So you think there is a God?
Barry OGrady
A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
do to deserve such a painful death?
So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
did they do to deserve such punishment?
So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
addicted tormentor?
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
alanm
"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire.
What did the little girl
> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet
meant for a teenage drug
> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.
Jerome
No it is not God's will that these things happen. Ultimately we are doing
these things to ourselves. Do not be deceived though, judgment day is
coming where all accounts are to be settled.
These events are consequences of living in a fallen world due to our sin
nature. If God stopped all these things from happening He would under our
control due to the fact that some where a line has be drawn as to where God
intervenes and where he lets us control our own destiny. If God dictated
everything that was to happen, then we would be robots. If we would have
Him do everything our way - where would it stop? "God, please let me win
the lottery." Ala Bruce Almighty. The line runs right though the middle of
all our hearts and we must choose which side we are to stand on. The fact
that all of mankind has chosen to do things his way - we have results as
above.
It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it into
his eye. Is it your fault? Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him to
do, where is the evidence that he loves you? Does he have a choice not to
love you? You want him to love you, so if you controlled all that he did
you would make him love you. Is he behaviorally indistinguishable from a
trained monkey at this point? Do you value a trained monkey or your own
child more?
The good news: God wants to make you His child. Are you ready? Jesus
stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks. Will you open it? He
died for you so that He might have the opportunity to know you and help you.
Check Him out at a church near you. Or play the home version of the game!
Know that you (as am I and everyone else) is a sinner, and that sin has
separated us from God. Jesus sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge
that gap between God and man. That bridge is called salvation and it is a
free gift - just ask Him for it sincerely and He will give you life
everlasting. He will show you want you should do next. Start with finding
a local church where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
Jerome
Codeb...@bigsecret.com
Barry OGrady wrote:
> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
It is painful to you, so it should be painful to GOD?
There is but one way to go to heaven, and that is through death
no matter the way you die.
VIVE BUSH, VIVE SANTORUM, VIVE BOLTON, AH, FRIST.
I don't believe in atheists
--
a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy
bringeth men's minds about to religion.
"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
Pastor Dave
>Barry OGrady wrote:
> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
> do to deserve such a painful death?
Typical. Man does bad things and then man blames God.
--
Pastor Dave
"If you believe what you like in the Gospel,
and reject what you like - it is not the Gospel
you believe, but yourselves." - St. Augustine
duke
>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
No doubt about it.
>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>do to deserve such a painful death?
She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless person.
>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
She didn't deserve it. She was the innocent victim of a godless shooter.
And so on.
>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
No. It's a result of the flaw of human nature.
>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>addicted tormentor?
Nope, same reason.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
James
>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>
> Typical. Man does bad things and then man blames God.
If you're a technician at a railroad company and you notice that a train
is heading towards a broken bridge, are you responsible if you choose to
do nothing?
--
James B
aa #944
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence."
-David Hume
Ben Goren
> Barry OGrady wrote:
>
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>
> No doubt about it.
>
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an
>> arson fire. What did the little girl do to deserve such a
>> painful death?
>
> She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless
> person.
So you're saying that the godless are more powerful than your
god. I see.
So, tell me, why do you worship such an impotent phantasm, instead
of the infinitely more powerful godless people on earth for whom
we've got direct proof of existence?
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
thomas p
>
>"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
snip
>
>
>It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it into
>his eye. Is it your fault?
Yes, especially if you knew he was going to do it.
>Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
>things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
>wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
>free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him to
>do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
to death etc.
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
thomas p
<news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>Typical. Man does bad things and then man blames God.
No, a child suffers; god does nothing. Your distortion of the point
was typical though.
I don't believe in atheists
--
a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy
bringeth men's minds about to religion.
"Ben Goren" <ben....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123874490.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> duke wrote:
>
>> Barry OGrady wrote:
>>
>>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>
>> No doubt about it.
>>
>>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an
>>> arson fire. What did the little girl do to deserve such a
>>> painful death?
>>
>> She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless
>> person.
>
> So you're saying that the godless are more powerful than your
> god. I see.
>
> So, tell me, why do you worship
Snip
<circular argument>
DanielSan
Agreed. What the religionists provide is circular arguments.
I don't believe in atheists
--
a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy
bringeth men's minds about to religion.
"DanielSan" <danie...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:Vo7Le.375$1b5.158@trnddc05...
<SMACK>
CASE CLOSED
ATHEISM IS DEAD
ALL THAT'S LEFT ARE THE GOD HATERS.
DanielSan
> <SMACK>
>
> CASE CLOSED
Why? Because you say so?
> ATHEISM IS DEAD
Then I'm dead?
> ALL THAT'S LEFT ARE THE GOD HATERS.
Sorry, but I cannot hate that which doesn't exist.
Jerome
"thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:kkupf190nl0qcem0m...@4ax.com...
My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of that
but never the less it is my choice. The original post asked why would a God
(who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this, but
allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
evidenced. True free will makes the love we have for God worth something
and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands. You would have
God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop you
in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own life.
Is God servant to you? Drop your own notion of self and pick up your cross
and follow Him. He will clear your path for you. Let Him direct your
steps.
Jerome
Uncle Vic
made the light shine upon us with this:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson
>> fire. What did the little girl do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a
>> bullet meant for a teenage drug dealer. What did this child do to
>> deserve a death such as this?
>
>
> It is painful to you, so it should be painful to GOD?
This is Barry's point. The bible states "God is Love". "God" is defined
as all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful. If he was all loving, he
would want to do something about these terrible things that happen to
people, believers and unbelievers alike. And since he is all-knowing, we
can't say he didn't know it was about to happen. And since he is all-
powerful, he could do something about it. Yet he does nothing. As if he
didn't exist at all.
> There is but one way to go to heaven, and that is through death
> no matter the way you die.
Cop out. Nobody knows what lies beyond death because nobody has ever come
back from death to tell us about it. By observation, when you die life
ends. There is no valid reason to believe otherwise, with the exception
of wishful thinking. Do you believe in Jiminy Cricket?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
Uncle Vic
made the light shine upon us with this:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:47:24 +1000, Barry OGrady
> <athei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>
> No doubt about it.
Speak for yourself, O brainwashed one.
>
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson
>>fire. What did the little girl do to deserve such a painful death?
>
> She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless
> person.
Where in the storyline does it say the arsonist was a godless person?
>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a
>>bullet meant for a teenage drug dealer. What did this child do to
>>deserve a death such as this?
>
> She didn't deserve it. She was the innocent victim of a godless
> shooter.
Where in the storyline does it say the gunman was a godless person? Most
gang-bangers are very religious, which explains their reckless abandon for
human life.
>
> And so on.
>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by
>>another child?
>
> No. It's a result of the flaw of human nature.
But gawd is omniscient, is he not? He has knowledge of all - past,
present and future. Therefore, it was his plan that the child would be
beaten to death. Otherwise, he would change the future, because he is
all-loving and would want to, and he is omnipotent and can do those
things.
>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then
>>beaten to death by her drug addicted tormentor?
>
> Nope, same reason.
There is no reason involved with religion.
za...@emphyrio.demon.co.uk
really hurts. Now imagine how it would be to be burned so badly that
you die from it, much of your body an open wound - an agonising,
revolting death. And you expect us to believe in a loving, all-seeing
god, who will stand by, wringing his ethereal hands, muttering "There's
nothing I can do, I gave them free will, I can't intervene" while this
unspeakable horror is visited on a child? If I may re-iterate the
obvious: it was not that four year old child's *choice* to be killed in
this manner. She did not exercise "free will". In fact, she had her
choices removed permanently by someone else. This, then, is clearly
your god's plan, is it not? That a child dies, hideously, because
*someone else* willed it, and he does nothing, even though he could?
The capability of people to engage in double-think in order to protect
their fantasy of eternal life bewilders me.
Steve
(Pentylzic)
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>
Then there are things that are beyond god's will? There are people who
are more powerful than god? I thought one deeded an iron chariot to
defeat god.
> Ultimately we are
> doing these things to ourselves. Do not be deceived though, judgment
> day is coming where all accounts are to be settled.
Mmm-hmmm. Any day now....
>
> These events are consequences of living in a fallen world due to our
> sin nature. If God stopped all these things from happening He would
> under our control due to the fact that some where a line has be drawn
> as to where God intervenes and where he lets us control our own
> destiny. If God dictated everything that was to happen, then we
> would be robots. If we would have Him do everything our way - where
> would it stop? "God, please let me win the lottery." Ala Bruce
> Almighty. The line runs right though the middle of all our hearts
> and we must choose which side we are to stand on. The fact that all
> of mankind has chosen to do things his way - we have results as
> above.
This statement makes no sense at all to someone who is not indoctrinated.
I saw the same kind of thing on Futurama, where Bender floats off into
space to create his own world and be god. He ends up talking to "god",
who tells him a god should only use his influence enough so that it
appears there is no god. What a copout.
>
> It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
> into his eye. Is it your fault? Did you do anything wrong?
Sure, if you didn't stop him, or realize that he didn't know what to do
with the fork. Is it your fault the child electrocutes himself by jamming
the fork into an unprotected electrical socket? Damn tootin' it is. This
is a point many religious people can't understand about the Adam & Eve
farce. How could original sin be anyone's fault but the god's, since the
god did not tell them eating of the tree of knowledge was a sin against
him - hell, even for making the fruit available to them like a temptation.
He only told them not to do it. They didn't even know if disobedience was
right or wrong.
> But God
> knows all things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what
> the child wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is
> evidence of the free will of the child. If you made your child do
> only what you want him to do, where is the evidence that he loves
> you? Does he have a choice not to love you? You want him to love
> you, so if you controlled all that he did you would make him love
> you. Is he behaviorally indistinguishable from a trained monkey at
> this point? Do you value a trained monkey or your own child more?
>
> The good news: God wants to make you His child. Are you ready?
Get real, there is no god.
> Jesus stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks.
No jesus either. The failed prophesies in the bible prove that.
> Will you
> open it? He died for you so that He might have the opportunity to
> know you and help you. Check Him out at a church near you. Or play
> the home version of the game! Know that you (as am I and everyone
> else) is a sinner, and that sin has separated us from God. Jesus
> sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge that gap between God and
> man. That bridge is called salvation and it is a free gift - just
> ask Him for it sincerely and He will give you life everlasting. He
> will show you want you should do next. Start with finding a local
> church where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
What a silly belief system. Salvation from what? The eternal punishment
by "god" for doing that which he created us to do? That doesn't even
begin to make sense.
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>
If the god is omniscient, there is no free will. If it knows everything -
past, present and future, it's as if life is a railroad track, and free
will is a train engineer who has the ability to turn in any direction
regardless of which way the tracks go.
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
> Jesus
> stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks.
This statement makes me laugh every time I look at it. What a pussy this
jesus is. Why doesn't he break down the door if it is so important?
Hell, it's a life or death situation, isn't it? If your neighbor's house
was on fire, would you stand at the door and knock?
What if nobody answers, does Jesus cry? :-)
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
> Start with finding
> a local church where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
In my neighborhood there are:
Mormon
Episcopal
Catholic
Baptist
Fundamental (ad-lib strip mall church)
Seventh Day Adventist
Which one is the right one?
Syd M.
>Snip
<circular argument>
Yes, that's all you theisist lot have, isn't it..
PDW
Syd M.
> <circular argument>
>
>Agreed. What the religionists provide is circular arguments.
>Danial-san
Have they anything else..?
PDW
DanielSan
Yes. They also have ad hominem, non-sequiturs, begging the question,
confusing cause and effect, and other logical fallacies.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
Enkidu the Atheist
news:jn4Le.4485$Wi6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> No it is not God's will that these things happen. Ultimately we are
> doing these things to ourselves. Do not be deceived though, judgment
> day is coming where all accounts are to be settled.
I thought Jesus would return during the lifetime of His first followers.
What happened? How will accounts be settled? What can God offer to
compensate for the torture and agony of the innocent dead? If I beat my
child mercilessly, then by him a new bicycle, that's not what we call
'good parenting'. Why does God get a pass?
> These events are consequences of living in a fallen world due to our
> sin nature. If God stopped all these things from happening He would
> under our control due to the fact that some where a line has be drawn
> as to where God intervenes and where he lets us control our own
> destiny.
Not if He created all, knowing in advance the outcome, the choices each
of us would make.
> If God dictated everything that was to happen, then we would
> be robots. If we would have Him do everything our way - where would
> it stop? "God, please let me win the lottery." Ala Bruce Almighty.
> The line runs right though the middle of all our hearts and we must
> choose which side we are to stand on. The fact that all of mankind
> has chosen to do things his way - we have results as above.
If the your view was correct (ignoring for a moment the logical
contradictions) then God *did* dictate everything that was to happen, by
creating the universe with full knowledge in advance of what was to
happen.
> It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
> into his eye. Is it your fault? Did you do anything wrong?
If you gave a six month old child a sharp fork, you bet! If a perent has
a resonable suspission that something bad may happen to a child, he has a
responsibility to prevent it.
> But God
> knows all things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what
> the child wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is
> evidence of the free will of the child. If you made your child do
> only what you want him to do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
My, you are a self centered bastard, aren't you. I don't raise my
children to love me, I rasie them to become happy, successful people.
Sometimes they are very angry with me.
My job as a parent is not to be loved, but to see my children safely to a
successful life.
> Does he have a choice not to love you? You want him to love you, so
> if you controlled all that he did you would make him love you. Is he
> behaviorally indistinguishable from a trained monkey at this point?
> Do you value a trained monkey or your own child more?
You do a pretty good 'trained monkey' yourself. Trained by your priests
and mumbo-jumbo men.
> The good news: God wants to make you His child. Are you ready?
I've read the Bible. If that's how God treats His children, I'll take a
permanet pass.
> Jesus stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks. Will you
> open it? He died for you so that He might have the opportunity to
> know you and help you. Check Him out at a church near you. Or play
> the home version of the game! Know that you (as am I and everyone
> else) is a sinner, and that sin has separated us from God. Jesus
> sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge that gap between God and
> man. That bridge is called salvation and it is a free gift - just ask
> Him for it sincerely and He will give you life everlasting. He will
> show you want you should do next. Start with finding a local church
> where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
Before God allowed Jesus to die in pain for my sins, He should have asked
if I wanted someone else to suffer in my place. He should have looked
into his own soul, and found the wisdom and compassion to simply forgive
unconditionally. But being neither wise or compassionate, He did not.
About the best you can say in God's defense is that He's fictional, and
the whole story is bull shit.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
The believer is happy; the doubter is wise.
-- Hungarian proverb
Feather Forestwalker
Barry OGrady wrote:
> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
> do to deserve such a painful death?
Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
>
> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
shooter.
>
> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault. Assigning
blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
>
> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
> did they do to deserve such punishment?
Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen. If the earthquake happened far
out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
>
> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
Who made the plane, God or man?
>
> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
No.
>
> Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
> addicted tormentor?
Again NO.
Barry, we live in a fallen world. All of the horrible things you have
outlined here are the result of that and nothing more. While God, in His
PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
to every single one of us.
A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but keeps
driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a heart attack
at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the pedestrian. Does
that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make him a victim of some
vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an imperfect (fallen) world? No
to the first two, yes to the third.
Hey, we have troubles in this life.
You have every right to ask God these questions.
My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
>
> Barry
> =====
> Home page
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
God bless you,
Feather
Feather Forestwalker
> on 12 Aug 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Jerome (sit...@work.org) made
> the light shine upon us with this:
>
>
>>Jesus
>>stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks.
>
>
> This statement makes me laugh every time I look at it. What a pussy this
> jesus is. Why doesn't he break down the door if it is so important?
> Hell, it's a life or death situation, isn't it? If your neighbor's house
> was on fire, would you stand at the door and knock?
>
> What if nobody answers, does Jesus cry? :-)
>
Naw, I was dragged, kicking and screaming, to the throne of grace.
And yes, Jesus weeps for the lost. . .often.
I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
news:k7mpf157d2l5ra7al...@4ax.com...
>
> >Barry OGrady wrote:
> > So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> > A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson
fire. What did the little girl
> > do to deserve such a painful death?
>
> Typical. Man does bad things and then man blames God.
>
asshole.
>
> Pastor dumbshit.
> --
DO UNTO OTHERS-THEN SPLIT....
AA #2241.
I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
news:7zaLe.5123$WD....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
remember this-your stupid buybull says that ALL things come from god.
you lose-end of story.
Katt
>
> What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
> to death etc.
I'm afraid you don't seem to have understood these people's world-view *at
all*, Thomas!
The truth is that *it's all perfectly simple*. And if it isn't, they change
it so it is.
So, for example:
(i) They hate Darwinism, because it paints a picture of a world ruled by
'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only way to survive;
naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so they
claim that Darwinism is impossible.
And, at the same time:
(ii) They hate Socialism. because it paints a picture of a world without
'competition', and in which being 'successful' is not the only way to
survive; naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so
they claim that Socialism is impossible.
Now, while all this is happening:
(iiii) They love American 'Neo-Liberalism', because it paints a picture of a
world ruled by 'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only
way to survive; naturally, they think that's *a really wonderful way to do
things*, so they claim that American 'Neo-Liberalism' is wonderful.
And, simultaneously:
(iv) They hate Darwinism, because it paints a picture of a world ruled by
'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only way to survive;
naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so they
claim that Darwinism is impossible.
So there you are. All clearly explained. Let me know if I haven't made that
*straightforward enough* for you...
Katt.
William T. Goat
And the kids you burn have a choice too: they choose *not* to burn. But
God ignores their free will choices. God lets them burn.
> The original post asked why would a God
> (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this, but
> allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> evidenced. True free will makes the love we have for God worth something
> and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands.
Nobody with a conscience and free will, loves the God of the Bible.
> You would have
> God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop you
> in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own life.
> Is God servant to you?
Yes. "I come not to be served, but to serve" Matthew 20:28.
Don't you read the Bible?
--Billy
William T. Goat
And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
> The original post asked why would a God
> (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this, but
> allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> evidenced.
Then God's will seems very easy to thwart.
> True free will makes the love we have for God worth something
> and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands. You would have
> God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop you
> in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own life.
> Is God servant to you?
Yes. "I come not to be served, but to serve." --Matthew 20:28
--Billy
Katt
news:1123897818.404858.
>
> And the kids you burn have a choice too: they choose *not* to burn. But
> God ignores their free will choices. God lets them burn.
Yes. Of course he does. A reading of the unbelievably graceless and
ploddingly incoherent tome that these idiots take as the foundation of their
witless 'faith' shows that the 'God of Abraham' is only really interested in
three things: (i) burnt offerings; (ii) blood; (iii) foreskins.
Believe me: the time will come when a person's showing anything beyond a
merely anthropological interest in this bag of Bronze-Age mythological shite
will be taken as *a symptom indicative of frank pathology*...
Katt.
Katt
>
> Cop out. Nobody knows what lies beyond death because nobody has ever come
> back from death to tell us about it.
Really...? If that's true, then *where was* John Travolta between 1983 and
1994...?!?
Katt.
Pastor Dave
<fea...@earthling.net> spake thusly:
>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
No you're not. :)
--
Pastor Dave
"If you believe what you like in the Gospel,
and reject what you like - it is not the Gospel
you believe, but yourselves." - St. Augustine
Jerome
Gan can know what you will do before you do it, but that doesn't interfere
with your choice in the matter. For example, if I hand my kid a candy bar,
I know he will eat it (at least half of it, the other half usually goes down
the heater vent or someplace), but that doesn't mean my kid doesn't have a
choice to eat it.
Jerome
Pastor Dave
<fea...@earthling.net> spake thusly:
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>shooter.
Man does evil. Man blames God. Then man claims
he is good and God is evil. <chuckle>
terry
Barry OGrady wrote in message ...
>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire.
What did the little girl
>do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet
meant for a teenage drug
>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
adults and three young
>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>
your GOD's name,
>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>
>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your
GOD's will that a seven
>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a
friend/teacher?
>
another child?
>
to death by her drug
>addicted tormentor?
>
Barry,
I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these crimes
and get away with it?
If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of justice
concerning the events you brought up. The absolute cruelty of the
situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical death
is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
life is lost and empty.
You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the ultimate
cruel existence. For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
then what does it matter who and how one dies. For without God, we cannot
even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is lost.
Terry Ivy
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Jerome wrote:
> >
> > Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten
> to death by her drug
> > addicted tormentor?
> >
>
> No it is not God's will that these things happen.
Quite obviously it is, even if it is in the context of the Great Dance
of Death that you idiot apologists prefer to call "free will".
> Ultimately we are doing
> these things to ourselves.
Then let's us humans get a little fucking credit for the good stuff.
You know, like the dramatic improvements in the human condition due to
the scientific and medical advancements that resulted from secular
naturalism. Or do you idiot apologists want the 3000 year old tribal
Deity with buttocks to get credit for that, too?
> Do not be deceived though, judgment day is
> coming where all accounts are to be settled.
>
Yeah, any minute now [rolling eyes].
(snip blather)
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Pastor Dave wrote:
> >Barry OGrady wrote:
> > So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
> > A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
> > do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>
Fuckin' man-caused tsunamis....
Jerome
> > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
> > people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of
that
> > but never the less it is my choice.
>
> And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
>
Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came from it.
Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after this happened.
Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too. We don't know all the details
to know what the Lord had in mind. God sees the end from the beginning,
unlike us. We see the act and are horrified, as we should be.- towards the
act, not that God did nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to ensure
we have an easy life, quite the contrary. Life subject to God is hard, but
He only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son, Jesus.
> > The original post asked why would a God
> > (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this,
but
> > allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> > evidenced.
>
> Then God's will seems very easy to thwart.
God is in control of things, all accounts will be settled in His time. His
ways are not our ways. We too easily place our own values on God and expect
God to act as we would. When He doesn't, we get mad and tend to reject God
forgetting that God respects no person in bring about His will.
>
> > True free will makes the love we have for God worth something
> > and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands. You would
have
> > God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop
you
> > in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own
life.
> > Is God servant to you?
>
> Yes. "I come not to be served, but to serve." --Matthew 20:28
>
> --Billy
>
Completing the idea from the out of context passage you quoted above:
"It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you
shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be
your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve,
and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:26-28. NASV
Jesus was speaking of His role and mission as a man sent to earth as a
sacrifice for mans sake. He was being an example to his disciples, and as
such was a servant so that we might understand what He wants of us.
He is not our genie we can summon and have Him do our bidding.
Jerome
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Jerome wrote:
> "thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
> news:kkupf190nl0qcem0m...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:46:07 GMT, "Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
> > snip
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
> into
> > >his eye. Is it your fault?
> >
> > Yes, especially if you knew he was going to do it.
> >
> > >Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
> > >things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
> > >wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
> > >free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him
> to
> > >do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
> >
> >
> > What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
> > to death etc.
> >
> > snip
> >
> > Thomas P.
> >
> > "Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
> >
> > (Kierkegaard)
> >
>
> people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of that
> but never the less it is my choice.
And those quarter million folks who chose to walk on the beach right
before a tsunami rolled in, fuck 'em.
> The original post asked why would a God
> (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this, but
> allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> evidenced.
And praise his Holy Name, I chose, God be praised, to be on the
opposite side of the earth on 12/26/04. Thank you, Blessed Lord, for
allowing me to testify in your Holy name.
(snip)
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Feather Forestwalker wrote:
> (SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>
(snip)
> >
> > Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
> > addicted tormentor?
>
> Again NO.
>
> Barry, we live in a fallen world.
Fuck your sadistic God.
> All of the horrible things you have
> outlined here are the result of that and nothing more.
The Whiny Little Cosmic Bitch who never takes responsibility.
> While God,
...though with the emotional maturity of Bart Simpson...
> in His
> PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
>
Then fuck 'im, have Child Protective Services take us all away before
He manages to do us all in.
> The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
> to every single one of us.
>
Fuck 'im for that, too. Wouldn't be so bad, except your Sadistic God
decided to make us all dread death.
(snip)
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Jerome wrote:
>
> Gan can know what you will do before you do it, but that doesn't interfere
> with your choice in the matter. For example, if I hand my kid a candy bar,
> I know he will eat it (at least half of it, the other half usually goes down
> the heater vent or someplace), but that doesn't mean my kid doesn't have a
> choice to eat it.
>
So true, and if I tell my kid to go walk on the beach right before the
tsunami, which I know will hit, hits, I'm just showing Junior how much
I fucking love him. Praise Jehovah for the opportunity to die horribly
in His Precious Name. Amen.
Santolina chamaecyparissus
Pastor Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker
> <fea...@earthling.net> spake thusly:
>
>
> >> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> >> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
> >> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
> >
> >Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
> >shooter.
>
> Man does evil. Man blames God. Then man claims
> he is good and God is evil. <chuckle>
>
Man does evil. God does evil. Nature does evil, killing millions
horribly, unrelated to man's actions. Idiot apologists claim it is all
part of a good plan. <grimace, since horrific suffering is only a
chuckle to nauseating apologists>
Ike
"Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote in message
news:jn4Le.4485$Wi6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire.
> What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet
> meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>
> your GOD's name,
>> did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your
> GOD's will that a seven
>> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a
> friend/teacher?
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by
> another child?
>>
> to death by her drug
>> addicted tormentor?
>>
> these things to ourselves. Do not be deceived though, judgment day is
> coming where all accounts are to be settled.
>
> nature. If God stopped all these things from happening He would under our
> control due to the fact that some where a line has be drawn as to where
> God
> everything that was to happen, then we would be robots. If we would have
> Him do everything our way - where would it stop? "God, please let me win
> the lottery." Ala Bruce Almighty. The line runs right though the middle
> of
> all our hearts and we must choose which side we are to stand on. The fact
> that all of mankind has chosen to do things his way - we have results as
> above.
>
> things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
> wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
> free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him
> to
> love you? You want him to love you, so if you controlled all that he did
> you would make him love you. Is he behaviorally indistinguishable from a
> trained monkey at this point? Do you value a trained monkey or your own
> child more?
>
> stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks. Will you open it?
> He
> died for you so that He might have the opportunity to know you and help
> you.
> Check Him out at a church near you. Or play the home version of the game!
> Know that you (as am I and everyone else) is a sinner, and that sin has
> separated us from God. Jesus sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge
> that gap between God and man. That bridge is called salvation and it is a
> free gift - just ask Him for it sincerely and He will give you life
> everlasting. He will show you want you should do next. Start with
> finding
> a local church where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
>
>
I understand where you are coming from. You believe in life after death for
eternity, and this life is totally insignificant compared with eternity. All
the ironic events described in the post could be justified on the basis that
this life is insignificant, and afterwards all souls go to meet their Maker.
An atheist does not believe in a soul or an afterlife, (of course there are
exceptions to every rule). So I would think in light of these tragedies, it
would be even more difficult to deny a soul or an afterlife. In the Middle
Ages, when everyone was much closer to death than most of the people reading
this post, atheism was much rarer. There is some truth to the saying that
there are no atheists in foxholes. I imagine there could still have been
some atheists in foxholes, just as there were a few atheists in the Middle
Ages who kept a low profile, just as many atheists do today. So the original
post was more an argument against atheism than for atheism.
Santolina chamaecyparissus
terry wrote:
>
> Barry,
> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
> you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
> or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these crimes
> and get away with it?
>
Just a wild guess on my part, but that would be........er........death.
> If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
> not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of justice
> concerning the events you brought up. The absolute cruelty of the
> situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical death
> is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
> life is lost and empty.
>
Correct, at least to your limited understanding.
> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the ultimate
> cruel existence.
Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
The universe just IS, it has no capability of being cruel, it takes
faux personal beings like God to manifest true cruelty.
> For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
> then what does it matter who and how one dies.
How small-minded you are. Nothing we humans do makes a fucking bit of
difference, by your logic.
> For without God, we cannot
> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is lost.
>
And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these concepts
without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks overseeing the
whole farce. Pathetic.
Olrik
> Barry OGrady wrote:
>
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>
>
> It is painful to you, so it should be painful to GOD?
> There is but one way to go to heaven, and that is through death
> no matter the way you die.
>
> VIVE BUSH, VIVE SANTORUM, VIVE BOLTON, AH, FRIST.
T'as vraiment rien à dire, p'tite merde. Pourquoi t'insistes?
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
>>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>>So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
>>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
>>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>>addicted tormentor?
>>
>>Barry
>>=====
>>Home page
>>http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
>
>
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
Olrik
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:47:24 +1000, Barry OGrady <athei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>
>
> No doubt about it.
>
>
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>
> She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless person.
>
>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>
> She didn't deserve it. She was the innocent victim of a godless shooter.
>
> And so on.
>
>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>
>
> No. It's a result of the flaw of human nature.
>
>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>>addicted tormentor?
>
>
> Nope, same reason.
Your whole post is proof positive that you're a troll.
Not a *single* xian I know would answer what you wrote.
>
> duke
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
DanielSan
> (SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>
> Barry OGrady wrote:
>
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson
>> fire. What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>
> Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
So, it's not the arsonist's fault? How is arson an accident?
>
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a
>> bullet meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>
> Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
> shooter.
Again, how is the shooting an accident? Didn't God know it was going to
happen?
>
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home.
>> Two adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>
>
> Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault.
