Ron Owens, John Burris, and callers discuss for an hour the most recent BART arrest captured on video:
bozo
around him.
copie
planet for the last 15 years.
He doesn't like African Americans.
Puuleeeze.
And somebody go ahead and be clever and say it's cuz I'm Not a Genuine
Black Man.
Copie
Bozo
>
> - Show quoted text -
Personally, I don't mind people getting jiggy around me in public. I
can think of things a lot worse. I watched that video a dozen times,
and I think all the germans on-board that BART car pretty much over
reacted. I believe people getting jiggy in public are far more likely
to hurt themselves before they hurt others. I've run into lots of
drunks in my time but never felt they should have their heads cracked.
I mean what's the most a stumbling rowdy bum can do if he's not behind
the wheel, piss on himself? That BART cop could have easily escorted
the "king" off the train and slammed his silly ass down on the bench
and told him time-out before escorting him into the glass. He'd have a
much better defense. If he got up or refused to sit down, then
escalate his confinement. But I think John Burris had it pegged right
on. Yeah, I know, I know, I heard all kinds of "cops" calling up and
coming out of the woodwork and regaling us with their long "billy
club" years of experience and "command presence" and all that wide-
eyed "cop shit". Yes, we do need our thugs in uniform, but I do not
for one second discount that cops are "definitely" a necessary
"evil". And the next time you feel all warm and snuggy in your house
not under water, what do you think most cops would be doing if they
weren't cops, just asking. BTW, I've gone round and round with Ronn
and other disc jockeys (yeah I call them that) about how infinitely-
more offensive a boombox-playing asshole in a moving vehicle is than a
barely audible pathetic drunk. Ronn and lots of other belligerent
assholes with amped up "music" delivery systems in their moving
vehicles think what they're doing in their vehicles is not
"threatening". Well I got news for you, IT IS. That personal space
they think is theirs, thumps and bumps its way right into my face
every fucking day and for me is far worse than any poor slightly-
annoying loud-mouthed drunk any day. Ronn on several occasions has
reiterated on the air that he "likes" to play his loud music in his
car. Well there you go. Priorities huh. In the spectrum of jiggyness,
I'll take a slur-speeched wigger of any shade over a self-righteous
asshole with 700-watts of bass amp and sub-woofer thumping and jumping
its way into my personal space any fucking day of the week thank you
very much.
-BdN-
John Slade
> Yeah. Sure. I guess that's why he's been one of my best friends on the
> planet for the last 15 years.
>
> He doesn't like African Americans.
>
> Puuleeeze.
>
> And somebody go ahead and be clever and say it's cuz I'm Not a Genuine
> Black Man.
I would never say you're not a genuine black man. However
there are some people and not all of them white who don't like
certain types of black people. First of all I'm black. I once
had a white friend who while talking to him on the phone, said,
"Well, there's black and then there's BLACK." I took that to
mean that he liked black folk like me who don't have a thick
black urban accent. Needless to say the friendship didn't last
long after that. I also know some black people who feel the same
way. They would not give the time of day to a black man with a
thick urban accent, but they have no problem with other racial
groups with accents. There are tons of black people who think
their better than black folk who don't use "proper" English. Yet
when a white person with a thick country accent speaks, they
have no problem with them.
Now I don't think Ronn or you have these kind of ignorant
feelings. But I just had to say something about this.
John
David Kaye
>"Well, there's black and then there's BLACK." I took that to
>mean that he liked black folk like me who don't have a thick
>black urban accent. Needless to say the friendship didn't last
>long after that. I also know some black people who feel the same
>way. They would not give the time of day to a black man with a
>thick urban accent, but they have no problem with other racial
>groups with accents.
You may call it an urban accent, but others call it a ghetto accent, and they
strongly dislike anything that reeks of underachievement and laziness. It's
not as if they can't learn to speak mainstream English. After all, people of
Chinese ancestry who grow up here can speak mainstream English, and they have
the added burden of having to communicate with parents in another language.
Likewise Latinos.
And from the times I worked at the old Swan's Department Store in downtown
Oakland, I noticed that a lot of black people didn't associate with ghetto
speakers, either.
