multiculturalism
stereotype
(aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares. I don't mind
telling you that I was so happy to see black/brown/white/yellow and
all shades in between existing peacefully that I shed a couple of
tears. 6'4", 17 stone, red hair, bikie beard, embarrassed to show how
happy I was. When my nephew said "what's wrong uncle stereo" how was I
going to explain it to him? How do you tell him you are looking at one
of the most beautiful scenes it's ever been you good fortune to see?
How do you explain that you are so happy because despite some of the
vicious bastards that inhabit the internet and parliament house, there
are still scenes that make you realise what a great country this is
and what a great future it has. All I could tell him was that I had a
headache.
My nephew went along with a 60 year old pair of ice skates and a 90
year old pair of clogs, and dutch clothes made for the day by his
grandmother. They all brought food, food from so many countries you
couldn't have tried a mouthful of food from all the countries even if
you starved yourself for a week beforehand. He went around telling all
the girls how beautiful they looked, every one of them, whatever their
colour and whatever they looked like. Kids just don't care. If only
their parents could be the same.
Here's hoping that the majority of these kids grow up free of hate and
free from parents like some of you vicious bastards. Here's hoping
they don't have parents who routinely act out hateful feelings like
jealousy, loathing, bitterness, contempt, disgust, irritation, to
outright racist hate. Here's hoping their parents can think about
maybe not passing on their ignorance to children who copy them with no
thought as to how their behaviour affects others.
I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Hating is an art. Like
any art, its mastery takes practice and discipline, and some of you
people are masters of hate just like Vermeer, Van Gogh and Rembrandt
were master painters. To hate well, you must be able to distinguish
between your objective and subjective hate. You ust be willing to risk
verbalising your objective hate and are determined to ride out the
consequences of hating out loud or posting your hate filled diatribes
on the internet. Objective hating resolves the conflicts that breed
hate and transforms hate into its alternate feeling, love. Objective
hating affirms life, whereas subjective hating affirms destruction and
death.
I freely admit that by typing this I am myself expressing hate, and I
freely admit I hate some of you bastards with a passion. But my hate
is objective (designed to get rid of subjective hate), whereas yours
is subjective which stops some of you (and your children) from
allowing others to enjoy their life to the full.
Today I had feelings of pride from living in such a great country.
Then I was reminded of some of you low-life cunts and realised there
is still a lot of hate to be gotten rid of. Hate against homosexuals,
lesbians, other cultures, there is still plenty of it out there. You
can't destroy the beauty in your own country. You might be trying
hard, but you're fighting a losing battle. There are too many people
out there who know how lucky their kids are to be living in such a
beautiful country. You dinosaurs are fighting a losing battle.
Che Guava
truth is that which uplifts.
bar...@my-deja.com
Thanks for writing that. After more than twenty years of travelling
I've been able to see how self-destructive the monocultural mentality
can be. If only to value one's own culture by measuring it objectively
against others, you can gain a lot. As far as you guys in Australia are
concerned, most of you should be so bloody thankful for the chances you
have and the lives you can lead.
barttr (going east again tomorrow... sigh)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Truth Hurts
aus.politics. With your permission I will take it to school and read it to
the kids.
Cheers from
T.Hurts.
Minotaur
It's nice to read something uplifting in here for a change. *8)
"stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
Neville Duguid
had fancydress balls at school when I was a kid.
We dressed up in all sorts of national costumes - as Dutch people with
stiff bonnets and clogs, Alladdin <Chinese), Eskimos (but only in
winter), that Arab with a magic carpet (forgotten his name).. We also
had a great time, forgot all our daytime squabbles, and all got on
famously for the rest of the evening. If our teacher had asked us to
dress up as our own ancestors, we might not have had as much variety in
our costumes, and hence not as much fun, but that would hardly have been
our fault..
My only gripe with you is that you seem to hate your own contemporaries
based on nothing more than the way you categorize them for political
purposes, but think you've discovered the secret of eternal happiness
among their children. Merely because you assume they will all grow up to
view the world the same way you do.
What I would like to know is where your hate came from in the first
place. You must have been brought up in a very different neighbourhood
to what I was. Being happy and capable of having a good time is a
universal quality of childhood. (They're not like that 24 hours a day,
of course, but give them something to enthrall their minds, and they all
turn into little angels - at least until they start getting tired and
grumpy again..
If you think all you have to do is surround yourself with anyone at all
who is not Anglo Australian, and universal happiness will prevail for
the rest of your days, you could try emigrating to somewhere like New
York where multiculturalism reigns supreme.. Do you really believe you
will be allowed to remain undisturbed in your mutual trust and goodwill
towards others just because no one else in the alleyway has the same
sort of ancestors as yourself?
Don't let me wake you from your dream, stereotype. I forgive you for
calling me a cunt. But I challenge you to test your theory by trying it
on the parents of those kids you favour on the basis of their ancestry
rather than their personal qualities as individuals. See if you receive
the same level of tolerance and understanding as you get from a crusty
old Anglo-Australian like me. Try calling their oldies cunts and see if
they're as tolerant as I am.
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
--
Neville Duguid * Talk sense to a fool and *
nevi...@bigpond.net.au * he calls you foolish!! *
Spare me, spam me not * - Euripides *
Lance Baker
> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
> most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>
> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
> absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
> dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares.
How did the True Blue Australian "costume" look?
Lance.
Seppo Renfors
Neville goes to prove the point stereotype was making. First of all
Nev has confessed to be of the kind person stereotype have described
as, "vicious bastards" and "parents who routinely act out hateful
feelings like jealousy, loathing, bitterness, contempt, disgust,
irritation, to outright racist hate.". Neville accepted this of
himself by stating this, "I forgive you for calling me a cunt." -a
term used by stereotype to describe the aforementioned people.
I have to disagree that these "vicious bastards" are limited to what
Nev claims in his statement, "...same level of tolerance and
understanding as you get from a crusty old Anglo-Australian like me".
It applies far wider than merely the "Anglo-Australian", which is
merely the group that is "acceptable" to Neville, as implied by the
statement.
What does it take to get through to people LIKE Neville? Stereotype
demonstrated very vividly that children have none of these hang-ups
like Nev has. That it is something that is actively taught, by actions
and speech, to the children of bigots by their own parents!
This morning I saw on the channel 9 morning news program, footage from
US, where kids were sitting there doing their school work, while the
mother was busy engaging in KKK work at the KKK headquarters!! Another
white supremacist group, complete with the "Heil Hitlers" and
Swashticka flags, and burning swashticka symbols. There were the kids,
banging on drums to race hate chants - literature denigrating Negroes
and other coloured people were handed out. A "dress code" was shaven
heads, or virtually shaven, "No: 1 or 2 hair cuts with that mob.
This was another vivid demonstration of how children are taught race
hatred! It is an evil disservice the parents do to their children, by
*deliberatly* damaging them psychologically.
Well said stereotype!
--
SIR -Philosopher Unauthorised
------------------------------------------------------------------
" Don't resent getting old. A great many are denied that privilege "
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Wakefield
"Lance Baker" <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote:
> stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> > many of these kids have at least one parent from another country
that
> > most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
> >
> > These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> > believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> > hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
> > absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
> > dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares.
>
Is there is only one? can you describe it?
I thought the costumes worn by convicts, soldiers,
merchants and chinese goldworkers were quite diverse?
Surely his point was that ALL of the children were
true-blue little Aussies!
None of us wear the animal skins of the indigenous people,
our immigrant predecessors wore their various national
dress which he has described very nicely, and we now all wear
standard Western dress (or most of us do anyway) which
still bears a resemblence to the various trousers and
shirts and dresses from England and Ireland and Wales
and Greece and Italy, and China and Vietnam.
Why do you need to inject a note of dissension, even resentment,
into such a charming story?
The convicts never had RM Williams boots, Driza-bone coats and
Akubra's, mate!
And leg irons seems a bit grim for a kindy pageant!
>
> Lance.
Lance Baker
news:8mdgmg$be$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I didn't.
I asked a simple question - nothing more, nothing less.
Dan Wakefield
Four people seem to have joined Che in warm appreciation
of Stereo's charming post.. is that why you choose
to take such a contrary approach?
In article <1eetcqq.r4...@cpe-203-45-152-13.qld.bigpond.net.au>,
nevi...@bigpond.net.au (Neville Duguid) wrote:
> I don't wish to denigrate your sentiments here,
> stereotype, but we also
> had fancydress balls at school when I was a kid.
>
> We dressed up in all sorts of national costumes - as Dutch people with
> stiff bonnets and clogs, Alladdin <Chinese), Eskimos (but only in
> winter), that Arab with a magic carpet (forgotten his name).. We also
> had a great time, forgot all our daytime squabbles, and all got on
> famously for the rest of the evening. If our teacher had asked us to
> dress up as our own ancestors, we might not have had as much variety
> in our costumes, and hence not as much fun, but that would hardly
> have been our fault..
>
> My only gripe with you is that you seem to hate your own
> contemporaries
What an extraordinary interpretation!!!?
The original post is not about hate, and it is not
directed at 'contemporaries' but against the
intolerance which is based on race, not individual behaviour.
I can't support his language, but overall..
it is a very uplifting and positive piece.
> based on nothing more than the way you categorize them for political
> purposes, but think you've discovered the secret of eternal happiness
> among their children.
Oh, Neville.. surely your heart is not so withered
by political whatchamacallit that you can't enjoy that simple
message of innocent pleasure and togetherness?
> Merely because you assume they will all grow up to
> view the world the same way you do.
I understood him to be describing a DIVERSITY which
still produces a HARMONY.
Surely it would only be "viewing the world in the SAME way"
if they were all forced to wear a standard 'true-blue' uniform as
Lance seem to be yearning after!?!?
>
> What I would like to know is where your hate came from in the first
> place.
It seems to be coming largely from your imagination.
To hate people for something like skin colour is racism,
but to hate intolerance or violence is 'righteous anger'.
It is no more unusual to hate racism, than it is to hate,
say, paedophilia.
Some >behaviours< deserve to be hated, although I can't agree
with 'Stereo' that some people do.
> You must have been brought up in a very different neighbourhood
> to what I was. Being happy and capable of having a good time is a
> universal quality of childhood. (They're not like that 24 hours a
day,
> of course, but give them something to enthrall their minds, and they
all
> turn into little angels - at least until they start getting tired and
> grumpy again..
>
> If you think all you have to do is surround yourself with anyone at
all
> who is not Anglo Australian, and universal happiness will prevail for
> the rest of your days,
What an extraordinary distortion of what he wrote!
If I recollect he described himself as 'red-haired'..
sounds like a touch of the Irish to me!
(Perhaps Viking? does anyone but you care which? )
> you could try emigrating to somewhere like New
> York where multiculturalism reigns supreme..
Because he prefers the harmony and peace of Australian
multiculturalism to the violence of say Fijian monocultural
intolerance and racism?
What an incredible suggestion to make to a fellow Australian
who has merely shared the sort of simple pleasure ANY parent
may feel. ("If you hate intolerance, then get out!????" )
With the sort of political spin you have put on his
(largely) charming story you are really lending credence to
the claims previously made about your real purpose!
> Do you really believe you will be allowed to remain
> undisturbed in your mutual trust and goodwill
> towards others just because no one else in the alleyway has the same
> sort of ancestors as yourself?
Where on earth does all that come from?
Surely, as our peaceful multicultural nation demonstrates,
when people grow up together they have LESS fear and hate.
I must join 'Stereo' in celebrating that success, rather than
your 'mono' culturalism. (which seems to have been so disasterous
in Fiji, and in Yugoslavia)
>
> Don't let me wake you from your dream, stereotype.
> I forgive you for calling me a c*nt.
Really! is that any sort of language for this NG!?
It was unecessary for him to use it, and unecessary for
you to repeat it!
It doesn't sound like you have 'forgiven' anything,
it really seems that you resent a description of
ethnic diversity and childlike harmony. Why?
> But I challenge you to test your theory by trying it
> on the parents of those kids you favour on the basis of their ancestry
> rather than their personal qualities as individuals. See if you
receive
> the same level of tolerance and understanding as you get from a crusty
> old Anglo-Australian like me.
Well, many people, viewing their young children, feel that
strong sense of protectiveness, and that can lead to
anger at anything or anyone who threatens it.
So I can understand stereos heat, but yours is more
difficult to understand.
From your reaction to his total post, i think the issue
of 'Who isn't tolerant' may already already settled!
> Try calling their oldies c*nts and see if
> they're as tolerant as I am.
You must be on very weak ground to try and shift it so much.
This language seems both inappropriate and unecessary for
the discussion at hand. Either from him, or from you.
Jacques Chester
Hash: SHA1
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country
> that most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>
> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there
> was absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way
> they dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares. I don't
> mind
> telling you that I was so happy to see black/brown/white/yellow and
> all shades in between existing peacefully that I shed a couple of
> tears. 6'4", 17 stone, red hair, bikie beard, embarrassed to show
> how happy I was. When my nephew said "what's wrong uncle stereo"
> how was I going to explain it to him? How do you tell him you are
> looking at one of the most beautiful scenes it's ever been you good
> fortune to see? How do you explain that you are so happy because
> despite some of the vicious bastards that inhabit the internet and
> parliament house, there are still scenes that make you realise what
> a great country this is and what a great future it has. All I could
> tell him was that I had a headache.
[..]
I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
need to be removed from their psyches like some
wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
When children are put together in "multicultural"
groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
and hatred.
Yeah, there's racism where I come from. No
shortage of it. Yet the children play on, oblivious;
yet the ethnic groups and races and groups mix
and mingle and intermarry and make friends. It's
not commented on, it merely happens.
I have two friends back there, my dear friends
Liana and Carmen. They are true children of the
north: aboriginal, italian, american indian and
"other" blood runs in their veins and stamps their
features and their skin and their hair and their
smiles. One draws Abstudy to supplement the
wage she earns at Big W, and is taking an education
degree at the local Uni. The other is in a traineeship.
Their mother died about two years ago. Their
guardian is a man whose name is simply "Taz".
I'm not sure if that's even his name. He's
another Darwinite archetype: a wiry labourer,
a vietnam vet, with long hair and a strict sense
of discipline. And a mildly racist attitude.
Most of his scorn is reserved for what he calls
"City Abs", referring to Redfern (a favourite
topic of his). He derides them as not being true
aborigines, and tells anecdotes about them, their
ways, and their relationships to "real"
aborigines that may or may not be true.
Yet they live under the one roof in something
approaching harmony. I feel that Taz is wrong
on some aspects (he's quick to attribute
economic downturns to conspiracy, for example),
but he takes care of the girls like they were
his own. Sure, he's a racist by the southern
crusader's definition of racism; but he'd
fight for girls whose apparent aboriginality
is being exploited - in his eyes - by "City
Abs".
I'm also reminded of my high-school, Kormilda
College. Young and starry-eyed I joined the
reconciliation group therein.
Kormilda's one of the nation's leading educator
of aboriginal students. They teach most of the
kids coming out of Arnhem Land. An old, unspoken
agreement between the Catholics and Anglicans
means that aboriginals from the East of the
Stuart Highway are considered Anglican, thus
finding their way to Kormilda.
These kids have their tribal customs, laws,
languages and cultures largely intact. They
take part in tribal ceremonies, go home for
funerals, learn to hunt - in some ways they
have preserved much of what went before them.
Not perfectly, of course. They travel between
the communities via the old Toyota 'cruisers
that seem to populate the NT like some giant
herd. Walking on foot is now "only" for
around the communities and nearby bushland.
They come to Kormilda and English is often
a third, fourth or even fifth language to
them. So much so that the College has an
"Intensive English" stream of education,
really to teach them primary-school English.
They mix, the mingle, they learn things.
Some go on to university, some return home
after year 10, but slowly and surely the
communities reap a crop of educated
youngsters. Kormilda is now seeing the sons
and daughters of its original students being
enrolled. Proud parents come and introduce
their children to the teachers who first
taught them a decade ago. Kormilda has its
dynasties and its celebrities, and it has
its mission to the communities.
The reconciliation group organised the
"First National Youth Reconciliation
Convention", way back in 1998. We got about
400 or so delegates, many of them from
NSW and Victorian schools.
We reflected, afterwards, that many of these
well-to-do students had probably never
actually met an aborigine in any real way
before - perhaps glancing at some poor
half-caste through the window of a Mercedes
at speed, or on television. We laughed at
the very thought. Aboriginals were just
another colour in the crowd, right? Just
part of the landscape with their own special
place in the land. You can almost smell
their spiritual essence when you go out to
the bush, out to Kakadu and Litchfield and
Arnhem Land, to that world that seems empty
and endless and harsh to a western eye.
You look on it and you begin to understand
that these people may as well have sprung
from the rocks during the dreamtime. That
land silently stares you down. You are
subsumed by its infinity and eternity. You
are nothing. It is everything.
You trek back to Darwin and you find a town
that is hick country town and cosmopolitan
city in one. Every colour of the earth
lives there. Go down to the Mindil Markets
and you'll find a city which has caught the
drifters of the world in its net. Smell the
food, know the faces - and realise that
multiculturalism is just a long, much-abused
mutlisyllabic word. This needs no description.
Like the land, it just is. It's just natural.
I went back there in July for a few weeks. I
did nothing and I loved it. I sat on my
friends' balcony and a perfect breeze
sprang up. Below us, the Olympic torch
suddenly appeared to the sound of scattered
Darwin applause, then rapidly disappeared
again. I don't think anyone really cared
that much about what it symbolised or what
it'd been inspired by. It was just a torch,
in the end. Just another day.
I sat there, enjoying this breeze - not
cold, not hot - sipping a glass of cool
water in the shade. I looked at Liana, who
was behind me, and I smiled. In her face,
the people on the street below, in the trees
around us, and in the land stretching forever
just beyond the city limits; there was
the forever of happiness I knew best. It
needs no words, no symbolic gestures, no
speeches or preambles. It just is. And
one day I hope it just will be all over
this endless continent.
Thanks stereo. Sometimes I need to be
reminded that even when in Sydney, I'm
just a Darwin boy at heart.
be well;
JC.
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stereotype
<l.es...@student.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>Stereotype, your post was one of the best posts I have ever read on
>aus.politics. With your permission I will take it to school and read it to
>the kids.
go for it. edited I hope, unless they're old enough to hear it.
>Cheers from
>T.Hurts.
stereotype
wrote:
>stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
>> Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
>> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
>> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
>> most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>>
>> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
>> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
>> hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
>> absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
>> dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares.
>
>How did the True Blue Australian "costume" look?
Every kid there was true-blue regardless of what they were wearing.
Clogs, grass skirts, they were all there. These are the things
true-blues wear :)
Come to think of it, there was nobody there with stubbies (matching
council crack), a blue singlet, blundies & terry towelling hat, or
with a bikini or board shorts, nobody with a floral dress, blue hair,
or hair rollers. Nobody with a drizabone.
Rebecca
Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote in
message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
[snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to respond
to one bit]
>
> I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
> feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
> need to be removed from their psyches like some
> wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
>
> When children are put together in "multicultural"
> groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> and hatred.
>
> Yeah, there's racism where I come from. No
> shortage of it. Yet the children play on, oblivious;
> yet the ethnic groups and races and groups mix
> and mingle and intermarry and make friends. It's
> not commented on, it merely happens.
>
[snip]
In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a polling
booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it returned
the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its accuracy,
but the electorate is certainly one of the trendiest and most PC in the
country. So as you can imagine, there wouldn't be many Anglo-Celtic parents
teaching racism to their children.
Let's sum up so far. The teachers at the local primary and secondary schools
are very pro-multiculturalism, and so are the overwhelming majority of the
parents. So is the Council, the local Member (Lindsay Tanner), and the local
library service, which has a huge range of books, tapes and videos in
languages other than English.
Now, switch to the nearest High School. Its student body is about 50% Asian.
Remember that nearly all the kids there have been through the primary school
multicultural rituals, including "dress-up" days and "international food
fairs".
Although I haven't kept a record of the dates of these incidents, in about
the last eighteen months to two years there have been three separate
occasions known to me (and for all I know more that haven't been reported to
me) on which the local police have been forced to close the school because
of inter-racial brawls involving knives and martial arts weapons. In all
three cases the Asians were involved on one side. The other side involved,
on two occasions, Middle Easterners. In the third case they were kids from
the Balkans.
These weren't just schoolyard fights of the kind that older Aussies might
remember from their own school days. They involved invasions of the school
by adult members of the various ethnic communities involved who had never
attended this school. They were vicious and bloody affairs. Trust me - it
wasn't over-zealous or over-sensitive policing that caused the cops to close
down the school and send both students and teachers home.
It is important to stress that the Anglo kids were not involved in any of
these three incident. A couple of them were, however, involved in a fourth.
One Anglo boy somehow annoyed some of the school's Asian community. One
afternoon he took a shortcut home through an idyllic park. His brother was
with him, and I think another Anglo friend. Dozens of Asians ambushed the
duo/trio as they walked through the beautiful park on their way home. The
Asians had machetes. The Anglo boy who was slowest to realise the
seriousness of the situation was hacked about with machetes. He lost litres
of blood, and spent the next week in hospital.
This is the reality of multiculturalism in inner-suburban Melbourne today.
Remember, our obviously sincere friend Jacques (and I am also sincere in
paying him this tribute) wrote this:
> When children are put together in "multicultural"
> groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> and hatred.
Well, here at the front life isn't *like* that. And please note that the
really vicious stuff wasn't perpetrated or even provoked by the Anglos - or,
as the non-Anglos dismissively call them, with hatred in their voices,
"Skips".
It would be lovely to live in a world where the different races and ethnic
groups were able to bond together in peace and love and harmony and
altruism. It would be lovely to live in a world where "the lion can lie down
with the lamb", which I think is a quote from the Bible. It would be lovely
to be able to live forever in an extended pipe dream.
But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the kids
*have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the unknown". With some of
the machete-wielding Asian students I know that I helped the Kinder staff to
change their nappies from time to time. I know their parents by name. We get
on as OK as any inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and near-murder.
I worry for the future.
stereotype
Duguid) wrote:
>I don't wish to denigrate your sentiments here, stereotype, but we also
>had fancydress balls at school when I was a kid.
you wore a white sheet & a hood?
>
>We dressed up in all sorts of national costumes - as Dutch people with
>stiff bonnets and clogs, Alladdin <Chinese), Eskimos (but only in
>winter), that Arab with a magic carpet (forgotten his name).. We also
>had a great time, forgot all our daytime squabbles, and all got on
>famously for the rest of the evening. If our teacher had asked us to
>dress up as our own ancestors, we might not have had as much variety in
>our costumes, and hence not as much fun, but that would hardly have been
>our fault..
Same with me, if I had to do it when I was 7 I doubt I would have
turned up wearing clogs. I probably would have gone looking like a
good little soldier wearing my grandfather's war medals. The country
has changed so much since I was a kid even, but there were plenty of
fellow dutch/australians, greek/a, yugo/a, croat/a, serbian/a
especially.
