> An important thing I learned in first year Greek class:
> Why was Z up a tree?
> 'Cos he was short
> Who was short?
> Z of course
> No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all!
> He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in Greek > the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
Indeed. This is how Rotherham's translates Luke 19:2: "And he was seeking to see Jesus, what sort of man he was, and could not for the multitude, because in stature, he was small."
This is how Young's translates the same passage: "and he was seeking to see Jesus, who he is, and was not able for the multitude, because in stature he was small,"
And the KJV... And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
It is quite possible the description of height in this passage is referring to Jesus.
> Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking and macho > :-)?
Not for me. I have always envisioned Jesus being average height with darkened skin and with hair that reflected how other Jewish men had it. Based on what I have read (though I can't recall the reference) men wore their hair relatively short. I'm guessing Jesus would have done the same. The image of Jesus being a tall white anglo-saxon with long dark hair and blue eyes is probably not very accurate.
> If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical > description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
-An important thing I learned in first year Greek class: - -Why was Z up a tree? - -'Cos he was short - -Who was short? - -Z of course - -No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all! - -He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in Greek -the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-) - -Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking and macho -:-)? - -If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical -description of what Jesus looked like, physically. - -Class: What's the other reference?
> If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical > description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
> Class: What's the other reference?
Isaiah 53:2b - "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him."
The KJV uses the words form and comeliness for beauty and majesty, and in the hebrew (according to the concordance) they would be used in the sense to say that Jesus wouldn't really stand out because of his physical attributes. He looked like Joe Normal for his time. He wasn't a blue-eyed, blond, 6' 2" Swede. Take a look at the faces seen on TV of people from the middle east, and Jesus' face could probably fit in well and not even be noticed.
As for his height, I believe the average height of people in that region of the world at that time was relatively short by todays standards - 5' 4" to 5' 6".
The essence of who Jesus was wouldn't be found in his appearance, but rather in what he had to say.
> > If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical > > description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
> > Class: What's the other reference?
> Isaiah 53:2b > - "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his > appearance that we should desire him."
> The KJV uses the words form and comeliness for beauty and majesty, and > in the hebrew (according to the concordance) they would be used in the > sense to say that Jesus wouldn't really stand out because of his > physical attributes. He looked like Joe Normal for his time. He wasn't > a blue-eyed, blond, 6' 2" Swede. Take a look at the faces seen on TV > of people from the middle east, and Jesus' face could probably fit in > well and not even be noticed.
> As for his height, I believe the average height of people in that > region of the world at that time was relatively short by todays > standards - 5' 4" to 5' 6".
> The essence of who Jesus was wouldn't be found in his appearance, but > rather in what he had to say.
-news:78d11e29.0406240613.3e4cea17@posting.google.com... -> > If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical -> > description of what Jesus looked like, physically. -> > -> > Class: What's the other reference? -> -> Isaiah 53:2b -> - "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his -> appearance that we should desire him." -> -> The KJV uses the words form and comeliness for beauty and majesty, and -> in the hebrew (according to the concordance) they would be used in the -> sense to say that Jesus wouldn't really stand out because of his -> physical attributes. He looked like Joe Normal for his time. He wasn't -> a blue-eyed, blond, 6' 2" Swede. Take a look at the faces seen on TV -> of people from the middle east, and Jesus' face could probably fit in -> well and not even be noticed. -> -> As for his height, I believe the average height of people in that -> region of the world at that time was relatively short by todays -> standards - 5' 4" to 5' 6". -> -> The essence of who Jesus was wouldn't be found in his appearance, but -> rather in what he had to say. -> -> -> Michael21
>>An important thing I learned in first year Greek class:
>>Why was Z up a tree?
>>'Cos he was short
>>Who was short?
>>Z of course
>>No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all!
>>He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in Greek >>the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
>Indeed. This is how Rotherham's translates Luke 19:2: >"And he was seeking to see Jesus, what sort of man he was, and could >not for the multitude, because in stature, he was small."
>This is how Young's translates the same passage: >"and he was seeking to see Jesus, who he is, and was not able for the >multitude, because in stature he was small,"
>And the KJV... >And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, >because he was little of stature.
>It is quite possible the description of height in this passage is >referring to Jesus.
But it's far more likely referring to Zacchaeus. That would be the normal interpretation in those sentences. It's usual for short ppl to stand on a box or something- in this case climb a tree- in order to see over the (other) taller people. And the words "and could not for the multitude" reinforce the view that he was trying to see over the crowd.