>There are tons of black people who think
>their better than black folk who don't use "proper" English. Yet
>when a white person with a thick country accent speaks, they
>have no problem with them.
Huh? People thought Jimmy Carter was a hick, even though he was a nuclear
engineer in the navy. Country accents are looked down upon.
John Slade
> John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> "Well, there's black and then there's BLACK." I took that to
>> mean that he liked black folk like me who don't have a thick
>> black urban accent. Needless to say the friendship didn't last
>> long after that. I also know some black people who feel the same
>> way. They would not give the time of day to a black man with a
>> thick urban accent, but they have no problem with other racial
>> groups with accents.
>
> You may call it an urban accent, but others call it a ghetto accent, and they
> strongly dislike anything that reeks of underachievement and laziness.
Well that's just it. It's urban, it can be ghetto or not
but it's a particular accent like a Cajun accent, Baltimore
accent, New York accent or Southern accent. Nothing more,
nothing less. It's just the way people grow up speaking. I've
seen people with an urban accent go on to be college graduates
and do great things. Look at Jay-Z. I mean in the board room
nobody can underestimate his business since, yet he can speak
with a ghetto accent. As for underachievement, I don't think
that applies. Do southerners who talk with an accent
underachieve like Bush or some Senator from Mississippi?
> It's
> not as if they can't learn to speak mainstream English.
There is no such thing these days. It's about people
speaking with dialects and accents. In fact the "mainstream"
English we use here in the US, is not "proper" English like they
use in Britain.
>
> And from the times I worked at the old Swan's Department Store in downtown
> Oakland, I noticed that a lot of black people didn't associate with ghetto
> speakers, either.
But I bet those same people would have absolutely no
problem associating with a white Cajun from Louisiana. I lived
in Louisiana for a time, and when I arrived, I could barely
understand people. Very thick southern accents. I thought they
were stupid. But that's when I didn't know it was their way of
speaking. My teachers, some of who talked very country and they
were very very smart people as I went to a magnet high school.
These days I see a lot of white kids try to use the same
accent and dialects that urban blacks use.
>
>> There are tons of black people who think
>> their better than black folk who don't use "proper" English. Yet
>> when a white person with a thick country accent speaks, they
>> have no problem with them.
>
> Huh? People thought Jimmy Carter was a hick, even though he was a nuclear
> engineer in the navy. Country accents are looked down upon.
>
That's the point. How someone speaks does not the only
way to tell if they are intelligent or not. There are people
who can use "getto speak" as you call it and be a nuclear
physicist. I thin there are a couple playing football in the NFL
now. I notice that in college a lot of kids from all backgrounds
are using more and more "ghetto speak". The only problem I see
is ignorance.
Hey wait, aren't you the same person who said that you
could never trust black people because how some reacted after
the OJ trial? Correct me if that wasn't you.
John
David Kaye
> Well that's just it. It's urban, it can be ghetto or not
>but it's a particular accent like a Cajun accent, Baltimore
>accent, New York accent or Southern accent.
Those four accents you mention are also considered the accents of stupid, lazy
people. I'm not saying that the people who have them or have the black
"urban" accent are stupid and lazy, but this is the general opinion
held by people.
Mainstream French, German, and especially the North London accent (aka the
"Queen's English") are considered cultured for some reason. However, there
are accents among rural French, German, and English that are also considered
accents of the stupid and lazy. Ever hear Cockney?
Rather than fight the losing battle to make "black urban" English acceptable,
why not simply encourage people to speak the mainstream American English
accent? After all, in 300 years neither the Southern nor the Cockney accent
have been accepted as educated. Neither will "black urban". For whatever
reason there are simply some accents that don't "work".
David Kaye
> There is no such thing these days. It's about people
>speaking with dialects and accents.
Yes there is. There is a distinct mainstream English; it is the accent
used by the Dutch settlers of New York (uh, formerly known as New Amsterdam).
This is why our English sounds much more Dutch than British.
It is the accent used for the most part in radio and TV. It is the accent of
the majority of people in the cities. You know what the accent is. Don't
pretend you don't.