Why not? Didn't God know that it was going to happen? If he didn't,
he's not omniscient. If he did and did nothing to stop it (even so much
as causing someone else to show up and deter the intruder), then this
God is not deserving of worship.
> Assigning
> blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
> of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
And we can't save ourselves?
>
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What,
>> in your GOD's name,
>> did they do to deserve such punishment?
>
>
> Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen.
Natural disasters? Like the Flood?
> If the earthquake happened far
> out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
Yes.
>
>>
>> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it
>> your GOD's will that a seven
>
>
>> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a
>> friend/teacher?
>
>
> Who made the plane, God or man?
Man, apparently using God-given intelligence.
>
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by
>> another child?
>
>
> No.
Then God is not omniscient, nor did he create the circumstances in which
a four-year-old could do something like that.
>
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then
>> beaten to death by her drug
>> addicted tormentor?
>
>
> Again NO.
Then this God did not create anything.
>
> Barry, we live in a fallen world.
Hey, bubby, don't blame things on our ancestors. Blame it on the
tormentors, rapists, arsonists, and so forth.
> All of the horrible things you have
> outlined here are the result of that and nothing more.
No, it's the result of bad upbringing, indignance at society, illegality
of certain things, and a host of other things brought about by those
wanting to control to keep the peace.
> While God, in His
> PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
He created the situation when he created existence. And if he allowed
these things to happen, then he is not a god that I'd want to worship.
>
> The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
> to every single one of us.
"Physical death?" Is there any other kind?
>
> A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but keeps
> driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a heart attack
> at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the pedestrian. Does
> that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make him a victim of some
> vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an imperfect (fallen) world? No
> to the first two, yes to the third.
So, you're blaming everything on our ancestors and not the culprits?
Why are you apologizing for rapists?
>
> Hey, we have troubles in this life.
Caused by the folks who want to take the law into their own hands and
feel they are above the law. Child-molesting priests do it all the time.
>
> You have every right to ask God these questions.
God? How can I ask a nonexistant entity anything?
>
> My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
Yep, because you're not doing a very good job.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
DanielSan
In 1985, he starred in "Perfect" as Adam, in the television show
"Basements" as Ben in 1987, in "The Experts" (1989) as Travis, in "Look
Who's Talking" (1989) as James, in "Look Who's Talking Too" (1990) also
as James, in "Chains of Gold" (1991) as Scott, in "Shout" (1991) as
Jack, "Eyes of an Angel" (1991) as Bobby, and in "Look Who's Talking
Now" (1993) reprising his role of James.
I do not know if you're being facetious or not. If you were, then
ignore this post. :-)
DanielSan
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker
> <fea...@earthling.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>
>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>>shooter.
>
>
> Man does evil. Man blames God. Then man claims
> he is good and God is evil. <chuckle>
And where is man claiming he is good? And how can someone like me claim
God is evil if I do not believe this thing exists?
za...@emphyrio.demon.co.uk
Jerome wrote:
> > > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
> > > people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of
> that
> > > but never the less it is my choice.
> >
> > And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
> >
>
> Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came from it.
> Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after this happened.
> Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too. We don't know all the details
> to know what the Lord had in mind. God sees the end from the beginning,
> unlike us. We see the act and are horrified, as we should be.- towards the
> act, not that God did nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to ensure
> we have an easy life, quite the contrary. Life subject to God is hard, but
> He only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son, Jesus.
>
Dying in a horrible, painful way when you've barely had a chance to
live is nothing to do with not having "..an easy life". And your
implication is that "God's mission" is for us to have a hard life. Why
is that? Does he enjoy torturing humans? Can you explain to me what
sort of entity would *like* to do this sort of thing? After all, it
seems that no-one compels your god to do anything he doesn't want to
do, so he must enjoy it.
And I don't need to know "...all the details...", because only one
detail matters: that a child of four died horribly through no possible
fault of her own. The only possible explanation, if we follow your
line of reasoning, is that your god caused for the child to be brought
into the world (after all, he started the chain of events that meant
she *could* be brought into the world, if nothing else), and then,
knowing exactly what would happen (since he knows all), this
omni-present, all-powerful, entity sat back and watched it happen.
We are supposedly made in his image, so what would you think of a human
being who stood and watched the awful pain they caused as it was
happening? What would you think of them as they watched the suffering
of the relatives left behind? Would you even *like* that person?
<snip>
Steve
(Pentylzic)
Katt
news:mPhLe.2131$Xw5.627@trnddc02...
>>
>>>Cop out. Nobody knows what lies beyond death because nobody has ever
>>>come
>>>back from death to tell us about it.
>>
>>
>> Really...? If that's true, then *where was* John Travolta between 1983
>> and 1994...?!?
>
> In 1985, he starred in "Perfect" as Adam, in the television show
> "Basements" as Ben in 1987, in "The Experts" (1989) as Travis, in "Look
> Who's Talking" (1989) as James, in "Look Who's Talking Too" (1990) also as
> James, in "Chains of Gold" (1991) as Scott, in "Shout" (1991) as Jack,
> "Eyes of an Angel" (1991) as Bobby,
Well, maybe this is just me, but the above certainly *looks* like death...!
> and in "Look Who's Talking Now" (1993) reprising his role of James.
I hear he's currently about to provide the voice of L. Ron Hubbard in a
scientology-based follow-up to the above, called "Look Who's Talking
Bollocks"...
>
> I do not know if you're being facetious or not. If you were, then ignore
> this post. :-)
<wide eyes>
Me? Facetious?
<blink>
Katt.
Barry OGrady
>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>
>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
Could God have prevented it?
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>shooter.
Could God have prevented it?
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>
>Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault.
Is God powerless?
>Assigning
>blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
>of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
If only God can save us then God is responsible for everything.
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
>> did they do to deserve such punishment?
>
>Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen. If the earthquake happened far
>out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
God is showing off at our expense?
>> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
>
>> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
>
>Who made the plane, God or man?
Who made the man?
>> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>
>No.
Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
>> Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>> addicted tormentor?
>
>Again NO.
Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
>Barry, we live in a fallen world.
Is it your GOD's will that we live in a fallen world? Was it God's will to trick Adam and
Eve to give him an excuse to downgrade us?
>All of the horrible things you have
>outlined here are the result of that and nothing more.
How is the fallen world not God's responsibility?
How does the fallen world prevent God from making things better by preventing bad
things?
>While God, in His
>PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
So it is God's will that bad things happen.
God did cause the things that cause bad things, right?
>The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
>to every single one of us.
And has happened for millions of years before man came on the scene.
>A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but keeps
>driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a heart attack
>at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the pedestrian. Does
>that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make him a victim of some
>vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an imperfect (fallen) world? No
>to the first two, yes to the third.
Could God have prevented it?
>Hey, we have troubles in this life.
>
>You have every right to ask God these questions.
I'll leave that to you.
>My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
Is it your GOD's will that his creations are unable to answer satisfactorily?
>> Barry
>> =====
>> Home page
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
>
>God bless you,
>
>Feather
Barry OGrady
>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>Typical. Man does bad things and then man blames God.
Is God incapable of fixing his mess or just unwilling?
>--
>
>Pastor Dave
Barry OGrady
>Interesting. Tell me, have you ever burned yourself? It really,
>really hurts. Now imagine how it would be to be burned so badly that
>you die from it, much of your body an open wound - an agonising,
>revolting death. And you expect us to believe in a loving, all-seeing
>god, who will stand by, wringing his ethereal hands, muttering "There's
>nothing I can do, I gave them free will, I can't intervene" while this
>unspeakable horror is visited on a child? If I may re-iterate the
>obvious: it was not that four year old child's *choice* to be killed in
>this manner. She did not exercise "free will". In fact, she had her
>choices removed permanently by someone else. This, then, is clearly
>your god's plan, is it not? That a child dies, hideously, because
>*someone else* willed it, and he does nothing, even though he could?
Its a learning process. The dead child won't do it again.
>The capability of people to engage in double-think in order to protect
>their fantasy of eternal life bewilders me.
You sound like a normal person.
>Steve
>(Pentylzic)
Barry OGrady
>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:47:24 +1000, Barry OGrady <athei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>
>No doubt about it.
>
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>She didn't deserve it. She was an innocent victim of a godless person.
God must have been on holiday.
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>She didn't deserve it. She was the innocent victim of a godless shooter.
God must have been on holiday.
>And so on.
No point repeating your nonsense.
>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>
>No. It's a result of the flaw of human nature.
Is it your GOD's will that human nature be flawed?
>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>>addicted tormentor?
>
>Nope, same reason.
Is it your GOD's will that human nature be flawed?
>duke
>*****
Barry OGrady
>"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire.
>What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet
>meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two
>adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in
>your GOD's name,
>> did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your
>GOD's will that a seven
>> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a
>friend/teacher?
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by
>another child?
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten
>to death by her drug
>> addicted tormentor?
>>
>> Barry
>> =====
>> Home page
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
>
>No it is not God's will that these things happen.
All things are possible for God, which means that God always has what he
wants.
>Ultimately we are doing these things to ourselves.
We can only do what God allows, and we can only be the way God made us.
>Do not be deceived though, judgment day is
>coming where all accounts are to be settled.
That's a nice thought, but who can punish God?
>These events are consequences of living in a fallen world due to our sin
>nature.
The nature that God forced on us after tricking Adam and Eve.
>If God stopped all these things from happening He would under our
>control due to the fact that some where a line has be drawn as to where God
>intervenes and where he lets us control our own destiny. If God dictated
>everything that was to happen, then we would be robots. If we would have
>Him do everything our way - where would it stop? "God, please let me win
>the lottery." Ala Bruce Almighty. The line runs right though the middle of
>all our hearts and we must choose which side we are to stand on. The fact
>that all of mankind has chosen to do things his way - we have results as
>above.
You are bringing God down to your level by assuming that God is as limited
as you.
>It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it into
>his eye. Is it your fault?
Yes.
>Did you do anything wrong?
Yes.
>But God knows all
>things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
>wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
>free will of the child.
Its evidence of God's failure.
>If you made your child do only what you want him to
>do, where is the evidence that he loves you? Does he have a choice not to
>love you? You want him to love you, so if you controlled all that he did
>you would make him love you. Is he behaviorally indistinguishable from a
>trained monkey at this point? Do you value a trained monkey or your own
>child more?
So we should allow young children to wander onto a busy road? We should
refuse to have a fence around our swimming pool? We should do nothing
to protect our children?
>The good news: God wants to make you His child.
That's bad news.
>Are you ready? Jesus
>stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks. Will you open it?
As someone else said, if its so important Jesus should break down the door.
>He
>died for you so that He might have the opportunity to know you and help you.
>Check Him out at a church near you.
Just don't leave your children with his keepers.
>Or play the home version of the game!
>Know that you (as am I and everyone else) is a sinner, and that sin has
>separated us from God.
I am not a sinner but I am separated from God because I exist.
>Jesus sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge that gap between
> God and man.
Its a shame that God let things slip so.
>That bridge is called salvation and it is a
>free gift - just ask Him for it sincerely and He will give you life
>everlasting.
If its a free gift then there is nothing for us to do.
>He will show you want you should do next. Start with finding
>a local church where the word of God is taught and getting baptized.
Why do we need saving from God and can we trust God to save us from himself?
>Jerome
Barry OGrady
>"thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
>news:kkupf190nl0qcem0m...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:46:07 GMT, "Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
>> snip
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
>into
>> >his eye. Is it your fault?
>>
>> Yes, especially if you knew he was going to do it.
>>
>> >Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
>> >things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
>> >wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
>> >free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him
>to
>> >do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
>>
>>
>> What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
>> to death etc.
>>
>> snip
>>
>> Thomas P.
>>
>> "Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
>>
>> (Kierkegaard)
>>
>
>My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
>people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of that
>but never the less it is my choice.
And of course your victims chose to be victims.
>The original post asked why would a God
>(who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this,
All things are possible for God, which means that God always has what he wants.
>but allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
>evidenced. True free will makes the love we have for God worth something
>and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands.
We don't have true free will.
>You would have
>God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop you
>in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own life.
>Is God servant to you? Drop your own notion of self and pick up your cross
>and follow Him. He will clear your path for you. Let Him direct your
>steps.
If we did that we would be robots. Do you want to be a robot?
Barry OGrady
>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker
><fea...@earthling.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>>shooter.
>
>Man does evil. Man blames God. Then man claims
>he is good and God is evil. <chuckle>
Do you have a problem with that?
God creates man. Men resist the evil that God puts in them.
That makes God evil and man good.
>--
>
>Pastor Dave
thomas p
wrote:
>
>"Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote in message
>news:jn4Le.4485$Wi6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
snip
>I understand where you are coming from. You believe in life after death for
>eternity, and this life is totally insignificant compared with eternity. All
>the ironic events described in the post could be justified on the basis that
>this life is insignificant, and afterwards all souls go to meet their Maker.
There would still be no need or reason for the suffering. An
all-powerful god would still be a monster for allowing it to happen.
>An atheist does not believe in a soul or an afterlife, (of course there are
>exceptions to every rule). So I would think in light of these tragedies, it
>would be even more difficult to deny a soul or an afterlife.
Non sequitur.
In the Middle
>Ages, when everyone was much closer to death than most of the people reading
>this post, atheism was much rarer. There is some truth to the saying that
>there are no atheists in foxholes.
There is no truth to it.
I imagine there could still have been
>some atheists in foxholes, just as there were a few atheists in the Middle
>Ages who kept a low profile, just as many atheists do today. So the original
>post was more an argument against atheism than for atheism.
thomas p
>
>"thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
>news:kkupf190nl0qcem0m...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:46:07 GMT, "Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
>> snip
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
>into
>> >his eye. Is it your fault?
>>
>> Yes, especially if you knew he was going to do it.
>>
>> >Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
>> >things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
>> >wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of the
>> >free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want him
>to
>> >do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
>>
>>
>> What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
>> to death etc.
>>
>> snip
>>
>> Thomas P.
>>
>> "Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
>>
>> (Kierkegaard)
>>
>
>My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
>people up, that is my choice.
What does that have to with god allowing the children to burn to
death? It was not their choice. Damn it takes a long time to get you
to see the point.
snip
thomas p
>
>> > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
>> > people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of
>that
>> > but never the less it is my choice.
>>
>> And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
>>
>
>Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came from it.
>Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after this happened.
>Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too. We don't know all the details
>to know what the Lord had in mind. God sees the end from the beginning,
>unlike us. We see the act and are horrified, as we should be.- towards the
>act, not that God did nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to ensure
>we have an easy life, quite the contrary. Life subject to God is hard, but
>He only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son, Jesus.
The above is disgusting to the greatest degree. Your god is a
monster, and you should be ashamed of defending him.
thomas p
>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>
>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>
>Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
If, for example, the father could have stopped it but did nothing, he
would be at fault. Could god have stopped it?
