OT: Vancouver
Todd Michel McComb
topics. I swear I got better advice here than in the DC group, for
instance, on DC dining.
Anyway, I am trying to arrange a vacation in the Vancouver area,
but am having difficulties making choices on where exactly to stay.
I'd like to spend some time on Vancouver Island, and do some good
dayhikes, but I am not sure how to balance that with dining. We
don't want to spend all of our time driving around.
How good is dining on the island, especially outside Victoria?
What's a good reference for Vancouver proper? I know there are
many good restaurants there. What's the best area to stay in with
regard to dining? How about Whistler? Is that the best mountain
destination for a combination of dining and hiking?
(This is a trip for next summer, but if we want to stay in a resort
on the island, I probably need to book this fall, as I understand.)
Can I show up at any of these places at the end of July without a
reservation and expect to find a place to stay? If I can see what's
there before I make a decision, I expect it'll be 10X easier, but
I imagine the answer to that question is "no."
Thanks for your help. I am finding where to stay on the island
particularly bewildering, and want to make the most of my time.
Steve Pope
>Anyway, I am trying to arrange a vacation in the Vancouver area,
>but am having difficulties making choices on where exactly to stay.
>I'd like to spend some time on Vancouver Island, and do some good
>dayhikes, but I am not sure how to balance that with dining. We
>don't want to spend all of our time driving around.
>
>How good is dining on the island, especially outside Victoria?
>What's a good reference for Vancouver proper? I know there are
>many good restaurants there. What's the best area to stay in with
>regard to dining? How about Whistler? Is that the best mountain
>destination for a combination of dining and hiking?
I've never hiked on Whistler but it is famous for hiking. The
only real hiking (backpacking) I've done in the area is in the
Manning Park, near the border. But I'm guessing Whistler, as
well as other spots on the mainland and the island, equal or
exceed this. (Not to mention the smaller islands.) I've had good
camping/hiking experiences in the Long Beach area, on the west
coast of the island, but it's a bit of a drive.
As for dining... in Vancouver, don't miss Vij's. That's all
I can say on top of my past posts on the subject. I would not
set my culinary hopes too high outside of Vancouver/Victoria.
That said, you can hardly fail to have a great trip up there.
I'd suggest stopping by an REI or similar to get day hike
guidebooks for the area.
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>I've had good camping/hiking experiences in the Long Beach area,
>on the west coast of the island, but it's a bit of a drive.
I guess that's a central question. Is that a can't-miss area? I'm
pondering spending the night out there. I take it that dining
prospects are less than impressive?
>I'd suggest stopping by an REI or similar to get day hike guidebooks
>for the area.
I ordered some guides from Amazon.com (which have yet to arrive).
That should help. Our experience is that the best guides are found
at the locales, though, and that the others are usually so-so.
Steve Pope
>In article <am3evm$188$1...@samba.rahul.net>,
>Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>>I've had good camping/hiking experiences in the Long Beach area,
>>on the west coast of the island, but it's a bit of a drive.
>I guess that's a central question. Is that a can't-miss area?
I liked it on the coast. On the drive over are some big trees (firs?)
in small roadside parks, but most of the interior of the island is
logging rather than hiking country.
> I'm pondering spending the night out there. I take it that
> dining prospects are less than impressive?
Actually, there is (was) a good seafood restaurant in Tofino,
although I don't recall it's name. Probably you could just
case out the restaurants in town and pick a pretty good one.
>>I'd suggest stopping by an REI or similar to get day hike guidebooks
>>for the area.
>I ordered some guides from Amazon.com (which have yet to arrive).
>That should help. Our experience is that the best guides are found
>at the locales, though, and that the others are usually so-so.
I have sitting in front of me "103 Hikes in Southwestern British
Colombia" by Macaree. Unfortunately it doesn't cover Vancouver
Island, but it covers Whistler, Fraser Valley, Hope-Manning
and lots of other stuff. I must have bought it in B.C.
Steve
Charles Belov
restaurant. The menu consists solely of pita with dips. The chef
made 3 things of his choice based on my dietary restrictions and
they were all fantastic. Reasonably priced, not fancy, NOT low-calorie.
Charles Belov
reply to ba.food
Steve Fenwick
The only thing that confuses me is where you plan to be--on the island,
or in Vancouver (the city), or both? It's at least a couple of hours by
ferry and driving between the two (faster by seaplane or helicopter,
which are not as outrageous as they might sound).
In the city proper, I'd recommend:
Le Crocodile, lunch or dinner, particularly for the sole and Alsatian
tart;
Tojo's, for sushi;
C Restaurant: used to be good for seafood, but I've heard some negative
reviews more recently than my (our) last visit. However, SWANES suggests
that it may only be for folks who like "pure" seafood--that is, with
minimal sauces, particularly not cream and butter sauces.
Mum's Gelati; if it's cool, for hot cider, if it's hot, for gelato.
ObNotBAFood: Off The Grid Waffles (A Street Market, Ashland OR): Just
opened 3 weeks ago, they are still coming up to speed (e.g., no smoked
salmon for the salmon crepes, or meat for the French Dip sandwich). The
turkey omelet was good--not up to Joanie's best, but solid. The Greek
savory crepe was reported to be just okay. The sweet chocolate crepe,
however, didn't work for us--filled with ricotta and coated with what
tasted like Hershey's, plus some semisweet chips and whipped cream, it
would up with a fairly grainy texture. The sweet crepes we had at the
Mountain View A&W Festival were much better. Herself is of the suspicion
that the ricotta filling allows OTG to start all of their sweet crepes
the same, then just add external toppings. Homefries are the big-chunk
kind, and were okay. We may go back, but the price (omelet with taters,
savory crepe, extra side of taters, sweet crepe, 2 drinks), at $25, is
on par with Morning Glory, which has a much better breakfast or lunch,
and OTG is just down the street from Lela's, which costs a bit more for
lunch but is loads better. As I mentioned, OTG is just recently opened,
so maybe they'll improve with age. 7AM to 4PM.
Pizza from Cozmic Pizza, however (also in A Street Market), later the
same day, was quite good. A nice wide choice of toppings, good crust
(thin, but not as cracker-y as I like it), able to handle special
requests correctly, and the mini starts at $5 and is only $0.25 per
topping. Calzones and foccacia are also available. Oddly, they also
carry some quite good pastries, including Nipples of Venus and eclairs.
They're also open 11AM to 11PM daily, and they deliver, which makes them
a good "it's 9PM and we forgot to eat dinner, what do we do now?" place.
We'll be back.
Steve
--
Steve Fenwick Anti-spammed address: steve (at) stevefenwick (dot) com
Todd Michel McComb
Steve Fenwick <no-retur...@see-below.invalid> wrote:
>The only thing that confuses me is where you plan to be--on the
>island, or in Vancouver (the city), or both?
Both. We want to tour the area. We have one week. The first thing
I want to figure out is how many nights to spend in each place. It
seems to be impossible to stay in some areas without reservations,
so I won't be able to make the decisions on the spur of the moment.
Steve Fenwick
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
Caveat--the last time I was there was early 2001, so my information may
be dated.
The travel time between the two (island and city) is long enough that
I'd recommend doing one, then the other. Going back-and-forth is only
practical, IMO, if you're willing to spring for seaplane/helicopter fare.
That being said, yes, you're going during high season (summer?), and
everything is reported to book up (or used to). Personally, I've only
gone in winter, which is great for fooding because the hotels downtown
are cheap, and the restaurants aren't nearly as crowded.
I'd give your self at least two or three nights in the city, to see
things like the UBC Anthropology museum, Stanley Park at sunset, maybe
the aquarium (not really better than Monterey, though), the cruise ships
docked in the harbor and transiting to the sea, Granville Island (shops,
farmer's market), maybe the planetarium, maybe the Science Dome (good
for small fry, but runs out of gas for teens and adults), Robson Street
(shopping, food), Chinatown (food), the West End (Stanley Park, and, did
I mention, food? :) There may be Shakespeare in the Park when you're
there, and/or something good playing at one of the other theatres.
There's a steam train that runs up the coast; I've been meaning to try
it, but it doesn't run in winter.
Good luck!
Steve Pope
> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>> The only thing that confuses me is where you plan to be--on the
>>> island, or in Vancouver (the city), or both?
>> Both. We want to tour the area. We have one week. The first thing
>> I want to figure out is how many nights to spend in each place. It
>> seems to be impossible to stay in some areas without reservations,
>> so I won't be able to make the decisions on the spur of the moment.
> Caveat--the last time I was there was early 2001, so my information
> may be dated.
> The travel time between the two (island and city) is long
> enough that I'd recommend doing one, then the other. Going
> back-and-forth is only practical, IMO, if you're willing to
> spring for seaplane/helicopter fare.
One wouldn't need to go back and forth: one could for example
fly into Victoria, rent a car and drive around the island for
a few days, drop off the rental car in Nanaimo, take the ferry
from Nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay in North Vancouver, spend
a few days in Vancouver (where you don't need a car), then
fly out of Vancouver.
Sounds like a perfect one-week vacation to me. (In fact,
it's a one-week vacation I've done, in exactly that sequence.)
The only problem is it doesn't get you to Whistler, or
other driving destinations on the mainland.
We're talking next July? Plenty of time to plan.
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
Yeah, although I had the impression that some of the island resorts
would fill for next summer by this fall.
To clarify our plans, we are going to Seattle by train, and later
leaving Seattle by train for Chicago. I was told that renting a
car there was much cheaper/easier than in Canada, so have tentatively
planned to have a car with us the whole time, take the car ferry,
etc. I could be dissuaded. There's a train to Whistler, for
instance.
While seeing the city is something I'd definitely like to do, it's
also not the sort of activity we tend to enjoy for an extended
period. Our main avocations are hiking and eating, so it's a matter
of balancing those two.
Mark Mellin
Michel McComb) wrote:
For variety's sake, you might consider a loop trip, arriving in Victoria
by way of Port Angeles:
We found some nice cabins in nearby Lake Crescent on our last trip. The
Olympic National Forest is close by for (wet!) hiking. I have absolutely
no food memories of this trip, though from previous visits, I recall Port
Angeles' Salty Dog bar as being a fun place.