>In fact the "mainstream"
>English we use here in the US, is not "proper" English like they
>use in Britain.
See the Dutch reference above.
Look, I don't care how people talk, but I do know how people perceive speech,
having studied speech in high school and college, and being fascinated by
etymology.
I happen to possess the "voice of God", not because of anything innate in me
or anything I grew up with. One debating teacher told me my voice sounded
"wimpy". An announcing teacher told me my voice was "too nasal".
It was my desire to be a DJ like the guys on KFRC that I practiced and
practiced until I could develop a well-modulated voice. And believe me, it
opened the door for not only job opportunities, but also to be taken
seriously, whether it be at work or at public meetings on policy issues. I
can sit silently for an hour and all I have to do is open my mouth and say one
thing, even if it's "Could you tell me where the bathroom is?" and suddenly
everybody snaps to attention and takes me seriously.
John Slade
> John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Well that's just it. It's urban, it can be ghetto or not
>> but it's a particular accent like a Cajun accent, Baltimore
>> accent, New York accent or Southern accent.
>
> Those four accents you mention are also considered the accents of stupid, lazy
> people.
Yes they are considered that by ignorant people who don't
know better. Plenty of southern college professors talk with a
thick southern accent.
> I'm not saying that the people who have them or have the black
> "urban" accent are stupid and lazy, but this is the general opinion
> held by people.
Held by many IGNORANT people. There are lots of people now
who think all blacks do is sit around and do nothing but collect
welfare checks.
>
> Mainstream French, German, and especially the North London accent (aka the
> "Queen's English") are considered cultured for some reason.
Because they're English and ignorant people think that an
English accent equates to intelligence.
> However, there
> are accents among rural French, German, and English that are also considered
> accents of the stupid and lazy. Ever hear Cockney?
>
I've heard just about everything. Ever hear of an Indian
accent from someone who grew up speaking Urdu? Some accents are
so thick it's hard to understand yet they have a lot of tech
savvy people among them. Some of the best technical universities
in the world are in India. Many are considered better than MIT
as students put that university as their second or third choice.
> Rather than fight the losing battle to make "black urban" English acceptable,
Acceptable? It's been accepted to a great extent now. But
it's not accepted by a lot of ignorant people who don't know any
better. It's only a losing battle to try and teach ignorant
people to accept that some people speak differently. It's also a
little racism sprinkled in with that ignorance. It seems that
certain races will have their accents looked down upon because
of race. Sorry, that's just the way it is. So why should anyone
with a "ghetto accent" waste their time trying to please an
ignorant idiot?
> why not simply encourage people to speak the mainstream American English
> accent?
Because we have freedom of speech and we should never
change who we are to please ignorant jackasses.
> After all, in 300 years neither the Southern nor the Cockney accent
> have been accepted as educated.
That's because of ignorance. Only idiots consider an accent
to be an indicator of intelligence. You notice a theme here?
Have you ever seen a John Wayne movie that did really well? One
of those westerns that people loved so much? Well I heard all
kinds of language that wouldn't be considered "mainstream" but
that didn't stop people from liking those movies. What I think
you have here is a clear case of someone thinking they're better
than someone because of how they speak. BTW. Have you ever heard
General Russel Honor� speak? He was the popular general that
lead the relief effort into New Orleans. Have a listen. He
starts lecturing about a minute and a half into the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUFpHWwD028
Now he says "dis" and "dat" but only an ignorant fool would
say he's lazy and unintelligent because of that.
>Neither will "black urban". For whatever
> reason there are simply some accents that don't "work".
Complete bullshit. They do work. Just because a few people
don't like black people or the accents they use, does not speak
for the mainstream. The mainstream accepts that accent, I've
worked in offices where people with those accents did well.
I consider you to be somewhat racist because of the
ignorant things you've said in here before. I just wonder if
those kids you put the Halloween show on for know how you feel.
Hey here's a suggestion. Next time go up to their parents and
tell them not to let their kids use ghetto speak because it
might not "work".
John
John Slade
> John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> There is no such thing these days. It's about people
>> speaking with dialects and accents.
