J.C. condemns the love child of the right..HOMOPHOBIA
peter terry
Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians reject
the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively isolating
the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their hatred
of anything homosexual.
Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
Are we to assume that Christians still: burn animals in sacrifice; that as a
standard punishment Christians have to eat the flesh of their sons and
daughters; that as a punishment for incest the victim and perpetrator have
to be put to death; that the guys accept that if their wives commit adultery
then she will be stoned to death; that if you have sex with the girlfriend,
then her mother, you and the girl have to be burnt to death; that if you
marry your half sister then you must be ostracised from the community; that
if you have sex with your wife during her period then you will be thrown out
of the community; that any man who consults the spirits of the dead must to
be stoned to death, (tell this to Catholics and others who pray to their
dead ancestors-saints.); slavery is acceptable?; that physical abuse against
women is acceptable?; that wizards are to be killed with rocks; that all
Christians are to marry virgins and not widows or divorcees; do Christian
guard the church doors every Sunday to ensure that dwarfs, men with flat
noses, damaged testicles or with 6 fingers do not pass in; that God will
destroy you if you try and mow your lawn on Sunday; do Christians still
stone to death, blasphemers.???????????????
Goodness me, these Roman Christians laws sound worse than the kinds of
Sharia law peddled by the Taliban!!
This is what Jesus Christ thinks:
** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
** Live by the sword and die by the sword.
** Forgive and you will be forgiven.
** "Most assuredly I tell you, in as much as you did it to one of the least
of these my brothers, you did it to ME."
** Blessed is the one who has suffered.
** Happy are those who are merciful towards others.
** Blessed are the peacemakers.
** Happy are those who are humble.
** The first will be last and the last first.
** Love your enemies and pray for those who abuse you.
** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as well.
** Love one another.
** Blessed are the meek.
** Blessed are the destitute.
** To save your life is to loose it, to loose your life is to save it.
** You have ears use them
** What you sow so shall you reap.
** Vengeance is MINE said the lord.
** Blessed is the peacemaker.
** Then the king will tell them on his right hand, "Come blessed of My
Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world; for I was hungry and you gave Me food to eat; I was thirsty and you
gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; naked and you clothed
Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." Then
the righteous will answer Him saying, " Lord, when did we see You hungry and
feed You, or thirsty and gave You a drink? When did we see You as a stranger
and take You in or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in
prison and come to You?" The King will answer them, " Most assuredly I tell
you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of My brothers, you did it
to me."
While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our genetic
disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human beings
entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus Christ
insists upon it.
PeterT
bob
"peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3d560...@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
> towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
repents and agrees with the commandments of
God. " Such were some of you ".
> similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians
reject
> the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively isolating
> the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their hatred
> of anything homosexual.
This is practically verging on the 'absurd' . Apparently this man is
totally ignorant that 'Christians' are not any part of the Mosaic
Covenant - that is a covenant made in blood - made at the base of
Mt. Sainai between "Jews" , their 'future descendents' and God If
this man had actually read the text he would have understood
that the NT demands that Christians are NOT under that
covenant. It's a rudimentary understanding.
> Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
>
> Are we to assume that Christians still: burn animals in sacrifice; that as
a
> standard punishment Christians have to eat the flesh of their sons and
<snipped due to basic ignorance of the knowledge that Christians
do NOT have to support the Mosaic Covenant >
> Goodness me, these Roman Christians laws sound worse than the kinds of
> Sharia law peddled by the Taliban!!
<snippity- snip for the same reason > how can any person who even
*claims* to have read the NT claim that Roman Christians were told
to follow the Mosaic Covenant .. down right embarrassing >
> This is what Jesus Christ thinks:
>
> ** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
> tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
Go to the dictionary - look up 'context'
> ** Live by the sword and die by the sword.
Try a little less simplistic thinking. Realize that Jesus praised Centurions
etc., and then try to understand how He could do that -and reconcile
that praise and the statement that he who "lives by the sword shall die
by the sword". Realize that God .. and even if you are an unbeliever
..Jesus in the culture of ancient Israel would never have argued that
war was always wrong or unholy . I mean come on man ..think!
Read the text of the Torah - God is not a quaker and Jesus would
not have ever contended that.
> ** Forgive and you will be forgiven.
True enough - But guess where those who rebel against God
wind up - h -e -double hockey sticks. Apparently your
21st century humanistic and false egalitarianistic notions are
mightily confused with the Concept of forgiveness and
accountability that God has actually espoused. Christians
do not *forgive* willful and wanton sin in the same sense
which you seem to be calling for - if you ever dain
to read the text you will find blatant sin was 'put out ' of the church.
Especially read where Paul turned over a congregant to 'satan'
for sexual sin... due to the 'apple barrel' effect among others.
> ** "Most assuredly I tell you, in as much as you did it to one of the
least
> of these my brothers, you did it to ME."
Once again, simplistic thinking wrapped in some puerile
self congradulatory nuances as if the poster has actually
merely stated a verse and the reader has recieved enlightenment.
READ THE TEXT ! Some are Children of darkness and
those rebellious ones are NOT the brethren of God but
the children of satan.. Try to comprehend what the text
actually says about a man who chooses NOT to repent.
> ** Blessed is the one who has suffered.
Very nice scripture - I like it - is this intended to show
that homosexuals are the suffering messiahs of America ?
Try harder.
> ** Happy are those who are merciful towards others.
Wonderful and true. Are you saying that mercy is denying
the Cross of Jesus Christ and telling men it is perfectly
fine to engage in abominably grotesque sexual practices
and they need not worry about repenting ? Do you
really expect thinking people to buy this exegetical tripe ?
> ** Blessed are the peacemakers.
<snipping the rest of this late 20th century humanistic
psycho babble>
>
> ** Then the king will tell them on his right hand, "Come blessed of My
> Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
> world; for I was hungry and you gave Me food to eat; I was thirsty and you
> gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; naked and you clothed
> Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."
Then
> the righteous will answer Him saying, " Lord, when did we see You hungry
and
> feed You, or thirsty and gave You a drink? When did we see You as a
stranger
> and take You in or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in
> prison and come to You?" The King will answer them, " Most assuredly I
tell
> you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of My brothers, you did it
> to me."
If you understood the First 2/3 's of this post you can simply supply my
response to the above . While the above is certainly true you seem to be
totally ignorant of Jesus's dealing with these issues in the text. Jesus is
never anti-Torah . In fact He cautions His listeners to do EXACTLY
EVERYTHING that the Pharisees say - because they sit in MOSES
SEAT - i.e., they speak words of Torah .. and EVERY WORD
of that Torah that they speak is to be obeyed because it is from God!
And much of that law concerns homosexuality and the penalty for
that was DEATH and you seem to have this picture of Jesus
accusing the Father of homophobia ..ridiculous ! Did Jesus do and
show much mercy as a type of the forgiveness that would be
made available after His ressurection . .yep ! .. does the 'new
covenant' offer much forgiveness BASED UPON the presupposition
of Repentence - yep ! Does Old or New testament agree in any
manner or form with your Richard Simmons theology ? Spare me :)
> While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our
genetic
> disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human
beings
> entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus
Christ
> insists upon it.
Now this statement is certainly true. Are you a homosexual ? It
doesnt really matter to me ..just curious . Respect and dignity though
- have absolutely nothing to do with denying the necessity of complete
and total repentence and regeneration of the homosexual person . It is
my understanding that you are absolutely in denial of the cross of Jesus
and in total unbelief of it's saving power . So for you to argue points
based on your simplistic and purposeful misinterpretation of the
biblical text seems exceedingly to beg the question . :) bob.
p.s. I don't have time to edumacate you on the relationship of
the OT levitical commands and 'similar' commands repeated in the
NT .. i.e., not wearing mixed cloth or plowing with mismatched
animals and the representation of 'purity' in the old testament
and that same purity commanded in the NT - but NOT
commanded via levitical injunctions. bob .
>
>
>
Christian Graus
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
>towards homosexuals.
Two problems. 1 - Christians should not hate homosexuals. 2 - I
agree with the Bible that there is no homosexuality in the church,
just as there is no fornication. I would not use Leviticus to support
my view, nor would I need to.
>This is what Jesus Christ thinks:
>
>** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
>tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
There is a one liner here, but I'm not going to take it.
I don't see anywhere in all this that Jesus said to lower the
standards of the church. Jesus advice to the woman caught in adultery
was to 'go and sin no more'. That is also my advice to any person
wanting to become a Christian, gay or otherwise.
>While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our genetic
>disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human beings
>entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus Christ
>insists upon it.
I agree totally. It is all to easy for 'churches' to make excuses for
sins they can understand the biological urge to commit, but carry on
as if God hates all homosexuals specifically and especially. Fred
Nile is an example of this. The Bible is clear - no homosexuality in
the church. It is also clear on a lot of other things, heterosexual
sin ( sex outside of marriage ) is condemned far more often than
homosexuality and is equally unacceptable in the church. The problem
is on the one side you have Ninure et. al. preaching freedom to sin
and rejection of the Bible, on the other you have idiots like Fred
Nile who find strength in attacking others, and self righteousness.
Both are wrong in the eyes of God. The Gospel of power and the Holy
Spirit is free to any human being, ALL have sinned and fall short of
God's glory and all are offered a new birth and deliverance from those
things that separate them from God.
Christian
Christian Graus
wrote:
>Wonderful and true. Are you saying that mercy is denying
>the Cross of Jesus Christ and telling men it is perfectly
>fine to engage in abominably grotesque sexual practices
>and they need not worry about repenting ? Do you
>really expect thinking people to buy this exegetical tripe ?
I don't think your opinion of what is grotesque is relevant here. I'm
not keen on the whole idea of using the tradesmans entrance, but
marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled, if a male and female, who
are married, wanted to do such things they would not be condemned
before God, regardless of your opinion. By talking like this you
personalise and judge the situation instead of simply presenting God's
judgement.
Christian
Steven Davis
YOU GO BOB!
http://www.upci.org/doctrine/60_questions.asp
Respectfully, Steve Davis
-- "Been Baptized in Jesus Name?" --
Col. 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under
heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Caillean McMahon
bob wrote:
>
<snip of a lot of stuff where bob says that Christians are not bound by
Mosaic covenant, so his objections to gays must come from St Paul; he
also then says that they are;
he repeatedly describes homosexual acts as repugnant,, so here is my
response)
Robert;
To a gay or Lesbia, the idea of intercourse in the sense that you
concieve of it is oft equally repugnant. What constitutes social
repugnance seems to be basically the will of the mob.
Further, the Catholics are far more benign to us than you, sh why are
you here?
Blessings;
Caillean `aSiobhan, Lady Carrigaholt
Agamemnon
wrote:
>
>Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
>towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
>similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians reject
>the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively isolating
>the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their hatred
>of anything homosexual.
>
>Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
>
Leviticus has nothing to do with Christianity. It is part of the Jewish
religion. Argue it out with them. Or better still why don't you form your
own relgion, then you wont have anything to wory about.