- Mark
--
Mark Mellin
New Orleans posting from beautiful San Francisco
2,473 miles Menlo Park 29 miles
pop. 25,900 elevation 54
Steve Pope
> For variety's sake, you might consider a loop trip, arriving in Victoria
>by way of Port Angeles:
>
> <http://www.cohoferry.com/>
Another possibility is the high-speed ferry from downtown
Seattle direct to Victoria inner harbor.
Unfortunately, it is really expensive -- aroud US$60/person.
S.
Todd Michel McComb
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>Another possibility is the high-speed ferry from downtown
>Seattle direct to Victoria inner harbor.
That's not a car ferry either, I don't think, assuming we stick
with the rental car plan.
We'll do some sort of loop. Port Angeles might be more fun than
Anacortes, which would also be less of a loop.
Steve Fenwick
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> In article <am5gpn$j8c$1...@samba.rahul.net>,
> Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> >We're talking next July? Plenty of time to plan.
>
> Yeah, although I had the impression that some of the island resorts
> would fill for next summer by this fall.
>
> To clarify our plans, we are going to Seattle by train, and later
> leaving Seattle by train for Chicago. I was told that renting a
> car there was much cheaper/easier than in Canada, so have tentatively
> planned to have a car with us the whole time, take the car ferry,
> etc. I could be dissuaded. There's a train to Whistler, for
> instance.
Hmm...what about taking the Canadian train? You'd have to go by way of
Windsor (sort of like going to Portland from SFO by way of Seattle), but
the territory is pretty. Can't comment on the train service, though.
You can go directly from Seattle to Victoria by ferry,
> While seeing the city is something I'd definitely like to do, it's
> also not the sort of activity we tend to enjoy for an extended
> period. Our main avocations are hiking and eating, so it's a matter
> of balancing those two.
Eating hikers? What kind of rub do you recommend for the ribs?
Todd Michel McComb
Steve Fenwick <no-retur...@see-below.invalid> wrote:
>Hmm...what about taking the Canadian train?
I had originally planned to take the train to Vancouver, but given
the schedules and distances involved, a car seems like a better
option right now. That's about the sort of distance to which I
think a car is well-suited -- much shorter gets to be silly (IMO,
as we've belabored), and much longer is miserable.
Of course, it means I get to agonize over driving/staying elsewhere
on the island....
>Eating hikers? What kind of rub do you recommend for the ribs?
I believe Meg would be the expert there.
Pete Fraser
"Steve Fenwick" <no-retur...@see-below.invalid> wrote in message
news:no-return-address-1...@news-west.teranews.com...
>
> C Restaurant: used to be good for seafood, but I've heard some negative
> reviews more recently than my (our) last visit.
I have yet to eat there, but a friend (whose opinion
I respect) ate there a few weeks ago, and raved about it.
tyler wong
Michel McComb) wrote:
>
> How good is dining on the island, especially outside Victoria?
> What's a good reference for Vancouver proper? I know there are
> many good restaurants there.
Here's my report from a few years ago:
http://sharkfeeder.com/foodreports/vancouver01.html
...with the caveat that it is not very useful or coherent. The key point
is that Lumiere's gave me a tasting menu better than most I've had in SF,
and is priced reasonably (or was, at that time. $70 canadian).
tyler
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> >>I've had good camping/hiking experiences in the Long Beach area,
> >>on the west coast of the island, but it's a bit of a drive.
>
> >I guess that's a central question. Is that a can't-miss area?
How much time do you have? What are you looking for?
> I liked it on the coast. On the drive over are some big trees (firs?)
> in small roadside parks, but most of the interior of the island is
> logging rather than hiking country.
>
> > I'm pondering spending the night out there. I take it that
> > dining prospects are less than impressive?
>
> Actually, there is (was) a good seafood restaurant in Tofino,
> although I don't recall it's name. Probably you could just
> case out the restaurants in town and pick a pretty good one.
We did tofino and uclulet this summer.
It's a great "get away from it all" place. that's because it's seriously
out in the middle of nowhere. It has some really nice hiking areas,
but... To get there, you have to drive to Port Alberni, and then keep
driving. a couple of hours of moderately technical, two lane mountain
driving. Road is in decent shape, but -- you're a long ways out.
If you aren't willing to commit to a couple of days out there, I
wouldn't bother. you'll spend all of your time in transit otherwise.
Once you get there, food is quite good, but also quite limited. We
stayed at the Best Western Tin Wis, which is a nice resort (and is first
nations built, owned and operated, which I considered a plus). Has a
very nice restaurant. There are a number of other resorts in the area,
such as Wickannish Inn. As far as standalone restaurants, there are
some, and some quite good (the japanese/sushi place in downtown tofino
was very nice), but there aren't a huge number of options. you'll likely
find yourself either migrating back to the restaurant at the place you
stay at, or wandering around the resorts to their restaurants. On the
other, other hand, the seafood there absolutely rocks.
But man, is it a drive. And OTHER than sitting on the beach and
relaxing, or hiking in the area, there's not a huge amount to do. you
can do all of Tofino AND Uclulet in maybe half a day. There are two good
first nations galleries (the main one being Roy Henry Vickers) and a
couple of smaller places, and there's ecotourism in the area (whale
watching, bear watching, and touring through Clayoquot sound), but the
options thin out quickly.
Also be aware that Victoria is in the rain shadow of Washington's
Olympic Peninsula. Tofino and Uclulet -- aren't. your chances of getting
inclement weather out there is significant. Unless you like hiking
soaking wet, you risk watching things from your hotel room. There is an
area in the long beach park out there called "rain forest". it's named
that for a reason. Great place to hike, but wet.
If my time was somewhat limited, I'd skip tofino/uclulet. If you want
forested hiking, there are a number of places in and around Victoria
that you'll be VERY happy with, without having to drive 6 hours to get
there. If you want beach hiking, then either head up the 1 and 19 to
qualicum beach (long, wide, flat and goes forever) or take the 14 hour
towards Port Renfrew, where you'll also head onto the west coast and
find a number of nice beach areas. Adn you're still within easy reach of
Victoria so you don't lose all the transit time.
Tofino and Uclulet are places to go when you're more familiar with the
area and want to explore the outlands. If this is your first visit, stay
in Victoria and daytrip.
IMHO, you can get to Port Renfew, Port Alberni and Qualicum Beach or
Comox on a day trip reasonably. Campbell River is about as far as I'd
consider doing a daytrip (I've done it, too, and probably would
recommend overnighting there if you go). But there's a LOT of stuff
within that reach. For the first trip, I'd suggest limiting your
wandering and not try to do to much, or you risk spending all of your
time getting places and no time being there.
a good reference of parks in the area is:
http://www.sidneybc.com/sidney/park1.htm
if you're looking for suggestions, I'd consider the galloping goose
trail, east sooke park, coles bay. Another thing to consider is to go
explore one of the islands, like Pender or Mayne.
I recommend these books for victoria:
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0969766726/qid=1032231092/
br=1-11/ref=br_lf_b_11//104-8997454-6735913?v=glance&s=books&n=67587>
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1552851842/qid=1032231092/
br=1-17/ref=br_lf_b_17//104-8997454-6735913?v=glance&s=books&n=67587>
(for in-town walking)
Chuq Von Rospach
> Anyway, I am trying to arrange a vacation in the Vancouver area,
> but am having difficulties making choices on where exactly to stay.
> I'd like to spend some time on Vancouver Island, and do some good
> dayhikes, but I am not sure how to balance that with dining. We
> don't want to spend all of our time driving around.
Both areas have great ability to roost in the city, eat until you burst,
and walk it off in between meals. they're both great foodie cities.
> How good is dining on the island, especially outside Victoria?
why leave victoria? (grin). but seriously, there's decent food all
around the island.
> (This is a trip for next summer, but if we want to stay in a resort
> on the island, I probably need to book this fall, as I understand.)
depends on where you stay. you can do pretty well in both vancouver and
victoria proper year-round. You can get REALLY nice deals off-season
(Laurie and I have talked a bit about maybe going up for US turkey day,
but I think we'll hold off and put the money into the remodel. But we
have the victoria jones going...)
Whistler can be more of an issue, but my boss has gone there on very
short notice (with kids) with some success.
> Can I show up at any of these places at the end of July without a
> reservation and expect to find a place to stay?
Yes. Good place? depends. Vancouver has a lot of hotel rooms because
it's a big business city, so it usually has decent rooms. Victoria is
more tourist oriented, and with the ferry trade (both from the mainland
and from seattle and port angeles) tends to have bursts of "full". the
best way to avoid that is arrive on a sunday or monday and stay during
the week, lots of folks show up thursday/friday/saturday.
I prefer to plan ahead, but you can do this okay. end of july, first
week of august is a bank holiday in canada, so you'll have lots of
long-weekend types if you aren't careful.
> Thanks for your help. I am finding where to stay on the island
> particularly bewildering, and want to make the most of my time.
If you want to stay inexpensively, look for a place up the 1A. but be
aware you're a drive into downtown. We always stay right downtown (at
the Grand Hotel, which overlooks the Coho dock) on the harbor). there
are some other hotels there that might be somewhat less expensive, if
you get lucky. One we used to stay at we really like (and is ocnverted
apartment flats) is the Shamrock on Douglas, right at the entrance to
Beacon Hill Park. If you want a real bedroom and a kitchen, it's a great
bargain (we stopped using them because we really like the Grand, and it
has high-speed internet, which, with my job these days, is a requirement)
The area bounded by the inner harbor, parliment building and about
quebec street has a number of nice places, some expensive, some less
expensive, but all right in the middle of everything....
If you're there on a weekend, at 10:30 on sundays the harbor ferries do
a water ballet to Beethoven. Just trust me, you ought to see it once.
really.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> Both. We want to tour the area. We have one week.
then don't spend your time in transit. Two stops: vancouver and
victoria. If you add in whistler, you'll spend too much time getting to
places to enjoy it. If you're flying in and our of vancouver airport, I
strongly suggest you fly in, grab a car, and drive to Victoria and start
there, then ferry back to vancouver for the second part. Otherwise,
you're asking for bad karma (and a really, really early alarm) to get
packed, in the car, to the ferry, across the water, and to the airport
in time without weather, delays or full ferries. trust me on this.
Chuq Von Rospach
Or if you're staying downtown or near the harbor, take the seabus to
Lonsdale Quay. 90% of Granville Island's food and a lot easier to get to
from that side of the city.
I'm fond (quite fond) of Herons, in the Fairmont Waterfront. Not cheap,
but... and the Following Sea on pacific at hornby, near where the harbor
ferry to granville docks. not trendy, but quite good and tends to be
less expensive.