>
>My only gripe with you is that you seem to hate your own contemporaries
>based on nothing more than the way you categorize them for political
>purposes, but think you've discovered the secret of eternal happiness
>among their children. Merely because you assume they will all grow up to
>view the world the same way you do.
I assume nothing of the sort. I assume they will grow up in a totally
different (and much improved) Australia than I did, I''m not romantic
enough to assume it will be free from hate. Both Hitler and Mandela
have been consumed by hatred at some time in their life. One was
subjective then objective, the other was subjective, I'll leave it to
you to decide which.
>
>What I would like to know is where your hate came from in the first
>place. You must have been brought up in a very different neighbourhood
>to what I was. Being happy and capable of having a good time is a
>universal quality of childhood. (They're not like that 24 hours a day,
>of course, but give them something to enthrall their minds, and they all
>turn into little angels - at least until they start getting tired and
>grumpy again..
I grew up in outer western sydney, it was an extremely tough and poor
neighbourhood but my memories are happy. I spent my childhood consumed
by cricket, tennis, rugby league and soccer, so I wasn't as poor as I
could have been. It was completely free of hate by me or directed at
me. When I was 15 I called a greek kid named victor a wog. I was
joking (being a wog myself) but he went berserk, even though I was
twice his size. I apologised to him many times, he never landed a blow
but he kept coming at me crying and swinging with rage. It made me
realise a few things about myself and others and how people want to be
treated.
There was a hierarchy depending on sporting prowess which is one thing
that hasn't much changed since I was a kid. I watch my nephew playing
soccer and that is still evident. The kid that scores all the goals is
the king. They can't help themselves, that's the way kids are.
So where did my subjective hate come from? It was given to me by my
grandfather and my father. My grandfather worked as a psychiatric
nurse for 40 years when he got home from New Guinea. He experienced
first hand what war does to people, then spent 40 years looking after
many of those who were damaged by it. He fought in a war that was
started by objective hate. His life and those of plenty of his
comrades were saved more than once by new guinea natives. He had a
hatred of war and the sort of hate that starts them. His father died
in France in 1916 along with one of his brothers.
My father is the same. He was 9 when ww2 started. He left school when
he was 11, his father was killed in France in 1942. There was no
option but to leave school and do whatever he could to get food. He
would grab the still burning coals from under the trains in Alkmaar
(Holland) that were used to transport Jews from Holland to the
concentration camps (this was to take the coal home to keep the family
warm). More than once when he was scrounging under the trains for coal
that wasn't dead he would hear people from inside the trains telling
him and his friends to go away before the guards caught them and shot
them. The trains were full of people being treated like cattle to be
taken off to be gassed. His subjective hate comes from those
incidents, the people that killed his father, that caused him to lose
an education, that killed 8 of his 13 brothers and sisters due to
hunger, etc. All that was caused by subjective hate.
>
>If you think all you have to do is surround yourself with anyone at all
>who is not Anglo Australian, and universal happiness will prevail for
>the rest of your days, you could try emigrating to somewhere like New
>York where multiculturalism reigns supreme..
No, I don't assume that, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post
wondered why 6-7 year old kids grow up to hate subjectively. I could
put forward a few theories, might even do so one day. I don;t think
any of them are biological, although it might have something to do
with puberty and testosterone which changes kids.
>Do you really believe you
>will be allowed to remain undisturbed in your mutual trust and goodwill
>towards others just because no one else in the alleyway has the same
>sort of ancestors as yourself?
No. Not with people like you around.
>
>Don't let me wake you from your dream, stereotype. I forgive you for
>calling me a cunt. But I challenge you to test your theory by trying it
>on the parents of those kids you favour on the basis of their ancestry
>rather than their personal qualities as individuals. See if you receive
>the same level of tolerance and understanding as you get from a crusty
>old Anglo-Australian like me. Try calling their oldies cunts and see if
>they're as tolerant as I am.
I have no reason to. I have plenty of reason to call you that. I'll
probably do it again.
stereotype
wrote:
>In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
>multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a polling
>booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it returned
>the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
>report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its accuracy,
Carlton North? It was the highest I think.
Mine was Turner Public School (ACT). I think it was 3rd highest Yes
vote. Most of the voters are white/middle class.
Andrew D
+Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
+(aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
+many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
+most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
+These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
+believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
+hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
+absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
+dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares. I don't mind
+telling you that I was so happy to see black/brown/white/yellow and
+all shades in between existing peacefully that I shed a couple of
+tears. 6'4", 17 stone, red hair, bikie beard, embarrassed to show how
+happy I was. When my nephew said "what's wrong uncle stereo" how was I
+going to explain it to him? How do you tell him you are looking at one
+of the most beautiful scenes it's ever been you good fortune to see?
+How do you explain that you are so happy because despite some of the
+vicious bastards that inhabit the internet and parliament house, there
+are still scenes that make you realise what a great country this is
+and what a great future it has. All I could tell him was that I had a
+headache.
It may have proved more beneficial to tell him the truth without
necessarily being specific about the negatives. Just tell him that you are
so damned happy to see all those happy kids playing together and not
arguing or fighting.
[snip]
+Here's hoping that the majority of these kids grow up free of hate and
+free from parents like some of you vicious bastards.
You see stereo, there's the problem - you, like most other adults, harbor
hatred towards your fellow man - probably because you know, or think you
know, something about them.
+I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Hating is an art. Like
+any art, its mastery takes practice and discipline, and some of you
+people are masters of hate just like Vermeer, Van Gogh and Rembrandt
+were master painters.
I never did think Van Gogh was much of a painter.
+I freely admit that by typing this I am myself expressing hate, and I
+freely admit I hate some of you bastards with a passion. But my hate
+is objective (designed to get rid of subjective hate),
Your hate is "better" than other people's hate?
+ whereas yours
+is subjective which stops some of you (and your children) from
+allowing others to enjoy their life to the full.
I understand where you're coming from. Like you I spend much of my time
fighting bigotry and hatred and it takes its toll. In my so far failed
attempts to get the anti-family ideologues in Canberra to drop their
opposition to traditional families and to treat all families alike, I too
have managed to reach a level of disgust with my fellow humans than I'd
ever thought possible. There was a time when I used to give people the
benefit of the doubt and hope that in time they would see the light - but
not anymore.
Today I am often spiteful and perhaps even hurtful to people who strongly
oppose the most sensible parts of my argument. Whilst I still manage a
sense of humour when dealing with some people (Che for example) I find it
hard to keep a level head when dealing with people who are quick to attach
labels to me, but slow to listen to what I'm saying. Unfortunately, such
people do exist and it often seems the only way to deal with them is to
give back what they themselves dish out. However, I am bouyed by the fact
that in the main, people will listen to a common sense argument and
acknowledge those parts they feel have merit whilst possibly disagreeing
on proposed solutions to a problem. I can appreciate them and their views
despite the fact I may disagree with them I am happy to debate them till
the cows come home without resorting to vilification. I cannot however
abide people who quickly resort to slandererous expletives to describe
anyone with an opposing view. With that in mind, I've snipped your last
paragraph.
Andy D.
conq...@wantree.com.au
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
stereotype
wrote:
>In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
Don't. All this is caused by prejudice, you should worry about
removing the prejudice. You are right to worry about the future if the
society you live in refuses to remove all forms of discrimination. You
can't have a peaceful multicultural society until you remove
deliberate discrimination. Lebanese, Tongan, Samoan, and Asian
Australians form gangs because they are racially, religously and
economically oppressed by this society.
The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group of
people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
another. The same happened in Rwanda. The same happens all over the
world on a regular basis.
You seek to discriminate against these people further by
simplistically describing incidents they are involved in and blaming
them. You people rail against ethnic ghettos as if they were
deliberately created by these people themselves. These ghettos were
caused by racial and economic discrimination, not because a group of
people decided to take over a suburb and start a gang war.
You highlight the bad and ignore the good. Cabramatta has the best
restaurant district in Australia, only matched by Carlton and Richmond
in Melbourne. They have a drug problem too. These people don't choose
to become drug dealers as a career path. When this society stops
deliberately discriminating against them economically, when they are
able to get the same steady jobs you are able to get, when they work
hard, go to university and become leaders and when another generation
has passed, there will still be a drug problem. But the same people
won't be causing the same problems.
There might be another group, but there doesn't have to be. If
discrimination on religious and racial grounds is outlawed, and I mean
seriously, not just on a piece of paper, if people who discriminate
are charged and heavily penalised, made to realise that discrimination
can be both deliberate and unintentional, if the penalties for
discrimination were as high as drug dealing (it causes just as many
problems, so why not?), then you could have a peaceful Australia.
I've posted this before and Neville Duguid tried to tell me that
discrimination was a part of the human condition, that there are
ingroups and outgroups and that's the way it is. That's NOT the way it
is. It is only like that because it is perpetuated deliberately by
those who want cheap labour and those who own the media.
There will always be rich and poor. They don't always have to be the
same people. This is where Nev tells us about all those poor anglo
people. And he's right, there are plenty. But I challenge you to look
at the income statistics for Anglo-Australians vs Lebanese-
Australians on a population level. They do exist. Then maybe you'd
stop blaming people, do something about discrimination, stop wondering
why there are gangs, and we'd go some way towards getting rid of the
problem.
brian
[snip]
> calling me a cunt. But I challenge you to test your theory by trying it
> on the parents of those kids you favour on the basis of their ancestry
> rather than their personal qualities as individuals. See if you receive
> the same level of tolerance and understanding as you get from a crusty
> old Anglo-Australian like me. Try calling their oldies cunts and see if
> they're as tolerant as I am.
>
> stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > Today I had feelings of pride from living in such a great country.
> > Then I was reminded of some of you low-life cunts and realised there
> > is still a lot of hate to be gotten rid of. Hate against homosexuals,
> > lesbians, other cultures, there is still plenty of it out there. You
> > can't destroy the beauty in your own country. You might be trying
> > hard, but you're fighting a losing battle. There are too many people
> > out there who know how lucky their kids are to be living in such a
> > beautiful country. You dinosaurs are fighting a losing battle.
Nev, he didn't call you a cunt. Unless of course you consider yourself
to be a "low-life cunt"?
Oh and BTW, he made it fairly clear he was of Dutch ancestry. Last time
I thought about such things I believe the Dutch aren't Anglo-Saxon.
--
"It is the knowledge of the mechanics of war, not of the
principles of strategy, that distinguishes a good leader
from a bad [one]."
Archibald Wavell, Generals and Generalship
stereotype
wrote:
>+Here's hoping that the majority of these kids grow up free of hate and
>+free from parents like some of you vicious bastards.
>
>You see stereo, there's the problem - you, like most other adults, harbor
>hatred towards your fellow man - probably because you know, or think you
>know, something about them.
The problem with you is you don't know the difference. You think all
hate is the same. There are very few (if any) individuals that can
exist without some form of hatred inside them. Mother Theresa,
Florence Nightingale, I don't know their life stories, but they are
two people I assume were free of hate. There aren't many like them. As
I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, even Mandela hated people,
firstly subjectively then objectively.
>
>+I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Hating is an art. Like
>+any art, its mastery takes practice and discipline, and some of you
>+people are masters of hate just like Vermeer, Van Gogh and Rembrandt
>+were master painters.
>
>I never did think Van Gogh was much of a painter.
Neither did I. Until I went to the rijksmuseum and the van gogh museum
and stood a few feet away. There is a self-portrait of Rembrandt at
age 22 in the RM, you can never appreciate it until you stand right in
front of it. The colours and the brush strokes he used to paint his
own hair cannot be replicated by any printing technique. I've seen it
a hundred times in books and never looked twice. It just looked like a
normal boring self-portrait. Then I saw the actual painting. van Gogh
is the same. It's a pity few Australians get to see their work outside
of books.
>
>
>+I freely admit that by typing this I am myself expressing hate, and I
>+freely admit I hate some of you bastards with a passion. But my hate
>+is objective (designed to get rid of subjective hate),
>
>Your hate is "better" than other people's hate?
I believe so. Subjective hate is different than objective. ie. a
person who hates those who hate homosexuals, or a person who hates
racists, is an objective hater. The homophobic and the racist are
subjective haters, they hate people and seek to make their lives worse
through prejudice. Objective haters hate homophobics and racists, and
seek to make the lives of those they hate better.
I have admitted there are people I hate, and I think it's objective.
Let's look at you. I think you hate the Labor Party and feminists
because you feel they deliberately disciminate against you and your
family (and others). I think your hate is objective. You seek to make
the lives of families better, you haven't as yet sought to
deliberately make the lives of others worse. Because it's an economic
argument, it is complicated, because any policy which makes your life
better could conceivably make someone else's life worse. That is the
problem I have. But I don't hate you by any means. My post was
directed at those who hate people because of who they are inside. They
hate people because of their sexuality, their religion, their skin
colour, where they are from, whatever. Yes, I hate people who hate,
and I will never believe that my hate is just as bad as theirs.
>
>+ whereas yours
>+is subjective which stops some of you (and your children) from
>+allowing others to enjoy their life to the full.
>
>I understand where you're coming from. Like you I spend much of my time
>fighting bigotry and hatred and it takes its toll. In my so far failed
>attempts to get the anti-family ideologues in Canberra to drop their
>opposition to traditional families and to treat all families alike, I too
>have managed to reach a level of disgust with my fellow humans than I'd
>ever thought possible. There was a time when I used to give people the
>benefit of the doubt and hope that in time they would see the light - but
>not anymore.
OK, here you admit you hate others. I think it's misguided, because
your hate is directed at those who are trying to make the lives of
others better. I agree there are some women out there who hate men
just because they are men, that is the worst form of hatred, just like
there are some men on here who hate women, or some women, because of
who they are.
>With that in mind, I've snipped your last
>paragraph.
As I have snipped yours because it is garbage, but i'll not accuse you
of subjective hate.
Lance Baker
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:11:52 +0800, "Lance Baker" <la...@norcom.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> >news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> >
>
> Every kid there was true-blue regardless of what they were wearing.
>
> Clogs, grass skirts, they were all there. These are the things
> true-blues wear :)
>
> Come to think of it, there was nobody there with stubbies (matching
> council crack), a blue singlet, blundies & terry towelling hat, or
> with a bikini or board shorts, nobody with a floral dress, blue hair,
> or hair rollers. Nobody with a drizabone.
You poor disillusioned soul.
stereotype
wrote:
someone give you a humour bypass? i was kidding dickhead.
Ned Latham
>
> Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
> most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>
> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> hate.
Well, I suppose your heart's in the right place, but where the hell's
your head? It's been like that all along. It was like that in Darwin
when I went there as a child in 1953, and that's without the heavy-
handed indoctrination that kids get these days.
*And* I bet Darwin was a bloody sight more mixed than your nephew's
school is.
----snip----
> Today I had feelings of pride from living in such a great country.
Bit late, Stereo. You and all of us would have been better served if
you'd had enough knowkedge of, and pride in, Australia to resist the
bullshit that the racists, sexists, homophiles and multiculturalists
disseminate.
----snip----
--
Ned ++++++ Democracy means "the people rule".
Forget the republic: fight for the power of assent.
To reply, cut out my nose and make the met a net.
brian
>
> Dan Wakefield <danwak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8mdgmg$be$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <96535833...@cube.norcom.net.au>,
> > > stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > > (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> > > > many of these kids have at least one parent from another country
> > that
> > > > most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
> > > >
> > > > These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> > > > believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> > > > absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
> > > > dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares.
> > >
> > > How did the True Blue Australian "costume" look?
> >
> > I thought the costumes worn by convicts, soldiers,
> > merchants and chinese goldworkers were quite diverse?
> >
> > Surely his point was that ALL of the children were
> > true-blue little Aussies!
> >
> > None of us wear the animal skins of the indigenous people,
> > our immigrant predecessors wore their various national
> > dress which he has described very nicely, and we now all wear
> > standard Western dress (or most of us do anyway) which
> > still bears a resemblence to the various trousers and
> > shirts and dresses from England and Ireland and Wales
> > and Greece and Italy, and China and Vietnam.
> >
> > Why do you need to inject a note of dissension, even resentment,
> > into such a charming story?
>
> I didn't.
> I asked a simple question - nothing more, nothing less.
With of couse your usual ulterior motivation, "Lance". Your
participation in any discussion is never "simple".
Agora
"Neville Duguid" <nevi...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:1eetcqq.r4...@cpe-203-45-152-13.qld.bigpond.net.au...
Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
think of it.
Agora
Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do they
have?
Che Guava
Agora wrote:
> "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
>
> Just 1 question.
You seem to have the numeracy problems common in dumb as pigshit
redneck racist Nazi bigots. :-) There are THREE questions here.. B^D
admittedly, taken together they don't amount to ONE decent question..
but if you take your socks off you can probably confirm the tally:
> What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do they
> have?
This was tested with the Hansonite party. They were the most monumental
cockup the nation has seen since idiot generals sent brave men to slaughter in
the
trenches in WWI . Still they got more media coverage than a cult masquerading
as a genuine party deserved.. AND GOT THEIR ARSES KICKED AT THE
POLLS. They are now what is technically termed a Spent Force, relegated,
like your heroes Goebbles and Hitler, to THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.
(Well, Howard does play footsie with the remnant, but he is just trying
to play them as suckers again (they have that track record! B^p ) )
To cut a long story short, despite some initial succeses, once their policies
were
analysed in some detail they were RESOUNDINGLY REJECTED by the Australian
people in favour of the parties which support multiculturalism and together
represent
around 90% of the Australian people.
Of course, facts mean nothing to you lunar right loonies.. so let me put it in
easy
to remember musical form:
"Ding Dong the Bitch is dead.. the Wicked Bitch, the mean ol Bitch..
Ding Dong the Wicked BITCH IS DEAD!!!!!!!!! " B^D
Sing along little munchkins... ;-)
Che
------
BTW, for the benefit of the youngins, I don't casually label
just ANYONE a redneck...bigot .. Agora is known for his single
(narrow) minded pursuit of redneck racist nazi bigotry. B^)
Che Guava
Agora wrote:
> Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> think of it.
You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
stupid non sequitur....
So who will win the hearts and minds of the One Nation remnant?
As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real Nazi's, are wooing the
fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to the bitter hard core
racists and bigots.. but in this country they will always be a sideshow.
The million who once made up One Nation are a much less extreme
and more mottley crew.
They include people who are concerned about issues like globalization,
the GST and sale of telstra... the gutting of rural community services, the
death of towns.. many of these will drift back into mainstream politics..
probably via support for independents.
The nats will try and win back those they see as their 'natural constituency'
(They deserve each other ;-)
Howard will wear his akubra and pull stunts like the IVF posturing to
try and ginger some support for the rural marginals he is going to lose
because
of telstra, the GST, petrol and interest rates...
The ALP, as Bracks has shown will attract a lot of the realistic dissaffected
who have learnt they just have to become more volatile voters, squeaky wheels,
if they want oiling.
But the ALP never bent on issues like Multiculti.. they stayed firm right
throughout the Hanson push, when Johhnnie wavered and looked to the polls!
B^p
True he came back to endorse M/C once he sussed which way the wind was
blowing, but some of those hardcore racists will overlook hypocrisy..
because lets face it.. their whole philosophy is BUILT on it! B^p
I just think he, and the PHONie hard core, are mistaken if they
overestimate the latent racism in the electorate. As I advised
Mackay two years ago, lose the racism, Australians hate that shit..
If you become a genuine party of decency and political change..
you will go from strength to strength.. But they didn't..
and the Australian people discarded them.
So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm praise
of his Leader, ....because praise from Nazi's like Agora is enough to make
any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
brian
>
> "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
>
> democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do they
> have?
How would they reject it, Agora?
Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's lounge
room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply don't
give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they see
fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they like
being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
to.
Aldis Ozols
news:wnatives-040...@reggae-16-75.nv.iinet.net.au...
> In article <sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com>, stereotype
> <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> +I freely admit that by typing this I am myself
> + of you bastards with a passion. But my hate
> +is objective (designed to get rid of subjective hate),
>
> Your hate is "better" than other people's hate?
LOL! Classic.
He really is a very hate-filled person.
I hate people like that.
--
How to Lobby Politicians
http://www.zeta.org.au/~aldis/lobby.html
"Reality is whatever doesn't go away after you stop believing in it."
-- Philip K. Dick
Ian & Lynn
live........................to me, it's fascinating. Please, stereotype,
don't tar us all with the same brush..........
Lynn
Seppo Renfors
Rebecca wrote:
>
> Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote in
> message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
>
> [snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to respond
> to one bit]
>
[..]
THAT has nothing to do with "multiculturalism", it is a convenient peg
to hang a bigoted hat on. What you see is not particularly race
related. Gangs and gang warfare exists for different reasons.
Elizabeth was know for many gangs, rival gangs and they were manly
poms, but fighting each other.
The picture you attempt to paint with your use of the term PC and
"ethnic gangs" etc are to further division, that is then a self
perpetuation thing. There is "PC" of many kinds, that of the likes of
Neville & Co and that "Anglo PC's" you refer to. It is merely a matter
of view point.
What you are doing here is contributing to the continuation of trouble
as you are directly pointing a finger at one thing, and one thing ONLY
-RACE! Race hatred and racism is weird in the sense than many of the
people who are very racists, have friends among the race they hate.
They have no problems with their friends of any particular race, but
these get excluded somehow from the target group "THEY" - it is always
a "they" or "them" -"they" don't have names, they only have a colour,
culture or ethnic origin.
It is this unreasonableness that causes troubles- like you, who wiped
asian babies bottoms and yet seem to hate "them" by pointing fingers
at their race, citing THIS as the cause of the problems. It really is
irrelevant WHO, or what colour, people are if they cause problems.
That has to be eliminated. DO you HONESTLY think that it is their skin
colour that causes them to misbehave? What caused the gangs in
Elisabeth? There was no skin colour or ethnic difference there, but
they did fight, using bike chains, broken bottles etc.
It isn't a phenomenon isolated to either Melbourne or Sydney. These
are problems in every major city in the world, regardless of colour or
mix of ethnicity or even lack thereof. You are quite wrong to point to
peoples skin colour!!
> Remember, our obviously sincere friend Jacques (and I am also sincere in
> paying him this tribute) wrote this:
>
> > When children are put together in "multicultural"
> > groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> > scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> > mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> > unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> > and hatred.
>
> Well, here at the front life isn't *like* that. And please note that the
> really vicious stuff wasn't perpetrated or even provoked by the Anglos - or,
> as the non-Anglos dismissively call them, with hatred in their voices,
> "Skips".
Hmmm.... so I take it you are actually part of one of these
"non-Anglos" gangs, are you, seeing as you speak so damned
authoritatively of "hatred in their voices" and it being
"dismissively". That is why you KNOW the "Anglos" did nothing at all,
eh? May I suggest to you that it is your own dislikes of "them" that
causes you to believe that stuff. The point being that you EXPECT it
and therefor believe it to be true no matter how they said it, or even
what they actually said.