The reason why gays are not accepted in society is NOT because they are gay
but because they are nepotistic, ie. they exchange sexual favours in return
for economic advancement. Clearly heterosexuals who cannot offer favours
would be discriminated against in a gay society just like Christians and
Muslims are discriminated against in Israel because everything happens
behind closed doors.
Mark Tindall
>I
>agree with the Bible that there is no homosexuality in the church,
>just as there is no fornication.
Mmmm ... tell THAT to Jimmy Swaggart and co!
>>** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as well.
Can I have your coat. if no-one else on this NG has asked for it yet? When
can I pick up your coat and your cloak?
>is on the one side you have Ninure et. al. preaching freedom to sin
>and rejection of the Bible
English comprehension still required. Ninure has never said that.
Mark
Pastor Frank
genetic
> disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human
beings
> entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus
Christ
> insists upon it.
>
be redeemed and there is great joy in heaven when one of them comes to
repentance.
--
Pastor Frank
Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one
sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which
need no repentance.
Steven Davis
> Not just homosexuals, but all sinners are to be respected, for they can
> be redeemed and there is great joy in heaven when one of them comes to
> repentance.
> --
> Pastor Frank
As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate the
sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
The Boog-man Seven7s
> towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
> similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians reject
> the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively isolating
> the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their hatred
> of anything homosexual.
>
> Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
>
> Are we to assume that Christians still: burn animals in sacrifice; that as a
> standard punishment Christians have to eat the flesh of their sons and
> daughters; that as a punishment for incest the victim and perpetrator have
> to be put to death; that the guys accept that if their wives commit adultery
> then she will be stoned to death; that if you have sex with the girlfriend,
> then her mother, you and the girl have to be burnt to death; that if you
> marry your half sister then you must be ostracised from the community; that
> if you have sex with your wife during her period then you will be thrown out
> of the community; that any man who consults the spirits of the dead must to
> be stoned to death, (tell this to Catholics and others who pray to their
> dead ancestors-saints.); slavery is acceptable?; that physical abuse against
> women is acceptable?; that wizards are to be killed with rocks; that all
> Christians are to marry virgins and not widows or divorcees; do Christian
> guard the church doors every Sunday to ensure that dwarfs, men with flat
> noses, damaged testicles or with 6 fingers do not pass in; that God will
> destroy you if you try and mow your lawn on Sunday; do Christians still
> stone to death, blasphemers.???????????????
Absolute hatred is a bit terse to apply to the Christian population as
a whole, and should not be done so, but rather on an individual basis.
My comment about the above statements is this: do not focus upon the
punishments; those have been done away with. My question is, are the
acts that those punishments were meant to provide justice for STILL
SINS?
The answer here is yes. They ARE. We have not "thrown away" what sin
still is. The consequences of it have been changed.
> Goodness me, these Roman Christians laws sound worse than the kinds of
> Sharia law peddled by the Taliban!!
Sounds worse, but they are NOT A) Christian laws and B) Used as
punishment since Christ's work on the cross.
> While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our genetic
> disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human beings
> entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus Christ
> insists upon it.
In a sense, you are right here. Homosexuality is a sin alongside the
likes of lying, coveting, murder, stealing, gossipping, and the like.
We are called to Love, no matter what the conditions of a person's
heart is - these are the people that Jesus ate with and received
condemnation from the Pharisees for. However, there is nothing that
removes these actions from being sins - there is nothing in the Bible
that condones ANY of them.
The Boog-man Seven7s
> PeterT
Jesse Nowells
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Pastor Frank wrote:
> Not just homosexuals, but all sinners are to be respected, for they can
> be redeemed and there is great joy in heaven when one of them comes to
> repentance.
Homosexuals do not need to be redeemed for practicing homosexuality.
Nobody has offered any rational argument as to why sex between any
consenting persons is in itself necessarily wrong. Only peculiar
groundless faith-based illusions claim it is so.
Jesse Nowells
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Steven Davis wrote:
> As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate the
> sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
You mean like bearing false witness against gay people & their sex lives?
Steven Davis
False witness? How so?
Me
Its got nothing to do with whether a book is too old for our times or not,
its got to do with Right and wrong. Would we kick out the Ten commandment if
we deem that Murder, lieng stealing Etc it wrong socially. The problem with
mans idea of what is right and wrong, is that his heart is deceiptfull and
desperatly wicked, and anything that man tries to justify will be wicked to
begin with. God Hates the Act of Homosexuality, just as Much as He hates the
Act of Murder, or the Act of Adultry or The act of Lieing.
Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and
whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their
part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second
death.
(KJV)
Rom 1:26-27
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned
in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is
unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which
was meet.
(KJV)
1 Cor 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be
not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(KJV)
II Ki 23:7
7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of
the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
(KJV)
SODOMITE
SOD'OMITE (Heb. qadesh, "consecrated, devoted"). The sodomites were not
inhabitants of Sodom, or their descendants, but men consecrated to the
unnatural vice of Sodom (cf. <Gen. 19:4-5; Rom. 1:27>) as a religious rite.
This dreadful "consecration," or rather desecration, was spread in different
forms over Phoenicia, Syria, Phrygia, Assyria, and Babylonia. Ashtaroth, the
Greek Astarte, was its chief object. The term was especially applied to the
priests of Cybele, called Galli, perhaps from the river Gallus in Bithynia,
which was said to make those who drank it mad. In <Deut. 23:17> the
toleration of a sodomite ("cult prostitute," NASB; "shrine prostitute," NIV)
was expressly forbidden, and the pay received by a sodomite was not to be
put into the Temple treasury (v. 18). "The wages of a dog" is a figurative
expression used to denote the gains of a qadesh (sodomite), who was called
kinaidos by the Greeks, because of the doglike manner in which he debased
himself (see <Rev. 22:15>, where the unclean are called "dogs").
(from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
(originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (C)
1988.)
Robert
duke32
wrote:
>Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
>those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
>to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
>clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
>welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
>repents and agrees with the commandments of
>God.
Bob, that's totally over his head.
He's so confused that no matter what one tells him, he has no concept
of the mistakes he's just made.
duke
*****
One day every tongue
Will confess You are God.
One day every knee will bow.
Still the greatest treasure remains
For those who gladly choose you now.
*****
Phar-Lap
<namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our genetic
> disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human beings
> entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus Christ
> insists upon it.
>
And so must we
Good on you!
Homophobia is a real perversion and I find it sickening when these
compulsive masturbators try to justify their behaviour with scripture of
any religion
Phar-Lap
<now...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> "peter terry" <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3d560...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> >
> > Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
> > towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
>
> Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
> to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
> clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
> welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
> repents and agrees with the commandments of
> God. " Such were some of you ".
You just don't get it do you
These people have nothing to repent of - that is a homophobic suggestion per se.
They don't tell you where to dip your wick so why do you think it is your
business where they dip theirs
Like I say, personally I prefer blonde females, but I guess that is just
how God made me
++++++++
Phar-Lap
Seve...@yahoo.com (The Boog-man Seven7s) wrote:
> In a sense, you are right here. Homosexuality is a sin alongside the
> likes of lying, coveting, murder, stealing, gossipping, and the like.
> We are called to Love, no matter what the conditions of a person's
> heart is - these are the people that Jesus ate with and received
> condemnation from the Pharisees for. However, there is nothing that
> removes these actions from being sins - there is nothing in the Bible
> that condones ANY of them.
>
What about compulsive masturbation with a homophobic bent?
Now that seems a sin to me
Phar-Lap
> Hi,
> Its got nothing to do with whether a book is too old for our times or not,
> its got to do with Right and wrong. Would we kick out the Ten commandment if
> we deem that Murder, lieng stealing Etc it wrong socially. The problem with
> mans idea of what is right and wrong, is that his heart is deceiptfull and
> desperatly wicked, and anything that man tries to justify will be wicked to
> begin with. God Hates the Act of Homosexuality, just as Much as He hates the
> Act of Murder, or the Act of Adultry or The act of Lieing.
>
Oh rack off - God couldn't give a stuff
Your mistake is to see the Bible as an inerrant revelation instead of
being the record of the development of Judaic and christian theology, In
your homophobia you are actually imposing a particularly closed and
Conservative attitude to scripture. The homophobia merely acts as a
vehicle for this outdated and inaccurate subjective view
Growth in understanding of God did not end with the Resurrection it
continued as man's consciousness developed. We can actually see that
process taking place when the NT is read in chronological order
The sexual taboos have for a large part had their day
This is a very silly subject
+++++++++++++++++++
Phar-Lap
<duk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:09:36 -0700, "bob" <now...@speakeasy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> >those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
> >to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
> >clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
> >welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
> >repents and agrees with the commandments of
> >God.
>
> Bob, that's totally over his head.
>
> He's so confused that no matter what one tells him, he has no concept
> of the mistakes he's just made.
>
>
Then let us make it easy for him:
"33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me:
and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to
you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have
loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love
one to another."
(Jesus of Nazareth in John)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesse Nowells
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Steven Davis wrote:
> >> As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate the
> >> sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
> > You mean like bearing false witness against gay people & their sex lives?
> False witness? How so?
Your implicit claim that there is something intrinsically wrong with
homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that on
is supersitition & willful ignorance.
peter terry
"bob" <now...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
>
>Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
>those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had >bothered to
read the text he would have had a clue that the >text is quite clear that
repentant and regenerated homosexuals >are as welcome in the Christian
Church as any other person >who repents and agrees with the commandments of
God. " >Such were some of you ".
>
consistently attacks and degrades homosexuals for no other reason than cheap
points. Your obsessions and fears are so substantial that one could easily
get away with describing you as a classic Nazi freak whose sense of racism
and hatred of minorities further degrades the name of Christ.
This nonsense your now peddling of the forgiveness of homosexuals is in no
way supported by yours and many others attitudes to these peoples. What
happened to you baaab, did you watch your mother as a child being analed by
the next door neighbour?
A Mosiac Covenant you spew forth...what a load of unsupported crap.
<snipped baab's, the smiling chiwawas verbiage which has resulted from
intense brainwashing by the fairies and wizards from the bottom of the
garden.>
You are fair game pagan boy!
PeterT
peter terry
"duke32" <duk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aujdlu4994sampffv...@4ax.com...
>
> >Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> >those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
> >to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
> >clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
> >welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
> >repents and agrees with the commandments of
> >God.
>
> Bob, that's totally over his head.
>
belligerence. We will demonise homosexuals at every opportunity but when
confronted we can always back down by saying we actually love and respect
them. Amazing isn't it, given that so many priests, bishops and popes have
been practicing homosexuals.
I love JP's explanation that homosexuality contravenes a naturally created
order of things.While I tend to agree in principal, the demented pope is non
more than a hypocrite given that sexual abstinence also contravenes God's
biological creation principals.
I mean really, fancy this from one who thinks Jesus resides in a cracker
biscuit which must be consumed to save your arse.