Chuq Von Rospach
markm...@earthlink.net (Mark Mellin) wrote:
> For variety's sake, you might consider a loop trip, arriving in Victoria
> by way of Port Angeles:
>
> <http://www.cohoferry.com/>
definitely. customs/immigration is a lot less stress on the Coho.
> We found some nice cabins in nearby Lake Crescent on our last trip. The
> Olympic National Forest is close by for (wet!) hiking. I have absolutely
> no food memories of this trip, though from previous visits, I recall Port
> Angeles' Salty Dog bar as being a fun place.
If you're interested in doing this, I'd suggest:
train -> seattle.
rent a car.
drive to Vancouver (peace arch can be hellacious. Go early in the
morning, midweek to avoid the worst crowds. We've crossed in under 30
seconds by avoiding the time everyone else is crossing).
Vancouver for a few nights. I'd suggest one day of hiking through the
city, one in stanley park, which really CAN keep you happy for a full
day, no problem. Lots of varied stuff there.
Then ferry to victoria. spend a few days. (see some of my other posts).
If you're a foodie, make sure you hit the Pacfic (restaurant in the
Grand Hotel) and Bravo on wharf (whimper). you can eat yourself silly in
Victoria and spend a long time before you start to repeat.
On the day you want to head out, get to the Coho early and ask to be
parked for a later sailing. It avoids the "we're full" problem, and you
have that time to wander downtown one more time.
Overnight one night in Port Angeles, which is pretty barren for food.
but in the morning, spend time up on Hurricane Ridge and exploring the
Olympic national park area there, then head back towards seattle via the
Kingston or Bainbridge Island ferry. Drops you off downtown, head back
to turn your car in....
I MUCH prefer to cross INTO canada at Peace Arch and back into the US on
the coho into Port Angeles. It tends to maximize your ability to be
places you want to be, and minimize the hassles of the border crossings.
Michael Dix
>
> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> > To clarify our plans, we are going to Seattle by train, and later
> > leaving Seattle by train for Chicago. I was told that renting a
> > car there was much cheaper/easier than in Canada, so have tentatively
> > planned to have a car with us the whole time, take the car ferry,
> > etc. I could be dissuaded. There's a train to Whistler, for
> > instance.
>
> Hmm...what about taking the Canadian train? You'd have to go by way of
> Windsor (sort of like going to Portland from SFO by way of Seattle), but
> the territory is pretty. Can't comment on the train service, though.
You have to connect from the Trans-Canada train at Toronto.
The International runs from Chicago to Toronto via Port Huron, MI
and Sarnia, ON. If you went via Windsor, you'd have to arrange
your own connections between Detroit and Canada.
It would be fun, but I think the Empire Builder would be
enough train travel.
Steve Pope
> Also be aware that Victoria is in the rain shadow of
> Washington's Olympic Peninsula. Tofino and Uclulet -- aren't.
> your chances of getting inclement weather out there is
> significant. Unless you like hiking soaking wet, you risk
> watching things from your hotel room.
No shit. The time we tent-camped on Long Beach, a rainstorm
came in middle of the night. For the four hours until
early dawn arrived and we could break camp, it probably
rained at about one or two inches per hour. Fortunately
the tent -- an old REI half-dome whose rain tarp at some
point I had treated with Thomson Waterseal (the original, not
the newer fake stuff) -- held up, and the ground drainage was okay.
This was mid-summer. Daytime hiking weather was fine, but
there are no guarantees. You could be socked in up there,
anytime of year, if you're unlucky.
Steve
Steve Pope
> Or if you're staying downtown or near the harbor, take the
> seabus to Lonsdale Quay. 90% of Granville Island's food and a lot
> easier to get to from that side of the city.
I'll second that. As a market, it's about as good as Granville,
including seafood type stuff ready to eat. Granville has
more of the artsy things.
Also a trip to the top of Grouse mountain can be combined into it
(a busline goes from near Lonsdale to the parking lot for
the skilift to the top of Grouse, and another busline goes
back downtown.)
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
>wouldn't bother.
That sounds reasonable. Thanks. I take it you love the Victoria
area, so I should be confident we'll have a great time there and
not get restless.
>And OTHER than sitting on the beach and relaxing, or hiking in the
>area, there's not a huge amount to do.
Oh, we pretty much spend vacations like this hiking and eating.
Little else. Anyplace with a good combination of both is heaven.
>Unless you like hiking soaking wet, you risk watching things from
>your hotel room.
Thanks for this note. We don't *like* hiking wet, but we do it.
We don't wimp out. I've walked the kids a mile to school in a
downpour many a time, and that's at home -- not out in beautiful
scenery where there's some incentive other than just being a hard
ass.
>If this is your first visit, stay in Victoria and daytrip.
Alright, you've convinced me. Thanks. That's one decision made.
(My reverse thought was that on a first visit, I'd try to tour
everything, and see where we wanted to spend more time in the
future.) Now I just need to allocate days between
Victoria/Whistler/Vancouver.
How likely am I not to be able to go on the ferries without a
reservation? I note the Port Angeles ferry does not take reservations.
I'll check your references.
Todd Michel McComb
>US on the coho into Port Angeles. It tends to maximize your ability
>to be places you want to be, and minimize the hassles of the border
>crossings.
Hmm. I had the other direction in mind for the circuit. Is the
customs stuff really much of a hassle with a US passport?
Are you recommending against Whistler? I think we'd like to hike
there....
Michael Dix
>
> In article <chuq-0DDE50.1...@news.apple.com>,
> Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> wrote:
> >If you aren't willing to commit to a couple of days out there, I
> >wouldn't bother.
>
> That sounds reasonable. Thanks. I take it you love the Victoria
> area, so I should be confident we'll have a great time there and
> not get restless.
Do *not* miss the Spinnakers Brewpub in Victoria. They are able to
make British ales in North America. The only downside is that you
will be spoiled for the Tied House in future.
Steve Pope
>Do *not* miss the Spinnakers Brewpub in Victoria. They are able to
>make British ales in North America.
I agree. I posted about them here, about one year ago or
slightly longer.
S.
Steve Pope
> Hmm. I had the other direction in mind for the circuit. Is the
> customs stuff really much of a hassle with a US passport?
There may be nuances of differences among the border crossings,
but IMO not so much as to affect planning of one's itinerary.
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
Michael Dix <mj...@sonic.net> wrote:
>Do *not* miss the Spinnakers Brewpub in Victoria. They are able to
>make British ales in North America. The only downside is that you
>will be spoiled for the Tied House in future.
You don't have to tell me twice. Oh, and I've certainly had better
beer than at Tied House -- just not around here.
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> wrote:
>
> > Also be aware that Victoria is in the rain shadow of
> > Washington's Olympic Peninsula. Tofino and Uclulet -- aren't.
> > your chances of getting inclement weather out there is
> > significant. Unless you like hiking soaking wet, you risk
> > watching things from your hotel room.
>
> No shit. The time we tent-camped on Long Beach, a rainstorm
> came in middle of the night.
we had a wonderful day first day in. Absolutely dead gorgeous sunset
from our (view of the water) room. Said to self "gotta make sure to have
the camera and ready unpacked tomorrow, this is awesome". Didn't see the
sun the rest of the trip.
Now, if you don't mind a little rain, it's still a nice place. But if
you do... you may well be miserable. Think "Portland in winter".
Now, one interesting thing is that the resorts out there have off-season
"stormwatcher" specials. you can sit in your hotel room and watch them
roll in. supposed to be awesome when a good one shows up.
Of course, getting there off-season could be REALLY interesting, and for
my money, I'll go to, say, Newport Oregon or Long Beach Washington (or
maybe forks) to do some stormwatching instead. a lot more accessible.
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> Also a trip to the top of Grouse mountain can be combined into it
> (a busline goes from near Lonsdale to the parking lot for
> the skilift to the top of Grouse, and another busline goes
> back downtown.)
that's a great point. we haven't done that yet, but you can walk to the
seabus terminal from downtown, cross to Lonsdale, take a bus, and be at
the top of Grouse within an hour or so. a great hack.
Also, someone mentioned the UBC museum of anthropology. First nations
culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, and in all honesty, I
recommend that if you're new to all this, pass on t hat and instead go
to the Royal BC museum in downtown Victoria. it's a LOT better as a
first introduction to first nations culture (and has some great
historical sections on british columbia history). the UBC museum can be
somewhat chaotic and opaque to someone who's not somewhat familiar to
the material, although it has an awesome collection.
I think the victoria museum has a great collection AND makes it
interesting and accessible to the novice.
FWIW.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> Hmm. I had the other direction in mind for the circuit. Is the
> customs stuff really much of a hassle with a US passport?
depends.
ON a busy day, Peace Arch can be nasty in both directions.
Canadian immigration/customs people are happy to see you, and don't
treat you like criminals. So passing US -> Canada through Peace Arch is
usually pain free. Just make sure you don't do anything stupid like
carry guns or mace.
Traipsing from Canada -> US through Peace Arch is sometimes painless,
and sometimes, well, not. There are all sorts of documentation of
problems with some of the US agents there. customs and immigration are
two services that are in fairly serious need of an attitude adjustment.
If you catch an agent on a bad day, it can be unhappy.
the agents taking you off the coho and allowing you into Port Angeles
tend to be a lot more mellow. They don't have the volume or pressure (do
not, by the way, take this to mean they aren't paying attention. they're
good, just not stressed. don't try to snow them). So there's a lot lower
chance of significant delays or hassles.
I've just heard too many horror stories about crossing into the US at
Peace Arch. I try to schedule away from it when I can.
The other thing is that the Coho schedule is better suited to the
Victoria->Port Angeles trip. While waiting for the ferry to leave,
you're in victoria, not Port Angeles. You can take an afternoon ferrty,
giving you more time in Victoria. the Coho only does 3-4 trips a day, so
it's not like the BC ferries that go off every hour, so you have to plan
better and your schedule is more restricted. And it's fairly small, so
it fills up. So you run the risk of having to wait for a later sailing,
and if I'm waiting for a later sailing, I want to be in victoria. Port
Angeles is, well, not that interesting.
Dealing with ferries is a great way to teach you to be on time, relax,
and learn to plan around someone else's schedule... the concept of
"island time"...
> Are you recommending against Whistler? I think we'd like to hike
> there....