>
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>
>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>shooter.
See above.
>
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>
>Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault. Assigning
>blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
>of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
No, it assumes that god could have done something but didn't.
snip of more of the same
God didn't stop it. He could have. He is responsible. Of course
that all assumes that he exists.
thomas p
>
>Barry OGrady wrote in message ...
snip
>Barry,
>I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
>you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
>or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these crimes
>and get away with it?
We would have to grow up and do our own thinking about such problems.
>
>If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
>not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of justice
>concerning the events you brought up. The absolute cruelty of the
>situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical death
>is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
>life is lost and empty.
That is not true. It means that we do not have to look to a monster
of a god for our values. It means that we face our responsibility for
our lives.
>
>You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the ultimate
>cruel existence.
A life without fear of eternal punishment for being human is hardly
the ultimate cruel existence.
>For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>then what does it matter who and how one dies.
Perhaps it means nothing to you. It means a great deal to me.
>For without God, we cannot
>even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is lost.
Nonsense. They are crimes and they are tragic. However, even if you
were right, that says nothing about the existence of god.
thomas p
>"thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
>news:kkupf190nl0qcem0mmbr5i3f155bepjrbq@
>>
>> What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
>> to death etc.
>
>I'm afraid you don't seem to have understood these people's world-view *at
>all*, Thomas!
>The truth is that *it's all perfectly simple*. And if it isn't, they change
>it so it is.
>
>So, for example:
>(i) They hate Darwinism, because it paints a picture of a world ruled by
>'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only way to survive;
>naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so they
>claim that Darwinism is impossible.
>
>And, at the same time:
>(ii) They hate Socialism. because it paints a picture of a world without
>'competition', and in which being 'successful' is not the only way to
>survive; naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so
>they claim that Socialism is impossible.
>
>Now, while all this is happening:
>(iiii) They love American 'Neo-Liberalism', because it paints a picture of a
>world ruled by 'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only
>way to survive; naturally, they think that's *a really wonderful way to do
>things*, so they claim that American 'Neo-Liberalism' is wonderful.
>
>And, simultaneously:
>(iv) They hate Darwinism, because it paints a picture of a world ruled by
>'competition', and in which being 'successful' is the only way to survive;
>naturally, they think that's *a really nasty way to do things*, so they
>claim that Darwinism is impossible.
>
>So there you are. All clearly explained. Let me know if I haven't made that
>*straightforward enough* for you...
>
>Katt.
>
It all makes sense to me now - except for Bingo of course.
thomas p
<fea...@DONTWANTNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>Uncle Vic wrote:
>
>> on 12 Aug 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Jerome (sit...@work.org) made
>> the light shine upon us with this:
>>
>>
>>>Jesus
>>>stands at the door of your heart and life and knocks.
>>
>>
>> This statement makes me laugh every time I look at it. What a pussy this
>> jesus is. Why doesn't he break down the door if it is so important?
>> Hell, it's a life or death situation, isn't it? If your neighbor's house
>> was on fire, would you stand at the door and knock?
>>
>> What if nobody answers, does Jesus cry? :-)
>>
>
>Naw, I was dragged, kicking and screaming, to the throne of grace.
What does it look like?
>
>And yes, Jesus weeps for the lost. . .often.
Ever take a photograph?
I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
news:8voqf1dcrmvp1rc2j...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker
>
>
> >> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
> >> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a
bullet meant for a teenage drug
> >> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
> >
> >Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
> >shooter.
>
> he is good and God is evil. <chuckle>
>
>
> Pastor dipshit
>
all things come from god-says your stupid buybull.
--
DO UNTO OTHERS-THEN SPLIT....
AA #2241.
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>
> Gan can know what you will do before you do it, but that doesn't
> interfere with your choice in the matter. For example, if I hand my
> kid a candy bar, I know he will eat it (at least half of it, the
> other half usually goes down the heater vent or someplace), but that
> doesn't mean my kid doesn't have a choice to eat it.
>
> Jerome
>
>
>
Sure, your kid has a choice. But you are not claiming to be omniscient,
knowing the outcome of all events. You see, if this god thingy knows the
outcome of every event ever, past, present and future, life's events are
therefore etched in stone, and there can be no randomness, no choices.
Of course the whole god concept / free will thing is a copout. If I
decide half an hour before lunch to go get a cheeseburger, then while I'm
standing in line at the commissary I change my mind and order a burrito,
you could say the god knew I was going to change my mind. It reminds me
of Pee Wee's Big Adventure, where Reubens falls off his bike, dusts
himself off and remarks, "I meant to do that".
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
Jez
$Wi6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
> "Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in
message
> news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to
death in an arson fire.
> What did the little girl
>> do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Another young child dies on the way to the hospital
after taking a bullet
> meant for a teenage drug
>> dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death
such as this?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> A family of five is bludgeoned to death by
intruders in their home. Two
> adults and three young
>> children. What did they do to deserve this
treatment?
>>
>> So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>> Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an
earthquake. What, in
> your GOD's name,
>> did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>> So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>> All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All
loving,.............. Is it your
> GOD's will that a seven
>> year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her
father and a
> friend/teacher?
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is
beaten to death by
> another child?
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is
raped and then beaten
> to death by her drug
>> addicted tormentor?
>>
>> Barry
>> =====
>> Home page
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
>
> No it is not God's will that these things happen.
True enough.
>Ultimately we are doing
> these things to ourselves. Do not be deceived
though, judgment day is
> coming where all accounts are to be settled.
Bullshit.
>
> These events are consequences of living in a fallen
world due to our sin
> nature.
Bullshit.
>If God stopped all these things from happening He
would under our
> control due to the fact that some where a line has
be drawn as to where God
> intervenes and where he lets us control our own
destiny. If God dictated
> everything that was to happen, then we would be
robots. If we would have
> Him do everything our way - where would it stop?
"God, please let me win
> the lottery." Ala Bruce Almighty.
Bullshit.
The line runs right though the middle of
> all our hearts and we must choose which side we are
to stand on. The fact
> that all of mankind has chosen to do things his way
- we have results as
> above.
>
> It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat
with and he jabs it into
> his eye. Is it your fault? Did you do anything
wrong? But God knows all
> things.
An non-existant entity knows nothing.
Well, it can't even know.
>Why would He let him do that? The child did what the
child
> wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The
injury is evidence of the
> free will of the child. If you made your child do
only what you want him to
> do, where is the evidence that he loves you? Does
he have a choice not to
> love you? You want him to love you, so if you
controlled all that he did
> you would make him love you. Is he behaviorally
indistinguishable from a
> trained monkey at this point? Do you value a
trained monkey or your own
> child more?
>
> The good news: God wants to make you His child.
Bullshit.
> Are you ready? Jesus
> stands at the door of your heart and life and
knocks.
Bullshit.
>Will you open it? He
> died for you so that He might have the opportunity
to know you and help you.
How the fuck can a dead man help anyone, asshole ?
> Check Him out at a church near you.
Wouldn't he be a bit smelly after all these years ?
> Or play the home version of the game!
> Know that you (as am I and everyone else) is a
sinner, and that sin has
> separated us from God.
Bullshit.
> Jesus sacrificed Himself so that He could bridge
> that gap between God and man.
Bullshit.
> That bridge is called salvation and it is a
> free gift - just ask Him for it sincerely and He
will give you life
> everlasting.
Bullshit.
> He will show you want you should do next.
Bullshit.
>Start with finding
> a local church where the word of God is taught and
getting baptized.
No thanks, I try to avoid lunatics and the mentally
deranged.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted
the reasonable notion that you should base your
actions on reality, you are too often led to accept,
without much questioning, someone else's version of
what that reality is. It is a crucial act of
independent thinking to be skeptical of someone else's
description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Jez
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
> "thomas p" <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
> news:kkupf190nl0qcem0m...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:46:07 GMT, "Jerome" <sit...@work.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Barry OGrady" <athei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:aq9pf15afvq9iaavf...@4ax.com...
>> snip
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >It's kind of like giving your child a fork to eat with and he jabs it
> into
>> >his eye. Is it your fault?
>>
>> Yes, especially if you knew he was going to do it.
>>
>> >Did you do anything wrong? But God knows all
>> >things. Why would He let him do that? The child did what the child
>> >wanted - irrespective of what you wanted. The injury is evidence of
the
>> >free will of the child. If you made your child do only what you want
him
> to
>> >do, where is the evidence that he loves you?
>>
>>
>> What does that have to do with a child being burned to death or beaten
>> to death etc.
>
> My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
> people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of
that
> but never the less it is my choice. The original post asked why would
a God
> (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want
this, but
> allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> evidenced. True free will makes the love we have for God worth
something
> and places the responsibility of our lives in our own hands. You would
have
> God stop people from doing these things. Where do you want God to stop
you
> in your own actions? What would you allow Him to control in your own
life.
> Is God servant to you? Drop your own notion of self and pick up your
cross
> and follow Him. He will clear your path for you. Let Him direct your
> steps.
He can't direct anything, as he doesn't exist.
Now take your pathetic tartuffery, and shove it up your arse.
Jez
>
>> > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and
beat
>> > people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences
of
> that
>> > but never the less it is my choice.
>>
>> And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
>>
>
> Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came from
it.
> Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after this
happened.
LOL ! She might have gone insane you mean.
> Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too.
So it's a good thing to cause others to go insane too, is it ?
>We don't know all the details
> to know what the Lord had in mind. God sees the end from the
beginning,
> unlike us.
As he doesn't exist, he can't see anything.
> We see the act and are horrified, as we should be.- towards the
> act, not that God did nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to
ensure
> we have an easy life, quite the contrary.
How do you know that ? Have you spoken to him ?
>Life subject to God is hard, but
> He only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son,
Jesus.
And you know this through how, exactly ?
>
>> > The original post asked why would a God
>> > (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want
this,
> but
>> > allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
>> > evidenced.
>>
>> Then God's will seems very easy to thwart.
>
> God is in control of things, all accounts will be settled in His time.
His
> ways are not our ways.
Our ways are not his ways, thank fuck.
>We too easily place our own values on God and expect
> God to act as we would. When He doesn't, we get mad and tend to reject
God
> forgetting that God respects no person in bring about His will.
Remaining pathetic tartuffery deleted.........
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>
>> > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and
>> > beat people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the
>> > consequences of
> that
>> > but never the less it is my choice.
>>
>> And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
>>
>
> Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came
> from it. Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after
> this happened. Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too. We
> don't know all the details to know what the Lord had in mind. God
> sees the end from the beginning, unlike us. We see the act and are
> horrified, as we should be.- towards the act, not that God did
> nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to ensure we have an
> easy life, quite the contrary. Life subject to God is hard, but He
> only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son,
> Jesus.
Gobbledygook. This is all millennia-age guesswork based on insecurity.
No proof is ever offered, with the exception of "we must have faith".
Poppycock. Observation alone is evidence enough there is no fantasy world
as you have described above.
>
>> > The original post asked why would a God
>> > (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want
>> > this,
> but
>> > allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would
>> > be evidenced.
>>
>> Then God's will seems very easy to thwart.
>
> God is in control of things,
If "god" is in control of things, why are things so out of control?
> all accounts will be settled in His
> time. His ways are not our ways.
Got any proof this isn't just hearsay?
> We too easily place our own values
> on God and expect God to act as we would. When He doesn't, we get
> mad and tend to reject God forgetting that God respects no person in
> bring about His will.
Uncle Vic
(fea...@earthling.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
> Barry, we live in a fallen world.
No, we do not. What makes you think so? Modern advances in science and
medicine have nearly doubled the human lifespan in the last hundred years.
The only thing that stands in the way of scientific advancement is that
which has blocked it for the last 2,000 years, organized religion.
There's nothing wrong with the world, except that it is occupied by a lot
of fallen people who call themselves Christians.
> All of the horrible things you have
> outlined here are the result of that and nothing more. While God, in
> His PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not
> *cause* them.
If I *allow* my child to play with matches, then, I am not guilty of child
endangerment, since I did not cause her to burn herself. Nope, that
doesn't work either.
>
> The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death
> happens to every single one of us.
Physical death has *always* been happening to every single one of us. It
happens to everything alive on this planet. It happens to dogs,
butterflies, ebola bacteria, and it happened to our ancestors and their
ancestors and their ancestors all the way back billions of years ago when
life began. At what point was eternal life inserted?
>
> A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but
> keeps driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a
> heart attack at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the
> pedestrian. Does that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make
> him a victim of some vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an
> imperfect (fallen) world? No to the first two, yes to the third.
No, it makes him a victim of circumstance, as everything is. There are no
controls for the universe. It's as random as random gets.
>
> Hey, we have troubles in this life.
You mean we have troubles in life. There is only one life.
>
> You have every right to ask God these questions.
But don't expect an answer.
>
> My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
When you hear little voices in your head, don't you seek a psychiatrist?
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>
>
> Barry,
> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these
> events you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those
> mistreated or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who
> perform these crimes and get away with it?
Death is merely the end of life. It's obvious. I find it absolutely
ludicrous that one animal species out of millions has a gene for eternal
life. Especially when we observe the deaths of other members of our
species every day.
It's sad, but it's true. Life is cruel at times, we have to accept what
has happened and move on.
>
> If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical
> life is not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the
> certainty of justice concerning the events you brought up. The
> absolute cruelty of the situations above is if there is no certainty
> of justice and physical death is the end of the matter. In this case
> the definable value and meaning to life is lost and empty.
>
> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
> ultimate cruel existence. For if there is no God, and therefore no
> final justice, then what does it matter who and how one dies. For
> without God, we cannot even call these actions crime or tragic,
> because a definable ethic is lost.
>
Who said the universe was ethical? In fact, it's rather inhospitable.
Humans are supposed to be ethical. It's a survival technique we've
learned over hundreds of thousands of years of existing in societal
settings. Isn't it obvious? Societies that do not uphold these ethics
don't last long, do they? Unfortunately, natural selection doesn't play
favorites, and there is usually considerable collateral damage.
The original poster brought this subject up to illustrate the problem with
evil. The Christian god is defined as all-loving, all-powerful, and all-
knowing. If there was such a god, occurrances such as those described by
the OP would not happen. Since they do, almost on a daily basis, there is
no such god.
terry
thomas p wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:53:10 -0500, "terry" <te...@desk.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Barry OGrady wrote in message ...
>snip
>>Barry,
>>I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
>>you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
>>or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these
crimes
>>and get away with it?
>
>We would have to grow up and do our own thinking about such problems.
Thomas,
What is your own thinking about these problems? If physical death is the
final scene of 'living,' then what is meaning to life if your child is
murdered by a criminal?
>
>
>>
>>If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
>>not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of
justice
>>concerning the events you brought up. The absolute cruelty of the
>>situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical
death
>>is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
>>life is lost and empty.