<Shakes his head in disbelief and wonders what the 'blood cult' will come up
with next.>
PeterT
peter terry
"Jesse Nowells" <jnow...@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0208111549140.63131-100000@localhost...
will always find issues and then look to justify them by moulding Scripture
into a form that best supports what is essentially perpetuated hatred.
The Roman Churches rose out of the ashes of the old pagan Roman Empire on
the back of mass murder, hatred of minorities and the practices of the
occult.
PeterT
peter terry
" Phar-Lap" <grandn...@aintree.com> wrote in message
news:grandnational-1...@ppp90.dyn10.pacific.net.au...
Steven Davis
> What do you expect from homophobics. Religious bigots like davis and baab
> will always find issues and then look to justify them by moulding Scripture
> into a form that best supports what is essentially perpetuated hatred.
>
> The Roman Churches rose out of the ashes of the old pagan Roman Empire on
> the back of mass murder, hatred of minorities and the practices of the
> occult.
>
> PeterT
Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
God might have to say? Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what about
the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
lifestyle.
Christian Graus
> Christian Graus wrote:
>
> >I
> >agree with the Bible that there is no homosexuality in the church,
> >just as there is no fornication.
>
> Mmmm ... tell THAT to Jimmy Swaggart and co!
>
I made no claims on behalf of every person who ever claimed to be a
Christian.
>
> >>** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as well.
>
>
> Can I have your coat. if no-one else on this NG has asked for it yet? When
> can I pick up your coat and your cloak?
>
Come on over to Tasmania and get it, you're welcome. I'd also be
happy to spend some time praying with you, in the hope you might find
a point in your life were God becomes more than a joke to you, and you
can start to live like a Christian.
>
> >is on the one side you have Ninure et. al. preaching freedom to sin
> >and rejection of the Bible
>
> English comprehension still required. Ninure has never said that.
Naturally, she words it differently, as do you.
Christian
Pastor Frank
essential for the survival of civilization. Every society in the past which
practiced sexual licentiousness perished in short order. The disease
pressure alone is sufficient to decimate a society, let alone the lack of
discipline of our youth and their hedonistic orientation. By mid teen, they
have seen it all, done it all and are bored stiff, ready to commit suicide.
Jesus is the rock, the corner stone. He will give structure and purpose
to your life.
--
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the
truth.
D.Castles
peter terry wrote:
> Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute hatred
> towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
> similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians reject
> the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively isolating
> the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their hatred
> of anything homosexual.
>
> Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
>
> Are we to assume that Christians still: burn animals in sacrifice; that as a
> standard punishment Christians have to eat the flesh of their sons and
> daughters; that as a punishment for incest the victim and perpetrator have
> to be put to death; that the guys accept that if their wives commit adultery
> then she will be stoned to death; that if you have sex with the girlfriend,
> then her mother, you and the girl have to be burnt to death; that if you
> marry your half sister then you must be ostracised from the community; that
> if you have sex with your wife during her period then you will be thrown out
> of the community; that any man who consults the spirits of the dead must to
> be stoned to death, (tell this to Catholics and others who pray to their
> dead ancestors-saints.); slavery is acceptable?; that physical abuse against
> women is acceptable?; that wizards are to be killed with rocks; that all
> Christians are to marry virgins and not widows or divorcees; do Christian
> guard the church doors every Sunday to ensure that dwarfs, men with flat
> noses, damaged testicles or with 6 fingers do not pass in; that God will
> destroy you if you try and mow your lawn on Sunday; do Christians still
> stone to death, blasphemers.???????????????
>
> Goodness me, these Roman Christians laws sound worse than the kinds of
> Sharia law peddled by the Taliban!!
>
> This is what Jesus Christ thinks:
>
> ** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
> tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
A Pagan belief that was widespead throughout the meditteranean. A platitude
taught by many belief systems
>
>
> ** Live by the sword and die by the sword.
A common saying that is completely misinterpreted by Gospel reading Christians.
This was Jesus call to uprising to his armed disciples. Not a call to peace. He
was telling Rome that if they rule by the sword then they shall die by it.
>
>
> ** Forgive and you will be forgiven.
A common saying of the times.
>
>
> ** "Most assuredly I tell you, in as much as you did it to one of the least
> of these my brothers, you did it to ME."
No explanation for this one....maybe Jesus actually said it
>
>
> ** Blessed is the one who has suffered.\
Gnostic thought
>
>
> ** Happy are those who are merciful towards others.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Blessed are the peacemakers.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Happy are those who are humble.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** The first will be last and the last first.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Love your enemies and pray for those who abuse you.
See above
>
>
> ** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as well.
No other explanation for this one
>
>
> ** Love one another.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Blessed are the meek.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Blessed are the destitute.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** To save your life is to loose it, to loose your life is to save it.
I think you mean lose not loose.........no further comment
>
>
> ** You have ears use them
Obvious platitude
>
>
> ** What you sow so shall you reap.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Vengeance is MINE said the lord.
Jewish
>
>
> ** Blessed is the peacemaker.
Gnostic
>
>
> ** Then the king will tell them on his right hand, "Come blessed of My
> Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
> world; for I was hungry and you gave Me food to eat; I was thirsty and you
> gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; naked and you clothed
> Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." Then
> the righteous will answer Him saying, " Lord, when did we see You hungry and
> feed You, or thirsty and gave You a drink? When did we see You as a stranger
> and take You in or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in
> prison and come to You?" The King will answer them, " Most assuredly I tell
> you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of My brothers, you did it
> to me."
>
> While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our genetic
> disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human beings
> entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus Christ
> insists upon it.
You maybe correct, but you are having trouble even characterising Jesus' belief
system let alone extrapolating to what he would have thought of homosexuality.
My opinion (without much evidence) is that Jesus, as a Jew, would simply have
taken for granted that homosexuality was a sin against the Jewish god along with
other unacceptable behaviour. This would have been the kind of deviate thing a
Greek or Roman did, not a good Jew.
Either Jesus was a Jew or he wasn't. If he wasn't then you may have a good case
for what you say. If he was, well...............Hmmmmm.
I tend to suspect that Jesus was probably not a Jew therefore his attitude to
homosexuality remains unknown.
Dave
>
>
> PeterT
Mark Tindall
>what about the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread >because of
their perverse lifestyle.
My brother was Dr Brett Tindall who earnt his doctorate in HIV research with
the Sydney Aids Team. He was also Australia's delegate for W.H.O and spoke
internationally on AIDS before dying from AIDS related illness in 1994.
As one who has been a Christian for over 30 years I tell you plainly that
what you are saying is garbage! AIDS does not discriminate between sexual
preferences or age groups or nationality. You're not interested in what God
might have to say because Godf speaks truth. You reap what you sow.
Homophobic 'Trew Kristyuns' do not show God's love to the gay and lesbian
community. Homosexulaity is no more a choice than heterosexuality is.
>And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord >Jesus
....
...obviously doesn't apply to homophic fundies! I was held down and
assaulted by a group of pentes for daring to defend my gay brother.
Mark Tindall
aus.religion.christian
Mark Tindall
>You need to get yourself educated.. The catholic pope is responsible
>for spreading more aids in Africa than any other singular factor by his
>insistence that people in Africa don't protect themselves with a >condom.
Absolutely true!
Mark Tindall
aus.religion.christian
Mark Tindall
>> >I
>> >agree with the Bible that there is no homosexuality in the church,
>> >just as there is no fornication.
>> Mmmm ... tell THAT to Jimmy Swaggart and co!
>I made no claims on behalf of every person who ever claimed to be a
>Christian.
English comprehension required .... ' there is NO fornication in the church'
... but there IS fornication in the church!~
>> >>** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as
>>>>well.
>> Can I have your coat. if no-one else on this NG has asked for it >>yet?
When can I pick up your coat and your cloak?
>Come on over to Tasmania and get it, you're welcome.
Good! Expect me any time in the next 50 years.
Mark
David K. Lambert
still sinning. Does wanting to see someone saved mean that you hate them. I
think it means exactly the opposite. I do not claim to speak for anyone but
myself, maybe someone out there does hate practicing homosexuals. It's not
me and not most Christians that I personally know.
David L.
"Jesse Nowells" <jnow...@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0208111549140.63131-100000@localhost...
Christian Graus
>
> Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
> God might have to say?
I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
in discussing the Bible.
> Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
> persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what about
> the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
> lifestyle.
Steve, you've got issues. In what way is a gay person more perverse
than a prostitute, or a man and woman living together but not married,
or the Pope ? All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
Christian
Christian Graus
There is nothing wrong with being gay at all. If you're gay, I don't
have a problem with it. Just make sure that you don't claim that it's
possible for a CHRISTIAN to be gay.
Christian
386sx
> Jesse Nowells wrote:
>
>> Your implicit claim that there is something intrinsically wrong with
>> homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that
>> on is supersitition & willful ignorance.
>
> There is nothing wrong with being gay at all.
I see you must not be a Christian. :-) I'm not aware of many Christians
who would say "there is nothing wrong with being gay," except maybe for
the gay Christians. I would think most Christians might say something
like "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and you're all going
to rot in hell forever in eternal suffering and pain and wailing and
gnashing of teeth just like you all deserve, because God loves you. God
is love."
> If you're gay, I don't have a problem with it. Just make sure that you
> don't claim that it's possible for a CHRISTIAN to be gay.
Oh my, heavens no! Who would dare speak such nonesense! (Except maybe
for the gay Christians, of course.) I think Jesse's comment is a bit
closer to the mark though.
--
386
If God could make angels, why did he bother with men? -- John Ings
Caillean McMahon
M
>
> SOD'OMITE (Heb. qadesh, "consecrated, devoted"). The sodomites were not
> inhabitants of Sodom, or their descendants, but men consecrated to the
> unnatural vice of Sodom (cf. <Gen. 19:4-5; Rom. 1:27>) as a religious rite.
> This dreadful "consecration," or rather desecration, was spread in different
> forms over Phoenicia, Syria, Phrygia, Assyria, and Babylonia. Ashtaroth, the
> Greek Astarte, was its chief object. The term was especially applied to the
> priests of Cybele, called Galli, perhaps from the river Gallus in Bithynia,
> which was said to make those who drank it mad.
The Gallae were primarily Lesbian or transsexual. They were from Phrygia
near what was Troy and came to Rome by invitation about 200 yrs BCE.
They occupied the Vatican Hill.
The religion they practiced was a continuation of the worship of
Innana.Probably the major objection to the worship of Cybele is that it
had men in a minor role. This would have certainly not sat well withy
Judaic based beliefs.
At least get your history right.
Blessings;
Caillean `aSiobhan, Lady Carrigaholt
Ninure Saunders
-8/11/02 9:17 PM peter terry wrote:
-
-> What do you expect from homophobics. Religious bigots like davis and baab
-> will always find issues and then look to justify them by moulding Scripture
-> into a form that best supports what is essentially perpetuated hatred.
->
-> The Roman Churches rose out of the ashes of the old pagan Roman Empire on
-> the back of mass murder, hatred of minorities and the practices of the
-> occult.
->
-> PeterT
-
-
-Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
-God might have to say? Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
-persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what about
-the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
-lifestyle.