>
> Yes there is. There is a distinct mainstream English; it is the accent
> used by the Dutch settlers of New York (uh, formerly known as New Amsterdam).
> This is why our English sounds much more Dutch than British.
You mean it's more popular, but since the invention of TV
and radio. Many more people can hear other types of people
speak. That way they can accept other accents and not wallow in
their stupidity.
John
leansto...@democrat.com
In grad school, I took a class in Fourier analysis. It was taught by a
prof from Texas with a real fecal-matter-kicking accent. Smart guy,
but it was difficult to keep a straight face at times.
John Slade
Yea that Texas accent can be brutal and hard to understand.
However I lived near the boarder of Texas and I can say that the
Louisiana accent, the one around Shreveport, is very hard to
understand, it's like listening to a foreign language. When I
moved there I couldn't understand a word, when I left there and
moved back here, I was speaking just like them. I pick up
accents very easily.
John
David Kaye
> Yes they are considered that by ignorant people who don't
>know better. Plenty of southern college professors talk with a
>thick southern accent.
You just don't get it, do you? You're simply not going to change people's
perceptions. For example, black folks thought that by using the term "nigger"
they would eliminate its bite. Gay folks thought that by using the term
"queer" they would eliminate its bite. It hasn't worked, has it?
This kind of social conditioning simply does not work. It's far easier to
change with the way you meet the world than to expect the world to change how
it relates to you.
Look at the successful, respected black people in entertainment, politics, and
literature. I doubt you're going to find many "urban" accents among them.
Not even Oprah Winfrey, who grew up in extreme poverty in Mississippi.
Stratum101
The poster just doesn't get it. The airhead basso
has a handicap *because* of his artificial diction.
Take Jerry Dunphy or George Putnam or their
composite character in the form of Ted Knight's
"Ted Baxter". And Jerry Dunphy wasn't as
much of an idiot as Michael Jackson, the
South African with a teddibly English accent
who waited until a slow Christmas day to
theorize out loud that Hitler was Jewish
and "interviewed" 10,000 VIPs in cameos
lasting as long as 45 seconds.
Bob Shieffer, Jim Lehrer, Charlie Rose, Bill
Clinton, and Edward O. Wilson all have alien
Southern accents which are virtually unnoticed
except by mimics. As did Bill Faulkner or
Dallas civic benefactor Stanley Marcus,
the managing Marcus in Neiman-Marcus.
I can't imagine that Ira Glass or Garrison
Keillor or Terry Gross have bothered five minutes
with announcer's school diction.
On the other hand, George Bush has a Southern
accent, too, and Sarah Palin and J. Danforth
Quayle don't.
Ciccio
> Bob Shieffer, Jim Lehrer, Charlie Rose, Bill
> Clinton, and Edward O. Wilson all have alien
> Southern accents which are virtually unnoticed
> except by mimics. As did Bill Faulkner or
> Dallas civic benefactor Stanley Marcus,
> the managing Marcus in Neiman-Marcus.
Except for Lehrer, the accents of those people are conspicuous to me.
Heh. I remember thinking, when I saw Wilson on Rose's show, the
incongruity of seeing Jed Clapmett discussing biology. Rose makes
occasional mention of his frequent trips to his native No. Carolina,
which probably contributes to his maintaining the accent.
Tony Randall was the one who impressed me by dropping an accent with
nary a hint of where he was born and raised...Tulsa, OK.
Ciccio
John Slade
> John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes they are considered that by ignorant people who don't
>> know better. Plenty of southern college professors talk with a
>> thick southern accent.
>
> You just don't get it, do you? You're simply not going to change people's
> perceptions.
Yes you can. In fact when I had my thick southern accent,
I had no problem convincing people what I could do. I think
you're making the mistake of believing people can't learn from
their mistakes.
> For example, black folks thought that by using the term "nigger"
> they would eliminate its bite. Gay folks thought that by using the term
> "queer" they would eliminate its bite. It hasn't worked, has it?
This has nothing to do with the issue. You're talking
about one word that can be used in a good or bad context. I'm
talking about people being prejudiced based on how one speaks.