> It would be lovely to live in a world where the different races and ethnic
> groups were able to bond together in peace and love and harmony and
> altruism. It would be lovely to live in a world where "the lion can lie down
> with the lamb", which I think is a quote from the Bible. It would be lovely
> to be able to live forever in an extended pipe dream.
There is a problem right there, you believing a "lion" and "lamb"
situation exists. A bad analogy to use in fact - demonstrates the
fears within you yourself. However if it be peace you want SHOW you
want peace not war. The easiest start you can make there is to stop
pointing at peoples skin colour, their ethnicity, their "culture"
which is a disguised way of saying "race" by the PC of your variety.
>
> But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the kids
> *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the unknown". With some of
> the machete-wielding Asian students I know that I helped the Kinder staff to
> change their nappies from time to time. I know their parents by name. We get
> on as OK as any inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and near-murder.
Quite frankly that doesn't hold true if analysed from what you have
stated here. You said;
"electorate is certainly one of the trendiest and most PC in the
country. So as you can imagine, there wouldn't be many Anglo-Celtic
parents teaching racism to their children."
Now, having regard for YOUR "PC" language, being familiar with it now,
then you suggest it is predominantly a white area, with only a small
proportion of "foreigners". This is so, because only WHITE people of
long standing in Australia can be "PC", in YOUR variety of "PC"
language.
You equate a high "YES" vote in the republican referendum to mean
these people are "PC" and therefor supporters of "multiculturalism"...
and they cannot belong to your mob, as YOUR side is staunchly
Monarchist... and that is WHY you say "there wouldn't be many
Anglo-Celtic parents teaching racism" NOTE: this also confirms my
statement above that only WHITE people (or in your case specifically
"Anglo") can be "PC".
That then leaves ALL those who did NOT vote "YES", as the people who
DO teach "racism" to their kids. You have totally dismissed all the
people that are NON-ANGLO in your considerations totally as if they
don't count!! Quite frankly the thought process you have portrayed
here is quite loony!
Racism generates another form of "racism" ( - a hate of racists), and
it is unlikely that every NON-ANGLO is a non racist anyway. I'm sure
that gang related incidents are not racist at all - it is merely
projected as such by you. Class division has a lot to do with it -
lack of opportunities - lack of things to do - drugs etc etc. They
probably aren't even GANGS in the proper sense of the word!
Neither is it true that there are no "Anglo" gangs in Melbourne - or
probably even in your local area. Hell they get rather carried away at
times with bombs and shootings, in fact some of them have had a bit of
a yike with another gang in Adelaide, and I mean GANG on the proper
sense. It resulted in a couple of deaths. You know what, the murderers
will get away with it too, as the gang members from both sides have
clammed up and are saying nothing! It is quite bigoted to point
fingers at ethnic groups and ignore the so called "anglo" gangs
(really that includes anyone indiscernible from an "anglo")
> I worry for the future.
So you should - it starts with YOU fo fix the problems, not the other
person. Fight against bigotry - the REAL bigotry in the work places -
the entertainment venues - the schools - the language used etc. In the
UK you can get a jail term for racist remarks made to another person -
they don't even have to be particularly nasty! Perhaps that is
something you could call for?
Jacques Chester
Hash: SHA1
Rebecca <reb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:zavi5.24327$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote
> in message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
>
> [snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to
> respond to one bit]
Thankyou.
> > I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
> > feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
> > need to be removed from their psyches like some
> > wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
[..]
> But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the
> kids *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the
> unknown". With some of the machete-wielding Asian students I know
> that I helped the Kinder staff to change their nappies from time to
> time. I know their parents by name. We get on as OK as any
> inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and
> near-murder.
Rebecca;
Where I come from we have all the colours
of the world - we have our violence. Some
of it is on race lines. But it's not so
harsh. I'm beginning to think of gangs as
a consequence of large cities. They've
existed for as long as the city has: Roman
senators hired gangs, gangs in Los Angeles
of racially similar makeup fight over
colours and streets (and drugs) ...
I just don't think you can pin gangs to one
thing and say "Aha! That is Why It Is So!".
To do so - bluntly - is sloppy thinking.
Gangs are complex phenomena with many
contributing factors. Some of this may be
(as I suspect) to do with the sheer number of
people in a city, raising the number of
"troublemakers". Some of it will do with the
group identities and hatreds inherited by
ethnicity. A lot of it will be because of
that troublesome chemical testosterone.
But none of it will be single-cause.
Racism is what I was talking about. I said
that racism in children is not natural. I
said it is fostered by parents and by
friends. My father was a weekend redneck -
he did it because he enjoyed stirring shit.
Shit stirrers get satisfaction when somebody
"bights"; and "the left" bights most
furiously and most often. So he would adopt
a kind of right-wingness which was fairly
hard in content but soft in wording. He
was joking.
As a young boy I took a lot if it at face
value. I sincerely believed the "foreign
scum" were foreign scum; that aboriginals
really had nobody to blame but themselves,
and so forth. For a few years, my father
then spent most of his time overseas on
contract work.
The turning point for me was when my
father defended some ethnicity against a
comment I made. I had made this comment in
the same vein as he had once done. Over the
next few days, I began to feel that he'd
realised that he'd made an impression - that
I had been too young to realise that he
had made his comments in dubious jest. And
now he was trying to undo it. My father
poses as a "new right" man - but at heart,
he is as concerned as anyone.
He's a technician. He has the technician's
sense of Working Properly and Broken. I
read his writing, his letters from faraway
countries and to editors; I sense he looks
on the world as Broken. He wants to reach
out and make it Work Properly. He never
will. He's too timid, and he thinks he is
too old. I admire him, but in many ways I
do not wish to become much of what he is.
As Salman Rushdie said, "You do not realise
how much like your father you are, until you
hear his voice speaking through your blood".
Children will pick up on their parent's
beliefs.
They will also pick up on friend's beliefs.
At Kormilda there was a group of mildly
right-wing students. Over time they amplified
each other until they were far further to
"the right" then when they had begun. In
some sense, they had formed a gang.
Racism does not spring from inborn memory.
It is not genetically encoded to hate or
to weild a machete - that an "Anglo" and
an "Asian" hate each other was not coded into
them when the great migration of human kind
began. It is a structure in their heads,
built atop a group instinct and amplified
with irrational thought. The most powerful
source of those structures will *always* be
your friends and your family.
Racism is an intergenerational disease. It
spreads from mind to mind. I hope it dies
one day.
> I worry for the future.
One day, I hope, it just will be.
be well;
JC.
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Che Guava
brian <bria...@dragon.net.au> wrote:
> Agora wrote:
> >
> > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The
kids....
> >
> > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic
rights do they
> > have?
>
> How would they reject it, Agora?
>
> Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's
lounge
> room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
Yes yes yes yes yes and YES!!!! B^D
Bug them all! Gatecrash their private lives! BRING THEM ALL INTO THE
REALM OF MY TALIBAN!
>
> Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply
don't
> give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they
see
> fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they
like
> being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> to.
Bah! I'm with Seppo on this one. So we're racists? THAT'S OUR TALIBAN
GIVEN RIGHT!
>
> --
> "It is the knowledge of the mechanics of war, not of the
> principles of strategy, that distinguishes a good leader
> from a bad [one]."
> Archibald Wavell, Generals and
Generalship
>
--
Stupid is as stupid does.
And *I* do.
Che Guava
Rebecca
Ours isn't mostly white/middle class. There are lots of Third World migrants
owing to a huge stock of public housing. There are also lots of elderly
southern Europeans. A few old working class Anglo-Celts born and bred in the
area. The remainder are largely people who can afford to pay ridiculous
prices for teeny little worker's' cottages.
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:qs0lossenb5531p02...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:39:55 +1000, "Rebecca" <reb...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
> >multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a
polling
> >booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it
returned
> >the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
> >report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its
accuracy,
>
Sean
excuse to get mad enough to kill each other.
ie Slavery - primarily driven by greed not by default hatred for the slaves
race.
ie Territorial or resource disputes - greed and jealousy between have and
have-nots
Also when time passes after these situations the hatred is then bred into
children by parents and govt's but the source is not some spine tingling
repulsion that one gene has for another - its the family unit that is
responsible
sorry if im rambling
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:d8ukos0u2gk5vrd30...@4ax.com...
Rebecca
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> news:zavi5.24327$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > in message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > [snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to
> > respond to one bit]
>
>
> > > I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
> > > feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
> > > need to be removed from their psyches like some
> > > wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
> > But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the
> > kids *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the
> > unknown". With some of the machete-wielding Asian students I know
> > that I helped the Kinder staff to change their nappies from time to
> > time. I know their parents by name. We get on as OK as any
> > inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> > multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and
> > near-murder.
>
>
> Where I come from we have all the colours
> of the world - we have our violence. Some
> of it is on race lines. But it's not so
> harsh. I'm beginning to think of gangs as
> a consequence of large cities. They've
> existed for as long as the city has: Roman
> senators hired gangs, gangs in Los Angeles
> of racially similar makeup fight over
> colours and streets (and drugs) ...
Your comments make sense. Gangs exist in country towns, but they're nowhere
near as serious a problem as they are in cities.
>
> I just don't think you can pin gangs to one
> thing and say "Aha! That is Why It Is So!".
> To do so - bluntly - is sloppy thinking.
> Gangs are complex phenomena with many
> contributing factors. Some of this may be
> (as I suspect) to do with the sheer number of
> people in a city, raising the number of
> "troublemakers". Some of it will do with the
> group identities and hatreds inherited by
> ethnicity. A lot of it will be because of
> that troublesome chemical testosterone.
> But none of it will be single-cause.
I don't think I even tried to explain gangs. I agree that there will
obviously be many factors involved in the formation of gangs - including
ethnic/racial gangs. But all I was trying to do was to show that in an area
where, if anywhere, the multicultural programs should or could have worked,
we have some of the worst racial problems you could imagine. (I mean ...
doezens of machete-wielding young thugs invading our schools ... teachers
locking themselves in staff rooms ... innocent kids sent home by the police
for their own protection ... could it really get *much* worse anywhere in
contemporary Australia?)
Just to put this in context, Stereotype gave us a heart-warming story of a
multicultural ceremony at a school that he has been to - once. I've been to
these festivals, over and over again, for years. They bring a lump to the
collective throat of the smug PC people. But what is *really* happening in
our community is inter-ethnic brawling. Heck, just last week one of our
local councillors had his (or her - I don't want to name names) house
trashed by a Lebanese gang infuriated because they hadn't been invited to a
party organised by this councillor's son/daughter.
>
> Racism is what I was talking about. I said
> that racism in children is not natural. I
> said it is fostered by parents and by
> friends. My father was a weekend redneck -
> he did it because he enjoyed stirring shit.
> Shit stirrers get satisfaction when somebody
> "bights"; and "the left" bights most
> furiously and most often. So he would adopt
> a kind of right-wingness which was fairly
> hard in content but soft in wording. He
> was joking.
>
> As a young boy I took a lot if it at face
> value. I sincerely believed the "foreign
> scum" were foreign scum; that aboriginals
> really had nobody to blame but themselves,
> and so forth. For a few years, my father
> then spent most of his time overseas on
> contract work.
>
Around here the Anglos aren't the ones doing the hating. Or forming the
gangs. The Anglo kids are passive and cowed and disorganised and genuinely
bewildered by the hate that is directed toward them. In the examples I gave
in the post to which you are responding I mentioned one Anglo kid who was
ambushed on his way home and hospitalised in consequence. What did the other
Anglo kids do? Basically, they shrugged their shoulders.
>
> Racism is an intergenerational disease. It
> spreads from mind to mind. I hope it dies
> one day.
I really don't know what "racism" means. Everyone uses the term to denote
different things.
I tend to use the word in a way that I think is positive, meaning - fairly
basically - pride in one's race. This is what a lot of people advocate in
relation to Aborigines: build up their pride and self-esteem, and that might
help to some degree with some of their problems. A demoralised, self-hating
people is much more likely to produce petrol-sniffing kids.
You probably mean something like hatred based on racial differences. I don't
advocate that. I think all racial or ethnic groups should be proud of their
culture and ancestry. I don't think people can be healthy if they aren't
proud in this way. But that doesn't imply that they should put other people
down - or attack them with machetes!
>
>
> > I worry for the future.
>
> One day, I hope, it just will be.
I think you meant something here that I don't quite comprehend. When I said
I worry for the future I had in mind the escalating racially-based violence
in this part of our word. Bear in mind that it is *not* instigated by the
Anglo-Celts. Anything but! The Anglos only ever feature as victims.
But the trouble is that there is no "solution" that hasn't already been
tried - and already failed.
The Anglos here have bent over backwards to welcome the newcomers. There is
absolutely no "institutionalised racism" directed against them. If anything,
it works in the opposite direction. For instance, in the Victorian education
system it is easier for kids of NESB background to get a high HSC score,
because scores in foreign languages are adjusted upwards. So the courses at
Melbourne Uni that are in high demand have disproportionate numbers of Asian
students, simply because it is institutionally easier for them to get a high
HSC result.
Despite what "stereotype" has written elsewhere, it is simply untrue that
"Lebanese, Tongan, Samoan, and Asian Australians form gangs because they are
racially, religously and economically oppressed by this society" - or at
least it is totally untrue in this part of Australia. If anything, the
opposite is the case.
So how do we even attempt to stop the *negative* racism which, as I have
said, is *not* coming from Anglo-Celts? Or is the genie now out of the
bottle?
>
> be well;
>
You too, Jacques. You and I are probably doomed to disagree simply because
our life experiences are very different, but I respect your sincerity and
decency.
Che Guava
I like the 'warts and all' portrait of your father
which still remains sympathetic.
There are some points about contemporary Mob
behaviour, intolerance and prejudice which need
to be made though.. apologies in advance for
the intersecting trajectories ;-)
Jacques Chester wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rebecca <reb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:zavi5.24327$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote
> > in message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > [snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to
> > respond to one bit]
>
> Thankyou.
>
> > > I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
> > > feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
> > > need to be removed from their psyches like some
> > > wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
> [..]
> > But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the
> > kids *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the
> > unknown". With some of the machete-wielding Asian students I know
> > that I helped the Kinder staff to change their nappies from time to
> > time. I know their parents by name. We get on as OK as any
> > inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> > multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and
> > near-murder.
>
> Rebecca;
>
> Where I come from we have all the colours
> of the world - we have our violence. Some
> of it is on race lines. But it's not so
> harsh. I'm beginning to think of gangs as
> a consequence of large cities. They've
> existed for as long as the city has: Roman
> senators hired gangs, gangs in Los Angeles
> of racially similar makeup fight over
> colours and streets (and drugs) ...
>
> I just don't think you can pin gangs to one
> thing and say "Aha! That is Why It Is So!".
> To do so - bluntly - is sloppy thinking.
Ah, that's just Rebecca being negative about any
ethnic groups except hers. She does that all the time.
She even posted a negative response to an elegy for
Judith Wright! 8^o
Her judgements are politically based, and therefore
hypocritical. She can post on the White Australia Policy,
but others who post about ANZAC biscuits are attacked
as 'political' B^p
She can complain about ethnics and suggest race riots are just
around the corner, but anyone who celebtrates our largely
successful and peaceful multiculturalism is "NEGATIVE".
It is hard to understand until you remember Nev Duigoods
confession htat they planned to make this NG a 'home'
for One Nation.. and Gary Meadows admission that
his initial posts to this NG were made to counter some
paranoia he had about me beating Lisa to be first? B^p
(I can't follow his 'logic' either, but what IS clear, is that
EVEN before I made ANY posts to this NG.. Gary and
the Townsville Taliban were ALREADY hostile and
planning their exclusionary tactics!
So much for their claims that *I* am a troublemaker..
their current Kangaroo Kourt travesty is merely
another episode in a history of opposition, set in motion
BEFORE I EVEn POSTED HERE FOR THE FIRST TIME,
according to Gary.. and therefore, quite unrelated
to any action on my part. )
> Gangs are complex phenomena with many
> contributing factors.
Indeed the current "Opinion Poll" by Lance is a classic
case study in prejudice.
We actually see mob behaviour in action.
Weeks ago Neville called for me to be "banned",
he was asked then ON WHAT CHARGES,
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE..
and they ALL remained silent...
now they have passed directly to the sentencing! B^D
I would rather face a gang of Asian youth in a dark alley,
than these PRETENDERS, these faux trueblue, who
have NO IDEA of the tradition of a FAIR GO! B^p
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk... Patoooooie!
> Some of this may be
> (as I suspect) to do with the sheer number of
> people in a city, raising the number of
> "troublemakers". Some of it will do with the
> group identities and hatreds inherited by
> ethnicity. A lot of it will be because of
> that troublesome chemical testosterone.
> But none of it will be single-cause.
>
> Racism is what I was talking about. I said
> that racism in children is not natural. I
> said it is fostered by parents and by
> friends. My father was a weekend redneck -
> he did it because he enjoyed stirring shit.
> Shit stirrers get satisfaction when somebody
> "bights"; and "the left" bights most
> furiously and most often. So he would adopt
> a kind of right-wingness which was fairly
> hard in content but soft in wording. He
> was joking.
PJ O'Rourke made a living from it. ;-)
> As a young boy I took a lot if it at face
> value.
That may explain your subsequent political choices.. ;-)
> I sincerely believed the "foreign
> scum" were foreign scum; that aboriginals
> really had nobody to blame but themselves,
> and so forth. For a few years, my father
> then spent most of his time overseas on
> contract work.
>
> The turning point for me was when my
> father defended some ethnicity against a
> comment I made. I had made this comment in
> the same vein as he had once done. Over the
> next few days, I began to feel that he'd
> realised that he'd made an impression - that
> I had been too young to realise that he
> had made his comments in dubious jest. And
> now he was trying to undo it. My father
> poses as a "new right" man - but at heart,
> he is as concerned as anyone.
>
> He's a technician. He has the technician's
> sense of Working Properly and Broken.
That is a GREAT description! really evocative. :-)
> I read his writing, his letters from faraway
> countries and to editors; I sense he looks
> on the world as Broken. He wants to reach
> out and make it Work Properly. He never
> will. He's too timid, and he thinks he is
> too old. I admire him, but in many ways I
> do not wish to become much of what he is.
The fact that we are generational gives us
considerable social flexibility and is a real source of hope.
> As Salman Rushdie said, "You do not realise
> how much like your father you are, until you
> hear his voice speaking through your blood".
> Children will pick up on their parent's
> beliefs.
The ones they really hold, and act on, more than
just their stated ones.
And children sometimes define themselves in opposition to them.
(Which can be another form of being defined BY them...
how many sons and daughters of catholic families do you know
who grow up to be Fiercely anti-catholic, but in a very catholic way! )
> They will also pick up on friend's beliefs.
> At Kormilda there was a group of mildly
> right-wing students. Over time they amplified
> each other until they were far further to
> "the right" then when they had begun. In
> some sense, they had formed a gang.
I detect a very STRONG contempory resonance,
with events in a.c.tb! . ;-)
> Racism does not spring from inborn memory.
> It is not genetically encoded to hate or
> to weild a machete - that an "Anglo" and
> an "Asian" hate each other was not coded into
> them when the great migration of human kind
> began. It is a structure in their heads,
> built atop a group instinct and amplified
> with irrational thought. The most powerful
> source of those structures will *always* be
> your friends and your family.
>
> Racism is an intergenerational disease. It
> spreads from mind to mind. I hope it dies
> one day.
The single most effective means to kill the hatred
born of ignorance is to live and grow together.
The multicultural school which stereotype described
innoculates against the cancer of bigotry.. because you
CANNOT make a child believe that his little mate, who he
has known and played with.. is a demon.
There are more reasons that economic and social justice ones for
insisting on free, secular education for all children.
The community that plays together, stays together.
> > I worry for the future.
Sure, your fear produces negative thoughts.
I have Asian friends and Arab friends and Anglo friends...
They and I KNOW that violence is a product of ignorance, not race.
> One day, I hope, it just will be.
>
> be well;
Rebecca
Agora <ag...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:RPyi5.24484$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
>
> Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
they
> have?
>
Actually, that's two questions.
In reply to question 1:
Clearly not.
I don't want MC because I live in one of the most MC places in Australia and
I am actively involved in my local community and I can see the tragic and
hateful consequences of MC "on the ground".
But now that I've said this someone is likely to try to shut me up by
calling me a "racist" or "racial suprematist" or "neo-nazi" or whatever. For
the record, I don't greatly care. "Sticks and stones" and all that ...
(However, if anyone tries to link me to that dimwit from Ipswitch who
couldn't even read the book that was written for her, and published by her
silly party, I will be offended.)
In reply to question 2:
None.
We have no right to national or cultural self-determination.
If we tried to assert any such notional right the Septics would pull the
plug on our economy as they did with South Africa. If that didn't destroy us
they would have no hesitation in using military means against us, as they
have done against any nation that they deem a "rogue state" - most of which
have conveniently been Third World places that don't get sympathetic
treatment in our media.
Sorry, Agora, but I think we've had it.
Seppo Renfors
Che Guava wrote:
>
> Agora wrote:
>
> > Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> > Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> > think of it.
>
> You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
> those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
> stupid non sequitur....
>
> So who will win the hearts and minds of the One Nation remnant?
>
> As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real Nazi's, are wooing the
> fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to the bitter hard core
> racists and bigots.. but in this country they will always be a sideshow.
>
> The million who once made up One Nation are a much less extreme
> and more mottley crew.
> They include people who are concerned about issues like globalization,
> the GST and sale of telstra... the gutting of rural community services, the
> death of towns.. many of these will drift back into mainstream politics..
> probably via support for independents.
[snip irrelevancies]
> So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm praise
>
> of his Leader, ....because praise from Nazi's like Agora is enough to make
> any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
I would suggest the admiration and accolades from a Nazi SHOULD give
Nev the hint where his sympathies actually lie! What's the odds he
will even notice it??
Seppo Renfors
Ned Latham wrote:
[..]
>
> Bit late, Stereo. You and all of us would have been better served if
> you'd had enough knowkedge of, and pride in, Australia to resist the
> bullshit that the racists, sexists, homophiles and multiculturalists
> disseminate.
No THERE speaks a person who knows which side of the fence HE belongs!
Rebecca
It states: "As a Usenet thread grows, the probability of a reference to
Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.00. Corollary: When such a reference is made,
it is generally recognised that the poster has lost the argument."
(In the instance below he's also lost all sense of punctuation.)
Che Guava <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:398ACAC5...@my-deja.com...
>
Agora wrote:
[snip]
> As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real Nazi's, are wooing the
> fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to the bitter hard
core
> racists and bigots.. but in this country they will always be a sideshow.
>
[snip]
>
> So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm
praise
of his Leader, ....because praise from Nazi's like Agora is enough to make
> any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
>
[snip]
>
Loser!
Che Guava
Rebecca wrote:
> Agora <ag...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:RPyi5.24484$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> >
> > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
> > they have?
