Down to the nuts and bolts
Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF
Knowing technology well enough to be able to repair it is a lost art, writes
Patricia Maunder.
'WE NEED a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and old-fashioned
gumption," wrote Robert Pirsig in 1974's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance. This seminal book is ostensibly about a motorcycle road trip but
the narrative is primarily a framework for his philosophical reflections,
centering on the view that modern "man is separated from what he does".
Pirsig's prime example is the road-tripper who intentionally remained ignorant
of how to maintain or repair his motorcycle, then became angry if it broke down.
When Zen was published, society had, according to its author, become divided
into Romantics (creative people "living in the moment") and Classicists
(practical, logical types). He argued that quality of life could only be
achieved by straddling these attitudes: Classicists should embrace "irrational"
notions such as intuition and Romantics meaningfully engage with the technology
they use.
How relevant are Pirsig's views 35 years on?
Because of the "sheer technical sophistication of modern sports bikes, along
with the need for specialist diagnostic equipment ... I don't service my
motorbike any more", says Andy Gelme, a motorcyclist of 25 years and a fan of
Pirsig.
A distributed systems engineer, Mr Gelme adds that many common devices, from
computers to mobiles, "are too complex for any one person to completely
understand, from the base hardware to the complete stack of software". However,
that doesn't mean we should throw up our hands in despair or wash them of
personal responsibility.
Arguably, there is still a need for "old-fashioned gumption" — a need to retain
some mastery over tools we rely on and to explore others' potential.
Mr Gelme still performs basic checks on aspects of his bike not dependent on
specialised knowledge or equipment, such as tyres and fluids — "as should every
bike rider, for their own safety and ease of mind", he says. This "ease of mind"
goes deep, even more so in this technological age than for Pirsig's Luddite
motorcyclist, whose frustration resulted from feeling powerless.
Training people re-entering the workforce has shown Veechi Curtis how
"technology can either be empowering or an impediment, depending on their
attitude to it", she says. An author of numerous books about small business and
accounting software, including Dummies guides, Curtis says that when technology
becomes a barrier, "it can be very disempowering because people aren't really
understanding what's going on in their business".
Of course, the most common tools in our business and personal lives have
user-friendly interfaces, enabling the least tech-savvy to use them. An
unfortunate side-effect of this, Mr Gelme says, is that "general users of
technology have no idea about how an appliance really works, which means they
may not know how to use it most effectively or repair it".
He adds: "Hiding the internal operation with an intuitive interface is
compounded by the manufacturer's natural tendencies to protect their product
from competitors and to increase sales by ensuring broken appliances have to be
replaced, not repaired." This is achieved mainly through proprietary software.
Mr Gelme argues that society's almost enforced predilection for discarding
broken things is no longer acceptable, given our limited resources and the
environmental repercussions. Furthermore, he believes manufacturers should not
"lock you out of your own possessions", preventing their repair or other
interventions to fully utilise their potential.
Enter the hackers. No, not malicious geeks who break into computer systems —
"true" hackers refer to them as "crackers". The word's original meaning, which
persists among the cognoscenti, is people "who hack together technologies and
systems to build cool things", Con Zymaris says.
"Hackers are the people that built the personal computer and the internet," says
Mr Zymaris, whose company, Cybersource, assists businesses to migrate from
proprietary software to open-source alternatives.
"These are examples of users who produced benefits, spectacular, world-changing
benefits, through gaining an understanding of the technologies at their disposal
and extending them in new and interesting ways."
In recent years, hackers with diverse skills and interests, from electronics to
performance art, have banded together to form "hackerspaces". By sharing
knowledge, equipment and physical spaces, they can overcome the barriers of
complexity in many products.
Hackers show Pirsig's "old-fashioned gumption" in action and also demonstrate
Romantic and Classical thinking in tandem — new technology is the result of
creativity and intuition, not just logic and reason.
Arguably, these two perspectives are increasingly coming together. As technology
goes mainstream, creative people such as musicians and digital artists embrace
it and good design becomes important to products' usability and appeal.
The author of Click Here, Rich Evans, an internet development and online
marketing consultant, says that when Zen was written, technology was "quite
ugly". Computers, for example, were "brown boxes" with "horrible, glowing green
screens". The internet, he says, was the first instance "in a very long time, of
design and technology coming back together", as its success is as much dependent
on form as function.
Evans points to "one school of thought that Apple's not a technology company;
they're a design company". The success of offerings such as the iPod is due to
the fact that "it's a nicely designed product that's easy to use", he says.
Of course, inventing the internet or designing the iPod is out of most people's
league but a basic mastery of essential tools is possible. This may require
consulting manuals (Pirsig wrote computer manuals and advocated their use and
clear presentation). Increasingly, helpful online forums and wikis are other
options, whatever "art of maintenance" is being attempted.
A co-founder of Melbourne HackerSpace, and an advocate of Pirsig's view that
"the real cycle you're working on is a cycle called 'yourself"', Mr Gelme
concludes that "being able to understand, repair and, best of all, customise
technology to suit new purposes provides a better quality of life. It empowers
people to innovate and helps them avoid feelings of powerlessness.
"Everyone should insist on open standards for all infrastructure and, whenever
possible, open-source design and good documentation for all appliances,
equipment and tools, so that we can repair and re-use them as much as possible."
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ipvdBnU8F8
- KRudd at his finest.
"The Labour Party is corrupt beyond redemption!"
- Labour hasbeen Mark Latham in a moment of honest clarity.
"This is the recession we had to have!"
- Paul Keating explaining why he gave Australia another Labour recession.
"Silly old bugger!"
- Well known ACTU pisspot and sometime Labour prime minister Bob Hawke
responding to a pensioner who dared ask for more.
"By 1990, no child will live in poverty"
- Bob Hawke again, desperate to win another election.
"A billion trees ..."
- Borke, pissed as a newt again.
"Well may we say 'God save the Queen' because nothing will save the governor
general!"
