An Ex-Warrant Officer's View On Australia's Defence - Large
David Moss
I'm pretty sure I went through this same crock of crap about 2 years
ago. Particularly the part about the styrs melting when fired on full
auto. Since then I have used the styr a few times and fired it on full
auto. I can assure you it didn't melt.
Also, next time you see Australia's Federation Guard doing ceremonial
duties have a look at the rifles they carry. L1A1 SLRs. They clearly
weren't all destroyed as per the articles claim.
I could tell you how many are in storage but it would blow your mind
and get me into trouble, so I won't.
Instead I would like to put Australians minds at rest regarding
personal weapons in the ADF.
The Austyr is by far the best weapon I have ever used. Its accuracy,
ease of use, effective rate of fire etc far surpasses the L1A1 SLR.
The only criticism I can come up with is the fiddly little parts made
it more difficult to clean and it cannot be fired from a partially
stripped condition. This is offset by the fact it can be partially
cleaned easily (the barrel detaches quickly and easily) and can be
back in full service within seconds.
I can think of no good reason to fire one on full auto except in a
panic situation. The rate of fire is so great the magazine is empty in
a few seconds. But if this becomes necessary squeezing the trigger all
the way back turns this excellent SLR into a very effective machine
gun till the ammo runs out.
Please stop trying to make Australians anxious with regard to our
soldiers personal weaponry. A listen to the ABC's realaudio coverage
of the recent clash between Australians and Indonesians in Timor will
illustrate perfectly why the Austyr is our weapon of choice.
DM
personal opinion only
Lance Baker
Lance.
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An Ex-Warrant Officer's View On Australia's Defence
The Ready Reserve
This cache of 1,157 Bren guns and 415,000 303s (plus ammunition) was put in
storage after World War II in case we were invaded. It took three years to
unpack, clean, check, oil and repack the weapons, and then it was time to do
it all again. I watched the storeman, acting under orders, dumping them on
the Barrier Reef, cutting them up in pallet loads and sending them to Sims
Metal. By 1991 most had been destroyed. The remainder, 100,000 303s 8,300
Brens, 3,000 Vickers, and all remaining Owen guns went to "overseas tender
only" (Aust 30/5/91). This left us with 110,000 of the L1A1, 7.62mm self
loading rifles and 37,000 Steyr 5,56mm rifles.
The SLRs
In 1994 the government ordered that these 110,000 rifles be melted down at
BHP. Each rifle was worth $4,000 secondhand. That left us with (by then)
67,000 Steyrs.
The 5.56mm/.223cal
The Steyr was 5.56mm or .223cal a virtual toy by military weapon standards.
It was touted the killer weapon as was the Armalite 223. The British
commandos used that in the Falkland war. In the debriefing the commandos
reported that the .223cal was no use in war. In their words, "The Armalite
5.56mm the L42 (7.62mm) and the SLR were the weapons predominantly used, but
the Armalite just didn't have the stopping power - it's a 5.56mm high
velocity round, and it used to go straight through people as opposed to
knocking them down. The 7.62 SLRs and L42s were knocking them down." It was
after the Australian "government" were aware of this inadequacy that they
dumped the SLRs and armed Australians with a known ineffective calibre
weapon.
The Steyr
The Steyr proved to be defective. The Army issued an order No. 7196-94. This
indicated that the Steyr should not be used on rapid fire for long because
plastic parts melted.
The Saudis tried the Steyr and rejected it because it could not handle the
dusty conditions. It was also reported that the tiny .223cal was no good in
the tropical wet either. It didn't take many drops of water down the barrel
to make the gun unsafe to the operator. The optical sight fogs up in the
jungle and, since the rifle has no other sight, the soldier is in deep
trouble.
Australian Defence Industries (ADI)
The Federal Government decided that the gun legislation to disarm Australia
applied to our armed services. If you can't believe that read this report
from the Financial Review 1/12/97. "The Federal Government arms
manufacturer, Australian Defence Industries Ltd, is being paid $400,000 for
surplus guns it is surrendering under the Government's guns amnesty."
" The surrender improves the balance sheet of ADI, which is about to be
privatised, and increases both the tally of weapons surrendered and the
payments, which come out of the extra medicare levy." We paid them to melt
more of our vital defence weapons.
Ammunition Factories
The "government" closed our ammunition factories so we no longer had the
capability to make our own ammunition.
The Ammunition
The ammunition, which had to be imported, was defective. There was case
separation which means that when the extractor tried to pull the spent
cartridge out of the breach the rim came but the case didn't. The only way
the gun could be repaired was to send it back to the armourer where the
brass could be reamed out.
The Ammunition Suppliers
Guess who got the contract to supply us with ammunition. You guessed it -
Indonesia. By a strange coincidence they were unable to fulfil the contracts
so the Army had no reserves and no ammunition to even practice with. Does
that surprise you?
Surface to Air Missiles (SAM)
In the fifties and sixties the RAAF had a missile squadron to protect our
industrial heartland around Newcastle. By 1970 the squadron had been
eliminated and not replaced.
Over the Horizon Radar (OTHR)
Today, from satellite, observers can read the headlines of your newspaper,
they can detect a metal object the size of a can opener, and they can pick
up the heat of a decomposing body, buried two foot down, four months after
body was buried. They can track every ship on the face of the earth. Now -
thirty years after the invention of radar absorbent paint for aircraft,
Australia is experimenting with over-the-horizon ground based radar and not
too successfully. Does that surprise you?
Our Air Transport
I watched the RAAF stand the Hercules transport aircraft on the airstrip at
Laverton unattended and un-maintained. These craft deteriorated until they
were sold at junk prices. At that time we were paying Ansett and TAA to fly
our men and equipment because we did not have the aircraft to shift them.
Our Helicopters
We had twenty Chinooks until the government sold 18 of them. Now we have no
aircraft capable of moving our soldiers rapidly or getting supplies to them.
In the invasion of Malaya during the last war the Japanese used push bikes.
We haven't even got bikes .
The Schools
We had the best electronics school in Australia at Laverton. The adult
trainees were a cut above anyone else. We gave hands-on equipment training
to the apprentices who received their theory and practical training in the
best civilian establishments including the Royal Melbourne Institute of
Technology.
The apprentices were so far behind the "direct entry" trainees doing the
same course under RAAF instructors that they could not even start the
practical training undertaken at Laverton. To solve this problem RAAF
instructors had to take the apprentices for a crash course from basics
though to computers to get the civilian trained product to a level to even
look at complex equipment. I was one of the instructors at the school for
over ten years. The School of Radio was closed leaving our youth bereft of
the only decent electronics school in Australia.
A Spy's Paradise
The armed forces Headquarters Support Command, Victoria Barracks, St Kilda
Road was the security joke of the century. All modifications under
development related to by weaponry, airframes, engines, electrical, radio,
radar and navigation aids had to be routed through, and processed by,
civilian staff who were not tradesmen and had no business knowing what
modifications were under way. When I was there the "modifications" cell was
run by a gentleman of recent European extraction.
We, the technical writers, had to have our typing done by the public
servants. There were many foreigners in the typing pool.
The military personnel were not allowed to do their own photocopying. The
copying had to be done by public servants who took the classified documents
out of sight, took what copies they wanted, and then returned the documents.
Fixed Installations
Our transmitting and receiving stations were dispersed for survivability.
These have been closed so we rely on Telstra which is not secure. Encoded
messages are easily broken with computers these days.
Rifle Ranges
About half of our rifle ranges have been closed and the others are being
eliminated rapidly. There is an agenda to close nearly every civilian and
military range. WHY?
The government knows the rifle and pistol clubs provided a pool of shooters
who could in war be snipers or train troops. They do not miss a trick in
disarming and disadvantaging us.
Maintenance
The services have contracted out their maintenance. This is okay in peace
time but it means the servicemen sit doing nothing, get no hands on
experience and become box changers. In time of war we can't force the
civilians to go overseas or even to Darwin and we can't force them to cross
train so they are drivers, gunners, radio operators and soldiers. This is
planned and subtle sabotage. We can't even make the mechanics go on a test
flight in the aircraft they declare serviceable. That kept them honest.
Women
At the risk of being accused of sexism let me say the women do a good job
but the number who entered the services in noncombat roles actually reduced
the combat troops available for dangerous duty by about a quarter. In an
armed service our size that is bad news.
Civilian Staff
The civilian staff are neither use nor ornament to armed services. They too
can't be cross trained to change overnight from box packers (equipment
assistants) to cracker stackers (gunners) and soldiers. They simply give the
services numbers that are not there in time of war. They serve to conceal
the real weakness of our armed forces. When our army was 27,000 strong we
had:
( Minister for Defence, Senator Ray as reported in the Australian Financial
Review 15/5/91)
2,500 Clerks
964 Cooks
500 Medical Assistants
192 Movement Assistants
1,631 Drivers
817 Vehicle Mechanics
285 Musicians
585 Info Systems Operators
430 Stewards
1,728 Technical Storemen
241 Cartographic Techs
3,100 Riflemen (a joke that would give us about one rifleman for every eight
kilometres of coastline.
Whimps
Troops are being brainwashed into believing that, if they see anyone get
hurt they really need counselling. God help them if the Japs or Indonesians
get them. There won't be any time to sit down, have a good cry, and call the
padres and counsellors.
Discipline
The whole idea of discipline is too make the soldier so scared of his
sergeant that he would rather fight a Jap with a machine gun rather than
risk the wrath of the sergeant. That ain't easy. Current armed forces policy
says that officers and NCOs are not to talk harshly to the men and women in
case their delicate feelings suffer damage.
To suggest that this is all part of a deliberate plan by the government to
neuter the forces might have raised a laugh a few years ago but now there
are just too many signs that there is deliberate psychological
indoctrination of our troops to take away their manhood.
Fairies
There have always been a few homosexuals in the armed forces. Provided they
did their work and did not interfere with others they were tolerated. If
they became a pain in the butt to others they were sent packing.
Now the government makes a production of "accepting" gays. Their real intent
seems to be to encourage limp wristed ones to be visible and active as part
of the image of our new bronzed ANZACs.
Our image in Asia is pretty bad when our politicians take their lipstick and
fishnet stockings to do some "diplomacy". We do not need fairies in the
forces to make us the laughing stock of the world. The politicians do a good
job in that field.
I do not rush around telling everyone that I am hetrosexual and I see no
need for any "publicity" about who is gay and certainly there is no need to
pay public relations officers to sell our pro gay armed forces.
Safety
Soldiers are so coddled that they are not allowed to carry rifles, bolts and
ammunition in the same vehicle in case they have an accident.
The enemy will really shock them. He will want to kill them on purpose.
Would anyone seriously suggest that police carry their pistol in one car and
ammution in another? Then why impose such nonsense on grown ups in uniform?
Ready Or Not
The government has a suicide plan. They store our rifles where they are
safe - in locked armories. Anyone with half a brain knows this is absolute
stupidity. From lessons learnt every since gun repositories were invented,
the hard cold facts are that, you do not put all the guns in one place where
the enemy can steal them or destroy them in bulk.
One guerrilla with a machine guns can keep a thousand unarmed men out of
their own armory. Even if they got into the armory they would still have no
bolts (breech blocks) and then no ammunition. This cannot be an accident. In
the fifties we had a bracket on the wall where our rifles stood under our
own lock and key.
Gun Factories
To make sure we could not even build military weapons in an emergency the
government bought in legislation to force private firms to sell out to the
government so the factories could be dismantled and the machinery destroyed.
It seems the government is happy for every other nation on earth to make
guns, but WE can't. Do you start to see a pattern emerging?
Surprise Surprise
We had Operation Kangaroo to see if Australia could cope with an invasion
from the north. Guess who the "government" brought in as independent
umpires. You guessed right again - Indonesian Generals.
Navy
The government has done more damage to our navy than the Japs did in World
War II. We don' need an enemy with the ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS at the helm.
Aircraft Carrier
They got rid of the Melbourne. Our only aircraft carrier. Our economy is so
devastated we can never hope to replace it.
Fleet Air Arm
The government got rid of the Fleet Air Arm leaving our ships without air
cover in the twentieth century.
Our Missile Ships
We had the Derwent and the Swan. The government sank the Derwent to test
demolition charges. They sank the Swan to make an artificial reef. I had a
report from a marine engineer who went over the Swan as it was being made
ready for a watery grave. He could not believe they were going to get rid of
a ship in such great condition.
Collins Class Submarines
These are a disaster. They are World War II mechanics. They are noisy and
have to surface to charge batteries. In the seventies these type ships could
be tracked like bleeding elephants in the snow. They have no real defence
against attack and they are armed with iron torpedoes which in the 21st
century will be the laughing stock of the world. Our government knew this
when they ordered the submarines.
It would be kinder to shoot the crew now than let them suffer a horrible
death in war. Perhaps we should shoot the traitors who deliberately ordered
that we equip with obsolete toys.
Industrial Treason
They put our navy boys into incendiary bombs knowing that any hit would
incinerate our fathers, brothers and sons. When the boat burns it is as
though the sailor was tied to a fireworks fountain. Any survivors are
horribly disfigured and often maimed. The government built these death traps
here in my home town, Maryborough, at Walkers Ltd.
Our old patrol boats were completely refurbished and delivered to Indonesia.
John MacLean, of Hervey Bay, was the crane operator.
Are there kickbacks
We bought two US Navy tank landing vessels, the Manoora and Kanimbla. Both
were built in 1975. We paid $61 million. Then we spent $42 million on
initial rust repair, $54 million on initial repair and upgrade, and then
another $93 million additional repair and upgrade. We still have ships 24
years old and obsolete. (Daily Telegraph 11/9/98).
Joint Control
Prior to joint control there was healthy rivalry between the services. They
all had aircraft, boats and guns. If any one service was infiltrated the
others were still effective. Today they have all been infiltrated through
the joint control and civilianisation. Asians and aliens are given key jobs
above the uniformed branches.
ASIO & ASIS
Hindsight reveals that a suspected KGB spy from MI5 actually set up and
staffed our security services. One can only guess at the key men he chose.
This is dealt with in full on Page 12
Training the Enemy
I have video footage of Mr Sambawaga (Indonesian Spokesman and politician
bragging that they will ATTACK and, in the same footage Ali Alitas
(Indonesian Minister for Foreign Affairs) is saying that Mr Sambawaga
reflects the views of the Indonesian people and the parliament. We are
training Indonesian troops at Canungra our Jungle Warfare Centre so they
know all of our tactics. We bring them out here on joint exercises so they
get to see every aspect of our army, navy and air force. This is treason.
Big House
Everywhere one goes in Indonesia one hears the same line of tripe. Indonesia
small country - many people. Australia big country - few people. It is
obvious that this is the government education/ propaganda line being drummed
into the people. By the same logic Suharto lives in a big house - few
children. Paddy Murphy lives in small house - many children. Perhaps Suharto
would like to swap to even thing out.
The "big house" theory is the maggot of madness that starts all wars. It is
theirs. I want it. Therefore it's mine. I will take it by force. They don't
want to give it up. The last survivor wins, at the cost of a million
brothers, sons and fathers.
Beach Heads/Airfields
The government has permitted Indonesia to acquire cattle stations with night
landing strip facilities. Planes fly in and out without passing through
Australian customs. They can and do (according to informants) fly in drugs
and guns and take out exitic birds and reptiles. They overfly the north of
Australia at will practicing "crosswind" landings as far south as Carnarvon.
Why don't they practice in Indonesia, no crosswinds?
Trucks
We had hundreds of military trucks from Asia standing on RAAF bases when
they came out here for an exercise. The trucks were here long after the
exercise and may be still here.WHY? There was an outbreak of Anthrax in the
area, was that coinciodence?
Foreign Pilots
According to the government we can't get enough Australians to train as
pilots for the RAAF so we are now training Singaporean, Malay and Indonesian
pilots to fly OUR aircraft. The government does not tell the truth. Our
universities are full of Aussies who would give their eye teeth to be jet
pilots.
In the event of a war with Asia which way would these pilots shoot and how
hard would they fight for us?
Olympics
The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
"crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
control and whether they will go home.
Abos/Indo Brothers
The Indonesians claim our fishing beds and northern islands on the grounds
that they intermarried with Aborigines so they are indiginous Australians
with more title to the north than any of us from of European descent. What
garbage? They were using dugouts until the Dutch arrived.
Asians are training and arming militant Aborigines in the north. Peter
Sawyer, in Inside News, published details of a shipment of AK47s allegedly
imported by Fuller Firearms and allegedly stored in Bondies wharehouses. I
challenged Peter to show me proof. He pulled out photos of pallets and weigh
bills showing that the arms originated in Russia. That was in 1988.
The Indonesians would use the Aborigines and then shoot them like dogs. Any
Aborigine thinking of joining his black brothers should do a quick
educational trip to West New Guinea. If he gets back he will be wiser.
Already Gone
Indonesia in 1993 took our oilfields south of the Timor Trench (the border
by international law). These were worth $250 billion ($85,000 per Australian
family). In 1997 they took at least as much again (the new border is called
the Economic Exclusion Zone). There was a massive Indonesian buy out of our
assets on Christmas Island. Now they claim that along with the continental
shelf the size of Tasmania. To get involved in a war all one needs to do is
show a bully nation that you are too yellow to resist their first, second or
third land grab. Let them ram your patrol boats and push Australians off
their own fishing grounds. Bang! You are dead.
How to deter Indonesia
Janes, the leading authority on world conflict says that Australia WILL be
invaded.
All we need do to eliminate this threat is to arm their last three or four
victims. Imagine if we gave the Timorese a thousand sniper rifles, what
havoc they would cause to those who mercilessly slaughtered their people to
suppress them and gain the oil fields?
If we gave the West New Guinea natives a thousand sniper rifles they would
take revenge for the genocide there.
Crimtrak
The government has, through Interpol, provided computer access to the name,
address, driver licence and personal particulars of every gun owner,
political writer, editor and activist in Australia so they can be rounded up
in the event of invasion and occupation.
The army against us
The army is training in urban clearance, and suppression and internment of
civilians. We are the civilians. In the fifties we were taught crowd
control. We could shoot if our life, the life of a fellow soldier or a
civilian was threatened. I have restricted documents showing that the army
are authorised to shoot civilians without such requirements. They can
execute without resort to a trial.
Treaties
The ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS have signed or are signing treaties that we will
not use gas, nuclear, biological, chemical, laser, mines, incendiaries or
booby traps. That is big of them. They do not say what we are allowed to use
or how we could defend ourselves.