>
>That is not true. It means that we do not have to look to a monster
>of a god for our values. It means that we face our responsibility for
>our lives.
Responsibility to whom for the uncaught murderer of your child?
>
>>
>>You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
ultimate
>>cruel existence.
>
>A life without fear of eternal punishment for being human is hardly
>the ultimate cruel existence.
Cruelty, IMHO, is the result of man's treatment of his fellow man. God
offers deliverance from this.
>
>
>>For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>>then what does it matter who and how one dies.
>
>Perhaps it means nothing to you. It means a great deal to me.
Please explain what it means to you if there is no God?
>
>>For without God, we cannot
>>even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
lost.
>
>Nonsense. They are crimes and they are tragic.
So what is the basis for your definable ethos? Yourself, the community, the
state, nation, globe? 51% of whose opinion?
> However, even if you
>were right, that says nothing about the existence of god.
Thomas, I disagree. The fact that there are common moral standards within
men points, IMO, to the innate placement of these 'laws' within the heart
of man by our creator. Take care.
Terry Ivy
terry
Uncle Vic wrote in message ...
>on 12 Aug 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet terry (te...@desk.com) made
>the light shine upon us with this:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Barry,
>> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these
>> events you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those
>> mistreated or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who
>> perform these crimes and get away with it?
>
>Death is merely the end of life. It's obvious.
Of physical life I agree!
> I find it absolutely
>ludicrous that one animal species out of millions has a gene for eternal
>life. Especially when we observe the deaths of other members of our
>species every day.
A gene for eternal life??? Not sure what you're getting at here. Eternal or
'life after death' is usually described as the immaterial part of man
(soul/spirit) living on after separation from the body.
>
>It's sad, but it's true. Life is cruel at times, we have to accept what
>has happened and move on.
Vic, I'm guessing you are not intending this, but this smacks of Stoicism
which says, "Whatever is, is right." If it is not right, say the murder of
a loved one, then what makes it wrong?
>
>>
>> If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical
>> life is not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the
>> certainty of justice concerning the events you brought up. The
>> absolute cruelty of the situations above is if there is no certainty
>> of justice and physical death is the end of the matter. In this case
>> the definable value and meaning to life is lost and empty.
>>
>> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
>> ultimate cruel existence. For if there is no God, and therefore no
>> final justice, then what does it matter who and how one dies. For
>> without God, we cannot even call these actions crime or tragic,
>> because a definable ethic is lost.
>>
>
>Who said the universe was ethical? In fact, it's rather inhospitable.
>Humans are supposed to be ethical.
If humans are supposed to be ethical, what is the basis of the ethic?
> It's a survival technique we've
>learned over hundreds of thousands of years of existing in societal
>settings. Isn't it obvious? Societies that do not uphold these ethics
>don't last long, do they? Unfortunately, natural selection doesn't play
>favorites, and there is usually considerable collateral damage.
>
>The original poster brought this subject up to illustrate the problem with
>evil. The Christian god is defined as all-loving, all-powerful, and all-
>knowing. If there was such a god, occurrances such as those described by
>the OP would not happen. Since they do, almost on a daily basis, there is
>no such god.
Vic, this is a misconception of how most present the understanding of God.
The OP neglects the existence and effects of evil in the world, and
therefore, attempts to lay responsibility upon God for everything. This is
crucial. There is certainly cruelty in the world and has been since the
beginning. However, this is the result of man's revolt against God, which
he was given the capacity to do as a result of free will. Therefore,
cruelty, IMO, cannot even be defined without a basis found in a Personal
Creator, and it's presence in the world does 'not' demonstrate the
non-existence of God.
Finally, thanks for having a respectful discussion on this. Most
demonstrate rudeness as some intimidating technique, but it only shows
their immaturity and ignorance. Take care and have a good day. I may be a
few days responding to any follow ups, my mother-in-law is having major
surgery Monday. But I'll respond as soon as possible.
Terry Ivy
terry
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote in message
<1123908740.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>
>terry wrote:
>
>>
>> Barry,
>> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
>> you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those
mistreated
>> or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these
crimes
>> and get away with it?
>>
>
Santolina,
You didn't answer the question. If the time of death, young or old,
concludes with your belief of "that's it," then what is the big deal
concerning any definition of 'mistreatment or cruelty?' If there is no
final justice, as in your worldview, then physical life beckons all to be
savages. So if your wife or child is murdered, and the criminal is not
caught, you just say, 'tah tah, whatever will be will be?'
[snip]
>
>> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
ultimate
>> cruel existence.
>
>
>Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
>universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
>knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
>
>The universe just IS,
So in your worldview, intelligience comes from non-intelligience, life from
matter, man from non-man, something from nothing. And you call this
rational?
> it has no capability of being cruel, it takes
>faux personal beings like God to manifest true cruelty.
>
>
>> For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>> then what does it matter who and how one dies.
>
>
>How small-minded you are. Nothing we humans do makes a fucking bit of
>difference, by your logic.
No difference! So why are you wasting time typing? By my worldview, there
is meaning and significance to life, love, justice and eternity.
>
>
>> For without God, we cannot
>> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
lost.
>>
>
>And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these concepts
>without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks overseeing the
>whole farce. Pathetic.
>
Not terrified at all. But found humanism lacking in giving meaning, true
value and purpose to life. Take care.
Terry Ivy
"Rudeness is the weak man's substitute for strength,
and cursing is the ignorant man's substitute for wisdom"
Santolina chamaecyparissus
terry wrote:
> Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote in message
> <1123908740.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
> >
> >terry wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Barry,
> >> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
> >> you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those
> mistreated
> >> or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these
> crimes
> >> and get away with it?
> >>
> >
> >Just a wild guess on my part, but that would be........er........death.
>
>
> Santolina,
> You didn't answer the question.
Yeah I did. When people die they are dead. Granted, it's an
impossibly complicated notion to wrap your head around...
> If the time of death, young or old,
> concludes with your belief of "that's it,"
There's no "belief" involved. There is the simple observation that
when people are dead we, the living, don't interact with them anymore.
> then what is the big deal
> concerning any definition of 'mistreatment or cruelty?'
Bzzzt. What is the "big deal" about "mistreatment or cruelty" if your
God exists?
> If there is no
> final justice, as in your worldview, then physical life beckons all to be
> savages.
You are a tiny, tiny individual. Unless a Cosmic Daddy is telling you
what to do and how to think you can't even conceive of thinking through
the consequences of your actions. That's just pathetic.
Assuming God exists, what prevents us from being "savages"?
> So if your wife or child is murdered, and the criminal is not
> caught, you just say, 'tah tah, whatever will be will be?'
>
Are you REALLY this stupid?
> [snip]
> >
> >> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
> ultimate
> >> cruel existence.
> >
> >
> >Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
> >universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
> >knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
> >
> >The universe just IS,
>
> So in your worldview, intelligience comes from non-intelligience, life from
> matter, man from non-man, something from nothing. And you call this
> rational?
>
[licking finger and sticking it up] Where did THIS come from?
Do you know what "cruelty" is?
>
> > it has no capability of being cruel, it takes
> >faux personal beings like God to manifest true cruelty.
> >
> >
> >> For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
> >> then what does it matter who and how one dies.
> >
> >
> >How small-minded you are. Nothing we humans do makes a fucking bit of
> >difference, by your logic.
>
> No difference! So why are you wasting time typing?
Because I don't adhere to your worldview.
> By my worldview, there
> is meaning and significance to life,
No there isn't, there's none, zero. Everything is what your Sky Daddy
wants it to be. Your own input is meaningless.
> love, justice and eternity.
>
> >
> >
> >> For without God, we cannot
> >> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
> lost.
> >>
> >
> >And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these concepts
> >without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks overseeing the
> >whole farce. Pathetic.
> >
>
> Not terrified at all.
Then show us that you can think about something without your putative
God telling you how. C'mon, be a grown-up.
terry
Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote in message
>When people die they are dead. Granted, it's an
>impossibly complicated notion to wrap your head around...
>
>
>> If the time of death, young or old,
>> concludes with your belief of "that's it,"
>
>
>There's no "belief" involved. There is the simple observation that
>when people are dead we, the living, don't interact with them anymore.
>
Here's one of your problems. We can observe physically the death of the
body, but what about the 'life' of man? Ever heard of soul/spirit or are
you locked away into some dwarfed humanistic epistemology? (i.e. sensory
experience and reason ONLY)
>
>
>> then what is the big deal
>> concerning any definition of 'mistreatment or cruelty?'
>
>
>Bzzzt. What is the "big deal" about "mistreatment or cruelty" if your
>God exists?
There's the certainty of justice! Your worldview offers none.
>
>
>> If there is no
>> final justice, as in your worldview, then physical life beckons all to
be
>> savages.
>
>
>You are a tiny, tiny individual. Unless a Cosmic Daddy is telling you
>what to do and how to think you can't even conceive of thinking through
>the consequences of your actions. That's just pathetic.
ad hominem
>
>Assuming God exists, what prevents us from being "savages"?
>
>
Through salvation, we are transformed by His Spirit into servants of
others, rather than self-centered 'little gods.'
>
>> So if your wife or child is murdered, and the criminal is not
>> caught, you just say, 'tah tah, whatever will be will be?'
>>
>
>
>Are you REALLY this stupid?
Santolina, I'll try to get around the continual ad hominem. You're missing
the question here. Without an absolute to be the basis of any moral
standard, you are left without any true meaning for distinguishing cruelty
and non-cruelty. You've possibly have never thought through this, for it is
a frequent discussion among those who are philosophically minded.
>
>
>> [snip]
>> >
>> >> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
>> ultimate
>> >> cruel existence.
>> >
>> >
>> >Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
>> >universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
>> >knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
>> >
>> >The universe just IS,
>>
>> So in your worldview, intelligience comes from non-intelligience, life
from
>> matter, man from non-man, something from nothing. And you call this
>> rational?
>>
>
>[licking finger and sticking it up] Where did THIS come from?
>
>Do you know what "cruelty" is?
>
Oh yes, because I have a standard whereby to give it an absolute
definition. You 'appear' not to have one......
[snip]
>> By my worldview, there
>> is meaning and significance to life,
>
>
>No there isn't, there's none, zero. Everything is what your Sky Daddy
>wants it to be. Your own input is meaningless.
You're wrong. In the Christian worldview there is a basis for the
existence, meaning and significance to life.
>
>
>> love, justice and eternity.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> For without God, we cannot
>> >> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
>> lost.
>> >>
>> >
>> >And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these concepts
>> >without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks overseeing the
>> >whole farce. Pathetic.
>> >
>>
>> Not terrified at all.
>
>
>Then show us that you can think about something without your putative
>God telling you how. C'mon, be a grown-up.
Grow up to what? To reject the obvious evidence of the existence of God
because I want to live self-centered and disrepectful. Abandon the innate
knowledge of the 'fact' that God exists in order to become foolish in my
reasonings? Split man up into the classical foundationalism's
epistemological framework and thereby deny the reality of what we are? Hide
behind name calling and cute statements to keep from having an insightful
conversation? I prefer to investigate various worldviews in order to look
for the answers to the big questions of life and find which one offers a
consistent rational explanation. This is what was key in my coming to
Christ as I came from a very non-religious family. Others choose various
explanations, and that is each one's perogative.
If conversation is what you are interested in, I'm all ears. If name
calling and disrespect is your cup of tea, you can share it with someone
else and I'll give you the last word. If conversation is what you want, it
may be a few days before I can respond for my mother-in-law is having major
surgery Monday morning. Either way, take care and thanks for your time....
Terry Ivy
Uncle Vic
the light shine upon us with this:
>>>
>>
>>Who said the universe was ethical? In fact, it's rather inhospitable.
>>Humans are supposed to be ethical.
>
> If humans are supposed to be ethical, what is the basis of the ethic?
Survival.
>
>
>> It's a survival technique we've
>>learned over hundreds of thousands of years of existing in societal
>>settings. Isn't it obvious? Societies that do not uphold these
>>ethics don't last long, do they? Unfortunately, natural selection
>>doesn't play favorites, and there is usually considerable collateral
>>damage.
>>
>>The original poster brought this subject up to illustrate the problem
>>with evil. The Christian god is defined as all-loving, all-powerful,
>>and all- knowing. If there was such a god, occurrances such as those
>>described by the OP would not happen. Since they do, almost on a
>>daily basis, there is no such god.
>
> Vic, this is a misconception of how most present the understanding of
> God. The OP neglects the existence and effects of evil in the world,
Really, how?
> and therefore, attempts to lay responsibility upon God for everything.
I don't think you understand. These are not unfortunate events here,
like a flash flood or a tornado. We're talking about actual evil human
beings, and there are plenty of them walking among us presently. Their
presence confirms the non-existence of a god as defined by Christianity,
since it sets up a contradiction in terms.
> This is crucial. There is certainly cruelty in the world and has been
> since the beginning. However, this is the result of man's revolt
> against God, which he was given the capacity to do as a result of free
> will.
If the god has knowledge of all, past, present and future, there can be
no free will. If there is free will, the god is not omniscient. But it
is defined that way, *and* all loving *and* all powerful. If it is all
loving it would want to do something to prevent evil, and if it is all
powerful it could do something to prevent evil. But it does not, so it
is either an evil god itself, or a non-existent one, as defined by
Christianity.
> Therefore, cruelty, IMO, cannot even be defined without a basis
> found in a Personal Creator, and it's presence in the world does 'not'
> demonstrate the non-existence of God.
That is simply not true. Mankind is a societal animal with a strong will
to survive. Natural selection breeds out the anti-social, leaving those
with the morality to conduct themselves socially. Gods are not needed,
as evidenced by the overwhelming population of religious inmates as
compared to atheist inmates in prisons worldwide.
>
> Finally, thanks for having a respectful discussion on this. Most
> demonstrate rudeness as some intimidating technique, but it only shows
> their immaturity and ignorance. Take care and have a good day. I may
> be a few days responding to any follow ups, my mother-in-law is having
> major surgery Monday. But I'll respond as soon as possible.
>
I wish her the best, I hope it is not life-threatening.
William T. Goat
Jerome wrote:
> > > My point is free will is free will. If I decide to burn kids and beat
> > > people up, that is my choice. I have to live with the consequences of
> that
> > > but never the less it is my choice.
> >
> > And God ignores the choices of the kids you burn?
>
> Perhaps it is God's will this happened, maybe a greater good came from it.
> Perhaps the mother of this child came to know the Lord after this happened.
> Maybe she brings others to know the Lord too. We don't know all the details
> to know what the Lord had in mind. God sees the end from the beginning,
> unlike us. We see the act and are horrified, as we should be.- towards the
> act, not that God did nothing to prevent it. God's mission is not to ensure
> we have an easy life, quite the contrary. Life subject to God is hard, but
> He only works to bring us closer to Him, to the likeness of His Son, Jesus.