> >
>
> Actually, that's two questions.
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAA!
How many? B^D
Lets check: (Socks off, Townsville Taliban! ;-)
"What if Australians dont want MC?"
...That's ONE little piggy
"Do thay have the democratic right to reject it or not?"
...that's TWO little piggies
"If not, what democratic rights do they have?"
.. that's THREE little piggies! B^p
Look, you see those little wiggly things at the end of the sentences"?"
....they are a dead give-away! B^D
> In reply to question 1:
"What if Australians dont want MC?"
> Clearly not.
True, it's clearly not the case that Australians don't want MC.
The only party which ran on an explicit anti-MC platform is now
as dead as mutton. Ans the parties which 90-95% of Australains
choose SUPPORT multiculturalism.
Hell it's even written into our beloved aus.culture.trueblue CHARTER!
I quote:
"The "True Blue" name is used with the local (Australian) meaning.
By no means is it intended to specifically suggest this culture is the
only "genuine" culture within Australia's multicultural society."
So there you have it. THIS NG DRAWS IT'S LEGITIMACY DIRECTLY
FROM A DOCUMENT WHICH PROCLAIMS THAT WE ARE
PART OF, AND GUARANTEED BY, MULTICULTURALISM!!!! B^D
Oh dear, I bet YOU feel foolish to find yourself, and your negativity
towards all your fellow Australians who ARE multicultural,
IN THE WRONG NG!
Bye! B^D
> I don't want MC because I live in one of the most MC places in Australia
Oh boo hoo! B^p
THE WORLD IS MULTICULTURAL! Where are you planning to go?
I reckon this is the BEST damn country in the world! And I am tired
of you negative whiners knocking it! If you don't like multiculturalism..
why don't you go back to Bavaria! B^D
<snip>
> (However, if anyone tries to link me to that dimwit from Ipswitch who
> couldn't even read the book that was written for her, and published by her
> silly party, I will be offended.)
No chance of that.. she was far more consistent and rational than you are. ;-)
> In reply to question 2:
"Do thay have the democratic right to reject it or not?"
> None.
Well, of course, you Taliban think YOU have ALL the rights,
so it comes as no surprise to see you denying them to everyone
else.
Us genuine trueblues disagree, we believe in rights, and
A FAIR GO FOR ALL!
> We have no right to national or cultural self-determination.
It doesn't matter how stridently you deny our rights, you are just plain wrong!
<snip>
> Sorry, Agora, but I think we've had it.
Yes, the Townsville Taliban were defeated the first time an honest trueblue
stood up to them.. it just takes a long while for the realization to dawn
on the more obtuse..... B^D
Victory belongs to the Multicultural majority, It is a democracy,
not a perfect one, but one of teh best, most peaceful and prosperous
multicultural societies on the planet! LETS CELEBRATE! B^D
BTW, If you learn the tolerance the majority of Australians demonstrate,
you can stay. ;-)
Che Guava
> Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> think of it.
You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
stupid non sequitur....
So who will win the hearts and minds of the One Nation remnant?
As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real [Naughty boys],
are wooing the fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to
the bitter hard core racists and bigots.. but in this country they will
always be a sideshow.
The million who once made up One Nation are a much less extreme
and more mottley crew.
They include people who are concerned about issues like globalization,
the GST and sale of telstra... the gutting of rural community services, the
death of towns.. many of these will drift back into mainstream politics..
probably via support for independents.
The nats will try and win back those they see as their 'natural constituency'
(They deserve each other ;-)
Howard will wear his akubra and pull stunts like the IVF posturing to
try and ginger some support for the rural marginals he is going to lose
because
of telstra, the GST, petrol and interest rates...
The ALP, as Bracks has shown will attract a lot of the realistic dissaffected
who have learnt they just have to become more volatile voters, squeaky wheels,
if they want oiling.
But the ALP never bent on issues like Multiculti.. they stayed firm right
throughout the Hanson push, when Johhnnie wavered and looked to the polls!
B^p
True he came back to endorse M/C once he sussed which way the wind was
blowing, but some of those hardcore racists will overlook hypocrisy..
because lets face it.. their whole philosophy is BUILT on it! B^p
I just think he, and the PHONie hard core, are mistaken if they
overestimate the latent racism in the electorate. As I advised
Mackay two years ago, lose the racism, Australians hate that shit..
If you become a genuine party of decency and political change..
you will go from strength to strength.. But they didn't..
and the Australian people discarded them.
So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm praise
of his Leader, ....because praise from [Naughty Boys] like Agora is enough to
make
any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
Che Guava
__________
Chief Maker of trouble for the Townsville Taliban,
Champion of the Fair Go FOR ALL,
GENUINE true-blue,
embryonic Net Legend ;-)
Rebecca wrote:
> Have you ever heard of the Usenet rule known as Godwin's law?
Yes you post it EVERY time.. do try and stop spouting cliches,
OTHER PEOPLES cliches, and get an original idea of your own.
You don't mind slagging Asians, but any one who talks about fascists
and bigots meets your witless right wing Political Correctness! B^p
> It states: "As a Usenet thread grows, the probability of a reference to
> Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.00. Corollary: When such a reference is made,
> it is generally recognised that the poster has lost the argument."
Of course, if Godwins PC law had been around in the 1930's there
would be a lot more dead Jews and we would all be speaking German! B^D
But thanks for sharing your MORONIC view that there will NEVER EVER
be a reason to talk about fascism, or those who preach it, that it is now,
according to you, VERBOTTEN to mention the modent N*zi Parties
from now till the end of time! B^D
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak Patooooooooooooooeeeeeee! B^p
It can be a useful PC tool for those who strain at gnats and swallow camels,
enabling them to avoid all serious debate, and instead giving them some nits to
pick:
> (In the instance below he's also lost all sense of punctuation.)
My my, its the Punctuation Police.. what a little Naz... oops.. anal
retentive!
>
> Che Guava <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:398ACAC5...@my-deja.com...
> >
> Agora wrote:
> [snip]
Taliban modus operandi: "Never leave evidence"
>
>
> > As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real Nazi's, are wooing the
> > fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to the bitter hard
> core
> > racists and bigots.. but in this country they will always be a sideshow.
> >
> [snip]
Taliban modus operandi: "having posted party line, snip all points"
>
> >
> > So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm
> praise
> of his Leader, ....because praise from Nazi's like Agora is enough to make
> > any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
> >
> [snip]
Taliban modus operandi: "having posted party line, snip all points"
> >
Taliban modus operandi: "gratuitous insult and witless ad hom:"
> Loser!
not yet.. B^)
Lets see you deal with IDEAS .. or are you only good with right wing PC
and punctuation! B^D B^D B^D
S.Benedikt
It was a great post..
Neville Duguid wrote in message
<1eetcqq.r4...@cpe-203-45-152-13.qld.bigpond.net.au>...
- Euripides
<snip>
Che Guava
Rebecca wrote:
> Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote in
> message news:8mdoco$6p4$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
>
> [snip - this post was interesting and sensitive, but I only want to respond
> to one bit]
>
> >
> > I come from Darwin, and I think I know how you
> > feel. Kids just don't grow racism. It doesn't
> > need to be removed from their psyches like some
> > wart. It grows there, fostered by parents and friends.
> >
> > When children are put together in "multicultural"
> > groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> > scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> > mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> > unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> > and hatred.
> >
> > Yeah, there's racism where I come from. No
> > shortage of it. Yet the children play on, oblivious;
> > yet the ethnic groups and races and groups mix
> > and mingle and intermarry and make friends. It's
> > not commented on, it merely happens.
> >
> [snip]
>
> In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
> multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a polling
> booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it returned
> the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
> report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its accuracy,
> Remember, our obviously sincere friend Jacques (and I am also sincere in
> paying him this tribute) wrote this:
>
> > When children are put together in "multicultural"
> > groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> > scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> > mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> > unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> > and hatred.
>
> Well, here at the front life isn't *like* that. And please note that the
> really vicious stuff wasn't perpetrated or even provoked by the Anglos - or,
> as the non-Anglos dismissively call them, with hatred in their voices,
> "Skips".
>
> It would be lovely to live in a world where the different races and ethnic
> groups were able to bond together in peace and love and harmony and
> altruism. It would be lovely to live in a world where "the lion can lie down
> with the lamb", which I think is a quote from the Bible. It would be lovely
> to be able to live forever in an extended pipe dream.
>
> But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the kids
> *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the unknown". With some of
> the machete-wielding Asian students I know that I helped the Kinder staff to
> change their nappies from time to time. I know their parents by name. We get
> on as OK as any inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and near-murder.
>
> I worry for the future.
I'm a country boy by birth, born in the western district, grew up in
Gippsland.
My late Father was raised in the city.
He told me when the suburban gangs met to fight in his day,
they would rip the pickets off a fence and have at each other.
Then the cops would arrive.. The Flying Squad I think he called them..
and they would beat the shit out of both gangs, anyone they caught! B^D
Anyway.. that was life in the 1930's and 40's I guess. ;-)
All white boys.... or Skips in the modern vernacular! B^p
I am sure there was some social theorist at the time explaining to everyone,
as you have done, how it all boded ill for the future, and how it was all the
fault of the last batch of (pommie?) migrants or flapper music, or something
else they didn't understand! B^D
>From what I can gather, in that Halcyon period (sic) before most of the
Greeks and Italians arrived, (and certainly before the Asians you have
chosen to fear ;-) there was hostility between the Catholics and the
Protestants, (not as bad as as in mono-ethnic Ireland of course, but
then what was eh, Rebecca? ;-)
Your anecdotal examples are neither typical nor causal.
There are obviously far more peaceful and untroubled multicultural
communities in Australia then you pretend, and the existence of
monocultural violence of far greater intensity (say, the American Civil
War, the most bloody and violent in that Nations history) shows, in lay terms,
that you are talking shit. B^p
So, I guess that explains the complaints by Pliny the Elder that ancient
Roman youth lack all discipline! B^D
Che
----
Ned Latham
> Rebecca wrote:
----snip----
> > I worry for the future.
I think you're right to worry, Rebecca. Australia's being Balkanized.
> Don't. All this is caused by prejudice, you should worry about
> removing the prejudice. You are right to worry about the future if the
> society you live in refuses to remove all forms of discrimination. You
> can't have a peaceful multicultural society until you remove
> deliberate discrimination. Lebanese, Tongan, Samoan, and Asian
> Australians form gangs because they are racially, religously and
> economically oppressed by this society.
So is everyone else outside the upper echelons of the so-called main
stream. This society is founded on institutionalised hostility. The
conflicts that various ethnic groups in Oz are engaging in are an
inevitable consequence of the encouragement this society gives to
the hatreds they've brought here with them as part of the baggage
of their cultures. The PC junkies have a lovely euphemism for this:
they call it "tolerance".
> The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group of
> people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> another.
Crap. Those peoples have hated each other for centuries. What kept
them from each others' throats in the past was their subjection to
other peoples' empires: notably, Turkey, Austria-Hungary and in this
century until recently, Yugoslavia. Now NATO's carrying the bag.
The Turkish and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were multicultural;
Yugoslavia was monocultural. Nothing those empires did improved the
attitudes of the Balkan peoples to each other: not the tolerance; not
the repression; not even the enforcement of good behaviour over the
last 700 odd years. What makes you think things will work differently
here?
Jacques Chester
Hash: SHA1
Rebecca <reb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:0yPi5.24859$c5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Have you ever heard of the Usenet rule known as Godwin's law?
>
> It states: "As a Usenet thread grows, the probability of a
> reference to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.00. Corollary: When such
> a reference is made, it is generally recognised that the poster has
> lost the argument."
http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/mar98/0241.html
An excellent summary of the logic paradoxes
contained in Godwin's Law, some of the
many amusing corollaries, and a link to a
story by Godwin explaining that it was an
experiment in 'memology'. Godwin deliberately
set out to create an artificial "meme" and
was wildly successful.
All harks back to the Golden Era of netnews,
doesn't it? :)
be well;
JC.
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Ned Latham
----snip----
> I believe so. Subjective hate is different than objective. ie. a
> person who hates those who hate homosexuals, or a person who hates
> racists, is an objective hater. The homophobic and the racist are
> subjective haters, they hate people and seek to make their lives worse
> through prejudice. Objective haters hate homophobics and racists, and
> seek to make the lives of those they hate better.
So tell us how you determine that hatred of homosexuals is subjective
and hatred of homophobes is objective.
Seppo Renfors
Ned Latham wrote:
>
> stereotype wrote in <342losgebet89vfc9...@4ax.com>:
> > Rebecca wrote:
>
[..]
>
> > The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group of
> > people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> > another.
>
> Crap. Those peoples have hated each other for centuries. What kept
> them from each others' throats in the past was their subjection to
> other peoples' empires: notably, Turkey, Austria-Hungary and in this
> century until recently, Yugoslavia. Now NATO's carrying the bag.
>
> The Turkish and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were multicultural;
> Yugoslavia was monocultural. Nothing those empires did improved the
> attitudes of the Balkan peoples to each other: not the tolerance; not
> the repression; not even the enforcement of good behaviour over the
> last 700 odd years. What makes you think things will work differently
> here?
Ned you actually managed to disprove everything you said, that I did a
mercy snip on. You definitely got this bit right "Yugoslavia was
monocultural", and that is EXACTLY what led to the latest war there.
You are advocating the same Yugoslavia monoculture for Australia, and
the result from that WILL be the same as there. This is as sure as day
follows night.
Kolu Koleff
"Sean" wrote :
>Most war and race hate comes from jealousy and >greed - the racism is just
an
> excuse to get mad enough to kill each other.
>
> ie Slavery - primarily driven by greed not by default hatred for the
slaves
> race.
> ie Territorial or resource disputes - greed and jealousy between have and
> have-nots
differences are the prime cause of the bulk of the world's violence is a
matter for debate but they certainly appear to be associated with mass
violence around the world.
> Also when time passes after these situations the hatred is then bred into
> children by parents and govt's but the source is not some spine tingling
> repulsion that one gene has for another - its the family unit that is
> responsible
> sorry if im rambling
human condition a genetic predisposition to racism subject to cultural
modification seems likely. I'm not saying that people are born as super
racists but I think the tendency is there. Remember that genetics are about
survival not so much of the individual but of the group to which the
individual belongs. After all to preserve your group even at the cost of
your own life is to preserve and ensure the passing on of your group's ( and
hence your own ) DNA. This just happens because if it didn't happen the
group's DNA simply would have died out. Racism perhaps springs from a
mechanism of group survival on a genetic level with its human characters
having no real understanding of why they really hate another racial group.
Also perhaps this "hate what isn't genetically like you" idea is
misinterpreted at a higher level in the human mind and is instinctively
applied to different races, religions and so on without a survival penalty
to DNA. Their is also the concept of projection where people attack in
others what they deny in themselves. What better way to deny your own racism
than to see yourself as an anti racist. This idea at least fits in with
racist positions (they are dirty, lazy, etc ) and the contrary position that
some people adopt in which every race except their own is perfect. I also
feel that many people have "risen above" their genetic urges and that
upbringing is an important factor in this. It could also be that altruism is
one of those factors (like hereditary disease) that is attached to survival
enhancing genes and is passed on despite giving no survival benefit.
Whatever motivates humans, I have met some remarkably honest, generous and
kind people around the world but very few decent organisations.
Object to this if you like because I'm just guessing. One thing though, I
don't blame the family unit as you so readily do.
This whole dressing up in national costumes for a school event and the kids
enjoying it business might warm your heart but it can hardly be put forward
as a defence of MC when sadly virtually all the evidence from around the
world leads to the opposite conclusion.
Regards Kolu.
Kolu Koleff
"Rebecca" <reb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:0yPi5.24859$c5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Have you ever heard of the Usenet rule known as Godwin's law?
>
> It states: "As a Usenet thread grows, the probability of a reference to
> Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.00. Corollary: When such a reference is made,
> it is generally recognised that the poster has lost the argument."
Granted that references to Nazism are rife and often inappropriate but this
can not invalidate an otherwise sound argument. It could be that some
posters are having their position made clear to them and flee to the safety
of "Godwin's Law" as a sanctuary. Holding your position it would be hard to
argue against a National Socialist on this group as you could make no
reference to what his/her politics have brought to the world without
automatically "losing". That said, I agree that Nazi references get pretty
tedious.
Regards Kolu.
Kolu Koleff
"Jacques Chester" >
> Yeah, there's racism where I come from. No
> shortage of it. Yet the children play on, oblivious;
> yet the ethnic groups and races and groups mix
> and mingle and intermarry and make friends. It's
> not commented on, it merely happens.
generally intermarry. I agree with your sentiment but I think it's ignoring
what really happens.
Regards Kolu.
Kolu Koleff
"Rebecca" wrote in message
news:zavi5.24327$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> really vicious stuff wasn't perpetrated or even provoked by the Anglos -
or,
> as the non-Anglos dismissively call them, with hatred in their voices,
> "Skips".
>
> It would be lovely to live in a world where the different races and ethnic
> groups were able to bond together in peace and love and harmony and
> altruism. It would be lovely to live in a world where "the lion can lie
down
> with the lamb", which I think is a quote from the Bible. It would be
lovely
> to be able to live forever in an extended pipe dream.
>
> But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the kids
> *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the unknown". With some
of
> the machete-wielding Asian students I know that I helped the Kinder staff
to
> change their nappies from time to time. I know their parents by name. We
get
> on as OK as any inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and near-murder.
>
Sad but true. There was an incident at a well known private school where
asians on one side and caucasians on the other lined up to fight. Teachers
stopped it before it could start and found that the asian but not the
caucasian kids were carrying edged weapons. Why the desire to suppress a
perpetrators race in this country? If certain ethnic groups really did
commit few crimes they would be advantaged by having criminals identified as
belonging to another group. Governments love the "if you don't have anything
to hide" argument, but only when it suits them.
Regards Kolu.
Kolu Koleff
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:39:55 +1000, "Rebecca" <reb...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> >multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a
polling
> >booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it
returned
> >the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
> >report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its
accuracy,
>
> Mine was Turner Public School (ACT). I think it was 3rd highest Yes
> vote. Most of the voters are white/middle class.
interests of democracy they shouldn't be allowed to vote!
Regards Kolu.
Kolu Koleff
> removing the prejudice. You are right to worry about the future if the
> society you live in refuses to remove all forms of discrimination. You
> can't have a peaceful multicultural society until you remove
> deliberate discrimination. Lebanese, Tongan, Samoan, and Asian
> Australians form gangs because they are racially, religously and
> economically oppressed by this society.
country and its people to avoidable problems? It's not about racism it's
about doing what's best for Australians.
> The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group of
> people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> another.
the war was caused by groups who only remembered the injustices that they
suffered and not the injustices they caused. Whoever gets the chance
persecutes the others. Virtually every group in the Balkans has been the
agressor and the victim at some time.
>The same happened in Rwanda. The same >happens all over the
> world on a regular basis.
What are you some kind of apologist for baby killers?
> You seek to discriminate against these people further by
> simplistically describing incidents they are involved in and blaming
> them.
Prisons are full of people discriminated just because they were involved in
incidents like robbery and muder.
>You people rail against ethnic ghettos as if they >were
> deliberately created by these people themselves.
If the Government herded them there at gun point you'd be right.
>These ghettos were
> caused by racial and economic discrimination, not because a group of
> people decided to take over a suburb and start a gang war.
Buying houses in a suburb is enough. How come there are certain asian ethnic
groups that don't form ghettos?
> You highlight the bad and ignore the good. Cabramatta has the best
> restaurant district in Australia, only matched by Carlton and Richmond
> in Melbourne.
Talk about archetypal, the food, it's all about the food and I suppose if
you can afford to live outside Cabramatta and just visit the restaurants
while avoiding the crime it's a good argument. Why didn't Australia just
bring in a few thousand chefs from around the world? We could have the
culinary advantages without the violent downside.
>They have a drug problem too. These people >don't choose
> to become drug dealers as a career path. When >this society stops
> deliberately discriminating against them >economically, when they are
> able to get the same steady jobs you are able to >get, when they work
> hard, go to university and become leaders and >when another generation
> has passed, there will still be a drug problem. But >the same people
> won't be causing the same problems.
You need some money, be a criminal is what you are saying. As I said this
trouble was easily avoided.
> There might be another group, but there doesn't have to be. If
> discrimination on religious and racial grounds is >outlawed, and I mean
> seriously, not just on a piece of paper, if people >who discriminate
> are charged and heavily penalised, made to >realise that discrimination
> can be both deliberate and unintentional, if the >penalties for
> discrimination were as high as drug dealing (it >causes just as many
> problems, so why not?), then you could have a >peaceful Australia.
Pass a law. Bloody brilliant. Let's pass a law against murder as well, that
will stop it. You really are the little social engineer aren't you. Where do
you get off blaming Anglo Celts for racism?
> I've posted this before and Neville Duguid tried to tell me that
> discrimination was a part of the human condition, >that there are
> ingroups and outgroups and that's the way it is. >That's NOT the way it
> is. It is only like that because it is perpetuated >deliberately by
> those who want cheap labour and those who own >the media.
>
> There will always be rich and poor. They don't >always have to be the
> same people. This is where Nev tells us about all >those poor anglo
> people. And he's right, there are plenty. But I >challenge you to look
> at the income statistics for Anglo-Australians vs >Lebanese-
If a immigrnat group can't hack it and justifiably ( as you say ) turns to
crime does it occur to you that we should bring in ethnic groups who do well
and don't turn to crime so readily.
> Australians on a population level. They do exist. >Then maybe you'd
> stop blaming people, do something about >discrimination, stop wondering
> why there are gangs, and we'd go some way >towards getting rid of the
> problem.
A lot of criminals commit crimes because its profitable and they have no
compunction about hurting people. To argue that it's due to discrimination
is a lot of left wing nonsense.
Kolu
Kolu Koleff
"Seppo Renfors" <sren...@invalid.adelaide.on.net> wrote in message
news:398C3B82...@invalid.adelaide.on.net...
>
>
> Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > stereotype wrote in <342losgebet89vfc9...@4ax.com>:
> > > Rebecca wrote:
> >
> [..]
> >
> > > people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> > > another.
> >
> > them from each others' throats in the past was their subjection to
> > other peoples' empires: notably, Turkey, Austria-Hungary and in this
> > century until recently, Yugoslavia. Now NATO's carrying the bag.
> >
> > The Turkish and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were multicultural;
> > Yugoslavia was monocultural. Nothing those empires did improved the
> > attitudes of the Balkan peoples to each other: not the tolerance; not
> > the repression; not even the enforcement of good behaviour over the
> > last 700 odd years. What makes you think things will work differently
> > here?
>
> Ned you actually managed to disprove everything you said, that I did a
> mercy snip on. You definitely got this bit right "Yugoslavia was
> monocultural", and that is EXACTLY what led to the latest war there.