Threats
Our own politicians pose the most serious threat to our country. We have no
idea which of them are loyal to the Fabians, the New World Order, the
Financiers or to themselves. They are certainly not loyal to Australia. They
have pursued a policy of giving preference to Asian and Aliens in all of the
public service establishments. It is hard to phone a government office in
Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane, and find someone who can talk anything but
stilted English.
Religion
We have discussed that the Muslims HAVE to kill us infidels.
The Brisbane Line
In World War II an infamous decision was made to abandon Queensland to the
Japanese. The southern cowards did not tell Queenslanders so they could arm
and fight as guerillas. On the contrary, they pleaded with Queenslanders to
hand in their guns so the army could defend Australia.
All of this was long after the allies knew that the Japanese were depraved
murderers who enjoyed a bit of fun making their victims form details to dig
holes. The next detail buried the first detail up to their necks and then
covered the heads with earth so the victims died a slow horrible death to
provided entertainment.
Other games included tying captured prisoner's hand and foot and using the
prisoner for bayonet practice, once again to provide entertainment. (Refer
photos "Knights of Bushido" by Lord Russell.)
Left alone Queenslanders would have made invasion or occupation by the
Japanese an experience the Japs would not have enjoyed. Disarmed they would
have been "entertainment". That is the good news.
The Newcastle Line
A leaked document revealed the Australian Defence Strategy which planned to
defend only south from Newcastle to Adelaide. The Defence Department
admitted the leaked document was genuine. (The Sunday Age, 28 June 1992).
Guess what - the ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS have a plan to totally disarm ALL
Australians. Sound familiar?
THREATS
Refugees
The New World Order could organise an invasion of Australia, by a million
Chinese, simply by dumping the boat people who would flee the fanatical
Muslims in Indonesia. The Indonesians killed 250,000 Chinese in a couple of
days in 1965 and now the "hate the Chinese" game is on again.
Peaceful Occupation
If the Indonesians started ferrying hundreds of thousands of civilian women
and children into the north what could we do? There is no such thing as
peaceful invasion. The aim is the same - eventual displacement, suppression
and eventual slaughter. We are talking about your inevitable fate if you
don't do something.
Threats
China and Indonesia agreed in 1964 that everything north of the Philippines
belonged to China and everything south of the Philippines belonged to
Indonesia. That was big of them.
Laser
The Chinese have been selling the Norinco Laser Death Ray for years. The USA
kindly gave them the technology. I published photos in an earlier edition.
It is the size of a Vickers machine gun and water cooled. It isn't much good
as a death ray but it totally and permanently blinds every soldier it hits.
What do you think an invader would do with 50,000 blind Australian soldiers.
They wouldn't even shoot them. They would let them wander until they drop
and the crows would pick out their eyes just as they do to any downed beast
(before the beast is dead). This is war on this earth and we live here or we
will if we are as tough and ruthless as our enemy. Don't hide from truth or
prediction will become reality for you.
Japan
Japan is reemerging as a potential threat. They admit to spending $56
billion a year on defence. Much of their military expenditure is disguised
as legitimate civilian expenses. They are only peace loving when they are
under very close scrutiny.
They have an elite officer corps that could create an invasion size army, in
addition to the 200,000 they already have, in a matter of months. They have
nuclear subs galore, 280 state-of-the-art tanks, 63 combat ships, 170
armoured fighting vehicles, 150 new helicopters, 386 combat aircraft, three
surface to air missile battalions and a large women's army.
One good night on the saki and it is on again. Little wonder it was the Japs
who moved the motion to disarm civilians in Australia. That is where Howard
got his orders from. (Ninth UN Congress, Cairo, Egypt 29th April - 8th May
1995). Little wonder the Japanese Prime Minister thanked John Howard for
initiating the program to disarm Australian civilians (Northern Daily Leader
19/9/97).
Who will Rescue us?
The US may not. They have allowed Timor and West Irian to go into Indonesia'
s tender mercy. A bit of genocide here and there doesn' worry the Americans
much. A merchant seaman told me that he was in West Irian and noticed the
farmers were all Indonesians. He asked where the locals were. The Commandant
simply held his hand low, as though he had a pistol and was shooting a dog
in the head. These are the people the government is to import to handle
security for the 2000 Olympics. Will they go home?
The Map
I have had airline pilots, Barrier Reef marine pilots, letter-to-the-editor,
and teachers who taught in Indonesia etc. All say they have seen maps
showing this as part of Indonesia.
In 1976 army personnel from Bendigo (Army Cartographic Unit) told me that
they had drawn maps for Indonesia showing Australia as part of Indonesia. I
wrote to the Minister for Defence and he would not deny that.
The Governor General
He has betrayed us and the Australian Constitution by handing control of the
military over to the politicians. That is illegal. Our forefathers made
specific instructions that was never to be. Any nation that allows the
politicians to control the police and the military is in deep trouble.
If you hear Howard talk of "his government" sending troops to Iraq, just be
aware, if he does any act which presumes control of the armed services he
risks a long jail term. Any GG who give tacit support to the subversion of
our Constitution (Para 68) is in similar trouble. You must ask yourself WHY
do these men HAVE to subvert OUR laws? They know it is treason. What
incentive drives them?
Janes
The foremost authority on defence, war, weapons and politics has forecast
that Australia will be invaded. Perhaps Janes have been listening to the
hundreds of Indonesians who brag that this country is theirs and they ARE
coming to get it.
Senior Officers
The best officers in all of the armed services have been pushed aside to
make room for the new breed of academic airheads who have been anointed with
defence degrees and diplomas by the lunatic socialist left ratbags who pass
as professors in the Defence Academy. The men who knew how to storm a hill
and not lose their men have been replaced with people loyal to anyone but
Australia.
Suggested Immediate Remedial Action
We are on our own and we should be capable of reasonable defence against
attack. We need a big bang or similar modern weapon. The only thing that
will put 200,000 Indonesians or Japanese back on their own territory is the
fear that their territory will be hit real hard. That fact that our leaders
do not want us to have adequate defence is a worry.
In a worst case scenario where we are actually invaded regulars are no use
against insurmountable odds. Guerillas are the only successful force capable
of stopping total takeover. Guerillas NEVER surrender totally but to have a
fighting chance they need expert training and survival skills such as that
available at Canungra.
It is a statistical fact that it takes about ten to twelve times as many
regulars to beat a force of guerillas who only fight when and where it suits
them. With 600,000 irregulars an invader would need 6,000,000 troops to take
Australia. That is provided the guerillas have appropriate and adequate
arms. That will never be while we have traitors in Canberra.
Given that Janes predicts we will be invaded one would think the government
would take some steps to create a Swiss style defence system. They don't.
WHY?
Oz Guerillas - Swiss Style
Our guerilla force would need to be dispersed and mobile. Trail bikes are
the go. One soldier on a trail bike, with a suitcase size antitank missile
is a hard target to hit and very cheap. He can still knock out a multi
million dollar tank. Another soldier with a .5cal sniper rifle can drop a
helicopter. The guerillas would need night vision.
Side Effects
The presence of 600,000 armed civilians in a community would be incredible.
Home invasion would drop to almost zero. Armed robbery would almost cease.
We would all be safer. This is what has happened in Switzerland where there
are 628,000 armed civilians.
We can get 600,000 AK57 rifles, boxed, and complete with cleaning kits for
$50 each. We could make Australia invasion proof for $30 million, a
thirtieth of what we gave Indonesia to ease their economic crisis. The
ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS will make sure this does not happen. They are
traitors or fools.
The RAAF
We bought aircraft that require large fixed landing strips. These are good
in a country like the USA but no use to a country like Australia. We needed
aircraft that could take off from a cattle station or a beef road. They have
been available and cheap for well over 20 years. The Harrier Jump Jet is
capable of vertical/short takeoff and landing. Wrong choices are not
accidents. I used to think it was stupidity at the top. It is not stupidity.
Coastal Radar
We could have bought simple portable radars the size of a small caravan with
a range of 250 miles instead we bought monstrous fixed equipment worth
megadollars.
We wasted millions putting in fire protection systems that rang warning
bells for a few seconds then flooded the building with poisonous fire
suppressant gas. A radar is less prone to fire and has better fault
protection circuits than your TV.
We paid multi millions to force the manufacturer to replace the transmitter
output valve with a toy valve. This necessitated rewriting the handbooks and
made it a special order (not off the shelf). More big money. This reduced
that area covered by the radar from 785,000 square miles to 196,000 square
miles. The original radar (with one additional site) would have given
Australia total east coast cover. For much more money we got a quarter of
that cover. I see this as commercial corruption and deliberate defence
sabotage.
The Mirage and F-111
We bought aircraft designed to deliver nuclear warheads then armed them with
iron bombs designed to destroy wooden bridges. The aircraft were not suited
for this task. What good would the Mirage or F-111 be against the Chinese,
Japanese or Indonesians? We found what put the Japs back in their box and it
made a big flash and a big bang. Nothing else works.
What Choice?
We either arm or suffer invasion. Being armed is what deters greedy
invaders. If well armed, and protected by 600,000 guerillas, we would be too
tough to be tempting. We could be safe, that is if the
ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS were on our side. They are not.
Do Something
It is your children who will be bayonet bait if we are overrun. It is your
children or grand children who will be baby bayonet kebabs. That is reality.
We do not live in a very nice world and it will not change just because some
people choose to stick their heads in the sand. You can get this article on
defence discussed in your clubs, unions, RSL, league, society etc. You might
just wake enough apathetic Australians to the danger they face to turn the
tide in our favour.
High Treason
The Australian government sent our troops to Vietnam and Korea knowing full
well that they were serving under a Soviet commander who had to give
approval before any air, ground or sea strike could be initiated against the
communists. The communists knew in advance where when and how we would
attack and were well prepared to slaughter our young soldiers.
Why so? The United Nations "Charter" stipulates that this has to be so
forever. Who would agree to such treason?
"EACH ONE OF US THAT SERVED IN KOREA OR VIETNAM. SERVED UNDER THE TOTAL
COMMAND OF A SOVIET GENERAL!!" Here are the names of the Soviets and the
dates they served as "Under-Secretary" of the Security Council of the United
Nations, thus, the highest military commander of all United Nations fighting
forces anywhere in the world .......... including all military forces of the
United States. These names and information were obtained from the United
Nations yearbooks up to 1983 Year Soviet General's Name
1946-49 Arkady Alexandrovich Sobolev
1949-53 Constantine E. Zinchenko
1953-54 Ilya S. Tehernychev
1955-57 Dragoslav Protich
1958-59 Antoly Dobrynin
1960-62 George Petrovich Arkadev
1962-63 Eugeney D. Kiselev
1963-64 Valdimir Paulovich Suslov
1965-67 Alexei Efremovitch Nesterenko
1968-73 Leonid N. Kutakov
1973-78 Arkady N. Shevchenko
1978-80 Mikhail D. Sytenko
1981-83 Viacheslav A. Ustinov
(Source: TREASON IN HIGH PLACES by Lt. Col. F.P. "Bud" Farrell, U.S.A.F
Ret.)
The Enemy Within
The major parties have an agenda to populate Darwin with Indonesians, a ploy
that would give us a fifth column in the event of war. This plan may well be
forced on government by a United Nations agenda. There is no doubt that
Indonesians are welcome and well educated British and South Africans fleeing
mad Marxist blacks are not. Indonesian is a compulsory second language in
the NT. Why? There were very few Indonesians there before the
"multicultural" agenda.
The Handicap
There is no way you will get the major parties to introduce effective
defence to Australia. They have an agenda. That agenda requires that we be
totally disarmed. The Liberals signed it in 1981. The ALP ratified it in
1983. It was passed into Australian law in 1984. It was hidden in the Anti
Discrimination Act. All fluffy talk by the various defence ministers is a
blind to keep you quiet while they proceed with their agenda. I don't know
why. YOU ask them WHY.
Warrant Officer A R (Tony) Pitt, RAAF, Retired. Technical
Instructor/Computer Systems Officer/Technical Writer/Administrator in Radio,
Radar, Navigation Aids
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
<snip pro-gun rant>
who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
--
"There are three ways to make money. You can inherit it.
You can marry it. You can steal it." -- author unknown.
Brian
>
> A very interesting read - bit large though.
> Lance.
Actually, Lance its made up of the same old myths, misconceptions and
misunderstandings which most people who have only a casual understanding
of Australia's defence have about it. I've refuted nearly all these
claims before, in this forum but I suppose I'll have to do it one more
time, yet again.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> An Ex-Warrant Officer's View On Australia's Defence
>
> The Ready Reserve
> This cache of 1,157 Bren guns and 415,000 303s (plus ammunition) was put in
> storage after World War II in case we were invaded. It took three years to
> unpack, clean, check, oil and repack the weapons, and then it was time to do
> it all again. I watched the storeman, acting under orders, dumping them on
> the Barrier Reef, cutting them up in pallet loads and sending them to Sims
> Metal. By 1991 most had been destroyed. The remainder, 100,000 303s 8,300
> Brens, 3,000 Vickers, and all remaining Owen guns went to "overseas tender
> only" (Aust 30/5/91). This left us with 110,000 of the L1A1, 7.62mm self
> loading rifles and 37,000 Steyr 5,56mm rifles.
The actual reason why these weapons were dumped was because their
utility was considered, by the late 1980's, at best, marginal in modern
warfare. While he notes the time taken to clean, check and repack the
weapons, what he doesn't note is the expense. Plus he fails to take
into account, storage of weapons by themselves, is rather pointless.
You also have to store the ammunition and ammunition, unlike weapons has
to be constantly cycled through, in order to ensure that it is kept at
its optimum. As Australia had sold the .303 filling plant, in the late
1970's to India, the only place we could obtain that ammunition was on
the open market. So it was expensive. As we no long used .303, the
only way to cycle the ammunition would be to in turn sell it back to the
open market. As the only national Army which uses .303 as one of its
main calibres was in fact India, it was unlikely we would be able to
move the quantities of ammunition necessary, in order to maintain our
own stocks in optimum condition.
Therefore, in the end, it was considered simply cheaper and easier to
dispose of the weapons, thereby saving considerably on expense and
replacing them with new weapons, which is what has happened, Lance.
> The SLRs
> In 1994 the government ordered that these 110,000 rifles be melted down at
> BHP. Each rifle was worth $4,000 secondhand. That left us with (by then)
> 67,000 Steyrs.
As part of the war stocks rationalisation, mentioned above, it was
decided that instead of maintaining stocks of older service weapons,
we'd instead utilise a stock of the present service weapon, thereby
saving on the expensive of maintaining a large stock of older generation
ammunition. The number of Steyrs is in fact much larger than 67,000
(approximately twice that number in fact). The reason why the number of
67,000 has entered into the public conciousness is because these were
the _initial_ contracts which were let for the weapon and which were
announced publicly. Since then, several additional contracts were let
nearly doubling the total number with those weapons being placed in
reserve, as a war stock.
> The 5.56mm/.223cal
> The Steyr was 5.56mm or .223cal a virtual toy by military weapon standards.
*SIGH*, this is one of the oldest myths that old soldiers who are not
aware of the reality of wound ballistics WRT the 5.56x45mm round. I
would recommend that you read the article by Martin Fackler (the world's
foremost authority on wound ballistics BTW), in International Defence
Review, Vol.22, 1/89, "Wounding Patterns of Miltiary Rifle Bullets",
Lance. The 5.56x45mm round is quite nasty in what it does, Lance, so
its not necessarily an article for the faint-hearted. The SS109
version, as against the older M193 (as used in the M-16), also has
greater penetrative ability at long ranges than the 7.62x51mm round
which it replaces, being able to penetrate a standard NATO military
helmet at 1000 metres.
> It was touted the killer weapon as was the Armalite 223. The British
> commandos used that in the Falkland war. In the debriefing the commandos
> reported that the .223cal was no use in war. In their words, "The Armalite
> 5.56mm the L42 (7.62mm) and the SLR were the weapons predominantly used, but
> the Armalite just didn't have the stopping power - it's a 5.56mm high
> velocity round, and it used to go straight through people as opposed to
> knocking them down.
Except of course when it fragmented inside them and killed them through
that effect, Lance (refer to the above article). If the British
"Commandos" were so dead set against this weapon (actually, only two
units in the British Army carried M16's in the Falklands, Lance, the SAS
and the Alpine and Nordic Warfare School of the Royal Marine Commandos),
why did they continue to use it in the Gulf War nearly a decade later?
> The 7.62 SLRs and L42s were knocking them down." It was
> after the Australian "government" were aware of this inadequacy that they
> dumped the SLRs and armed Australians with a known ineffective calibre
> weapon.
In his opinion. In the opinion of all the experts, including
Dr.Fackler, mentioned above, the 5.56x45mm calibre is as good and in
some aspects better than 7.62x51mm.
> The Steyr
> The Steyr proved to be defective. The Army issued an order No. 7196-94. This
> indicated that the Steyr should not be used on rapid fire for long because
> plastic parts melted.
This hoary old myth resurfaces. In fact, the Order makes the point that
the Steyr is not to fire more than 90 rounds in less than a minute.
Long before the plastic furniture "melts", you encounter much more
dangerous problems with the possibility of a "cook-off" where the
round's propellent ignites because of the heat of the chamber, before
the round has been properly chambered and the breach-block locked, with
the result that the weapon blows up in the face of the firer. This
problem is not in any way unique to the Steyr. No weapon which fires
from a closed bolt, escapes it. After you've fired 90+rounds at fully
automatic, in less than a minute, other possible problems can and do
start occuring, if that rate of fire is maintained, Lance such as
distorted barrels (again a problem associated with all assault rifles,
just not the Steyr) and eventually, even as this person claims, melted
working parts or furniture. However, before that occurs, the other
problems will create a far more dangerous situation.
> The Saudis tried the Steyr and rejected it because it could not handle the
> dusty conditions.
Not quite. They rejected it because the Americans offered them such a
sweet deal on the M16a2 that they couldn't refuse it. Oman, the nation
next door to Saudi Arabia, which has in fact even a harsher and varied
climate than Saudi Arabia has been quite happy with its adoption of the
weapon. In Oman, they have both hot, arid interior deserts and moist,
arid coast deserts.
> It was also reported that the tiny .223cal was no good in
> the tropical wet either. It didn't take many drops of water down the barrel
> to make the gun unsafe to the operator.
