1930).
--Tim May
Geoff Miller
Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> writes:
: No, I honestly didn't know that granite was porous. It isn't
: something that impacts me on a day-to-day basis.
> Then why did you announce that granite is non-porous and is
> good for countertops? Is it your habit to just opine on things
> you know nothing about? No need to answer.
But I will anyway, just to piss you off.
I didn't "announce" or "opine." I related what any reasonable,
non-hostile reading would've communicated was my impression based
on personal experience and observation.
As I said in another post, friends of mine have granite countertops
and have never mentioned any disadvantages with them, or any need
for maintenance. Its reasonable to suspect that they'd have men-
tioned that sort of thing in passing at some point, because we've
talked extensively about their remodeling of their house and the
choices they made in the process.
I've eaten many casual meals while sitting on a stool at their
counter, and have never observed any particular tension from my
hosts over the occassional minor spill. That, and the smooth
appearance and feel of the surface, plus the fact that granite
is a popular material for countertops, leads to the reasonable
conclusion that it's a good choice for that application.
> You did not ask a question, you told us that grainite is non-
> porous and so makes a good countertop.
Yes, I did; pay attention. Steve said granite wasn't a very good
material for countertops. I asked him (note: him, not you) why
not. (Yes, this is Usenet and anybody can respond to anything.
And yet, you're acting imposed upon to have to answer my question,
even though you didn't have to respond at all.)
> BTW, I certainly did not have to Google to know that granite has
> some real negatives. I knew this from watching water get "wicked
> into" a dry piece of granite (most varieties, not all). I also
> heard discussions of this on "This Old House," "Blog Cabin," and
> other shows.
Ah. So my real crime is failing to have the same personal exper-
iences as you, or to watch the same television programs that you
have. Once again, we mere mortals get an object lesson to the
effect that Tim May is a living benchmark, the very reference from
which all human experience is to be gauged. Gotcha. Thanks for the
reminder. I sometimes forget myself and lose sight of my lowly place
in the greater scheme of things.
Arrogant fuckhead...
> When I was redoing part of my kitchen, I looked into replacing
> the tile countertop and learned much about granite, Corian,
> slate, tile, soapstone, and whatnot.
Well, there you go. I've never redone a kitchen, and so as yet
I've had no particular reason to delve into such things.
Coffee's For Closers
F0980C.092...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
g...@ether.net says...
What percentage of modern-day peasants and slaves are currently
living in developed countries?
Which countries are still working on mechanisation of farming,
leading to large number of displaced rural folks moving to the
cities?
--
Want Privacy?
http://www.MinistryOfPrivacy.com/
Veronique
> In article
> And the increased height raises the cutting and vegetable prep area to
> a more comfortable height for me (6'1"--U.S. countertop heights have
> remained standardized at a height that was comfortable for 5'5" tall
> women in 1930).
I was just discussing countertop height with a rather tall friend, and
"standardization." I was the kitchen of a friend's grandmother in
Wyoming, which her husband had built for her. She was a tiny woman,
and it was like walking into hobbit house: all the countertops were a
good six inches shorter than standard. And another friend, who put in
a very nice kitchen in his Victorian up near Golden Gate Park, had all
the counters standardized for him and his girlfriend, both tall
people. Hanging out there I felt as if I were the hobbit. But it's
nice to optimize your space: why should anyone accept "standard" if
"standard" is, uh, substandard as your personal workspace?
Tim May
<e25c6368-fe2a-4736...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
For resale value. For ROI on the needed modifications.
As simple as that.
'Nuff said.
--Tim May
axlq
Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
surface, but then it's hard to clean.
Coincidentally, we are embarking on a kitchen remodeling and one of the
unsettled questions was what countertop material to use. Currently it's
Formica. I know that the three most popular materials (besides Formica)
are Corian, Zodiaq (fused quartz), and granite.
Corian is most durable but scratches easily, although the scratches
are also easily polished or sanded out. It is also the most
economical material, and has the bouns that the sink can be molded
into the counter as one piece with no seams.
Zodiaq is basically a solid non-porous block of fused quartz
crystals, maintenance-free but somehow fails to achieve a natural
look that stone should have. It can be made any shape but otherwise
it's the same as granite.
Granite requires occasional maintenance, it's the most expensive
option, but looks beautiful.
I haven't seen marble countertops for kitchens, only bathrooms.
-A
Steve Pope
>Coincidentally, we are embarking on a kitchen remodeling and one of the
>unsettled questions was what countertop material to use. Currently it's
>Formica. I know that the three most popular materials (besides Formica)
>are Corian, Zodiaq (fused quartz), and granite.
Does anyone use tile (e.g. enameled ceramic tile) anymore?