> You are advocating the same Yugoslavia monoculture for Australia, and
> the result from that WILL be the same as there. This is as sure as day
> follows night.
what a lot of do gooders in Australia seem to be aiming at. Yugoslavia
wasn't monocultural but the inter cultural clashes were minimised by
repressive regimes of the past. If you really want an authoritarian
government or the fragmentation of Australia into separate nation states MC
is the way to go.
Regards Kolu.
Hunter Keramidas
> Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
> most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>
> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> hate.
[rest deleted]
-------
What did you expect ?
Racism is Learnt from bad role models.
It is not a genetic inheritance.
Hunter.
Kolu Koleff
"Seppo Renfors" .
>
> THAT has nothing to do with "multiculturalism", it is a convenient peg
> to hang a bigoted hat on. What you see is not particularly race
> related. Gangs and gang warfare exists for different reasons.
> Elizabeth was know for many gangs, rival gangs and they were manly
> poms, but fighting each other.
>
> The picture you attempt to paint with your use of the term PC and
> "ethnic gangs" etc are to further division, that is then a self
> perpetuation thing. There is "PC" of many kinds, that of the likes of
> Neville & Co and that "Anglo PC's" you refer to. It is merely a matter
> of view point.
Well the idea of ethnic gangs is one shared by the ethnics if not you.
Ethnic groups know how bad it is and your denial or trivialising isn't going
to make it go away.
> What you are doing here is contributing to the continuation of trouble
> as you are directly pointing a finger at one thing, and one thing ONLY
When gangs are race based, race is a damn good starting point if you can
take off your idealogical blinkerss long enough.
> -RACE! Race hatred and racism is weird in the sense than many of the
> people who are very racists, have friends among the race they hate.
Yeah, sure they do. What are their names? This is a bullshit attempt to
label Rebecca as a racist and win by default. While Rebecca talks about what
she has actually seen you talk in mindless abstracts.
> They have no problems with their friends of any particular race, but
> these get excluded somehow from the target group "THEY" - it is always
> a "they" or "them" -"they" don't have names, they only have a colour,
> culture or ethnic origin.
>
> It is this unreasonableness that causes troubles- like you, who wiped
> asian babies bottoms and yet seem to hate "them" by pointing fingers
> at their race, citing THIS as the cause of the problems.
Do you really think it helps "asians" to ignore the crimes committed chiefly
against them by other asians.?
> It really is
> irrelevant WHO, or what colour, people are if they >cause problems.
> That has to be eliminated. DO you HONESTLY >think that it is their skin
> colour that causes them to misbehave? What >caused the gangs in
> Elisabeth? There was no skin colour or ethnic >difference there, but
> they did fight, using bike chains, broken bottles >etc.
It's not the point. If certain groups of people are more prone to crime than
otherss you are doing all Australians a favour by not admitting them rather
than subjecting everyone to your dangerous social experiment.
> It isn't a phenomenon isolated to either >Melbourne or Sydney. These
> are problems in every major city in the world, >regardless of colour or
> mix of ethnicity or even lack thereof. You are quite >wrong to point to
> peoples skin colour!!
Look at US crime statistics broken down by race of perpetrator and race of
victim and come back and say that. It's simply not true. As far as your
oppressed fighting back against the oppresssor, as I said, check who the
victims are.
> > Remember, our obviously sincere friend Jacques (and I am also sincere in
> > paying him this tribute) wrote this:
> >
> > > groups, racism just isn't a natural part of the
> > > scene. Racism is only natural when kids *don't*
> > > mix - when they later respond with the fear of the
> > > unknown so often cited as the root of xenophobia
> > > and hatred.
> >
> > really vicious stuff wasn't perpetrated or even provoked by the Anglos -
or,
> > as the non-Anglos dismissively call them, with hatred in their voices,
> > "Skips".
>
> "non-Anglos" gangs, are you, seeing as you speak so damned
> authoritatively of "hatred in their voices" and it being
> "dismissively". That is why you KNOW the "Anglos" did nothing at all,
> eh? May I suggest to you that it is your own dislikes of "them" that
> causes you to believe that stuff. The point being that you EXPECT it
> and therefor believe it to be true no matter how they said it, or even
> what they actually said.
>
> > It would be lovely to live in a world where the different races and
ethnic
> > groups were able to bond together in peace and love and harmony and
> > altruism. It would be lovely to live in a world where "the lion can lie
down
> > with the lamb", which I think is a quote from the Bible. It would be
lovely
> > to be able to live forever in an extended pipe dream.
>
> situation exists. A bad analogy to use in fact - demonstrates the
> fears within you yourself. However if it be peace you want SHOW you
> want peace not war. The easiest start you can make there is to stop
> pointing at peoples skin colour, their ethnicity, their "culture"
> which is a disguised way of saying "race" by the PC of your variety.
> >
> > But it's just not true. In the example I have given, Jacques, the kids
> > *have* mixed - since Kinder. There is no "fear of the unknown". With
some of
> > the machete-wielding Asian students I know that I helped the Kinder
staff to
> > change their nappies from time to time. I know their parents by name. We
get
> > on as OK as any inner-suburban people can. But the end-result of
> > multiculturalism in this part of the world has been riots and
near-murder.
>
> stated here. You said;
> "electorate is certainly one of the trendiest and most PC in the
> country. So as you can imagine, there wouldn't be many Anglo-Celtic
> parents teaching racism to their children."
>
> then you suggest it is predominantly a white area, with only a small
> proportion of "foreigners". This is so, because only WHITE people of
> long standing in Australia can be "PC", in YOUR variety of "PC"
> language.
>
> You equate a high "YES" vote in the republican referendum to mean
> these people are "PC" and therefor supporters of "multiculturalism"...
> and they cannot belong to your mob, as YOUR side is staunchly
> Monarchist... and that is WHY you say "there wouldn't be many
> Anglo-Celtic parents teaching racism" NOTE: this also confirms my
> statement above that only WHITE people (or in your case specifically
> "Anglo") can be "PC".
>
> That then leaves ALL those who did NOT vote "YES", as the people who
> DO teach "racism" to their kids. You have totally dismissed all the
> people that are NON-ANGLO in your considerations totally as if they
> don't count!! Quite frankly the thought process you have portrayed
> here is quite loony!
>
> Racism generates another form of "racism" ( - a hate of racists), and
> it is unlikely that every NON-ANGLO is a non racist anyway. I'm sure
> that gang related incidents are not racist at all - it is merely
> projected as such by you. Class division has a lot to do with it -
> lack of opportunities - lack of things to do - drugs etc etc. They
> probably aren't even GANGS in the proper sense of the word!
As I said, when a gang is all of one race only an idealogue like you would
ignore race.
> Neither is it true that there are no "Anglo" gangs in Melbourne - or
> probably even in your local area. Hell they get rather carried away at
> times with bombs and shootings, in fact some of them have had a bit of
> a yike with another gang in Adelaide, and I mean GANG on the proper
> sense. It resulted in a couple of deaths. You know what, the murderers
> will get away with it too, as the gang members from both sides have
> clammed up and are saying nothing! It is quite bigoted to point
> fingers at ethnic groups and ignore the so called "anglo" gangs
> (really that includes anyone indiscernible from an "anglo")
>Yeah, Asians tremble at the thought of Anglo gangs NOT. Do you have any
idea what you are talking about. Ask some asians about gangs and get out of
fantasy land.
> > I worry for the future.
>
> person.
Exactly. People like you out of the kindness of your hearts create problems
and we have to fix them. Basically start your own country and stuff that up
not mine then expect me to fix it.
>Fight against bigotry - the REAL bigotry in the >work places -
> the entertainment venues - the schools - the >language used etc. In the
> UK you can get a jail term for racist remarks >made to another person -
> they don't even have to be particularly nasty! >Perhaps that is
> something you could call for?
Yeah thought police you totalitarian clown. Of course it'd be like the case
where and an aborigine was called a black bastard and took the person to
court. In court the aborigine called a barrister a Jewish something or other
but that was apparently OK.
Kolu
Kolu Koleff
"Jacques Chester" <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> > >
> Where I come from we have all the colours
> of the world - we have our violence. Some
> of it is on race lines. But it's not so
> harsh. I'm beginning to think of gangs as
> a consequence of large cities. They've
> existed for as long as the city has: Roman
> senators hired gangs, gangs in Los Angeles
> of racially similar makeup fight over
> colours and streets (and drugs) ...
their fellows rather than an ethnic group.
> I just don't think you can pin gangs to one
> thing and say "Aha! That is Why It Is So!".
> To do so - bluntly - is sloppy thinking.
> (as I suspect) to do with the sheer number of
> people in a city, raising the number of
> "troublemakers". Some of it will do with the
> group identities and hatreds inherited by
> ethnicity. A lot of it will be because of
> that troublesome chemical testosterone.
> But none of it will be single-cause.
under the right circumstances is a boon to humanity given too much free time
and no guidance is a curse.
> Racism is what I was talking about. I said
> that racism in children is not natural. I
> said it is fostered by parents and by
> friends. My father was a weekend redneck -
> he did it because he enjoyed stirring shit.
> Shit stirrers get satisfaction when somebody
> "bights"; and "the left" bights most
> furiously and most often. So he would adopt
> a kind of right-wingness which was fairly
> hard in content but soft in wording. He
> was joking.
> As a young boy I took a lot if it at face
> scum" were foreign scum; that aboriginals
> really had nobody to blame but themselves,
> and so forth. For a few years, my father
> contract work.
>
> The turning point for me was when my
> father defended some ethnicity against a
> comment I made. I had made this comment in
> the same vein as he had once done. Over the
> next few days, I began to feel that he'd
> realised that he'd made an impression - that
> I had been too young to realise that he
> had made his comments in dubious jest. And
> now he was trying to undo it. My father
> poses as a "new right" man - but at heart,
> he is as concerned as anyone.
>
> He's a technician. He has the technician's
> read his writing, his letters from faraway
> countries and to editors; I sense he looks
> on the world as Broken. He wants to reach
> out and make it Work Properly. He never
> will. He's too timid, and he thinks he is
> too old. I admire him, but in many ways I
> do not wish to become much of what he is.
>
> how much like your father you are, until you
> hear his voice speaking through your blood".
> Children will pick up on their parent's
> beliefs.
> They will also pick up on friend's beliefs.
> At Kormilda there was a group of mildly
> right-wing students. Over time they amplified
> each other until they were far further to
> "the right" then when they had begun. In
> some sense, they had formed a gang.
>
> It is not genetically encoded to hate or
> to weild a machete - that an "Anglo" and
> an "Asian" hate each other was not coded into
> them when the great migration of human kind
> began. It is a structure in their heads,
> built atop a group instinct and amplified
> with irrational thought. The most powerful
> source of those structures will *always* be
> your friends and your family.
from if not genetics?
> Racism is an intergenerational disease. It
> spreads from mind to mind. I hope it dies
> one day.
>
>
>
>
>
> JC.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
>
Kolu Koleff
ideology and racism. Her point on schools is correct. The system doesn't
discriminate against but rather for NESB students even though they generally
do better in VCE.
Anglo gangs are pretty much a myth conjured up to excuse asian gangs.
Australians are remarkably tolerant ( and I speak from personal experience )
and to label them otherwise is a gross injustice. If you look at some of the
societies from which our migrants come you will find that they suffer from
endemic corruption, crime and racism. When such people come to Australia and
continue in this way it is absurd to blame the consequent problems on racism
and discrimination by Australians.
Kolunews:GNOi5.24829$c5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Kolu Koleff
"Che Guava" >
> She ( Rebecca ) can complain about ethnics and suggest race riots are just
> around the corner, but anyone who celebtrates our largely
> successful and peaceful multiculturalism is "NEGATIVE".
Kolu:
It's only a successful MC society because it isn't one yet. The majority of
people in Australia are either Anglo Celtic or have adopted the value
system.
Yeah me too. Write to the group after you have, if you still can.
Yes you can.
> There are more reasons that economic and social justice ones for
> insisting on free, secular education for all children.
> The community that plays together, stays together.
>
> > > I worry for the future.
>
> Sure, your fear produces negative thoughts.
>
> I have Asian friends and Arab friends and Anglo friends...
>
> They and I KNOW that violence is a product of ignorance, not race.
Your ignorance and their ignorance.
Kolu Koleff
Notice it was fence pickets and not knives and machettes. My mother lived
through them days son and although there were gangs it was small beer
compared to what we have now. Violence in schools then, not bloody common if
at all. Distort history to fit your ideology. You can't even spell Ernesto's
name correctly. The American Civil war is it? Yes it happened but rack up
the death toll against ethnically inspired violence. Even if you are one
hundred percent correct you are saying that because we already have violence
it's OK to import more.news:398C0EA6...@my-deja.com...
Kolu Koleff
"brian" <bria...@dragon.net.au> wrote in message
> How would they reject it, Agora?
>
> Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's lounge
> room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
>
> Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply don't
> give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they see
> fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they like
> being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> to.
The old fait accompli argument. Well Australia isn't MC yet and stopping it
just means controlling immigration. As far as repressive laws go we seem to
be getting them courtesy of the MC mob who want to stop people complaining
about all the problems of MC.
Kolu
Kolu Koleff
"Che Guava" >
> Victory belongs to the Multicultural majority, It is a democracy,
> not a perfect one, but one of teh best, most peaceful and prosperous
> multicultural societies on the planet! LETS CELEBRATE! B^D
Are you even dimly aware that many migrants from non English speaking
countries are against MC because they came here to enjoy the benefits of an
Anglo Celtic country and escape the crime and corruption of their former
countries.
Kolu
brian
>
> "brian" <bria...@dragon.net.au> wrote in message
> > How would they reject it, Agora?
> >
> > Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's lounge
> > room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> > approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> > street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> > neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> > of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> > Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> > refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
> >
> > Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> > like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply don't
> > give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they see
> > fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> > they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> > has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> > impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they like
> > being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> > suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> > who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> > to.
> The old fait accompli argument.
Yes, Max, it works everytime.
> Well Australia isn't MC yet and stopping it
> just means controlling immigration.
Does it? Two thirds of the nation have at least one parent who was born
overseas. They have been raised with the conscious knowledge that they
are allowed to practice their parents' or a mixture of their parents'
and Australian culture if they so desire to. The Djinni has been let
out of the bottle and no matter how much you lost complain about it, its
not going to take kindly to being stuffed back in.
> As far as repressive laws go we seem to
> be getting them courtesy of the MC mob who want to stop people complaining
> about all the problems of MC.
*WHAT* "problems of MC"? MC is about tolerance. Most of the problems
ascribed to MC is in reality caused by the _intolerance_ of individuals
or groups, not the concept of MC, itself, per se. Just as the problems
represented by religion are usually not the fault of the religious
teachings, which preach the reverse usually but rather the result of the
intolerance and hatred propagated by individuals.
--
"It is the knowledge of the mechanics of war, not of the
principles of strategy, that distinguishes a good leader
from a bad [one]."
Archibald Wavell, Generals and Generalship
brian
And how, pray tell, does the practice of tolerance towards others
prevent them from doing so, unless of course you're referring to the
famouse Anglo-Saxonic/Celtic prospensity for hatred and intolerance?
Agora
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> >
> > Just 1 question.
I dont know if you realise this but you have actually agreed with me. All I
said was - do Australians have the democratic right to reject MC? Your
answer shows that you agree, that you think they have the right, but that
they have voted for MC by not voting for PH. Fine. We agree they have the
right. I dont agree that ON was able to compete on a level playing field,
and I think that the major parties and the media still conspire to not
debate the issue so that the mug public has no choice. But thats beside the
point. The point is that you agree that MC should be subject to the
democratic mandate.
> You seem to have the numeracy problems common in dumb as pigshit
> redneck racist Nazi bigots. :-) There are THREE questions here.. B^D
>
> admittedly, taken together they don't amount to ONE decent question..
> but if you take your socks off you can probably confirm the tally:
>
> > What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
they
> > have?
>
> This was tested with the Hansonite party. They were the most monumental
> cockup the nation has seen since idiot generals sent brave men to
slaughter in
> the
> trenches in WWI . Still they got more media coverage than a cult
masquerading
> as a genuine party deserved.. AND GOT THEIR ARSES KICKED AT THE
> POLLS. They are now what is technically termed a Spent Force, relegated,
> like your heroes Goebbles and Hitler, to THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.
> (Well, Howard does play footsie with the remnant, but he is just trying
> to play them as suckers again (they have that track record! B^p ) )
>
> To cut a long story short, despite some initial succeses, once their
policies
> were
> analysed in some detail they were RESOUNDINGLY REJECTED by the Australian
> people in favour of the parties which support multiculturalism and
together
> represent
> around 90% of the Australian people.
>
> Of course, facts mean nothing to you lunar right loonies.. so let me put
it in
> easy
> to remember musical form:
>
> "Ding Dong the Bitch is dead.. the Wicked Bitch, the mean ol Bitch..
>
> Ding Dong the Wicked BITCH IS DEAD!!!!!!!!! " B^D
>
> Sing along little munchkins... ;-)
>
> Che
> ------
> BTW, for the benefit of the youngins, I don't casually label
> just ANYONE a redneck...bigot .. Agora is known for his single
> (narrow) minded pursuit of redneck racist nazi bigotry. B^)
>
Agora
> Agora wrote:
> >
> > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> >
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
they
> > have?
>
>
> Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's lounge
> room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
>
> Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply don't
> give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they see
> fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they like
> being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> to.
Fine. If people want it its only right that they have it. We agree on that.
But you have avoided the question. If they dont want it (eg cut immigration
from non anglo nations, or abolish the government beaucracy) isnt it right
they not have it? Isnt it their democratic right?
Agora
> > >
> > > Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's
lounge
> > > room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> > > approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> > > street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> > > neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> > > of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> > > Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> > > refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
> > >
> > > Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> > > like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply
don't
> > > give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they
see
> > > fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> > > they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> > > has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> > > impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they
like
> > > being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> > > suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> > > who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> > > to.
>
>
> Yes, Max, it works everytime.
Interesting you agree with the Nazi party. Hitler always argued that history
went to the victors, and that if anybody who complained was killed, anybody
left alive agreed with you, therefore you were justified. The morality of
fascism was always fait accompli.
But then. Brian, I've always suspected you were not honest.
> > Well Australia isn't MC yet and stopping it
> > just means controlling immigration.
>
> Does it? Two thirds of the nation have at least one parent who was born
> overseas. They have been raised with the conscious knowledge that they
> are allowed to practice their parents' or a mixture of their parents'
> and Australian culture if they so desire to. The Djinni has been let
> out of the bottle and no matter how much you lost complain about it, its
> not going to take kindly to being stuffed back in.
>
> > As far as repressive laws go we seem to
> > be getting them courtesy of the MC mob who want to stop people
complaining
> > about all the problems of MC.
>
> *WHAT* "problems of MC"? MC is about tolerance. Most of the problems
> ascribed to MC is in reality caused by the _intolerance_ of individuals
> or groups, not the concept of MC, itself, per se. Just as the problems
> represented by religion are usually not the fault of the religious
> teachings, which preach the reverse usually but rather the result of the
> intolerance and hatred propagated by individuals.
>
>
>
>
Neville Duguid
> On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:05:21 GMT, nevi...@bigpond.net.au (Neville
> Duguid) wrote:
>
> >I don't wish to denigrate your sentiments here, stereotype, but we also
> >had fancydress balls at school when I was a kid.
>
> you wore a white sheet & a hood?
>
In the childhood fancydress ball that comes most vividly to mind I went
as a buccaneer - and won a prize for most authentic costume as "a
Spaniard"! - they had to call it out three times, I didn't realize they
were talking about me :)
> >We dressed up in all sorts of national costumes - as Dutch people with
> >stiff bonnets and clogs, Alladdin <Chinese), Eskimos (but only in
> >winter), that Arab with a magic carpet (forgotten his name).. We also
> >had a great time, forgot all our daytime squabbles, and all got on
> >famously for the rest of the evening. If our teacher had asked us to
> >dress up as our own ancestors, we might not have had as much variety in
> >our costumes, and hence not as much fun, but that would hardly have been
> >our fault..
>
> Same with me, if I had to do it when I was 7 I doubt I would have
> turned up wearing clogs. I probably would have gone looking like a
> good little soldier wearing my grandfather's war medals. The country
> has changed so much since I was a kid even, but there were plenty of
> fellow dutch/australians, greek/a, yugo/a, croat/a, serbian/a
> especially.
We also had a few "New Australian" kids - we didn't even know their
family name was supposed to be "foreign" until many years later after
I'd moved to the big smoke and started being able to discern such things
from the spelling. Sometimes not for *many* years later, as their
oldies had Anglecised their family names, and only when I met, eg,
someone from the Balkans without any vowels in their name, and heard
them pronounce it the same way as the more rationally spelled name of a
former classmate, did I even realize I had been to school with
first-generation Australians..
Aboriginal kids we knew as such, of course, but the ones who went to
school were, by definition, integrated. I don't ever remember them
sitting on the sidelines or being called anything that alluded to their
race.. If their parents weren't as well integrated (something I am not
claiming BTW) it was certainly not because of their race. Other
explanations need to be sought in places were there was discrimination.
The simplistic notion that Australians are somehow inherently racist is
demonstrably untrue based on all I have seen with my own eyes throughout
my life in Australia.
> >My only gripe with you is that you seem to hate your own contemporaries
> >based on nothing more than the way you categorize them for political
> >purposes, but think you've discovered the secret of eternal happiness
> >among their children. Merely because you assume they will all grow up to
> >view the world the same way you do.
>
> I assume nothing of the sort. I assume they will grow up in a totally
> different (and much improved) Australia than I did, I''m not romantic
> enough to assume it will be free from hate. Both Hitler and Mandela
> have been consumed by hatred at some time in their life. One was
> subjective then objective, the other was subjective, I'll leave it to
> you to decide which.
>
> >What I would like to know is where your hate came from in the first
> >place. You must have been brought up in a very different neighbourhood
> >to what I was. Being happy and capable of having a good time is a
> >universal quality of childhood. (They're not like that 24 hours a day,
> >of course, but give them something to enthrall their minds, and they all
> >turn into little angels - at least until they start getting tired and
> >grumpy again..
>
> I grew up in outer western sydney, it was an extremely tough and poor
> neighbourhood but my memories are happy. I spent my childhood consumed
> by cricket, tennis, rugby league and soccer, so I wasn't as poor as I
> could have been. It was completely free of hate by me or directed at
> me. When I was 15 I called a greek kid named victor a wog.* I was
> joking (being a wog myself) but he went berserk, even though I was
> twice his size. I apologised to him many times, he never landed a blow
> but he kept coming at me crying and swinging with rage. It made me
> realise a few things about myself and others and how people want to be
> treated.
So where did the idea that he was a "wog" come from? If you can't blame
your own parents and the society they belonged to, how can you
reasonably blame other people's parents if they behave the same as you
did? Eg when someone calls someone else a "wog" in a similarly
non-vicious manner do you ask them how many generations they have been
in Australia before deciding if it was "racially motivated" or not?
