What a Surprise...
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
As a memorial to the Australian victims of the Oct.12th bombing in Bali, the
Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I guess
only the Christians who died matter. All those people who aren't Christians
or don't believe in god apparently don't deserve any kind of
recognition...after all if you aren't a Christian then you aren't a human
being.... and they are all burning in hell anyway.
And just like Sept.11, the fact that the attack was religious bases is
completely ignored so they can take advantage of the emotion around the
tragedy to force their own ancient fairy tales on the rest of society.
It make me so mad I could scream.
Aaron
"Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives" <cj...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:3e5f1081$0$9533$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"Aaron" <bu...@burp.com> wrote in message
news:3e5f2d3a$0$13158$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Piss off heathen.
Thank you for proving exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing but hatred,
ignorance and discrimination. Your type of religion belongs in the gutter
with all the other insane old derelicts.
zaphy
Knives" <cj...@optusnet.com.au> regurgitated:
>As a memorial to the Australian victims of the Oct.12th bombing in Bali, the
>Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I guess
>only the Christians who died matter.
Keep this crap off aus.tv, idiot.
Hugh Young
>Piss off heathen.
Well of course, warmth and tolerance like that makes us want to
convert to Christianity immediately.
The_Good_Matthew_G
errr
tell the other religions they can do whatever they want
JPG
wrote:
Why shouldn't someone speak out about the hi-jacking of memorials by
christers, moron.
Robibnikoff
>
>Piss off heathen.
My, my - How "christian" of you.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
Delighted Member of SMASH
#1557
Aaron
"Hugh Young" <hu...@buGARzz.neBAGEt.nz> wrote in message
news:3e5f3204...@news.buzz.net.nz...
Biggus the Great
Nice troll though.........
And no Im not christian. I have my own one.
Birdism.....
Bird V1 Chapter1 FUCK EM>
zaphy
...because it's got fuck-all to do with Australian television, that's
why, numb nuts.
Keep it to your own groups.
quibbler
bu...@burp.com says...
> Piss off heathen.
Yet another xer pissing on the graves of victims of fanatical religious
violence. But hey, at least the cross is wooden. Maybe some bright lad
will discover that this makes it rather flammable. <wink, wink, nod,
nod>
>
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to
evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith
is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the
lack of evidence." (Richard Dawkins)
quibbler
bu...@burp.com says...
> And that's my problem how, infidel?
It's your problem because your religion makes you a stupid asshole, as
you have so amply demonstrated with your christinsanity inspired
invective. He's dead. Get the fuck over it. Get over your own massive
ego too, you pathetic, top-posting little turd. Being an infidel is a
badge of honor if it makes us different from you.
BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
Christopher Morse
The Australian Consulate isn't trying to say that all non-christians don't
deserve recognition... it's just that in their opinion, the best to recognize
everyone, despite their religion, is with a christian symbol. Agreed, they
should recognize that non-christians won't appreciate their efforts all that
much. So while their intelligence in this matter may be a bit lacking, at least
their intentions are in the right place.
- Chris
Mark E. Daly
Incorrect Science has no faith. Faith is acceptance without questioning
or proof. In science, we test everything that is possible to test. Those
things that are impossible to test at the current time, we interpolate
probable effects of it exposed to certain conditions and test for those
effects. Science is the exact opposite of faith, or acceptance with
proof or at least some data confirming the effects of the theory. Take
the Big Bang theory, there is no way to test that theory, however you
can interpolate the effects of time on superheated plasma as required by
the theory, the probable forms of early galaxies, the forms of later
galaxies, The results of collisions of galaxies, etc. All these can be
tested and their existence confirmed by astronomers as interpolated from
the theory. There are holes in the theory observations and clusters that
can not be extrapolated from the theory. these are the holes that the
modern day astronomers are working for a theory that explains all the is
current explained by the old theory, as well as explain those
observation that can not be explained by the old theory. Science never
does anything on faith, nor does it ever produces any form of truth.
Because everything in science is the current knowledge, as we learn and
discover more about our world, science changes to reflect the new
knowledge.
M. Daly
PSB wrote:
> quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:MPG.18c94abf340c33bd989a24
> @news.cis.dfn.de:
>
>
>>"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to
>>evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith
>>is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the
>>lack of evidence." (Richard Dawkins)
>
>
> Even scientists have faith, and in fact rely on it.
Lea Beater
news:MPG.18c94abf3...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
> present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
> they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
Quite possibly the most stupid, ignorant thing I've ever read on Usenet.
Congratulations, you've compelled me to forfeit my faith in atheism...
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"zaphy" <todds...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:1gcu5vg76qn3n5lg9...@4ax.com...
Awww how sweet of you.
It was however my mistake. I did that post in a hurry and accidently added
the wrong newsgroup. Sorry about that. But some of the idiot fundo's in
aus.tv have added spice to the conversation.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"The_Good_Matthew_G" <.> wrote in message
news:apdu5vget93hps4ea...@4ax.com...
Oh so the government and government money only goes towards the Christians
and the non-christians have to pay their own way huh. That's government
endorsement of one particular religion which is a fundamental violation of
the basics of democracy. Despite the best efforts of the Christian fanatics
in society and government, Australia is a secular country and any memorial
to Australian citizens should also be secular.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"Christopher Morse" <matt...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3E5F9E36...@northwestern.edu...
>
>
> "Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives" wrote:
>
> > As a memorial to the Australian victims of the Oct.12th bombing in Bali,
the
> > Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I
guess
> > only the Christians who died matter. All those people who aren't
Christians
> > or don't believe in god apparently don't deserve any kind of
> > recognition...after all if you aren't a Christian then you aren't a
human
> > being.... and they are all burning in hell anyway.