- Egotistical shithead and pompous fuckwit E.G. Whitlam whining about his
appointee for Governor General John Kerr.
"SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU DUMB CUNT!"
- FlangesBum on learning the truth about Labour's economic capabilities.
"I don't care what you fuckers think!"
- KRudd the KRude at his finest again.
"We'll just change it all when we get in."
- Garrett the carrott
Rod Speed
> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/down-to-the-nuts-and-bolts-20091104-hwfq.html
> Knowing technology well enough to be able to repair it is a lost art,
> writes Patricia Maunder.
Yes, it makes more sense to replace most of it than to repair it.
> 'WE NEED a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and
> old-fashioned gumption," wrote Robert Pirsig in 1974's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. This seminal book is
> ostensibly about a motorcycle road trip but the narrative is primarily a framework for his philosophical reflections,
> centering on the view that modern "man is separated from what he does".
> Pirsig's prime example is the road-tripper who intentionally remained ignorant of how to maintain or repair his
> motorcycle, then became angry if it broke down.
And then the world moved on with PCs most obviously.
> When Zen was published, society had, according to its author, become divided into Romantics (creative people "living
> in the moment") and Classicists (practical, logical types).
That had happened a hell of a long time before that.
> He argued that quality of life could only be achieved by straddling these attitudes: Classicists should embrace
> "irrational" notions such as intuition and Romantics meaningfully engage with the technology they use.
Hordes of them arent capable of doing either.
> How relevant are Pirsig's views 35 years on?
Not very.
> Because of the "sheer technical sophistication of modern sports
> bikes, along with the need for specialist diagnostic equipment ... I don't service my motorbike any more", says Andy
> Gelme, a motorcyclist of 25 years and a fan of Pirsig.
And hordes arent stupid enough to bother with a motorbike at all.
> A distributed systems engineer, Mr Gelme adds that many common
> devices, from computers to mobiles, "are too complex for any one
> person to completely understand, from the base hardware to the
> complete stack of software". However, that doesn't mean we should
> throw up our hands in despair or wash them of personal responsibility.
> Arguably, there is still a need for "old-fashioned gumption" - a need to retain some mastery over tools we rely on and
> to explore others' potential.
There is no need when they are so trivially replaceable for
peanuts and the technology keeps moving on so dramatically.
Its different with technology like cutlery that has stopped advancing
much, but then it doesnt need any real maintenance except being
tossed in the dishwasher when its been used etc.
> Mr Gelme still performs basic checks on aspects of his bike not
> dependent on specialised knowledge or equipment, such as tyres and fluids - "as should every bike rider, for their own
> safety and ease of mind", he says. This "ease of mind" goes deep, even more so in this technological age than for
> Pirsig's Luddite motorcyclist, whose frustration resulted from feeling powerless.
And you dont need to bother with a decently designed laptop.
> Training people re-entering the workforce
Its only the dregs that need any 'training'
> has shown Veechi Curtis how "technology can either be empowering or an impediment, depending on their attitude to it",
> she says.
Must be one of those rocket scientist stupids.
> An author of numerous books about small business and accounting software, including Dummies guides,
Hardly anyone bothers with shit like that anymore.
> Curtis says that when technology becomes a barrier, "it can be very disempowering because people aren't really
> understanding what's going on in their business".
Waffle.
> Of course, the most common tools in our business and personal lives have user-friendly interfaces, enabling the least
> tech-savvy to use them. An unfortunate side-effect of this, Mr Gelme says, is that "general users of technology have
> no idea about how an appliance really works,
They dont need to. Just like they dont need to know how
an internal combustion engine works for a car to be useful.
> which means they may not know how to use it most effectively
If its been designed properly, that will be obvious.
> or repair it".
There are always plenty who can.
> He adds: "Hiding the internal operation with an intuitive interface is
> compounded by the manufacturer's natural tendencies to protect their product from competitors and to increase sales by
> ensuring broken appliances have to be replaced, not repaired." This is achieved mainly through proprietary software.
And the nett result works fine for normal work, otherwise it wont sell.
> Mr Gelme argues that society's almost enforced predilection for discarding broken things is no longer acceptable,
> given our limited resources and the environmental repercussions.
Utterly mindless silly stuff. Only a terminal fuckwit hobbles
along on a 386SX running DOS today for those reasons.
Or even hobbles along with a T200 phone when a decent
cordless phone leaves it for dead convenience wise.
Or is stupid enough to try a long trip in a Morris Minor etc.
> Furthermore, he believes manufacturers should not "lock you out of your own possessions", preventing their repair or
> other interventions to fully utilise their potential.
You're always free to never buy any product done like that.
> Enter the hackers.
Nope.
> No, not malicious geeks who break into computer systems - "true" hackers refer to them as "crackers". The word's
> original meaning, which persists among the cognoscenti, is people "who hack together technologies and systems to build
> cool things",
> Con Zymaris says.
Stolen from someone else and you're so stupid you didnt even notice.
> "Hackers are the people that built the personal computer and the
> internet," says Mr Zymaris, whose company, Cybersource, assists
> businesses to migrate from proprietary software to open-source
> alternatives.
Only fools bother.
> "These are examples of users who produced benefits, spectacular,
> world-changing benefits, through gaining an understanding of the
> technologies at their disposal and extending them in new and
> interesting ways."
Fuck all have done anything like that.
> In recent years, hackers with diverse skills and interests, from
> electronics to performance art, have banded together to form
> "hackerspaces". By sharing knowledge, equipment and physical spaces,
> they can overcome the barriers of complexity in many products.
Waffle.
> Hackers show Pirsig's "old-fashioned gumption" in action and also demonstrate Romantic and Classical thinking in
> tandem
Nope.
> - new technology is the result of creativity and intuition, not just logic and reason.
New technology always was.
> Arguably, these two perspectives are increasingly coming together. As technology goes mainstream, creative people such
> as musicians and digital artists embrace it and good design becomes important to
> products' usability and appeal.