>>Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking and macho >>:-)?
>Not for me. I have always envisioned Jesus being average height with >darkened skin and with hair that reflected how other Jewish men had >it. Based on what I have read (though I can't recall the reference) >men wore their hair relatively short. I'm guessing Jesus would have >done the same. The image of Jesus being a tall white anglo-saxon with >long dark hair and blue eyes is probably not very accurate.
>>If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical >>description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
>>Class: What's the other reference?
>I don't know, but I can't wait to see the answer.
-- rgds,
Pete. ----- http://pedro.spyw.com '"Why would I be happy? I'm married with children" - Al Bundy'
>>An important thing I learned in first year Greek class:
>>Why was Z up a tree?
>>'Cos he was short
>>Who was short?
>>Z of course
>>No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all!
>>He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in Greek >>the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
>Indeed. This is how Rotherham's translates Luke 19:2: >"And he was seeking to see Jesus, what sort of man he was, and could >not for the multitude, because in stature, he was small."
>This is how Young's translates the same passage: >"and he was seeking to see Jesus, who he is, and was not able for the >multitude, because in stature he was small,"
>And the KJV... >And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, >because he was little of stature.
>It is quite possible the description of height in this passage is >referring to Jesus.
But it's far more likely referring to Zacchaeus. That would be the normal interpretation in those sentences. It's usual for short ppl to stand on a box or something- in this case climb a tree- in order to see over the (other) taller people. And the words "and could not for the multitude" reinforce the view that he was trying to see over the crowd.
>>Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking and macho >>:-)?
>Not for me. I have always envisioned Jesus being average height with >darkened skin and with hair that reflected how other Jewish men had >it. Based on what I have read (though I can't recall the reference) >men wore their hair relatively short. I'm guessing Jesus would have >done the same. The image of Jesus being a tall white anglo-saxon with >long dark hair and blue eyes is probably not very accurate.
>>If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical >>description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
>>Class: What's the other reference?
>I don't know, but I can't wait to see the answer.
In article <af917414.0406240457.50b8a...@posting.google.com>, davidroman28dontspa...@yahoo.com (David Roman) wrote:
> Not for me. I have always envisioned Jesus being average height with > darkened skin and with hair that reflected how other Jewish men had > it. Based on what I have read (though I can't recall the reference) > men wore their hair relatively short. I'm guessing Jesus would have > done the same. The image of Jesus being a tall white anglo-saxon with > long dark hair and blue eyes is probably not very accurate.
LOL, ain't no 'probably' about it. Jesus was a Jew, and looked like a Jew. ;-)
It is true that in the majority of cases in the O.T. it was considered shameful for a man to wear long hair -- which can very easily lead to the biblical assumption that the Lord wore His hair cropped close ---
However, the biblical 'nazarite' vows included not cutting your hair, and letting it grow long. Samson was a nazarite (not a Nazarene) and he wore his hair long, well, until he crossed paths with Delilah of course.
But Yeshua was considered both a nazarite AND a Nazarene. We have no description in scripture about Him taking the nazarite vows; so His hair could have either been long OR short...we just don't know.
Bear in mind that taking the nazarite vows involved shaving every speck of hair off your body. and then letting it grow unshorn, for the whole duration of your vow.
Personally, I believe that He likely took His nazarite vows shortly before He embarked on His three year ministry, and that the duration of His vow was 'until He was finished.' Which would mean that at the opening of the Gospel, He would have been clean shaven and nearly bald, but by the time of the crucifixion He would have had a long beard and long hair (three years worth of un-cut growth on face and head).
But of course, there is really no way to know either way, until we get to heaven and can look for ourselves.
Rowland Croucher <rccrouc...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > An important thing I learned in first year Greek class:
> Why was Z up a tree?
> 'Cos he was short
> Who was short?
> Z of course
> No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all!
> He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in > Greek the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
> Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking > and macho :-)?
> If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical > description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
> Class: What's the other reference?
Somebody climbs onto a ladder because he can see better from there onto someone who is short...
How stupid do you think your readers are, Mr. Croucher?
You want to brainwash them. Like the serpent did with Eve and Adam in paradise... Just take what God has said and twist it a little... Like you do all the time...
>> He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in >> Greek the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
>> Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking >> and macho :-)?
>> If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical >> description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
>> Class: What's the other reference?