Steve
Jerry
I remember when I built my workbench in the basement workshop of my new
house. My father-in-law asked me if it wasn't a bit too tall. I told him it
might be for him, but it was my workbench. He looked up at me and gave me
that look, that now he understood :)
Tim May
<Je...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> "Tim May" <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote in message
> news:050120081821249191%tim...@removethis.got.net...
> > For resale value. For ROI on the needed modifications.
> >
> > As simple as that.
> >
> > 'Nuff said.
> >
>
> I remember when I built my workbench in the basement workshop of my new
> house. My father-in-law asked me if it wasn't a bit too tall. I told him it
> might be for him, but it was my workbench. He looked up at me and gave me
> that look, that now he understood :)
Workbenches are a) smaller and less extensive than entire kitchen
countertops are, and b) will usually (not always) be taken to a new
house.
Not many woodworkers leave their Sjobergs or their homebuilt benches
for the next occupants of a house.
Significant lowering or raising of kitchen countertops will be
expensive in terms of resale, and even for initial installation of
appliances.
Minor lowering is a "Why bother?" issue.
For me to have a countertop that acts for me the way conventional
36-37-inch countertop acts for a woman 5'6" tall, the countertop would
have to be 43 inches high.
And installation of ranges and dishwashers would be problematic.
Cooktops, no.
Try selling such a house.
("Seller will credit the buyer $35K to reduce the height of the
countertop and reinstall the countertop, replumb the sink and repair
the backsplash and wall areas.")
--Tim May
Tim May
<spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
At least two of us stated that we do, Sturgeon and myself.
This is what you lefties get by killfiling us.
--Tim May
Ciccio
> In article <flpei8$2g...@blue.rahul.net>, Steve Pope
> > Does anyone use tile (e.g. enameled ceramic tile) anymore?
> At least two of us stated that we do, Sturgeon and myself.
Me three.
Ciccio
Peter Lawrence
> In article <flofbj$g4k$4...@reader2.panix.com>,
> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
>> Another good stone for counters is slate.
>
> Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
> if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
> surface, but then it's hard to clean.
>
> Coincidentally, we are embarking on a kitchen remodeling and one of the
> unsettled questions was what countertop material to use. Currently it's
> Formica. I know that the three most popular materials (besides Formica)
> are Corian, Zodiaq (fused quartz), and granite.
>
> Corian is most durable but scratches easily, although the scratches
> are also easily polished or sanded out. It is also the most
> economical material, and has the bouns that the sink can be molded
> into the counter as one piece with no seams.
Our kitchen countertop is Corian and we have had it for over 15 years.
It has aged nicely. It does scratch easily, but the scratch marks are
*VERY* shallow and very hard to notice. You basically have to look at
the Corian at precisely the right angle to notice the scratch marks,
otherwise it looks like new. It hasn't been stained, nor faded, nor
discolored in any way. It's also very easy to clean. It's a quality
product.
- Peter
Guy Bannis
In this entire thread, few have brought up the question, how durable
does your kitchen countertop need to be, how nonporous, etc.
I'm thinking that for just about everyone here, granite will work just
fine. So will Corian, formica, tile, butcher block, etc.
In other words, what are you guys arguing about?
SMS
Granite is actually the cheapest option. You just need to go the right
place to buy it. Don't go to Home Depot, Expo Design, Lowe's, or a
highbrow kitchen remodeling center. Go to a store like Best Tile
("http://www.besttilesf.com/"), or one of the other stores selling
granite from China.
I just remodeled a rental unit and put in granite counters in the
kitchen and three bathrooms because it was the least expensive option,
and looks good.
Steve Pope
><spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>> Does anyone use tile (e.g. enameled ceramic tile) anymore?
>At least two of us stated that we do, Sturgeon and myself.
Noted. I think Sturgeon said his was decades old, and that
your tile counters are not exactly recent. The question I
had in mind is whether there are still craftsman who work
with the stuff. (I suspect the answer is probably still yes.)
>This is what you lefties get by killfiling us.
Ha. This leftist doesn't killfile individuals. (Sometimes,
I kill crossposts, when they get too thick, but haven't done
that lately.)
Steve
Tim May
<spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> ><spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>
> >> Does anyone use tile (e.g. enameled ceramic tile) anymore?
>
> >At least two of us stated that we do, Sturgeon and myself.
>
> Noted. I think Sturgeon said his was decades old, and that
> your tile counters are not exactly recent. The question I
> had in mind is whether there are still craftsman who work
> with the stuff. (I suspect the answer is probably still yes.)
a. Kitchen tiles still occupy prominent aisles in Home Depot, Lowe's,
etc. So one presumes they are still being bought.
b. DIY Network, a cable network, has entire episodes devoted to do it
yourself ("DIY") laying of kitchen tile.
c. Do the math.