> The author of Click Here, Rich Evans, an internet development and online marketing consultant,
Wanker, actualy.
> says that when Zen was written, technology was "quite ugly".
Pig ignorant lie.
> Computers, for example, were "brown boxes" with "horrible, glowing green screens".
Wota fucking wanker...
> The internet, he says, was the first instance "in a very long time, of design and technology coming back together",
Pigs arse it was. The PC did that in spades.
> as its success is as much dependent on form as function.
Mindlessly silly.
> Evans points to "one school of thought that Apple's not a technology company; they're a design company".
You'll end up completely blind if you dont watch out.
> The success of offerings such as the iPod is due to the fact that "it's a nicely designed product that's easy to use",
> he says.
Must be one of those rocket scientist wankers.
> Of course, inventing the internet or designing the iPod is out of most people's league but a basic mastery of
> essential tools is possible. This may require consulting manuals (Pirsig wrote computer manuals and advocated their
> use and clear presentation).
And properly designed stuff doesnt need a manual, its intuitive to use.
> Increasingly, helpful online forums and wikis are other options, whatever "art of maintenance" is being attempted.
Wota fucking wanker...
> A co-founder of Melbourne HackerSpace, and an advocate of Pirsig's view that "the real cycle you're working on is a
> cycle called 'yourself"', Mr Gelme concludes that "being able to understand, repair and, best of all, customise
> technology to suit new purposes provides a better quality of life. It empowers people to innovate and helps them avoid
> feelings of powerlessness.
> "Everyone should insist on open standards for all infrastructure
Then there's the real world...
> and, whenever possible, open-source design and good documentation for all appliances, equipment and tools, so that we
> can repair and re-use them as much as possible."
Then there's the real world...
Iain Chalmers
> In recent years, hackers with diverse skills and interests, from electronics
> to
> performance art, have banded together to form "hackerspaces". By sharing
> knowledge, equipment and physical spaces, they can overcome the barriers of
> complexity in many products.
On the very slight off chance that anyone else read this far, was
interested in the idea of hackerspaces, and happens to be in Sydney...
http://robotsanddinosaurs.org
http://hackerspace.pbworks.com/
big
--
As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top. And
you'll need the cocaine. Tape recorder for special music. Acapulco shirts.
Get the hell out of L.A. for at least 48 hours. Blows my weekend.
theo
> > In recent years, hackers with diverse skills and interests, from electronics
> > to
> > performance art, have banded together to form "hackerspaces". By sharing
> > knowledge, equipment and physical spaces, they can overcome the barriers of
> > complexity in many products.
>
> On the very slight off chance that anyone else read this far,
I did, and I'm sorry. Pirsig should never have been released from the
asylum, but I suppose he had to make room for Miss Maunder who
obviously hasn't read Pirsig's book.
Theo
Diogenes
<theo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
> Pirsig should never have been released from the asylum...
Can you explain why you say that, Theo? (I presume that any reply
will be referenced back to ZATAOMM.)
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
theo
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:57:29 -0800 (PST), theo
>
> > Pirsig should never have been released from the asylum...
>
> Can you explain why you say that, Theo? (I presume that any reply
> will be referenced back to ZATAOMM.)
What do you want? Page number references where he says he was/is
totally mentally unstable? IMHO, having read the book twice, once on
release and again a couple of years ago, the man had a mental
breakdown and rambled on about it in a book which had nothing to do
with motorcycles or, in my limited understanding of the subject, Zen.
His 'trip' was escapism from his own mind and from the portion of the
world he had previously lived in.
Just because it has the word Motorcycle in the title and was lauded by
self-appraised critics who have probably never even sat on a bicycle
doesn't mean I, or anybody else, can't see the book for the drivel it
really was. But hey, that's just my opinion, he may be the guru on the
rusty 250 Honda you were searching for.
Theo
Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF
> Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF" <""noujwas\"@yahoo.com . wrote
>
>> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/down-to-the-nuts-and-bolts-20091104-hwfq.html
>
>> Knowing technology well enough to be able to repair it is a lost art,
>> writes Patricia Maunder.
>
> Yes, it makes more sense to replace most of it than to repair it.
That would put a lot of panelbeaters out of business for a start.
>> 'WE NEED a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and
>> old-fashioned gumption," wrote Robert Pirsig in 1974's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. This seminal book is
>> ostensibly about a motorcycle road trip but the narrative is primarily a framework for his philosophical reflections,
>> centering on the view that modern "man is separated from what he does".
>
>> Pirsig's prime example is the road-tripper who intentionally remained ignorant of how to maintain or repair his
>> motorcycle, then became angry if it broke down.
>
> And then the world moved on with PCs most obviously.
PCs have always been too complicated for the average, untrained person to repair.
>> When Zen was published, society had, according to its author, become divided into Romantics (creative people "living
>> in the moment") and Classicists (practical, logical types).
>
> That had happened a hell of a long time before that.
Yes, and the two groups are known by different names today. Beauty and geek
being one of many.
>> He argued that quality of life could only be achieved by straddling these attitudes: Classicists should embrace
>> "irrational" notions such as intuition and Romantics meaningfully engage with the technology they use.
>
> Hordes of them arent capable of doing either.
True.
>> How relevant are Pirsig's views 35 years on?
>
> Not very.
I suspect you'll find they are just as relevant now as then.
>> Because of the "sheer technical sophistication of modern sports
>> bikes, along with the need for specialist diagnostic equipment ... I don't service my motorbike any more", says Andy
>> Gelme, a motorcyclist of 25 years and a fan of Pirsig.
>
> And hordes arent stupid enough to bother with a motorbike at all.
But some are.
>> A distributed systems engineer, Mr Gelme adds that many common
>> devices, from computers to mobiles, "are too complex for any one
>> person to completely understand, from the base hardware to the
>> complete stack of software". However, that doesn't mean we should
>> throw up our hands in despair or wash them of personal responsibility.
>
>> Arguably, there is still a need for "old-fashioned gumption" - a need to retain some mastery over tools we rely on and
>> to explore others' potential.