False. If true, then virtually every tropical operator of 5.56x45mm
calibre rifles, such as Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines,
most of Central America and a large slice of Africa, would have reported
problems, Lance. They haven't. Essentially you'd have to fill the
barrel with water and then attempt to fire it for that to occur. Even
then, any weapon, no matter what the calibre would be dangerous to the
user.
> The optical sight fogs up in the
> jungle and, since the rifle has no other sight, the soldier is in deep
> trouble.
False. Again, neither the Malaysian nor the Omanis have reported any
difficulties with the _sealed_ sight unit.
> Australian Defence Industries (ADI)
> The Federal Government decided that the gun legislation to disarm Australia
> applied to our armed services. If you can't believe that read this report
> from the Financial Review 1/12/97. "The Federal Government arms
> manufacturer, Australian Defence Industries Ltd, is being paid $400,000 for
> surplus guns it is surrendering under the Government's guns amnesty."
>
> " The surrender improves the balance sheet of ADI, which is about to be
> privatised, and increases both the tally of weapons surrendered and the
> payments, which come out of the extra medicare levy." We paid them to melt
> more of our vital defence weapons.
These weapons were not vital to our defence, being held in essentially
private hands, Lance. Another falsehood.
> Ammunition Factories
> The "government" closed our ammunition factories so we no longer had the
> capability to make our own ammunition.
False, again. The Ammunition Factories are still quite happily
producing, well what else but, ammunition, however they were sold off
recently to a private consortium, headed by the French, if memory serves
me correctly.
> The Ammunition
> The ammunition, which had to be imported, was defective. There was case
> separation which means that when the extractor tried to pull the spent
> cartridge out of the breach the rim came but the case didn't. The only way
> the gun could be repaired was to send it back to the armourer where the
> brass could be reamed out.
>
> The Ammunition Suppliers
> Guess who got the contract to supply us with ammunition. You guessed it -
> Indonesia. By a strange coincidence they were unable to fulfil the contracts
> so the Army had no reserves and no ammunition to even practice with. Does
> that surprise you?
False. Indonesia does not supply us with ammunition, Lance.
> Surface to Air Missiles (SAM)
> In the fifties and sixties the RAAF had a missile squadron to protect our
> industrial heartland around Newcastle. By 1970 the squadron had been
> eliminated and not replaced.
The Bloodhound medium/high altitude SAM's were purchased in the early
1960's, primarily as a counter to the aquisition of Tu-16 Badger bombers
by the Indonesian government under Sukarno. They were not intended, nor
even stationed to "protect our industrial heartland around Newcastle.
The bulk of these weapons were in fact stationed around Darwin airbase
(the base closest to Indonesia) with only one flight being stationed to
protect Williamtown airbase at Newcastle.
By 1970, they were considered to have marginal utility at best. The
Tu-16's were all out of commission, Sukarno had been deposed and a new
era of rapproachment was underway with Jakarta. As they were intended
to counter medium/high altitude threats and most airstrikes were now
being conducted at low altitude, protected by ECM which rendered the
Bloodhound's SAH system marginally effective, it was decided they should
be retired, in line with what the RAF, the only other operator of this
weapon system was doing in Europe.
> Over the Horizon Radar (OTHR)
> Today, from satellite, observers can read the headlines of your newspaper,
> they can detect a metal object the size of a can opener, and they can pick
> up the heat of a decomposing body, buried two foot down, four months after
> body was buried. They can track every ship on the face of the earth. Now -
> thirty years after the invention of radar absorbent paint for aircraft,
> Australia is experimenting with over-the-horizon ground based radar and not
> too successfully. Does that surprise you?
Nope. However, those satellite systems come at a very high cost. Only
the USA has been able to obtain that sort of level of performance, using
multispectral photography from high orbit, utilising reconniassance
satellites the size of a small bus. The fUSSR could only obtain it
using much small satellites from lower altitudes, with short-lived,
satellites lasting only a few weeks (at most).
Commercial satellites have yet to approach the sorts of resolutions that
this fellow is talking about. The best commercial satellite system, the
French SPOT has a 5metre resolution. Its 1 metre resolution system has
yet to be launched.
Both commercial and military systems can be defeated by weather, just as
can photographic reconniassance aicraft. Radar cannot.
As to the utility of the JORN system, as it is actually supposed to be
capable of detecting the wakes of stealthy aircraft, we must be doing
something right. In addition, it is aimed primarily not at the
detection of aircraft but rather at the detection of ships, he has the
wrong end of the stick it would appear. It works 24 hours a day, not
just when the satellite is over head and it has a range of over 5,000
km, according to most reports and a minimum range of about 1,000 km, so
I'd say its an extremely useful piece of equipment. When this is
operational in 2003, we will be one of only three nations in the world
with this capability. Furthermore, because it has some very interesting
applications, we will find a good market for it (if we can pull our
fingers out and actually sell it).
> Our Air Transport
> I watched the RAAF stand the Hercules transport aircraft on the airstrip at
> Laverton unattended and un-maintained. These craft deteriorated until they
> were sold at junk prices. At that time we were paying Ansett and TAA to fly
> our men and equipment because we did not have the aircraft to shift them.
The RAAF stood those aircraft there because of political considerations
as to who was considered a suitable buyer for them. Each time a buyer
surfaced, questions also appeared as to whether we should be selling to
either such individuals or regimes. When they were retired, it would
have proven far more expensive to maintain them and utilise them
properly, having to maintain two very different sets of stores holdings,
for two different versions of the same aircraft (C-130A as against
C-130E/H). Superficially it appears attractive to utilise these sorts
of aircraft but in reality the economics usually prevents it being a
reality.
> Our Helicopters
> We had twenty Chinooks until the government sold 18 of them. Now we have no
> aircraft capable of moving our soldiers rapidly or getting supplies to them.
Funny, I was under the impression we still operated 3 of them.
Actually, in part I agree with him but I also recognise that the utility
of the Chinook in the Fortress Australia strategic concept which the
government had adopted after the 1987 White Paper, to be quite
marginal. While they were excellent heavy lift choppers, their range
was quite limited. With the consequence that they had difficulties
being utilised properly in operations across the Top End. The need for
some form of tactical, heavy lift, capability has been long recognised,
which is why, finally the Caribou replacement program has gotten off the
ground and is in process (although after Timor, there is talk of
chopping it again) and instead of looking only at piss-piddling little
transports they are looking primarily at the heavier, beefier, top end
of the scale.
> In the invasion of Malaya during the last war the Japanese used push bikes.
> We haven't even got bikes .
The Japanese utilised bikes but were able to do so because they didn't
pay very much attention to the problems of logistics. In reality, if
the British in Malaya had been able to stage a proper stand, or even
hold out in Singapore for more than the fortnight they did, the Japanese
would have been well and truly stuffed, running out of supplies before
they had achieved victory.
[snip]
> A Spy's Paradise
> The armed forces Headquarters Support Command, Victoria Barracks, St Kilda
> Road was the security joke of the century. All modifications under
> development related to by weaponry, airframes, engines, electrical, radio,
> radar and navigation aids had to be routed through, and processed by,
> civilian staff who were not tradesmen and had no business knowing what
> modifications were under way. When I was there the "modifications" cell was
> run by a gentleman of recent European extraction.
Oh, dear, not this one again? Now, since when did it matter what
"extraction" a gentleman was of, if he had signed on the dotted line and
indicated that he owed his loyality to his newly adopted country?
This person might be interested to know that most of the recent spy
cases in Australia, which have led to prosecution have been of native
born Australians, rather than necessarily newly arrived immigrants.
Appears to me that he's engaging in a bit of migrant bashing.
Considering that it was you who posted this, Lance, why am I not
surprised?
> We, the technical writers, had to have our typing done by the public
> servants. There were many foreigners in the typing pool.
Really? I was under the impression that all public servants had to be
citizens. Again, migrant bashing for its own sake it would appear.
> The military personnel were not allowed to do their own photocopying. The
> copying had to be done by public servants who took the classified documents
> out of sight, took what copies they wanted, and then returned the documents.
Nothing wrong with that. In fact, its more secure that way, Lance. In
reality, by limiting the access to photocopiers, you ensure that
documents don't get copied, unless absolutely necessary.
> Fixed Installations
> Our transmitting and receiving stations were dispersed for survivability.
> These have been closed so we rely on Telstra which is not secure. Encoded
> messages are easily broken with computers these days.
As they were before when they were sent by military controlled radio
stations, mate. Radio itself is not a secure method of transmission.
> Rifle Ranges
> About half of our rifle ranges have been closed and the others are being
> eliminated rapidly. There is an agenda to close nearly every civilian and
> military range. WHY?
Most were located close to capital cities on prime land. As shooting as
a hobby has decreased in importance in the community, their unrealised
value meant they were prime targets for redevelopment.
> The government knows the rifle and pistol clubs provided a pool of shooters
> who could in war be snipers or train troops. They do not miss a trick in
> disarming and disadvantaging us.
Sure, sure. Now we get to the real reason for this load of bullshit.
Gun nuts strike again.
Australians have *_NOT_* been disarmed. There are now more firearms in
private hands than there were before the introduction of the nUFL,
Lance.
> Maintenance
> The services have contracted out their maintenance. This is okay in peace
> time but it means the servicemen sit doing nothing, get no hands on
> experience and become box changers. In time of war we can't force the
> civilians to go overseas or even to Darwin and we can't force them to cross
> train so they are drivers, gunners, radio operators and soldiers. This is
> planned and subtle sabotage. We can't even make the mechanics go on a test
> flight in the aircraft they declare serviceable. That kept them honest.
Actually, what has happened has been a reorganisation of the maintenance
system to make it more economic, both in peacetime and war. Third line
workshops have been privatised. As these are fixed installations, which
do not move, even in wartime, their value in wartime is marginal. By
placing them in civilian hands, military personal are freed up which in
turn be utilised in provision of more second and first line maintenance
personel, much closer to the "coal face" as it were.
As to the utilisation of civilian personel in wartime, perhaps this WO
should read up on the Gulf War, which relied extensively upon the use of
civilian personel, both in and outside of the warzone to provide
transport, logistic and maintenance services. He might find that in
fact, this tradition goes back well into the 19th century when the
British and other armies made extensive use of civilian personal in
their lines of communications. It was not until the vast manpower
pools of WWII allowed them to be largely eliminated. Even in WWI,
according to I.M.Brown's masterful work, "British Logistics on the
Western Front", the British army would have been unable to sustain its
offensive effort in that theatre without the use of civilian personel.
> Women
> At the risk of being accused of sexism let me say the women do a good job
> but the number who entered the services in noncombat roles actually reduced
> the combat troops available for dangerous duty by about a quarter. In an
> armed service our size that is bad news.
What a load of old cobblers. He is being sexist. There is nothing
biological which prevents women who are capable of performing a combat
role from doing so. Their admission to combat roles in the Army is,
anyway, rather a moot point, since the adoption of "All Arms Defence" by
the army in the 1960's, whereby each and all units, no matter where they
are located, are responsible for their own defence. The result is that
even a unit, such as one devoted to logistics, well behind the FEBA
(Forward Edge of the Battle Area) which could well be composed of a
large number of female soldiers, has to be prepared to defend itself.
Transport units which do have female drivers are similar and they do
operate in the FEBA.
> Civilian Staff
> The civilian staff are neither use nor ornament to armed services. They too
> can't be cross trained to change overnight from box packers (equipment
> assistants) to cracker stackers (gunners) and soldiers. They simply give the
> services numbers that are not there in time of war. They serve to conceal
> the real weakness of our armed forces. When our army was 27,000 strong we
> had:
> ( Minister for Defence, Senator Ray as reported in the Australian Financial
> Review 15/5/91)
>
> 2,500 Clerks
> 964 Cooks
> 500 Medical Assistants
> 192 Movement Assistants
> 1,631 Drivers
> 817 Vehicle Mechanics
> 285 Musicians
> 585 Info Systems Operators
> 430 Stewards
> 1,728 Technical Storemen
> 241 Cartographic Techs
> 3,100 Riflemen (a joke that would give us about one rifleman for every eight
> kilometres of coastline.
*SIGH*, considering the low level of threat that we face, we are in fact
actually slightly over staffed, as long as we do not engage in such
military adventures as East Timor. This man seems to forget that when
the level of threat was considered considerably higher in the early
1960's, we actually had a smaller army than we do today. Today, we face
no direct threat to Australia so therefore, we can afford to maintain a
smaller army than we do now. As defence of Australia relies primarily
upon defeating an enemy in the air/sea gap, before they can gain a
lodgement on the continent, the army is very much the junior member of
the ADF.
> Whimps
> Troops are being brainwashed into believing that, if they see anyone get
> hurt they really need counselling. God help them if the Japs or Indonesians
> get them. There won't be any time to sit down, have a good cry, and call the
> padres and counsellors.
What a load of cobblers. This man obviously believes in the old adage
"grown men don't cry". As our experiences in past wars have shown, all
this results in is dysfunctional men who either suffer emotional/nervous
breakdowns or undertake considerable substance abuse in order to try and
hide from their problems. Modern psychology has shown that if the
problems are addressed _now_, rather than later, then the problems not
only for the individual but the organisation are decreased considerably.
> Discipline
> The whole idea of discipline is too make the soldier so scared of his
> sergeant that he would rather fight a Jap with a machine gun rather than
> risk the wrath of the sergeant. That ain't easy. Current armed forces policy
> says that officers and NCOs are not to talk harshly to the men and women in
> case their delicate feelings suffer damage.
Another load of old cobblers. That is _not_ the objective of discipline
and if this "WO" believes it, then he needs a chance to relearn it.
> To suggest that this is all part of a deliberate plan by the government to
> neuter the forces might have raised a laugh a few years ago but now there
> are just too many signs that there is deliberate psychological
> indoctrination of our troops to take away their manhood.
Yeah sure, old digger. Why don't you just wander off into the sunset?
> Fairies
> There have always been a few homosexuals in the armed forces. Provided they
> did their work and did not interfere with others they were tolerated. If
> they became a pain in the butt to others they were sent packing.
>
> Now the government makes a production of "accepting" gays. Their real intent
> seems to be to encourage limp wristed ones to be visible and active as part
> of the image of our new bronzed ANZACs.
>
> Our image in Asia is pretty bad when our politicians take their lipstick and
> fishnet stockings to do some "diplomacy". We do not need fairies in the
> forces to make us the laughing stock of the world. The politicians do a good
> job in that field.
>
> I do not rush around telling everyone that I am hetrosexual and I see no
> need for any "publicity" about who is gay and certainly there is no need to
> pay public relations officers to sell our pro gay armed forces.
Why am I not surprised that this man is not only sexist, racist but
homophobic as well?
Perhaps he'd care to tell us that homosexuals cannot fight? Hehehehe,
history would tend to indicate otherwise.
> Safety
> Soldiers are so coddled that they are not allowed to carry rifles, bolts and
> ammunition in the same vehicle in case they have an accident.
He's complaining about people paying attention to safety in peacetime?
Considering that when I was in the army, the "Army Training Bulletin"
used to detail, on its inside back cover, each and every firearms
related accident which had occurred since the previous issue, and that
most of them were caused by people who didn't pay attention to safety
considerations, such as not travelling with a loaded weapon in the back
of a vehicle, I'm surprised he even brings it up.
As its obvious that this man is a member of the RAAF and not the army,
from his comments, I must conclude he's got little real idea about how
the army operates, in peacetime compared to wartime.
> The enemy will really shock them. He will want to kill them on purpose.
> Would anyone seriously suggest that police carry their pistol in one car and
> ammution in another? Then why impose such nonsense on grown ups in uniform?
For reasons of safety. In wartime, operational considerations overcome
peacetime safety ones. That does not mean that one should believe that
in peacetime, you ignore safety, or in wartime you still continue to act
as if its peacetime.
> Ready Or Not
> The government has a suicide plan. They store our rifles where they are
> safe - in locked armories. Anyone with half a brain knows this is absolute
> stupidity. From lessons learnt every since gun repositories were invented,
> the hard cold facts are that, you do not put all the guns in one place where
> the enemy can steal them or destroy them in bulk.
What enemy is going to do that? Having worked in armouries in my
military career, short of either placing a very, very, very, large bomb
next to the wall, or using some fairly sophisticated cutting equipment,
any "enemy" is going to have a real hard time either entering or
stealing from them.
> One guerrilla with a machine guns can keep a thousand unarmed men out of
> their own armory. Even if they got into the armory they would still have no
> bolts (breech blocks) and then no ammunition. This cannot be an accident. In
> the fifties we had a bracket on the wall where our rifles stood under our
> own lock and key.
The bugger has to get in, in the first place. How is that going to be
achieved when entry is strictly controlled?
> Gun Factories
> To make sure we could not even build military weapons in an emergency the
> government bought in legislation to force private firms to sell out to the
> government so the factories could be dismantled and the machinery destroyed.
> It seems the government is happy for every other nation on earth to make
> guns, but WE can't. Do you start to see a pattern emerging?
>
> Surprise Surprise
> We had Operation Kangaroo to see if Australia could cope with an invasion
> from the north. Guess who the "government" brought in as independent
> umpires. You guessed right again - Indonesian Generals.
Again, another old hoary. Do you really think that acting as umpires,
these generals would learn things they didn't already know from open
sources?
> Navy
> The government has done more damage to our navy than the Japs did in World
> War II. We don' need an enemy with the ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS at the helm.
>
> Aircraft Carrier
> They got rid of the Melbourne. Our only aircraft carrier. Our economy is so
> devastated we can never hope to replace it.
In reality, the Melbourne was marginal at best. One carrier is not of
much use, as it spends far too much time in port to be of value.
Without at least two and more than likely three, it is impossible to
maintain a carrier onstation in an area of operations for an extended
period of time.
> Fleet Air Arm
> The government got rid of the Fleet Air Arm leaving our ships without air
> cover in the twentieth century.
Without a carrier, the value of the Fleet Air Arm was marginal. Bit
hard to cover "our ships" when your aircraft are stationed in Nowra and
the ships are operating off Darwin, now isn't it?
> Our Missile Ships
> We had the Derwent and the Swan. The government sank the Derwent to test
> demolition charges. They sank the Swan to make an artificial reef. I had a
> report from a marine engineer who went over the Swan as it was being made
> ready for a watery grave. He could not believe they were going to get rid of
> a ship in such great condition.