> Somebody climbs onto a ladder because he can see better from there > onto someone who is short...
> How stupid do you think your readers are, Mr. Croucher?
> You want to brainwash them. Like the serpent did with Eve and Adam in > paradise... Just take what God has said and twist it a little... Like > you do all the time...
Well, merciful heavens, if it isn't "I am leaving ACC for ever" Vera. It looks like either you define "for ever" as "three days," or else the "Vera" isn't short for "Veracity."
>>> He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in >>> Greek the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
>>> Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking >>> and macho :-)?
>>> If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical >>> description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
>>> Class: What's the other reference?
>> Somebody climbs onto a ladder because he can see better from there >> onto someone who is short...
>> How stupid do you think your readers are, Mr. Croucher?
>> You want to brainwash them. Like the serpent did with Eve and Adam in >> paradise... Just take what God has said and twist it a little... Like >> you do all the time...
> Well, merciful heavens, if it isn't "I am leaving ACC for ever" Vera. > It looks like either you define "for ever" as "three days," or else > the "Vera" isn't short for "Veracity."
Her actions speak for themselves eh? Enough said. -- regards,
"I'll Never Return to ACC"- a clue about Vera's lies!!!
HYPOCRITE!!!!!
VERA FAQ
~~~~~~~~~~~ What is Vera? ~~~~~~~~~~~
- A Trew Kristyun - A funnyMENTAList - A Grizian thug
These are characterised by one or more of the following: an extreme lack of rationality, fondness of logical fallacies, repeated use of emotional appeals, rigid adherence to Bronze Age mythology, endorsement of pseudoscientific nonsense, opposition to the First Amendment, bigotry and discriminatory attitudes towards minority groups, belief that certain children's media is the work of Satan, and propensity to post Bible verses instead of valid argument.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What's wrong with Vera? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vera appears to be as happy as if she were in her right mind.
Vera has the following unfortunate features:
- a distrust and fear of freedom - a belief in the importance of authority and in controlling what people believe - a corresponding preference for obedience rather than love - a desire to give people what they want rather than the truth - a refusal to allow herself to be in the least disconcerted when she is confronted with the true nature of her religion - a readiness to persecute and exclude anyone who is of a different persuasion.
Vera prefers authority, obedience, and conformity over freedom, truth, and dissent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is Vera part of the Griz cult? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes. Key Characteristics of the Griz cult are [adapted from Joanne Ruhland 1995]:
- Content Which Is Authoritarian - Indoctrinates / clones - Unquestioning obedience / Leaders do not discuss questions - Love and loyalty are the bottom line - Indoctrination /Leaders' conclusions must be accepted. - Emphasis on uniformity - Elitist / accepts SOME Christians - Hidden agenda - Manipulates - Leaders "lord" it over the flock - Results in conformity, rigidity - Allows one avenue of service ... serving their group - Individual is responsible to leaders - Leaders tell individual what God's will is - Analytical thinking hindered - Simplistic approach to life - Pick your own bible verse to lead you / Choices must conform to leaders' dictates, leaders' approval
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How does Vera forgive those who sin against her on ACC? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The bible says in Matthew 18:21-22 " Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
So if someone sins against Veras she makes sure she follow this verse exactly and keeps a ....
TREW KRISTYUN FORGIVEN SIN TALLY
70 times 7 minus 1 for today = 489 times left ...and counting.
That way Vera knows exactly when she can hit them with her steel encased KJV bible on the other cheek without sinning.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How does one translate from Trew Kristyun Veranese to Plain English? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are only political - You want to have rational, logical and intelligent discussions
You are a heretic - I don't agree with you
You are satan - I *really* don't agree with you
You support heretics - You are a friend to people on the fringe and show compassion and love
You invade the NG - You came here the same as I did but I assumed control before you came here and you aren't taking that away
This NG is not for discussion/debates - I fear being challenged by different views and opinions
I don't have a problem with English, you do - I cannot admit I may be wrong and I sometimes misunderstand people
This NG has guidelines - Regardless of the facts presented to me as to why this NG won't/can't/doesn't have guidelines I feel there must be some form of control over this group to stop mature discussion
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What is Vera's Webshite? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Too much Kristyun Lite and no Christian substance!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Who are Vera's beast friends? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obnoxious Abby (Juvenuile Jeanutter / Jeanette) Boring Belligerent Bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What is Vera's favourite bible verse? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark 17:666 (Trew Kristyun Version )
A new Trew Kristyun commandment I give unto you, That you luv one another as long as they are Trew Kristyuns ... hunt out the other heretical buggers in a Trew Kristyun Inquistion and burn them alive at the stake ... in Trew Kristyun luv.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How does Vera discern if people are Trew Kristyuns? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vera knows who are Trew Kristyuns by their plonk.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What are Vera's favourite websites? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in > > Greek the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-)
> > Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking > > and macho :-)?