> >
> > And just like Sept.11, the fact that the attack was religious bases is
> > completely ignored so they can take advantage of the emotion around the
> > tragedy to force their own ancient fairy tales on the rest of society.
> >
> > It make me so mad I could scream.
>
> The Australian Consulate isn't trying to say that all non-christians don't
> deserve recognition... it's just that in their opinion, the best to
recognize
> everyone, despite their religion, is with a christian symbol.
Which is wrong! It's spitting on the life and memory anyone who isn't a
bible believing cross-kisser. If I had been one of the victims in Bali, it
would have been as insulting as taking a dump on my body then putting it out
on public display. Between 15 and 25 percent of the Australian population
are either atheist, agnostic, free thinkers or just simply have no
religion...that's at least 5 million people denied a relevant memorial to
look to and statistically about 20 victims ignored. The memorial should
have been designed to represent every victim...not just those that have been
brainwashed to believe in an ancient dead hippy.
Agreed, they
> should recognize that non-christians won't appreciate their efforts all
that
> much. So while their intelligence in this matter may be a bit lacking, at
least
> their intentions are in the right place.
Their intention is to Christianise society via the back door exploiting the
emotions of a terrible tragedy (one caused by religion) to do so. Don't
imagine anything done by government or the public service is ever done
sincerely or with good intentions. Everything they do is for their own
agenda.
>
>
> - Chris
>
Unknown
So tell the other, smaller, religions to do something about and stop
whinging
Steve Mading
: "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
If you call atheism a faith, you probably aren't an atheist, because you
show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
quibbler
says...
> "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.18c94abf3...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> > BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
> > present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
> > they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
>
> Quite possibly the most stupid, ignorant thing I've ever read on Usenet.
Oh, how charming. He uses the same unoriginal, one line comment that the
rest of the know-nothing dittoheads use. It appears to be lost on you
and the rest of your drooling cadre that your formulaic assertion is
completely lacking in justification and therefore worthless. Didn't your
fucking middle school English teacher tell you that you need to back up
what you say with evidence, you pathetic shit wit! Oh wait, you probably
didn't make it that far in school. That's why it doesn't occur to you
that other people don't know or care what you have read on Usenet --
although I suspect that you need someone else to help you read the multi-
syllabic words since you don't appear to have purchased that installment
of hooked on phonics yet.
Despite your sound and fury, my comment remains factual and unchallenged.
You lose by default, since you failed to produce any logically valid
objection to it. Xers and mussies are forever labelling anyone who is
not like them as "infidels". Hypochristians, like the one I responded
to, don't even appreciate that they undermine their case against Muslims
by using the same sort of rhetorical tactics.
>
> Congratulations, you've compelled me to forfeit my faith in atheism...
You're not supposed to have faith in atheism. Thanks for playing.
Now kindly FOAD.
Christopher Morse
I'm sorry you feel that way. I agree that the Australian consulate should have
chosen something else. I agree that good intentions and a buck fifty will get
you a cup of coffee. I would not feel insulted, however, as long as the mistake
was made out of good intentions. They are not trying to upset those of us who
don't agree with them just for kicks. I don't get upset everytime I hear someone
say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't get upset when someone says
"God bless you" when I sneeze. There is no reason to feel insulted when the
intentions are good. Sure those people might be ignorant, but that doesn't mean
they think that "only the Christians who died matter."
>
> Agreed, they
> > should recognize that non-christians won't appreciate their efforts all
> that
> > much. So while their intelligence in this matter may be a bit lacking, at
> least
> > their intentions are in the right place.
>
> Their intention is to Christianise society via the back door exploiting the
> emotions of a terrible tragedy (one caused by religion) to do so. Don't
> imagine anything done by government or the public service is ever done
> sincerely or with good intentions. Everything they do is for their own
> agenda.
I agree they are doing things for their own agenda, but I don't beleive that
agenda is "to Christianise society via the back door exploiting the emotions of
a terrible tragedry to do so." Their agenda is to keep the majority of the
public pleased with them so they can keep their jobs, and as you said only 15 to
25 percent "are atheist, agnostic, free thinkers or just simply have no
religion". That leaves the vast majority of the people with a belief in god, and
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those are Christian.
- Chris
Dr. Smartass
> Piss off heathen.
Piss up a rope, philistine.
--
Doc Smartass-=-=-aa# 1939-=-=-BAAWA Knight
Feb. 1, 2003...there are seven new stars in the sky tonight.
"A scorching blast of golden fire / As it slowly leaves the ground
It tears away with a mighty roar / As the air is shattered by that awesome
sound!"
--Rush, "Countdown" (Columbia's first launch)
Gary Rockley
These are thoughtful words, Chris, and I wouldn't criticize you on
your intentions. However, it's unfortunate that those who evidence
religion (mostly predicated on their god(s) being the only true
god(s)) could not have exhibited the same degree of consideration and
tolerance in this particular instance.
As it applies to the pledge, the 'under god' aspect is completely lost
on theists as a source of contention. A truly tolerant society would
either remove it or replace it with "under god, gods, or no god or
gods". It begs the question, could a citizen be considered less of a
patriot and therefore be placed under suspicion for not saying 'under
god'? This is certainly the stated opinion of G. Bush senior and V.P.
candidate Liebermann.
Although it may, in reality, have little practical ramification, one
wonders how other such pledges affect real events. For example, if I
as a witness at a trial declined to swear on the bible and say "so
help me god", but instead requested to 'affirm', would my testimony
be treated with less consideration by the jury?
These are the reasons that separation of church and state are
important. It also the reason that objecting to an implied state
sanctioned religion is important.
Gary
Aaron
HTH
ps, militant atheist are as bad as the militant religious. The original
poster's comments are as pathetic as bin Ladens finest diatribe.
"quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.18c9c3b34...@news.cis.dfn.de...
quibbler
bu...@burp.com says...
> You didn't respond to a "hypochristian", you just got trolled.
See you forgot about the whole "I don't give a shit" factor.
> ps, militant atheist are as bad as the militant religious. The original
> poster's comments are as pathetic as bin Ladens finest diatribe.
ps. simpletons frequently like to condemn militants of all stripes with
a single clumsy brush stroke. Not that I am a militant mind you, but at
least militant atheists have a more objectively verifiable case of being
a persecuted minority. Xers stretch all credibility by trying to pretend
that they are abused when in fact they are in the majority by a huge
margin and have access to much more financial and political clout. In
the future don't assume that just because someone is mad as hell and not
going to take it any longer that they must necessarily be wrong or
misguided.
quibbler
mic...@thelastchurch.borg says...
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 01:05:25 +0000 (UTC), Steve Mading
> <mad...@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote:
> >If you call atheism a faith, you probably aren't an atheist, because you
> >show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
> >
> evidence of things unseen.
At least attribute the quote to paul you plagiarist. However, the
asserted definition laughable, regardless of who said it. One can easily
hope for things because they are probable without having blind faith.
For that matter one can hope for things that one doesn't believe are
likely to come true at all. So the first part of the definition is a
complete non-starter. Furthermore, faith, especially of the blind
variety, has nothing to do with evidence. It is about being convinced of
something, not about needing evidence. Faith certainly is not any type
of evidence itself of the thing in which one believes. This merely an
attempt to introduce circular reasoning.
Mark K. Bilbo
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 01:05:25 +0000 (UTC), Steve Mading
> <mad...@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>If you call atheism a faith, you probably aren't an atheist, because you
>>show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
>>
> Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things
> unseen.
She said that?
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
--H. L. Mencken
naked_ape
"Steve Mading" <mad...@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:b3p10l$n6q$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...
Wouldn't atheism be the faith (belief) that there isn't a theist God, a
supreme being separate from the creation it is supposedly responsible for?
Ape:)
naked_ape
"Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives" <cj...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:3e5f1081$0$9533$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
the
> Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I guess
> only the Christians who died matter. All those people who aren't
Christians
> or don't believe in god apparently don't deserve any kind of
> recognition...after all if you aren't a Christian then you aren't a human
> being.... and they are all burning in hell anyway.
>
> And just like Sept.11, the fact that the attack was religious bases is
> completely ignored so they can take advantage of the emotion around the
> tragedy to force their own ancient fairy tales on the rest of society.
>
> It make me so mad I could scream.
Just curious: What sort of a memorial would you erect? Ape;)
naked_ape
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:1fb06vs96jg0e77d9...@4ax.com...
> >show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
> >
> evidence of things unseen.
You mean religious faith, right?
Ape, who has faith in myself, as well as a few other things.)
Mark K. Bilbo
No. Atheism is lacking belief in gods. It's not having "faith" in
anything. It's the reverse.
naked_ape
"Christopher Morse" <matt...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3E5F9E36...@northwestern.edu...
>
>
Just curious, does anyone know that the Australians who died in Bali weren't
all Christians? Is it a fair assumption to assume they were? Ape;)
Gary Rockley
No.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. It postulates no position
beyond the notion that gods are unproven. Simple research in any
dictionary would have told you this.
Gary
Gary Rockley
I'm sorry to have to imply your lack of intellect twice in five
minutes but, obviously, one that is not specific to any religion.
Gary
Gary Rockley
No. Just 'Faith'. The dictionary definition.
Try doing some research by either reading a dictionary or going to
www.dictionary.com
Aren't words fun?
Gary
Nasal Squid
news:b3or25$1oekak$1...@ID-151933.news.dfncis.de...
LOL @ "faith in atheism".
Well done Lea - you even got the pretentious dick to reply! Gold Star.
Nasal Squid
> bu...@burp.com says...
> > And that's my problem how, infidel?
>
> It's your problem because your religion makes you a stupid asshole, as
> you have so amply demonstrated with your christinsanity inspired
> invective. He's dead. Get the fuck over it. Get over your own massive
> ego too, you pathetic, top-posting little turd. Being an infidel is a
> badge of honor if it makes us different from you.
>
> BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
> present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
> they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
"Your lily white asses"?
Unless by "your", you were referring to the collective of humankind, I think
you'll find that the "jebus giblets" consisted of many muslims, black asses
and other assorted religious and cultural demographics than your simple
stereotype implied.
I don't imagine the "us" you speak for would be too thrilled by this shite
you troll on about. Don't know about infidels, but you're clearly an
imbecile.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"Aaron" <bu...@burp.com> wrote in message
news:3e602db2$0$13152$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> You didn't respond to a "hypochristian", you just got trolled.
>
> HTH
>
> ps, militant atheist are as bad as the militant religious. The original
> poster's comments are as pathetic as bin Ladens finest diatribe.
>
Oh please explain that assertion oh enlightened one. I said that a
government office putting up a Christian memorial which automatically
excludes any victim or mourner who isn't a Christian is a bad thing. Please
explain how that can be compared to the ravings of an insane and murderous
religious fanatic...or was it just another bit of xtian hand waving?
naked_ape
"Gary Rockley" <g...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E605484...@attbi.com...
No need to be sorry. I was just fishing for an idea for a memorial that
wasn't religious. I apparently asked the wrong guy.)) Ape;)
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
> I agree they are doing things for their own agenda, but I don't beleive
that
> agenda is "to Christianise society via the back door exploiting the
emotions of
> a terrible tragedry to do so." Their agenda is to keep the majority of the
> public pleased with them so they can keep their jobs, and as you said only
15 to
> 25 percent "are atheist, agnostic, free thinkers or just simply have no
> religion". That leaves the vast majority of the people with a belief in
god, and
> I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those are Christian.