The weapon systems on both ships were marginal at best. It was not
worth attempting to refit them with new weapons due to their inability
to carry them, they were only DDE's, afterall.
> Collins Class Submarines
> These are a disaster. They are World War II mechanics. They are noisy and
> have to surface to charge batteries. In the seventies these type ships could
> be tracked like bleeding elephants in the snow. They have no real defence
> against attack and they are armed with iron torpedoes which in the 21st
> century will be the laughing stock of the world. Our government knew this
> when they ordered the submarines.
Actually, the Collins do not have "World War II mechanics". In reality,
they have late 1980's acoustically suppressed systems which were the
dream of any submariner in WWII. They also have one of the best weapons
fits and sonar systems available in our region, with perhaps only the
Japanese and the Americans' own being superior.
I have no idea why he believes they are armed with "iron torpedoes".
They have Acoustic Homing torpedoes and sub-Harpoon subsurface launched
anti-shipping missiles. There have been suggestions that they might be
armed in the future with SLCM's.
> It would be kinder to shoot the crew now than let them suffer a horrible
> death in war. Perhaps we should shoot the traitors who deliberately ordered
> that we equip with obsolete toys.
Yeah, sure. As I've just shown, this man is talking out of his arse,
Lance. The Collins class, apart from a few relatively minor technical
problems with their hull form are actually excellent weapons systems and
the envy of most of the submariners in the region who recognise the
superority of the design.
> Industrial Treason
> They put our navy boys into incendiary bombs knowing that any hit would
> incinerate our fathers, brothers and sons. When the boat burns it is as
> though the sailor was tied to a fireworks fountain. Any survivors are
> horribly disfigured and often maimed. The government built these death traps
> here in my home town, Maryborough, at Walkers Ltd.
>
> Our old patrol boats were completely refurbished and delivered to Indonesia.
> John MacLean, of Hervey Bay, was the crane operator.
>
> Are there kickbacks
> We bought two US Navy tank landing vessels, the Manoora and Kanimbla. Both
> were built in 1975. We paid $61 million. Then we spent $42 million on
> initial rust repair, $54 million on initial repair and upgrade, and then
> another $93 million additional repair and upgrade. We still have ships 24
> years old and obsolete. (Daily Telegraph 11/9/98).
Not kickbacks, just stupidities. The government believed it was getting
a bargain at the end of the cold war with the firesale which accompanied
it. The Manoora and the Kanimbla were purchased basically sight unseen
and the RAN has been paying for it ever since, unfortunately. At the
same time we got an excellent deal though, on the F-111G's from the
USAF, so it had its ups as wellas its downs.
> Joint Control
> Prior to joint control there was healthy rivalry between the services. They
> all had aircraft, boats and guns. If any one service was infiltrated the
> others were still effective. Today they have all been infiltrated through
> the joint control and civilianisation. Asians and aliens are given key jobs
> above the uniformed branches.
Oh, dear, here we go again, migrant bashing, with a bit of racism thrown
in.
In reality, before the creation of the joint department of defence, in
the early 1970's, we had incredibly levels of waste and interservice
rivalry. By the 1980's, that had started to be reduced and has now
largely ended, although the inter-service rivalry still remains, to a
large degree.
> ASIO & ASIS
> Hindsight reveals that a suspected KGB spy from MI5 actually set up and
> staffed our security services. One can only guess at the key men he chose.
> This is dealt with in full on Page 12
This claim has actually been discountered by its author, Peter Wright,
of "Spycatcher" fame, who first put it forward. So I wouldn't consider
it too seriously.
> Training the Enemy
> I have video footage of Mr Sambawaga (Indonesian Spokesman and politician
> bragging that they will ATTACK and, in the same footage Ali Alitas
> (Indonesian Minister for Foreign Affairs) is saying that Mr Sambawaga
> reflects the views of the Indonesian people and the parliament. We are
> training Indonesian troops at Canungra our Jungle Warfare Centre so they
> know all of our tactics. We bring them out here on joint exercises so they
> get to see every aspect of our army, navy and air force. This is treason.
Actually we aren't and haven't been now for over six months. However,
here we get to the crux of the matter, as who this person (Tony Pitt
perhaps?) thinks we should be so afraid of. The Indonesians are no
threat to us, Lance. That hoary old myth has been put to rest many
times in this forum.
> Big House
> Everywhere one goes in Indonesia one hears the same line of tripe. Indonesia
> small country - many people. Australia big country - few people. It is
> obvious that this is the government education/ propaganda line being drummed
> into the people. By the same logic Suharto lives in a big house - few
> children. Paddy Murphy lives in small house - many children. Perhaps Suharto
> would like to swap to even thing out.
As Suharto is now under house arrest and investigation for corruption, I
don't think what he believes is of much value, do you Lance?
> The "big house" theory is the maggot of madness that starts all wars. It is
> theirs. I want it. Therefore it's mine. I will take it by force. They don't
> want to give it up. The last survivor wins, at the cost of a million
> brothers, sons and fathers.
Actually, the Indonesians have never suggested they "wanted" Australia,
Lance.
> Beach Heads/Airfields
> The government has permitted Indonesia to acquire cattle stations with night
> landing strip facilities. Planes fly in and out without passing through
> Australian customs. They can and do (according to informants) fly in drugs
> and guns and take out exitic birds and reptiles. They overfly the north of
> Australia at will practicing "crosswind" landings as far south as Carnarvon.
> Why don't they practice in Indonesia, no crosswinds?
*SIGH*, is this like Scott Balson's "millions of Indonesian Brunians"?
What a load of bullshit.
> Trucks
> We had hundreds of military trucks from Asia standing on RAAF bases when
> they came out here for an exercise. The trucks were here long after the
> exercise and may be still here.WHY? There was an outbreak of Anthrax in the
> area, was that coinciodence?
They were in fact Singaporean, Lance but for this man (Tony Pitt?) it
appears all "Asians" are the same.
> Foreign Pilots
> According to the government we can't get enough Australians to train as
> pilots for the RAAF so we are now training Singaporean, Malay and Indonesian
> pilots to fly OUR aircraft. The government does not tell the truth. Our
> universities are full of Aussies who would give their eye teeth to be jet
> pilots.
Yeah, sure, Lance, except the problem is that Aussies don't like service
conditions and pay.
> In the event of a war with Asia which way would these pilots shoot and how
> hard would they fight for us?
If they are citizens, you should presume they owe their allegiance to
Australia, mate. More racism and migrant bashing, Lance? Hardly
surprising.
> Olympics
> The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
> "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
> control and whether they will go home.
More lies. There are no such plans but what else should we expect from
Tony Pitt?
I've deleted the rest because its not worth replying to. As I've shown,
at virtually every step, our mate Tony has been wrong and badly wrong at
that. He's a racist, homophobic, sexist, migrant bashing gun loon,
Lance and you do yourself a disservice by posting his crap here IMO.
I've taken Tony on, in this newsgroup in the past and he's run with his
tail between his legs. I'd gladly do the same again.
--
"The problem of our half-castes will quickly be eliminated by the
complete disappearance of the black race and the swift submergence of
their progeny in the white." - Dr. Cecil Cook,
Northern Territory's Chief Protector of Aborigines (1927-1939)
Brian
>
> soupnazi wrote
> > Lance Baker wrote:
>
> > <snip pro-gun rant>
>
> > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
>
> I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
> verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
>
> Would you like me to post that also?
Yes! As Tony Pitt has been proven a loon in this newsgroup in the past,
Lance, I'd be very interested to see who this "somebody high up in the
military" actually is! The nighcleaner at Russell Offices, perhaps?
Bron
Lance Baker <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote in message
news:95627998...@cube.norcom.net.au...
> soupnazi wrote
> > Lance Baker wrote:
>
> > <snip pro-gun rant>
>
> > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
>
> He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
> verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
>
> Would you like me to post that also?
>
Bron
Brian
>
> David Moss wrote:
> >
> > Lance,
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I went through this same crock of crap about 2 years
> > ago. Particularly the part about the styrs melting when fired on full
> > auto. Since then I have used the styr a few times and fired it on full
> > auto. I can assure you it didn't melt.
>
> happened all the time, just in special circumstances of repeated full auto.
It was actually after a report that if the weapon fired more than 90
rounds in less than a minute, some minor softening of the plastic
working parts was observed in a trials weapon. However, it should be
noted that before that stage could become much of a worry, in reality
the possibility of a "cook off" would be much more dangerous to the
user, while if the rate of fire could be sustained, then barrel
distortion also becomes a danger. Neither problem is one which is
confined to the Steyr but is one all weapons which fire from a closed
bolt share and all assault rifles with light-weight barrels share.
[snip]
> My limited experience with rifles told me a few of the questions, and I did a
> little reading around to find some partial answers. TENTATIVELY, it seems
> that delayed blowback systems like the (older) Heckler-Koch and FAMAS are
> more suited to Australian conditions than the Steyr, just as was the Owen
> submachine gun, and for similar reasons.
Actually, as all such weapons fire from a closed bolt and fitted with
lightweight barrels, they would all suffer from the same problems.
Whilst the delated blowback system with its roller bearings would have
IMO been just as many problems with sand ingestion as would the Steyr
with its rotating bolt design.
> These are connected to what you just
> mentioned. You omit the optical sight problem - I've seen first hand accounts
> that this can be a real issue in the field, and it's one reason why the FAMAS
> has blade sights. I like the idea of having a fallback blade sight, myself.
I agree, but the Steyr is too short a weapon to allow iron sights to be
fitted, whilst the sight line is rather too low to such an arrangement t
be easily accomodated. I've never heard of any problems with the
optical sight, which is afterall a seal unit, containing a dissicat,
which is meant to prevent fogging from occuring. Neither the Malaysians
nor the Omanis who work in far more "moist" environments than we do,
have reported any problems with them.
> Since the FAMAS has had repeated tropical trials with feedback to the
> manufacturers, I have to say it sounds as if it would have been the best
> bullpup prototype to build from, not the Steyr. That does NOT mean it's
> better than the adapted Steyr we now have, with all its own development on
> top.
The FAMAS is like most French weapons a bit of a "camel". Its barrel is
optimised, unusually to fire the M193 round, rather than the SS109 one,
which is the standard which most of the world has adopted. Further, its
design was put together by a committee who weren't really that sure as
to what they wanted in the end, by all accounts. Its surprising that
its worked as well as it has. "le Trombone" is a good design but it
hasn't necessarily arrived there easily nor necessarily in the best
method.
> > I can think of no good reason to fire one on full auto except in a
> > panic situation.
>
> Which can happen - see Guevara. The melting report I saw had the Army or
> whoever saying "the soldier shouldn't have been shooting it that way",
> omitting the possibility it might be needed. That's the sort of thinking that
> leaves off a bayonet as unnecessary.
Well, doctrine states you don't fire for extended periods on
fully-auto. Personally I'd have preferred if they'd had a burst
limiter, such as the M16a2 has. Interestingly, at the time we and the
rest of the world were adopting weapons capable of full-auto, the yanks,
working on their experience in Vietnam adopted a weapon with a
burst-limiter. Funny that, hey?
> > Please stop trying to make Australians anxious with regard to our
> > soldiers personal weaponry.
>
> Seriously, it's a real issue. Either there's no problem and this was
> pointless - or it's a problem. Either way, it's WRONG to measure the question
> by whether it might worry people. Best not to worry them? Not my style. PML.
Its really only an issue if you believe loons like Tony Pitt who have
yet to realise that the world has changed since when they were in the
military.
Brian
>
> Lance,
>
> I'm pretty sure I went through this same crock of crap about 2 years
> ago. Particularly the part about the styrs melting when fired on full
> auto. Since then I have used the styr a few times and fired it on full
> auto. I can assure you it didn't melt.
Its the cyclical nature of usenet, David. What comes around, comes
around, again and again.
You should note this is actually Tony Pitt's "manifesto". He just keeps
adding more and more bullshit all the time to it. Remember how he ran
with his tail between his legs when I took him on over the supposed
threat that Indonesia constituted to Australia? His biggest problem is
that he doesn't realise that Konfrontasi ended in 1965 and Suharto has
now been ousted from power in 1999.
Brian
Willing to lay money he won't produce, Bron?
Tony Pitt is an old fool who has yet to realise that the world revolves,
moves on and times change. He's still writing as if Suharto was in
power in Jakarta and that Indonesia was in the middle of Konfrontasi
with Australia.
Kalel
Officer's Views.
When I first read the post, I thought I could hear my father talking (for he was
indeed a Warrant Officer in WWII).
Like this post, his arguments were full of so-called "facts" which were impossible to
source and check in the middle of an argument and which inevitably led to the same
emotive conclusion: the government was comprised of bumbling idiots influenced by
cunning and treacherous advisors who were probably in the pay of a foreign power.
The country would be safer if the Defence Forces were left to manage themselves (and
presumably, to set their own budgets which the citizens of the country should be
grateful to accept without question).
Even as a very young boy I was suspicious of the truth of his assertions.
The other thing which disturbed me about the Warrant Officer's post was the speed
with which it degenerated into a paranoid, xenophobic, racist, homophobic, sexist
diatribe. It was so obviously bullshit, I wanted to pull it apart sentence by
sentence, but it was hard to know where to begin.
Brian you have done the job quite adequately. I feel better already.
Kalel
Lance Baker
news:38FFE3F7...@apex.net.au...
> Lance Baker wrote:
> >
> > soupnazi wrote
> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> >
> > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> >
> > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> >
> > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the
military
> > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> >
> > Would you like me to post that also?
>
>
> Lance, I'd be very interested to see who this "somebody high up in the
> military" actually is! The nighcleaner at Russell Offices, perhaps?
Your right there - when I rechecked it, it was a brigadier who is now
retired.
Lance Baker
I tend to agree with you on most parts.
But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
> > Olympics
> > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops
for
> > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will
and
> > control and whether they will go home.
I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
Lance.
stereotype
<la...@norcom.net.au> wrote:
>Thanks for that Brian.
>
>I tend to agree with you on most parts.
>But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
>> > Olympics
>> > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops
>for
>> > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will
>and
>> > control and whether they will go home.
>
>I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
>
>..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
>something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
>It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
>What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
I had a choice between French, German & Indonesian. None of them were
compulsory but we HAD to do one of them (that's in NSW).
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Brian.
>
> I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
> > > Olympics
> > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops
> > > for
> > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will
> > > and
> > > control and whether they will go home.
out of his arse?
>
> I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
>
> ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
you sure about that lancey.....
i think your telling porkies again.........
> What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
>
> Lance.
Lance Baker
> Lance Baker wrote:
> > Thanks for that Brian.
> > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
> > > > Olympics
> > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
troops
> > > > for
> > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they
will
> > > > and
> > > > control and whether they will go home.
>
> out of his arse?
>
> >
> > I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
> >
> > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > something about our children learning Indonesian compolsury in school.
> > It is compulsory for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
>
> you sure about that lancey.....
Well let me see. I have 2 children. The oldest spent her first 4 years of
school in Perth - in all 4 years Indonesian was compulsory. My son who is 2
years younger also had compulsory Indonesian.
Now we live in the north west (Port Hedland) - they are in the school here -
and guess what?
Indonesian is compulsory for both again.
> i think your telling porkies again.........
It must be a sad life not to have children.
David Moss
>
> Peter Lawrence wrote:
[cut]
> > These are connected to what you just
> > mentioned. You omit the optical sight problem - I've seen first hand accounts
> > that this can be a real issue in the field, and it's one reason why the FAMAS
> > has blade sights. I like the idea of having a fallback blade sight, myself.
>
> I agree, but the Steyr is too short a weapon to allow iron sights to be
> fitted, whilst the sight line is rather too low to such an arrangement t
> be easily accomodated. [cut]
The Austyr does have an "over the top" sighting system of sorts.
There is a vee moulded into the top of the optical sight housing and a
raised mark at the muzzle of the barrel in lieu of a foresight blade.
I've fired it using this fallback system with reasonable accuracy.
Certainly good enough for snap shooting.
The optical sight on the Austyr, far from being a problem, is a major
advantage.
The accuracy compared with the old SLR is amazing.
And you don't need to be built like a rugby forward to use the thing
either.
Not to mention carry it to the action.
IMO anyone who yearns for the days of the L1A1 or the .303 probably
hasn't fired a styr.
DM
personal opinion only
David Moss
>
> Thanks for that Brian.
>
> I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
> > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
> > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
> > > control and whether they will go home.
Total crap. Take it from me.
..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons. Its the closest foreign
country to WA and the business, and in time tourism, potential is
huge.
I wouldn't read a conspiracy theory into what is just good business.
DM
personal opinion only
Peter Mackay
use.a...@in.the.message.com says...
> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> >
> > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> >
> > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> >
> > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
> > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> >
> > Would you like me to post that also?
> >
Yeah. Insist on the facts, Bron.
--
Cheers! Peter Mackay
peter....@bigpond.com
personal opinion only
Brian
>
> Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote in message
> news:38FFE3F7...@apex.net.au...
> > Lance Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> > >
> > > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> > >
> > > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the
> military
> > > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> > >
> > > Would you like me to post that also?
> >
> >
> > Lance, I'd be very interested to see who this "somebody high up in the
> > military" actually is! The nighcleaner at Russell Offices, perhaps?
>
> Your right there - when I rechecked it, it was a brigadier who is now
> retired.
So, then what is his name and how long has he been "retired", Lance?
More interestingly, why haven't you commented on my rebuttal of Pitt's
lunatic claims?
Pitt refuses to debate his claims because he knows he cannot support
them. He ran with his tail between his legs when I had a go at him here
over his "Sydney is not Safe" xenophobic delusions.
Lance Baker
> Lance Baker wrote:
> > Brian wrote
> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > > soupnazi wrote
> > > > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> > > > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> > > > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > > > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the
> > military
> > > > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> > > > Would you like me to post that also?
> > > Yes! As Tony Pitt has been proven a loon in this newsgroup in the
past,
> > > Lance, I'd be very interested to see who this "somebody high up in the
> > > military" actually is! The nighcleaner at Russell Offices, perhaps?
> > Your right there - when I rechecked it, it was a brigadier who is now
> > retired.
> So, then what is his name and how long has he been "retired", Lance?
He is obviously an old buddy of Pitts. He is trying to start his own militia
army in the north - need I say more?
> More interestingly, why haven't you commented on my rebuttal of Pitt's
> lunatic claims?
I did, but not point for point, because...
If you recall Brian, I only posted the report. I never stated that I
believed it all.