If you're just there for a week, even if you include the weekends,
you're pushing it. You have a day travelling Seattle -> somewhere. A
somewhere -> whistler, and one whistler -> other somewhere, and one back
to seattle. Even if those are only half-days, that's 1/3 of your time in
transit, maybe even half. Is that what you want to do?
I used to do a lot of "run for the border" trips (the true "death march"
was 10 cites and 3500 mites in 23 games, including 13 baseball games
between San Jose and Edmonton and back via Vancouver), and I now feel
that kind of schedule leaves me harried. I try to stay 3 nights in any
place, or I feel like I'm spending the whole trip packing, unpacking, or
moving to the next place.
YMMV, but I think two locations, two hotels, more time hiking and less
time getting there is a good thing. Think about how much time you'll
spend getting there and if you don't mind, fine. Me, there are such nice
areas all over that place that I don't see Whister as really all that
necessary for a first trip.
Chuq Von Rospach
Michael Dix <lo...@sig.please.because.this.is.invalid> wrote:
> Do *not* miss the Spinnakers Brewpub in Victoria. They are able to
> make British ales in North America. The only downside is that you
> will be spoiled for the Tied House in future.
heh. In ALL the years we've gone to victoria, we've never gotten there.
But there's now a brewpub downtown that's pretty darn good (Hugos, near
Eaton's centre). Spinnaker's is supposed to be pretty awesome, but it's
out over the johnson street bridge, and that's always been enough hassle
to keep us from making the trek.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> That sounds reasonable. Thanks. I take it you love the Victoria
> area, so I should be confident we'll have a great time there and
> not get restless.
we've been going up there about twice a year for about a decade. We've
considered retiring up there. We're almost definitely going to buy a
second place there if we don't retire there. And I'm seriously
considering going into dealing first nations art when I decide to retire
from the high tech world. gotten to know a number of folks up there
through my collecting and the trips we've taken, and it's just a
wonderful place to be. IMHO...
and it's chock full of killer restaurants.
> Oh, we pretty much spend vacations like this hiking and eating.
> Little else. Anyplace with a good combination of both is heaven.
there are so many local, regional and national parks, greenbelts, open
spaces, beaches and etc around Victoria, you can spend a couple of weeks
there and not get 2 hours out of the city...
> Thanks for this note. We don't *like* hiking wet, but we do it.
then stay in the rain shadow in the southern part of the island. You're
safe on a line roughly from port renfrew (on the coast) through duncan.
North of that, it gets wetter (we've had days where we've driven out to
see friends in Duncan, and it's been sunny in Victoria, and pouring in
Duncan).
> (My reverse thought was that on a first visit, I'd try to tour
> everything, and see where we wanted to spend more time in the
> future.)
I find trying that you end up seeing nothing. Unless it's a hard-core
cocoon trip (get into victoria and hide), we base there, but try to
visit new places as well. Campbell river is a nice place for about 2
days and has some great hiking areas, but I don't know that you'll see
anything really distinct there on a first visit (although I found this
gallery that has the best damn goldsmithing on the island -- Laurie got
a wonderful set of gold and emerald earrings by Corrine Hunt there).
Trust me -- there is SO MUCH available in greater vancouver and greater
victoria that you won't be feeling bored any time soon.
> Now I just need to allocate days between
> Victoria/Whistler/Vancouver.
vancouver is more urban, and in general, more expensive. For fairly
equivalent (good!) hotel rooms, we usually end up paying about $100C
more a day in vancouver. Now, we're not staying in Day's Inn, but it's
harder to find a "great deal" in Vancouver".
> How likely am I not to be able to go on the ferries without a
> reservation? I note the Port Angeles ferry does not take reservations.
you have to be careful. In general, if you get to the Coho dock in
Victoria by 9AM, you can get on the afternoon ferry out. weekends can be
crazy, especially summer and near holidays. you have to plan ahead. In
either direction, if you arrive about the time (or a little after) that
the ferry is scheduled to sail, they open upn parking for the SECOND
ferry after that. if the next ferry isn't full, you can get onto it. If
it is, you fall back to the one after, lock the car, and wander the
neighborhood. It's a matter of planning ahead, and realizing when it's
full, it's full, and making sure it's some OTHER poor schmuck is stuck
on the dock.
If that worries you, plan to go both ways by BC ferries Tswassen/Sydney.
you might have to wait a sailing (in really bad times, two), but that's
a couple of hours of sitting in a huge, boring parking lot wiating for
the boat... They have these massive bugger ferries that move a lot of
cars, so it's always a fallback position.
Me, my preference is to make sure I show up early for a late afternoon
run of the Coho, and if I screw up, I run to sydney, get a BC ferry, and
run to the border. If I have reservations in Port Angeles for the
evening, they have to get cancelled and then we stay somewhere north of
Seattle instead.
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
Steve's either not crossed the borders a lot, or is a lot luckier than I
and my friends are...
(grin)
Todd Michel McComb
Unless I'm seriously misinformed, we won't be doing anything remotely
illegal, or even undesirable. We didn't even bring a passport to
Montreal, but I wouldn't dare do that these days....
>The other thing is that the Coho schedule is better suited to the
>Victoria->Port Angeles trip.
Alright, you're selling me here. Ever thought of being a travel
agent? :-)
>Port Angeles is, well, not that interesting.
This raises the issue: Do I really want to stay there? A day/half
day on the Olympic Peninsula sounds nice, though.
>If you're just there for a week, even if you include the weekends,
>you're pushing it.
Yeah, I know. It's tough to balance. But I do have the kids, and
if we aren't doing something active or have them tired enough after
doing something active, they'll literally be bouncing off the walls
of the hotel room. At home, they can handle considerable down time,
but on vacation, they don't expect it. There's really no possibility
of relaxing. (Not to mention that this is one week of a three week
vacation, part of which there will be absolutely nothing to do --
but grandparents to entertain the kids. So I can always rest later.)
>I don't see Whister as really all that necessary for a first trip.
Isn't that the best hiking area, though? I love mountain hiking...
really no substitute.
I'm more inclined to minimize my stay in Vancouver proper. I
definitely believe it's a great place to eat (ObBa.Food), but is
the hiking I can easily get to from Vancouver itself really comparable
to what I can do in Whistler? We pretty much stick to "strenuous"
hikes, as a rule. Maybe I'm poorly informed on this point (I
certainly am), but I consider it to be a critical point. I'd like
to fit in a couple of goodly 10 mile mountain hikes. If I can
sensibly do that on day trips from Vancouver, please do tell.
Steve Pope
>>Port Angeles is, well, not that interesting.
>This raises the issue: Do I really want to stay there? A day/half
>day on the Olympic Peninsula sounds nice, though.
There is no intrinsic reason to stay in Port Angeles. However,
it is the point where you can wake up, get on the ferry, and
then be in Victoria by midday. Or the point you
can go to crash after a day of hiking in the Olympics.
For these reasons, I have sometimes stayed the night in
Port Angeles.
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
>the Coho dock) on the harbor).
I don't care about the cost (much). We generally stay at the places
we like best, and I like convenience.
But I could not find this hotel in a search of the online directories.
Do you have some more concrete information, or a URL? Is the name
slightly different, Hotel Grand Pacific, say?
Thanks for your help. Your posts have been enormously helpful.
Todd McComb
mcc...@medieval.org
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>but am having difficulties making choices on where exactly to stay.
>I'd like to spend some time on Vancouver Island, and do some good
>dayhikes, but I am not sure how to balance that with dining. We
>don't want to spend all of our time driving around.
Fly to Victoria.
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2002 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"The Nightwatch exists to protect our people from misinformation and
harmful ideas. Sometimes those harmful ideas can be very subtle. You
might not recognize them. But we will." --JMS, "The Fall of Night"
Michael Dix
I had a couple more thoughts, so I'll stick them here:
Regarding Chuq's comment - we had a car, so we drove to Spinnakers.
It's off by itself.
Although it is a heavily promoted tourist attraction, the
Butchart Gardens near Victoria are still worth a look.
A fun thing to do in Vancouver is rent bikes and ride around
Stanley Park. We stayed at the Sylvia Hotel, on English Bay
a couple of blocks away. We took a water bus from there to
Granville Island, IIRC.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> We didn't even bring a passport to
> Montreal, but I wouldn't dare do that these days....
we always carry passports. These days, I think it's insane not to. Even
before, though, it seemed to help remind the authorities that we were
folks who had a clue about what the crossing implied, and it seems to
make life easier.
> >The other thing is that the Coho schedule is better suited to the
> >Victoria->Port Angeles trip.
>
> Alright, you're selling me here. Ever thought of being a travel
> agent? :-)
Nah. I'd rather sell first nations art on eBay and eat in victoria
restaurants. More fun.
> >Port Angeles is, well, not that interesting.
>
> This raises the issue: Do I really want to stay there? A day/half
> day on the Olympic Peninsula sounds nice, though.
Since you are interested in nature activities, I'd probably recommend
it.
but think about what is going on, also. The ferry crossing on the Coho
is about 90 minutes. you have to be at your car about 90 minutes prior
to that for immigration and loading. You have to have shown up, parked
and bought your tickets some time prior to that, so while you can wander
the inner harbor, you are limited in how far you can get. To make sure
you get the 3PM ferry, you better be parked on the lot by 10 during
summer.
after you hit Port Angeles, you have (if you're lucky) 20-30 minutes for
offloading and customs. That can easily stretch to an hour depending on
where you get unloaded.
So AT BEST, the Coho crossing is about 4 hours, and you get into Port
Angeles about 5 or 5:30PM. If you take the 7:30PM crossing, it's going
on 10PM.
From Port Angeles, Seattle is 2.5 to 3 hours, easy, if you catch a ferry
quickly. If not, add ferry waiting time. (Portland is 5 hours, which is
why WE stay in Port Angeles, since we're usually headed south and don't
feel like that much of a drive, although we've done it).
Do you really want to get into Seattle at 10PM? 1AM? Unless you want to
get to Seattle and take the 6AM or 10:30 Coho. In all honesty? with
kids, I'd roost for the night (we usually stay at the Red Lion, it's on
the water half a block from the ferry dock) and relax, get up in the
morning, go to Hurricane ridge until 1 or 2, then be in Seattle for
dinner.
