Reboot?
Sukant Hajra
I was having a conversation on #scala on the Freenode IRC server about a
functional programming group in Brisbane that seems to be doing some pretty
amazing stuff [1]. Evidently they started off just a couple of guys, but it's
grown into a membership of around 140 or so (definitely not all active, but
still). So I'm wondering what we can do to get a little more traction with
AFP.
[1] http://bfpg.org/
Meeting Monthly
---------------
I think we should continue to meet monthly, even if just socially with no
agenda; we won't know how to service our needs until we get to know our active
members.
My vote is still for somewhere we can set up a projector and a screen. Last we
talked, options on the table were:
- Giganews (Cody mentioned this option)
- Drillinginfo (my employer; it should be easy to get their support)
- Genuine Joe's (we just need to reserve the room)
I'd really like everyone to bring laptops to these things, so we have a
"hackathon" kind of feel.
If we're meeting socially with no agenda off the bat, my vote is for Genuine
Joe's because there's some coffee and food (no alcohol, though).
AFP's Charter
-------------
I feel there's a broad diversity of relationships with FP in a world where
mutable-state coding is ubiquitous.
Some people believe FP is a just another tool in our toolkit; we should use it
sensibly, but not broadly. For instance, when using immutable lists, our
algorithms can sometimes feel constrained as we have to think about the
performance of tail-appending, which can lead to list reversing that would not
be part of a side-effecting algorithm. Other people insist we should push
through with FP. They have a conviction (maybe faith-based, fact-based, or
both) that FP promotes code that is qualitatively better, even with the cost
dialed in.
I bring this up because it can have some influence on what this group does.
Are we just professionals meeting up to share what we've got under the loose
"this is interesting" banner. Or should we take a more grounded educational
role to help bridge the schism between those that have an FP-affinity and those
that don't?
By the way, the Brisbane group appears to accommodate both leanings with a
diversity of presentations.
Working With UT?
----------------
FP can range from a pragmatic study to something much more academic, especially
when compounded with advanced types. With respect to the academic side of FP,
has anyone reached out to the programming languages community at UT?
--
Okay, this message is long enough. Since we last met, I've continued hacking
at Scala as I have time; I suspect that even if AFP isn't meeting, we're all
pursuing an FP self-study. I'm hoping AFP can help us learn and grow faster.
-Sukant
Chance
gotten very busy suddenly, and that has cost me time that I was hoping
to spend on this group. I definitely believe there is a lot of room
for more traction, and have always seen a good response from the
growing membership when someone wants to build steam.
Indeed, there has been some interaction with PL people at UT. In
fact, last summer Thomas Finsterbusch (Phd student at UT) gave a great
talk on the functional aspects of Orc (http://orc.csres.utexas.edu/)
and his work with it. Last summer we hosted these kinds of talks in
the faculty lounge of Taylor, but since then have been meeting at
coffee shops.
If anyone is interested in participating in a steering committee, that
might help us stay a little more organized as a group on meetings,
creating a more developed charter and keep me (or any one person) from
being such a bottleneck for managing the group. I believe to gain a
little more traction we should coordinate an effort to get the word
out about AFP, I am sure we could get a little sponsorship even if
that would help. Any interest?
I think it is great to keep a conversation going about the nature and
purpose of the group. Personally, I still see this group as an
opportunity for us learn together and share stories/experiences about
attempts (successful or otherwise) to incorporate FP in a project.
Helping beginners learn, while also using the group as a sharpening
stone for the more experience FP'ers would be an ideal focus for the
group in my opinion.
Thoughts? Want to go ahead and setup another meeting? I think
having something on the calendar for Genuine Joe's in the near future
would be great.
Thanks,
Chance
Sean Duckett
On 08/01/10 at 09:22am, Sukant Hajra wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I was having a conversation on #scala on the Freenode IRC server about a
> functional programming group in Brisbane that seems to be doing some pretty
> amazing stuff [1]. Evidently they started off just a couple of guys, but it's
> grown into a membership of around 140 or so (definitely not all active, but
> still). So I'm wondering what we can do to get a little more traction with
> AFP.
M-x austinfp-reboot. Amazing how much time-flies like an arrow. It'd be great
get to that level, but let's get started.
> [1] http://bfpg.org/
>
>
> Meeting Monthly
> ---------------
>
> I think we should continue to meet monthly, even if just socially with no
> agenda; we won't know how to service our needs until we get to know our active
> members.
Monthly (or bi-monthly, as I believe was also discussed) meetings must occur
(at least) if there's going to be any proper existance.