>
> There is no need when they are so trivially replaceable for
> peanuts and the technology keeps moving on so dramatically.
That depends. A motorbike engine isn't replaceable for peanuts and you probably
can't replace it with a new model without replacing more of the bike.
> Its different with technology like cutlery that has stopped advancing
> much, but then it doesnt need any real maintenance except being
> tossed in the dishwasher when its been used etc.
So what's wrong with washing it by hand?
>> Mr Gelme still performs basic checks on aspects of his bike not
>> dependent on specialised knowledge or equipment, such as tyres and fluids - "as should every bike rider, for their own
>> safety and ease of mind", he says. This "ease of mind" goes deep, even more so in this technological age than for
>> Pirsig's Luddite motorcyclist, whose frustration resulted from feeling powerless.
>
> And you dont need to bother with a decently designed laptop.
>
>> Training people re-entering the workforce
>
> Its only the dregs that need any 'training'
>
>> has shown Veechi Curtis how "technology can either be empowering or an impediment, depending on their attitude to it",
>> she says.
>
> Must be one of those rocket scientist stupids.
>
>> An author of numerous books about small business and accounting software, including Dummies guides,
>
> Hardly anyone bothers with shit like that anymore.
Dummies do.
>> Curtis says that when technology becomes a barrier, "it can be very disempowering because people aren't really
>> understanding what's going on in their business".
>
> Waffle.
>
>> Of course, the most common tools in our business and personal lives have user-friendly interfaces, enabling the least
>> tech-savvy to use them. An unfortunate side-effect of this, Mr Gelme says, is that "general users of technology have
>> no idea about how an appliance really works,
>
> They dont need to. Just like they dont need to know how
> an internal combustion engine works for a car to be useful.
But they do need to know basic maintenance like adding petrol, oil, air,
checking tyres, brakes, etc.
>> which means they may not know how to use it most effectively
>
> If its been designed properly, that will be obvious.
Like Windows Vista?
>> or repair it".
>
> There are always plenty who can.
>
>> He adds: "Hiding the internal operation with an intuitive interface is
>> compounded by the manufacturer's natural tendencies to protect their product from competitors and to increase sales by
>> ensuring broken appliances have to be replaced, not repaired." This is achieved mainly through proprietary software.
>
> And the nett result works fine for normal work, otherwise it wont sell.
>
>> Mr Gelme argues that society's almost enforced predilection for discarding broken things is no longer acceptable,
>> given our limited resources and the environmental repercussions.
>
> Utterly mindless silly stuff. Only a terminal fuckwit hobbles
> along on a 386SX running DOS today for those reasons.
But if it gets the job done? An old bike still gets you from A to B.
> Or even hobbles along with a T200 phone when a decent
> cordless phone leaves it for dead convenience wise.
Does that include all the noise and interference?
> Or is stupid enough to try a long trip in a Morris Minor etc.
Why not?
>> Furthermore, he believes manufacturers should not "lock you out of your own possessions", preventing their repair or
>> other interventions to fully utilise their potential.
>
> You're always free to never buy any product done like that.
>
>> Enter the hackers.
>
> Nope.
>
>> No, not malicious geeks who break into computer systems - "true" hackers refer to them as "crackers". The word's
>> original meaning, which persists among the cognoscenti, is people "who hack together technologies and systems to build
>> cool things", Con Zymaris says.
>
> Stolen from someone else and you're so stupid you didnt even notice.
Who are you addressing?
You seem to have an issue with wanking.
Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF
> On Nov 6, 10:44 am, Diogenes <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:57:29 -0800 (PST), theo
>>
>> <theodo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>>> Pirsig should never have been released from the asylum...
>> Can you explain why you say that, Theo? (I presume that any reply
>> will be referenced back to ZATAOMM.)
>
> What do you want? Page number references where he says he was/is
> totally mentally unstable?
He wasn't totally mentally unstable. He had a breakdown due to concentrating on
a philosophical problem for too long.
> IMHO, having read the book twice, once on
> release and again a couple of years ago, the man had a mental
> breakdown and rambled on about it in a book which had nothing to do
> with motorcycles or, in my limited understanding of the subject, Zen.
> His 'trip' was escapism from his own mind and from the portion of the
> world he had previously lived in.
The book was actually his examination of some aspects of the philosophical
problem he was delving into. That would become clearer if you've read his second
book "Lila: An Enquire Into Morals".
> Just because it has the word Motorcycle in the title and was lauded by
> self-appraised critics who have probably never even sat on a bicycle
> doesn't mean I, or anybody else, can't see the book for the drivel it
> really was. But hey, that's just my opinion, he may be the guru on the
> rusty 250 Honda you were searching for.
--
Diogenes
<theo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>On Nov 6, 10:44�am, Diogenes <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:57:29 -0800 (PST), theo
>>
>> <theodo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>> > Pirsig should never have been released from the asylum...
>>
>> Can you explain why you say that, Theo? �(I presume that any reply
>> will be referenced back to ZATAOMM.)
>
>What do you want? Page number references where he says he was/is
>totally mentally unstable?
Yes, I s'pose it _was_ a silly question. I guess what I meant was
that just because one has a certain opinion about the strangeness of
Pirsig, this should not translate into a desire to see him locked up
for life. Perhaps I took you too literally.
>IMHO, having read the book twice, once on
>release and again a couple of years ago, the man had a mental
>breakdown and rambled on about it in a book which had nothing to do
>with motorcycles or, in my limited understanding of the subject, Zen.
Well, I had a different take on the book. I found the way he relates
to his motorcycle interesting and as valid as anyone else's.
And I found lots of his thinking to be quite compatible with zen
thought.
I also found his philosophical musings interesting.
There seems to be a Dutch/German cultural legacy which would encourage
people to lock up anyone who does not see the world in the same way as
they do. I think it's time this trait was made redundant or at least
exposed for what it is - arrogantly dictatorial.