> Yeah, I know. It's tough to balance. But I do have the kids, and
> if we aren't doing something active or have them tired enough after
> doing something active, they'll literally be bouncing off the walls
> of the hotel room.
with the kids, while in victoria, consider a couple of other excursions.
The Bug Zoo (no kidding) on Wharf. They'll love it. The Crystal gardens
up on Douglas has all sorts of animals and is a fun hack. And in the
Empress is Miniature World. Those aren't outdoor things, but they'll
likely enjoy them -- and they're great backup plans to have in case of
rain.
One thing to keep in mind about BC is that rain is always a possibility.
So we usually schedule for at least one "rain day" where we set up stuff
that can be done away from the rain...
> >I don't see Whister as really all that necessary for a first trip.
>
> Isn't that the best hiking area, though? I love mountain hiking...
> really no substitute.
It's a great area, but with Grouse Mountain near Vancouver, Hurricane
Ridge area in Port Angeles, and some of the areas around Victoria, you
won't feel cheated.
> I'm more inclined to minimize my stay in Vancouver proper. I
> definitely believe it's a great place to eat (ObBa.Food), but is
> the hiking I can easily get to from Vancouver itself really comparable
> to what I can do in Whistler?
that'd be the tradeoff I'd make, too. Given what you say, I might
consider doing 2 nights in vancovuer, 2 in whistler, 2 in victoria, and
one in port angeles (which gives you an extra half day in victoria to
wander, and half a day at hurricane ridge before heading back to seattle)
> certainly am), but I consider it to be a critical point. I'd like
> to fit in a couple of goodly 10 mile mountain hikes. If I can
> sensibly do that on day trips from Vancouver, please do tell.
then you're better off limiting vancouver (or cutting it completely --
there's good food in Whistler too!) and doing Whistler/Victoria.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> Is the name
> slightly different, Hotel Grand Pacific, say?
yes, it is:
http://www.hotelgrandpacific.com/
hint: harbor view rooms are about $10C more per night, and well worth
it. It's about the same price as the empress is, but bigger, quieter
rooms, not nearly as stuffy, and better food. (and, as I like to say,
you can be IN the empress for sunset, or watching the empress at
sunset...)
Chuq Von Rospach
aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote:
> Fly to Victoria.
these guys fly out of Boeing field a couple of times a day. We've been
tempted, but we like to carry stuff back, so we usually drive.
<http://www.helijet.com/home.html>
there are other options, also, but if Whistler or Vancouver is in the
itinerary, in all honesty, I'd rent a car in Seattle and drive. If I
were ONLY going to Victoria and in a hurry, I'd probably overnight in
Seattle and take the passenger ferry (but then, I'm a ferry fan), rather
than fly.
Chuq Von Rospach
Michael Dix <lo...@sig.please.because.this.is.invalid> wrote:
> Although it is a heavily promoted tourist attraction, the
> Butchart Gardens near Victoria are still worth a look.
definitely. We go up there a lot.
We did something different this time, though -- at the suggestion of the
concierge, we took the gray line bus up in the afternoon and wandered
around, and took in the fireworks. Tres wonderful -- a very traditional,
victorian fireworks display, and the bus driver handled the traffic.
Normally, I don't "do tours", but I think that's by far the best way to
see Butchart, and worth the price. (only available on saturdays...)
Todd Michel McComb
>Port Angeles about 5 or 5:30PM. If you take the 7:30PM crossing,
>it's going on 10PM.
I was thinking about a morning crossing. Do you have to get there
so early for those? What do you think of Mark's idea of spending
the night after the crossing at Lake Crescent?
If I stay at a hotel near the harbor in Victoria, can I simply leave
the car there for the night to ensure that I can cross in the
morning, or is that a no-no?
>From Port Angeles, Seattle is 2.5 to 3 hours, easy, if you catch
>a ferry quickly. If not, add ferry waiting time.
Is taking a ferry really better than driving around via Tacoma?
Yahoo claims driving that way is 3 hours.
>One thing to keep in mind about BC is that rain is always a
>possibility.
Yeah. Two of the last three years, we went to Glacier Park during
this period. The first time it was hot and muggy the whole time,
but the second time, we had driving icy rain part of the time
("horizontal rain" my son still discusses with some awe). We're
very determined. I'll certainly note your "indoor" suggestions,
though. We like to get back from hiking in the afternoon, and
sometimes wind down by looking around the city before dinner.
>then you're better off limiting vancouver (or cutting it completely
>-- there's good food in Whistler too!) and doing Whistler/Victoria.
Right now, I'm thinking of spending the night/half-day in Vancouver
on the way to Whistler, two nights in Whistler, three nights in
Victoria, and then a night on the Olympic Peninsula. My ability
to "envision" this trip is shaping up very nicely, thanks to you
and others. I knew that Vancouver was a popular spot for this
newsgroup, but I could only dream of this level of quality information.
Steve Pope
>In article <am6kd0$88d$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
> aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote:
>
>> Fly to Victoria.
>
>these guys fly out of Boeing field a couple of times a day. We've been
>tempted, but we like to carry stuff back, so we usually drive.
>
><http://www.helijet.com/home.html>
In the past I've flown Horizon Air from SEATAC to Victoria.
It's no problem, really, but if you're going from city center
to city center the fast ferry is faster.
In fact, the ferry is jet-powered; the Horizon passenger planes
aren't...
Steve
Mean Green Dancing Machine
> aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote:
>>
>> Fly to Victoria.
>
>itinerary, in all honesty, I'd rent a car in Seattle and drive. If I
>were ONLY going to Victoria and in a hurry, I'd probably overnight in
>Seattle and take the passenger ferry (but then, I'm a ferry fan), rather
>than fly.
Oh, sure I agree about Whistler/Vancouver. That was just my short-hand
way of suggesting going *only* to Victoria. I suspect that you agree
with that suggestion, if not with my proposed transportation method.
Dave Kearns
> We've been tempted, but we like to carry stuff back,
>
We prefer seaplanes. Kenmore Air
(http://www.kenmoreair.com/victoria-sum.htm)
has 4-6 flights a day between Seattle & Victoria. And while checking
their web site to confirm the schedule, I came across a link to:
http://www.oakbaybeachhotel.com/san_juan_island_ferry.html which lists
ferries scooting among Victoria, Riche Harbor the San Juans - looks
interesting!
-dave
Also, while looking at
Steve Pope
Well, given that while in Victoria you are forced to
listen to seaplanes taking off and landing in the inner
harbor all day long, you might as well fly in on one,
I suppose....
S.
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> I was thinking about a morning crossing. Do you have to get there
> so early for those? What do you think of Mark's idea of spending
> the night after the crossing at Lake Crescent?
depends on the day, but -- if you guess wrong and it's full, it's full.
Weekdays are easier. I'd want to be there by 5 for the first ferry, 7
for the second, but the second won't get you into port angeles until
noon.
> If I stay at a hotel near the harbor in Victoria, can I simply leave
> the car there for the night to ensure that I can cross in the
> morning, or is that a no-no?
I think it's a no-no. I think sometimes they make exceptions, but I'd
ask the ferry folks via email to make sure.
> >From Port Angeles, Seattle is 2.5 to 3 hours, easy, if you catch
> >a ferry quickly. If not, add ferry waiting time.
>
> Is taking a ferry really better than driving around via Tacoma?
> Yahoo claims driving that way is 3 hours.
it sure is prettier and a lot less stressful. timewise? maybe a wash,
but you're heading through areas where traffic can turn into a bear,
too. flip a coin, decide what you want to do. Me, I prefer the more
scenic trip rather than feeling like I need to keep moving. but then, I
already said I'm a ferry fan... (yes, I have driven out of my way just
to take a new ferry run...)
Steve Pope
although people in the PNW do it routinely and think it's
no big deal.
It's pretty clear one week is not long enough to visit
the Olympic penninsula, Victoria, Vancouver Island,
Vancouver, Whistler and/or other outdoor destinations in B.C. ..
so once you start triaging this wish-list, lopping off
some or all of the time-consuming and uncertain car-ferry
transits would sure seem attractive. (Just my opinion)
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
Oh, well, I can reserve....
>I already said I'm a ferry fan...
I think it will be fun. I haven't been on a car ferry in many
years. I'm sure the kids will find it exciting. Whether we want
to take a third ferry, though, is something I guess we'll play by
ear....
Which ferry are we discussing, BTW? Seattle/Bremerton? Kingston/Edmonds?
Do you advise reservations for a weekday crossing from Horseshoe
Bay to Nanaimo? They do take them, as opposed to the Coho.
Steve Pope
>Do you advise reservations for a weekday crossing from Horseshoe
>Bay to Nanaimo? They do take them, as opposed to the Coho.
If you look up B.C. Ferries they can answer these questions.
Another tip: the radio stations in places like Victoria
will often mention how long the waits are at varoius
ferry terminals, which ferries are already full etc.
That can help you avoid having to get there at an
overly-conservative time.
Steve
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> > We prefer seaplanes.
>
> Well, given that while in Victoria you are forced to
> listen to seaplanes taking off and landing in the inner
> harbor all day long
forced to? feature, not bug.
but there's the reality that they were there first... But it's actually
been a fight up there, with the newcomers buying harborside condos and
complaining about the noise -- which was there before they bought, of
course, but NIMBYism lives even in canada.
last fall, the planes had been moved further out into the channel to
mitigate some of the noise. I noticed that this last trip in July, they
were taking off from their old place again, so I guess they either
resolved this or it's still ticking through the courts or something...
(IMHO, it's one thing if you buy a house where you don't know there's a
noise issue, it's another thing to buy it when planes are constantly
flitting by as you're evaluating it, adn then later complaining about
the noise. and in victoria, I doubt it's possible to look at a place
without having at least one plane take off or land....)
Chuq Von Rospach
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> I personally would avoid if possible dealing with car ferries,
> although people in the PNW do it routinely and think it's
> no big deal.
up there, you either learn to deal with it, or you go crazy and get out.
it's part of the "Island time" thing. it's fun to watch the type A folks
hyper out over things not under their control, though...
> It's pretty clear one week is not long enough to visit
> the Olympic penninsula, Victoria, Vancouver Island,
> Vancouver, Whistler and/or other outdoor destinations in B.C. ..
> so once you start triaging this wish-list, lopping off
> some or all of the time-consuming and uncertain car-ferry
> transits would sure seem attractive. (Just my opinion)
that's how we do ours. Set up a wishlist, realize there are too many
things, and start setting priorities. IMHO, one week plus weekends =
transit time plus two stops. Two weeks plus weekends is good for three,
or maybe four but you start spending a lot of time in transit.