The section that did spark my curiosity was the Olympic 2000 security
forces, but not necessarily what he said, but where he drew his opinion
from. I have tried to find his email address to ask him - but I had no
success.
Also, the point about compulsory Indonesian in our schools.
Both my primary school children are doing compulsory Indonesian at their
school here in Port Hedland. It was also compulsory in their school in
Perth.
After a couple of phone calls last night, I find out that all my nethew's
also have compulsory Indonesian.
It "appears" that all WA primary school children must learn Indonesia. I do
not rule out the possibility that it could be a coincidence with the 4
primary schools that I refer to.
I have asked the question if other primary school children, in WA, and other
states, also have compulsory Indonesian. Nobody has answered yet - do you
know any (from actual instances) Brian?
Lance.
soupnazi
>
> > > Thanks for that Brian.
>
> > > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
> > > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
> troops
> > > > > for
> > > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they
> will
> > > > > and
> > > > > control and whether they will go home.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
and?
where is it?
where's the email from the guy high up in the military
that verifies all
your bullshit claims?
you're a racist and a fucking liar.....full stop....
> > >
> > > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > something about our children learning Indonesian compolsury in school.
> > > It is compulsory for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> >
> > you sure about that lancey.....
>
> Well let me see. I have 2 children. The oldest spent her first 4 years of
> school in Perth - in all 4 years Indonesian was compulsory. My son who is 2
> years younger also had compulsory Indonesian.
> Now we live in the north west (Port Hedland) - they are in the school here -
> and guess what?
they've just discovered their old mans a LIAR
as well as a racist wanker?
> Indonesian is compulsory for both again.
read my lips dickhead.....
INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
the 'lanquages other than english' part students
have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
choices which vary from school to school....
your apology goes here:
>
> > i think your telling porkies again.........
>
> It must be a sad life not to have children.
so you are lying again.......tut tut chimp......
whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
racist rednecks like yourself.....
i pity your poor children.....
if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
them with bullshit is one......
give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
>
> > > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
soupnazi
David Moss wrote:
>
> Lance Baker wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for that Brian.
> >
> > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
> >
> > > > Olympics
> > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
> > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
> > > > control and whether they will go home.
>
> Total crap. Take it from me.
>
> ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> > It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
>
> It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
> speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons.
exactly........encourage being the operative word.....
indonesian is not compulsory.......
> Its the closest foreign
> country to WA and the business, and in time tourism, potential is
> huge.
> I wouldn't read a conspiracy theory into what is just good business.
these arseholes were dribbling the same bullshit a few
years ago although the conspiracy back then involved
the japanese.......
>
> DM
> personal opinion only
Lance Baker
> > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > Thanks for that Brian.
> > > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
> > > > > Olympics
> > > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
troops for
> > > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd
they will and
> > > > > control and whether they will go home.
> > Total crap. Take it from me.
> > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> > > It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> > > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
> > It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
> > speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons.
> exactly........encourage being the operative word.....
> indonesian is not compulsory.......
I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now in
Port Hedland.
In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was compulsory.
I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have had
Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
(note: I'm referring to primary schools)
Lance Baker
> > > > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > > something about our children learning Indonesian compolsury in
school.
> > > > It is compulsory for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> > > you sure about that lancey.....
> > Well let me see. I have 2 children. The oldest spent her first 4 years
of
> > school in Perth - in all 4 years Indonesian was compulsory. My son who
is 2
> > years younger also had compulsory Indonesian.
> > Now we live in the north west (Port Hedland) - they are in the school
here -
> > and guess what? Indonesian is compulsory for both again.
> read my lips dickhead.....
> INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
> the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> choices which vary from school to school....
Are you talking about primary schools? I am.
Lance.
Lance Baker
> Lance Baker wrote:
> > > > Olympics
> > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
troops for
> > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they
will and
> > > > control and whether they will go home.
> Total crap. Take it from me.
I accept your opinion.
> ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> > It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
(Why is it that nobody wants to answer a simple question on education?)
> It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
> speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons. Its the closest foreign
> country to WA and the business, and in time tourism, potential is
> huge.
Are you saying it is true that it is compolsury throughout WA to learn
Indonesian in primary school, and it isn't in, at least some, other states?
> I wouldn't read a conspiracy theory into what is just good business.
It appears you are the one reading the conspiracy theory, I'm just asking a
question about education.
Lance.
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > David Moss wrote:
> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > > Thanks for that Brian.
>
> > > > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > > > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
> > > > > > Olympics
> > > > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
> troops for
> > > > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd
> they will and
> > > > > > control and whether they will go home.
>
> > > Total crap. Take it from me.
>
> > > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > > something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
> > > > It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> > > > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
>
> > > It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
> > > speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons.
>
> > exactly........encourage being the operative word.....
>
> > indonesian is not compulsory.......
>
> I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now in
> Port Hedland.
> In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was compulsory.
> I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have had
> Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
>
> I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
> Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
> (note: I'm referring to primary schools)
i tell ya once more.......
indonesian is_NOT_available in ALL primary schools in WA....
apology goes here:
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > Lance Baker wrote:
>
> > > > > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > > > something about our children learning Indonesian compolsury in
> school.
> > > > > It is compulsory for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
>
> > > > you sure about that lancey.....
>
> > > Well let me see. I have 2 children. The oldest spent her first 4 years
> of
> > > school in Perth - in all 4 years Indonesian was compulsory. My son who
> is 2
> > > years younger also had compulsory Indonesian.
> > > Now we live in the north west (Port Hedland) - they are in the school
> here -
> > > and guess what? Indonesian is compulsory for both again.
>
> > read my lips dickhead.....
> > INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
> > the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> > the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> > have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> > choices which vary from school to school....
>
> Are you talking about primary schools? I am.
the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
the 'lanquages other than english' part students
have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
choices which vary from school to school....
for the last time wanker....
indonesian is NOT available in ALL primary schools....
your apology goes here:
>
> Lance.
Rob
>I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now in
>Port Hedland.
>In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was compulsory.
>I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have had
>Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
>
>I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
>Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
>(note: I'm referring to primary schools)
It's probably compulsory to learn a language in primary school, I certainly had
to learn Italian for about an hour a week when I was in primary school from
year 4. But there is no directive that the language must be Indonesian. I'd
guess that the decision is made by the school, depending upon logistical
constraints. I don't know why you're complaining about Indonesian, it's more
useful than any European language.
Lance Baker
> Lance Baker wrote:
> > Are you talking about primary schools? I am.
> the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> choices which vary from school to school....
> indonesian is NOT available in ALL primary schools....
It "IS" compulsory in the four schools that I know of.
Is there anybody out there with children in primary school?
Have they got compulsory Indonesian?
Lance Baker
> Lance wrote
In the schools that I quoted, "It is c-o-m-p-u-l-s-o-r-y to learn
Indonesian"
There is no "probably" about it.
I'm not complaining about the language, I'm trying to determine if it is
compulsory throughout Australia.
(this somehow seems to be a very difficult question to answer)
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now
> in
> > > Port Hedland.
> > > In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was
> compulsory.
> > > I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have
> had
> > > Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
> > >
> > > I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
> > > Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
> > > (note: I'm referring to primary schools)
>
> > i tell ya once more.......
>
> yada, yada, yada...
>
> > indonesian is_NOT_available in ALL primary schools in WA....
>
> Has anybody got children in primary school here?
> Do they have compulsory Indonesian?
no.......
it is compulsory to learn a 'language other than english'
but you have a few choices which vary from school to
school......
in midvale primary school, wa , they do not offer
indonesian........
indonesian is not compulsory statewide....
clear enuff for you dickhead?
Lance Baker
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > Are you talking about primary schools? I am.
>
> > the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> > the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> > have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> > choices which vary from school to school....
>
> > indonesian is NOT available in ALL primary schools....
>
> It "IS" compulsory in the four schools that I know of.
how convenient........name them.........
>
> Is there anybody out there with children in primary school?
> Have they got compulsory Indonesian?
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> Rob wrote
> > Lance wrote
> > >I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now
> in
> > >Port Hedland.
> > >In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was
> compulsory.
> > >I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have
> had
> > >Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
> > >
> > >I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
> > >Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
> > >(note: I'm referring to primary schools)
>
> > It's probably compulsory to learn a language in primary school, I
> certainly had
> > to learn Italian for about an hour a week when I was in primary school
> from
> > year 4. But there is no directive that the language must be Indonesian.
> I'd
> > guess that the decision is made by the school, depending upon logistical
> > constraints. I don't know why you're complaining about Indonesian, it's
> more
> > useful than any European language.
>
> In the schools that I quoted,
you quoted nothing...........
name them.........
> "It is c-o-m-p-u-l-s-o-r-y to learn
> Indonesian"
> There is no "probably" about it.
>
> I'm not complaining about the language, I'm trying to determine if it is
> compulsory throughout Australia.
> (this somehow seems to be a very difficult question to answer)
--
Rob
>In the schools that I quoted, "It is c-o-m-p-u-l-s-o-r-y to learn
>Indonesian"
>There is no "probably" about it.
And if the school loses it's Indonesian teacher and picks up a French teacher,
then it will probably become compulsory to learn French. It's the language part
that's compulsory, not the Indonesian.
>I'm not complaining about the language, I'm trying to determine if it is
>compulsory throughout Australia.
>(this somehow seems to be a very difficult question to answer)
Indonesian is by no means taught in every primary school in WA. But just about
every kid from about Year 5 that goes to a sizable primary school would have to
learn a language. It's just up to the school as to which one, as the numbers
make it unviable to allow choices. It's a bit like sport. All students must do
it, but it's up to the school which sports they have as part of their
curriculum.
Brian
>
> Brian wrote...
> > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > Brian wrote
> > > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > > > > soupnazi wrote
> > > > > > Lance Baker wrote:
>
> > > > > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> > > > > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
>
> > > > > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > > military
> > > > > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> > > > > Would you like me to post that also?
>
> > > > Yes! As Tony Pitt has been proven a loon in this newsgroup in the
> past,
> > > > Lance, I'd be very interested to see who this "somebody high up in the
> > > > military" actually is! The nighcleaner at Russell Offices, perhaps?
>
> > > Your right there - when I rechecked it, it was a brigadier who is now
> > > retired.
>
> > So, then what is his name and how long has he been "retired", Lance?
>
> He is obviously an old buddy of Pitts. He is trying to start his own militia
> army in the north - need I say more?
Not unless you wish to try and use this as evidence to substantiate dear
ol'Tony's rant.
> > More interestingly, why haven't you commented on my rebuttal of Pitt's
> > lunatic claims?
>
> I did, but not point for point, because...
>
> If you recall Brian, I only posted the report. I never stated that I
> believed it all.
No, but posting does tend to indicate that you do support if not the
content, then at least the thrust of Tony's rant, am I correct, "Lance"?
> The section that did spark my curiosity was the Olympic 2000 security
> forces, but not necessarily what he said, but where he drew his opinion
> from. I have tried to find his email address to ask him - but I had no
> success.
He has a site, or used to have, on the web, with a discussion board. I
think I have an email address somewhere, hang on a second....try
tony...@satcom.net.au.
> Also, the point about compulsory Indonesian in our schools.
> Both my primary school children are doing compulsory Indonesian at their
> school here in Port Hedland. It was also compulsory in their school in
> Perth.
> After a couple of phone calls last night, I find out that all my nethew's
> also have compulsory Indonesian.
> It "appears" that all WA primary school children must learn Indonesia. I do
> not rule out the possibility that it could be a coincidence with the 4
> primary schools that I refer to.
>
> I have asked the question if other primary school children, in WA, and other
> states, also have compulsory Indonesian. Nobody has answered yet - do you
> know any (from actual instances) Brian?
All I can say is that its not compulsory in either WA or the ACT, the
only state and territory where my own children have attended school,
"Lance". As usual, Tony is simply displaying his lunatic xenophobia.
You know, they once used to claim that learning Japanese in school was a
really big "bad thing" as well, "Lance".
Rob Silva
<la...@norcom.net.au> wrote:
>soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
>> David Moss wrote:
>> > Lance Baker wrote:
>> > > Thanks for that Brian.
>
>> > > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
>> > > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
>> > > > > Olympics
>> > > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
>troops for
>> > > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd
>they will and
>> > > > > control and whether they will go home.
>
>> > Total crap. Take it from me.
>
>> > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
>> > > something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
>> > > It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
>> > > What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
>
>> > It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
>> > speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons.
>
>> exactly........encourage being the operative word.....
>
>> indonesian is not compulsory.......
>
>I have already stated: My children, have been to school in Perth and now in
>Port Hedland.
>In each year of their education, in both schools, Indonesia was compulsory.
>I have since found out that my 4 nethews (2 different schools) all have had
>Indonesian as a compulsory subject in there schools.
>
>I'm still open to this being a coincedence.
>Can you justify why you state that Indonesian is not compulsory?
>(note: I'm referring to primary schools)
>
In SA primary schools, LOTE (Language Other Than English) is part of
the curriculum (and therefore compulsory). The child can choose from
whatever languages are available. However, most schools only have the
resources to support one language. In my kids' school, that happens to
be French.
The parents of students attending this school could therefore arguably
claim that French is compulsory for their children. In effect it is.
However, this does not mean that French is compulsory for all children
in SA schools.
I assume the WA situation is quite similar.
Gerry Orkin
<peter....@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Yeah. Insist on the facts, Bron.
Speaking of the facts, when are you going to give us the facts about the
Estelle O'Brien letter? Is she lying, or is it you? Or is the letter a
fake?
Do tell.
Gerry
"The way to improve relations between men and women is
to expose the codes that control relations among men"
- John Stoltenberg
Lance Baker
The pain of being taken for a ride.
Good luck in the battle ;-)
Bron
Gerry Orkin <gerry@_SpamOhNo_spirit.com.au> wrote in message
news:gerry-5ADC18....@news.spirit.com.au...
> In article <MPG.136b5a03...@news.bigpond.com>, Peter Mackay
> <peter....@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >Yeah. Insist on the facts, Bron.
>
Is he still at it?
Bron
Brian
Which battle is this, "Lance"? Against ignorance and stupidity like
Tony Pitt's?
Or your's?
Oh, well, back to the culture wars, it would appear. How's the
ol'conspiracy going, "Lance"?
Lance Baker
Brian wrote..
> Oh, well, back to the culture wars, it would appear. How's the
> ol'conspiracy going, "Lance"?
I wouldn't know, It has nothing to do with me.
Scott Steel
<br...@apex.net.au> wrote:
>Bron wrote:
>>
>> Lance Baker <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:95627998...@cube.norcom.net.au...
>> > soupnazi wrote
>> > > Lance Baker wrote:
>> >
>> > > <snip pro-gun rant>
>> >
>> > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
>> >
>> > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
>> > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
>> > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
>> >
>> > Would you like me to post that also?
>> >
>> Yes, including the name & the rank of the person who sent you the eMail.
>
>Willing to lay money he won't produce, Bron?
If I was a betting man, I'd lay money on it being a certain
Brigadier by the name of T** S****G.
Am I close Lance? }B^)
Scott Steel.
Scott Steel
<br...@apex.net.au> wrote:
>Lance Baker wrote:
>>
>> A very interesting read - bit large though.
>> Lance.
>
>Actually, Lance its made up of the same old myths, misconceptions and
>misunderstandings which most people who have only a casual understanding
>of Australia's defence have about it. I've refuted nearly all these
>claims before, in this forum but I suppose I'll have to do it one more
>time, yet again.
[snip]
>> Surface to Air Missiles (SAM)
>> In the fifties and sixties the RAAF had a missile squadron to protect our
>> industrial heartland around Newcastle. By 1970 the squadron had been
>> eliminated and not replaced.
>
>The Bloodhound medium/high altitude SAM's were purchased in the early
>1960's, primarily as a counter to the aquisition of Tu-16 Badger bombers
>by the Indonesian government under Sukarno. They were not intended, nor
>even stationed to "protect our industrial heartland around Newcastle.
>The bulk of these weapons were in fact stationed around Darwin airbase
>(the base closest to Indonesia) with only one flight being stationed to
>protect Williamtown airbase at Newcastle.
>
>By 1970, they were considered to have marginal utility at best. The
>Tu-16's were all out of commission, Sukarno had been deposed and a new
>era of rapproachment was underway with Jakarta. As they were intended
>to counter medium/high altitude threats and most airstrikes were now
>being conducted at low altitude, protected by ECM which rendered the
>Bloodhound's SAH system marginally effective, it was decided they should
>be retired, in line with what the RAF, the only other operator of this
>weapon system was doing in Europe.
It was reported a couple of weeks ago that the replacement
for the Rapiers is going to be pushed back to 2008 in order
for Australia to update to next generation technologies in
this area.The Fin Review specifically stated the governments
interest in puchasing emerging Energy Weapons platforms as a
replacement, and as part of a broader Theatre Defence System
including anti-ballistic missile components.
>> Over the Horizon Radar (OTHR)
>> Today, from satellite, observers can read the headlines of your newspaper,
>> they can detect a metal object the size of a can opener, and they can pick
>> up the heat of a decomposing body, buried two foot down, four months after
>> body was buried. They can track every ship on the face of the earth. Now -
>> thirty years after the invention of radar absorbent paint for aircraft,
>> Australia is experimenting with over-the-horizon ground based radar and not
>> too successfully. Does that surprise you?
>
>Nope. However, those satellite systems come at a very high cost. Only
>the USA has been able to obtain that sort of level of performance, using
>multispectral photography from high orbit, utilising reconniassance
>satellites the size of a small bus. The fUSSR could only obtain it
>using much small satellites from lower altitudes, with short-lived,
>satellites lasting only a few weeks (at most).
>
>Commercial satellites have yet to approach the sorts of resolutions that
>this fellow is talking about. The best commercial satellite system, the
>French SPOT has a 5metre resolution. Its 1 metre resolution system has
>yet to be launched.
>
>Both commercial and military systems can be defeated by weather, just as
>can photographic reconniassance aicraft. Radar cannot.
>
>As to the utility of the JORN system, as it is actually supposed to be
>capable of detecting the wakes of stealthy aircraft, we must be doing
>something right. In addition, it is aimed primarily not at the
>detection of aircraft but rather at the detection of ships, he has the
>wrong end of the stick it would appear. It works 24 hours a day, not
>just when the satellite is over head and it has a range of over 5,000
>km, according to most reports and a minimum range of about 1,000 km, so
>I'd say its an extremely useful piece of equipment. When this is
>operational in 2003, we will be one of only three nations in the world
>with this capability. Furthermore, because it has some very interesting
>applications, we will find a good market for it (if we can pull our
>fingers out and actually sell it).