I mean, you got the full-blown reaction, so you can't assume that anyone
else would have needed to be more vicious in intent than you were in
turning someone into a "victim of racism". So in your victim's mind
(and in the minds of any social workers etc who might have become
involved) *you* are the nasty brutal spiteful racist you now assume the
rest of us are for (allegedly) causing similar reactions in others. If
that is the case, then what is your answer? Anglo-Australians spend
their entire lives walking on eggshells lest they accidentally say
something subject to misunderstanding by people who don't speak the
language, while everyone else is free to say anything they like?
Doesn't sound like "equality" to me.
> There was a hierarchy depending on sporting prowess which is one thing
> that hasn't much changed since I was a kid. I watch my nephew playing
> soccer and that is still evident. The kid that scores all the goals is
> the king. They can't help themselves, that's the way kids are.
>
> So where did my subjective hate come from? It was given to me by my
> grandfather and my father. My grandfather worked as a psychiatric
> nurse for 40 years when he got home from New Guinea. He experienced
> first hand what war does to people, then spent 40 years looking after
> many of those who were damaged by it. He fought in a war that was
> started by objective hate.
But whose hate? I hope you're not trying to infer that Aussie diggers
who enlisted were motivated by hate. (If so, *who* did they hate?) They
went either out of a sense of duty or quest for adventure, and towards
the end, to defend their homeland against a perceived threat of imminent
invasion.. They could see "the war" was going to be the next "big
thing", and like young men of every era, they didn't want to miss out on
the only real action likely to be happening during that time of their
lives..
> His life and those of plenty of his
> comrades were saved more than once by new guinea natives. He had a
> hatred of war and the sort of hate that starts them. His father died
> in France in 1916 along with one of his brothers.
OK your father hated war but he was a soldier. Usually soldiers are the
targets of 'anti-war' activists. I hope you can see, hating war as much
as you do, that blaming your grandfather or his own "hate" for WW2 is
not a rational response. Your logic would suggest - don't hate your own
grandfather - hate someone else's grandfather instead? Unless you're an
Anglo-Australian, of course, when the only one's grandfather you are
allowed to hate is your own. If you can't see the craziness in that
sort of thinking and the only place it can lead, a lot of us can.
> My father is the same. He was 9 when ww2 started. He left school when
> he was 11, his father was killed in France in 1942. There was no
> option but to leave school and do whatever he could to get food. He
> would grab the still burning coals from under the trains in Alkmaar
> (Holland) that were used to transport Jews from Holland to the
> concentration camps (this was to take the coal home to keep the family
> warm). More than once when he was scrounging under the trains for coal
> that wasn't dead he would hear people from inside the trains telling
> him and his friends to go away before the guards caught them and shot
> them. The trains were full of people being treated like cattle to be
> taken off to be gassed. His subjective hate comes from those
> incidents, the people that killed his father, that caused him to lose
> an education, that killed 8 of his 13 brothers and sisters due to
> hunger, etc. All that was caused by subjective hate.
I can understand the source of your hate. It's your need for revenge and
choice of target that I find irrational. A lot of people would blame
war, or the military, and just as likely pick your own grandfather as
their scapegoat (since he was a soldier, and the Aussie military also
interned POWs based on family origins, just like the Germans and just
about every other country involved in WW2 did etc)..
How does it do you, or your grandfather, or anyone else, any good?
> >If you think all you have to do is surround yourself with anyone at all
> >who is not Anglo Australian, and universal happiness will prevail for
> >the rest of your days, you could try emigrating to somewhere like New
> >York where multiculturalism reigns supreme..
>
> No, I don't assume that, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post
> wondered why 6-7 year old kids grow up to hate subjectively. I could
> put forward a few theories, might even do so one day. I don;t think
> any of them are biological, although it might have something to do
> with puberty and testosterone which changes kids.
That's where most of what I would regard as "racism" comes from. Young
guys do like to hang out with mates who go to great pains to look the
same and dress the same as each other. They do like to pelt goolies at
each others' treehouse.. Race isn't the cause. They do that sort of
thing regardless of who they decide "they" are, and regardless of who
they decide to target as their most convenient "enemy".
When I was young, the focus of life wasn't on eternal youth. Everyone,
including the young people concerned, assumed it was just a phase they
were passing through and would soon grow beyond it, which they
invariably did.
> >Do you really believe you
> >will be allowed to remain undisturbed in your mutual trust and goodwill
> >towards others just because no one else in the alleyway has the same
> >sort of ancestors as yourself?
>
> No. Not with people like you around.
That is an utterly spurious and gratuitous remark that can only cast
doubt on the sincerity of everything else you have said. If everyone
else in the alley was like me, everyone, yourself included, would be
perectly safe outdoors at all times. (In the absence of armed lunatics
and invaders, of course :)
> >Don't let me wake you from your dream, stereotype. I forgive you for
> >calling me a cunt. But I challenge you to test your theory by trying it
> >on the parents of those kids you favour on the basis of their ancestry
> >rather than their personal qualities as individuals. See if you receive
> >the same level of tolerance and understanding as you get from a crusty
> >old Anglo-Australian like me. Try calling their oldies cunts and see if
> >they're as tolerant as I am.
>
> I have no reason to. I have plenty of reason to call you that. I'll
> probably do it again.
Then how about telling us what your reason is - like a direct quote of
something *I* have said (not just something you or one of your cronies
has imagined I probably would have said but is too lazy to check before
quoting me on it)? You are the one who called a foreigner a wog, not me.
And you are *still* calling people names. You're the one who called me a
"cunt" after all, not the other way around. You think you have seen the
light. All you have done is switched targets - an innocent third party
who doesn't share your view that racism is a significant problem in
Australia today. Mainly because I have never seen racism in Australia
myself. Sure I have read about it and heard about it often enough from
people like you, but trying to find it in real life (except in
ethnocentric gang rivalry which Anglo-Australians don't normally
participate in) is like trying to locate a mirage. It's always
something I have to take someone else's word for, never something I have
seen first hand myself. (I've seen serious racial riots overseas, but -
apart from nightclub and street gang situations typically involving
youth, and most often involving drugs - I have never seen anything even
remotely like it in Australia).
I have sometimes seen people discriminated against to the extent they
tend to be passed over by others who are in a position where they are
forced to choose, but there is usually an obvious explanations apart
from the person's race to explain it. The problem comes from people who
think the *only* thing that explains any sort of non-idyllic behaviour
in the presence of a foreigner is the colour of his skin. Try applying
that to your class of multicultural kids when they grow up. None of them
would ever be allowed to utter an angry word about anything in the
presence of their peers without being declared a racist if you apply the
same standards to them. They will ultimately rebel and tell you to shove
your "Multiculturalism" if you try to keep them in such a behavioural
straightjacket for the term of their natural lives.
You may think that subscribing to brandname "Multiculturalism" gives you
some sort of licence to pick on people who used to encourage new
arrivals to join in without needing some official party directive to do
so - just because we used their own traditional word "assimmilation"
instead of your new proprietary brandname "Multiculturalism" to describe
our own way of doing the same thing.
All that reveals to me is either misguided ambition or monumental
ignorance about wider Australian society on your part. Australia has
always had three-cornered politics, meaning that not everyhone votes "A"
or "B", and therefore "B" is not automatically equivalent to "anti-A".
Just because party(s) "C" has shrunk to minority status in recent times
doesn't mean its members are identical in viewpoint to whichever of A or
B *you* happen to oppose. Some of us would prefer to keep calling
ourselves "C" even at the cost of perhaps never being adequately
represented in parliament again, such is our dislike for both "A" and
"B" and their inability to comprehend that we even exist let alone be
capable of representing us properly.
In other words, if you think the population has to be artificially
divided into Multiculturalists and AntiMulticulturalists so they can
tear each other apart trying to prove who is the least "racist", leave
us out of your crusade which has nothing to do with us, and which we
have never wanted any part of. And stop projecting the "anti" position
that means so much to you but means nothing to us onto us. We are not
racists and we believe people like you who seem to think some sort of
"battle of the races" is the next big thing in Aussie politics will have
to do their own dirty work, because we're just not interested in keeping
such issues at the focal point of Australian politics.
PS: For those who don't understand why I took exception to stereotype's
initial post (apart from him being one of a crowd who routinely brands
me a "racist" so they can quote each other rather than risk asking me
what I really do think) I saw it as an attempt to take credit for racial
harmony in Australia. I see "Multiculturalism" as a rip-off of the way
Australians have always done their best to accommodate new arrivals - or
at least those who are not brought here in numbers too large for our
community to absorb without the rest of us having to move out into
caravan parks in order to accommodate them.
Latching on to brandname "Multiculturalism" then trying to build a
constituency based on it by declaring anyone who won't subscribe, as
"anti-Multicultural" and therefore "racist", is an old ploy designed to
corner the "ethnic vote" - a strategy that of necessity requires
foreign-born Australians being kept apart from mainstream Australian
society - because if they ever became integrated they would no longer
need "Multicultural" political patronage, and thus become free to vote
like the rest of us according to personal preference rather than ethnic
loyalty artificially maintained by fear of virtually non-existent "white
Australian racism".
--
Neville Duguid * "He who lives by tactics dies by tactics" *
nevi...@bigpond.net.au * - a journo, on the occasion of *
Spare me, spam me not * Malcolm Fraser's downfall *
brian
> > Agora wrote:
> > >
> > > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> > >
> > > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
> they
> > > have?
> >
> >
> > Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's lounge
> > room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> > approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> > street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> > neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> > of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> > Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> > refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
> >
> > Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> > like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply don't
> > give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they see
> > fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> > they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> > has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> > impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they like
> > being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> > suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> > who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> > to.
>
> But you have avoided the question. If they dont want it (eg cut immigration
> from non anglo nations, or abolish the government beaucracy) isnt it right
> they not have it? Isnt it their democratic right?
They have the democratic right to reject gravity or redefine pi to
exactly 3, if they so desire, Agora. However, things will still fall
towards the centre of the earth and trying to determine the circumfrence
of a circle won't work if you use the value of 3 for pi.
Australians were given the chance to vote against Multiculturalism in
1998 when ON attempted to put the motion on the table. They rejected ON
overwhelmingly, therefore, ipso facto, they want Multiculturalism,
Agora.
brian
> > > >
> > > > Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's
> lounge
> > > > room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> > > > approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> > > > street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> > > > neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> > > > of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> > > > Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> > > > refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
> > > >
> > > > Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> > > > like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply
> don't
> > > > give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they
> see
> > > > fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> > > > they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> > > > has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> > > > impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they
> like
> > > > being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> > > > suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> > > > who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> > > > to.
> >
> >
> > Yes, Max, it works everytime.
>
> Interesting you agree with the Nazi party. Hitler always argued that history
> went to the victors, and that if anybody who complained was killed, anybody
> left alive agreed with you, therefore you were justified. The morality of
> fascism was always fait accompli.
> But then. Brian, I've always suspected you were not honest.
Agora, the only person who is being dishonest here, is yourself.
Drawing your conclusion from what I typed is commonly called a "strawman
argument".
In fact, there reference to "Max" was the "old ... plan" as in what
Maxwell Smart always said. ;-)
>
> > > Well Australia isn't MC yet and stopping it
> > > just means controlling immigration.
> >
> > Does it? Two thirds of the nation have at least one parent who was born
> > overseas. They have been raised with the conscious knowledge that they
> > are allowed to practice their parents' or a mixture of their parents'
> > and Australian culture if they so desire to. The Djinni has been let
> > out of the bottle and no matter how much you lost complain about it, its
> > not going to take kindly to being stuffed back in.
> >
> > > As far as repressive laws go we seem to
> > > be getting them courtesy of the MC mob who want to stop people
> complaining
> > > about all the problems of MC.
> >
> > *WHAT* "problems of MC"? MC is about tolerance. Most of the problems
> > ascribed to MC is in reality caused by the _intolerance_ of individuals
> > or groups, not the concept of MC, itself, per se. Just as the problems
> > represented by religion are usually not the fault of the religious
> > teachings, which preach the reverse usually but rather the result of the
> > intolerance and hatred propagated by individuals.
I'm surprised, Agora that you missed your chance. Not surprising really
considering your mindless hatred.
b_...@my-deja.com
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
But this is the sort of thing that happened before the term
"multiculturalism" was even thought of. Back then it WAS recognised that
people were from different backgrounds. Furthermore, people quite often
celebrated these different backgrounds (and were encouraged to do so).
The difference is that back then everyone accepted that Australia was an
Anglo country and that they all had to join the mainstream and "fit in".
Also immigration policy was such that differences between the new
arrivals and those already here were relatively minor and so there was
no difficulty in people from different backgrounds "melting in" to the
mainstream.
As your post inadvertently illustrates, the major haters these days are
lefties.
> Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids
> (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture. So
> many of these kids have at least one parent from another country that
> most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
>
> These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you wouldn't
> believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so empty of
> hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends, there was
> absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way they
> dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares. I don't mind
> telling you that I was so happy to see black/brown/white/yellow and
> all shades in between existing peacefully that I shed a couple of
> tears. 6'4", 17 stone, red hair, bikie beard, embarrassed to show how
> happy I was. When my nephew said "what's wrong uncle stereo" how was I
> going to explain it to him? How do you tell him you are looking at one
> of the most beautiful scenes it's ever been you good fortune to see?
> How do you explain that you are so happy because despite some of the
> vicious bastards that inhabit the internet and parliament house, there
> are still scenes that make you realise what a great country this is
> and what a great future it has. All I could tell him was that I had a
> headache.
>
> My nephew went along with a 60 year old pair of ice skates and a 90
> year old pair of clogs, and dutch clothes made for the day by his
> grandmother. They all brought food, food from so many countries you
> couldn't have tried a mouthful of food from all the countries even if
> you starved yourself for a week beforehand. He went around telling all
> the girls how beautiful they looked, every one of them, whatever their
> colour and whatever they looked like. Kids just don't care. If only
> their parents could be the same.
>
> Here's hoping that the majority of these kids grow up free of hate and
> free from parents like some of you vicious bastards. Here's hoping
> they don't have parents who routinely act out hateful feelings like
> jealousy, loathing, bitterness, contempt, disgust, irritation, to
> outright racist hate. Here's hoping their parents can think about
> maybe not passing on their ignorance to children who copy them with no
> thought as to how their behaviour affects others.
>
> I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. Hating is an art. Like
> any art, its mastery takes practice and discipline, and some of you
> people are masters of hate just like Vermeer, Van Gogh and Rembrandt
> were master painters. To hate well, you must be able to distinguish
> between your objective and subjective hate. You ust be willing to risk
> verbalising your objective hate and are determined to ride out the
> consequences of hating out loud or posting your hate filled diatribes
> on the internet. Objective hating resolves the conflicts that breed
> hate and transforms hate into its alternate feeling, love. Objective
> hating affirms life, whereas subjective hating affirms destruction and
> death.
>
> I freely admit that by typing this I am myself expressing hate, and I
> freely admit I hate some of you bastards with a passion. But my hate
> is objective (designed to get rid of subjective hate), whereas yours
> is subjective which stops some of you (and your children) from
> allowing others to enjoy their life to the full.
>
> Today I had feelings of pride from living in such a great country.
> Then I was reminded of some of you low-life cunts and realised there
> is still a lot of hate to be gotten rid of. Hate against homosexuals,
> lesbians, other cultures, there is still plenty of it out there. You
> can't destroy the beauty in your own country. You might be trying
> hard, but you're fighting a losing battle. There are too many people
> out there who know how lucky their kids are to be living in such a
> beautiful country. You dinosaurs are fighting a losing battle.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Agora
>
>
> Agora wrote:
>
> > Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> > Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> > think of it.
>
> You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
> those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
> stupid non sequitur....
The point is that the Arab kids would cheerfully tell you that were prepared
to kill Salman Rusdie as they paraded their MC gear to each other.
True or not?
> So who will win the hearts and minds of the One Nation remnant?
>
> As Agora shows, the SERIOUS right, your real Nazi's, are wooing the
> fringe nutters. Flattering, obsequious, seductive to the bitter hard
core
> racists and bigots.. but in this country they will always be a sideshow.
>
> The million who once made up One Nation are a much less extreme
> and more mottley crew.
> They include people who are concerned about issues like globalization,
> the GST and sale of telstra... the gutting of rural community services,
the
> death of towns.. many of these will drift back into mainstream
politics..
> probably via support for independents.
>
> The nats will try and win back those they see as their 'natural
constituency'
> (They deserve each other ;-)
>
> Howard will wear his akubra and pull stunts like the IVF posturing to
> try and ginger some support for the rural marginals he is going to lose
> because
> of telstra, the GST, petrol and interest rates...
>
> The ALP, as Bracks has shown will attract a lot of the realistic
dissaffected
> who have learnt they just have to become more volatile voters, squeaky
wheels,
>
> if they want oiling.
>
> But the ALP never bent on issues like Multiculti.. they stayed firm
right
> throughout the Hanson push, when Johhnnie wavered and looked to the polls!
> B^p
>
> True he came back to endorse M/C once he sussed which way the wind was
> blowing, but some of those hardcore racists will overlook hypocrisy..
> because lets face it.. their whole philosophy is BUILT on it! B^p
>
> I just think he, and the PHONie hard core, are mistaken if they
> overestimate the latent racism in the electorate. As I advised
> Mackay two years ago, lose the racism, Australians hate that shit..
> If you become a genuine party of decency and political change..
> you will go from strength to strength.. But they didn't..
> and the Australian people discarded them.
>
> So lets leave Nev Goering in his pretty pink suit.. to bask in the warm
praise
>
> of his Leader, ....because praise from Nazi's like Agora is enough to make
> any decent persons skin crawl. B^p
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rebecca
I loved it.
Logical paradoxes aside, though, people who try to dismiss one's argument
because Hitler might conceivably have approved of it are utterly illogical.
Their Pavlovian response would suggest that I can't be an environmentalist
because Hitler was a greenie. Or I have to smoke tobacco because Hitler was
a non-smoker. Or I have to eat meat because Hitler was a vegetarian. Or I
can't drive on CityLink because Hitler built lots of freeways.
I really couldn't care all that much about Hitler. He died long before I was
born. He is not, for me, a "touch-stone" about what I can or can't do,
think, or try. I will always just be me, and if anyone tries to use "Mr
Boogeyman Hitler" to pull me into line I will respond just as I would if
some medieval Christian tried to say my behaviour proved I was having
"congess with the devil".
At least things have improved in one way. In the middle ages a Christian
could have shovelled the "satan" accusation at me, and I would have been
apprehended and searched for a mole or some other "proof" of satanism. Then
I would have been burned.
Now all that can happen is that an immature little twerp like Che will
chorus "Hitler, Hitler, Hitler ..." at me. And I'm meant to tremble in my
stilletoes when this happens!
Gee, I can't put on my mascara for fear and trembling!
Jacques Chester <jacques...@student.usyd.ee-dee-you.au> wrote in
message news:8mh6l5$q1c$1...@spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rebecca <reb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:0yPi5.24859$c5.7...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > Have you ever heard of the Usenet rule known as Godwin's law?
> >
> > It states: "As a Usenet thread grows, the probability of a
> > reference to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.00. Corollary: When such
> > a reference is made, it is generally recognised that the poster has
> > lost the argument."
>
> http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/mar98/0241.html
>
> An excellent summary of the logic paradoxes
> contained in Godwin's Law, some of the
> many amusing corollaries, and a link to a
> story by Godwin explaining that it was an
> experiment in 'memology'. Godwin deliberately
> set out to create an artificial "meme" and
> was wildly successful.
>
> All harks back to the Golden Era of netnews,
> doesn't it? :)
>
> be well;
>
> JC.
>
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>
>
>
Agora
> > > Agora wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > >
> > > > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > > > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights
do
> > they
> > > > have?
> > >
> > >
> > > Would you create a special MultiC police force? Bug everybody's
lounge
> > > room to make sure they aren't speaking in a language other than that
> > > approved by people such as yourself? Put your MultiC police on every
> > > street corner? Have them raid every wedding, funeral, bar mitzvah or
> > > neo-Nazi poofta-bashing (ooops, sorry, thats right, you like that sort
> > > of thing don't you, so it couldn't be circumscribed, now could it?)?
> > > Have the MultiC police controlling concentration camps for those who
> > > refuse to be nice, white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic people?
> > >
> > > Multiculturalism is, despite all the moaning and groaning from fools
> > > like yourself, here to stay. Its here because most people simply
don't
> > > give a damn and want to be left alone to live _their_ lives as they
see
> > > fit without interference from idiots who want to dictate to them how
> > > they should live. Either like it or lump it, Agora, multiculturalism
> > > has now reached such a critical mass in our society that it is
> > > impossible to stop the chain reaction - people have discovered they
like
> > > being tolerant and refuse to return to the bad old days which you
> > > suggest should prevail where intolerance, racism and hatred determined
> > > who you could talk or rather not talk to and what you wouldn't listen
> > > to.
> >
that.
> > But you have avoided the question. If they dont want it (eg cut
immigration
> > from non anglo nations, or abolish the government beaucracy) isnt it
right
> > they not have it? Isnt it their democratic right?
>
> They have the democratic right to reject gravity or redefine pi to
> exactly 3, if they so desire, Agora. However, things will still fall
> towards the centre of the earth and trying to determine the circumfrence
> of a circle won't work if you use the value of 3 for pi.
I'm glad we agree they have the right. But ON was crushed by the media and
political elite and they really didn't get a decent chance. But Brian, do
you realise that by agreeing with me that the right to reject MC is a
fundamental democratic right, you are a racist? Are you agreeing with me
that the people have the democratic right to vote for racism, slavery,
torture, the death penalty, etc. if they want? That is what I argue. I dont
argue they would be morally right in doing so, but I argue they have the
democratic right nevertheless. Do you realise this makes you wicked and evil
in the eyes of almost any right thinking person?
> Australians were given the chance to vote against Multiculturalism in
> 1998 when ON attempted to put the motion on the table. They rejected ON
> overwhelmingly, therefore, ipso facto, they want Multiculturalism,
> Agora.
Except opinion surveys show they dont.
brian
>
> "Che Guava" <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:398ACAC5...@my-deja.com...
> >
> >
> > Agora wrote:
> >
> > > Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> > > Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> > > think of it.
> >
> > You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
> > those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
> > stupid non sequitur....
>
> The point is that the Arab kids would cheerfully tell you that were prepared
> to kill Salman Rusdie as they paraded their MC gear to each other.
>
> True or not?
Most probably not. The majority of Arabs in Australia are in fact
christians, Agora, not Muslim. Furthermore, most Arabs are Sunni, not
Shi'te and it was the Shi'a sect which passed the Fatwah against
Rushdie. As usual, your effort at racial (or in this case religious)
stereotyping falls flat on its face.
Che Guava
Agora wrote:
> "Che Guava" <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:398AC596...@my-deja.com...
> >
> >
> > Agora wrote:
> >
> > > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> > >
> > > Just 1 question.