-
-\
What about AIDS?
Wgar do you actually know about AIDS?
Do you know that Lesbians (fenale homosexuals) rarely get AUDS, that in
fact heterosexual women get AIDS at rates mant times that of Lesbians? By
your own reasoning then, God's chosens must be Lesbians?
Did you know that Worldwide, AIDS affects primarily HETEROSEXUALS?
And if a AIDS is "repeaing what you sow". who was God punishing with the
Black Death that wiped out half of Europe?
What were all the children who used to get polio repeaping?
Who was God mad at when the Spamish Flu killed 20 milluion in the second
decade of the 20th century?
For what reason does God send Breast cancer to women, what are they repeaing?
The babues who die from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome?
Did the six million Jews, and the 9 Million others killed in the Nazi
Death camps also "reeap what they sowed"?
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://www.geocities.com/ninure
The world's second most subversive document
http://www.geocities.com/ninure/declaration.html
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.ufmcc.com
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
Ninure Saunders
The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever" All
of God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men
and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and
persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful
needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the
love we share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers.
Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are
denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find
ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator.
This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of
our human relationships.
Not a Sin, Not a Sickness
For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that
women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of
discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say
that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their
interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a
century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in
the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness
Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical
profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the
idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."
The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical
and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn
loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and
lesbians should he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and
homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!
About the Bible
The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand
years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and
Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many
literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These
are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its
context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian
denominations, all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led
some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians
at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.
Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such
an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over
slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian
denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery
today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!
New Information Refutes Old ideas
What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are
perhaps the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible
and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation
did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches,
including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by
God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith.
Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is
of great significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible
says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those
matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read
into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of
homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous
assumptions and conclusions.
GENESIS 19:1-25
W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.
Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
case of attempted gang rape.
Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot
attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the
angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of
Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then
rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.
Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities
for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the
population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters
suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if
the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits
incest with his daughters! Most importantly, why do all the other passages
of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of
homosexuality?
What was the Sin of Sodom?
Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people
today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs
of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry
plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create
false gods or treat others with injustice.
LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13
C hristians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in
Leviticus. But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness"
while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture
distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message.
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus,
a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully
appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew
people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to
avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion,
characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension
with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the
multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured
female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17,
repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male
cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of
the Bible.
What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found
detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew
words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is
usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous
times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the
Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah
regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any
conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible
homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament
were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and
culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no
longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not
in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and
peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus
Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love,
justice, mercy and faith.
ROMANS 1:24-27
Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on
same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the
subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts
occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the
need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual
behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous
Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain
homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish
and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the
infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman
emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church
regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15
and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned
male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.
What is "Natural"?
Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text-
for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
"unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but
rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we
should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today
with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
lifestyle.
Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference
to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is
unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women
adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the
repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a
meaning may be possible.
The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted
in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such
acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
relationships seen today.
I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10
Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.
In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and
"abusers of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James
version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these
words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has
been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who
lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New
Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word,
arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere
else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek
words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual
intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual
behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6
shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible
he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to
translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise
meaning is uncertain.
No Law Against Love
The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality,
especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any
arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to
great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not
judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ...
against such there is no law.
One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the
whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."'
----------------------------------------------
OTHER INSIGHTS
"The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."
Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."
Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament
Perkins School of Theology, Dallas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26,
where this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English
translation for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be
justified concerning what Paul meant by the phrase. It could refer to the
individual pagan, who goes beyond his own sexual appetites in order to
indulge in new sexual pleasures. The second possibility is that physis
refers to the 'nature' of the chosen people who were forbidden by
Levitical law to have homosexual relations."
John J. McNeill, Adjunct Professor of Psychology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A close reading of Paul's discussion of homosexual acts in Romans 1 does
not support the common modern interpretation of the passage. Paul did not
deny the existence of a distinction between clean and unclean and even
assumed that Jewish Christians would continue to observe the purity code.
He refrained, however, from identifying physical impurity with sin or
demanding that Gentiles adhere to that code."
L. William Countryman, Professor of New Testament
Church Divinity School of the Pacific, Berkeley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Hebrew word 'toevah,' here translated 'abomination,' does not usually
signify something intrinsically evil, like rape or theft (discussed
elsewhere in Leviticus), but something which is ritually unclean for Jews,
like eating pork or engaging in intercourse during menstruation, both of
which are prohibited in these same chapters."
John Boswell, Professor of History
Yale University, New Haven
----------------------------------------------
Pastor Frank
> Steven Davis wrote:
> >
> >what about the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread >because of
> their perverse lifestyle.
>
> My brother was Dr Brett Tindall who earnt his doctorate in HIV research
with
> the Sydney Aids Team. He was also Australia's delegate for W.H.O and
spoke
> internationally on AIDS before dying from AIDS related illness in 1994.
> As one who has been a Christian for over 30 years I tell you plainly that
> what you are saying is garbage! AIDS does not discriminate between sexual
> preferences or age groups or nationality. You're not interested in what
God
> might have to say because Godf speaks truth. You reap what you sow.
> Homophobic 'Trew Kristyuns' do not show God's love to the gay and lesbian
> community. Homosexulaity is no more a choice than heterosexuality is.
>
woman, his legally married wife ONLY, then this whole problem of STDs would
virtually disappear.
Naturally those who worship their crotch and are addicted to its
pleasures, would rather die of AIDS than abstain till they find a suitable
companion of the opposite sex for life.
We love sinners for they can be cured and converted to the glory of God,
but we hate the sin which enslaves them.
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from
henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the
words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else
believe me for the very works' sake.
Pastor Frank
> > homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that on
> > is supersitition & willful ignorance.
>
> What do you expect from homophobics. Religious bigots like davis and baab
> will always find issues and then look to justify them by moulding
Scripture
> into a form that best supports what is essentially perpetuated hatred.
> The Roman Churches rose out of the ashes of the old pagan Roman Empire on
> the back of mass murder, hatred of minorities and the practices of the
> occult.
> PeterT
>
glory of God. Yours however is a hateful and intolerant reiteration of
atheist clap-trap from a heterophobe.
Yet even you can be saved. For Jesus came for the lost, not the good
people.
Pastor Frank
expression as you fight for homosexual expression.
Furthermore, Jesus is no "superstition" nor is His prescription for a
successful life "willful ignorance". The fact, that you call it that,
testifies of your own "willfull ignorance".
Learn to know Jesus and try to understand what he says, for in Him you
will find life eternal.
Pastor Frank
news:6a31ce6d.02081...@posting.google.com...
be aware, that being gay is not the sin. Acting on it is the sin. "Ye shall
know them by their actions / fruits".
Pastor Frank
news:grandnational-1...@ppp90.dyn10.pacific.net.au...
> In article <3d560...@news.iprimus.com.au>, "peter terry"
> <namb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
genetic
> > disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human
beings
> > entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus
Christ
> > insists upon it.
>
> Good on you!
> Homophobia is a real perversion and I find it sickening when these
> compulsive masturbators try to justify their behaviour with scripture of
> any religion
>
love and grace of God. But we must hate the sin which enslaves him, for sin
is of the devil.
Therefore, we love the sinner but hate sin.
Pastor Frank
news:grandnational-1...@ppp90.dyn10.pacific.net.au...
> > >
> > > Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute
hatred
> > > towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus
and
> >
> > those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
> > to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
> > clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
> > welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
> > repents and agrees with the commandments of
>
> These people have nothing to repent of - that is a homophobic suggestion
per se.
> They don't tell you where to dip your wick so why do you think it is your
> business where they dip theirs
>
Most religious prohibitions have good reasons behind them. The
prohibition of pork as being "unclean" is most probably related to
trichinosis. The prohibition on random and gratuitous sex is probably to
prevent STDs etc. The safest and socially most beneficial sexual activity is
between one man and one woman, his legal wife.
Sometimes I think, those advocating activities which are socially
deleterious should bear the cost of them. Are you ready to pay for the
treatment of destitute STD victims? I'm sure if that were to happen, by far
the most who now advocate licentiousness would change their tune in a hurry
and advocate abstention instead. LOL
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Pastor Frank
> wrote:
>
> >Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> >those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had bothered
> >to read the text he would have had a clue that the text is quite
> >clear that repentant and regenerated homosexuals are as
> >welcome in the Christian Church as any other person who
> >repents and agrees with the commandments of
> >God.
>
> of the mistakes he's just made.
>
Are you muttering to yourself? Looks like somebody just ran out of
contrarian arguments. LOL Find Christ in you, for He has a purpose for your
life which will enhance the quality of our civilization and advance the
Kingdom of Heaven, then ask Him.
Pastor Frank
that you are in fact lying, because you hate anyone disapproving of your
actions.
The facts are, that homosexuality is only a tiny portion of sexual
deviancy the Bible considers sin. I.e. adultery is regarded much more
seriously and so is sexual abuse of children, for it betrays trust.
Christians are to love the sinner but hate the sin which enslaves him.
Pastor Frank
news:grandnational-1...@ppp90.dyn10.pacific.net.au...
> >
> > Hi,
> > Its got nothing to do with whether a book is too old for our times or
not,
> > its got to do with Right and wrong. Would we kick out the Ten
commandment if
> > we deem that Murder, lieng stealing Etc it wrong socially. The problem
with
> > mans idea of what is right and wrong, is that his heart is deceiptfull
and
> > desperatly wicked, and anything that man tries to justify will be wicked
to
> > begin with. God Hates the Act of Homosexuality, just as Much as He hates
the
> > Act of Murder, or the Act of Adultry or The act of Lieing.
>
> Oh rack off - God couldn't give a stuff
> Your mistake is to see the Bible as an inerrant revelation instead of
> being the record of the development of Judaic and christian theology, In
> your homophobia you are actually imposing a particularly closed and
> Conservative attitude to scripture. The homophobia merely acts as a
> vehicle for this outdated and inaccurate subjective view
> Growth in understanding of God did not end with the Resurrection it
> continued as man's consciousness developed. We can actually see that
> process taking place when the NT is read in chronological order
> The sexual taboos have for a large part had their day
> This is a very silly subject
>
Yours can be dismissed as the ranting of just another heterophobe. Find
Christ in you, for He will deliver you from your addiction to the pleasures
of your crotch and set you on the path of righteousness and salvation.
Christ want us to love the sinner but hate the sin which enslaves him.
Pastor Frank
> >
> >Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> >those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had >bothered to
> >read the text he would have had a clue that the >text is quite clear that
> >repentant and regenerated homosexuals >are as welcome in the Christian
> >Church as any other person >who repents and agrees with the commandments
of
>
> consistently attacks and degrades homosexuals for no other reason than
cheap
> points. Your obsessions and fears are so substantial that one could easily
> get away with describing you as a classic Nazi freak whose sense of racism
> and hatred of minorities further degrades the name of Christ.