Will Heaven be an easy life?
> > > The original post asked why would a God
> > > (who knew this would happen) allow this, and I say He doesn't want this,
> but
> > > allows man to do what He will for a time so that free will would be
> > > evidenced.
> >
> > Then God's will seems very easy to thwart.
>
> God is in control of things, all accounts will be settled in His time. His
> ways are not our ways. We too easily place our own values on God and expect
> God to act as we would. When He doesn't, we get mad and tend to reject God
> forgetting that God respects no person in bring about His will.
Have you fully thought through the implications of "God's ways are not
our ways?" For example, if you cling to God because you think He is
good, but God's "good" is not your "good", doesn't that mean God is not
the kind of "good" you wanted to cling to?
In other words, I think "God's ways are not our ways" is just an
admission that even *you* don't see the good in God.
--Billy
Santolina chamaecyparissus
terry wrote:
> Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote in message
> [snip]>
>
> >When people die they are dead. Granted, it's an
> >impossibly complicated notion to wrap your head around...
> >
> >
> >> If the time of death, young or old,
> >> concludes with your belief of "that's it,"
> >
> >
> >There's no "belief" involved. There is the simple observation that
> >when people are dead we, the living, don't interact with them anymore.
> >
>
> Here's one of your problems. We can observe physically the death of the
> body, but what about the 'life' of man?
Difference being?
> Ever heard of soul/spirit
Oh, goshers, no...
> or are
> you locked away into some dwarfed humanistic epistemology? (i.e. sensory
> experience and reason ONLY)
>
I am currently locked into the epistemology of what I can make sense
of. What is teeniest, tiniest bit of evidence that such a thing as the
"soul" objectively exists? And even if it did, what difference does
that make to our physical human existence?
>
> >
> >
> >> then what is the big deal
> >> concerning any definition of 'mistreatment or cruelty?'
> >
> >
> >Bzzzt. What is the "big deal" about "mistreatment or cruelty" if your
> >God exists?
>
> There's the certainty of justice!
Huh? How do you figure? "Justice" is an abstract concept, your "God"
is simply a putative Being that issues edicts. What reason is there to
think that the two concepts intersect?
> Your worldview offers none.
>
Cosmic Justice, like in a putative afterlife that doesn't really exist?
Correct, my worldview does not offer that. Tell me, all those
innocent people that your God commanded Joshua to remoreslessly
butcher, are they receiving Cosmic Justice even as I write?
> >
> >
> >> If there is no
> >> final justice, as in your worldview, then physical life beckons all to
> be
> >> savages.
> >
> >
> >You are a tiny, tiny individual. Unless a Cosmic Daddy is telling you
> >what to do and how to think you can't even conceive of thinking through
> >the consequences of your actions. That's just pathetic.
>
> ad hominem
Incorrect. You can prove me wrong by simply thinking through a moral
issue all by yourself without any reference to your putative God.
>
> >
> >Assuming God exists, what prevents us from being "savages"?
> >
> >
>
> Through salvation, we are transformed by His Spirit into servants of
> others, rather than self-centered 'little gods.'
>
And the reason I should think so, other than your trite cliche, is?
> >
> >> So if your wife or child is murdered, and the criminal is not
> >> caught, you just say, 'tah tah, whatever will be will be?'
> >>
> >
> >
> >Are you REALLY this stupid?
>
> Santolina, I'll try to get around the continual ad hominem.
Which you just uttered at me, hypocrite. You said that my only
response to the most horrific personal affront would be Her Majesty's
"tut tut." That is, you brazenly insult me, then get pissy when I call
you on it.
Paraphrasing, "so if those closest to you were murdered you really
wouldn't care?"
Fuck you.
> You're missing
> the question here. Without an absolute to be the basis of any moral
> standard,
Without somebody to do your thinking for you...
> you are left without any true meaning for distinguishing cruelty
> and non-cruelty.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRUELTY AND NON-CRUELTY EVEN IF
GOD EXISTS?????
BECAUSE GOD SAID SO????????
> You've possibly have never thought through this,
And you have the fucking GALL to accuse me of ad hominem.
> for it is
> a frequent discussion among those who are philosophically minded.
>
> >
> >
> >> [snip]
> >> >
> >> >> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
> >> ultimate
> >> >> cruel existence.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
> >> >universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
> >> >knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
> >> >
> >> >The universe just IS,
> >>
> >> So in your worldview, intelligience comes from non-intelligience, life
> from
> >> matter, man from non-man, something from nothing. And you call this
> >> rational?
> >>
> >
> >[licking finger and sticking it up] Where did THIS come from?
> >
> >Do you know what "cruelty" is?
> >
>
> Oh yes, because I have a standard whereby to give it an absolute
> definition. You 'appear' not to have one......
>
As I thought, you have no idea what the concept means.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> By my worldview, there
> >> is meaning and significance to life,
> >
> >
> >No there isn't, there's none, zero. Everything is what your Sky Daddy
> >wants it to be. Your own input is meaningless.
>
> You're wrong. In the Christian worldview there is a basis for the
> existence, meaning and significance to life.
>
Tell us, without reference to your putative God.
> >
> >
> >> love, justice and eternity.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> For without God, we cannot
> >> >> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
> >> lost.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these concepts
> >> >without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks overseeing the
> >> >whole farce. Pathetic.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Not terrified at all.
> >
> >
> >Then show us that you can think about something without your putative
> >God telling you how. C'mon, be a grown-up.
>
> Grow up to what? To reject the obvious evidence of the existence of God
Bzzzt.
> because I want to live self-centered and disrepectful.
To what?
> Abandon the innate
> knowledge of the 'fact' that God exists
Hoo-boy.
> in order to become foolish in my
> reasonings? Split man up into the classical foundationalism's
> epistemological framework and thereby deny the reality of what we are? Hide
> behind name calling and cute statements to keep from having an insightful
> conversation?
Why do you think I don't care about my loved ones? Or are you just a
hypocrite?
> I prefer to investigate various worldviews in order to look
> for the answers to the big questions of life
Another brazen insult, you assume that I do not/have not.
Fuck you.
> and find which one offers a
> consistent rational explanation. This is what was key in my coming to
> Christ as I came from a very non-religious family. Others choose various
> explanations, and that is each one's perogative.
>
> If conversation is what you are interested in, I'm all ears.
Why do you assume I am evil and unredeemed?
Fuck you, hypocrite.
> If name
> calling
Fuck you, hypocrite.
Too self-absorbed to even contemplate that others can reach moral
conclusions in the absence of your 3000 year old tribal Deity.
What a nauseating hypocrite.
> and disrespect is your cup of tea,
Preach it, brother. Say, tell me again that I don't give a shit about
my loved ones. Gotta love that ChristLove being smeared all over me.
Fred Stone
news:O4ydnZ2dnZ1DQ3XSnZ2dn...@netdoor.com:
>
> Santolina chamaecyparissus wrote in message
> <1123908740.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
>>
>>terry wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Barry,
>>> I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these
>>> events you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for
>>> those
> mistreated
>>> or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these
> crimes
>>> and get away with it?
>>>
>>
>>Just a wild guess on my part, but that would
>>be........er........death.
>
>
> Santolina,
> You didn't answer the question. If the time of death, young or old,
> concludes with your belief of "that's it," then what is the big deal
> concerning any definition of 'mistreatment or cruelty?' If there is no
> final justice, as in your worldview, then physical life beckons all to
> be savages. So if your wife or child is murdered, and the criminal is
> not caught, you just say, 'tah tah, whatever will be will be?'
>
That's what belief in an afterlife encourages. "God will make it all
right in the end". "I'll see my child in Heaven".
If this life is all we've got, then it is precious to us *while we're
alive*. Life beckons us *to live*. Savagery is what you get when you let
belief in God run things.
> [snip]
>>
>>> You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
> ultimate
>>> cruel existence.
>>
>>
>>Um, no, brainiac, the universe without God is just the universe. The
>>universe WITH God is the ultimate in cruelty, since a personal Being
>>knowingly allows these horrific things to happen.
>>
>>The universe just IS,
>
> So in your worldview, intelligience comes from non-intelligience, life
> from matter, man from non-man, something from nothing. And you call
> this rational?
>
Sure it's rational. Intelligence is a property of a physical system. So
is life. Man is nothing special among animals. And where did God come
from? Oh, he's always been there? Then why can't "something" have always
been there? Isn't God something?
>
>> it has no capability of being cruel, it takes
>>faux personal beings like God to manifest true cruelty.
>>
>>
>>> For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>>> then what does it matter who and how one dies.
>>
>>
>>How small-minded you are. Nothing we humans do makes a fucking bit of
>>difference, by your logic.
>
> No difference! So why are you wasting time typing? By my worldview,
> there is meaning and significance to life, love, justice and eternity.
>
But nothing *in this world* matters a hoot, you're just marking time
until you get to join in the Eternal Warm Fuzzies.
>>
>>
>>> For without God, we cannot
>>> even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic
>>> is
> lost.
>>>
>>
>>And terrified little gits like you can't even comprehend these
>>concepts without your 3000 year old tribal deity with buttocks
>>overseeing the whole farce. Pathetic.
>>
>
> Not terrified at all. But found humanism lacking in giving meaning,
> true value and purpose to life. Take care.
>
That's your problem, you want something to *give* you meaning. You could
*make your own* meaning, but that would require effort on your part.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Why, it appears that we appointed all of our worst generals
to command the armies and we appointed all of our best generals
to edit the newspapers. I mean, I found by reading a newspaper
that these editor generals saw all of the defects plainly from
the start but didn't tell me until it was too late. I'm willing
to yield my place to these best generals and I'll do my best
for the cause by editing a newspaper."
Robert E. Lee
thomas p
>
>thomas p wrote in message ...
>>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:53:10 -0500, "terry" <te...@desk.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Barry OGrady wrote in message ...
>>snip
>>>Barry,
>>>I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
>>>you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
>>>or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these
>crimes
>>>and get away with it?
>>
>>We would have to grow up and do our own thinking about such problems.
>
>Thomas,
>What is your own thinking about these problems? If physical death is the
>final scene of 'living,' then what is meaning to life if your child is
>murdered by a criminal?
It means that I will never see my child again. It means that my child
will never have a chance to experience all that life has to offer. It
means a great deal more, none of which requires a god.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
>>>not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of
>justice
>>>concerning the events you brought up. The absolute cruelty of the
>>>situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical
>death
>>>is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
>>>life is lost and empty.
>>
>>That is not true. It means that we do not have to look to a monster
>>of a god for our values. It means that we face our responsibility for
>>our lives.
>
>Responsibility to whom for the uncaught murderer of your child?
I can make no sense out of the above. However dealing with crime and
those people who are a danger to the rest of us is a responsibility
that we have to face. It is a responsibility to ourselves.
>
>>
>>>
>>>You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
>ultimate
>>>cruel existence.
>>
>>A life without fear of eternal punishment for being human is hardly
>>the ultimate cruel existence.
>
>Cruelty, IMHO, is the result of man's treatment of his fellow man. God
>offers deliverance from this.
He also offers eterenal punishment. He also allows cruelty and is the
cause of a great deal of it during life (all of it actually). Of
course that would assume that he existed.
>
>>
>>
>>>For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>>>then what does it matter who and how one dies.
>>
>>Perhaps it means nothing to you. It means a great deal to me.
>
>Please explain what it means to you if there is no God?
I have no idea what you mean. Don't you want to live? Wouldn't you
rather live a good life than a bad one? Life is limited, but that
does not mean that what happens during it has no meaning or interest -
the exact opposite actually. I would think that would be obvious.
>
>
>>
>>>For without God, we cannot
>>>even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is
>lost.
>>
>>Nonsense. They are crimes and they are tragic.
>
>So what is the basis for your definable ethos? Yourself, the community, the
>state, nation, globe? 51% of whose opinion?
How do you judge Christianity to be good? On what do you base such a
decision?
>
>> However, even if you
>>were right, that says nothing about the existence of god.
>
>Thomas, I disagree. The fact that there are common moral standards within
>men points, IMO, to the innate placement of these 'laws' within the heart
>of man by our creator. Take care.
The fact that men living together have a need to encourage certain
types of behavior and discourage others is not evidence for a god.
The fact that we recognize the need is evidence for our intelligence.
The fact that we do not always do what is required is evidence that
the world is not perfect; which is pretty good evidence that a
perfect, loving god does not exist.
Katt
>>Ages, when everyone was much closer to death than most of the people
>>reading
>>this post, atheism was much rarer.
In the Middle Ages, the *best possible way* of putting yourself 'much closer
to death than most of the people reading this post' was to do or say
something that revealed you were an atheist. In terms of risky behaviour, it
was right up there with sucking a black-rat popsicle...
>>There is some truth to the saying that
>>there are no atheists in foxholes.
>
> There is no truth to it.
Damn right:
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
http://www.mindspring.com/~alutiiq/atheists-in-foxholes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheists_in_foxholes
Katt.
Apostate
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:07:23 +0200, thomas p <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> tells that:
>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:50:16 -0500, "terry" <te...@desk.com> wrote:
>
>>The fact that there are common moral standards within
>>men points, IMO, to the innate placement of these 'laws' within the heart
>>of man by our creator. Take care.
Only in identical measure as it points to that "creator's" being a communal projection,
not unlike so many other never-seen 'personalitites' of legend and myth.
--
/Apostate
alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
e-mail to lower-case only
I don't believe in atheists
--
a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy
bringeth men's minds about to religion.
"Apostate" <apostate.in...@yeehaw.org> wrote in message
news:euruf1924ar3g16bh...@4ax.com...
> piggybacking
<smack>
Trolling
Feather Forestwalker
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker <fea...@earthling.net> wrote:
>
>
>>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>>
>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>
>>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>
>>Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
>
>
If He had needed or wanted to, sure. (and since I somehow missed that it
was an ARSON fire, let me correct myself - it is the arsonist's fault).
>
>
>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>>shooter.
>
>
> Could God have prevented it?
Again, yes. If He had seen a need or desire to.
>
>
>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>>>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>
>>Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault.
>
>
> Is God powerless?
Of course not. God is Omnipotent. He has ALL power in the universe and
it is we humans who often stand in His way - and through His permissive
will, He allows us to stand in His way and see the consequences of not
allowing Him to be Who He wants to be, in our lives, both collectively
and individually.
>
>
>>Assigning
>>blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
>>of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
>
>
> If only God can save us then God is responsible for everything.
That limits God to being something He is not: you think that since He
should be responsible for everything that He somehow *owes* us humans a
good life?
Hey, He *made* us. *We* made the mess. *He* will clean it up someday,
but not until He's given each and every man, woman and child on the face
of this earth, the chance to choose or reject Him.