Since Telstra was ditched as the chief contractor, leaps and
bounds occured ;-)
It was reported somewhere that (possibly in the Fin again)
that it became operational a couple of months ago, and it
has a max range of 3500km, from Sumatra in the West to the
Solomon Islands in the East.This range will apparently be
increased to a max of 7500km when the next stage is
completed.
>> Our Air Transport
>> I watched the RAAF stand the Hercules transport aircraft on the airstrip at
>> Laverton unattended and un-maintained. These craft deteriorated until they
>> were sold at junk prices. At that time we were paying Ansett and TAA to fly
>> our men and equipment because we did not have the aircraft to shift them.
>
>The RAAF stood those aircraft there because of political considerations
>as to who was considered a suitable buyer for them. Each time a buyer
>surfaced, questions also appeared as to whether we should be selling to
>either such individuals or regimes. When they were retired, it would
>have proven far more expensive to maintain them and utilise them
>properly, having to maintain two very different sets of stores holdings,
>for two different versions of the same aircraft (C-130A as against
>C-130E/H). Superficially it appears attractive to utilise these sorts
>of aircraft but in reality the economics usually prevents it being a
>reality.
>
>> Our Helicopters
>> We had twenty Chinooks until the government sold 18 of them. Now we have no
>> aircraft capable of moving our soldiers rapidly or getting supplies to them.
>
>Funny, I was under the impression we still operated 3 of them.
>Actually, in part I agree with him but I also recognise that the utility
>of the Chinook in the Fortress Australia strategic concept which the
>government had adopted after the 1987 White Paper, to be quite
>marginal. While they were excellent heavy lift choppers, their range
>was quite limited. With the consequence that they had difficulties
>being utilised properly in operations across the Top End. The need for
>some form of tactical, heavy lift, capability has been long recognised,
>which is why, finally the Caribou replacement program has gotten off the
>ground and is in process (although after Timor, there is talk of
>chopping it again) and instead of looking only at piss-piddling little
>transports they are looking primarily at the heavier, beefier, top end
>of the scale.
Antinovs ? ;-) ...........just kidding B^)
[snip]
>> Fixed Installations
>> Our transmitting and receiving stations were dispersed for survivability.
>> These have been closed so we rely on Telstra which is not secure. Encoded
>> messages are easily broken with computers these days.
The Defence Dept just went halvies with Optus in a
communitcations Satellite didnt they?
>> Surprise Surprise
>> We had Operation Kangaroo to see if Australia could cope with an invasion
>> from the north. Guess who the "government" brought in as independent
>> umpires. You guessed right again - Indonesian Generals.
>
>Again, another old hoary. Do you really think that acting as umpires,
>these generals would learn things they didn't already know from open
>sources?
Wasnt the point of bringing in General Try Suritsno (?) to
show Indonesia that the exercises Australia and her allies
were conducting were purely defensive in their outlook and
were not training exercises for possible future invasions of
Indonesia?
>> Navy
>> The government has done more damage to our navy than the Japs did in World
>> War II. We don' need an enemy with the ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS at the helm.
Love the detailed argument %^/
>> Aircraft Carrier
>> They got rid of the Melbourne. Our only aircraft carrier. Our economy is so
>> devastated we can never hope to replace it.
>
>In reality, the Melbourne was marginal at best. One carrier is not of
>much use, as it spends far too much time in port to be of value.
And unless it has a support group its a sitting duck looking
to become a reef should it ever see combat.
>Without at least two and more than likely three, it is impossible to
>maintain a carrier onstation in an area of operations for an extended
>period of time.
How many carriers do the US carrier battle groups contain on
average?
[..]
>> Collins Class Submarines
>> These are a disaster. They are World War II mechanics. They are noisy and
>> have to surface to charge batteries. In the seventies these type ships could
>> be tracked like bleeding elephants in the snow. They have no real defence
>> against attack and they are armed with iron torpedoes which in the 21st
>> century will be the laughing stock of the world. Our government knew this
>> when they ordered the submarines.
>
>Actually, the Collins do not have "World War II mechanics". In reality,
>they have late 1980's acoustically suppressed systems which were the
>dream of any submariner in WWII. They also have one of the best weapons
>fits and sonar systems available in our region, with perhaps only the
>Japanese and the Americans' own being superior.
>
>I have no idea why he believes they are armed with "iron torpedoes".
>They have Acoustic Homing torpedoes and sub-Harpoon subsurface launched
>anti-shipping missiles. There have been suggestions that they might be
>armed in the future with SLCM's.
Since the government is exercising its right to buy out 49%
of the Australian Submarine Corporation and onselling it to
a joint venture between a General Electric subsidiary (that
makes US nuclear subs) and Tenix, the Collins will now have
access to cutting edge US systems and the US and Australian
governments are talking about the possibility of
aquiringTomahawks for the subs- so the Fin Review said a few
weeks ago.
>> It would be kinder to shoot the crew now than let them suffer a horrible
>> death in war. Perhaps we should shoot the traitors who deliberately ordered
>> that we equip with obsolete toys.
>
>Yeah, sure. As I've just shown, this man is talking out of his arse,
>Lance. The Collins class, apart from a few relatively minor technical
>problems with their hull form are actually excellent weapons systems and
>the envy of most of the submariners in the region who recognise the
>superority of the design.
Werent the Collins class to be the the most advanced
conventionally powered subs in the world?
What gets me is that the Collins class were an entirely new
platform and because of that, teething problems are to be
expected for a decade or so.Even the US at the height of its
military industrial complex had teething problems with the
development of new platforms and alot of those problems
were, and still are worse than what the Collins class is
going through.
>> Industrial Treason
>> They put our navy boys into incendiary bombs knowing that any hit would
>> incinerate our fathers, brothers and sons. When the boat burns it is as
>> though the sailor was tied to a fireworks fountain. Any survivors are
>> horribly disfigured and often maimed. The government built these death traps
>> here in my home town, Maryborough, at Walkers Ltd.
>>
>> Our old patrol boats were completely refurbished and delivered to Indonesia.
>> John MacLean, of Hervey Bay, was the crane operator.
>>
>> Are there kickbacks
>> We bought two US Navy tank landing vessels, the Manoora and Kanimbla. Both
>> were built in 1975. We paid $61 million. Then we spent $42 million on
>> initial rust repair, $54 million on initial repair and upgrade, and then
>> another $93 million additional repair and upgrade. We still have ships 24
>> years old and obsolete. (Daily Telegraph 11/9/98).
>
>Not kickbacks, just stupidities.
B^)
> The government believed it was getting
>a bargain at the end of the cold war with the firesale which accompanied
>it. The Manoora and the Kanimbla were purchased basically sight unseen
>and the RAN has been paying for it ever since, unfortunately.
Do you reckon Moore telling the Navy to stop sniffing around
the four, 25 year old US Kidd Class Destroyers that it wants
to purchase, was related to the stuff up with the Manoora
and the Kanimbla?
>At the
>same time we got an excellent deal though, on the F-111G's from the
>USAF, so it had its ups as wellas its downs.
Since no-one seems to be making aircraft that fullfills the
fighter/bomber role of the F-111 (They dont make Tornado's
anymore do they?) - the question begs to be asked, what do
we replace them with ?
>> Foreign Pilots
>> According to the government we can't get enough Australians to train as
>> pilots for the RAAF so we are now training Singaporean, Malay and Indonesian
>> pilots to fly OUR aircraft. The government does not tell the truth. Our
>> universities are full of Aussies who would give their eye teeth to be jet
>> pilots.
>
>Yeah, sure, Lance, except the problem is that Aussies don't like service
>conditions and pay.
Funnily enough Pitt is saying something marginally correct
here.Dont we help train Singapore and Malaysian pilots to
fly C-130s? }B^D
>> In the event of a war with Asia which way would these pilots shoot and how
>> hard would they fight for us?
>
>If they are citizens, you should presume they owe their allegiance to
>Australia, mate. More racism and migrant bashing, Lance? Hardly
>surprising.
One wonders why it's always war WITH Asia that makes these
blokes piss themselves rather than the more realistic war
WITHIN Asia. There has never been a Pan-Asian alliance
against us, far from it.Why would these countries suddenly
join together while simultaneously putting aside their own
long-term inter-Asian suspicions and hostilities, and start
menacing us in a conflict that they would be lucky to even
begin, let alone sustain.
>> Olympics
>> The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
>> "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
>> control and whether they will go home.
>
>More lies. There are no such plans but what else should we expect from
>Tony Pitt?
Indonesian forces being used for crwod control at the
Olympics....deary me. }B^)
Scott steel
Lance Baker
> >> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> >> >
> >> > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> >> >
> >> > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> >> > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the
military
> >> > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> >> >
> >> > Would you like me to post that also?
> >> >
> >> Yes, including the name & the rank of the person who sent you the
eMail.
> >
> >Willing to lay money he won't produce, Bron?
>
> If I was a betting man, I'd lay money on it being a certain
> Brigadier by the name of T** S****G.
>
> Am I close Lance? }B^)
100%.
I wish I'd checked it before I opened my big mouth :-(
Brian
>
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:37:03 +1000, Brian
>
> >Bron wrote:
> >>
> >> Lance Baker <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote in message
> >> > soupnazi wrote
> >> > > Lance Baker wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> >> >
> >> > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> >> >
> >> > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> >> > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
> >> > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> >> >
> >> > Would you like me to post that also?
> >> >
> >> Yes, including the name & the rank of the person who sent you the eMail.
> >
> >Willing to lay money he won't produce, Bron?
>
> If I was a betting man, I'd lay money on it being a certain
> Brigadier by the name of T** S****G.
Now that you mention it, I too wouldn't be surprised if it was Ted.
He's fingered himself as a disciple of Pitt's in the past, if memory
serves me correctly. Unfortunately, Ted's a bit past his use by date
and has been for a long time. Who can forget that it was Ted who
advised President Theiu of South Vietnam that it was time, in 1975 to
abandon the high lands? That single decision turned a retreat into an
instant rout which led to the fall of Saigon a few months later, with
each major provincial capital falling like, well, dominos ;-) before the
advancing PAVN. So fast did the collapse occur, it surprised the PAVN
almost as much as the ARVN. Giap had planned apparently to move several
fresh units south, straight from North Vietnam to actually capture
Saigon and take the victory parade. Instead, the poor buggers who'd
done all the hard fighting since the start of the offensive just rolled
into town and were sitting there when the "special units" turned up in
their freshly starched uniforms.
> Am I close Lance? }B^)
Give you better than evens.
Brian
Well, I personally have my doubts as to whether or not Direct Energy
Weapons will be of much utility before about 2015 at the earliest,
Scott. They are simply too bulky and dangerous to operate (for their
own side, as well as the enemy, most rely at the present moment on the
burning of some pretty toxic fuels to achieve sufficient energy outputs)
and without a substantial breakthrough in the energy generation side,
won't be fielded in anything except either fixed installations or
perhaps ships for some time to come.
Telstra simply bit off more than it could chew. It apparently tried to
managed the project as if it was just another communications system,
whereas in reality it was a newly emergent radar system which required
substantially greater computing power than was originally thought.
> It was reported somewhere that (possibly in the Fin again)
> that it became operational a couple of months ago, and it
> has a max range of 3500km, from Sumatra in the West to the
> Solomon Islands in the East.This range will apparently be
> increased to a max of 7500km when the next stage is
> completed.
The original Jindalee system has been semi-operational for some time.
The network was supposed to be brought up to the same standard and be
online from about 2002, with hand over in 2003, so I'd be surprised to
see it up and running three years ahead of schedule. The ranges are
usually reported as being "conservatively stated" as being about 3,500km
mark, but I've also seen at least one report which made the point
targets were clearly identifiable out to 5,000km now. I wouldn't be
surprised to see it pushed to 7,500km but would question the value of
doing so. It could come in handy though, I admit in the South China
Sea. ;-)
For strategic airlift, I'd say it would be an idea worth persuing.
While I cannot imagine us ever fielding Russian frontline aircraft,
simply because they are still at least a generation behind the west,
transport aircrat are another thing. About 10 years ago, the Russians
when their economy first started to hit the wall, offered us several
Il-76 Candid strategic transport aircraft as part of a sweetheart deal
for wool. At the time they were knocked back because the government
preferred cash (and this was before the collapse of the wool price).
The RAAF didn't see much value in them either, being committed to
Fortress Australia. I thought it was an ideal way to get some strategic
airlift capability at a rock-bottom price. In order to justify the
expense of maintaining them, I'd have used them for commercial
airfreighters, until needed in times of crisis. I am sure the RAAF is
now, after the experience of Timor, kicking itself for not having had
the foresight to take the Il-76's on charge at the time they were
offered.
However, tactically, the Russians have nothing the west doesn't do as
well or better. As the competition has been narrowed down to basically
two aircraft, the C-27J Spartan and the Casa-295, I expect that the
Spanish aircraft will win out over the Italian one on cost grounds but
the C-27J might just win the competition on overall economic costs.
Being equipped with the same engines, propellers and cockpits as the new
C-130J's we're purchasing, could well mean that over the service life of
the aircraft, the costs are lower because we only essentially have to
train pilots on one sort of aircraft and maintain one set of spares
across two types, instead of two sets for two different types. Also it
means that when the pilots are rated, they are simply rated for the
C-130J, which improves savings yet again.
> [snip]
>
> >> Fixed Installations
> >> Our transmitting and receiving stations were dispersed for survivability.
> >> These have been closed so we rely on Telstra which is not secure. Encoded
> >> messages are easily broken with computers these days.
>
> The Defence Dept just went halvies with Optus in a
> communitcations Satellite didnt they?
Yes. SATCOMS though, are also insecure. Anything that can be
intercepted and read by your opponents is potentially insecure. Why
else do we spend millions on DSD and have specialised downlink stations
at Geraldton and Darwin to listen into the Asian satellite traffic?
> >> Surprise Surprise
> >> We had Operation Kangaroo to see if Australia could cope with an invasion
> >> from the north. Guess who the "government" brought in as independent
> >> umpires. You guessed right again - Indonesian Generals.
> >
> >Again, another old hoary. Do you really think that acting as umpires,
> >these generals would learn things they didn't already know from open
> >sources?
>
> Wasnt the point of bringing in General Try Suritsno (?) to
> show Indonesia that the exercises Australia and her allies
> were conducting were purely defensive in their outlook and
> were not training exercises for possible future invasions of
> Indonesia?
One of the rationales used. Another was to show them "how to do it"
when working closely in the military-civilian-political interface that
most of the later Kangaroo exercises have been carried out in. However,
these buggers aren't going to see anything they haven't already read
reports on, gathered by their own intelligence agencies. At the level
at which they were operating as umpires, they'd have been ensconsed at
some HQ somewhere, watching maps and listening to sitreps and being
asked to adjucate on big engagements, not the little ones where the best
intel could be gained.
> >> Navy
> >> The government has done more damage to our navy than the Japs did in World
> >> War II. We don' need an enemy with the ALP/DEM/LIB/NAT/GREENS at the helm.
>
> Love the detailed argument %^/
Typical of the populist genre. Reminds me of St.Pauline, who Pitt was
supposedly a "close advisor" of.
> >> Aircraft Carrier
> >> They got rid of the Melbourne. Our only aircraft carrier. Our economy is so
> >> devastated we can never hope to replace it.
> >
> >In reality, the Melbourne was marginal at best. One carrier is not of
> >much use, as it spends far too much time in port to be of value.
>
> And unless it has a support group its a sitting duck looking
> to become a reef should it ever see combat.
And in the case of Melbourne, no one wanted to get too close, to be part
of that support group. ;-)
There is an apocryphal story of how just before Melbourne's retirement
they decided to have a special photo taken of the grand old lady as the
flagship of the fleet. They arranged for all the major fleet units to
be in Sydney at the same time and they all put to sea. They apparently
carefully arranged everybody in columns of two and the idea was to have
Melbourne steam down the middle and a series of photos were to be
taken. Along they all steamed and then Melbourne hove into view and
proceed to her assigned position. Apparently her bows suddenly swung
and the fleet scattered! I wonder why? ;-)
> >Without at least two and more than likely three, it is impossible to
> >maintain a carrier onstation in an area of operations for an extended
> >period of time.
>
> How many carriers do the US carrier battle groups contain on
> average?
One. Each battlegroup usually has one carrier. Each fleet has usually
either two or a maximum of three battlegroups. The largest grouping was
during the Gulf War, when four were operating in the one theatre of
operations. Admittedly, one was in the Persian Gulf, two were in the
Red Sea and another in the Arabian Gulf but they were all nominally in
the one location. Each battlegroup has usually about 10-15 other
combatant units and a large number of ships in the fleet train as well.
The idea of aquiring SLCM's (Sub-Launched Cruise Missiles) for the
Collins has been mooted for several years. Personally, I think its a
fairly inflexible mode of operation for them as they'd have to sacrifice
torps/Harpoons for the missiles. I'd much rather see the Tomahawks
mounted on F-111's.
As for General Electric, well, it was just announced in this Weekend
Australian that Boeing Australia the main contractor for the weapons
system has sold its interest to Raytheon, who were the major
sub-contractor. The real problem is that the RAN actually outdid itself
in forcing a fixed-price contract on SubCorp. SubCorp wanted to upgrade
from the originally proposed systems but weren't allowed to by the terms
of the contract. The result was that as the technology shot ahead, the
RAN was forced to accept systems which were long out of date but they'd
been hoist by their own petard. They actually ended up, in the long-run
paying more for out-of-date systems than if they'd allowed SubCorp to
incorporate the newer computers in the boats' design.
Even so, the weapons and control systems are actually in advance of
those on most USN boats, which are of even earlier generations,
particularly in the Los Angeles class attack boats which are the
mainstay of the USN.
> >> It would be kinder to shoot the crew now than let them suffer a horrible
> >> death in war. Perhaps we should shoot the traitors who deliberately ordered
> >> that we equip with obsolete toys.
> >
> >Yeah, sure. As I've just shown, this man is talking out of his arse,
> >Lance. The Collins class, apart from a few relatively minor technical
> >problems with their hull form are actually excellent weapons systems and
> >the envy of most of the submariners in the region who recognise the
> >superority of the design.