> > If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical > > description of what Jesus looked like, physically.
> > Class: What's the other reference?
> Somebody climbs onto a ladder because he can see better from there onto someone > who is short...
> How stupid do you think your readers are, Mr. Croucher?
Dear Vera, It's quite possible that Zacchaeus climbed the tree to get a better view of Jesus because Jesus was short. I have done the same thing in my past. Well, I did not climb a tree to see Jesus but I have stood on the top of a small wall so I could get a better view of a car (I was at an outdoor auto show) that was driving by. If the object in question is shorter than the crowd that is in front of you, it makes perfect sense to climb higher to get a better view. Even tall people may have to climb on objects to view an object that is shorter than the crowd in front of them.
> You want to brainwash them. Like the serpent did with Eve and Adam in > paradise... Just take what God has said and twist it a little... Like you do all > the time...
If I recall the account of Adam & Eve in Genesis I think that the serpent deceived Eve and not brainwashed her. I do not know the history between yourself and Rowland. I think your words are a bit harsh concerning Rowland. All he did was point out some scripture that shows it is possible that Jesus was a short man. I know that in the eyes of men and women, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords should be a tall, extremely good looking Caucasian male. However, given the scriptural considerations it's possible that Jesus was anything but tall and extremely good looking. Granted, I'm not saying that Jesus was ugly because I don't believe anyone in this world is ugly.
> Rowland Croucher is trying to get people reading the Bible the way HE > wishes them to read it, concerning to his needs.
Since you make such a claim please provide some examples of how Rowland is doing this and details of how this serves the needs you perceive Rowland of having.
> He even suggested in > one of his articles on his website that Jesus was a homosexual.
Please show us where Vera. Also note, that Rowland's site encouraged mature thinking and that of the 13,000+ articles one can hardly agree with each and every single one.
> Do > you support this, too? Oh yes, read the Bible long enough, and you > will find out that Satan is the good one... (just kidding)
Vera thinks if you have anything in common with someone she deems as being a non-Christian then you are also a non-Christian. Guilty by association. (One can only imagine Vera's disgust if she saw Christ hanging out with unsavoury characters!)
> My history with RC is the following: He allowed slander against me on > his website without even knowing me.
Which was rectified.
> He came infiltrating the > newsgroup where I write and others.
How can someone inflitrate a public forum???
> I am trying to stop him > infiltrating other people's minds with his false ideas.
By name calling and making accusations? How is that going to achieve anything? How is that reflecting Christ?
> He pretends > to be a respectable Christian, but if you look behind it you will > find empty spaces only.
Thousands of clergy and laypeople disagree with Vera on this one.
> Yes, my word may sound rather harsh and they > are meant like this. Rowland Croucher is fully responsible of leading > people a false path.
Of courses Vera cannot show how Rowland has led a single person down a wrong path.... -- regards,
>An important thing I learned in first year Greek class: >Why was Z up a tree? >'Cos he was short >Who was short? >Z of course >No - the Bible doesn't say he was at all! >He was up a tree 'cos he wanted to see Jesus 'cos *he* was short: in Greek >the pronoun could just as easily apply to Jesus :-) >Does that blow your theory about Jesus being tall, Swedish-looking and macho >:-)?
I've never (well, never since I started to think for myself) thought of Jesus as being "Swedish-looking" or macho (that word didn't exist in my youth, but there were equivalents). I've always thought of him as looking much like the typical Arabs we see portraued on TV these days - browninh skin, beard, clothes like those worn by hippies who followed some guru, ...
And I can't say that I'd given much thought to his height.
>If all that's true (that Jesus was short) it's the *second* biblical >description of what Jesus looked like, physically. >Class: What's the other reference?
There you've got me. Please tell us and put me out of my misery!
-- Dr Ken Smith - Christian, husband, unpaid mathematician, skeptic, ... `God, we know you are in charge, but why don't you make it slightly more obvious?' Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 1990