>
> >This is what you lefties get by killfiling us.
>
> Ha. This leftist doesn't killfile individuals. (Sometimes,
> I kill crossposts, when they get too thick, but haven't done
> that lately.)
And yet you completely missed the comments from me, about my tile, and
only belatedly caught Sturgeon's comment. (If you'd caught it earlier,
why did you ask ""Does anyone use tile...anymore?")
I take it for granite, so to speak, that mere tile or Corian is now
passe. Were I building a new house, I would bow to the ignorati for
purely market reasons and spec granite or some other trendizoid
material ("anodized stainless, with a subtle whiff of the East").
We now live, unfortunately, in a "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"
world, where trannies and coloreds set the standards.
Thankfully, the coming deep recession will sweep away most of this
riff-raff, most of this fascination with the style selections of
queers, dykes, and welfare mutants.
--Tim May
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Ah. So my real crime is failing to have the same personal exper-
>iences as you, or to watch the same television programs that you
>have. Once again, we mere mortals get an object lesson to the
>effect that Tim May is a living benchmark
Based on the last pictures of Tim, he is more the size of a Landmark,
rather than a benchmark.....
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
SMS
> Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
>> <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>
>>> Does anyone use tile (e.g. enameled ceramic tile) anymore?
>
>> At least two of us stated that we do, Sturgeon and myself.
>
> Noted. I think Sturgeon said his was decades old, and that
> your tile counters are not exactly recent. The question I
> had in mind is whether there are still craftsman who work
> with the stuff. (I suspect the answer is probably still yes.)
You can still get it installed, but it's very labor intensive, and hence
expensive.
For kitchens and bathrooms it's fallen out of favor with consumers
because it's such a pain to clean between tiles.
Contractors and builders love granite because a) it's very cheap, b)
it's relatively easy to install, and c) enough people think that it's
expensive that they can boast about "granite counter tops" as if they've
gone to enormous expense to upgrade the counters to some exotic material.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> In article <flofbj$g4k$4...@reader2.panix.com>,
> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
> >Another good stone for counters is slate.
> Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
> if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
> surface, but then it's hard to clean.
Do you really mean "rough, unfinished", or do you mean a dull sheen?
Golden California Girls
>
> Based on the last pictures of Tim, he is more the size of a Landmark,
> rather than a benchmark.....
Saying that a hummer is a tight squeeze for him ...
Gunner Asch
Id say a hummer is the only thing he can get, as no hooker would be
willing to have him crawl on top, (like crawling under a 1 ton van
with no jack stands) or could spread wide enough to get on top.
Geoff Miller
<EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> writes:
[slate]
> Do you really mean "rough, unfinished", or do you mean
> a dull sheen?
Like Martin?
Queenie
wrote:
>Why not? This is the first time I've seen anyone say that.
>
>It seems to me that it'd be ideal, since it's non-porous as
>well as attractive.
Granite countertops soak in water around the sink area, and darken up,
particularly around the faucet and spray nozzle, where it's pretty
much always wet. Here, the countertops next to the cooktop have
darkened from contact with oils of various sorts over the past few
years. That started even right after they were sealed, and now I
doubt there is any way to leech the oil out without some sort of long
process.
I don't mind it, though. The color is a medium tone overall (Juparana
Fantastico, I love that, especially the little red bits of garnet), so
it's not immediately noticeable and it's just a work surface that I
don't have to worry about. It cleans up and polishes nicely.
One thing about granite that's hard to beat: its beauty. The colors,
markings and iridescences of available in granite slabs coming from
countries all over the world are a natural wonder.
Marble, by the way, is also porous and stains easily, so it's not used
in kitchens much anymore. Marble is plentiful in Greece, and not
considered particularly special. The kitchen counters in many older
houses were made of marble (as were the stairs, the verandas, and
bathroom floors.) That was when a kitchen was considered utilitarian,
a work room rather than a showroom, so nobody cared about the
countertops, for show. The marble in my grandparents' kitchen wasn't
polished but rather rough and often stained. I was taught that stains
come out of the marble with lemon juice. My mother brought back a
large, thick slab of marble that was the kitchen counter in my
grandmother's kitchen. That slab of marble is now the headstone
marking my parents' gravesite.
~Queenie
From the grave of Ezekial Aikle in East Dalhousie Cemetery, Nova
Scotia:
Here lies
Ezekial Aikle
Age 102
The Good
Die Young.
Steve Fenwick
spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
We have tile here, which is why we have soapstone elsewhere. Tile is
durable, yes, but the grout is a PITA to clean.