>
> Werent the Collins class to be the the most advanced
> conventionally powered subs in the world?
Yep. One of the reasons why I suspect you'll find General Electric are
interested in them. GE has been trying for sometime to get back into
the conventional sub game but the USN has been blocking them. They lost
out on a lucrative contract for the last Israeli boats because the USN
won't allow US yards to build conventionally power boats for fear that
once they allow it, Congress will force them to abandon their all nuke
sub fleet policy.
> What gets me is that the Collins class were an entirely new
> platform and because of that, teething problems are to be
> expected for a decade or so.Even the US at the height of its
> military industrial complex had teething problems with the
> development of new platforms and alot of those problems
> were, and still are worse than what the Collins class is
> going through.
We have, considering the complexity of the project, actually done
reasonably well, considering we'd never built a sub in Australia
before. We are doing substantially better in many ways than either the
yanks or the poms on this one, at the moment. Both have had *_BIG_*
embarrassing mistakes in the last decade. The poms welded a hull
section on upside down in one of their new Invincible class boats while
the yanks had to scrap an entire boat, in fact the lead boat of the new
Seawolf class on the slips when it was discovered that the welds had
been done incorrectly.
> >> Industrial Treason
> >> They put our navy boys into incendiary bombs knowing that any hit would
> >> incinerate our fathers, brothers and sons. When the boat burns it is as
> >> though the sailor was tied to a fireworks fountain. Any survivors are
> >> horribly disfigured and often maimed. The government built these death traps
> >> here in my home town, Maryborough, at Walkers Ltd.
> >>
> >> Our old patrol boats were completely refurbished and delivered to Indonesia.
> >> John MacLean, of Hervey Bay, was the crane operator.
> >>
> >> Are there kickbacks
> >> We bought two US Navy tank landing vessels, the Manoora and Kanimbla. Both
> >> were built in 1975. We paid $61 million. Then we spent $42 million on
> >> initial rust repair, $54 million on initial repair and upgrade, and then
> >> another $93 million additional repair and upgrade. We still have ships 24
> >> years old and obsolete. (Daily Telegraph 11/9/98).
> >
> >Not kickbacks, just stupidities.
>
> B^)
>
> > The government believed it was getting
> >a bargain at the end of the cold war with the firesale which accompanied
> >it. The Manoora and the Kanimbla were purchased basically sight unseen
> >and the RAN has been paying for it ever since, unfortunately.
>
> Do you reckon Moore telling the Navy to stop sniffing around
> the four, 25 year old US Kidd Class Destroyers that it wants
> to purchase, was related to the stuff up with the Manoora
> and the Kanimbla?
Anything is possible. The Kidds were actually getting a little long in
the tooth and were always a bit of an oddball class, although in some
ways quite well fitted to the sort of threat environment we believe we
would be encountering, being optimised for anti-air warfare. However,
its all moot now, considering that the Kidds have been sold to Greece.
More than likely we'll end up with either an enlarged ANZAC class, in
the Meko-2000 range or even perhaps, hopefully one of the newer,
stealthier European designs which are coming on the market at the
moment. DDG-51, Arliegh Burkes would be nice but are hideously
expensive. An alternative might be the Kongo version of the Burkes but
can you imagine the screams of protest if we bought Japanese?
> >At the
> >same time we got an excellent deal though, on the F-111G's from the
> >USAF, so it had its ups as wellas its downs.
>
> Since no-one seems to be making aircraft that fullfills the
> fighter/bomber role of the F-111 (They dont make Tornado's
> anymore do they?) - the question begs to be asked, what do
> we replace them with ?
Well, its not going to happen all that soon, purely because of that.
They've just finished the digital upgrade and refurbishment and are now
talking about them lasting perhaps until 2030, instead of the originally
proposed 2015. There simply isn't all that much around that can match
them for performance, at the moment although the Su-34 comes reasonably
close, at medium/high altitude. There isn't anything that will match
them low-down though. Carlo Kopp has suggested that we should perhaps
go through to an all F-22 fleet, with some being utilised as
fighter-bombers. It would be an economic alternative in the timeframe
we're talking about and would mean we could get perhaps a reasonably
sized fleet considering the cost.
> >> Foreign Pilots
> >> According to the government we can't get enough Australians to train as
> >> pilots for the RAAF so we are now training Singaporean, Malay and Indonesian
> >> pilots to fly OUR aircraft. The government does not tell the truth. Our
> >> universities are full of Aussies who would give their eye teeth to be jet
> >> pilots.
> >
> >Yeah, sure, Lance, except the problem is that Aussies don't like service
> >conditions and pay.
>
> Funnily enough Pitt is saying something marginally correct
> here.Dont we help train Singapore and Malaysian pilots to
> fly C-130s? }B^D
Not quite. We actually host the Singaporean advanced flying school out
of Pearce, in WA. As far as I'm aware, we haven't done much in the way
of actual training of other nationalities, except perhaps PNG and a few
other Pacific nations. We do often have exchange tours with other
regional airforces, but thats a different thing entirely.
> >> In the event of a war with Asia which way would these pilots shoot and how
> >> hard would they fight for us?
> >
> >If they are citizens, you should presume they owe their allegiance to
> >Australia, mate. More racism and migrant bashing, Lance? Hardly
> >surprising.
>
> One wonders why it's always war WITH Asia that makes these
> blokes piss themselves rather than the more realistic war
> WITHIN Asia. There has never been a Pan-Asian alliance
> against us, far from it.Why would these countries suddenly
> join together while simultaneously putting aside their own
> long-term inter-Asian suspicions and hostilities, and start
> menacing us in a conflict that they would be lucky to even
> begin, let alone sustain.
Didn't you know, Scott, all "Asians" are the same, in their eyes? You
have to remember, we are talking about old-time, visions of the "yellow
peril", buck-toothed, thick glasses, grasping hands, poised to take over
our fair, white land and rape and soil our fair, white maidens?
> >> Olympics
> >> The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
> >> "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
> >> control and whether they will go home.
> >
> >More lies. There are no such plans but what else should we expect from
> >Tony Pitt?
>
> Indonesian forces being used for crwod control at the
> Olympics....deary me. }B^)
Pitt has been trying to claim that the Indonesians have been poised to
declare war on Australia now for at least the last 3-4 years that I've
been aware of him. Hes a nutter, pure and simple.
Peter Mackay
repost it. This is me responding to Bron:
In article <MPG.136b5a03...@news.bigpond.com>,
peter....@bigpond.com says...
> In article <38ff...@iridium.webone.com.au>,
> use.a...@in.the.message.com says...
> >
> > Lance Baker <la...@norcom.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:95627998...@cube.norcom.net.au...
> > > soupnazi wrote
> > > > Lance Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > > <snip pro-gun rant>
> > >
> > > > who's he work for now lancey.....penguin?
> > >
> > > He has actually quoted evidence in many places.
> > > I also have a copy of an email from somebody very high up in the military
> > > verifying that "all" of what he says is actually true.
> > >
> > > Would you like me to post that also?
> > >
> > Yes, including the name & the rank of the person who sent you the eMail.
>
> Yeah. Insist on the facts, Bron.
>
***END REPOST
Does anybody else find Bron insisting on the details of a source bizarre?
Especially when, time and again, I asked her to provide details of her
sources when she made all sorts of spurious allegations against me.
Claims that now, months later, have been shown to be baseless.
I'm happy to expose Bron's hypocrisy in this forum.
--
Cheers! Peter Mackay
peter....@bigpond.com
personal opinion only
Bron
So I take it he didn't release the information?
Bron
Reverend Zed
Peter Mackay <peter....@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.136e15e0e...@news.bigpond.com...
> I'm happy to expose Bron's hypocrisy in this forum.
And as per usual, noone gives even the slightest damn.
Gerry Orkin
<peter....@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Does anybody else find Bron insisting on the details of a source bizarre?
What I find bizarre is your silence on the matter of Estelle O'Brien's
letter. Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions? Could it be
because you are lying? Or is Estelle lying? I'd love to know. One way or
another, we have here a situation where a senior One Notion official is
lying (unless you can prove the letter is a fake - but you have had that
opportunity for weeks).
So Peter... an answer please.
Reverend Zed
> >Does anybody else find Bron insisting on the details of a source bizarre?
> What I find bizarre is your silence on the matter of Estelle O'Brien's
> letter. Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions?
Why question Peter on the matter? Present your concerns directly to Estelle
O'Brien, for the simple reason that Peter does not know how to give a
straight and honest answer on anything.
Brian
>
> Brian,
>
> So I take it he didn't release the information?
Not, directly. When Scott Steel suggested it might be Ted Serong, he
admitted as such. Ted's a bit of a roo short in the top paddock
nowadays, being tied in with all sorts of right-wing loonies, such as
Pitt and Co.
Bron
Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote in message
news:3903BD30...@apex.net.au...
>
> Not, directly. When Scott Steel suggested it might be Ted Serong, he
> admitted as such. Ted's a bit of a roo short in the top paddock
> nowadays, being tied in with all sorts of right-wing loonies, such as
> Pitt and Co.
>
forces? A breach of the Defence Act may have occurred :-D
And in this day and age Brian, it's an @ short of an eMail address :-D
There are a lot of people that feel they know a lot about the Australian
Military isn't there? Myself, i'm interested in Military history rather
than the current stuff, although I do follow (by default) what the RAAF is
up to with regards to hardware.
Bron
Lik Mai Sak
> And as per usual, noone gives even the slightest damn.
That Coppins guy did!
E.
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > Lance Baker wrote:
>
> > > Thanks for that Brian.
>
> > > I tend to agree with you on most parts.
> > > But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>
> > > > > Olympics
> > > > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian
> troops
> > > > > for
> > > > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they
> will
> > > > > and
> > > > > control and whether they will go home.
> >
> > out of his arse?
> >
> > >
> > > I'll see if I can get his email address and ask him.
and?
where is it?
where's the email from the guy high up in the military
that verifies all
your bullshit claims?
you're a racist and a fucking liar.....full stop....
> > >
> > > ..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
> > > something about our children learning Indonesian compolsury in school.
> > > It is compulsory for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
> >
> > you sure about that lancey.....
>
> Well let me see. I have 2 children. The oldest spent her first 4 years of
> school in Perth - in all 4 years Indonesian was compulsory. My son who is 2
> years younger also had compulsory Indonesian.
> Now we live in the north west (Port Hedland) - they are in the school here -
> and guess what?
they've just discovered their old mans a LIAR
as well as a racist wanker?
> Indonesian is compulsory for both again.
read my lips dickhead.....
INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
the 'lanquages other than english' part students
have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
choices which vary from school to school....
your apology goes here:
>
> > i think your telling porkies again.........
>
> It must be a sad life not to have children.
so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
racist rednecks like yourself.....
i pity your poor children.....
if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
them with bullshit is one......
give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
Lance Baker
> where's the email from the guy high up in the military
> that verifies all your bullshit claims?
Displayed on a website.
As I have already implied before in other threads here in aus.politics.
I was mistaken - it was actually a "retired" brigadier.
As for the rest of your post...
...how anybody can take you seriously is beyond me.
> you're a racist and a fucking liar.....full stop....
> they've just discovered their old mans a LIAR
> as well as a racist wanker?
> read my lips dickhead.....
>
> INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
>
> the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> choices which vary from school to school....
>
> your apology goes here:
> so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote
>
> > where's the email from the guy high up in the military
> > that verifies all your bullshit claims?
>
> Displayed on a website.
> As I have already implied before in other threads here in aus.politics.
> I was mistaken - it was actually a "retired" brigadier.
>
> As for the rest of your post...
> ...how anybody can take you seriously is beyond me.
alas, everything seems to be beyond you, dunnit liar??
name the four schools you claim offer indonesian
as a compulsory subject??
id like to check for myself as you're
nothing but a racist liar who cant be trusted....
put up.......or FUCK off.......
>
> > you're a racist and a fucking liar.....full stop....
>
> > they've just discovered their old mans a LIAR
> > as well as a racist wanker?
>
> > read my lips dickhead.....
> >
> > INDONESIAN IS NOT COMPULSORY STATEWIDE........
> >
> > the curriculum is divided into eight sections....in
> > the 'lanquages other than english' part students
> > have a choice......indonesian is ONE of those
> > choices which vary from school to school....
> >
> > your apology goes here:
>
> > so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
>
> > whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
> > racist rednecks like yourself.....
>
> > i pity your poor children.....
>
> > if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
> > having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
> > them with bullshit is one......
>
> > give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
--
Lance Baker
> name the four schools you claim offer indonesian
> as a compulsory subject??
> id like to check for myself as you're
> nothing but a racist liar who cant be trusted....
>
> put up.......or FUCK off.......
You want me to give you the names of my children's schools?
You have got to be joking.
soupnazi
ha !
its ME....who should be concerned about YOU.....you
fucking redneck racist wanker !
but im a reasonable man.....
lets compromise......how about the ones
they're no longer at??
or are you just a fucking LIAR....plain and simple??
time to put your 'facts' on the table chimp.......
Lance Baker
> lets compromise......how about the ones
> they're no longer at??
Mary McKillop Catholic Primary School, Yangebup.
1999 - grade 4 & 2
1998 - grade 3 & 1
1997 - grade 2
1996 - grade 1
The other 3 examples I will not give you.
Two of the are public schools that my nethews are still attending.
The other one is a private school which my children are currently attending.
Gerry Orkin
>Why question Peter on the matter? Present your concerns directly to
>Estelle
>O'Brien, for the simple reason that Peter does not know how to give a
>straight and honest answer on anything.
And nor does Estelle O'Brien, apparently. I have written to her asking
for confirmation of the facts presented in her letter, but I've had no
reply. Perhaps she is staying silent for fear of further destroying One
Notion's credibility (although that would be hard to do, since they
started with none).
Brian
>
> Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote in message
> news:3903BD30...@apex.net.au...
> >
> > Not, directly. When Scott Steel suggested it might be Ted Serong, he
> > admitted as such. Ted's a bit of a roo short in the top paddock
> > nowadays, being tied in with all sorts of right-wing loonies, such as
> > Pitt and Co.
> >
> Ted Serong, is he a member of the Dept of Defence or a member of the Armed
> forces? A breach of the Defence Act may have occurred :-D
Ex, very, very, ex. He resigned from the Army in about 1972, if memory
serves me correctly.
> And in this day and age Brian, it's an @ short of an eMail address :-D
I stand corrected, Bron.
> There are a lot of people that feel they know a lot about the Australian
> Military isn't there? Myself, i'm interested in Military history rather
> than the current stuff, although I do follow (by default) what the RAAF is
> up to with regards to hardware.
All of it has its place, Bron. In a politics newsgroup, defence policy
is obviously a very valid talking point.
Tony Pitt would prefer to still be living in the 1960's, I suspect, so
you should be right at home discussing his views. ;-)
Bron
>
> Ex, very, very, ex. He resigned from the Army in about 1972, if memory
> serves me correctly.
Yeah, probably about the same time my dad got out. I would still like it
confirmed, seems to me just another wannabe spouting off about stuff they
know very little (if anything) about.
>
> I stand corrected, Bron.
Wooooooooo, I scored a point :-D ... ALT+P (to print it out, frame it and
hang it on the wall!)
>
> All of it has its place, Bron. In a politics newsgroup, defence policy
> is obviously a very valid talking point.
But it's all speculation as those who know are covered by the Defence Act
and whilst we do know people who's respect for the law is _0_, people do get
charged under the DA, i've met someone.
>
> Tony Pitt would prefer to still be living in the 1960's, I suspect, so
> you should be right at home discussing his views. ;-)
>
I like to discuss topics of interest to me (such as historical military
issues) with people who aren't loonies :-D
Bron
Brian
> > I stand corrected, Bron.
>
> Wooooooooo, I scored a point :-D ... ALT+P (to print it out, frame it and
> hang it on the wall!)
A point, not a goal, Bron, only a point.
> > All of it has its place, Bron. In a politics newsgroup, defence policy
> > is obviously a very valid talking point.
>
> But it's all speculation as those who know are covered by the Defence Act
> and whilst we do know people who's respect for the law is _0_, people do get
> charged under the DA, i've met someone.
Of course they do. I'm no longer covered by it and I only post things
which are in open sources anyway.
> > Tony Pitt would prefer to still be living in the 1960's, I suspect, so
> > you should be right at home discussing his views. ;-)
> >
>
> I like to discuss topics of interest to me (such as historical military
> issues) with people who aren't loonies :-D
Then you won't like Tony, then. ;-)
Bron
> Bron wrote:
> >
>
> A point, not a goal, Bron, only a point.
Hmmm.. merely a failed attempt to lessen the victory !
>
> Of course they do. I'm no longer covered by it and I only post things
> which are in open sources anyway.
:) which would lead me to believe that his "source" isn't "high in the
Defence Forces".
> > I like to discuss topics of interest to me (such as historical military
> > issues) with people who aren't loonies :-D
>
> Then you won't like Tony, then. ;-)
>
There are a few people like that, my killfile is full of them.
Bron
ralph
<calabri...@global.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>Lance Baker wrote:
>>
>>
>> It must be a sad life not to have children.
>
>so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
>
>whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
>racist rednecks like yourself.....
>
>i pity your poor children.....
>
>if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
>having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
>them with bullshit is one......
>
>give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
>
I trust you have heard about the Elian Gonzalez case in the United
States?
In that case, the kidnapping of a child was condoned by the
right-wingers because the father didn't share their ideology.
I think the term is "social engineering" ;-)
Ironic how close the Marxists and Fascists really are in practice.
Peter Mackay
use.a...@in.the.message.com says...
> There are a lot of people that feel they know a lot about the Australian
> Military isn't there? Myself, i'm interested in Military history rather
> than the current stuff, although I do follow (by default) what the RAAF is
> up to with regards to hardware.
>
Once again I raise the prospect of a group to discuss issues such as
this. aus.general would be (by default) the obvious choice, but it's
really so much a crosspost overflow from idiots who don't know how the
system works that it's very noisy.
As for Bron's interest in military history, well I dunno. If it's
anything like her other interests, it's probably a bit on the light side.
I'm reading Jeff Saabra's "The Last Full Measure" at the moment, which is
the third in the father son trilogy of "Gods and Generals" and "Killer
Angels".
A pity we don't have work of this quality for (say) WW1 to make the
campaigns and personalities clear to the reading public. Charles Bean
covers it all from Anzac on, but he tends to be a little encyclopaedic,
and his big thick square volumes aren't terribly accessible.