My preference is to relax on vacations, though. that's one reason we
choose to revisit BC instead of exploring "new places" (which drives my
mom crazy, since she's an "explore the unknown" type. Old friends vs.
new vistas...
Chuq Von Rospach
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> I think it will be fun. I haven't been on a car ferry in many
> years. I'm sure the kids will find it exciting. Whether we want
> to take a third ferry, though, is something I guess we'll play by
> ear....
always a good idea.
> Which ferry are we discussing, BTW? Seattle/Bremerton? Kingston/Edmonds?
you can, to some degree, take the one with the shortest lines. If you
cross the hood canal bridge, kingston is the obvious one, with
bainbridge island the other. That'd be faster than Bremerton. Or you can
do the ferry out of port townsend, but that's not direct (it takes you
to, um, somewhere, where you drive around an island (whidby?) and grab
another ferry. we did that once for kicks.
> Do you advise reservations for a weekday crossing from Horseshoe
> Bay to Nanaimo? They do take them, as opposed to the Coho.
it never hurts, but unless it's friday or a weekend, not as important.
weekends can be nasty, but they hopefully have the new parking
structures done, so horseshoe bay will be easier to deal with. They were
working on it last trip, causing cars to pile up the side of the road...
Geoff Miller
Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
> First nations culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, [...]
"First nations?" Is that the PC term _du jour_ for redskins?
ObFood: a chicken burrito at the Metreon (4th and Mission) for
lunch. Gah! Even worse than Una Mas. Not that I was expecting
anything special, but still...
ObMeg: So why is Snodfart's CalTrain shuttle called "Marguerite?"
I happened to glance up from my book while the train was stopped
at the University Avenue station this morning, and saw a pair of
(brand-new, by the looks of them) buses with that name painted
on them.
Back in the Seventies, UC Berkeley had a BART shuttle called
Humphrey Go-Bart. No idea whether it's still in existence.
Geoff
--
"I'm not afraid of NOTHIN', melon buns. Roll over
an' I'll GREEK you." -- Cheech Wizard
Todd Michel McComb
is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
ATM in Canada.
Steve Pope
>Another question: How necessary is cash on a trip like this?
Opportunities for using credit cards are as prevalent as
anywhere else.
> What is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
Same with ATM machines
S.
Joseph Michael Bay
>Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
>> First nations culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, [...]
>"First nations?" Is that the PC term _du jour_ for redskins?
It's been the standard Canadian usage for a long time, I think,
since they're somewhat concerned about getting some things right.
>ObFood: a chicken burrito at the Metreon (4th and Mission) for
>lunch. Gah! Even worse than Una Mas. Not that I was expecting
>anything special, but still...
This could probably be used to illustrate the above.
>ObMeg: So why is Snodfart's CalTrain shuttle called "Marguerite?"
>I happened to glance up from my book while the train was stopped
>at the University Avenue station this morning, and saw a pair of
>(brand-new, by the looks of them) buses with that name painted
>on them.
It's named after one of the horses from the original Stanfrod
shuttle in the 1880s. I don't know where the horse got the name.
The really bad one is the Marguerite route that goes downtown
on weekend nights -- the "Midnight Express". I *so* don't ever
want to be on that.
>Back in the Seventies, UC Berkeley had a BART shuttle called
>Humphrey Go-Bart. No idea whether it's still in existence.
Cute.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
www.stanford.edu/~jmbay/ DO NOT PRESS
Michael Dix
>
> Another question: How necessary is cash on a trip like this? What
> is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
ATMs. The Bank of Montreal was the first one to be on the same
network as my bank.
Michael Dix
>
> Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
>
> > First nations culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, [...]
>
> "First nations?" Is that the PC term _du jour_ for redskins?
The term includes Inuit. (Saying Esquimaux is not PC.)
As I recall, the Canadians avoided the term "Native Americans"
because they're not Americans, dammit. (But when they identify with
the US, they say "North Americans").
For a while, Canadians were calling redskins Native Indians.
I'm not sure how that's working out for them.
Tim May
Michael Dix <lo...@sig.please.because.this.is.invalid> wrote:
> Geoff Miller wrote:
> >
> > Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
> >
> > > First nations culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, [...]
> >
> > "First nations?" Is that the PC term _du jour_ for redskins?
>
> The term includes Inuit. (Saying Esquimaux is not PC.)
>
> As I recall, the Canadians avoided the term "Native Americans"
> because they're not Americans, dammit. (But when they identify with
> the US, they say "North Americans").
>
> For a while, Canadians were calling redskins Native Indians.
I thought they called them "wagon burners"?
As for "First Nations," these are the Civilized people of the world.
Most of Europe, the U.S. of course, and parts of Canada. The Second
Nations are the emerging nations, still not really up to First Nations
status.
Then there's the Turd World, which is about 85 of the remaining nations
of the world.
I think concentrating on "First Nations" art is a noble
thing...provided it doesn't include too much of that weird De Kooning
modernist crap.
--Tim May
Mark Mellin
>
> Back in the Seventies, UC Berkeley had a BART shuttle called
> Humphrey Go-Bart. No idea whether it's still in existence.
The shuttles exist, but the name is no longer (now merely called UCB
Shuttle or somesuch). I"m hoping they've since replaced the fleet with
buses that are more comfortable (stiff ride + hard seat = ouch!), though
probably not as fancy as the Margeurites.
Speaking of no longer, a sign on the front door of Menlo Park's Three
Fish restaurant reports that it has "with sadness" closed "pending a sale".
In last week's Chronicle (Sept 4th), GraceAnn Walden reported that Max's
Diamond Grill, across King Street from PacBell Park, will serve its last
dinner on Friday, September 27th. It may or may not re-open next season or
in the meantime if the SOMA economy recovers.
- Mark
--
Mark Mellin
New Orleans posting from beautiful San Francisco
2,473 miles Menlo Park 29 miles
pop. 25,900 elevation 54
Meg Worley
>ObMeg: So why is Snodfart's CalTrain shuttle called "Marguerite?"
>I happened to glance up from my book while the train was stopped
>at the University Avenue station this morning, and saw a pair of
>(brand-new, by the looks of them) buses with that name painted
>on them.
As Joebay wrote, Marguerite was the name of the horse that pulled
the wagon transporting folks from the train station back when
Leland Stanford Sr. walked the earth.
As for those buses, the paint is brand new, but the vehicle most
certainly aren't. The contract just got shifted, and the new
vendor is using buses just as vomitous as the old ones, with worse
exhaust.
Rage away,
meg
--
Meg Worley _._ m...@steam.stanford.edu _._ Comparatively Literate
Steve Pope
[ First nations ]
>The term includes Inuit. (Saying Esquimaux is not PC.)
>
>As I recall, the Canadians avoided the term "Native Americans"
>because they're not Americans, dammit. (But when they identify with
>the US, they say "North Americans").
>
>For a while, Canadians were calling redskins Native Indians.
>I'm not sure how that's working out for them.
Another term they were using, about ten years ago, was
"Canadian Americans".
Go figger....
S.
Joseph Michael Bay
>As for those buses, the paint is brand new, but the vehicle most
>certainly aren't. The contract just got shifted, and the new
>vendor is using buses just as vomitous as the old ones, with worse
>exhaust.
I've heard that if everyone on the Marguerite drove a smallish
car and the buses just sat somewhere unused there would be a net
reduction in the transit-related emissions.
Then again, I've heard a lot of things. Still, I really don't
like being around those buses.
Chuq Von Rospach
>
> >Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
>
> >> First nations culture and art (I collect) is a hobby of mine, [...]
>
>
> >"First nations?" Is that the PC term _du jour_ for redskins?
>
> It's been the standard Canadian usage for a long time, I think,
> since they're somewhat concerned about getting some things right.
It's the first nation's preferred usage, Geoff. But thank you for
proving that you're still you.
Chuq Von Rospach
> > is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
>
> ATMs. The Bank of Montreal was the first one to be on the same
> network as my bank.
I usually keep between 100-200C around with my passport between trips.
that saves me having to hassle getting cash after crossing the border.
These days, it's as easy as the ATM, and unless your bank is a bastard,
the best conversion rates are using the ATM. Ditto your credit cards. I
tend to use Amex a lot up there, they seem to have consistent and decent
conversion rates, but they're all pretty endemic.
About the only gotcha is this -- the toronto banks are all tied into the
Visa system, and the montreal banks into into mastercard. One is Plus,
one is cirrus. They don't necessarily take both, so you have to make
sure you get to the RIGHT atm for whatever network you're on. here in
the states, pretty much all ATMs take all of them, it's not as true in
canada (but improving).
And a few years ago, you had to leave downtown victoria to find a
Montreal-based bank, which is the Plus system, which is what we use.
Which was tres annoying. but now, both are easily available without much
hassle. But if you aren't paying attention, it can be a serious
surprise. (hint: to tell the difference: if the bank's primary color is
green, it's a toronto bank. red, a montreal bank. why? hell if I know).
But I use the card, carry cash for small stuff and tips and stuff, and
let the banks worry about conversions. you'll get better rates that way
than using the conversion houses in town. Unless, of course, your bank
is a bastard. check first, if they haven't already convinced you.
amalia
news:am6ih4$sgq$1...@samba.rahul.net...> >>Port Angeles is, well, not that interesting.
>
> >This raises the issue: Do I really want to stay there? A day/half
> >day on the Olympic Peninsula sounds nice, though.
>
> There is no intrinsic reason to stay in Port Angeles. However,
> it is the point where you can wake up, get on the ferry, and
> then be in Victoria by midday. Or the point you
> can go to crash after a day of hiking in the Olympics.
> For these reasons, I have sometimes stayed the night in
> Port Angeles.
>
> Steve
Hmmm, the most active thread on ba.food is on Vancouver.
I agree with Steve on the merits of a night in Port Angeles, and although
you've said you like strenuous hiking, the Hoh River Rainforest in the
Olympic National Park is certainly worth some time. There's a beautiful
meandering trail that extends a good deal beyond the tourist loop at the
Visitor's Center that will surely occupy you for a day. I've backpacked it
and hiked it and would return for both. The Hoh is very different from my
conception of a rainforest in that it's not tropical, but it is the most
outrageously lush place I've ever seen within the US -- including the
kudzu-covered South.