So only the majority deserve to have their rights or feelings considered at
the cost of the non-believers? Did you know that in the U.S. when slavery
was abolished, that the majority of the population supported slavery? Does
that mean that slavery is O.K. because that's what the majority wanted?
Being secular means that everyone of every religion and of no religion is
covered. A secular memorial represents 100% of the population...a Christian
one covers far less. 100% is a lot more than 75%, give or take. That
statistic only covers people who didn't classify themselves as
non-religious...it doesn't cover lapsed, non-Christian religions or people
who didn't answer the question. In reality less than 12% of the Australian
population are church goers. It also makes it a bit shaky when you consider
the only reason why so many people still say they believe in some kind of
God is because of thousands of years of brainwashing and
indoctrination...generation after generation of it until people are unable
to take that final step away from theism, despite being fully, rationally
aware of how absurd it is to take the very concept seriously.
>
> - Chris
>
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"naked_ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b3pk3a$1o9dso$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
No it's not. One in four or five Australians doesn't even believe in God,
let alone those of non-Christian religions. Almost 90 Australians died in
Bali, most of them participating in what traditional Christians would
consider "depraved debauchery" (i.e.. having fun). It's as absurd as
assuming the every who died in the WTC was a theist...(something Dubya Shrub
Jr has done, so you know it's dumb).
>
>
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
Something proud and lively but with a sense of irreverence and
whimsy....something just like the young fun loving Aussies who died.
Something with no religious reference at all.
>
>
Gary Rockley
No, I don't think you were. You were fishing for a response that
would allow you to argue for a religious shrine or at least one that
would justify your particular faith. You asked the right guy but I
responded instead. Not that I think Clayton's response would be much
different. Any more clever questions before we are done?
Gary
naked_ape
SNIP
> > > Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the
> > > evidence of things unseen.
> >
> > You mean religious faith, right?
> > Ape, who has faith in myself, as well as a few other things.)
>
> No. Just 'Faith'. The dictionary definition.
>
> Try doing some research by either reading a dictionary or going to
> www.dictionary.com
>
> Aren't words fun?
>
> Gary
I was in the Marines, Gary, and our motto was Semper Fidelis (Always
Faithful). Are you saying its meaning was religious? Ape;)
Nasal Squid
> > > It make me so mad I could scream.
> >
> > Just curious: What sort of a memorial would you erect? Ape;)
>
> I'm sorry to have to imply your lack of intellect twice in five
> minutes but, obviously, one that is not specific to any religion.
So it's to be a wooden effigy of Maryann from Gilligan's Isle then. I doubt
she could enrage even this gang of hyped up fools...
naked_ape
"Mark K. Bilbo" <not...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.03.01....@nowhere.com...
> On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:20:30 +0000, naked_ape wrote:
>
> >
> > "Steve Mading" <mad...@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote in message
> > news:b3p10l$n6q$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...
> >> In talk.atheism Lea Beater <le...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> : "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> : news:MPG.18c94abf3...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> >> :> BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in
> >> :> the present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which
is
> >> :> why they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus
> >> :> giblets.
> >>
> >> : Quite possibly the most stupid, ignorant thing I've ever read on
> >> : Usenet.
> >>
> >> : Congratulations, you've compelled me to forfeit my faith in
atheism...
> >>
> >> If you call atheism a faith, you probably aren't an atheist, because
you
> >> show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
> >
> > Wouldn't atheism be the faith (belief) that there isn't a theist God, a
> > supreme being separate from the creation it is supposedly responsible
for?
> > Ape:)
>
> No. Atheism is lacking belief in gods. It's not having "faith" in
> anything. It's the reverse.
Have you ever heard the Pantheist's definition of God? Ape;)
naked_ape
I'm more interested in what you believe, Gary, and I'd like to also know why
you are so passionate about your disbelief. .. Ape;)
Gary Rockley
You really need to invest in a dictionary.
Faithful and faith have two different connotations. Fidelis in this
regard means loyal - in the same way that being faithful to ones
spouse implies loyalty. It does not mean that you are shacked up with
Athena.
Gary
naked_ape
I'm an Apeist, Gary, so if I were to have a shrine erected in my memory, one
of a human simian would do. .. Ape;)
naked_ape
naked_ape
Like I said earlier, I have faith in myself, but no, not in a religious way.
The definition in the dictionary allows for that, even though you apparently
don't.)) Ape;)
Gary Rockley
A nice piece of baiting that will get you nowhere. I provided you
with a factual statement - by its nature it is devoid of passion.
Factual statements have this quality because, unlike faith, they can
not be disputed.
That you realize this and seek to wander off on a theistic tangent
aimed at soliciting a belief statement is questionable.
Although you misunderstood what atheism is, you don't have to get all
defensive. You could just as easily say that you misunderstood and
leave it at that.
Gary
Gary Rockley
This would still be a belief centric shrine. We would not, after all,
erect a stick of celery for a vegetarian.
If a memorial for the sake of a memorial is required, perhaps the the
best example of a memorial that exists anywhere in the world is the
Vietnam Memorial in DC. Speaking as an atheist with no belief in the
afterlife, I could live with just a block of black granite with my
name on it.
Gary
Gary Rockley
Actually, you said you have faith in yourself and _undefined_ 'other
things'. Any one of which could be theistic things.
Faith in ones self is also something of a misnomer because you are now
really talking about self confidence. As an example, you may have
faith (or confidence) in your own abilities to say, close a deal,
defend yourself or drive really fast in traffic - all the the things
I'm confident about because I have experience in this regard and
confidence in my abilities.