Remember that series with Paul Hogan in it? Followed a group from
enlistment all the way through Anzac and France. If there was a book
covering the same territory in a medium level of detail, that would be a
winner.
Kimbo
Peter Mackay wrote in message ...
>In article <3903...@iridium.webone.com.au>,
>use.a...@in.the.message.com says...
>> There are a lot of people that feel they know a lot about the Australian
>> Military isn't there? Myself, i'm interested in Military history rather
>> than the current stuff, although I do follow (by default) what the RAAF
is
>> up to with regards to hardware.
>>
>
>Once again I raise the prospect of a group to discuss issues such as
>this. aus.general would be (by default) the obvious choice, but it's
>really so much a crosspost overflow from idiots who don't know how the
>system works that it's very noisy.
>
The first rule of this group would be to ban Peter 'Albert' Mackay.
This would be unanimously endorsed by all, of course.
You are the cross-post king/queen PAMK, no-one else.
Pot
Kettle
Black
etc.
etc.
etc.
soupnazi
rowlf wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:33:55 GMT, soupnazi
> <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Lance Baker wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It must be a sad life not to have children.
> >
> >so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
> >
> >whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
> >racist rednecks like yourself.....
> >
> >i pity your poor children.....
> >
> >if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
> >having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
> >them with bullshit is one......
> >
> >give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
> >
>
> I trust you have heard about the Elian Gonzalez case in the United
> States?
>
> In that case, the kidnapping of a child was condoned by the
> right-wingers because the father didn't share their ideology.
who was the kidnapper?
the pigs or the kids cousins ?
>
> I think the term is "social engineering" ;-)
>
> Ironic how close the Marxists and Fascists really are in practice.
certainly in the brutality of the state apparatus stakes.....
you think the states are fascist ?
Brian
>
> Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote in message
> news:39045FA4...@apex.net.au...
> > Bron wrote:
> > >
> >
> > A point, not a goal, Bron, only a point.
>
> Hmmm.. merely a failed attempt to lessen the victory !
No, just a more realistic appraisal of a minor setback, from my
viewpoint. ;-)
> > Of course they do. I'm no longer covered by it and I only post things
> > which are in open sources anyway.
>
> :) which would lead me to believe that his "source" isn't "high in the
> Defence Forces".
'cause he isn't.
> > > I like to discuss topics of interest to me (such as historical military
> > > issues) with people who aren't loonies :-D
> >
> > Then you won't like Tony, then. ;-)
> >
>
> There are a few people like that, my killfile is full of them.
Oooooh, now I _am_ worried. ;-)
addinall
David Moss <d-m...@ADFA.EDU.AU> wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> >
> > Peter Lawrence wrote:
> [cut]
>
> > > These are connected
to what you just
> > > mentioned. You omit the optical sight problem - I've seen first
hand accounts
> > > that this can be a real issue in the field, and it's one reason
why the FAMAS
> > > has blade sights. I like the idea of having a fallback blade
sight, myself.
> >
> > I agree, but the Steyr is too short a weapon to allow iron sights
to be
> > fitted, whilst the sight line is rather too low to such an
arrangement t
> > be easily accomodated. [cut]
>
> The Austyr does have an "over the top" sighting system of sorts.
> There is a vee moulded into the top of the optical sight housing and a
> raised mark at the muzzle of the barrel in lieu of a foresight blade.
> I've fired it using this fallback system with reasonable accuracy.
> Certainly good enough for snap shooting.
>
> The optical sight on the Austyr, far from being a problem, is a major
> advantage.
> The accuracy compared with the old SLR is amazing.
> And you don't need to be built like a rugby forward to use the thing
> either.
Huh? A .308 is a tiny round, whaddya talking about.
Things start to get a bit heavy with a .30/06 then get
crappy with a .375H&H.
Jeez.... What did they teach you air force pukes?
> Not to mention carry it to the action.
>
> IMO anyone who yearns for the days of the L1A1 or the .303 probably
> hasn't fired a styr.
>
> DM
> personal opinion only
Pointless as usual.
The DoD is stil buying rifles chambered in 7.62 remember?
Mark (woomera) Addinall
UBANGI!!!
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
plaw...@arcbs.redcross.org.au
.
.
> The optical sight on the Austyr, far from being a problem, is a major
> advantage.
> The accuracy compared with the old SLR is amazing.
> And you don't need to be built like a rugby forward to use the thing
> either.
>
> IMO anyone who yearns for the days of the L1A1 or the .303 probably
> hasn't fired a styr.
You have completely misunderstood the generic criticisms that get
made about optical sights. People don't complain about the good
job they do, when they work - they complain that when they get
mucked up, muddy or frozen or whatever, they don't do the job at
all. I've seen this criticism made about sights, not about specific
weapons - it only turns into a criticism at that level if it gets
procrustean about it, insisting one size fits all so the weapon
requires the optical sight.
BTW, if you're going to allow snap shooting AND optical systems, a
single point sight is far superior. PML.
plaw...@arcbs.redcross.org.au
Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote:
> Peter Lawrence wrote:
.
.
.
> > My limited experience with rifles told me a few of the questions,
and I did a
> > little reading around to find some partial answers. TENTATIVELY, it
seems
> > that delayed blowback systems like the (older) Heckler-Koch and
FAMAS are
> > more suited to Australian conditions than the Steyr, just as was
the Owen
> > submachine gun, and for similar reasons.
>
> Actually, as all such weapons fire from a closed bolt and fitted with
> lightweight barrels, they would all suffer from the same problems.
> Whilst the delated blowback system with its roller bearings would have
> IMO been just as many problems with sand ingestion as would the Steyr
> with its rotating bolt design.
The Heckler-Koch has been reported as being able to fire in really
filthy conditions with maintenance omitted. Sorry, I can't supply
references - but I found them using a straightforward internet
search. The FAMAS doesn't actually use roller bearings.
.
.
.
> > Since the FAMAS has had repeated tropical trials with feedback to
the
> > manufacturers, I have to say it sounds as if it would have been the
best
> > bullpup prototype to build from, not the Steyr. That does NOT mean
it's
> > better than the adapted Steyr we now have, with all its own
development on
> > top.
>
> The FAMAS is like most French weapons a bit of a "camel". Its barrel
is
> optimised, unusually to fire the M193 round, rather than the SS109
one,
> which is the standard which most of the world has adopted. Further,
its
> design was put together by a committee who weren't really that sure as
> to what they wanted in the end, by all accounts. Its surprising that
> its worked as well as it has. "le Trombone" is a good design but it
> hasn't necessarily arrived there easily nor necessarily in the best
> method.
That's what I was getting at, with its feedback from actual field
use getting to the manufacturer.
>
> > > I can think of no good reason to fire one on full auto except in a
> > > panic situation.
> >
> > Which can happen - see Guevara. The melting report I saw had the
Army or
> > whoever saying "the soldier shouldn't have been shooting it that
way",
> > omitting the possibility it might be needed. That's the sort of
thinking that
> > leaves off a bayonet as unnecessary.
>
> Well, doctrine states you don't fire for extended periods on
> fully-auto. Personally I'd have preferred if they'd had a burst
> limiter, such as the M16a2 has. Interestingly, at the time we and the
> rest of the world were adopting weapons capable of full-auto, the
yanks,
> working on their experience in Vietnam adopted a weapon with a
> burst-limiter. Funny that, hey?
As long as the designers don't read "can" as "must", we don't get
procrustean problems. Sure, you ought to fire in bursts rather than
continuously. But making it impossible to do otherwise makes it
impossible to cope with the occasional times you have to.
>
> > > Please stop trying to make Australians anxious with regard to our
> > > soldiers personal weaponry.
> >
> > Seriously, it's a real issue. Either there's no problem and this was
> > pointless - or it's a problem. Either way, it's WRONG to measure
the question
> > by whether it might worry people. Best not to worry them? Not my
style. PML.
>
> Its really only an issue if you believe loons like Tony Pitt who have
> yet to realise that the world has changed since when they were in the
> military.
If his opposition is just as loony, it's still a problem. Are they
the sort who say, "Oh, you don't need bayonets these days"? I
put that as a test as it's an old chestnut - nearly every generation
of smartarses thinks it knows best about that one, then the lesson
gets learned the hard way. Maybe one day it'll be true, but I'd
still rather see hard evidence than mere expert assertion. It's
the sort of test question that's more useful for what it tells
you about the answerer than about the answer - if the expert is
basically saying "trust me, I'm an expert", I know not to trust him
because bayonets are an issue that experts have been wrong about
before. If the expert doesn't even know he has to back his position
because people have been bitten before, he's not much of an expert.
Deadly
subject. Most schools provide between 3 and five languauges and
the students are exposed to a couple in the first year of doing a
foreigm language and then choose which one they will do in depth.
On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:03:43 +1200, David Moss <d-m...@ADFA.EDU.AU>
wrote:
>Lance Baker wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for that Brian.
>>
>> I tend to agree with you on most parts.
>> But one thing that interests me is where he got the idea of this one?
>>
>> > > Olympics
>> > > The government has a plan to bring out thousands of Indonesian troops for
>> > > "crowd control" during the 2000 olympics. I wonder which crowd they will and
>> > > control and whether they will go home.
>
>Total crap. Take it from me.
>
>..oh yeh, he did bring up another thing that caught my eye.
>> something about our children learning Indonesian compulsury in school.
>> It is compulsury for my children in Western Australia (statewide)
>> What other states is it compulsury? (Australian wide?)
>
>It stands to reason that WA would want to encourage its people to
>speak Indonesian for purely economoc reasons. Its the closest foreign
>country to WA and the business, and in time tourism, potential is
>huge.
>I wouldn't read a conspiracy theory into what is just good business.
>
>DM
>personal opinion only
soupnazi
rowlf wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:33:55 GMT, soupnazi
> <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Lance Baker wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It must be a sad life not to have children.
> >
> >so you're lying again.......tut tut chimp......
> >
> >whats sad is children being indocrinated by shitpig
> >racist rednecks like yourself.....
> >
> >i pity your poor children.....
> >
> >if ever there was a good reason for kids to be stolen,
> >having a lying racist cunt for an old man filling
> >them with bullshit is one......
> >
> >give em up lance.....it's their only hope......
> >
>
> I trust you have heard about the Elian Gonzalez case in the United
> States?
>
> In that case, the kidnapping of a child was condoned by the
> right-wingers because the father didn't share their ideology.
what kidnapping?
you making shit up again, rowlf?
>
> I think the term is "social engineering" ;-)
>
> Ironic how close the Marxists and Fascists really are in practice.
certainly in the brutality of the state apparatus stakes.....
but im really interested in why you
think the states are fascist.....
soupnazi
Lance Baker wrote:
>
> soupnazi <calabri...@global.net.au> wrote in message
> > but im a reasonable man.....
> > lets compromise......how about the ones
> > they're no longer at??
>
> Mary McKillop Catholic Primary School, Yangebup.
>
> 1999 - grade 4 & 2
> 1998 - grade 3 & 1
> 1997 - grade 2
> 1996 - grade 1
>
> The other 3 examples I will not give you.
yeh yeh yeh....how fucking convenient....
> Two of the are public schools that my nethews are still attending.
> The other one is a private school which my children are currently attending.
first you wank on about indonesian being compulsory
statewide.....now you offer me only 'one' example??
thats why no-one takes YOU seriously you fucking
redneck.........
but, anyway i did me own, albeit brief, research using
the following primary schools.....
1. newman college, floreat...........italian
2. marist college, churchlands.......italian
3. iona college, mossie park.........italian
4. st michaels, bassendean...........italian & indonesian
5. st brigids, midland...............italian
6. mackillop, ballajura..............italian
7. good shepherd, lockridge..........italian
8. st anthony's, greenmount..........italian
9. infant jesus, morley..............italian & indonesian
10.mackillop, yangebup...............indonesian
might be time to revise your conspiracy theory
chimp...........
seems the real 'threat' will come from the italians....
so chimp.....i think its time you retracted your
indonesian is compulsory statewide bullshit and
got over it.......
retraction goes here:_______________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
>
> > or are you just a fucking LIAR....plain and simple??
> >
> > time to put your 'facts' on the table chimp.......
--
Brian
> In article <38FFE88A...@apex.net.au>,
> Brian <br...@apex.net.au> wrote:
> > Peter Lawrence wrote:
> > > My limited experience with rifles told me a few of the questions,
> and I did a
> > > little reading around to find some partial answers. TENTATIVELY, it
> seems
> > > that delayed blowback systems like the (older) Heckler-Koch and
> FAMAS are
> > > more suited to Australian conditions than the Steyr, just as was
> the Owen
> > > submachine gun, and for similar reasons.
> >
> > Actually, as all such weapons fire from a closed bolt and fitted with
> > lightweight barrels, they would all suffer from the same problems.
> > Whilst the delated blowback system with its roller bearings would have
> > IMO been just as many problems with sand ingestion as would the Steyr
> > with its rotating bolt design.
>
> The Heckler-Koch has been reported as being able to fire in really
> filthy conditions with maintenance omitted. Sorry, I can't supply
> references - but I found them using a straightforward internet
> search. The FAMAS doesn't actually use roller bearings.
I didn't think it did but couldn't remember for sure. I've heard rather
mixed reports about the roller-bearing locking system. As far as
simplicity of design and ease of manufacture, it can't be beat IMO,
having been designed under wartime conditions to allow exactly that but
I've also read reports that it needs some degree of care, purely because
if the roller-bearings don't get the require amount of care, they tend
to sieze, which then renders the weapon hores de'combat.
> > > Since the FAMAS has had repeated tropical trials with feedback to
> the
> > > manufacturers, I have to say it sounds as if it would have been the
> best
> > > bullpup prototype to build from, not the Steyr. That does NOT mean
> it's
> > > better than the adapted Steyr we now have, with all its own
> development on
> > > top.
> >
> > The FAMAS is like most French weapons a bit of a "camel". Its barrel
> is
> > optimised, unusually to fire the M193 round, rather than the SS109
> one,
> > which is the standard which most of the world has adopted. Further,
> its
> > design was put together by a committee who weren't really that sure as
> > to what they wanted in the end, by all accounts. Its surprising that
> > its worked as well as it has. "le Trombone" is a good design but it
> > hasn't necessarily arrived there easily nor necessarily in the best
> > method.
>
> That's what I was getting at, with its feedback from actual field
> use getting to the manufacturer.
No, in fact the point I was making was that it was foisted on the French
Army, basically as a complete unit. The French don't necessarily
believe in "user feedback", having had a long history of the "experts
know best". Their GPMG, the AA-52 has some rather unusual
characteristics which are more a consequence of the users not being
allowed to provide feedback, whilst the predecessor of "le Trombone" was
an atrocious weapon, if memory serves me correctly.
I remember reading, many years ago, in an article in a defence journal
when "le Trombone" was introduced, that the French Army wasn't happy
with some aspects of it (particularly the barrel twist being optimised
for M193) but was told "tough".
> > > > I can think of no good reason to fire one on full auto except in a
> > > > panic situation.
> > >
> > > Which can happen - see Guevara. The melting report I saw had the
> Army or
> > > whoever saying "the soldier shouldn't have been shooting it that
> way",
> > > omitting the possibility it might be needed. That's the sort of
> thinking that
> > > leaves off a bayonet as unnecessary.
> >
> > Well, doctrine states you don't fire for extended periods on
> > fully-auto. Personally I'd have preferred if they'd had a burst
> > limiter, such as the M16a2 has. Interestingly, at the time we and the
> > rest of the world were adopting weapons capable of full-auto, the
> yanks,
> > working on their experience in Vietnam adopted a weapon with a
> > burst-limiter. Funny that, hey?
>
> As long as the designers don't read "can" as "must", we don't get
> procrustean problems. Sure, you ought to fire in bursts rather than
> continuously. But making it impossible to do otherwise makes it
> impossible to cope with the occasional times you have to.
I agree. Don't get me wrong, the M16a2 has both modes available. It
has an amazing (by normal standards) four position selection lever -
Safe, Single, Burst and Auto. The burst limiter is interesting 'cause
its a pretty solid little mechanical design, by all accounts. I'd have
liked to see something similar on the Steyr and I understand that the
AUG's successor, which was entered for the US Army's small arms
competition (which looked like a streamlined AUG, if anything) had one
fitted.
> > > > Please stop trying to make Australians anxious with regard to our
> > > > soldiers personal weaponry.
> > >
> > > Seriously, it's a real issue. Either there's no problem and this was
> > > pointless - or it's a problem. Either way, it's WRONG to measure
> the question
> > > by whether it might worry people. Best not to worry them? Not my
> style. PML.
> >
> > Its really only an issue if you believe loons like Tony Pitt who have
> > yet to realise that the world has changed since when they were in the
> > military.
>
> If his opposition is just as loony, it's still a problem. Are they
> the sort who say, "Oh, you don't need bayonets these days"? I
> put that as a test as it's an old chestnut - nearly every generation
> of smartarses thinks it knows best about that one, then the lesson
> gets learned the hard way. Maybe one day it'll be true, but I'd
> still rather see hard evidence than mere expert assertion. It's
> the sort of test question that's more useful for what it tells
> you about the answerer than about the answer - if the expert is
> basically saying "trust me, I'm an expert", I know not to trust him
> because bayonets are an issue that experts have been wrong about
> before. If the expert doesn't even know he has to back his position
> because people have been bitten before, he's not much of an expert.
There are big arguments in both directions. IMO, as an ex-digger I have
a lot of respect for the bayonet but at the same time I recognise that
very few casualties have been caused by it, since the turn of the last
century. Most armies have a similar opinion, which why they have become
transformed somewhat from the utilitarian kitchen knife or even spike,
to more of a sort of delux, Swiss-Army, utility knife. Most modern
bayonets are designed to be wirecutters and in the case of the Israeli
one, even has a bottle-opener attached to it.
Personally, I like the British Army's habit of fixing bayonets when they
undertake an attack. As one correspondant of mine points out, its a
marvellous "fixer of the mind" when you're given the command "Bayonets!
On! Fix!" And then ordered to advance. I think its something the ADF
could learn and utilise itself but the Brits have had relatively recent
experience in using the bayonet whereas the last time the Australian
Army did so, it was a measure of the sheer desperation of a really tight
situation which nearly became one of our worst defeats, and that was
over 34 years ago.