There is a huge difference. But answer your question, terms of
degradation sometimes become terms of endearment.
>
> This kind of social conditioning simply does not work. It's far easier to
> change with the way you meet the world than to expect the world to change how
> it relates to you.
You're wrong. These days more and more people are used to
different dialects and accents.
>
> Look at the successful, respected black people in entertainment, politics, and
> literature.
You mean like Jay-z? You mean like Beyonce? There you go
again, you're totally wrong here. As you may have seen the case
of General Honore. His accent is a mix of urban and Cajun. Yet
he manage to achieve the rank of general, be well respected and
has companies wanting to pay him to speak. Yes corporate people
who you think won't accept a "ghetto accent" will love to have
someone like Honore speak to their employees. You make the
mistake of many people who aren't exposed to a lot of people
from different backgrounds. I hear all the time people who are
successful in entertainment speak "ghetto" and are very very
rich. Have you ever heard a southern Senator speak? Shit, in
fact a really thick southern accent will actually help some
Senators get votes. Even George Bush used his Texas accent to
convince people he was a Texas native when he was from New
England. Look at LBJ, have you ever heard him talk? Probably won
reelection by the biggest landslide in history. I can give you
example after example after example.
> I doubt you're going to find many "urban" accents among them.
> Not even Oprah Winfrey, who grew up in extreme poverty in Mississippi.
>
I notice you ignored the example of General Honore because
it proves you dead wrong. And yet Oprah uses her country accent
sometimes on her show. I think you really need to realize that
what you're talking about is people hiding how they talk to make it.
You remember when you said that you couldn't trust black
people because some of them supported OJ being acquitted? Well
that shows prejudice and ignorance. You judged a group of people
because of how some of them felt. So a person judging someone
because of how they speak is the same thing. You have to go by
actions. You may have missed it but times have changed. Your
attitude is from the 60s. This is a new century. Please join it.
John
John Higdon
John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> You're wrong. These days more and more people are used to
> different dialects and accents.
You hope. I have been getting more and more weary of being unable to
barely understand (or not understanding) people who answer the phone at
businesses which I call. If I can't understand them, I can't do business
with them.
I get about twenty to thirty wrong numbers a day. Over half of them
mumble something that is completely unintelligible. I just hang up. Why
waste the effort telling them they have the wrong number? They won't
understand me anyway.
On the other hand, when I call somewhere (usually outside the state of
California) and the person answers in crystal clear American English, I
am profoundly impressed, and conduct business with them with pleasure.
Use to be that immigrants' job one was to learn to be Americans. Now,
that's politically incorrect and immigrants seem to go to great lengths
to show that they are only here to collect the bucks or the education,
and to hell with this country's culture.
California seems to be the worst.
--
John Higdon
+1 408 ANdrews 6-4400
AT&T-Free At Last
John Slade
Well we live in a country that has freedom of speech.
You'll get used to it or suffer if you don't. It's the way of
the world. Kaye may learn that or he may not.
John
John Higdon
John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
I have no reason to accommodate and get no benefit from accommodating
those who cannot or will not speak intelligible English. People have the
right to speak gibberish to me, that's for sure. And I have the right to
ignore them.
Ciccio
> Well we live in a country that has freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech relates to content.
> You'll get used to it or suffer if you don't. It's the way of
> the world. Kaye may learn that or he may not.
People have the right to refuse to do business with whom they have
difficulty understanding. It's the way of the world. Those who choose
to ignore that, better get used to it, or suffer if they don't.
Ciccio
John Slade
> In article <heq2gl$ouf$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Well we live in a country that has freedom of speech.
>> You'll get used to it or suffer if you don't. It's the way of
>> the world. Kaye may learn that or he may not.
>
> I have no reason to accommodate and get no benefit from accommodating
> those who cannot or will not speak intelligible English.
This silly attitude will get you nowhere. I suggest you
stay out of the IT business. As someone who is in the IT
business, I frequently talk to people from India. Some have
thick accents and some don't. I've been getting used to the
thicker accents since many companies have moved their phone
support to India.