> My vote is still for somewhere we can set up a projector and a screen. Last we
> talked, options on the table were:
>
> - Giganews (Cody mentioned this option)
>
> - Drillinginfo (my employer; it should be easy to get their support)
>
> - Genuine Joe's (we just need to reserve the room)
How's their coffee? I've gotten spoiled having a fresh bag from Anderson's
in my French press each morning.
> I'd really like everyone to bring laptops to these things, so we have a
> "hackathon" kind of feel.
I've got a pretty tolerable emacs-setup started, but I'd enjoy seeing (not
just hearding described) the toolset people are using.
> If we're meeting socially with no agenda off the bat, my vote is for Genuine
> Joe's because there's some coffee and food (no alcohol, though).
Coffee is probably better than beer if we're trying to get started down an
educational path. Save the beer for after.
> AFP's Charter
> -------------
>
> I feel there's a broad diversity of relationships with FP in a world where
> mutable-state coding is ubiquitous.
>
> Some people believe FP is a just another tool in our toolkit; we should use it
> sensibly, but not broadly. For instance, when using immutable lists, our
> algorithms can sometimes feel constrained as we have to think about the
> performance of tail-appending, which can lead to list reversing that would not
> be part of a side-effecting algorithm. Other people insist we should push
> through with FP. They have a conviction (maybe faith-based, fact-based, or
> both) that FP promotes code that is qualitatively better, even with the cost
> dialed in.
>
> I bring this up because it can have some influence on what this group does.
> Are we just professionals meeting up to share what we've got under the loose
> "this is interesting" banner. Or should we take a more grounded educational
> role to help bridge the schism between those that have an FP-affinity and those
> that don't?
I don't see how a grounded educational approach and an "Ooh! Shiny!" approach
are in conflict with each other, so long as the shiny parts aren't racoon traps.
I need both aspects in order to spend a lot of time doing something.
> By the way, the Brisbane group appears to accommodate both leanings with a
> diversity of presentations.
>
>
> Working With UT?
> ----------------
>
> FP can range from a pragmatic study to something much more academic, especially
> when compounded with advanced types. With respect to the academic side of FP,
> has anyone reached out to the programming languages community at UT?
>
>
> --
>
> Okay, this message is long enough. Since we last met, I've continued hacking
> at Scala as I have time; I suspect that even if AFP isn't meeting, we're all
> pursuing an FP self-study. I'm hoping AFP can help us learn and grow faster.
>
> -Sukant
--
Sean
Sean Duckett
> Thanks for taking the initiative Sukant!
+1
> Indeed, there has been some interaction with PL people at UT. In
> fact, last summer Thomas Finsterbusch (Phd student at UT) gave a great
> talk on the functional aspects of Orc (http://orc.csres.utexas.edu/)
> and his work with it.
Perhaps the Phd students would be interested to know of the rebooting
AFP?
> Helping beginners learn, while also using the group as a sharpening
> stone for the more experience FP'ers would be an ideal focus for the
> group in my opinion.
That sounds about right. Speaking of beginners learning, there's a
thread on Linux Agora (also mentioned on haskell-beginners) about
a _Real World Haskell_ reading group starting shortly:
http://www.linuxagora.com/vbforum/showthread.php?s=8c990bc26f3825f73a695273481dc42e&t=1207
I know we started trying to work through this last fall / spring,
but the meetings fell apart and I got bogged down with life, so I'll
be restarting my readings.
> Thoughts? Want to go ahead and setup another meeting? I think
> having something on the calendar for Genuine Joe's in the near future
> would be great.
Yes, I think it's time to schedule something. Reading the previous
discussions of meetings times, it looks like most people are available
on either Thursday evenings or Saturday evenings; the first Saturday
was mentioned as a good regular meeting time, with a less formal
gathering to be scheduled at some other point within the month.
If we were to interpret that literally, we'd be meeting at Genuine
Joe's this Saturday (7th of August) evening (or mid-afternoon?).
Does that work, or should we shoot for the last weekend of the month?
--
Sean
cody koeninger
On Aug 5, 10:06 am, Sean Duckett <sduck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I think it's time to schedule something. Reading the previous
> discussions of meetings times, it looks like most people are available
> on either Thursday evenings or Saturday evenings; the first Saturday
> was mentioned as a good regular meeting time, with a less formal
> gathering to be scheduled at some other point within the month.
probably be better travel-wise, getting across town immediately after
work might be tricky for some people. I think mid-afternoon is
probably going to better attended than evenings, but maybe thats just
me.
As far as hackathon, I think a "setup _ (insert popular FP language
here) in your dev environment" type of event might be interesting,
comparable to linux install parties etc.