However, faith in-self as a definition of personal confidence does not
extend to divine faith as it relates to miracles or belief structures
that, for example, rely on prayer to cure disease. Also, faith in-self
will not allow you to do something that you have no prior expectations
for.
In this regard, Michael's prior post was unambiguous. Unlike your
mis-representation of atheism. Now, it may just be that you
misunderstood atheism and were not trying to set up a theistic rant
when questioning Michael. If this is the case then I'll concede that
my prior comments were too harsh. However, absent something from you
confirming a lack of theistic trollism, with all due respect, I'll
continue to be cautious as to your intent.
Gary
robert parker
<naked...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>"Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives" <cj...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in
>message news:3e5f1081$0$9533$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> As a memorial to the Australian victims of the Oct.12th bombing in Bali,
>the
>> Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I guess
>> only the Christians who died matter. All those people who aren't
>Christians
>> or don't believe in god apparently don't deserve any kind of
>> recognition...after all if you aren't a Christian then you aren't a human
>> being.... and they are all burning in hell anyway.
>>
>> And just like Sept.11, the fact that the attack was religious bases is
>> completely ignored so they can take advantage of the emotion around the
>> tragedy to force their own ancient fairy tales on the rest of society.
>>
>> It make me so mad I could scream.
>
>Just curious: What sort of a memorial would you erect? Ape;)
>
A memorial to the victims of religious hatred.
robert parker
<naked...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve Mading" <mad...@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote in message
>news:b3p10l$n6q$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...
>> In talk.atheism Lea Beater <le...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> : "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> : news:MPG.18c94abf3...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> :> BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
>> :> present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
>> :> they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
>>
>> : Quite possibly the most stupid, ignorant thing I've ever read on Usenet.
>>
>> : Congratulations, you've compelled me to forfeit my faith in atheism...
>>
>> If you call atheism a faith, you probably aren't an atheist, because you
>> show a complete lack of understanding what the term means.
>
>Wouldn't atheism be the faith (belief) that there isn't a theist >God, a supreme being separate from the creation it is supposedly >responsible for?
>Ape:)
>
Nope atheism is a rejection of faith in any god/s.
IOW a absence of faith in god/s.
robert parker
wrote:
Don`t respond to him so often, any response will of a necessity
imply to his lack of intelligence.
robert parker
wrote:
>
>
Suggestion, a slab of Ayers Rock with the names of the victims
inscribed. With the notation that they are the victims of
religious extremist.
Mark K. Bilbo
Yes. And who cares?
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
--H. L. Mencken
Mark K. Bilbo
It is a perfect example of a memorial that is a memorial to the *people,
not a distraction involving somebody's god concept...
Mark K. Bilbo
> On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:34:37 -0800, "naked_ape" <naked...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>> I was just fishing for an idea for a memorial that
>>wasn't religious.
>
> How about just put the buildings back up and call it the memorial WTC.
> With a plaque that say. They took our building so we took their country!
Or, more accurately...
They took our buildings so we attacked and conquered an unrelated country
and took someone else's oil which galvinized the entire Islamic world
against is which is why there's only a plaque standing in the rubble of
the rebuilt buildings that were blown up...
naked_ape
SNIP
> > I'm an Apeist, Gary, so if I were to have a shrine erected in my memory,
one
> > of a human simian would do. .. Ape;)
>
> This would still be a belief centric shrine. We would not, after all,
> erect a stick of celery for a vegetarian.
>
> If a memorial for the sake of a memorial is required, perhaps the the
> best example of a memorial that exists anywhere in the world is the
> Vietnam Memorial in DC. Speaking as an atheist with no belief in the
> afterlife, I could live with just a block of black granite with my
> name on it.
>
> Gary
I watched a lot of those guys die. Yes, the Vietnam memorial is a great
one. ..
Ape, happy to have survived that hell to live in this heaven.)
naked_ape
SNIP
If I were to characterize myself, I'd say that philosophically, I'm a
Taoist. Spiritually speaking, I lean toward Scientific Pantheism. I can't
help myself. I've never recovered from the Wow of existence. I was curious
about alt.agnosticism, so I decided to post. So far, though, I haven't seen
any agnostics. Just the religious.)) Ape;)
naked_ape
SNIP
> > I'm more interested in what you believe, Gary, and I'd like to also know
why
> > you are so passionate about your disbelief. .. Ape;)
>
> A nice piece of baiting that will get you nowhere. I provided you
> with a factual statement - by its nature it is devoid of passion.
> Factual statements have this quality because, unlike faith, they can
> not be disputed.
>
> That you realize this and seek to wander off on a theistic tangent
> aimed at soliciting a belief statement is questionable.
>
> Although you misunderstood what atheism is, you don't have to get all
> defensive. You could just as easily say that you misunderstood and
> leave it at that.
>
> Gary
So why are you so passionate about your misbelieve? Why is it so important
to you to do battle with the theists? Ape;)
naked_ape
"robert parker" <robpar...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:FC54B9A4BE09BFEC.9CC5681A...@lp.airnews.net...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what I just said? Ape;)
naked_ape
I care. Simple put, it's a belief that God is Everything. .. Ape;)
Christopher Morse
"Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives" wrote:
> "Christopher Morse" <matt...@northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:3E601FB6...@northwestern.edu...
>
> > I agree they are doing things for their own agenda, but I don't beleive
> that
> > agenda is "to Christianise society via the back door exploiting the
> emotions of
> > a terrible tragedry to do so." Their agenda is to keep the majority of the
> > public pleased with them so they can keep their jobs, and as you said only
> 15 to
> > 25 percent "are atheist, agnostic, free thinkers or just simply have no
> > religion". That leaves the vast majority of the people with a belief in
> god, and
> > I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those are Christian.