>
> I dont know if you realise this but you have actually agreed with me.
At this point I haven't even spoken, dipshit! B^D
You are talking to yourself! But as you post so much unspeakable
racist codswallop, you must be used to talking to no one but yourself.
> All I said was - do Australians have the democratic right to reject MC?
No, that was just the FIRST question you asked, dipshit..
You went on to ask TWO others!
1+2=3 to all of us, but to braindead morons like you, who lack
teh intelligence even to take correction.. it probably equals "pumpkin scone"!
B^p
> Your answer shows that you agree,
poor idiot, he can't even UNDERSTAND what hes told when it's SIMPLE
ARITHEMTIC! And he pretends to lecture us all on social engineering! B^p
> that you think they have the right, but that
> they have voted for MC by not voting for PH. Fine. We agree they have the
> right.
But in here, your fellow travellers in the Townsville Taliban wont
accept the legitimacy of the democratic process. (try asking
Ned Latham about parliamentary democracy! 8^o)
Naturally, coming from a party like One Nation they had a very poor
grasp of democratic principles, because that whole charade was a cross
between a multinational company led by a Bolshevic Troika, and a cult! B^p
> I dont agree that ON was able to compete on a level playing field,
Of course not, they got FAR more media coverage and airtime than
bigger parties like the Greens and democrats! Hanson had security guards
on the public purse, and interviews on every prime time station,
..and they nearly defrauded the taxpayer of another $500,000
Jesus, any other political group with that sort of media access
would be in government by now! But of course, being a party
of scapegoats and division, like yours, they constantly tore
themselves apart. EVERY major stuffup was either a direct
result of One nation itself, or it's many factions and schisms
calling each other 'traitors'.
They PROVED, to anyone who didn't know it already, that
people who can't get along with others, who preach intolerance
and use scapegoats and the politics of division, will die from
the natural consequence.... disunity.
That is the real reason that the 1000 year reich lasted less than a decade,
while that great multicultural melting pot, the USA, for all its problems,
is the wealthiest, most powerful and most dynamic society on earth.
(But not the best! ;-) Now if they could address the remaining spiritual
sickness from slavery and the remnant racism..(and overcome their
addiction to the love of money and the social inequalities it brings..)
they would become a paradise!
> and I think that the major parties and the media still conspire to not
> debate the issue so that the mug public has no choice.
We debate it here on Usenet, and the outcome is the same..
the majority want UNITY in DIVERSITY, tolerance and
multiculturalism.
> But thats beside the point. The point is that you agree that MC
> should be subject to the democratic mandate.
No.. see, not only can't you COUNT, but you can't
comprehend.
My point is that MC IS an expression of the democratic mandate.
Look, Howard is a shrewd pollie, gormless, but schrewd.
When he feared Paulines impact on 'his' voters, especially all the defectors
from the more conservative nationals, he soft pedalled on One Nation,
wouldn't attack pauline, and even tried some preference swaps.
For a year or so you couldn't get the frightened lieelt runt to even SAY
multiculti! B^D
But when his political antenna told him what all decent Aussies always knew,
that Hansonism was running out of scapegoats to blame for everything,
he RE-ITERATED his dormant 'support' for multiculturalism!
He's a poll driven weakling with no vision, and therefore his embrace of
multiculturalism is merely a recognition, that it is what people want!
Shit man.. most of us have recent immigrant wives, husbands, brother in laws,
friends or mates! We know they aren't the problem! B^p
> > You seem to have the numeracy problems common in dumb as pigshit
> > redneck racist Nazi bigots. :-) There are THREE questions here.. B^D
> >
> > admittedly, taken together they don't amount to ONE decent question..
> > but if you take your socks off you can probably confirm the tally:
> >
Once more, for the slow boy:
Question One;
>
> > > What if Australians dont want MC?
Question Two:
> > > Do thay have the democratic right to reject it or not?
Question Three:
> > > If not, what democratic rights do they have?
> >
BTW don't feel bad, Rebecca can't count either: B^D
you should read this, for the maths lesson as well
as the ideas:
_____________repost _________________________________
Rebecca wrote:
> Agora <ag...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:RPyi5.24484$c5.6...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> >
> > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights do
> > they have?
> >
>
> Actually, that's two questions.
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAA!
How many? B^D
Lets check: (Socks off, Townsville Taliban! ;-)
"What if Australians dont want MC?"
...That's ONE little piggy
"Do thay have the democratic right to reject it or not?"
...that's TWO little piggies
"If not, what democratic rights do they have?"
.. that's THREE little piggies! B^p
Look, you see those little wiggly things at the end of the sentences"?"
....they are a dead give-away! B^D
> In reply to question 1:
"What if Australians dont want MC?"
> Clearly not.
True, it's clearly not the case that Australians don't want MC.
The only party which ran on an explicit anti-MC platform is now
as dead as mutton. Ans the parties which 90-95% of Australains
choose SUPPORT multiculturalism.
Hell it's even written into our beloved aus.culture.trueblue CHARTER!
I quote:
"The "True Blue" name is used with the local (Australian) meaning.
By no means is it intended to specifically suggest this culture is the
only "genuine" culture within Australia's multicultural society."
So there you have it. THIS NG DRAWS IT'S LEGITIMACY DIRECTLY
FROM A DOCUMENT WHICH PROCLAIMS THAT WE ARE
PART OF, AND GUARANTEED BY, MULTICULTURALISM!!!! B^D
Oh dear, I bet YOU feel foolish to find yourself, and your negativity
towards all your fellow Australians who ARE multicultural,
IN THE WRONG NG!
Bye! B^D
> I don't want MC because I live in one of the most MC places in Australia
Oh boo hoo! B^p
THE WORLD IS MULTICULTURAL! Where are you planning to go?
I reckon this is the BEST damn country in the world! And I am tired
of you negative whiners knocking it! If you don't like multiculturalism..
why don't you go back to Bavaria! B^D
<snip>
> (However, if anyone tries to link me to that dimwit from Ipswitch who
> couldn't even read the book that was written for her, and published by her
> silly party, I will be offended.)
No chance of that.. she was far more consistent and rational than you are. ;-)
> In reply to question 2:
"Do thay have the democratic right to reject it or not?"
> None.
Well, of course, you Taliban think YOU have ALL the rights,
so it comes as no surprise to see you denying them to everyone
else.
Us genuine trueblues disagree, we believe in rights, and
A FAIR GO FOR ALL!
> We have no right to national or cultural self-determination.
It doesn't matter how stridently you deny our rights, you are just plain wrong!
<snip>
> Sorry, Agora, but I think we've had it.
Yes, the Townsville Taliban were defeated the first time an honest trueblue
stood up to them.. it just takes a long while for the realization to dawn
on the more obtuse..... B^D
Victory belongs to the Multicultural majority, It is a democracy,
not a perfect one, but one of teh best, most peaceful and prosperous
multicultural societies on the planet! LETS CELEBRATE! B^D
BTW, If you learn the tolerance the majority of Australians demonstrate,
you can stay. ;-)
_______________________________________________
Che Guava
Agora wrote:
> "Che Guava" <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:398ACAC5...@my-deja.com...
> >
> >
> > Agora wrote:
> >
> > > Brilliant post Neville. He could ask the Arabic kids what they think of
> > > Salman Rushdie, but he was probably too busy with his own reflections to
> > > think of it.
> >
> > You could ask the local Taliban why they declare Fatwahs against
> > those who disagree with them.. but it would be no more relevant than your
> > stupid non sequitur....
>
> The point is that the Arab kids would cheerfully tell you that were prepared
> to kill Salman Rusdie as they paraded their MC gear to each other.
>
> True or not?
Not.
Do you really think 'Arab kids' is a monolitihic descriptor? B^p
But why should your ignorant questions be answered, when you can't
address all the ones put to in the post you are responding to..
Try and show some intellectual rigour,
or you will be seen as a pathetic lightweight like Gary.
The questions are those ones with the squigly thing at the end
of the sentance, although you are welcome to comment on
statements and issues as well. It seems only fair that you
receive responses commensurate with your own:
Greg Hodges
around this ng like fly's to dogshit would realise that the ONLY hope we
have for the future is our kids.
I made a similar posting a little while back and was met with the same sort
of crap from the same big mouthed gutless low life scum sicking maggots that
you experianced.
Kids aren't born with hatred....Like toilet training we have to teach them,
It's just too bad that it seems easier for some to teach hatred instead of
tolerance.
AUSTRALIA is the best country and as Australians we have choices....
--
,-._|\ Greg Hodges
/ Oz \ Transport Services
\_,--._/ greghodg...@optusnet.com.au
v
When a simpleton abused him, Buddha listened to him in silence,
but when the man had finished asked him, "Son, if a man declined
to accept a present offered to him, to whom would it belong?"
The man answered "To him who offered it."
"My son," Buddha said, "I decline to accept your abuse.
Keep it for yourself."
- Will Durant The Story of Civilization.
stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> [..]
> >
> > Bit late, Stereo. You and all of us would have been better served if
> > you'd had enough knowkedge of, and pride in, Australia to resist the
> > bullshit that the racists, sexists, homophiles and multiculturalists
> > disseminate.
>
> No THERE speaks a person who knows which side of the fence HE belongs!
Gawd, stone the crows! You got something right, Spazzo! Some sort of
accident, I presume?
--
Ned ++++++ Democracy means "the people rule".
Forget the republic: fight for the power of assent.
To reply, cut out my nose and make the met a net.
Ned Latham
>
> I don't actually "hate" anyone. I am bewildered by the world in which we
> live........................to me, it's fascinating. Please, stereotype,
> don't tar us all with the same brush..........
He can't help it, Lynn. He thinks in stereotypes.
brian
>
> "brian" <bria...@dragon.net.au> wrote in message
> news:398CEA49...@dragon.net.au...
> > Agora wrote:
> > >
> > > "brian" <bria...@dragon.net.au> wrote in message
> > > news:398AD2D9...@dragon.net.au...
> > > > Agora wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > news:sbkiossrr9nm22bm2...@4ax.com...
> > > > > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The
> > > > >
> > > > > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > > > > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights
> do
> > > they
> > > > > have?
> > > >
Interesting conclusion to come to, Agora. Since when, in politics were
opponents meant to be given a "decent chance"? That aside though, I'd
dispute that the media did not give them a decent chance. If one reads
the various books around the traps, such as Margot Kingston's, one finds
that in reality the media actually bent over nearly backwards trying to
give them more than a "decent chance" being far more tolerant and
lenient towards them than they needed to be. The PHONies on the
otherhandjust kept putting their foots deeper into it at every turn.
Idiotic policies which didn't stand the light of properly examination
and analysis coupled with fools in charge who didn't know their arses
from their elbows.
> But Brian, do
> you realise that by agreeing with me that the right to reject MC is a
> fundamental democratic right, you are a racist? Are you agreeing with me
> that the people have the democratic right to vote for racism, slavery,
> torture, the death penalty, etc. if they want?
A, guilt by association, hey, Agora? Sorry, doesn't work. Simply
agreeing that people have the right to decide, almost anything their
hearts' desire via democratic process does _not_ mean that I, myself am
a racist. All I've said is that they have the right to make the
decision, I have not attempted to declare their decision the correct
one. if I had, then I would be, as you attempt to imply, as guilty as
those making the decision. I haven't therefore I am divorced from the
decision.
> That is what I argue. I dont
> argue they would be morally right in doing so, but I argue they have the
> democratic right nevertheless. Do you realise this makes you wicked and evil
> in the eyes of almost any right thinking person?
I suspect that you are applying very loose logic here, Agora but thats
nothing new for you, now is it?
> > Australians were given the chance to vote against Multiculturalism in
> > 1998 when ON attempted to put the motion on the table. They rejected ON
> > overwhelmingly, therefore, ipso facto, they want Multiculturalism,
> > Agora.
>
> Except opinion surveys show they dont.
Produce them please, Agora. Show me a reference to an opinion poll
taken today or yesterday or even last week which makes that point,
please. Otherwise, as I pointed out sometime ago, you are attempting to
claim something which doesn't exist.
Seppo Renfors
Kolu Koleff wrote:
>
> "Sean" wrote :
> >Most war and race hate comes from jealousy and >greed - the racism is just
> an
> > excuse to get mad enough to kill each other.
> >
> > ie Slavery - primarily driven by greed not by default hatred for the
> slaves
> > race.
> > ie Territorial or resource disputes - greed and jealousy between have and
> > have-nots
> Kolu: Whether race (more broadly ethnicity/culture/religion/ideology)
> differences are the prime cause of the bulk of the world's violence is a
> matter for debate but they certainly appear to be associated with mass
> violence around the world.
> > Also when time passes after these situations the hatred is then bred into
> > children by parents and govt's but the source is not some spine tingling
> > repulsion that one gene has for another - its the family unit that is
> > responsible
> > sorry if im rambling
> Kolu: It's true that racism can be taught but for it to be so prevalent a
> human condition a genetic predisposition to racism subject to cultural
> modification seems likely. I'm not saying that people are born as super
> racists but I think the tendency is there. Remember that genetics are about
> survival not so much of the individual but of the group to which the
> individual belongs. After all to preserve your group even at the cost of
> your own life is to preserve and ensure the passing on of your group's ( and
> hence your own ) DNA. This just happens because if it didn't happen the
> group's DNA simply would have died out. Racism perhaps springs from a
> mechanism of group survival on a genetic level with its human characters
> having no real understanding of why they really hate another racial group.
THAT has the be some of the most idiotic twaddle since Molsey's last
post! This is not more than Agora's Master Race dribble. It hasn't got
a single scientific fact to back it up. This Kolu (should be Tofu, as
it is as soft as in the head) has looked up a few nice new words like
"genetic" and "DNA" then taken a WILD guess at their functions, and is
now out to make a King Idiot of himself. The "race" he is talking
about getting "wiped out" is the HUMAN race.
> Also perhaps this "hate what isn't genetically like you" idea is
> misinterpreted at a higher level in the human mind
Well there is no possibility of Kolu having that problem -there IS no
"higher level" in his mind. Fact is the HUMANS are within 1.5% of a
CHIMP in genetic makeup.... perhaps Kolu is a kind of a throw-back to
that level!
> and is instinctively
> applied to different races, religions and so on without a survival penalty
> to DNA.
This is going from the ridiculous to the laughable... RELIGION is in
the DNA... This twit could have a real interesting discussion with
"Death" about "religion" having invaded not only politics totally but
the DNA as well! THAT I'd like to see!
> Their is also the concept of projection where people attack in
> others what they deny in themselves. What better way to deny your own racism
> than to see yourself as an anti racist.
This is the standard HARD CORE racist's statement, "Because I AM a
racist, means I'M NOT a racist, but a non racist is really a
racist..." Shit, even AGORA makes more sense with his Master Race
Nazi propaganda and he is a known idiot!!
[a mercy snip for the rest]
--
SIR -Philosopher Unauthorised
------------------------------------------------------------------
" Don't resent getting old. A great many are denied that privilege "
---------------------------------------------------------------
Seppo Renfors
Kolu Koleff wrote:
>
> "stereotype" <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:qs0lossenb5531p02...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:39:55 +1000, "Rebecca" <reb...@bigpond.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >In the inner Melbourne suburb where I live the kids have been taught
> > >multiculturalism since Prep. The nearest Primary School serves as a
> polling
> > >booth at election time, and according to our local weekly paper it
> returned
> > >the highest pro-Republic vote in Australia at the last referendum. That
> > >report may have been wrong, and I wouldn't know where to check its
> accuracy,
> >
> > Carlton North? It was the highest I think.
> > Mine was Turner Public School (ACT). I think it was 3rd highest Yes
> > vote. Most of the voters are white/middle class.
> Are you saying it's a bad thing to be white/middle class? Maybe in the
> interests of democracy they shouldn't be allowed to vote!
> Regards Kolu.
Who needs to vote on it? If you don't like being part off it, you've
always got access to boot polish!
Seppo Renfors
Kolu Koleff wrote:
>
> "Seppo Renfors" <sren...@invalid.adelaide.on.net> wrote in message
> news:398C3B82...@invalid.adelaide.on.net...
> >
> >
> > Ned Latham wrote:
> > >
> > > stereotype wrote in <342losgebet89vfc9...@4ax.com>:
> > > > Rebecca wrote:
> > >
> > [..]
> > >
> > > > The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group of
> > > > people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> > > > another.
> > >
> > > Crap. Those peoples have hated each other for centuries. What kept
> > > them from each others' throats in the past was their subjection to
> > > other peoples' empires: notably, Turkey, Austria-Hungary and in this
> > > century until recently, Yugoslavia. Now NATO's carrying the bag.
> > >
> > > The Turkish and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were multicultural;
> > > Yugoslavia was monocultural. Nothing those empires did improved the
> > > attitudes of the Balkan peoples to each other: not the tolerance; not
> > > the repression; not even the enforcement of good behaviour over the
> > > last 700 odd years. What makes you think things will work differently
> > > here?
> >
> > Ned you actually managed to disprove everything you said, that I did a
> > mercy snip on. You definitely got this bit right "Yugoslavia was
> > monocultural", and that is EXACTLY what led to the latest war there.
> > You are advocating the same Yugoslavia monoculture for Australia, and
> > the result from that WILL be the same as there. This is as sure as day
> > follows night.
> Yes Seppo but only if we create a Yugoslavia in the first place which is
> what a lot of do gooders in Australia seem to be aiming at. Yugoslavia
> wasn't monocultural but the inter cultural clashes were minimised by
> repressive regimes of the past. If you really want an authoritarian
> government or the fragmentation of Australia into separate nation states MC
> is the way to go.
> Regards Kolu.
DO you actually have ANY IDEA what the hell you are talking about???
Let me explain what you are suggesting.
1- A racially/ethnically oppressive government is desirable in
Australia.
2- People advocating; "people of many cultures living in harmony" is
"creating a Yugoslavia" of a horrible atrocities against selected
minorities, based on the place of their ancestors birth.
3- That "people of many cultures living in harmony" will result in
separate nation within Australia.
YOU are nuttier that a nut loaf - perhaps you are actually posting
from the loony bin! Listen buddy, those people dressed in white around
you AREN'T ANGELS!
Seppo Renfors
Kolu Koleff wrote:
>
> "Seppo Renfors" .
> >
> > THAT has nothing to do with "multiculturalism", it is a convenient peg
> > to hang a bigoted hat on. What you see is not particularly race
> > related. Gangs and gang warfare exists for different reasons.
> > Elizabeth was know for many gangs, rival gangs and they were manly
> > poms, but fighting each other.
> >
> > The picture you attempt to paint with your use of the term PC and
> > "ethnic gangs" etc are to further division, that is then a self
> > perpetuation thing. There is "PC" of many kinds, that of the likes of
> > Neville & Co and that "Anglo PC's" you refer to. It is merely a matter
> > of view point.
Listen TOFU, I'm not going to respond to any of that until you learn a
couple of things.
1- You space your text at least a line apart from mine (in case it
gets infected :-), so the whole post becomes readable.
2- You start to get some LOGIC into your statements. You learn the
meaning of words, acronyms and terms. Be they the NAZI line you're
pushing or whatever crazy notions you have, but it is quite impossible
to do more than ridicule your normal gobbledegook, as it is far to
absurd for anything else!
Seppo Renfors
Neville Duguid wrote:
>
> stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:05:21 GMT, nevi...@bigpond.net.au (Neville
> > Duguid) wrote:
> >
> > >I don't wish to denigrate your sentiments here, stereotype, but we also
> > >had fancydress balls at school when I was a kid.
> >
> > you wore a white sheet & a hood?
> >
> In the childhood fancydress ball that comes most vividly to mind I went
> as a buccaneer - and won a prize for most authentic costume as "a
> Spaniard"! - they had to call it out three times, I didn't realize they
> were talking about me :)
Ah well, you win a price as a kid for masquerading.... well there
could well be another "award" for you for the same effort even now :-)
>
[..]
> > Same with me, if I had to do it when I was 7 I doubt I would have
> > turned up wearing clogs. I probably would have gone looking like a
> > good little soldier wearing my grandfather's war medals. The country
> > has changed so much since I was a kid even, but there were plenty of
> > fellow dutch/australians, greek/a, yugo/a, croat/a, serbian/a
> > especially.
>
> We also had a few "New Australian" kids - we didn't even know their
> family name was supposed to be "foreign" until many years later after
Now your starting to demonstrate where it comes from "didn't even know
their family name was supposed to be "foreign"..." You LEARNED people
were "FOREIGN" based on their name... not their actual nationality or
anything real. An "us" and "them" had now emerged in your mind and it
is still stuck there!!
> I'd moved to the big smoke and started being able to discern such things
> from the spelling.
Here you are demonstrating a further LEARNING on how to categorize
people into the "us" and "them".
> Sometimes not for *many* years later, as their
> oldies had Anglecised their family names, and only when I met, eg,
> someone from the Balkans without any vowels in their name, and heard
> them pronounce it the same way as the more rationally spelled name of a
> former classmate, did I even realize I had been to school with
> first-generation Australians..
And again shows a LEARNING process to segregate people into an "us"
and "them". As you say in the very last bit, it didn't matter a hoot
to you up till that point!
>
> Aboriginal kids we knew as such, of course, but the ones who went to
> school were, by definition, integrated. I don't ever remember them
> sitting on the sidelines or being called anything that alluded to their
> race..
I didn't think you would, considering the discussion we had many years
ago now, were you expressed a wish to be able to call people by ugly
names, as you used to in the past, names now considered offensive!
Such things were no skin of your nose was it?
> If their parents weren't as well integrated (something I am not
> claiming BTW) it was certainly not because of their race. Other
> explanations need to be sought in places were there was discrimination.
Ahhhh..... I was wondering when it would surface! Read all together it
now makes a sort of sense. Neville says "WHEN there was any
discrimination against aborigines, it was because they were not well
integrated". In other words, NEVILLE is shifting the BLAME for the
existing discrimination (that he acknowledges did exist) on the
ABORIGINES! It is THEIR FAULT they were discriminated against! Again
not because of their race, but because they did not CONFORM to his
notions -that he couldn't call them "boongs" or whatever without them
taking offence!
> The simplistic notion that Australians are somehow inherently racist is
> demonstrably untrue based on all I have seen with my own eyes throughout
> my life in Australia.
Correct. and you have demonstrated it well. It is a LEARNED process
that you did learn over a period of time. Trouble is you never grew up
to manage to quite think for yourself, and UNLEARN these obviously
wrong attitudes you hold to this day.
>
[..]
> >
> > I grew up in outer western sydney, it was an extremely tough and poor
> > neighbourhood but my memories are happy. I spent my childhood consumed
> > by cricket, tennis, rugby league and soccer, so I wasn't as poor as I
> > could have been. It was completely free of hate by me or directed at
> > me. When I was 15 I called a greek kid named victor a wog.* I was
> > joking (being a wog myself) but he went berserk, even though I was
> > twice his size. I apologised to him many times, he never landed a blow
> > but he kept coming at me crying and swinging with rage. It made me
> > realise a few things about myself and others and how people want to be
> > treated.