> This nonsense your now peddling of the forgiveness of homosexuals is in no
> way supported by yours and many others attitudes to these peoples. What
> happened to you baaab, did you watch your mother as a child being analed
by
> the next door neighbour?
> A Mosiac Covenant you spew forth...what a load of unsupported crap.
> <snipped baab's, the smiling chiwawas verbiage which has resulted from
> intense brainwashing by the fairies and wizards from the bottom of the
> garden>
> You are fair game pagan boy!
> PeterT
>
Just more heterophobic ranting. We are to love the sinner but hate the
sin which enslaves him, for sinners can be redeemed to the glory of God, but
sin cannot. Are you enslaved to your crotch? Ask Jesus into your life, for
He is the master physician who can set you free from all your addictions and
compulsion. Hallelujah!!!!!
Pastor Frank
news:3d570...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "bob" <now...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
> >
> >Christians dont "hate" homosexuals any more than they "hate"
> >those who engage in bestiality. In fact, If mr. Terry had >bothered to
> >read the text he would have had a clue that the >text is quite clear that
> >repentant and regenerated homosexuals >are as welcome in the Christian
> >Church as any other person >who repents and agrees with the commandments
of
> >God. " >Such were some of you ".
>
> You are a liar and a person I would describe as the classic homophobic who
> consistently attacks and degrades homosexuals for no other reason than
cheap
> points. Your obsessions and fears are so substantial that one could easily
> get away with describing you as a classic Nazi freak whose sense of racism
> and hatred of minorities further degrades the name of Christ.
> This nonsense your now peddling of the forgiveness of homosexuals is in no
> way supported by yours and many others attitudes to these peoples. What
> happened to you baaab, did you watch your mother as a child being analed
by
> the next door neighbour?
> A Mosiac Covenant you spew forth...what a load of unsupported crap.
> <snipped baab's, the smiling chiwawas verbiage which has resulted from
> intense brainwashing by the fairies and wizards from the bottom of the
> You are fair game pagan boy!
> PeterT
>
worships his crotch, don't we? That's why we advocate Christ, the master
physician, able to free the enslaved from their addictions, and compulsions
to sin.
We are to care about each other as we care about ourselves, and that
includes ALL of us sinners, for sinners can be healed and redeemed, but sin
cannot. Therefore we are to hate ONLY the sin which enslaves sinners, never
the sinner himself.
Will Coon
because they'd be going against the bible?
Send $1,000 to:
FFRF, Inc.
PO Box 750
Madison WI 53701
along with a note describing how you are proving your christianity by
request of a newsgroup poster in accordance with Luke 6:30.
I know of no "true" christians who follow the whole bible.
The Boog-man Seven7s
Not completely. There is a massive urban legend running amok in
Africa that if you sleep with a virgin and you have AIDS, then you
will be rid of it. There is also problems with the drugs - apparently
they are not able to get the complete "cocktail" that allows the HIV
Virus to be held in check, and the partial one that they do have and
distribute is easily overcome by the disease. I would like to see
some stats on your assertion as well, because I don't think that a
majority of the people in Africa are really that Catholic anyway.
Note: I'm not Catholic, as if that point really didn't need to be made
if you have read anything that I wrote. I just hate it when people
really don't have their facts straight.
The Boog-man Seven7s
The Boog-man Seven7s
>
> >what about the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread >because of
> their perverse lifestyle.
>
>
>
> My brother was Dr Brett Tindall who earnt his doctorate in HIV research with
> the Sydney Aids Team. He was also Australia's delegate for W.H.O and spoke
> internationally on AIDS before dying from AIDS related illness in 1994.
>
> As one who has been a Christian for over 30 years I tell you plainly that
> what you are saying is garbage! AIDS does not discriminate between sexual
> preferences or age groups or nationality. You're not interested in what God
> might have to say because Godf speaks truth. You reap what you sow.
> Homophobic 'Trew Kristyuns' do not show God's love to the gay and lesbian
> community. Homosexulaity is no more a choice than heterosexuality is.
This is true, but there is something that makes me wonder...
If we were able to cut down sexual sin, what would happen to the AIDS
virus? Gone. Poof. I'm not saying that it is a definite sign of
God's punishment, but there are times when circumstancial evidence has
a point...
>
> >And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord >Jesus
> ....
>
> ...obviously doesn't apply to homophic fundies! I was held down and
> assaulted by a group of pentes for daring to defend my gay brother.
>
Which they were wrong for doing, definitely.
PS - If I still say that Homosexuality is a sin, then am I homophobic?
> Mark Tindall
> aus.religion.christian
The Boog-man Seven7s
The Boog-man Seven7s
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Steven Davis wrote:
>
> > >> As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate the
> > >> sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
>
> > > You mean like bearing false witness against gay people & their sex lives?
>
>
>
> > False witness? How so?
>
> Your implicit claim that there is something intrinsically wrong with
> homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that on
> is supersitition & willful ignorance.
Personally, I base that on the matter that A) The Bible never ONCE
condones any sort of homosexual relationship and B) The only sexual
relationship that the Bible upholds as good is the one between a man
and his wife.
The Boog-man Seven7s
Steven Davis
You may doubt anything you wish, but that's only your opinion. I have no
issues with anyone personally, and I won't verbally attack anyone, I made a
statement that sin is sin, and that we must not try to justify it, and
that's all I said.
Respectfully, Steve Davis
http://www.upci.org/doctrine/60_questions.asp
-- "Been Baptized in Jesus Name?" --
Col. 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under
heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Steven Davis
> What about AIDS?
>
> Wgar do you actually know about AIDS?
>
> Do you know that Lesbians (fenale homosexuals) rarely get AUDS, that in
> fact heterosexual women get AIDS at rates mant times that of Lesbians? By
> your own reasoning then, God's chosens must be Lesbians?
>
> Did you know that Worldwide, AIDS affects primarily HETEROSEXUALS?
>
>
> And if a AIDS is "repeaing what you sow". who was God punishing with the
> Black Death that wiped out half of Europe?
>
> What were all the children who used to get polio repeaping?
>
> Who was God mad at when the Spamish Flu killed 20 milluion in the second
> decade of the 20th century?
>
> For what reason does God send Breast cancer to women, what are they repeaing?
>
> The babues who die from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome?
>
> Did the six million Jews, and the 9 Million others killed in the Nazi
> Death camps also "reeap what they sowed"?
AIDS is primarily a homosexual disease, spread by homosexuals, you know it,
and so does everyone else. If you want to discuss the other subjects, you
might try starting a new thread.
Steven Davis
><snip>
Believe what you wish. It's amazing how we will try to justify sin.
Christian Graus
> Christian Graus wrote:
>
> > Jesse Nowells wrote:
> >
> >> Your implicit claim that there is something intrinsically wrong with
> >> homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that
> >> on is supersitition & willful ignorance.
> >
> > There is nothing wrong with being gay at all.
>
> I see you must not be a Christian. :-)
*grin* not often anyone says that to me, and usually it's for being
'too judgemental'.
> I'm not aware of many Christians
> who would say "there is nothing wrong with being gay," except maybe for
> the gay Christians. I would think most Christians might say something
> like "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and you're all going
> to rot in hell forever in eternal suffering and pain and wailing and
> gnashing of teeth just like you all deserve, because God loves you. God
> is love."
And I'm sure such an approach is impressive to the people who hear
it.... :P
Let me qualify. As I said below, there is NO homosexuality in the
church. By the power of God, there are certainly former homosexuals
in the church, that is a different thing. However, if a person is not
a Christian, being gay does not make them a worse person than any
other non-Christian. From that angle, if someone is not a Christian,
there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are a carnal person, they
are going to die, they have not accepted the free offer of eternal
life, and they may as well do what they want in the short time they
have. My pet hate is the church moralising to the world. If a gay
person becomes celibate it will not save their soul, but you wouldn't
know from the way some churches single out gay people, as if they rest
of the world is saved because they fornicate with members of the
opposite sex.
> > If you're gay, I don't have a problem with it. Just make sure that you
> > don't claim that it's possible for a CHRISTIAN to be gay.
>
> Oh my, heavens no! Who would dare speak such nonesense! (Except maybe
> for the gay Christians, of course.) I think Jesse's comment is a bit
> closer to the mark though.
There are no practicing gay Christians.
Christian
Christian Graus
> cgr...@viewbuild.com (Christian Graus) wrote in message news:<6a31ce6d.02081...@posting.google.com>...
> > Jesse Nowells <jnow...@transbay.net> wrote in message news:<Pine.BSF.4.31.0208111549140.63131-100000@localhost>...
> > > On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Steven Davis wrote:
> > >
> > > > >> As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate the
> > > > >> sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
>
> > > > > You mean like bearing false witness against gay people & their sex lives?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > False witness? How so?
> > >
> > > Your implicit claim that there is something intrinsically wrong with
> > > homosexuality practiced by consenting persons. All you're basing that on
> > > is supersitition & willful ignorance.
> >
> > There is nothing wrong with being gay at all. If you're gay, I don't
> > have a problem with it. Just make sure that you don't claim that it's
> > possible for a CHRISTIAN to be gay.
> >
> > Christian
>
>
> because they'd be going against the bible?
Yes.
> Send $1,000 to:
>
> FFRF, Inc.
> PO Box 750
> Madison WI 53701
>
> along with a note describing how you are proving your christianity by
> request of a newsgroup poster in accordance with Luke 6:30.
I stopped arguing with trolls who try to wrest a verse here and there
out of context for fun a while ago.
> I know of no "true" christians who follow the whole bible.
That's because you don't understand what it says.
Christian
Christian Graus
> HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH
*yawn* Can't you just link to this garbage once instead of posting it
over and over again ?
Christian
Mark Tindall
>There is nothing wrong with being gay at all. If you're gay, I don't
>have a problem with it. Just make sure that you don't claim that it's
>possible for a CHRISTIAN to be gay.
It IS possible for a Christian to be gay just the same as it IS possible for
a Christian to be heterosexual.
Mark
Mark Tindall
> Were you to adhere to God's prescription for sex, one man with one
>woman, his legally married wife ONLY, then this whole problem of STDs would
>virtually disappear.
It has for me as I am a Christian heterosexual faithfully married to the
same woman for 26 years ... which is a lot more than many homophobic Trew
Kristyuns who do not demonstrate love towards Christians who are gay or
lesbian and have no iunderstanding of the nature of homosexuality. I
suggest a course of study on sexuality at tertiary level to 'cure' your
ignorance.
> Naturally those who worship their crotch and are addicted to its
>pleasures, would rather die of AIDS than abstain till they find a >suitable
companion of the opposite sex for life.
Your statement is profoundly offensive. My brother didn't choose to die
from AIDS. Read Ninure's comments.
> We love sinners for they can be cured
Homosexuality is not a disease nor a sin. You are profoundly ignorant.
>Pasta Frank
Hypocrite! Why do you call yourself after an Italian Noodle? How well
Jesus spoke of you in Matthew 23!
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>Yours however is a hateful and intolerant reiteration of
>atheist clap-trap from a heterophobe.