>His 'trip' was escapism from his own mind and from the portion of the
>world he had previously lived in.
Your opinion is noted, but not necessarily given the same weight as
anything resembling an absolute truth.
>Just because it has the word Motorcycle in the title and was lauded by
>self-appraised critics who have probably never even sat on a bicycle
>doesn't mean I, or anybody else, can't see the book for the drivel it
>really was.
Well, Theo, that piece of fallacious reasoning nicely invalidates and
dismisses anyone who disagrees with your appraisal of the book.
How very Dutch of you...
See, Theo, the thing that gets me is that it's not just your opinion,
it's that you are so arrgantly conviced of the absolute truth of your
opinion that you feel the need to invaidate and deride anyone who
differs with you.
And you wonder why I take great delight in parody-ing this type of
mindset in this newsgroup?
>But hey, that's just my opinion, he may be the guru on the
>rusty 250 Honda you were searching for.
He was on a Beemer, and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
anyway. As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. How very Dutch
of you.
Thanks for your time.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Andrew
>
> He was on a Beemer, and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
> anyway. As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
> dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. How very Dutch of
> you.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> =================
>
> Onya bike
>
> Gerry
I don't think you're right about the bike, Gerry - I've always understood
he was on a Honda CB350. It was his friends (John(?) and Sylvia(?)) who
were on the Beemer.
That aside, while I disagree with almost everything Theo has to say about
the book, I read it a few times soon after it was published, but when I
tried to re-read it a couple of years ago, I couldn't - stylistically at
least, it hasn't aged well at all. So I got rid of our copy, which is why
I can't refresh my memory on his friend's names.
--
Regards
Andrew
Fulliautomatix
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF" <""noujwas\"@yahoo.com . wrote
>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/down-to-the-nuts-and-bolts-20091104-hwfq.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Knowing technology well enough to be able to repair it is a lost art,
>>> writes Patricia Maunder.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it makes more sense to replace most of it than to repair it.
>
>
> That would put a lot of panelbeaters out of business for a start.
Since when does a panel beater do other than replace it???
You might pull the floorpan straight but any damaged panels / parts are
replaced with aftermarket or recycled or new as a last resort.
Oh sure there are the 1% who build rods and stuff but the remaining 99%
are doing high volume insurance work
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF" <""noujwas\"@yahoo.com . wrote
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/down-to-the-nuts-and-bolts-20091104-hwfq.html
>>> Knowing technology well enough to be able to repair it is a lost art, writes Patricia Maunder.
>> Yes, it makes more sense to replace most of it than to repair it.
> That would put a lot of panelbeaters out of business for a start.
Nope, thats just part of the non most.
>>> 'WE NEED a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and
>>> old-fashioned gumption," wrote Robert Pirsig in 1974's Zen and the
>>> Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. This seminal book is ostensibly
>>> about a motorcycle road trip but the narrative is primarily a
>>> framework for his philosophical reflections, centering on the view
>>> that modern "man is separated from what he does".
>>> Pirsig's prime example is the road-tripper who intentionally
>>> remained ignorant of how to maintain or repair his motorcycle, then
>>> became angry if it broke down.
>> And then the world moved on with PCs most obviously.
> PCs have always been too complicated for the average, untrained person to repair.
Yes, but so have motorbikes, and it aint about training either.
>>> When Zen was published, society had, according to its author,
>>> become divided into Romantics (creative people "living in the
>>> moment") and Classicists (practical, logical types).
>> That had happened a hell of a long time before that.
> Yes, and the two groups are known by different names today. Beauty and geek being one of many.
Its much more complicated than that binary stuff.
>>> He argued that quality of life could only be achieved by straddling
>>> these attitudes: Classicists should embrace "irrational" notions
>>> such as intuition and Romantics meaningfully engage with the
>>> technology they use.
>> Hordes of them arent capable of doing either.
> True.
>>> How relevant are Pirsig's views 35 years on?
>> Not very.
> I suspect you'll find they are just as relevant now as then.
Nope, significantly less so now.
Certainly PC repair has been added to motorbike and car repair,
but PCs dont fail that often and repair is pretty easy to do.
>>> Because of the "sheer technical sophistication of modern sports
>>> bikes, along with the need for specialist diagnostic equipment ...
>>> I don't service my motorbike any more", says Andy Gelme, a
>>> motorcyclist of 25 years and a fan of Pirsig.
>> And hordes arent stupid enough to bother with a motorbike at all.
> But some are.
Sure. And certainly a lot more are stupid enough to ride push bikes now.
Not much rocket science needed for them tho.
Presumably quite a few do their jet skis etc and other
stuff like chainsaws and whipper snippers now too.
>>> A distributed systems engineer, Mr Gelme adds that many common
>>> devices, from computers to mobiles, "are too complex for any one
>>> person to completely understand, from the base hardware to the
>>> complete stack of software". However, that doesn't mean we should
>>> throw up our hands in despair or wash them of personal responsibility.
>>> Arguably, there is still a need for "old-fashioned gumption" - a need to retain some mastery over tools we rely on
>>> and to explore others' potential.
>> There is no need when they are so trivially replaceable for
>> peanuts and the technology keeps moving on so dramatically.
> That depends. A motorbike engine isn't replaceable for peanuts
Thats not a tool we rely on, thats a toy.
> and you probably can't replace it with a new model without replacing more of the bike.
True, but most dont do that sort of work, and most never did.
>> Its different with technology like cutlery that has stopped advancing
>> much, but then it doesnt need any real maintenance except being
>> tossed in the dishwasher when its been used etc.
> So what's wrong with washing it by hand?
Too much farting around. I dont wash the clothes by hand either.
>>> Mr Gelme still performs basic checks on aspects of his bike not
>>> dependent on specialised knowledge or equipment, such as tyres and fluids - "as should every bike rider, for their
>>> own safety and ease of mind", he says. This "ease of mind" goes deep, even more so in this technological age than
>>> for Pirsig's Luddite motorcyclist, whose frustration resulted from feeling powerless.