>
>
>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
>>>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>>Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen. If the earthquake happened far
>>out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
>
>
> God is showing off at our expense?
Oh, let's see. God creates the world and everything that lives, in it.
Somehow *all* natural disasters are therefore His fault? I think not.
Natural disasters are a result, again, of living in an imperfect and
fallen (from grace) world.
We were reading in the Bible this morning about how all creation groans
in anticipation of being redeemed from the processes of decay that
currently exists:
Romans 8:20-25 (NIV)
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the
creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the
pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we
ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we
wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.
Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not
yet have, we wait for it patiently.
This is a hope that I cling to, and wait patiently for.
>
>
>>>So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>>>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
>>
>>>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
>>
>>Who made the plane, God or man?
>
>
> Who made the man?
Yes, God did. My answer *was* rather weak. There could have been
something faulty with a fuel line, or a wind shear could have caused the
plane to lose altitude, or, if it had been flying out over the ocean and
all of a sudden a methane gas bubble erupted, it could have caused the
engine to stall (especially if it was a combustion-engine), thereby
causing it to fall into the sea and kill everyone on board. That's not
God's *fault* - it's a process of things that happen every day in this
world that is imperfect as a result of man's original disobedience.
>
>
>>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>>
>>No.
>
>
> Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
How does all things being possible make God's will always done? How do
you leap from possibilities to will and control?
While God *is* Sovereign over all things, He does give us minds of our
own to use. When we make bad choices, therefore, it is not God's fault;
we *must* assume responsibility for our own actions. That's almost as
bad as some Christian doing a bad thing and saying "the devil made me do
it." Scripture clearly states that no temptation has overcome us that is
uncommon, and that GOD is faithful in providing a way out. When we
*allow* temptations to overcome us, it is *our own* weakness. It is then
that we must pray to God for the strength to overcome said weaknesses,
in whatever form they come.
>
>
>>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>>>addicted tormentor?
>>
>>Again NO.
>
>
> Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
Again you leap from possible to control. God's *permissive* will is not
His *active* *controlling* will.
>
>
>>Barry, we live in a fallen world.
>
>
> Is it your GOD's will that we live in a fallen world? Was it God's will to trick Adam and
> Eve to give him an excuse to downgrade us?
*LOL* Of course not. He gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE and they made the
wrong one.
>
>
>>All of the horrible things you have
>>outlined here are the result of that and nothing more.
>
>
> How is the fallen world not God's responsibility?
> How does the fallen world prevent God from making things better by preventing bad
> things?
Because there is a time for every purpose under heaven. It is not time
to redeem this fallen world, this imperfect world, from the bondage of
decay yet. I have no idea when, I only have hope, and in the meantime,
do all I can to help in some way - whether it's feeding hungry people or
helping them learn a new trade; whatever it is, it's according to what
ministry God has given me to do with the support of many members of His
Church Body.
>
>
>>While God, in His
>>PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
>
>
> So it is God's will that bad things happen.
No. It is PERMISSIVE in that He *allows* it, rather than *causes* it.
Like a dad will permissively allow his toddler to experiment with
climbing a ladder, for example. A wise father may place pillows at the
bottom of the ladder in case his toddler falls. The lesson learned from
that fall will hopefully instill in the toddler a healthy respect for
ladders in the future. God's permissive will is similar with us, His
children. He allows the Christian to stumble in their walk - all the
while hoping we learn something from our fall. If we don't, He again
allows us to go through whatever it is we must go through; in order to
learn from our mistakes.
> God did cause the things that cause bad things, right?
No. God allows things to happen sometimes, and I don't understand it all
of the time.
There's a message contained in one of the gospels about a man who had
been born blind. The Scribes and Pharisee's came to Jesus and asked Him:
"What did this man's parents do, that this man was born blind?" (For
they believed very strongly in the Old Testament-based covenant that
stated the sins of the father would be visited on the sons). So, Jesus
simply told them that the man was born blind so that the glory of God
would be revealed in Him - that many would believe on Jesus as the Son
of God.
Sometimes God's reasons for allowing things to happen aren't as
apparent. I wish they were, but at the same time, trust Him that He
knows what He is doing.
>
>
>>The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
>>to every single one of us.
>
>
> And has happened for millions of years before man came on the scene.
*IF* you believe that this world is millions of years old. I simply do
not. :)
Death came into the world as a result of sin - that sin being first and
foremost, disobedience to God, the Creator. He made humans in His own
image, and since He never dies, humans didn't die, either. When
believer's die, they have a new home in eternity, with God.
>
>
>>A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but keeps
>>driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a heart attack
>>at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the pedestrian. Does
>>that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make him a victim of some
>>vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an imperfect (fallen) world? No
>>to the first two, yes to the third.
>
>
> Could God have prevented it?
Yes, IF He so chose to, He could have.
>
>
>>Hey, we have troubles in this life.
>>
>>You have every right to ask God these questions.
>
>
> I'll leave that to you.
Why? I am not God, nor do I have all the answers, and only wish that
there were some way to convince you, when I know that I cannot. I *must*
leave that in God's most capable Hands, and pray that He brings someone
to you, or that He would reveal Himself to you.
>
>
>>My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
>
>
> Is it your GOD's will that his creations are unable to answer satisfactorily?
*LOL* No, of course not. I am just not as good at apologetics as some
others are. :)
God bless you, Barry,
Feather
Eric Gill
>
>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson
>> fire. What did the little girl do to deserve such a painful death?
>
> Typical.
Running Dog Dave cops out again?
Depressingly so.
> Man does bad things and then man blames God.
Or, rather, Liar Dave looks to blame God's mistakes on the victims.
Heh. All this time and you're still a pathetic, craven liar Dave. Don't you
ever get tired of the moral low ground?
thomas p
<fea...@DONTWANTNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker <fea...@earthling.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>>>
>>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>>>
>>>Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
>>
>>
>> Could God have prevented it?
>
>If He had needed or wanted to, sure. (and since I somehow missed that it
>was an ARSON fire, let me correct myself - it is the arsonist's fault).
And god's.
>
>>
>>
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>>
>>>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>>>shooter.
>>
>>
>> Could God have prevented it?
>
>Again, yes. If He had seen a need or desire to.
Again, he didn't; he is responsible.
>
>>
>>
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>>>>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>>
>>>Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault.
Of course it is, unless he doesn't exist.
>>
>>
>> Is God powerless?
>
>Of course not. God is Omnipotent. He has ALL power in the universe and
>it is we humans who often stand in His way - and through His permissive
>will, He allows us to stand in His way and see the consequences of not
>allowing Him to be Who He wants to be, in our lives, both collectively
>and individually.
The above is one, big contradiction.
>
>>
>>
>>>Assigning
>>>blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
>>>of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
>>
>>
>> If only God can save us then God is responsible for everything.
>
>That limits God to being something He is not: you think that since He
>should be responsible for everything that He somehow *owes* us humans a
>good life?
Irrelevant. He could stop it. He didn't. He is responsible.
>
>Hey, He *made* us. *We* made the mess. *He* will clean it up someday,
>but not until He's given each and every man, woman and child on the face
>of this earth, the chance to choose or reject Him.
Irrelevant. He is responsible - for everything.
>
>>
>>
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
>>>>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>>
>>>Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen. If the earthquake happened far
>>>out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
>>
>>
>> God is showing off at our expense?
>
>Oh, let's see. God creates the world and everything that lives, in it.
>Somehow *all* natural disasters are therefore His fault? I think not.
Then you are not thinking at all.
>Natural disasters are a result, again, of living in an imperfect and
>fallen (from grace) world.
The world he made.
>
>We were reading in the Bible this morning about how all creation groans
>in anticipation of being redeemed from the processes of decay that
>currently exists:
>
>Romans 8:20-25 (NIV)
>
>20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
>but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the
>creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
>into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
>
> 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the
>pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we
>ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we
>wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24
>For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.
>Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not
>yet have, we wait for it patiently.
>
>This is a hope that I cling to, and wait patiently for.
In the meantime it is god's fault - all of it.
>
>>
>>
>>>>So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
>>>
>>>>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
>>>
>>>Who made the plane, God or man?
>>
>>
>> Who made the man?
>
>Yes, God did. My answer *was* rather weak. There could have been
>something faulty with a fuel line, or a wind shear could have caused the
>plane to lose altitude, or, if it had been flying out over the ocean and
>all of a sudden a methane gas bubble erupted, it could have caused the
>engine to stall (especially if it was a combustion-engine), thereby
>causing it to fall into the sea and kill everyone on board. That's not
>God's *fault* - it's a process of things that happen every day in this
>world that is imperfect as a result of man's original disobedience.
He made man. He made the world. It is his fault, and that is quite
obvious. Of course all that assumes his existence.
Snip of more of the same, i.e. god is all powerful; god made
everything; god knows everything; but he is not responsible; i.e. one
contradiction after the other.
Barry OGrady
>Barry OGrady wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:48:19 GMT, Feather Forestwalker <fea...@earthling.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>(SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT)
>>>
>>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl
>>>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>>>
>>>Nothing: accidents happen and it's no one's fault.
>>
>>
>> Could God have prevented it?
>
>If He had needed or wanted to, sure. (and since I somehow missed that it
>was an ARSON fire, let me correct myself - it is the arsonist's fault).
Do I understand you to be saying that God doesn't do what he should because
no-one can make him?
Is it God's fault for making fire dangerous and creating arsonists?
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet meant for a teenage drug
>>>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>>
>>>Nothing. Again, accidents happen and this time, it's the fault of the
>>>shooter.
>>
>>
>> Could God have prevented it?
>
>Again, yes. If He had seen a need or desire to.
That is a powerful condemnation of God.
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two adults and three young
>>>>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>>
>>>Nothing. Horrible things happen and it's not God's fault.
>>
>>
>> Is God powerless?
>
>Of course not. God is Omnipotent. He has ALL power in the universe and
>it is we humans who often stand in His way - and through His permissive
>will, He allows us to stand in His way and see the consequences of not
>allowing Him to be Who He wants to be, in our lives, both collectively
>and individually.
Along with all power goes all responsibility.
>>>Assigning
>>>blame to God, or assuming that someone has to do something "deserving"
>>>of such a horrid death assumes that we can save ourselves.
>>
>>
>> If only God can save us then God is responsible for everything.
>
>That limits God to being something He is not: you think that since He
>should be responsible for everything that He somehow *owes* us humans a
>good life?
When God decided to create beings with thoughts and feeling he took on
the responsibility to care for us.
>Hey, He *made* us. *We* made the mess.
My point precisely.
>*He* will clean it up someday,
Why?
>but not until He's given each and every man, woman and child on the face
>of this earth, the chance to choose or reject Him.
That is so selfish on God's part.
>>>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in your GOD's name,
>>>>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>>
>>>Again, nothing. Natural disasters happen. If the earthquake happened far
>>>out to see and no one died, no tsunami was triggered, did it happen?
>>
>>
>> God is showing off at our expense?
>
>Oh, let's see. God creates the world and everything that lives, in it.
>Somehow *all* natural disasters are therefore His fault?
That logically follows.
>I think not.
>Natural disasters are a result, again, of living in an imperfect and
>fallen (from grace) world.
The world that God created?
>We were reading in the Bible this morning about how all creation groans
>in anticipation of being redeemed from the processes of decay that
>currently exists:
Can't love a God that allows that.
>Romans 8:20-25 (NIV)
>
>20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
>but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the
>creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
>into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
>
> 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the
>pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we
>ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we
>wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24
>For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.
>Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not
>yet have, we wait for it patiently.
>
>This is a hope that I cling to, and wait patiently for.
Your low opinion of God noted.
>>>>So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>>>>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your GOD's will that a seven
>>>
>>>>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a friend/teacher?
>>>
>>>Who made the plane, God or man?
>>
>>
>> Who made the man?
>
>Yes, God did. My answer *was* rather weak. There could have been
>something faulty with a fuel line, or a wind shear could have caused the
>plane to lose altitude, or, if it had been flying out over the ocean and
>all of a sudden a methane gas bubble erupted, it could have caused the
>engine to stall (especially if it was a combustion-engine), thereby
>causing it to fall into the sea and kill everyone on board. That's not
>God's *fault* - it's a process of things that happen every day in this
>world that is imperfect as a result of man's original disobedience.
It wasn't man's disobedience that caused the problem. Its God's hissy
fit that he can't get over. Its obvious that God never intended for his creations
to live a good life but he wanted to escape blame, so he came up with
the pathetic excuse of original sin. Adam and Eve were set up.
>>>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by another child?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>
>> Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
>
>How does all things being possible make God's will always done? How do
>you leap from possibilities to will and control?
God wants his will done. God has the ability to have his will done.
>While God *is* Sovereign over all things, He does give us minds of our
>own to use. When we make bad choices, therefore, it is not God's fault;
How can it not be the fault of the one with all power and our creator?
>we *must* assume responsibility for our own actions. That's almost as
>bad as some Christian doing a bad thing and saying "the devil made me do
>it."
In the real word we must take responsibility.
>Scripture clearly states that no temptation has overcome us that is
>uncommon, and that GOD is faithful in providing a way out. When we
>*allow* temptations to overcome us, it is *our own* weakness.
A weakness in our God given nature.
>It is then that we must pray to God for the strength to overcome said
>weaknesses, in whatever form they come.
Wouldn't that make God responsible for not giving us all that strength from
the start?
>>>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten to death by her drug
>>>>addicted tormentor?
>>>
>>>Again NO.
>>
>>
>> Yet all things are possible for God so God's will is always done.
>
>Again you leap from possible to control. God's *permissive* will is not
>His *active* *controlling* will.
Why not? Is God insane?
>>>Barry, we live in a fallen world.
>>
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that we live in a fallen world? Was it God's will to trick Adam and
>> Eve to give him an excuse to downgrade us?
>
>*LOL* Of course not.
Interesting. What was the force creator than God that compelled God to make our
world fallen and to maintain it that way?
>He gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE and they made the wrong one.
So if God had not given Adam and Eve a choice we would all be living an excellent
life?
>>>All of the horrible things you have
>>>outlined here are the result of that and nothing more.
>>
>>
>> How is the fallen world not God's responsibility?
>> How does the fallen world prevent God from making things better by preventing bad
>> things?
>
>Because there is a time for every purpose under heaven. It is not time
>to redeem this fallen world, this imperfect world, from the bondage of
>decay yet.
Seems God has not finished toying with us.
>I have no idea when, I only have hope, and in the meantime,
>do all I can to help in some way - whether it's feeding hungry people or
>helping them learn a new trade; whatever it is, it's according to what
>ministry God has given me to do with the support of many members of His
>Church Body.
Is it God's will that you defy God's will?
>>>While God, in His
>>>PERMISSIVE WILL, *allows* such things to happen, He did not *cause* them.