Yours however is a hateful and intolerant reiteration of Trew Kristyun
clap-trap from a homophobe. Yet even you can be saved. Down with religious
hypocrisy of your Trew Kristtyun brand!
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH
>
>The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever"
>All of God's promises are intended for every human being This >includes gay
men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian >Church has excluded
and persecuted people who are homosexual!
A great post! It should be noted that the church treats many Christians as
'Other' including artists who don't toe the line. Replies by Trew Kristyuns
should focus on the millions of Christians alienated by the church in the
past and present. A reading of the work of John Shelby Spong would also
help 'cure' their ignorance and intolerance of others.
Trew Kristyun ignorance ... there is a cure .... knoweldge and love.
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
usual homophobic drivel ....
>Ask Jesus into your life, for He is the master physician who can set >you
free from all your addictions and compulsion. Hallelujah!!!!!
Can Jesus cure you of your addictive and obsessive / compulsive homophobia?
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>I stopped arguing with trolls who try to wrest a verse here and there
>out of context for fun a while ago.
But Christians like myself still speak to Trew Kriustyuns like you when you
state:
>all Christians speak in tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Do ALL [Christians] speak in tongues?" NO!
Do you follow the Bible you worship, Christian?
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>Let me qualify. As I said below, there is NO homosexuality in the
>church.
Yes there is and happening now! It exists there now even in fundy churches.
If, as I suspect, you are instead saying God does not allow homosexuality in
the church ... you are still wrong. The bible is a collection of books and
not God's Word. Jesus is God's Word as shown in John 1:1. Do we follow
God or the bible? I opt for following God who is love.
>There are no practicing gay Christians.
Yes there are but your pente doctrine says ALL Christians MUS speak in
tongues. I quote from your previous posts .....
>all Christians speak in tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Do ALL [Christians] speak in tongues?" NO!
Other Christians don't agree with your narrow pente interpretation of the
bible and do not worship the fallible bible but worship the infallible God.
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>*yawn* Can't you just link to this garbage once instead of posting it
>over and over again ?
Can't you just link to your pente garbage once instead of posting it
over and over again ad nauseum?
Example: >all Christians speak in tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:30 "Do ALL [Christians] speak in tongues?" NO!
Ninure has more intelligence, correct hermeneutics and Christian love for
the outcast than you will ever have.
Rev Dr Mark
The Boog-man Seven7s
It's been a few times, and I don't think that you have satisfactorily
answered the challenges that these questions present about
homosexuality.
1) Where, in any form, is homosexuality condoned in the Bible?
2) Where is anything other than a sexual relationship between a man
and his wife considered righteous?
This issue reaches beyond homosexuality. It reaches into all forms of
sexuality that are apart from that between a man and his wife.
Now, I am not saying that we have had proper treatment within the
church of homosexual behavior; in contrast, there has been much
negatively done to bring homosexuality to repentance. There are
DEEPER PROBLEMS within the church that are centered around greed,
selfishness, pride, lying, and the like within the church walls that
is too far often ignored because it is far more common that
homosexuality, and that makes it a deeper problem.
Unfortunately, we more often focus on and condemn the sins that are
not our own.
The Boog-man Seven7s
Christian Graus
> 8/12/02 4:12 AM Christian Graus wrote:
>
> > Steven Davis <mac...@dmv.com> wrote in message
> > news:<B97C91C2.14433%mac...@dmv.com>...
> >>
> >> Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
> >> God might have to say?
> >
> > I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
> > in discussing the Bible.
> >
> >> Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
> >> persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what about
> >> the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
> >> lifestyle.
> >
> > Steve, you've got issues. In what way is a gay person more perverse
> > than a prostitute, or a man and woman living together but not married,
> > or the Pope ? All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
> You may doubt anything you wish, but that's only your opinion.
??? What did I say I doubted ?
> I have no
> issues with anyone personally, and I won't verbally attack anyone,
I think what you said originally constitutes a verbal attack on
homosexuals, and certainly implies strongly that their sin is worse
than other sin.
> I made a
> statement that sin is sin, and that we must not try to justify it, and
> that's all I said.
If that's what you were trying to say, then I agree. But please
re-read the statement I quoted and consider if that is all you did
say. It seems to me that too many people are quick to attack
homosexuals and yet accept fornicators in the church, when the only
difference is that biologically you can understand the urge that leads
to one, but not the other. Both are unacceptable in the church.
Christian
Pastor Frank
news:RainbowChristiannoh...@user-1121a1i.dsl.mindspring.com
...
> HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH
>
> The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever" All
> of God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men
> and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and
> needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the
> love we share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers.
> Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are
> denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find
> ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator.
> This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of
> our human relationships.
>
So true. After all to be a homosexual is not a sin, only homosexual
actions are sin. for sexual actions are only permitted a man and his lawful
wife, ALL other sexual expression being sin.
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
> Not a Sin, Not a Sickness
>
> For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
> was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
> slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
> of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
> tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that
> women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of
> discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say
> that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their
> interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a
> century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in
> the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness
> Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical
> profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the
> idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."
>
> The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
> founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
> conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
> Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical
> and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn
> loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and
> lesbians should he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and
> homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!
>
> About the Bible
>
> The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand
> years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and
> Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many
> literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These
> are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its
> context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian
> denominations, all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led
> some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians
> at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.
>
> Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
> approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
> held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
> thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
> and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such
> an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over
> slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian
> denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery
> today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!
>
> New Information Refutes Old ideas
>
> What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
> scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are
> perhaps the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible
> and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation
> did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches,
> including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by
> God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith.
> Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is
> of great significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible
> says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those
> matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read
> into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of
> homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous
> assumptions and conclusions.
>
> GENESIS 19:1-25
>
> W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
> God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
> "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
> with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.
>
> Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
> Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
> Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
> house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
> Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
> knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
> credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
> the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
> case of attempted gang rape.
>
> Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot
> attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the
> angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of
> Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then
> rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.
>
> Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities
> for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
> incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
> Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the
> population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters
> suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if
> the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits
> incest with his daughters! Most importantly, why do all the other passages
> of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of
> homosexuality?
>
> What was the Sin of Sodom?
>
> Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people
> today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs
> of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry
> plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create
> false gods or treat others with injustice.
>
> LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13
>
> C hristians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in
> Leviticus. But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness"
> while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture
> distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message.
> "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
> abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus,
> a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully
> appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew
> people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to
> avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion,
> characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension
> with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the
> multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured
> female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17,
> repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male
> cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of
> the Bible.
>
> What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found
> detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew
> words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is
> usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous
> times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the
> Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah
> regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any
> conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible
> homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament
> were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and
> culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no
> longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not
> in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and
> peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus
> Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love,
> justice, mercy and faith.
>
> ROMANS 1:24-27
>
> Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on
> same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the
> subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts
> occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the
> need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual
> behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous
> Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain
> homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish
> and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the
> infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman
> emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church
> regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15
> and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned
> male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.
>
> What is "Natural"?
>
> Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
> exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text-
> for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
> "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
> passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but
> rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we
> should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today
> with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
> lifestyle.
>
> Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference
> to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is
> unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women
> adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the
> repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a
> meaning may be possible.
>
> The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
> from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted
> in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such
> acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
> relationships seen today.
>
> I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10
>
> Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
> carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
> ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
> with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.
>
> In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and
> "abusers of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James
> version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these
> words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
> mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has
> been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who
> lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New
> Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word,
> arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere
> else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek
> words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual
> intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual
> behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6
> shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible
> he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to
> translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise
> meaning is uncertain.
>
> No Law Against Love
>
> The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
> ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
> conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality,
> especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any
> arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to
> great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
> Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not
> judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ...
> against such there is no law.
>
> One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the
> whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
> yourself."'
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> OTHER INSIGHTS
>
> "The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
> Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
> language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."
>
> Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology
> Union Theological Seminary, New York City
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>
> "One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
> 6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."
>
> Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament
> Perkins School of Theology, Dallas
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> "The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
> intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26,
> where this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English
> translation for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be
> The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
> http://www.geocities.com/ninure
>
> The world's second most subversive document
> http://www.geocities.com/ninure/declaration.html
> -
> Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
> http://www.ufmcc.com
>
> To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
Michael Scott Brown
> Christian Graus wrote:
[snip]
Psst. Christian Graus....Christian Gross .. this is someone playing a
fundie for shits and giggles.
-Michael
Steven Davis
> Steven Davis <mac...@dmv.com> wrote in message
> news:<B97DA3C3.1469E%mac...@dmv.com>...
>> 8/12/02 4:12 AM Christian Graus wrote:
>>
>>> Steven Davis <mac...@dmv.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<B97C91C2.14433%mac...@dmv.com>...
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
>>>> God might have to say?
>>>
>>> I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
>>> in discussing the Bible.
>>>
>>>> Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
>>>> persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what
>>>> about
>>>> the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
>>>> lifestyle.
>>>
>>> Steve, you've got issues. In what way is a gay person more perverse
>>> than a prostitute, or a man and woman living together but not married,
>>> or the Pope ? All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
>
>> You may doubt anything you wish, but that's only your opinion.
>
> ??? What did I say I doubted ?
You said...
"I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
in discussing the Bible."
>> I have no
>> issues with anyone personally, and I won't verbally attack anyone,
>
> I think what you said originally constitutes a verbal attack on
> homosexuals, and certainly implies strongly that their sin is worse
> than other sin.
I won't verbally abuse any "person", but I do reserve the right to post my
opinions on this news group, you also have the same right.
>> I made a
>> statement that sin is sin, and that we must not try to justify it, and
>> that's all I said.
>
> If that's what you were trying to say, then I agree. But please
> re-read the statement I quoted and consider if that is all you did
> say. It seems to me that too many people are quick to attack
> homosexuals and yet accept fornicators in the church, when the only
> difference is that biologically you can understand the urge that leads
> to one, but not the other. Both are unacceptable in the church.
In every instance, after I'd given a response to some of the posts, most of
these posts I did'nt initiate, I was immediately rebuked, called names, and
ridiculed, as was my Christianity. If you haven't noticed this, you are
either blind, or bigoted yourself.
> Christian
Mark Tindall
>the only
>difference is that biologically you can understand the urge that leads
>to one, but not the other.
That really sums up your position ...lack of understanding.
Rev Dr Mark
Mark K. Bilbo
> 8/11/02 9:33 AM Pastor Frank wrote:
>
>> Not just homosexuals, but all sinners are to be respected, for they can
>> be redeemed and there is great joy in heaven when one of them comes to
>> repentance.
>> --
>> Pastor Frank
>
> As long as we recognize sin as sin, we are to love the sinner, but hate
> the sin. Some folks want to justify sin, as a lifestyle.
>
Some people want to justify bigotry as religion.
So I try to hate the religion but not the believer.