>> And you dont need to bother with a decently designed laptop.
>>> Training people re-entering the workforce
>> Its only the dregs that need any 'training'
>>> has shown Veechi Curtis how "technology can either be empowering or an impediment, depending on their attitude to
>>> it", she says.
>> Must be one of those rocket scientist stupids.
>>> An author of numerous books about small business and accounting software, including Dummies guides,
>> Hardly anyone bothers with shit like that anymore.
> Dummies do.
Sure, a few do.
>>> Curtis says that when technology becomes a barrier, "it can be very
>>> disempowering because people aren't really understanding what's
>>> going on in their business".
>> Waffle.
>>> Of course, the most common tools in our business and personal lives
>>> have user-friendly interfaces, enabling the least tech-savvy to use
>>> them. An unfortunate side-effect of this, Mr Gelme says, is that
>>> "general users of technology have no idea about how an appliance
>>> really works,
>> They dont need to. Just like they dont need to know how
>> an internal combustion engine works for a car to be useful.
> But they do need to know basic maintenance like adding petrol, oil, air, checking tyres, brakes, etc.
Thats not maintenance and most dont do anything
more than petrol and the washer fill up.
>>> which means they may not know how to use it most effectively
>> If its been designed properly, that will be obvious.
> Like Windows Vista?
Yes, its obvious enough to all but fools, specially stuff
like the popup when you plug in a USB stick or card etc.
>>> or repair it".
>> There are always plenty who can.
>>> He adds: "Hiding the internal operation with an intuitive interface is compounded by the manufacturer's natural
>>> tendencies to protect
>>> their product from competitors and to increase sales by ensuring
>>> broken appliances have to be replaced, not repaired." This is
>>> achieved mainly through proprietary software.
>> And the nett result works fine for normal work, otherwise it wont sell.
>>> Mr Gelme argues that society's almost enforced predilection for
>>> discarding broken things is no longer acceptable, given our limited
>>> resources and the environmental repercussions.
>> Utterly mindless silly stuff. Only a terminal fuckwit hobbles
>> along on a 386SX running DOS today for those reasons.
> But if it gets the job done?
It doesnt on the fucked UI alone.
> An old bike still gets you from A to B.
PCs advance a hell of a lot faster than pushbikes.
>> Or even hobbles along with a T200 phone when a decent
>> cordless phone leaves it for dead convenience wise.
> Does that include all the noise and interference?
No noise or interference on mine.
>> Or is stupid enough to try a long trip in a Morris Minor etc.
> Why not?
Too much farting around with a fucked body anyway.
I'd do it with a beetle, and have done too, but not with a Morris Minor etc.
>>> Furthermore, he believes manufacturers should not "lock you out of your own possessions", preventing their repair or
>>> other interventions to fully utilise their potential.
>> You're always free to never buy any product done like that.
>>> Enter the hackers.
>> Nope.
>>> No, not malicious geeks who break into computer systems - "true"
>>> hackers refer to them as "crackers". The word's original meaning,
>>> which persists among the cognoscenti, is people "who hack together
>>> technologies and systems to build cool things", Con Zymaris says.
>> Stolen from someone else and you're so stupid you didnt even notice.
> Who are you addressing?
That fool Zymaris.
>> Only fools bother.
>> Waffle.
>> Nope.
>> New technology always was.
>> Wanker, actualy.
>> Pig ignorant lie.
>> Wota fucking wanker...
>> Mindlessly silly.
>> Wota fucking wanker...
So many wankers about, like those wankers.
theo
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:51:43 -0800 (PST), theo
> >What do you want? Page number references where he says he was/is
> >totally mentally unstable?
>
> Yes, I s'pose it _was_ a silly question. I guess what I meant was
> that just because one has a certain opinion about the strangeness of
> Pirsig, this should not translate into a desire to see him locked up
> for life. Perhaps I took you too literally.
You certainly did. I would never want to see anyone locked up for
life. In the case of Pirsig I feel that because he was part of the
inteligensia and because of the stigma atached to mental illness and
breakdown he was allowed to go out and "heal himself" with solitude
rather than be given the help he appeared, to me, to desperately need.
On a couple of occassions he stopped in the shade of a tree for a
whole day. That may seem very Zen but he just didn't know what to do
next.
> There seems to be a Dutch/German cultural legacy which would encourage
> people to lock up anyone who does not see the world in the same way as
> they do. I think it's time this trait was made redundant or at least
> exposed for what it is - arrogantly dictatorial.
Are you serious or just being racist. The Dutch had one of the first
European governments to have a parliament.
> >His 'trip' was escapism from his own mind and from the portion of the
> >world he had previously lived in.
>
> Your opinion is noted, but not necessarily given the same weight as
> anything resembling an absolute truth.
Of course not, your impressions are obviously different. That doesn't
necessarily make mine invalid, or your's incorrect.
> >Just because it has the word Motorcycle in the title and was lauded by
> >self-appraised critics who have probably never even sat on a bicycle
> >doesn't mean I, or anybody else, can't see the book for the drivel it
> >really was.
>
> Well, Theo, that piece of fallacious reasoning nicely invalidates and
> dismisses anyone who disagrees with your appraisal of the book.
> How very Dutch of you...
> See, Theo, the thing that gets me is that it's not just your opinion,
> it's that you are so arrgantly conviced of the absolute truth of your
> opinion that you feel the need to invaidate and deride anyone who
> differs with you.
Geez you're a tight-arsed wanker Gerry. Unpucker those cheeks.
> And you wonder why I take great delight in parody-ing this type of
> mindset in this newsgroup?
ROTFL.
> >But hey, that's just my opinion, he may be the guru on the
> >rusty 250 Honda you were searching for.
>
> He was on a Beemer,
I thought you said you read the book several times? It was a small
Honda, as evidenced by several occassions where he was forced to stop
because of headwinds causing the bike to overheat.
> He wasn't and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
> anyway. As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
> dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. How very Dutch
> of you.
How very racist of you.