Sukant Hajra
>
> On Aug 5, 10:06 am, Sean Duckett <sduck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes, I think it's time to schedule something. Reading the previous
> > discussions of meetings times, it looks like most people are available
> > on either Thursday evenings or Saturday evenings; the first Saturday
> > was mentioned as a good regular meeting time, with a less formal
> > gathering to be scheduled at some other point within the month.
>
> +1 for regular monthly meetings at genuine joe's. Saturdays would
> probably be better travel-wise, getting across town immediately after
> work might be tricky for some people. I think mid-afternoon is
> probably going to better attended than evenings, but maybe thats just
> me.
I /just/ called Genuine Joe's to make sure the room wasn't booked up on
Saturday. There's a group that has it in the morning, so just grabbed a block
from 2-3PM. Does that sound all right to everyone? I can always call back and
move it.
> As far as hackathon, I think a "setup _ (insert popular FP language here) in
> your dev environment" type of event might be interesting, comparable to linux
> install parties etc.
This sounds good to me too. I think it's one of those natural things to do
since a lot of us are coming from different languages and environments. And if
the conversation shifts, I'm fine with that too.
Also, I'm going to buy "austinfp.org" and hook it up to a free Google Apps
account. Then we'll get a calendar and some other silly stuff that we have the
option of using like Google Sites. Google Apps + GitHub + this Google Group =
pretty much all the infrastructure I think we could want in the short term.
But the most important thing I want is a Calendar on an account designed for
multiple people to manage.
-Sukant
Sean Duckett
> Excerpts from Cody Koeninger's message of Thu Aug 05 13:16:11 -0500 2010:
> >
> > probably be better travel-wise, getting across town immediately after
> > work might be tricky for some people. I think mid-afternoon is
> > probably going to better attended than evenings, but maybe thats just
> > me.
>
> I /just/ called Genuine Joe's to make sure the room wasn't booked up on
> Saturday. There's a group that has it in the morning, so just grabbed a block
> from 2-3PM. Does that sound all right to everyone? I can always call back and
> move it.
That's fine by me. I usually spend a heavy portion of Saturdays on a bike, but
I think I can make a minor exception once a month. AFAICT, there's only one
Genuine Joe's location, which is at the corner of W. Anderson & Hardy, right?
> > As far as hackathon, I think a "setup _ (insert popular FP language here) in
> > your dev environment" type of event might be interesting, comparable to linux
> > install parties etc.
>
> This sounds good to me too. I think it's one of those natural things to do
> since a lot of us are coming from different languages and environments. And if
> the conversation shifts, I'm fine with that too.
I'll have my laptop and a bunch of questions, I'm sure. (Let's see...Haskell,
Scala, Clojure...and the Emacs modes and such for each).
> Also, I'm going to buy "austinfp.org" and hook it up to a free Google Apps
> account. Then we'll get a calendar and some other silly stuff that we have the
> option of using like Google Sites. Google Apps + GitHub + this Google Group =
> pretty much all the infrastructure I think we could want in the short term.
> But the most important thing I want is a Calendar on an account designed for
> multiple people to manage.
That'd be just dandy; I'll chip in for some of the infrastructure cost (DNS and
GitHub are pretty darn inexpensive, IIRC.)
--
Sean
Sukant Hajra
>
> That's fine by me. I usually spend a heavy portion of Saturdays on a bike, but
> I think I can make a minor exception once a month. AFAICT, there's only one
> Genuine Joe's location, which is at the corner of W. Anderson & Hardy, right?
Yup, that's the only one: http://genuinejoecoffee.com/
See everyone there who can make it. I know this is all short-notice, so I'm
pretty sure we'll meet again sooner than later, maybe in two weeks, to give
more people time to manage their schedules. In the meantime, I'm happy to meet
up with whomever can make it out Saturday.
-Sukant
the Edward Blevins
> That sounds about right. Speaking of beginners learning, there's a
> thread on Linux Agora (also mentioned on haskell-beginners) about
> a _Real World Haskell_ reading group starting shortly:
>
> http://www.linuxagora.com/vbforum/showthread.php?s=8c990bc26f3825f73a695273481dc42e&t=1207
>
> I know we started trying to work through this last fall / spring,
> but the meetings fell apart and I got bogged down with life, so I'll
> be restarting my readings.
I never made it to any of the earlier meetings, but I would be
very interested in going through Real World Haskell with the
group.
--
the Edward Blevins <thed...@barsoom.net> (512) 394-4284
Today is Boomtime, the 71st day of Confusion in the YOLD 3176
Joel Crisp
The generic functional graph stuff in Haskell is a good example.
Do you need contributions for the room/domain?
Joel
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Sukant Hajra
>
> From my perspective a very useful thing would be an overview of pure
> functional equivalents of standard data structures; coming from a
> scheme/C/java background that is one area it seems pure functional
> programming is very different.