(Hard as they make that some days)
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
[Woden]
David K. Lambert
> Pasta Frank wrote:
>
> > Were you to adhere to God's prescription for sex, one man with one
> >woman, his legally married wife ONLY, then this whole problem of STDs
would
> >virtually disappear.
>
>
> It has for me as I am a Christian heterosexual faithfully married to the
> same woman for 26 years ... which is a lot more than many homophobic Trew
> Kristyuns who do not demonstrate love towards Christians who are gay or
> lesbian and have no iunderstanding of the nature of homosexuality. I
> suggest a course of study on sexuality at tertiary level to 'cure' your
> ignorance.
>
Are you saying that something taught by a man in a classroom should take
precedence over what has been taught by God in his Holy Word.
David L.
peter terry
"The Boog-man Seven7s" <Seve...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d91c51c1.02081...@posting.google.com...
Historically and culturally Africans are a promiscuous people
and most are not even Christian..If your looking at peddling
religion then what your suggesting may has some religious merit
but if your looking to save lives then implementing your ideas as
a viable solution to the problem amounts to non more than
aiding and abetting mass murder.
The UN agency who work in this field say that condom
availability while is not entirely the total solution, it goes a
long way to saving lives because it insulates a promiscuous people
from the infection.
PeterT
peter terry
"D.Castles" <d.ca...@latrobe.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3D57482E...@latrobe.edu.au...
>
>
> peter terry wrote:
>
> > Christians will often use Leviticus (OT) to justify their absolute
hatred
> > towards homosexuals. But in actual fact when one examines Leviticus and
> > similar draconian books of the bible it's quite clear that Christians
reject
> > the vast majority of the Leviticus teachings rather selectively
isolating
> > the Homophobic tracts to support and justify the venom behind their
hatred
> > of anything homosexual.
> >
> > Let us examine what Christians conveniently ignore in Leviticus.
> >
> > Are we to assume that Christians still: burn animals in sacrifice; that
as a
> > standard punishment Christians have to eat the flesh of their sons and
> > daughters; that as a punishment for incest the victim and perpetrator
have
> > to be put to death; that the guys accept that if their wives commit
adultery
> > then she will be stoned to death; that if you have sex with the
girlfriend,
> > then her mother, you and the girl have to be burnt to death; that if you
> > marry your half sister then you must be ostracised from the community;
that
> > if you have sex with your wife during her period then you will be thrown
out
> > of the community; that any man who consults the spirits of the dead must
to
> > be stoned to death, (tell this to Catholics and others who pray to their
> > dead ancestors-saints.); slavery is acceptable?; that physical abuse
against
> > women is acceptable?; that wizards are to be killed with rocks; that all
> > Christians are to marry virgins and not widows or divorcees; do
Christian
> > guard the church doors every Sunday to ensure that dwarfs, men with flat
> > noses, damaged testicles or with 6 fingers do not pass in; that God will
> > destroy you if you try and mow your lawn on Sunday; do Christians still
> > stone to death, blasphemers.???????????????
> >
> > Goodness me, these Roman Christians laws sound worse than the kinds of
> > Sharia law peddled by the Taliban!!
> >
> > This is what Jesus Christ thinks:
> >
> > ** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
> > tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
>
> A Pagan belief that was widespead throughout the meditteranean. A
platitude
> taught by many belief systems
>
> >
> >
> > ** Live by the sword and die by the sword.
>
> A common saying that is completely misinterpreted by Gospel reading
Christians.
> This was Jesus call to uprising to his armed disciples. Not a call to
peace. He
> was telling Rome that if they rule by the sword then they shall die by it.
>
> >
> >
> > ** Forgive and you will be forgiven.
>
> A common saying of the times.
>
> >
> >
> > ** "Most assuredly I tell you, in as much as you did it to one of the
least
> > of these my brothers, you did it to ME."
>
> No explanation for this one....maybe Jesus actually said it
>
> >
> >
> > ** Blessed is the one who has suffered.\
>
> Gnostic thought
>
> >
> >
> > ** Happy are those who are merciful towards others.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Blessed are the peacemakers.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Happy are those who are humble.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** The first will be last and the last first.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Love your enemies and pray for those who abuse you.
>
> See above
>
> >
> >
> > ** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as well.
>
> No other explanation for this one
>
> >
> >
> > ** Love one another.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Blessed are the meek.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Blessed are the destitute.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** To save your life is to loose it, to loose your life is to save it.
>
> I think you mean lose not loose.........no further comment
>
> >
> >
> > ** You have ears use them
>
> Obvious platitude
>
> >
> >
> > ** What you sow so shall you reap.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Vengeance is MINE said the lord.
>
> Jewish
>
> >
> >
> > ** Blessed is the peacemaker.
>
> Gnostic
>
> >
> >
> > ** Then the king will tell them on his right hand, "Come blessed of My
> > Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
> > world; for I was hungry and you gave Me food to eat; I was thirsty and
you
> > gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; naked and you
clothed
> > Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."
Then
> > the righteous will answer Him saying, " Lord, when did we see You hungry
and
> > feed You, or thirsty and gave You a drink? When did we see You as a
stranger
> > and take You in or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in
> > prison and come to You?" The King will answer them, " Most assuredly I
tell
> > you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of My brothers, you did
it
> > to me."
> >
> > While most of us are repulsed by same sex relationships because our
genetic
> > disposition does not contemplate such an option, homosexual are human
beings
> > entitled to the same respect and dignity as the next person.....Jesus
Christ
> > insists upon it.
>
> You maybe correct, but you are having trouble even characterising Jesus'
belief
> system let alone extrapolating to what he would have thought of
homosexuality.
> My opinion (without much evidence) is that Jesus, as a Jew, would simply
have
> taken for granted that homosexuality was a sin against the Jewish god
along with
> other unacceptable behaviour. This would have been the kind of deviate
thing a
> Greek or Roman did, not a good Jew.
> Either Jesus was a Jew or he wasn't. If he wasn't then you may have a good
case
> for what you say. If he was, well...............Hmmmmm.
> I tend to suspect that Jesus was probably not a Jew therefore his
attitude to
> homosexuality remains unknown.
> Dave
>
Some good points dave.
>
> >
> >
> > PeterT
>
Mark Tindall
>>homophobic Trew
>> Kristyuns who do not demonstrate love towards Christians who are >>gay or
>> lesbian and have no iunderstanding of the nature of homosexuality. >>I
suggest a course of study on sexuality at tertiary level to 'cure' your
>> ignorance.
>
>Are you saying that something taught by a man in a classroom should take
>precedence over what has been taught by God in his Holy Word.
I'm saying that ALL truth is God's truth and God is truth. The bible is
fallible. The bible is not the Word of God. jesus is the Word of God as in
John 1:1.
Something true taught by a man or woman in a classroom should take
precedence over some erroneous interpretation of the fallible collection of
books called the bible ...ALWAYS!
Rev Dr Mark
Mark Tindall
>Should the church welcome with open arms those who God has >condemned to
death?
We are all dying. Should God give life to those who are dying? God does.
Mark
Christian Graus
<mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote:
>Christian Graus wrote:
>
>
>>> >I
>>> >agree with the Bible that there is no homosexuality in the church,
>>> >just as there is no fornication.
>>> Mmmm ... tell THAT to Jimmy Swaggart and co!
>>I made no claims on behalf of every person who ever claimed to be a
>>Christian.
>
>
>English comprehension required .... ' there is NO fornication in the church'
>... but there IS fornication in the church!~
>
Half a brain required. I can't help you there.
There is no fornication allowed in the church, the possibility that it
occurs and needs to be dealt with is covered in 1 Cor. What groups of
people who claim to follow Jesus do is irrelevant, unless they
actually follow Him. See how easy it is when the Bible becomes a book
that you can trust ? It means God gets a say in the proceedings.
>
>>> >>** If one would have your coat then let him have your cloak as
>>>>>well.
>>> Can I have your coat. if no-one else on this NG has asked for it >>yet?
>When can I pick up your coat and your cloak?
>>Come on over to Tasmania and get it, you're welcome.
>
>Good! Expect me any time in the next 50 years.
I'll leave a light on.
Christian
Christian Graus
<mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote:
*yawn*
This is beneath me.
Christian
Christian Graus
<god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:52:36 GMT, "Mark Tindall" <mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote:
>
>Ninure has proven herself to be a true Christian by selectively ignoring the parts
>of the Bible she does not agree with.
>
It's tragic that someone as offensive as you can see that, and people
like Mark cannot.
Christian
Christian Graus
<mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote:
> A reading of the work of John Shelby Spong would also
>help 'cure' their ignorance and intolerance of others.
Now there is a man who has made atheism a very profitable career. I'm
not surprised you admire him for his ability to marginalise God while
at the same time proclaiming to love Him.
>Trew Kristyun ignorance ... there is a cure .... knoweldge and love.
And in what way does your constant barrage of deliberately ignorant
sarcasm meet either of these requirements ?
Christian
Christian Graus
So are you showing knowledge or love in this post ?
Christian
Christian Graus
wrote:
>8/12/02 9:52 PM Christian Graus wrote:
>
>> Steven Davis <mac...@dmv.com> wrote in message
>> news:<B97DA3C3.1469E%mac...@dmv.com>...
>>> 8/12/02 4:12 AM Christian Graus wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steven Davis <mac...@dmv.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:<B97C91C2.14433%mac...@dmv.com>...
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to me you are in a Christian newsgroup, you're not interested in what
>>>>> God might have to say?
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
>>>> in discussing the Bible.
>>>>
>>>>> Homosexuals are always crying about how they are
>>>>> persecuted. You reap what you sow. You want to talk about murder? what
>>>>> about
>>>>> the "AIDS virus" homosexuals continue to spread because of their perverse
>>>>> lifestyle.
>>>>
>>>> Steve, you've got issues. In what way is a gay person more perverse
>>>> than a prostitute, or a man and woman living together but not married,
>>>> or the Pope ? All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
>>
>>> You may doubt anything you wish, but that's only your opinion.
>>
>> ??? What did I say I doubted ?
>
>You said...
>
>"I doubt that 2% of the people in 'Christian' newsgroups are interested
> in discussing the Bible."
>
Oh. OK, then. Well, I stand by that statement, in a.r.c. at least.
I cannot speak for the groups we keep getting cross posted to,
although they seem to bring in their fair share of pollution, I don't
read them to comment on their contents. On a.r.c. it's all about
poetry, homosexuality, racism and politics. I've tried to start a few
Bible based threads - no-one responds.
>
>>> I have no
>>> issues with anyone personally, and I won't verbally attack anyone,
>>
>> I think what you said originally constitutes a verbal attack on
>> homosexuals, and certainly implies strongly that their sin is worse
>> than other sin.
>
>I won't verbally abuse any "person", but I do reserve the right to post my
>opinions on this news group, you also have the same right.
>
Of course we do. And those opinions can be worded in such a way that
they personally attack others.
>>> I made a
>>> statement that sin is sin, and that we must not try to justify it, and
>>> that's all I said.