On ya bike....
Theo
Diogenes
<amckNOS...@telNOSPAMstra.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:33:21 +1100, Diogenes wrote:
>> He was on a Beemer, and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
>> anyway. As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
>> dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. How very Dutch of
>> you.
>>
>> Thanks for your time.
>I don't think you're right about the bike, Gerry - I've always understood
>he was on a Honda CB350. It was his friends (John(?) and Sylvia(?)) who
>were on the Beemer.
Ahhh... You're right. (You made me get the book off the shelf) The
Beemer was his friend's bike. It was an R60.
And Pirsig's bike was a Honda 305cc according to
http://www.honda305.com/frames/zen-hld1.htm
>That aside, while I disagree with almost everything Theo has to say about
>the book, I read it a few times soon after it was published, but when I
>tried to re-read it a couple of years ago, I couldn't - stylistically at
>least, it hasn't aged well at all. So I got rid of our copy, which is why
>I can't refresh my memory on his friend's names.
The Beemer owner's name is John Sutherland. His wife's name is
Sylvia.
People who want to slam the book ought to at least read the Wikipedia
article abou the book because it may explain a few things for them
_before_ they air their ignorance and thus they may do a better
quality critique.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Lars Chance
> I don't think you're right about the bike, Gerry - I've always understood
> he was on a Honda CB350. It was his friends (John(?) and Sylvia(?)) who
> were on the Beemer.
>
I found the book to be mostly loony blathering when I read it the single
time about a quarter century ago but yes; the friend had the BMW. (And
it was said friend and said BMW that were generally the butt of the
analogies)
--
Elsie.
Diogenes
<theo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>On Nov 6, 1:33�pm, Diogenes <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:51:43 -0800 (PST), theo
>> >What do you want? Page number references where he says he was/is
>> >totally mentally unstable?
>> Yes, I s'pose it _was_ a silly question. �I guess what I meant was
>> that just because one has a certain opinion about the strangeness of
>> Pirsig, this should not translate into a desire to see him locked up
>> for life. �Perhaps I took you too literally.
>You certainly did. I would never want to see anyone locked up for
>life.
OK, so what did you mean by "Pirsig should never have been released
from the asylum..."
> In the case of Pirsig I feel that because he was part of the
>inteligensia and because of the stigma atached to mental illness and
>breakdown he was allowed to go out and "heal himself" with solitude
>rather than be given the help he appeared, to me, to desperately need.
>On a couple of occassions he stopped in the shade of a tree for a
>whole day. That may seem very Zen but he just didn't know what to do
>next.
Are you saying he should have been kept in and doped up on
"medications"? Back then they loved administering tricyclics a crude
form of ECT? Do you know what these do to people's mental and
neurological processes?
>> There seems to be a Dutch/German cultural legacy which would encourage
>> people to lock up anyone who does not see the world in the same way as
>> they do. �I think it's time this trait was made redundant or at least
>> exposed for what it is - arrogantly dictatorial.
>Are you serious or just being racist?
It's an observation. Make of it what you will.
>The Dutch had one of the first European governments to have a parliament.
So? I was talking about observable traits in the Dutch and German
cultures. Where does it say that such people might not form an
assembly the call a "parliament"?
>> >His 'trip' was escapism from his own mind and from the portion of the
>> >world he had previously lived in.
>>
>> Your opinion is noted, but not necessarily given the same weight as
>> anything resembling an absolute truth.
>
>Of course not, your impressions are obviously different. That doesn't
>necessarily make mine invalid, or your's incorrect.
I'm glad to hear that.
>> >Just because it has the word Motorcycle in the title and was lauded by
>> >self-appraised critics who have probably never even sat on a bicycle
>> >doesn't mean I, or anybody else, can't see the book for the drivel it
>> >really was.
>>
>> Well, Theo, that piece of fallacious reasoning nicely invalidates and
>> dismisses anyone who disagrees with your appraisal of the book.
>> How very Dutch of you...
>
>> See, Theo, the thing that gets me is that it's not just your opinion,
>> it's that you are so arrgantly conviced of the absolute truth of your
>> opinion that you feel the need to invaidate and deride anyone who
>> differs with you. �
>Geez you're a tight-arsed wanker Gerry. Unpucker those cheeks.
There you go again.
>> And you wonder why I take great delight in parody-ing this type of
>> mindset in this newsgroup?
>
>ROTFL.
>> >But hey, that's just my opinion, he may be the guru on the
>> >rusty 250 Honda you were searching for.
>>
>> He was on a Beemer,
>
>I thought you said you read the book several times? It was a small
>Honda, as evidenced by several occassions where he was forced to stop
>because of headwinds causing the bike to overheat.
Since my mental crack-up in 1997 my memory gets a bit funny on
occasions. I got mixed up about which bike was whose. It's been a
long time since I've read the book. As with movies, I often forget
most of the story's details soon after. But a general impression
about its quality stays with me. Hence I know whether I thought a
story was great or awful. I thought ZATAOMM was brilliant.
Apparently, according to some Dutchmen this makes me of dubious
character. Fuck you.
>> He wasn't and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
>> anyway. �As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
>> dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. � How very Dutch
>> of you.
>How very racist of you.
Yes, innit? ;-) Don't you just love it when you're on the
receiving end of stereotyping for a change? Happy-making, innit?
Go kill yourself.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Diogenes
I just love it when those who do not understand what they are reading
feel the need to dismiss the material as "loony blathering". They
say that's the function of a rampant ego doing its "thang".
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
bikerbetty
"Diogenes" <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote in message
news:uko7f5h86sbgr3a4h...@4ax.com...
I don't want to buy into the above conversation - but I do want to mention
the book. I read it many many years ago and didn't get it, I suspect. I
didn't enjoy it, at least, but I can't actually remember why. (It was a long
time ago and I was very young).