>
> So only the majority deserve to have their rights or feelings considered at
> the cost of the non-believers? Did you know that in the U.S. when slavery
> was abolished, that the majority of the population supported slavery? Does
> that mean that slavery is O.K. because that's what the majority wanted?
> Being secular means that everyone of every religion and of no religion is
> covered. A secular memorial represents 100% of the population...a Christian
> one covers far less. 100% is a lot more than 75%, give or take. That
> statistic only covers people who didn't classify themselves as
> non-religious...it doesn't cover lapsed, non-Christian religions or people
> who didn't answer the question. In reality less than 12% of the Australian
> population are church goers. It also makes it a bit shaky when you consider
> the only reason why so many people still say they believe in some kind of
> God is because of thousands of years of brainwashing and
> indoctrination...generation after generation of it until people are unable
> to take that final step away from theism, despite being fully, rationally
> aware of how absurd it is to take the very concept seriously.
I agree that the fact that the majority of the people agree with a policy
doesn't necessarily make that policy right. I was merely trying to argue against
your statement that the agenda of the Australian Consulate was "to Christianise
society via the back door exploiting the emotions of a terrible tragedy (one
caused by religion) to do so." I want to make it clear that I do not support
using a Christian symbol as a memorial here. I just feel that most Christians
deserve more credit than you are giving them.
- Chris
Christopher Morse
>
> These are thoughtful words, Chris, and I wouldn't criticize you on
> your intentions. However, it's unfortunate that those who evidence
> religion (mostly predicated on their god(s) being the only true
> god(s)) could not have exhibited the same degree of consideration and
> tolerance in this particular instance.
>
> As it applies to the pledge, the 'under god' aspect is completely lost
> on theists as a source of contention. A truly tolerant society would
> either remove it or replace it with "under god, gods, or no god or
> gods". It begs the question, could a citizen be considered less of a
> patriot and therefore be placed under suspicion for not saying 'under
> god'? This is certainly the stated opinion of G. Bush senior and V.P.
> candidate Liebermann.
>
> Although it may, in reality, have little practical ramification, one
> wonders how other such pledges affect real events. For example, if I
> as a witness at a trial declined to swear on the bible and say "so
> help me god", but instead requested to 'affirm', would my testimony
> be treated with less consideration by the jury?
>
> These are the reasons that separation of church and state are
> important. It also the reason that objecting to an implied state
> sanctioned religion is important.
>
Objecting is improtant, yes, but their is no reason, in my opinion, to feel insulted
and get upset, as our friend with free steak knives is. You don't have to be angry to
object.
- Chris
Christopher Morse
naked_ape wrote:
(1) An absence of faith in god
(2) Faith that there is no god
1 and 2 are not the same. The first position looks for evidence and then makes a
descision based on the evidence found, which, due to lack of evidence in favor
of a god fails to produce belief. The second position assumes a descision and
then searches for evidence to support that descision. While I would label both 1
and 2 as atheism, I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody that fits 2.
Christians, in general, fit the second pattern. They assume a god exists, and
then look for evidence to support that claim. And I think that again you would
be hard pressed to find a Christian that fit the first pattern, that looked
first at all the evidence and from that evidence decided that there must be a
god.
- Chris
Hugh Young
>On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:40:29 -0700, quibbler
><quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> without having blind faith.
>Blind faith is not faith, it's programming and
>indoctrination.
>
>
>> Science has no faith. Faith is acceptance without questioning
>>or proof.
>
> You have to have faith or you have no reason to look
>for proof and nothing to Question.
> Quarks can not be seen but some one has faith that
>they are there so devise tests and ask themselves
>Questions. Even build machines to look for them. All
>done on the faith that they are there.
No, they are only a hypothesis until there is evidence. You need no
faith in a hypothesis.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
Pick up a newspaper...watch the news. Count how many atrocities are done in
the name of faith and religion every day. See how many attempts are made by
believers every day to control everything from minds to nations. How many
violations of civil, human and constitutional rights are attempted or
achieved every day. Read what they believe and think about how they want
that taught to children instead of science and history. Look at the scams
committed every day by believers. The Roman Catholic Church is one of the
richest organizations on the face of the Earth and yet every day people who
can't afford to feed their families are giving their meagre earnings to
expand their coffers, so the Pope can get a new gold party hat... and in
return they are being told they are going to hell unless they have more
children which will drive them even further into poverty and starvation!
Look at the misery caused by the faithful everyday. This world is being
torn apart by belief in the absurd and impossible...and any one who isn't
doing something to fight against it isn't worth giving the time of day.
>
>
robert parker
You are wrong atheism is not a belief, religions are based on
faith. Atheist are not religious, and therefore faith is not part
of atheism. This is almost impossible for a theist like you to
comprehend, you can`t grasp the lack of faith in god/s.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
Now that's a good idea...although the aboriginal owners will never let that
happen. They recently revealed a painting that was a tribute to the 15
victims of the Backpacker Hostel fire a few years ago. It was a group
portrait of all of them smiling and having a good time (based on individual
photos)...a touching tribute without a hint of tragedy. Something of that
nature would be perfect...although obviously not a group portrait...it'd be
bloody huge.
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:s6u16v0d081sqe1nv...@4ax.com...
> >wasn't religious.
>
> the memorial WTC. With a plaque that say. They took
> our building so we took their country!
Actually this is about a memorial for the victims of the Bali bombings...in
particular one to the Australian victims in the Australian consulate.
>
> Michael
>
> A preacher is the blind
> leading the blind...
>
> The Last Church
> http://www.thelastchurch.org
> mic...@thelastchurch.org
Mark K. Bilbo
Which reduces "god" to pretty much nothing.