>
> So where did the idea that he was a "wog" come from? If you can't blame
> your own parents and the society they belonged to, how can you
> reasonably blame other people's parents if they behave the same as you
> did? Eg when someone calls someone else a "wog" in a similarly
> non-vicious manner do you ask them how many generations they have been
> in Australia before deciding if it was "racially motivated" or not?
WHHHHhhhhhhhoooooosssssssSSSSS..... straight over your head!
You don't get it do you. To YOU it seems natural, to call someone by
a name in such a "non-vicious manner". then when they DO get upset,
YOU BLAME IT ON THEM - their fault you say. You start mumbling about
generations and garbage, and CAN'T fathom that whilst it was intended
in no way to be offensive, in reality IT WAS to the other person. It
isn't THEIR fault it was said, is it. Therefor neither can it be THEIR
FAULT. "Stereo" LEARNED something from this. YOU on the other had ARE
UNABLE TO - even to this day, learn from the example. Instead you
would "ask them how many generations they have been" here!!
>
> I mean, you got the full-blown reaction, so you can't assume that anyone
> else would have needed to be more vicious in intent than you were in
> turning someone into a "victim of racism". So in your victim's mind
> (and in the minds of any social workers etc who might have become
> involved) *you* are the nasty brutal spiteful racist you now assume the
> rest of us are for (allegedly) causing similar reactions in others.
Hang on there, yes he admitted making a mistake - THAT IS THE POINT -
he LEARNED from it. YOU haven't ever learned the difference at all,
still haven't a clue.
> If
> that is the case, then what is your answer? Anglo-Australians spend
> their entire lives walking on eggshells lest they accidentally say
> something subject to misunderstanding by people who don't speak the
> language, while everyone else is free to say anything they like?
> Doesn't sound like "equality" to me.
Didn't I say you hadn't learned?? - despite a very graphic
description of cause and effect?? See you instead jump onto your
favourite bandwagon of "poor fellah me - Oh woe me", just because you
WANT to remain intolerant and bigoted. THIS is what that discussion
was about all those years ago, when you wanted to carry on with the so
called "friendly" name calling of people. I told you then that it
isn't on, and I tell you again -it still isn't on. It doesn't wash at
all, that is merely hiding under your security blanket. It is about
time to grow up and open your eyes!!
>
> > There was a hierarchy depending on sporting prowess which is one thing
> > that hasn't much changed since I was a kid. I watch my nephew playing
> > soccer and that is still evident. The kid that scores all the goals is
> > the king. They can't help themselves, that's the way kids are.
> >
> > So where did my subjective hate come from? It was given to me by my
> > grandfather and my father. My grandfather worked as a psychiatric
> > nurse for 40 years when he got home from New Guinea. He experienced
> > first hand what war does to people, then spent 40 years looking after
> > many of those who were damaged by it. He fought in a war that was
> > started by objective hate.
>
> But whose hate? I hope you're not trying to infer that Aussie diggers
> who enlisted were motivated by hate. (If so, *who* did they hate?)
Stay with it.. don't disappear on bloody tangents again! There was a
lot of bigotry around back in those days - even OFFICIAL bigotry, they
also grew up with that.
[snip Nev goofing off to tilt at windmills]
>
> > His life and those of plenty of his
> > comrades were saved more than once by new guinea natives. He had a
> > hatred of war and the sort of hate that starts them. His father died
> > in France in 1916 along with one of his brothers.
>
> OK your father hated war but he was a soldier. Usually soldiers are the
> targets of 'anti-war' activists. I hope you can see, hating war as much
> as you do, that blaming your grandfather or his own "hate" for WW2 is
> not a rational response. Your logic would suggest - don't hate your own
> grandfather - hate someone else's grandfather instead? Unless you're an
> Anglo-Australian, of course, when the only one's grandfather you are
> allowed to hate is your own. If you can't see the craziness in that
> sort of thinking and the only place it can lead, a lot of us can.
No... he's lost it now... gone off chasing his own tail!
>
> > My father is the same. He was 9 when ww2 started. He left school when
> > he was 11, his father was killed in France in 1942. There was no
> > option but to leave school and do whatever he could to get food. He
> > would grab the still burning coals from under the trains in Alkmaar
> > (Holland) that were used to transport Jews from Holland to the
> > concentration camps (this was to take the coal home to keep the family
> > warm). More than once when he was scrounging under the trains for coal
> > that wasn't dead he would hear people from inside the trains telling
> > him and his friends to go away before the guards caught them and shot
> > them. The trains were full of people being treated like cattle to be
> > taken off to be gassed. His subjective hate comes from those
> > incidents, the people that killed his father, that caused him to lose
> > an education, that killed 8 of his 13 brothers and sisters due to
> > hunger, etc. All that was caused by subjective hate.
>
> I can understand the source of your hate. It's your need for revenge and
> choice of target that I find irrational. A lot of people would blame
> war, or the military, and just as likely pick your own grandfather as
> their scapegoat (since he was a soldier, and the Aussie military also
> interned POWs based on family origins, just like the Germans and just
> about every other country involved in WW2 did etc)..
He hasn't a CLUE what is being talked about anymore... Neville is one
of the most amazing people I have ever come across. How on EARTH he
looses the plot so totally is a mystery. He's on a different PLANET
now!
[Mercy snip... Nev was getting far too pathetic to bother with the
rest]
Gary Meadows
> 1+2=3 to all of us, but to braindead morons like you, who lack
> teh intelligence even to take correction.. it probably equals "pumpkin
scone"!
There's no need to point out how stupid your attack on somebody else's
intelligence looks when your own literacy skills are as sharp as a bowling
bowl...so I'll leave that one alone. What intrigues me is...since you have
demonstrated the ability to count to 3...and wonders will never cease...how
is that you can't understand where the opinion poll is headed...? I don't
recall seeing any more than 3 votes against the notion...so once you hit 3
and there's more Yes's coming in, surely it dawned on you that there are
more of those than the amount of fingers you needed to count the No's?
Dan Wakefield
"Lance Baker" <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote:
> Dan Wakefield <danwak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8mdgmg$be$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <96535833...@cube.norcom.net.au>,
> > "Lance Baker" <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote:
> > > stereotype <stere...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The
> > > > (aged 6-7) had to bring along an object from their own culture.
So
> > > > many of these kids have at least one parent from another country
> > that
> > > > most turned up with something from their parent's culture.
> > > >
> > > > These kids went over the top, they dressed in costumes you
wouldn't
> > > > believe. Never have I seen kids so happy, so proud, and so
empty of
> > > > hate. Every one of them mingling with each other, friends,
there was
> > > > absolutely no separation of people along race grounds, the way
they
> > > > dressed, the way they spoke, not a single kid cares.
> > >
> >
> > Is there is only one? can you describe it?
> > I thought the costumes worn by convicts, soldiers,
> > merchants and chinese goldworkers were quite diverse?
> >
> > Surely his point was that ALL of the children were
> > true-blue little Aussies!
> >
> > None of us wear the animal skins of the indigenous people,
> > our immigrant predecessors wore their various national
> > dress which he has described very nicely, and we now all wear
> > standard Western dress (or most of us do anyway) which
> > still bears a resemblence to the various trousers and
> > shirts and dresses from England and Ireland and Wales
> > and Greece and Italy, and China and Vietnam.
> >
> > Why do you need to inject a note of dissension, even resentment,
> > into such a charming story?
>
> I didn't.
> I asked a simple question - nothing more, nothing less.
>
And I just asked you what a 'true blue' costume looked like.
It seems you can't tell us.
Is that because, as I suggest, there is more than one.
Or because you just don't know what one looks like?
Dan Wakefield, apprentice trueblue
Andrew D
<stere...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[snip]
+I have admitted there are people I hate, and I think it's objective.
+Let's look at you. I think you hate the Labor Party and feminists
+because you feel they deliberately disciminate against you and your
+family (and others).
I don't hate them, I believe they are misguided. I may hate their policies
but they possibly can't help being the victims of propaganda. My task is
to open their eyes to the truth but I don't hate them if they choose not
to see. I'm sure they feel as strongly about their opinion as I feel about
the right one.
However, I'll throw a curly one at you. In other threads you have asked
people to consider the welfare of the drug addicts and the like. You
presumably do not believe a drug addict deserves to be hated but to be
understood and assisted. I assume this beause you paint the addict as a
victim of circumstances and possibly a less privileged upbringing.
With this in mind, I ask you to consider whether a bigot is not just a
victim of their own upbringing and whether they too are deserving of
sympathy and help rather than hatred which would surely cement their
prejudices? Is it their fault if they were raised to despise others? Is it
anyone's fault? If not, then is your hatred of them subjective?
Andy D.
conq...@wantree.com.au
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Andrew D
to an old man who will ensure she bears children as soon as possible. In
others it seems perfectly okay for that man to slaughter the girl if she
offends or embarasses him in any way.
Without condmening me, explain if these practices should be okay here -
and if not, why not?
Andrew D
<danwak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[snip]
+And I just asked you what a 'true blue' costume looked like.
+It seems you can't tell us.
+Is that because, as I suggest, there is more than one.
I think that's the perceived problem. We have people in this thread not
only celebrating the fact that all these kids were proud to display their
own heritage through costume, but apparently also proud that there is no
single Australian costume through which "Australian" kids can display
their own heritage. It's a mixed message that often comes up in the
multiculture debate.
I made the point last year when a panel of "Australians" judged a series
of short movies about "Australia". Members of the panel were very quick to
denigrate anything remotely "Okker" (such as a steak sandwich) and praise
anything "multicultural" (such as ethnic food).
It's a weird debate filled with apparent hypocrisies. It appears
multiculturalism often means killing off anything which might otherwise be
considered inherently Australian - almost as if Australians should be
ashamed of their past while other people should not be ashamed of theirs.
Che Guava
Andrew D wrote:
> In article <8mkvoi$11r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Dan Wakefield
> <danwak...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> +And I just asked you what a 'true blue' costume looked like.
>
> +It seems you can't tell us.
>
> +Is that because, as I suggest, there is more than one.
>
> I think that's the perceived problem.
Who perceives it as a problem?
> We have people in this thread not
> only celebrating the fact that all these kids were proud to display their
> own heritage through costume, but apparently also proud that there is no
> single Australian costume through which "Australian" kids can display
> their own heritage.
If people can, according to you, be proud of their monoculture, why
can't Australians rightly be proud of their multiculture?
> It's a mixed message that often comes up in the
> multiculture debate.
It's mixed only because YOU find it objectionable that people
feel proud of tolerant multiculturalism. If you look at most peoples
wardrobe you will find nearly everyone likes variety.
So what is wrong where 'national dress; means whatever you
comfortable to wear?
I really think you are inventing a problem where there is none,
amongst the descendents of last century's trueblues are clearly
a range of sub cultures... eg endeavour posted about his surfie
background.. for some people boardshorts are de rigeur.
For others its Mambo T-shirts, then there is your levi and longhorn
belt buckle set, your moleskins and JM williams, and of course
the Fletcher Jones nerds ("K-Mart sucks!" - Rain Man)
.. I always thought that was what Australia was about.. a general
lacksidaisical, stuff you kind of fashion anarchy.. except in the
lounge bar where overalls are banned after 8:00
> I made the point last year when a panel of "Australians" judged a series
> of short movies about "Australia". Members of the panel were very quick to
> denigrate anything remotely "Okker" (such as a steak sandwich) and praise
> anything "multicultural" (such as ethnic food).
Well, just hold that thought, ....who knows, in another 12 months
you might find something equally idiotic to become permanently outraged
over.
I like a steak sandwich just as much as a Rogan Josh, so long as its
accompanied by a cold VB.
The sort of idiotic overkill you refer to is, I suggest, not typical.
It reminds me of the current, unbelievable in my view, furore
over some o/s servicemen for their 'Gay Mardi Gras' spoof on
videotape. If i understand the news reports correctly, there
is some suggestion, from some quarters, that their video is offensive
to the Mardi Gras!!! B^p
Now I have to say.. Fair f*cking suck of the sav!! B^p
I'm not a big Mardi Gras fan, but you can't avoid the bloody thing..
and from what I've seen, from hairy poofters in nun's habits to
Amanda Vandstone puppets in bondage... IT'S the most IRREVERANT
public display anywhere on the continent!
That's fine.. I like a bit of over the top larriken satire, with lashings of
funny costumes and even funnier nudity.. but then there can't be anything
wrong with servicemen doing the same..
(except they did look pretty bloody stupid! ;-)
For the Gay community to complain that they have
been sent up, or 'villified' is about as pathetic as the Townsville
Taliban whining and bleating about 'troublemakers' B^D
Anyway.. my point is twofold, there will always be a sprinkling of
whingers, wowsers and Taliban monoculturalists, who always want
everyone to do it THEIR way, but they are not the majority, nor the
spirit of this age.
Diversity is natural.. just look at ecosystems.
> It's a weird debate filled with apparent hypocrisies.
I see only the ones you just introduced, so far.
The thread itself remains straightfoward... ONE of the unique
things about Australian traditional culture is that we have never really
taken to the regimented, EVERYONE IN LEDERHOSEN, approach
to national dress.
Why do you find it objectionable that some people are proud of that
open, casual, tolerant, flexible, comfortable, creative freedom.
> It appears multiculturalism often means killing off anything which might
> otherwise be
> considered inherently Australian -
oh twaddle, a 12 month old crock of shit by some media wanker from the
Sydney arts mafia about okkers, repeated by you here, is hardly
'killing off' anything. B^p Get some perspective!
Besides, if you want everyone to wear traditional neck to knees
at the beach, by all means form a little historical club.. most Aussies
just don't have the time for such nonsense.
> almost as if Australians should be
> ashamed of their past while other people should not be ashamed of theirs.
Only the convict whipping and native massacres, Andy. Shameful things should
be seen as shameful.. no matter if they were committed at Auschwitz
or Myall Creek, but put it in perspective. Once the past is acknowledged,
people can move on.
I didn't detect anything in Stereo's post suggesting unecessary cultural
guilt. Just pride in being part of a tolerant, culturally rich, diverse yet
united community.
Hell. it's peaceful.. and that IS something to be proud of!! B^D
Che
-----
Che Guava
__________
Chief Maker of trouble for the Townsville Taliban,
Keeper of the sacred aus.culture.true-blue FAQ
Champion of the Fair Go FOR ALL,
GENUINE true-blue,
embryonic Net Legend ;-)
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > stereotype wrote:
> >
> [..]
> >
> > > The war in the balkans a few years ago occurred because one group
> > > of people was racially, religiously, and economically oppressed by
> > > another.
> >
> > Crap. Those peoples have hated each other for centuries. What kept
> > them from each others' throats in the past was their subjection to
> > other peoples' empires: notably, Turkey, Austria-Hungary and in this
> > century until recently, Yugoslavia. Now NATO's carrying the bag.
> >
> > The Turkish and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were multicultural;
> > Yugoslavia was monocultural. Nothing those empires did improved the
> > attitudes of the Balkan peoples to each other: not the tolerance; not
> > the repression; not even the enforcement of good behaviour over the
> > last 700 odd years. What makes you think things will work differently
> > here?
>
> Ned you actually managed to disprove everything you said, that I did a
> mercy snip on. You definitely got this bit right "Yugoslavia was
> monocultural", and that is EXACTLY what led to the latest war there.
Perhaps, then, you can tell us why the term "Balkan Problem" predates
Yugoslavia.
Perhaps you can tell us how the twentieth century monoculture of
Yugoslavia managed to cause all the ethnic trouble in the Balkans
from the thirteenth to the nineteenth centuries.
> You are advocating the same Yugoslavia monoculture for Australia,
Wrong, Spazzo. Go away and learn some English. Then read my posts
again.
> and the result from that WILL be the same as there. This is as
> sure as day follows night.
We already *have* that result, you drongo. Just not as bad. Yet. It's
happened because cultures of hate are being imported and "tolerated".
This is exactly what the Turkish Empire did when it imported Turks,
Arabs and Islam to the Slavic, Hellenic and Christian Balkans.
Ned Latham
> Agora wrote:
> > stereotype wrote:
> > >
> > > Went to my nephew's school today for a cultural festival. The kids....
> >
> > Just 1 question. What if Australians dont want MC? Do thay have the
> > democratic right to reject it or not? If not, what democratic rights
> > do they have?
>
>
>
>
> I don't want MC because I live in one of the most MC places in Australia
> and hateful consequences of MC "on the ground".
>
> But now that I've said this someone is likely to try to shut me up by
> calling me a "racist" or "racial suprematist" or "neo-nazi" or whatever.
> For the record, I don't greatly care. "Sticks and stones" and all that ...
> (However, if anyone tries to link me to that dimwit from Ipswitch who
> couldn't even read the book that was written for her, and published by her
> silly party, I will be offended.)
>
>
>
> We have no right to national or cultural self-determination.
>
> the plug on our economy as they did with South Africa. If that didn't
> destroy us they would have no hesitation in using military means
> against us, as they have done against any nation that they deem a
> "rogue state" - most of which have conveniently been Third World
> places that don't get sympathetic treatment in our media.
>
> Sorry, Agora, but I think we've had it.
Actually, Rebecca, It's a whole lot worse than that. And yet there's
a slim chance that we can save our descendants' future.
First the bad stuff.
The world can't sustain the present population indefinitely:
no matter what else happens, there will be a massive die-off
of human beings on this planet in the not too distant future.
Humanity can decide to let nature take its course, or to manage
it intelligently. The establishment have decided to manage it
intelligently, which to them means ensuring that *they* survive,
regardless of the effect on the future of the species. They're
cooperating internationally to work us over in preparation for
whenever it happens. Multiculturalism and poverty are part of
that, setting us at each others' throats. Other preparations
include the debasement of our education system, where they've
thrown out education so as to make us ignorant, and replaced
it with indoctrination, so as to make us stupid (Politically
Correct); gun control and instilling the victim mentality so as
to make us defenceless; and breaking the unions and instilling
the coolie mentality so as to make us obedient.
But that's not even the worst of it. The first stage of the Human
Genome Project is complete. Now comes the really exciting stuff:
the search for cures and preventatives for all those nasty genetic
diseases that we're prone to. Like ageing. They'll find a cure
(or a preventative) for that, and the result will be people who
are virtually immortal. But there are two problems with that:
* You can't have six thousand million immortals running around
the planet breeding like rabbits, so it'll be restricted to
those who "qualify" one way or another;
* Lower Class (Criminal Class) people who live long enough start
thinking, and can become troublesome to the establishment, so
they'll have to be excluded on principle.
The benefits of biological engineering can be turned against us
in other ways, too. The researchers will find ways to "improve"
the human body - no-one sane would object to imrpovements in our
joints, for example, or in the suspension of our internal organs,
or the dumping of the veriform appendix, but what happens when
they come up with ideas for producing humans "designed" for
specific environments or tasks?
Then there's nanotechnology: the personal computer of the future
will be *really* personal - it will be a network of nanotech
computing nodes embedded in the user's body, powered by the
user's metabolism, and in direct contact with the user's Central
Nervous System, perhaps through neurons grown specifically for
the purpose. The user will control the computer by will, just
as we now control our bodies; and the computer will inform the
user through direct stimulation of the user's sensory system,
just as our bodies now inform us. The computer will also be
able to communicate with other computers of course, so just by
willing it, the user will be able to query any database in the
world, and will be able to "talk" to anyone similarly equipped
anywhere in the world. In other words, it will provide the user
with enormous amounts of knowledge and a very effective form of
pseudo-telepathy.
But, if nothing else, it will be expensive, so poor people won't
get it. And it would be undesirable, from the establishment's
point of view, to let the underclasses have it anyway. They
might start thinking even *before* they get old.
So we are going to have a reduced population in the future, and
the way things are headed, the establishment, a tiny proportion
of that population, will be enormously powerful individuals,
pseudo-telepathic and virtually omniscient and immortal, while
for the rest, designed for the jobs allotted to them by their
betters, life will be very much a case of nasty, brutish and short.
--------
But there is one slim prospect that we can have a say in the decisions
that will be made about these technologies, and so (hopefully) make
those decisions humane: we have, after two and a half thousand years,
finally gained the technology that makes it possible to put genuine
democracy into effect over a region larger than a few miles across.
All we need is the political will to convert to it.
Well, not quite: it would be fairly trivial for the people in power,
but they're afraid of democracy: they equate it with the tyrrany of
the mob, so we need to do something to allay their fear. But if we
did it here only, the septics would, as you point out, intervene
very forcefully to suppress it, so we need to do it world wide, or
at least, have it happen in Seppoland as well as here. If the fear
of democracy can be allayed in the USA, and in the EU, the rest of
the world will follow, and the future of humanity will be less grim.
So what we need to do is set up a world wide democracy movement, and
show people not only that democracy is possible, but also that it need
not be feared. The latter is the hard part, but I have an idea about
it. The theory of Parliamentary Democracy as a Good Thing lies in the
separation of the powers of legislative initiative and assent: the
theory is that the People have the power of initiative through their
Representatives, the Head of State has the power of assent, and tyrrany
is averted. In practise, of course, it hasn't worked out like that,
becaue the establishment have gained control of both.
The problem is that the Representatives are a fairly small group, easy
to isolate, influence and infiltrate; and the Head of State is just one
person, even more vulnerable to people with real power.
The solution is to flip the details of the Parliamentary Democracy
model: let the establishment have the power of initiative (through
the Representatives, if they want it that way), and pass the power
of assent from the Head of State to the People. That way, we can't
impose the tyrrany of the mob on them, so we have a beginning for
allaying their fears, and they can't impose *their* tyrrany on us.
Maybe. We have to get the education system restored too. And get the
news services reporting truth.
The implementation is simple in concept: we provide a free telephone
number for people to cast their votes, and a networks of computers
for recording and counting the votes. Then, whenever the Parliament
passes a Bill, they offer it to us for our assent. If we like, we
vote "yes", if not, we ignore it or vote "no". If it doesn't get
enough "yes" votes, it doesn't become Law. This should apply to all
matters that affect our lives: in particular, the Law of the Land,
Government Policy decisions and International Treaties.
If we can persuade the seppoes to do it, they'll let us do it too.
So maybe there *is* a possibility of self-determination.
Aldis Ozols
news:slrn8ot8jc....@messy.apex.net.au...
>
> Actually, Rebecca, It's a whole lot worse than that. And yet there's
> a slim chance that we can save our descendants' future.
[great big snip]
Thanks for that excellent and thoughtful post, Ned.
I'm glad that there are people considering the
_really_ significant issues. You should archive that
post somewhere, so more people can read it, or
post it in its own thread -- it deserves more than
the obscurity of a minor thread in two aus newsgroups.
--
How to Lobby Politicians
http://www.zeta.org.au/~aldis/lobby.html
"Reality is whatever doesn't go away after you stop believing in it."
-- Philip K. Dick