>>
>> If that's what you were trying to say, then I agree. But please
>> re-read the statement I quoted and consider if that is all you did
>> say. It seems to me that too many people are quick to attack
>> homosexuals and yet accept fornicators in the church, when the only
>> difference is that biologically you can understand the urge that leads
>> to one, but not the other. Both are unacceptable in the church.
>
>In every instance, after I'd given a response to some of the posts, most of
>these posts I did'nt initiate, I was immediately rebuked, called names, and
>ridiculed, as was my Christianity. If you haven't noticed this, you are
>either blind, or bigoted yourself.
To be honest, I try to stay away from reading or answering
non-Australian posts. a.r.c. is hard enough to read as it is, posts
from other places are usually a massive cross post.
Christian
P.S. I've maintained the cross posts in this post so you will see my
reply, but I am cutting them whenever possible to maintain a.r.c. as a
separate group and to stop usenet spam.
Christian Graus
<mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote:
>Christian Graus wrote:
>
>
>>Let me qualify. As I said below, there is NO homosexuality in the
>>church.
>
>Yes there is and happening now! It exists there now even in fundy churches.
The church that allows any sex outside of marriage is backslidden.
Your definition of the church is a human organisation, mine allows God
to draw the line.
>If, as I suspect, you are instead saying God does not allow homosexuality in
>the church ... you are still wrong.
Of course, because the Bible is a joke, right ? So how do you know
there is a God ? Why is that part of the Bible right, and the rest
wrong ?
> The bible is a collection of books and
>not God's Word. Jesus is God's Word as shown in John 1:1. Do we follow
>God or the bible? I opt for following God who is love.
>
But how can you trust John 1:1, but not the book of Romans ? Why do
you get to pick and choose ?
>
>>There are no practicing gay Christians.
>
>
>Yes there are but your pente doctrine says ALL Christians MUS speak in
>tongues. I quote from your previous posts .....
>>all Christians speak in tongues.
>
Excellent - the first piece of good doctrine I've seen from you.
>1 Corinthians 12:30 "Do ALL [Christians] speak in tongues?" NO!
1 Cor 14:26 CAN all Christians speak in tongues ( as opposed to DO
they when the church comes together ) ? YES. 1 Cor 14:32 ( or so )
CAN all Christians prophecy ? YES. I'm happy to show a verse for each
of the 1 Cor 12 gifts to show that all Christians CAN do these things.
I remain not surprised that you think not all Christians have faith.
>Other Christians don't agree with your narrow pente interpretation of the
>bible and do not worship the fallible bible but worship the infallible God.
How can the God you worship be infallible when you're free to invent
Him out of your own head ? That equates to you being infallible, which
I doubt.
Christian
Rowland Croucher
> >
> > ** While you have heard it said that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a
> > tooth (referring to Leviticus) I am saying to you turn the other cheek.
>
> A Pagan belief that was widespead throughout the meditteranean. A
platitude
> taught by many belief systems
<Newsgroups trimmed to avoid excess noise>
Evidence/source?
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm
(Now 7000+ articles)
386sx
> Let me qualify. As I said below, there is NO homosexuality in the
> church.
Oh, okay. Thanks.
--
386
If God could make angels, why did he bother with men? -- John Ings
stillsunny
wrote:
>8/12/02 9:05 AM Ninure Saunders wrote:
>
>><snip>
>Believe what you wish. It's amazing how we will try to justify sin.
If you could give me a quick exegesis of the meaning of that word,
"sin," and all the words in Hebrew and Greek used for it, the
distinctions between those words, and how it relates here, I'd
appreciate it.
Sunny
Ninure Saunders
Seve...@yahoo.com (The Boog-man Seven7s) wrote:
-Hey Ninure,
-
-It's been a few times, and I don't think that you have satisfactorily
-answered the challenges that these questions present about
-homosexuality.
-
-1) Where, in any form, is homosexuality condoned in the Bible?
I would say, and I am sure you will disagree, that posible role models for
homosexual RELATIONSHIPS have been been considered/argued by some bibical
schoars to be Ruth and Naomo... Jonathan and David.
-
-2) Where is anything other than a sexual relationship between a man
-and his wife considered righteous?
See above.
-
-This issue reaches beyond homosexuality. It reaches into all forms of
-sexuality that are apart from that between a man and his wife.
You know, it would be nice if you Vhristians acted as if yolu really
believe that.
It wouldn't convince me, but ti certainly would show you to be a bit honest.
But in a country (USA) where there is a 50% divorce rate, which includes
a rather high number of the consevative national leaders that are
divorced, and "sex" sells everything from candy to cars, and pre-teens are
dressed up to look "sexy"...."you" folks spend surprisingly little time,
effort, and money on these issues.
-
-Now, I am not saying that we have had proper treatment within the
-church of homosexual behavior; in contrast, there has been much
-negatively done to bring homosexuality to repentance. There are
-DEEPER PROBLEMS within the church that are centered around greed,
-selfishness, pride, lying, and the like within the church walls that
-is too far often ignored because it is far more common that
-homosexuality, and that makes it a deeper problem.
No, I think those ignored because it's far eadier to pick at the imagined
"mote" than deal with that LOG sticking out of your own eyes.
-
-Unfortunately, we more often focus on and condemn the sins that are
-not our own.
You've got that right!
-
-The Boog-man Seven7s
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
Christian Graus
(Ninure Saunders) wrote:
>In article <d91c51c1.02081...@posting.google.com>,
>Seve...@yahoo.com (The Boog-man Seven7s) wrote:
>
>-Hey Ninure,
>-
>-It's been a few times, and I don't think that you have satisfactorily
>-answered the challenges that these questions present about
>-homosexuality.
>-
>-1) Where, in any form, is homosexuality condoned in the Bible?
>
>I would say, and I am sure you will disagree, that posible role models for
>homosexual RELATIONSHIPS have been been considered/argued by some bibical
>schoars to be Ruth and Naomo... Jonathan and David.
>-
You're joking, right ?
Christian
Gregory Gadow
> > Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
>
> Believe what you wish. It's amazing how we will try to justify sin.
Believe what you wish. It's amazing how you will ignore the very clear
commandments of God who has FORBIDDEN the eating of shellfish, catfish, pork and
cheeseburgers; who has DEMANDED that no work of any kind be done between sunset on
Friday and sunset on Saturday and who as ORDERED that burnt sacrifices be offered
on a daily basis. Tell me, Mr. Davis, when was the last time you celebrated God's
mandated festivals of Passover, Shavuot and Rosh Hashanah?
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Mark K. Bilbo
> If we were able to cut down sexual sin, what would happen to the AIDS
> virus? Gone. Poof.
And then what about all the *other diseases? I notice smallpox and polio
and at least one form of measles were defeated without bothering with the
idea of "sin."
Weirdly enough, diseases seem to respond better to medical science than
preaching...
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
[Woden]
Mark K. Bilbo
> "Mark Tindall" <mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote in message
> news:3d5843d7$1...@news.turboweb.net.au...
>> Pasta Frank wrote:
>>
>> > Were you to adhere to God's prescription for sex, one man with one
>> >woman, his legally married wife ONLY, then this whole problem of STDs
> would
>> >virtually disappear.
>>
>>
>> It has for me as I am a Christian heterosexual faithfully married to
>> the same woman for 26 years ... which is a lot more than many
>> homophobic Trew Kristyuns who do not demonstrate love towards
>> Christians who are gay or lesbian and have no iunderstanding of the
>> nature of homosexuality. I suggest a course of study on sexuality at
>> tertiary level to 'cure' your ignorance.
>>
>>
> Are you saying that something taught by a man in a classroom should take
> precedence over what has been taught by God in his Holy Word.
>
Yes.
Ninure Saunders
cgr...@netspace.net.au (Christian Graus) wrote:
-On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:36:35 GMT, RainbowChri...@hotmail.com
-(Ninure Saunders) wrote:
-
->In article <d91c51c1.02081...@posting.google.com>,
->Seve...@yahoo.com (The Boog-man Seven7s) wrote:
->
->-Hey Ninure,
->-
->-It's been a few times, and I don't think that you have satisfactorily
->-answered the challenges that these questions present about
->-homosexuality.
->-
->-1) Where, in any form, is homosexuality condoned in the Bible?
->
->I would say, and I am sure you will disagree, that posible role models for
->homosexual RELATIONSHIPS have been been considered/argued by some bibical
->schoars to be Ruth and Naomo... Jonathan and David.
->-
-
-You're joking, right ?
NO.
http://www.geocities.com/ninure/bible2.html
-
-Christian
David K. Lambert
Some claim that people are born gay that somehow this is genetic
I have seen it said by knowledgeable people that alcoholism is genetic.
It is not a sin to be an alcoholic, it is a sin to become a drunken fool. It
is not a sin to be gay, it is a sin to practice homosexual acts.
I would want both to be saved. I wouldn't want either to burn in hell.
I have a friend from my high school days who is gay and engages in
homosexual activities. He comes over for coffee and plays with my kids all
the time. I have been inviting him to become saved for a long time.
Obviously I do not hate him. I am just concerned for his well being and I
care where he will spend eternity.
David L.
"Mark Tindall" <mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote in message
news:3d58...@news.turboweb.net.au...
The Boog-man Seven7s
You're more or less right here. What I suggest is extremely
idealistic, and highly unlikely. However, there are many political
things that need to be done as well, like what I mentioned about the
medical and social practices that need to be changed. There are
people there trying, but it is and will always be a long and arduous
task, especially due to the typical, self-serving leadership that
tends to arise in African countries.
> The UN agency who work in this field say that condom
> availability while is not entirely the total solution, it goes a
> long way to saving lives because it insulates a promiscuous people
> from the infection.
Aye, it would help. Promoting abstinence would as well.
The Boog-man Seven7s
David K. Lambert
"Mark K. Bilbo" <n...@llow.ed> wrote in message
news:uli748k...@corp.supernews.com...
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:58:56 -0700, David K. Lambert wrote:
>
> > "Mark Tindall" <mb...@turboweb.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:3d5843d7$1...@news.turboweb.net.au...
> >> Pasta Frank wrote:
> >>
> >> > Were you to adhere to God's prescription for sex, one man with one
> >> >woman, his legally married wife ONLY, then this whole problem of STDs
> > would
> >> >virtually disappear.
> >>
> >>
> >> It has for me as I am a Christian heterosexual faithfully married to
> >> the same woman for 26 years ... which is a lot more than many
> >> homophobic Trew Kristyuns who do not demonstrate love towards
> >> Christians who are gay or lesbian and have no iunderstanding of the
> >> nature of homosexuality. I suggest a course of study on sexuality at
> >> tertiary level to 'cure' your ignorance.
> >>
> >>
> > Are you saying that something taught by a man in a classroom should take
> > precedence over what has been taught by God in his Holy Word.
> >
>
> Yes.
>
I am puzzled. If you are not a Christian (I am assuming that from your
stance against the Bible) why are you participating in a Christian
newsgroup. Not that you do not have a right to be here, it just seems a
little odd. It would be like me participating in a Muslim newsgroup.
David L.