>>
>>
>> So it is God's will that bad things happen.
>
>No. It is PERMISSIVE in that He *allows* it, rather than *causes* it.
Are you saying that God is slack?
>Like a dad will permissively allow his toddler to experiment with
>climbing a ladder, for example. A wise father may place pillows at the
>bottom of the ladder in case his toddler falls. The lesson learned from
>that fall will hopefully instill in the toddler a healthy respect for
>ladders in the future. God's permissive will is similar with us, His
>children. He allows the Christian to stumble in their walk - all the
>while hoping we learn something from our fall. If we don't, He again
>allows us to go through whatever it is we must go through; in order to
>learn from our mistakes.
The comparison is invalid unless God has the same limitations as
a human parent.
>> God did cause the things that cause bad things, right?
>
>No. God allows things to happen sometimes, and I don't understand it all
>of the time.
God did create the things that cause bad things, right?
>There's a message contained in one of the gospels about a man who had
>been born blind. The Scribes and Pharisee's came to Jesus and asked Him:
>"What did this man's parents do, that this man was born blind?" (For
>they believed very strongly in the Old Testament-based covenant that
>stated the sins of the father would be visited on the sons). So, Jesus
>simply told them that the man was born blind so that the glory of God
>would be revealed in Him - that many would believe on Jesus as the Son
>of God.
That's terrible. God has no consideration for people.
>Sometimes God's reasons for allowing things to happen aren't as
>apparent. I wish they were, but at the same time, trust Him that He
>knows what He is doing.
Thank you for admitting that you are not happy with God.
>>>The result of living in a fallen world is death. Physical death happens
>>>to every single one of us.
>>
>>
>> And has happened for millions of years before man came on the scene.
>
>*IF* you believe that this world is millions of years old. I simply do
>not. :)
Why not?
>Death came into the world as a result of sin - that sin being first and
>foremost, disobedience to God, the Creator.
Sin came into the world as a result of God.
>He made humans in His own
>image, and since He never dies, humans didn't die, either. When
>believer's die, they have a new home in eternity, with God.
What do you think would have happened if God had not tricked
Adam and Eve?
>>>A man is driving in his car; he hits someone and kills them, but keeps
>>>driving. Later, he discovered in his car, dead. He'd had a heart attack
>>>at the wheel just prior to accidentally killing the pedestrian. Does
>>>that make him a hit and run driver? Does that make him a victim of some
>>>vindictive God? Does it mean we live in an imperfect (fallen) world? No
>>>to the first two, yes to the third.
>>
>>
>> Could God have prevented it?
>
>Yes, IF He so chose to, He could have.
Such a God is no better than no God.
>>>Hey, we have troubles in this life.
>>>
>>>You have every right to ask God these questions.
>>
>>
>> I'll leave that to you.
>
>Why?
God does not talk to me.
>I am not God, nor do I have all the answers, and only wish that
>there were some way to convince you, when I know that I cannot. I *must*
>leave that in God's most capable Hands, and pray that He brings someone
>to you, or that He would reveal Himself to you.
Has God flashed you?
>>>My prayer is that He answers you much better than people can.
>>
>>
>> Is it your GOD's will that his creations are unable to answer satisfactorily?
>
>*LOL* No, of course not. I am just not as good at apologetics as some
>others are. :)
Your God seems to be quite weak.
>God bless you, Barry,
>
>Feather
Barry
Barry OGrady
>Barry OGrady wrote in message ...
>>So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn to death in an arson fire.
>What did the little girl
>>do to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Another young child dies on the way to the hospital after taking a bullet
>meant for a teenage drug
>>dealer. What did this child do to deserve a death such as this?
>>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>A family of five is bludgeoned to death by intruders in their home. Two
>adults and three young
>>children. What did they do to deserve this treatment?
>>
>>So you think there is a GOD, 'eh?
>>Men, women, and children are crushed to death in an earthquake. What, in
>your GOD's name,
>>did they do to deserve such punishment?
>>
>>So you think there's a GOD, 'eh?
>>All knowing, All seeing, All caring, All loving,.............. Is it your
>GOD's will that a seven
>>year old girl dies in a plane crash, along with her father and a
>friend/teacher?
>>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a four year old boy is beaten to death by
>another child?
>>
>>Is it your GOD's will that a five year old girl is raped and then beaten
>to death by her drug
>>addicted tormentor?
>>
>>Barry
>
>
>Barry,
>I would like to ask you a question. If there is no God, and these events
>you listed still happen, what is the reality of life for those mistreated
>or killed? At death, that is it? What about those who perform these crimes
>and get away with it?
When we die we no longer exist.
>If there is a God (I believe there is), then our time of physical life is
>not the end of the issue and God is able to bring the certainty of justice
>concerning the events you brought up.
That's illogical. Are you going to wait until your children become adults before
punishing them for what they did as children? When house training a dog do
you chastise the dog three weeks after discovering a mess in the house?
What you suggest God does is not justice, and we can't trust the same
God who creates injustice while we are alive to suddenly change and be
just after we have died.
>The absolute cruelty of the
>situations above is if there is no certainty of justice and physical death
>is the end of the matter. In this case the definable value and meaning to
>life is lost and empty.
Depression is a terrible thing. I suggest you consult a psychiatrist.
>You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the ultimate
>cruel existence.
How would it be different?
>For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>then what does it matter who and how one dies. For without God, we cannot
>even call these actions crime or tragic, because a definable ethic is lost.
Please do seek help. You need to find meaning in your life.
Some people find meaning by pretending their is a God.
>Terry Ivy
Pastor Dave
<eric...@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn
>>> to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl do
>>> to deserve such a painful death?
>>
>> Typical.
>
>Running Dog Dave cops out again?
>
>Depressingly so.
>
>> Man does bad things and then man blames God.
>
>Or, rather, Liar Dave looks to blame God's mistakes
>n the victims.
>
>Heh. All this time and you're still a pathetic, craven liar
>Dave. Don't you ever get tired of the moral low ground?
Okay, so it wasn't man that committed arson.
Gotcha.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
"The word 'believe' comes from an Old English word,
'bylive'. What we believe, is what we live by.
Don't tell me you believe, if you don't live by it."
- Adrian Rogers
http://www.delusionresistance.org/creation/christ_scientific_creation.html
thomas p
<news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:23:33 GMT, Eric Gill
><eric...@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>>Barry OGrady wrote:
>>>> So you think there is a GOD 'eh?
>>>> A young woman and her 4 year old daughter burn
>>>> to death in an arson fire. What did the little girl do
>>>> to deserve such a painful death?
>>>
>>> Typical.
>>
>>Running Dog Dave cops out again?
>>
>>Depressingly so.
>>
>>> Man does bad things and then man blames God.
>>
>>Or, rather, Liar Dave looks to blame God's mistakes
>>n the victims.
>>
>>Heh. All this time and you're still a pathetic, craven liar
>>Dave. Don't you ever get tired of the moral low ground?
>
>Okay, so it wasn't man that committed arson.
>
>Gotcha.
The child didn't commit the arson. It was not the child's free will
to burn to death. Assuming the existence of your god, he stood by,
watched and did nothing. It was his fault.
terry
Uncle Vic wrote in message ...
>the light shine upon us with this:
>
>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Who said the universe was ethical? In fact, it's rather inhospitable.
>>>Humans are supposed to be ethical.
>>
>> If humans are supposed to be ethical, what is the basis of the ethic?
>
>Survival.
>
Vic, so if my survival means to do you harm, then that is o.k.?
>>
>>
>>> It's a survival technique we've
>>>learned over hundreds of thousands of years of existing in societal
>>>settings. Isn't it obvious? Societies that do not uphold these
>>>ethics don't last long, do they? Unfortunately, natural selection
>>>doesn't play favorites, and there is usually considerable collateral
>>>damage.
>>>
>>>The original poster brought this subject up to illustrate the problem
>>>with evil. The Christian god is defined as all-loving, all-powerful,
>>>and all- knowing. If there was such a god, occurrances such as those
>>>described by the OP would not happen. Since they do, almost on a
>>>daily basis, there is no such god.
>>
>> Vic, this is a misconception of how most present the understanding of
>> God. The OP neglects the existence and effects of evil in the world,
>
>Really, how?
Evil is the effect of sin in the world, and sin is the effect of man's
rebellion to God. Therefore, neither sin nor evil offers an argument for
the 'non-existence' of God. It is only a red herring for those looking for
an excuse for being an atheist.
>
>> and therefore, attempts to lay responsibility upon God for everything.
>
>I don't think you understand. These are not unfortunate events here,
>like a flash flood or a tornado. We're talking about actual evil human
>beings, and there are plenty of them walking among us presently. Their
>presence confirms the non-existence of a god as defined by Christianity,
>since it sets up a contradiction in terms.
I disagree. The contradiction is a result of an improper understanding of
what Christianity teaches theologically.
>
>> This is crucial. There is certainly cruelty in the world and has been
>> since the beginning. However, this is the result of man's revolt
>> against God, which he was given the capacity to do as a result of free
>> will.
>
>If the god has knowledge of all, past, present and future, there can be
>no free will.
Vic, this would be some of the improper understanding of Christianity which
I mentioned above. God's 'knowledge' of what will take place does not
negate 'free will' in any way, form or fashion. If I see young men lining
up to run a 100 yard dash, I 'know' that when the starter fires the gun,
the men are going to run. The fact that I 'know' this does not negate the
fact that each individual boy chose of their own 'free will' to run.
Therefore, there is not a contradiction of terms.
>If there is free will, the god is not omniscient. But it
>is defined that way, *and* all loving *and* all powerful. If it is all
>loving it would want to do something to prevent evil,
He has! He sent His Son to offer eternal life to those who would believe
and therefore offering them a place with Him in perfection. He did this
'knowing' man would rebel against Him and bring evil into the world, yet He
wanted to offer man rescue from this evil.
>and if it is all
>powerful it could do something to prevent evil.
Being all powerfull (omnipotent) never means doing that which is logically
contradictory. He created man with free will and this 'necessitates' man's
freedom and ability to choose evil! If the possibility of evil would not
have been included, then man would not have been 'free,' and all of his
actions would have been as an automaton.
> But it does not, so it
>is either an evil god itself, or a non-existent one, as defined by
>Christianity.
Faulty and answered above.
[snip]
>>
>> Finally, thanks for having a respectful discussion on this. Most
>> demonstrate rudeness as some intimidating technique, but it only shows
>> their immaturity and ignorance. Take care and have a good day. I may
>> be a few days responding to any follow ups, my mother-in-law is having
>> major surgery Monday. But I'll respond as soon as possible.
>>
>
>I wish her the best, I hope it is not life-threatening.
>
>
Vic, thanks for the concern. She came through surgery very well and is
presently recovering in the hospital. It was not life-threatening, but at
71, it was difficult for her physically.
Also, I enjoyed your website, seeing you are a biker enthusiast. I at times
get to ride my Father's Honda VTX 1800. Very nice road bike. He dressed it
out and has those 'Big Shot' pipes on it. My wife and I have taken a couple
of trips with others on it and enjoy it very much. But, we spend most of
our time riding 'bicycles' for health reasons and do not get out on the
1800 very often. Anyway, take care and have a wonderful day.....
Terry Ivy
terry
thomas p wrote in message ...
>
>>Thomas,
>>What is your own thinking about these problems? If physical death is the
>>final scene of 'living,' then what is meaning to life if your child is
>>murdered by a criminal?
>
>It means that I will never see my child again. It means that my child
>will never have a chance to experience all that life has to offer. It
>means a great deal more, none of which requires a god.
>
Thomas, thanks for an honest answer. At least you are stating properly what
the atheistic view offers in relation to death and life. However, in it is
the obvious cruelty of existence which permeates the understanding of those
who reject the existence of God. Reminds me of Bertrand Russell who wrote:
"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they
were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves
and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms;
tht no fire, no herosim, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve
an individual life beyond the grave; that all labors of the ages, all the
devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius,
are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that
the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the
debris of a universe in ruins--all these things, if not quite beyond
dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them
can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, ONLY ON THE
FIRM FOUNDATION OF UNYIELDING DESPAIR, CAN THE SOUL'S HABITATION HENCEFORTH
BE SAFELY BUILT." (Bertrand Russell, "A Free Man's Worship" emphasis mine)
What dispair and meaninglessness.
[snip]
>>>>You try to pin cruelty on God, when a universe without God is the
>>ultimate
>>>>cruel existence.
>>>
>
>>>A life without fear of eternal punishment for being human is hardly
>>>the ultimate cruel existence.
>>
>
>>Cruelty, IMHO, is the result of man's treatment of his fellow man. God
>>offers deliverance from this.
>
>
>He also offers eterenal punishment. He also allows cruelty and is the
>cause of a great deal of it during life (all of it actually). Of
>course that would assume that he existed.
>
Wrong. God offers eternal life. Man selects eternal punishment when he
rejects God's offer for 'life.' God does 'allow' cruelty, but this is the
necessary fact of free will, however God is not the 'cause' of cruelty,
that would be man's responsibility.
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>For if there is no God, and therefore no final justice,
>>>>then what does it matter who and how one dies.
>>>
>
>>>Perhaps it means nothing to you. It means a great deal to me.
>>
>
>>Please explain what it means to you if there is no God?
>
What I was meaning by this question, is that if there is not 'anything'
beyond the grave, and therefore no responsibilty for our actions (i.e. in
the spectrum of guaranteed justice), the when and how of our death is just
statistics. If we live today and die tomorrow and *that is it,* then how we
treat our fellow man or ourselves is meaningless, for it will carry no
repercussions for me. With this rationale, the terrorists of 911, face
nothing for their heartache and pain they brought upon the innocent
victims. OTOH, as a Christian, I believe they will stand before God and
face the consequences of their choices.
[snip]
>>
>>> However, even if you
>>>were right, that says nothing about the existence of god.
>>
>
>>Thomas, I disagree. The fact that there are common moral standards within
>>men points, IMO, to the innate placement of these 'laws' within the heart
>>of man by our creator. Take care.
>
>The fact that men living together have a need to encourage certain
>types of behavior and discourage others is not evidence for a god.
>The fact that we recognize the need is evidence for our intelligence.
But where did our 'intelligence' come from. Matter plus time plus chance
*cannot* produce 'intelligence.' Intelligence is not produced from
'non-intelligence,' only from 'intelligence.'
>The fact that we do not always do what is required is evidence that
>the world is not perfect; which is pretty good evidence that a
>perfect, loving god does not exist.
>
Faulty conclusion. The world is not perfect, and that is evidence that
something went wrong. And that *something* is man's revolt against God as
his creator. Christ's sacrifice on Calvary reveals the deep desire of God
to redeem man back into fellowship with Himself. Take care...
Terry Ivy