The following site might be useful: http://www.portangeles.org/16.html
ObFood: There used to be a place in Port Angeles where you could get a huge
plate of pan-fried abalone for nothing. It was right on the water, kind of a
divey place, but I couldn't find it last time I was there ('97). Are there
any other good seafood places on the water up there?
Have fun trip planning,
Amalia
amalia
news:chuq-F7BA54.1...@news.apple.com...
> In article <am6ie6$udt$1...@machaut.medieval.org>,> > Is the name
> > slightly different, Hotel Grand Pacific, say?
>
> yes, it is:
>
> http://www.hotelgrandpacific.com/
>
> hint: harbor view rooms are about $10C more per night, and well worth
> it. It's about the same price as the empress is, but bigger, quieter
> rooms, not nearly as stuffy, and better food. (and, as I like to say,
> you can be IN the empress for sunset, or watching the empress at
> sunset...)
Chuq, would you recommend the Empress for Afternoon Tea? We weren't
particularly girly, but when we were kids, my sisters and I thought it was
one of the coolest things ever (scones and jam for [late] lunch? what's not
to like?). But I have no idea how well the hotel or the service has held
up -- or whether that's Todd's kids' cup o' tea.
At one point in my childhood, my parents managed to take us to afternoon tea
at all the old hotels of Canada. I remember the view at Lake Louise, the rum
balls in Banff, and the flowers hanging from the baskets in Victoria.
-Amalia
Mark Mellin
> Geoff wrote:
> >ObMeg: So why is Snodfart's CalTrain shuttle called "Marguerite?"
>
> As Joebay wrote, Marguerite was the name of the horse that pulled
> the wagon transporting folks from the train station back when
> Leland Stanford Sr. walked the earth.
>
> As for those buses, the paint is brand new, but the vehicle most
> certainly aren't. The contract just got shifted, and the new
> vendor is using buses just as vomitous as the old ones,
Say what you will about your mid-peninsula buses, but I have it on
excellent authority that the most vomitous ride these days is the F-Market
Owl bus in the city.
- Mark "guessing follow-ups ought to be set to ba.transportation" Mellin
ObFood: Squid Teriyaki - Alternately skewer marinated calamari rings and
tentacles, along with pearl tomatoes. Baste with thickened secret sauce.
Grill two minutes in a covered Weber, turn, baste again, grill covered for
two more minutes. Serve over rice.
--
Mark Mellin (rhymes with) Just down the Hill from Gene
Steve Fenwick
Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> wrote:
> In article <a30dou0cfkvph55j2...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Roder <to...@well.com> wrote:
> > >Granville Island (shops,
> > >farmer's market),
> >
> > Absolutely!!
>
> Or if you're staying downtown or near the harbor, take the seabus to
> Lonsdale Quay. 90% of Granville Island's food and a lot easier to get to
> from that side of the city.
>
> I'm fond (quite fond) of Herons, in the Fairmont Waterfront. Not cheap,
> but... and the Following Sea on pacific at hornby, near where the harbor
> ferry to granville docks. not trendy, but quite good and tends to be
> less expensive.
Yeah, WTH is it with access to Granville? When the Seabus is running,
it's great, but by land to downtown? Forget it except by cab.
Then there was that memorable trip when we walked, in the rain, from
Pacific Centre, across Burrard Bridge, to Granville. Man, were we wet
and cold!
Steve
--
Steve Fenwick Anti-spammed address: steve (at) stevefenwick (dot) com
Steve Fenwick
Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> wrote:
> > > Another question: How necessary is cash on a trip like this? What
> > > is the currently preferred method for obtaining Canadian cash?
> >
> > ATMs. The Bank of Montreal was the first one to be on the same
> > network as my bank.
>
> I usually keep between 100-200C around with my passport between trips.
> that saves me having to hassle getting cash after crossing the border.
>
> These days, it's as easy as the ATM, and unless your bank is a bastard,
> the best conversion rates are using the ATM. Ditto your credit cards. I
> tend to use Amex a lot up there, they seem to have consistent and decent
> conversion rates, but they're all pretty endemic.
>
> About the only gotcha is this -- the toronto banks are all tied into the
> Visa system, and the montreal banks into into mastercard. One is Plus,
> one is cirrus. They don't necessarily take both, so you have to make
> sure you get to the RIGHT atm for whatever network you're on. here in
> the states, pretty much all ATMs take all of them, it's not as true in
> canada (but improving).
I've consistently (as recent as early 2001) had trouble with TD machines
accepting my Bank of the West and StarOne CU Visa-branded ATM cards.
OTOH, as also mentioned, Amex is great, and other banks (e.g., HKBC)
have had no problems.
I usually carry CDN$200 in cash, and a similar amount in Amex travelers'
checks (oops, cheques :) Herself and I also usually carry some US Amex
Checks for Two, because I'm still a Karl Malden fan. :)
Todd Michel McComb
Steve Fenwick <no-retur...@see-below.invalid> wrote:
>I usually carry CDN$200 in cash
When you say you carry it, you mean you find an ATM when you get
there and get some cash? I do have 3 ATM cards, but I'm not sure
I have every symbol there is among the 3.... Chasing around, trying
to find some cash doesn't seem like my idea of a good time, so
hopefully it's real simple. Obviously, I'll use a credit card for
most things.
Mean Green Dancing Machine
I think Steve's referring to the fact that many of us who go to Canada
more than once per decade keep CDN$ around in the house to bootstrap.
As for your three cards, if between them they have both Plus and Cirrus,
you're 99.5% okay.
Chuq Von Rospach
"amalia" <amaliaXe...@XattbiX.com> wrote:
> Hmmm, the most active thread on ba.food is on Vancouver.
because there's a large contingent of us who'd much rather be there....
> I agree with Steve on the merits of a night in Port Angeles, and although
> you've said you like strenuous hiking, the Hoh River Rainforest in the
> Olympic National Park is certainly worth some time.
the only problem with Hoh is that it's accessible out of forks, off the
coast area. So for the purposes of this trip, I think it's out of reach.
(and that area tends to get full fast, and I've found during the summer
season, it's difficult to find a decent room at a place that doesn't
require a 2-3 day minimum stay).
> ObFood: There used to be a place in Port Angeles where you could get a huge
> plate of pan-fried abalone for nothing. It was right on the water, kind of a
> divey place, but I couldn't find it last time I was there ('97). Are there
> any other good seafood places on the water up there?
it's definitely not the place attached to the Red Lion (crab shack?
whatever it is). We've found their food to be consistently mediocre, to
the point where we opt for Abby's pizza instead.
Steve Pope
> I do have 3 ATM cards, but I'm not sure I have every symbol
> there is among the 3....
I have one ATM card, from Wells Fargo Bank, and it has
never not worked at an ATM in Canada, or any ATM in the
U.S. for that matter.
Years ago, prior to about 1988, it *ocassionally* failed
to work at some ATM's in England, but that deficiency has
long since disappeared.
S.
Chuq Von Rospach
"amalia" <amaliaXe...@XattbiX.com> wrote:
> Chuq, would you recommend the Empress for Afternoon Tea? We weren't
> particularly girly, but when we were kids, my sisters and I thought it was
> one of the coolest things ever (scones and jam for [late] lunch?
not really. stuffy, expensive, and the food's fairly mediocre. there are
a few other places that serve better tea cheaper.
(one of which, I'll note, is the restaurant at Butchart Gardens. I
haven't done it, but it's supposed to be great).
Murchie's on government serves a tea. Fairly informal, but their tea is
now pretty much the only tea we drink (other than canadian red rose).
The Oak Bay resort serves tea.
There's one other I'm forgetting. Anne Hathaway's cottage? I don't
remember. But fi you pick up the Guide freebie in any hotel, there are a
number of places that advertise. I'd probably suggest Murchie's unless
you want the pomp and circumstance of the Empress. Maybe once for the
experience.
(can you tell I'm just not a huge fan of the Empress?)
Oh, right now, while the BC museum is doing their special exhibit
honoring the royal family (recommended, by the way; it's pretty well
done), the museum is doing tea as well, done by the Empress. Still
expensive, but another option.
> At one point in my childhood, my parents managed to take us to afternoon tea
> at all the old hotels of Canada. I remember the view at Lake Louise, the rum
> balls in Banff, and the flowers hanging from the baskets in Victoria.
boy, am I jealous. We've talked about banff and lake louise a number of
times, but we've never stayed up there, only driven through.
Chuq Von Rospach
aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote:
> I think Steve's referring to the fact that many of us who go to Canada
> more than once per decade keep CDN$ around in the house to bootstrap.
correct. If you feel paranoid, find a local currency exchange (amex
places do, I believe) and grab a bit. You can likely find an ATM just
over the border, though, and in all honesty, canadians will take $US
near the border, even if the exchange rate isn't wonderful. It's not
really an issue. I mostly want to make sure I have change to tip the
valet and bellman at the hotel when I arrive and stuff....
It's mostly convenience.
> As for your three cards, if between them they have both Plus and Cirrus,
> you're 99.5% okay.
definitely.
Steve Fenwick
mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
I get it here, at what are probably mediocre exchange rates, and
replenish as needed, usually by cashing in CDN$ travelers' cheques.
Using a credit card is a good idea, but I find I need cash for cabs,
tips, etc. Since the total amount is small, losing a couple of points is
no biggie.
ATMs in downtown Vancouver are not a problem, except (as noted) for TD
machines (which are widespread). I can't speak for Victoria, or whatever
rainforest you're ultimately headed for :)
Geoff Miller
Chuq Von Rospach <ch...@apple.com> writes:
[ "first nations" ]
> It's the first nation's preferred usage, Geoff.
They're a vanquished people; who the hell cares what they prefer?
Why is anyone bothering to kowtow to people who are undeniably on
the losing end of history? White guilt is a terrible thing...
> But thank you for proving that you're still you.
Hey, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Geoff
--
"You can't expect to be taken seriously | /"\ ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
when you're a top-posting moron." | \ / AGAINST
-- Rune Kristian Viken | X NATTERING FUCKWITS
| / \
Steve Pope
> Why is anyone bothering to kowtow to people who are undeniably on
> the losing end of history?
This seems to be what Europe, Africa, the middle east and Asia
have finally figured out about the U.S.
S.
Geoff Miller
Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> writes:
: Why is anyone bothering to kowtow to people who are undeniably on
: the losing end of history?