Mark Daly
I would never scoff at a persons belief, it is their right to believe
it and to build their life around it. If it brings them happiness, then
more power to them. It is not logical nor rational to believe in
something without proof, but humanity is not logical nor completely
rational in all things. Though I do warn you that accepting everything
on faith can be problematic, for instance centuries ago people had faith
that the world was flat, and it wasn't until it was challenged that it
was discovered to be a spheroid. All the centuries of faith that the
world was flat, didn't make the world flat, so faith can not change the
reality of a situation. So when faith is used to try to stop or change
the facts, or the reality of a situation, then faith can be equated to
ignorance. When I do scoff at belief is when people that hold a belief
based on faith, and use that belief as a reason to harass, and attempt
to convert people who do not share their faith or belief. Just as it is
your right to have your faith and your belief, it is another right to
reject that faith, and that belief. So let's leave it at if you want to
have faith and believe that is your business not mine, and if I choose
not to have any faith nor believe, that is my business not yours. In
other ways "To each his own."
I do want to make sure that do understand that your statement that
science has faith and accepts things without proof is wrong, see my
previous post for the reasons and support of this statement.
M. Daly
PSB wrote:
> "Mark E. Daly" <fri...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:3E5FD4D7...@mindspring.com:
>
>
>>Faith is acceptance without questioning or proof.
>
>
> Yep, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's nothing to scoff at,
or put
> down (not saying that you did, either).
naked_ape
I'm not a theist, and I'm not an atheist. I wandered into this forum looking
for agnostics and found myself cross-posted to atheism. Not to worry. I
won't be around long. Unlike you, I'm not into my disbelief and/or what I'm
against, just what I'm for. .. Ape;)
naked_ape
Are you nothing? Ape;)
Mark K. Bilbo
Reduces the WORD to uselessness.
naked_ape
Oh, I see. You're a crusader. Me, I'm just happy to be alive.)) Ape;)
naked_ape
Good idea. Yes, a memorial should celebrate life, not death. .. Ape;)
naked_ape
<mic...@thelastchurch.borg> wrote in message
news:i8136vk6jfin74qn0...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:47:21 +1000, "Clayton...Now With
> Free Steak Knives" <cj...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> >and any one who isn't
> >doing something to fight against it isn't worth giving the time of day.
>
> so busy destroying it's self.???
Excellent point. .. Ape;)
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
No...crusading is what the Christers do....I'm a defender and hopefully
occasionally a minor enlightener.
>
>
naked_ape
People scare me, not their religions. .. Ape;))
robert parker
<naked...@msn.com> wrote:
Sorry atheist means a lack of belief in god/s.
If you have any beliefs in the existence of god/s, you are
theist. Agnostic, means the lack of a position, your position is
that god/s may exist. Therefore you are theist. Your continuous
insults toward atheist, claiming atheism to be a religion, places
you firmly in the theist camp.
> I wandered into this forum looking
>for agnostics and found myself cross-posted to atheism. Not to worry. I
>won't be around long. Unlike you, I'm not into my disbelief and/or what I'm
>against, just what I'm for. .. Ape;)
>
And just what would that be, which god are you for?
prab...@shamrocksgf.com
> Mark Daly <fri...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:3E6170B2...@mindspring.com:
>> I would never scoff at a persons belief, it is their right to
>> believe it and to build their life around it.
> I'm not talking about faith in a religious context. Faith also exists
> when religion is not involved.
>> It is not logical nor rational to believe in something without proof
> Yes it is. NASA spends millions trying to find life on other planets,
> with no proof that such exists. They have faith that life on other
> planets exists, with no proof whatsoever behind that belief.
Is there life on this planet? Yes.
Is this sun like many other suns in the galaxy (in terms of temp, light,
etc.)? Yes.
Are there planets around other suns? Yes.
Those three questions indicate that it's possible that there's a planet
around another main-sequence star that has life on it, just like this one.
Thus no faith involved. Now if you wanted to claim that we are definitely
unique, THAT would take faith.
--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
prab...@shamrocksgf.com
> On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:40:29 -0700, quibbler
> <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> without having blind faith.
> Blind faith is not faith, it's programming and
> indoctrination.
>> Science has no faith. Faith is acceptance without questioning
>>or proof.
> You have to have faith or you have no reason to look
> for proof and nothing to Question.
> Quarks can not be seen but some one has faith that
> they are there so devise tests and ask themselves
> Questions.
Wrong. Someone went looking for them because there was unexplained phenomena
that couldn't be explained without them.
Even build machines to look for them. All
> done on the faith that they are there.
Nope, all done on the evidence that something was there. We just didn't know
for sure what it was initially.
> I have faith that there is more to life than what we
> know here so I question and look for proof. Having
> found proof I no longer fear death.
Oh, you found proof? Then how about sharing it with us. You'll be the first
to have ever found proof.
> Every new discovery comes from some one's faith that
> it could be done or found.
No, new discoveries come from looking at the current evidence, or else from
just stumbling across them by accident.
> Michael
> .
> A preacher is the blind
> leading the blind...
> The Last Church
> http://www.thelastchurch.org
> mic...@thelastchurch.org
--
Mark K. Bilbo
Religious concepts motivate people. Notice the WTC incident...
Mike M
>
> As a memorial to the Australian victims of the Oct.12th bombing in Bali,
the
> Australian Consulate will erect....guess what....a wooden cross. I guess
> only the Christians who died matter. All those people who aren't
Christians
> or don't believe in god apparently don't deserve any kind of
> recognition...after all if you aren't a Christian then you aren't a human
> being.... and they are all burning in hell anyway.
>
> And just like Sept.11, the fact that the attack was religious bases is
> completely ignored so they can take advantage of the emotion around the
> tragedy to force their own ancient fairy tales on the rest of society.