>
> The generic functional graph stuff in Haskell is a good example.
I'm all for this too. One thing I'd like to get is some kind of wiki up where
we can post ideas and stuff. There was talk about reading "Purely Functional
Data Structures" in a previous thread. I don't have a copy yet, but maybe it
would be a good read after Real World Haskell?
Also, I wasn't clear what Linux Agora is. Was the idea that our group would
collaborate or synchronize with theirs?
> Do you need contributions for the room/domain?
The domain is probably too cheap to bother about; I haven't bought it yet.
If you get any food or drinks on Saturday, make sure to tell the guy/girl at
the register that you're with Austin Functional Programmers, and whatever you
buy will go towards the room.
The cost is $25 for the hour, but they're normally kind about calling it "close
enough" so long as enough people get drinks or food.
-Sukant
Chance
Scala release I have been working towards that happens this afternoon,
hopefully freeing up my schedule a good deal for the near term.
The calendar is a great follow-through from the last discussion -
thanks again for the help! I think a coordinated calendar has been
missing, and would really get the engine going. I also think we
would benefit a lot from increasing our membership at this point.
Maybe I can take a look at some avenue's for getting the word out
while also pointing people to the new infrastructure. Sukant - do I
have your cell number? If we can exchange (privately) I would like to
coordinate with you on the infrastructure setup.
Is there still any interest in getting some people to give talks to
the group? If we use gen joe's as a venue, I think it should be easy
to set them up. Sounds like many of us have office space at this
point we could volunteer (I certainly do). I had lunch with Ian
Clark yesterday, and I am sure he would be up for giving a talk on
Swarm (although probably not in August).
Thanks again!
Chance
Joel Crisp
Joel
Sukant Hajra
>
> Some good conversations today. I had to leave before the meeting broke up,
> but was there a conclusion on future direction and meeting times?
Hi Joel,
There was broad support for meeting every other week at the same time and place
(Genuine Joe's Coffee Shop @ 2PM). So I believe that sets our next meetup on
August 21.
Also, I'm going to get that calendar and wiki up to help the group
self-organize. I'll post back as soon as that's up.
For those that didn't make it, conversations were pretty much all over the map.
We had some introductions. Cody typed out some small snippets to illustrate
graces and problems associated with the Option monad in Scala (an analog of
Haskell's maybe monad). Duke showed some Scala code he's using in a web app
he's writing. That code also uses the Option monad as well as Scala implicits
for a bit of dependency injection.
At the end, there was some discussion (Joel, after you left) about next time
following through on Sean's idea for an "install-fest" to set up a good working
environment for some FP languages. So some languages on the table are Scala,
Haskell, Clojure, F#. Here's some ideas for what to show:
- build systems that manage library dependencies
- test frameworks and runners
- any scaffolding to make things easier
- kinks, bugs, and workarounds
- some editor foo
- a programming workflow
Before we meet, it would be great if people that are in a position to show
something could post to the list of applications to install before hand, so
we're not all spinning our wheels downloading applications. For Scala, a lot
can be done with just a late-version JDK installed and also a single executable
sbt-launch-0.7.4.jar, but I'm sure Duke, Cody, and I will post more about that
later. And really, that's the kind of thing we should have up on a wiki
anyway, so I'll work on that (slacking right now, sorry).
And if we get through the "install-fest" portion pretty fast, perhaps we can do
some small problem just to get our feet wet in a foreign language. There's
lots of options (code contest problems, Project Euler, etc).
I'm glad we got AFP rebooted; it looks like everyone's got some great things to
contribute.
-Sukant
Chance
Unfortunately I will be traveling on the 21st so I won't make that one
either - but I will be sure to make the very next one.
In other news, I am preparing an F# talk to give the austin dev
roundtable this Wednesday and will give an intro talk the following
week to a user group in Fort Worth. Since I have all of this F#
content prepared it would be fairly easy to repackage it for the
group. If anyone is interested in an intro talk (that would go from
setup to code to example solution) then please let me know and I will
setup a time. This is a general FP group - (as opposed to an F# group)
so I will probably keep the concepts to general FP and interop -
rather than .NET specific topics. The goal being to pinpoint F#'s
position in the family of FP related languages.
Also, Ian Clarke said he would be happy to give the talk on Swarm
(Scala) in the near future. This would probably be a similar
presentation to the keynote he gave last September, but should be an
accessible forum for Q&A so if you are looking to get involved with
the project (or just curious about the hype) you can chat with him
directly. If you are interested please let me know so I can get a
rough idea of headcount.
Thanks again Sukant for all of the enthusiasm - really great to see so
much activity!
Chance