Steve
--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
Steve Fenwick
<e25c6368-fe2a-4736...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
Resale value. Selling a house with an odd kitchen, countertop height
included, will be more difficult than selling one with standard
dimension counters/fixtures, because the standard dimensions will fit
the broadest range of buyers.
Same with unusual surfaces and colors--remove all personality from a
house before selling it is normal.
axlq
<EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
>In misc.survivalism axlq <ax...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> In article <flofbj$g4k$4...@reader2.panix.com>,
>> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
>> >Another good stone for counters is slate.
>
>> Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
>> if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
>> surface, but then it's hard to clean.
>
>Do you really mean "rough, unfinished", or do you mean a dull sheen?
I mean rough unfinished, like the slate roofing tiles so ubiquitous in
Germany. They seem to acquire a sheen all by themselves.
My Mom tells me that when she was a little girl in Germany (prior to
WWII), students didn't have paper; they wrote on slate tablets with
slate pencils (slate on slate makes white marks that you can rub
off easily). She said she even had a slate tablet with grid-lines
carved into it for use as "graph paper".
Slate might make great floor tiles or wall tiles, but I don't know
if I'd want it for countertops.
-A
Veronique
> In article <flr011$8q...@reader2.panix.com>,
>
> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
> >In misc.survivalism axlq <a...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >> In article <flofbj$g4...@reader2.panix.com>,
> >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
> >> >Another good stone for counters is slate.
>
> >> Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
> >> if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
> >> surface, but then it's hard to clean.
>
> >Do you really mean "rough, unfinished", or do you mean a dull sheen?
>
> I mean rough unfinished, like the slate roofing tiles so ubiquitous in
> Germany. They seem to acquire a sheen all by themselves.
>
> My Mom tells me that when she was a little girl in Germany (prior to
> WWII), students didn't have paper; they wrote on slate tablets with
> slate pencils (slate on slate makes white marks that you can rub
> off easily). She said she even had a slate tablet with grid-lines
> carved into it for use as "graph paper".
This was very common in earlier times and one-room schoolhouses; I
remember buying a slate with a real slate stylus at Williamsburg "just
like the olden days" before paper became relatively cheap and
available.
Julian Macassey
> In article <flr011$8qe$2...@reader2.panix.com>,
> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
>>In misc.survivalism axlq <ax...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>> In article <flofbj$g4k$4...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote:
>>> >Another good stone for counters is slate.
>>
>>> Slate is good for roof tiles, but it scratches. It isn't a problem
>>> if you don't polish it, and can live with a rough unfinished
>>> surface, but then it's hard to clean.
>>
>>Do you really mean "rough, unfinished", or do you mean a dull sheen?
>
> I mean rough unfinished, like the slate roofing tiles so ubiquitous in
> Germany. They seem to acquire a sheen all by themselves.
Slate roof tiles - Usually from Wales - are common in
Britain. They last forever. They are also found on fancy pre-WWII
houses in Hancock Park, Losd Angeles. I have also seen them on
Long Island, NY.
>
> My Mom tells me that when she was a little girl in Germany (prior to
> WWII), students didn't have paper; they wrote on slate tablets with
> slate pencils (slate on slate makes white marks that you can rub
> off easily). She said she even had a slate tablet with grid-lines
> carved into it for use as "graph paper".
I had a slate as a child. You could use slate penicls or
chalk on them. Also, the best blackboards are slate and the fancy
billiard tables use a slate bed.
>
> Slate might make great floor tiles or wall tiles, but I don't know
> if I'd want it for countertops.
Commonly used as counter tops in chemistry labs.
--
People are tired of the Bush administration, with its partisanship
and incompetence. Economist 20 Dec 2007
Steve Fenwick
Julian Macassey <jul...@tele.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:44:40 +0000 (UTC), axlq <ax...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > In article <flr011$8qe$2...@reader2.panix.com>,
> > Slate might make great floor tiles or wall tiles, but I don't know
> > if I'd want it for countertops.
>
> Commonly used as counter tops in chemistry labs.
I've heard of soapstone being used for chem labs, but not slate.
Steve Fenwick
have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save
yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own,
nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God
to spare you one moment. -- And consider here more particularly,
Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God. If it were only
the wrath of man, though it were of the most potent prince, it would be
comparatively little to be regarded. The wrath of kings is very much
dreaded, especially of absolute monarchs, who have the possessions and
lives of their subjects wholly in their power, to be disposed of at
their mere will. Prov. 20:2. "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a
lion: Whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul." The
subject that very much enrages an arbitrary prince, is liable to suffer
the most extreme torments that human art can invent, or human power can
inflict. But the greatest earthly potentates in their greatest majesty
and strength, and when clothed in their greatest terrors, are but
feeble, despicable worms of the dust, in comparison of the great and
almighty Creator and King of heaven and earth. It is but little that
they c