>
> It make me so mad I could scream.
>
>
>
its not the non-christians don't deserve anything... but the non-christians
chose not to erect a monument dummy!
Elroy Willis
> quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> BTW, I see that the irony of calling us infidels is lost on you in the
>> present situation. Muslims considered you all infidels, which is why
>> they blew your lily white asses into thousands of tiny jebus giblets.
> Quite possibly the most stupid, ignorant thing I've ever read on Usenet.
> Congratulations, you've compelled me to forfeit my faith in atheism...
Why? He speaks the truth.
I notice that Christians are big on calling other people "infidels" or
"pagans" or "heathens" or other such names, and don't think twice
about it.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newscrafter
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
naked_ape
SNIP
> >I'm not a theist, and I'm not an atheist.
>
> Sorry atheist means a lack of belief in god/s.
> If you have any beliefs in the existence of god/s, you are
> theist. Agnostic, means the lack of a position, your position is
> that god/s may exist. Therefore you are theist. Your continuous
> insults toward atheist, claiming atheism to be a religion, places
> you firmly in the theist camp.
Okay, I'll modify the term religous if it insults you, and just say you're
zealous about your disbelief. .. Ape:)
> > I wandered into this forum looking
> >for agnostics and found myself cross-posted to atheism. Not to worry. I
> >won't be around long. Unlike you, I'm not into my disbelief and/or what
I'm
> >against, just what I'm for. .. Ape;)
> >
> And just what would that be, which god are you for?
We're all gods, co-creators. ..
Ape, who'd tell you that you are God as you.))
naked_ape
Hatred, envy, fear motivated the WTC incident. Religion simply excused it.
..
Ape;)
prab...@shamrocksgf.com
> news:tlq8a.112025$4O5....@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com:
>>>> It is not logical nor rational to believe in something without proof
>>>
>>> Yes it is. NASA spends millions trying to find life on other
>>> planets, with no proof that such exists. They have faith that life
>>> on other planets exists, with no proof whatsoever behind that belief.
>>
>> Is there life on this planet? Yes.
>> Is this sun like many other suns in the galaxy (in terms of temp,
>> light, etc.)? Yes.
>> Are there planets around other suns? Yes.
> All three items above do not PROVE there is life on other planets.
> They simply IMPLY, at best, that life MAY exist there. That's all.
They are all evidence of the possibility of life elsewhere. You said "no
proof whatsoever behind that belief" but the above DO constitute evidence.
We don't ever "prove" things in real life like we do in math and logic. But
we do show evidence for things. There's evidence that life may exist on
other planets and thus it's not a "matter of faith."
Mark K. Bilbo
Funny thing how religion happens to be in the vicinity so often yet people
always blame the crime on someone else...
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
Amazing how you can type with your head in the sand like that.
Have you ever read the letter left behind by the Sept.11 terrorists? It's
the most God soaked religious document, outside of an actual religious text.
There are 86 references to God in a four page letter, including explicit
confirmation that they are doing it in the name of God and Islam, for the
glory of God, how God wants them to do it and how he will reward them when
they have done it. Do you really think that someone is going to commit
suicide by flying a plane full of innocent people into a building if they
didn't think they were doing it for their God?
> ..
> Ape;)
>
>
Clayton...Now With Free Steak Knives
"Mike M" <real...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MUr8a.56127$O41.2...@twister.austin.rr.com...
Are you thick or something? This is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY using TAX PAYERS
MONEY to erect a monument to ALL of the Bali victims on Government
property....but they are only recognizing the Christians by making the
monument a Christian one. Are you saying that only Christians should get
government recognition...that if you don't believe then you have to pay for
everything yourself? Maybe in a theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia would
something like that happen...but no way should it happen in a secular
democracy like Australia!! A monument to the dead is equally important to
all religions and the non-religious. Of course the Christian think that
their monument is the only one that matters, but despite their best efforts
the world does not rearrange itself to make their beliefs true.
>
>
Gary Rockley
naked_ape wrote:
> I'm not a theist, and I'm not an atheist. I wandered into this forum looking
> for agnostics and found myself cross-posted to atheism. Not to worry. I
> won't be around long. Unlike you, I'm not into my disbelief and/or what I'm
> against, just what I'm for. .. Ape;)
Ape, if your are not an theist, you are by definition an atheist.
Gary
Gary Rockley
>
> Okay, I'll modify the term religous if it insults you, and just say you're
> zealous about your disbelief. .. Ape:)
Ape, you are posting to atheist forum. This means that the persons
you will encounter are likely to be atheists. In the same way that if
you went to a Formula One race, you will mostly find people who are
talking about motor racing and not the tour de france or how to get a
greener lawn.
That you bowl in and immediately misrepresent atheism is a reason why
some of us post. If we are not here to clarify theistic
misconceptions, no-one will do it for us.
There is nothing 'zealous' about explaining to you why it is that your
misconceptions are wrong. Do we defend ourselves with a degree of
passion? Yes, when false notions are posited about atheism.
You will find that this forum (with only one or two exceptions) has no
atheists who are looking to 'prove' that god does not exist. The
majority of the dialogue here is mostly rebutting the unsubstantiated
claims of theists and asking them to justify or their claims.
You will also find, if you bother to look, that the dialogue here is
often a tad more advanced than dealing with simplistic theist
misunderstanding. If you would like to offer something a bit more
intellectual than personal misconception and erroneous conclusion, you
will find no shortage of of useful debate - whether the subject is
atheism or agnosticism.
For you to accuse those who point out your erroneous assumptions as
zealots, quite frankly, only serves to expose your limited
understanding of both the notion of debate and the definitions of the
words you choose.
Gary