I find that learning more dialects and getting used to
accents has helped me get more business and more friends. I'm
not a snob, I won't ignore someone just because they haven't
gotten used to English yet. Once again, the ignorance thing pops
up. Intolerant people tend to be unintelligent and that's what
should be ignored.
John
John Higdon
John Slade <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> This silly attitude will get you nowhere. I suggest you
> stay out of the IT business. As someone who is in the IT
> business, I frequently talk to people from India. Some have
> thick accents and some don't. I've been getting used to the
> thicker accents since many companies have moved their phone
> support to India.
Good for you.
> I find that learning more dialects and getting used to
> accents has helped me get more business and more friends. I'm
> not a snob, I won't ignore someone just because they haven't
> gotten used to English yet. Once again, the ignorance thing pops
> up. Intolerant people tend to be unintelligent and that's what
> should be ignored.
Snobbery has nothing to do with it. My time is valuable. It is limited.
I'm not interested in trying to decipher an infinite amount of broken
English.
I guess you do.
Oh, and I wouldn't touch the IT business for any amount of money.
Ciccio
> Snobbery has nothing to do with it. My time is valuable. It is limited.
> I'm not interested in trying to decipher an infinite amount of broken
> English.
Especially when the matter is important, I really don't want anything
getting lost in the translation.
Ciccio
"I don't trust a doctor who can hardly speak English."
-- Hyman Roth.
David Kaye
> Well we live in a country that has freedom of speech.
>You'll get used to it or suffer if you don't. It's the way of
>the world. Kaye may learn that or he may not.
I don't speak ghetto English, and a person who doesn't want to be a loser
won't speak it, either. End of story as far as I'm concerned. I have no
interest in discussing this further.
David Kaye
>Especially when the matter is important, I really don't want anything
>getting lost in the translation.
This is especially true in medicine where drug names are so similar that a
slight slip or mispronunciation can cause someone to be killed.
Stratum101
I did okay as a minor celeb in local radio when I went to
UT, and was hired partly for not having a Texas accent,
not to mention that I had a First Phone.
Talked books amid bland music where I snuck in
hifalutin but listenable stuff not on the station play
list and committed a hijink or two like playing "I've
Been Working on the Railroad" at midnight signoff
when I "accidentally" misplaced the vinyl recording
of "The Eyes of Texas" which I dearly wanted to
fling like a frisbee down the middle of Congress Ave.
What audience I had, the LBJ women among them,
was due solely to my shtik. I guess I was an Ira Glass
in training. He would've been about six years
old then.
The KVET program manager directed me
not to tell listeners that after signoff they should
move their dial up 10 KHz to WRR where Kenny
Sargent, Glen Gray's boy singer during the Big Band
Era shmoozed all night from Dallas. WRR
had a marginally audible sig in Austin when
KVET wasn't present. The two stations
directed their night time signals not to
interfere with each other in between
around Waco where the denizens take
their Genesis literally and stay wired
on caffeinated Dr. Pepper.
When I found an engineering job paying a
half buck more per hour, I bolted. Deejayism
as a career was not where it's at as far as I was
concerned. It was only a means toward the end of
paying my college expenses. I could've done what
I did in Fresno or Rochester or Butte for that matter.
The place happened to be Austin, site of a
major state university. In those days, the
city reminded me of Santa Barbara without
an ocean. It's done growed.
Ciccio
As a general rule, I won't have any physician, dentist, attorney, or
CPA whose native language is other than English.
Ciccio
If you're reading this,
thank a teacher.
If you're reading this in English,
thank a veteran.
leansto...@democrat.com
Accents? Accents! I'm just happy they are speaking English.
DonP
> Translation: Ronn doesn't like negroes and wiggers getting jiggy
> around him.
If that racist POS Burris were to get hit by a BART train ASAP we'd
all be better off. That guy is the EPITOME of WHORE LIAR...oops, I
mean LAWYER. A disgusting excuse for a [sub] human being.
leansto...@democrat.com
It is very hard to be hit by a BART train. Muni is another story.
DonP
I'd be happy with either one. Hell, he can fall off a building for all
I care. But it'd be more fitting to be hit by BART.