> This seems to be what Europe, Africa, the middle east and Asia
> have finally figured out about the U.S.
Excuse me? Seeing as how we liberated a lot of that territory
half a century ago and are now the single most powerful country
in the history of the planet, I beg to differ with that evalu-
ation.
And if you think this country is so damned evil, perhaps you could
be persuaded to move to North Korea and eat (ObFood) boiled tree
bark with your co-ideologists.
One of these days Mr. Ashcroft is going to round up people like
you and ship you off to the camps.
Peter Greenfield
Geoff Miller <geo...@u1.netgate.net> wrote in message
news:amdcf7$e...@u1.netgate.net...
>
>
> Why is anyone bothering to kowtow to people who are undeniably on
> the losing end of history? White guilt is a terrible thing...
>
The view that one stands at the "end of history" has consistently proven to
be an illusion of perspective.
It's the kind of short sightedness that leads to names like "the thousand
year Reich".
Peter
Todd Michel McComb
Peter Greenfield <greenfi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The view that one stands at the "end of history" has consistently
>proven to be an illusion of perspective.
It's sure difficult to argue with that. Anyway, I think that "First
Nations" is a good name. It's respectful (and why not be respectful
to *everyone*, unless they prove themselves an idiot?), and it
doesn't seem nearly so convoluted as some attempts.
Dennis Suchta
concept. How is this measured? Our theoretical ability to kill people?
Wouldn't Hitler's Germany be more powerful? Stalin's Russia? Maybe
influential might be a better word. But that could be argued too. What made
the US great was our desire form a more perfect union that protected our
freedom. Seems we have been forgetting that lately.
Dennis
Dave Kearns
> It's respectful (and why not be respectful
> to *everyone*, unless they prove themselves an idiot?)
>
Which groups constitute the "first nations", though? Everyone who was
here before the Europeans? The very first settlers who were supplanted
by later East Asian-based tribes? Everyone up thru the middle Asian
tribes who came along in the last millennia or three??
Nobody gets in a snit when we call the early German settlers of
Pennsylvania the "Pennsylvania Dutch". Terms are merely shorthand ways
of referring to large, disparate groups. As long as the words don't
originate as disparaging terms, what's wrong with them? Columbus used
the Italian/Spanish for "Indian" and so that's what Europeans call the
peoples who were settled in the Americas in the 16th century. What's
inherently wrong with that?
ObFood: Blue Bell is the only decent ice cream available in the US for
a reasonable price (Breyers is a close second). Blue Bell almost makes
a visit to Austin's on El Camino in MV worthwhile. Almost.
-dave
Margarita Lacabe
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com:
> Nobody gets in a snit when we call the early German settlers of
> Pennsylvania the "Pennsylvania Dutch". Terms are merely shorthand ways
> of referring to large, disparate groups. As long as the words don't
> originate as disparaging terms, what's wrong with them? Columbus used
> the Italian/Spanish for "Indian" and so that's what Europeans call the
> peoples who were settled in the Americas in the 16th century. What's
> inherently wrong with that?
It's inaccurate, confusing and they find it offensive. I don't think the
point is whether a word has a disparaging origin but a disparaging present
use - to varying degrees the term "Indian" for native American has.
--
Margarita Lacabe - ma...@lacabe.com - http://www.lacabe.com/marga/
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mommy to Michaela Libertad - http://www.mikesbaby.com/
Tim May
<dke...@nomail.to.me> wrote:
> "Todd Michel McComb" <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I think that "First Nations" is a good name.
> > It's respectful (and why not be respectful
> > to *everyone*, unless they prove themselves an idiot?)
> >
>
> Which groups constitute the "first nations", though? Everyone who was
> here before the Europeans?
First Nations = First World, those with toilet paper, running water,
computers, telephones, Starbuck's, Szechwan food, etc.
Second Nations = Second World, the striving nations. The phones often
don't work, the toilets may be squat toilets, and other mix-ins of
heathen practices.
Third Nations = Turd World. Bacteria in the water, dogs served in
tacos, slavery still a practice, no cable t.v.
Fourth Nations = Pygmies, Eskimoes, Albanians, Negroes, Wagon Burners,
and other suchlike races.
--Tim May
Chester
>First Nations = First World, those with toilet paper, running water,
>computers, telephones, Starbuck's, Szechwan food, etc.
>
>Second Nations = Second World, the striving nations. The phones often
>don't work, the toilets may be squat toilets, and other mix-ins of
>heathen practices.
>
>Third Nations = Turd World. Bacteria in the water, dogs served in
>tacos, slavery still a practice, no cable t.v.
I'm already somewhat sorry I'm asking, but, what would you, Tim-may,
label China, which has toilet paper, running water, computers,
telephones*, Starbuck's, Sichuan food up the ass, and cable TV...but,
where toilets may be squat toilets, inherently "heathen" practices,
bacteria in the water, and dogs served in different manners, though
rarely...?
Keep in mind that China is like your fantasy insofar as
bang-for-the-Western-buck goes, and adjust your evaluation
accordingly...
Chester
* Better mobile services than here, in fact.
amalia
news:3d8addfc....@news.supernews.com...
>
> * Better mobile services than here, in fact.
Like that's so freakin' hard to top. 280, one of the great ironies of the
First World.
amalia
news:J2zi9.293$v%7...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> "Todd Michel McComb" <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I think that "First Nations" is a good name.
> > It's respectful (and why not be respectful
> > to *everyone*, unless they prove themselves an idiot?)
> >
>
> Which groups constitute the "first nations", though?
>
> Pennsylvania the "Pennsylvania Dutch". Terms are merely shorthand ways
> of referring to large, disparate groups. As long as the words don't
> originate as disparaging terms, what's wrong with them? Columbus used
> the Italian/Spanish for "Indian" and so that's what Europeans call the
> peoples who were settled in the Americas in the 16th century. What's
> inherently wrong with that?
>
>
I think you're question is a fair one, as opposed to some of the temper
tantrums on the subject. But I return to Todd's point: what is inherently
wrong in being respectful, in this case by calling a people what they prefer
to be called? Is it so hard to change? Does it undermine our conception of
ourselves so utterly? If so, that's a personal problem, to be worked out in
the privacy of one's own mind.
ObFood: Blackberry sorbet. Feels good going down my sore throat.
Dave Kearns
>
> I think you're question is a fair one, as opposed to some of
> the temper tantrums on the subject. But I return to Todd's
> point: what is inherently wrong in being respectful, in this
> case by calling a people what they prefer to be called?
>
In that case, I request that all the peoples of the world should refer
to white, Anglo-Saxon-derived citizens of the USA as "The Chosen". As
an alternative, they can use whatever phrase translates from their
native tongue to English as "Those who are superior".
(And, no, I haven't converted to the TimMay School of Diplomacy).
I'll identify groups in a way that makes sense to my cosmology, and as
long as I'm not disparaging you (and I get to decide that, also) then
there's little you can say or do to make me change.
ObFood: Once you add mayo or cream cheese its no longer guacamole, its
avocado dip - no matter what it wants to be called!
-dave
Geoff Miller
Peter Greenfield <greenfi...@hotmail.com> writes:
> The view that one stands at the "end of history" has consistently
> proven to be an illusion of perspective.
While I agree that that's a valid observation in general, it doesn't
apply in this context. Or do you really consider an Indian uprising
to be credibly within the realm of possibility?
No, I think not. The American Indians are as vanquished as a people
can be, short of genocide. They made a big show of occupying Alcatraz
back in '69, but soon got bored and headed back to their reservations.
And apart from a brief interval in the early 1970s when liberal high
school English teachers were making their classes read _Bury My Heart
At Wounded Knee_, we haven't heard much from the since. Like Cpl.
Hudson said: Game over, man.
> It's the kind of short sightedness that leads to names like "the
> thousand year Reich".
Your attempt to tar my position with insinuations of latent Nazism
is pretty lame. Not to mention inaccurate; the concept of the
Thousand-Year Reich was a view toward the future, not the past.
ObFood: I've been hankering for a nice, warm piece of apple
schickelgruber lately. Maybe I'll goose-step over to the
Tyrolian Inn in Ben Lomond this evening.
Geoff
--
"Darkies? Water cannon? Why be PC when you can be right?
Geoff, you are wrong. You are *completely* wrong. You're
as wrong as you can be!" -- har...@informix.com
Todd Michel McComb
I was indicating approval for one term, not disapproval for another.
Geoff Miller
Dennis Suchta <dsu...@cablespeed.com> top-posts:
> "single most powerful country in the history of the planet" -
> interesting concept. How is this measured? Our theoretical
> ability to kill people?
Well, how would you measure *any* country's strength versus any
others? I doubt you'd disagree that Russia, say, is a more
powerful country than Luxembourg, right? Well, why is that?
Now apply the same reasoning and criteria to a comparison
involving the U.S. with any and all other countries on Earth,
and there you have it. (This algorithm is known to programmers
as a "bubble sort.")
But to answer your question directly:
Partially, in that we have more nukes than anybody else. But
mainly, it's the result of our global reach -- our ability to
enforce our will anywhere in the world. This is known among
us E-vill military types as "power projection." It involves
everything from good weapons and lots of 'em to well-trained
troops to massive air- and sealift capability to the aerial
refueling which allowed us to bomb Kosovo with Stealth bombers
based in Missouri. Is the picture beginning to come into focus?
> Wouldn't Hitler's Germany be more powerful?
They lost a war to us, if I remember correctly. That would seem
to indicate otherwise -- and we've only gotten stronger since
then.
> Stalin's Russia?
Ah, I see: you mean "kill people" to include genocide, forced
starvation, and that sort of thing. That's just silly, since
the U.S. has never shown itself to be the sort of country that
would engage in such things. I'm thinking in terms of military
power specifically, which is the most relevant criterion in
the present context.
> Maybe influential might be a better word. But that could be
> argued too.
Well, with more and more nations wittering about "cultural
imperialism" in such forms as American fashions and TV shows
and fast food and consumer goods, and what with our owning
offshore factories in many, many countries, I'm afraid it
wouldn't be much of an argument.
> What made the US great was our desire form a more perfect
> union that protected our freedom.
You're changing horses in midstream, conversationally speaking.
The topic isn't greatness but strength.
> Seems we have been forgetting that lately.
That's certainly a matter of opinion.
ObFood: MREs.