I tried again, more recently, seeing as it's supposedly a bit of an iconic
read for motorcyclists - and couldn't even get a quarter of the way
through - and this time I know why. I found the style of the narrative so
alienating for some reason that I simply couldn't engage with it, and
therefore couldn't keep going with it. I felt as if the story was pushing
me away, and I gave up the fight. I must admit, now I no longer have to
read/teach for a living, I don't persevere with things that don't engage
me - life's too short to read stuff I don't enjoy - but perhaps one day I'll
be in the right frame of mind to attempt ZATAOMM again. After reading the
comments from Theo and Gerry above, perhaps I need to have a fresh look at
it...
betty
Zebee Johnstone
bikerbetty <bikerbettyatgmaildotcom> wrote:
>
> I tried again, more recently, seeing as it's supposedly a bit of an iconic
> read for motorcyclists - and couldn't even get a quarter of the way
I dunno about that.
It is mentioned a lot by people who don't ride bikes, presumably
because it has motorcycle in the title and so they hope they have
found common ground.
Dunno too many riders who think it worthwhile.
> through - and this time I know why. I found the style of the narrative so
> alienating for some reason that I simply couldn't engage with it, and
> therefore couldn't keep going with it. I felt as if the story was pushing
Yeah. I can't remember much about it, I vaguely recall thinking both
"no shit Sherlock" and "stop whining and do something vaguely
interesting dammit" and I can't even recall if I finished it.
I was just getting into bikes and thought it had something to do with
them, but it didn't. I went back to trying to understand Haynes.
But then some people liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant so there
is a market for books about whiny incompetent blowhards.
Zebee
bikerbetty
Hammo
On 6/11/09 1:51 PM, in article
2af9fdf0-2c5e-40af...@b36g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "theo"
<theo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
references in it.
Hammo
Diogenes
>You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
>references in it.
His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Diogenes
<bikerbettyatgmaildotcom> wrote:
>I don't want to buy into the above conversation - but I do want to mention
>the book. I read it many many years ago and didn't get it, I suspect. I
>didn't enjoy it, at least, but I can't actually remember why. (It was a long
>time ago and I was very young).
If everyone liked every book we'd be on Planet Woopwoop.
>I tried again, more recently, seeing as it's supposedly a bit of an iconic
>read for motorcyclists - and couldn't even get a quarter of the way
>through - and this time I know why. I found the style of the narrative so
>alienating for some reason that I simply couldn't engage with it, and
>therefore couldn't keep going with it. I felt as if the story was pushing
>me away, and I gave up the fight. I must admit, now I no longer have to
>read/teach for a living, I don't persevere with things that don't engage
>me - life's too short to read stuff I don't enjoy...
I notice that you're languaging your response to the book from the
point of view that the book is responsible for your reactions to it.
i.e. that the book is "doing it to you", it is "making you" respond a
certain way, it is responsible for your reactions? That's a
victim-mentality mindset, I would argue. Have you ever considered
that your reactions are a result of _your_ stuff - i.e. your values,
your judgements, your expectations, your beliefs, etc., etc., etc.
i.e. the book is not making you feel that way, your stuff is making
you feel that way. A radical concept, I know. :-( Never mind,
I've lost the plot, you know...
> ...but perhaps one day I'll be in the right frame of mind to attempt
>ZATAOMM again. After reading the comments from Theo and Gerry
>above, perhaps I need to have a fresh look at it...
Nah. You may never like it. And that's OK too. It's way too
philosophical and "esoteric" for most people. And it is eminently
easy to disagree with much of it. It is a polarising book, i.e.
one's reactions to it tend to be either extremely for or extremely
against.
I wouldn't argue though that those who are for it are right and those
who are against it are wrong, or vice versa. I think it's a form of
literary snobbery to pull a book to pieces (or praise it). But
there's a lot of that going on these days. Like everyone is lecturer
in literature. What a wank. Pompousness is the new black.
You either like it or you don't. You either "get" it or you don't.
(generic "you")
Here endeth the rant... ;-)
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
bikerbetty
"Diogenes" <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote in message
Nah, what I'm talking about really and truly is the Reader Response school
of Literary Criticism (undoubtedly an unfashionable school in these days of
Post-Marxist-Post-Feminist-Postmodern Criticism, but anyway...) I still
reckon a reader's response to a text is a perfectly valid response, and all
those things you mentioned - values, judgements, etc, come into it. I felt
totally alienated by the narrative voice, and, had I been a student of
literature at the time, I would've slogged through it and dissected it and
annotated all the points of alienation.... the tone, particular scenes, the
characters etc etc - but as a common-or-garden reader, I just said "erk, I
can't be bothered with this"
>> ...but perhaps one day I'll be in the right frame of mind to attempt
>>ZATAOMM again. After reading the comments from Theo and Gerry
>>above, perhaps I need to have a fresh look at it...
>
> Nah. You may never like it. And that's OK too. It's way too
> philosophical and "esoteric" for most people. And it is eminently
> easy to disagree with much of it. It is a polarising book, i.e.
> one's reactions to it tend to be either extremely for or extremely
> against.
>
> I wouldn't argue though that those who are for it are right and those
> who are against it are wrong, or vice versa. I think it's a form of
> literary snobbery to pull a book to pieces (or praise it). But
> there's a lot of that going on these days. Like everyone is lecturer
> in literature. What a wank. Pompousness is the new black.
>
> You either like it or you don't. You either "get" it or you don't.
> (generic "you")
>
> Here endeth the rant... ;-)
>
> =================
>
> Onya bike
>
> Gerry
I still love you Gerry ;-) And I still intend to have another go at ZATAOMM
one day.... Just not yet....
betty
Nev..
I wouldn't bother Betty. Gerry is the only person I have ever heard who
had anything good to say about that book. Everyone else says it's shit.
That doesn't mean you have to have the same opinion just because
they do, but there's probably a lot of truth in it, particularly
demonstrated by the fact that it is contrary to Gerry's opinion. Never
read that book, or even contemplated reading it myself.
Nev..
'08 DL1000K8
F Murtz
I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
Andrew
Thanks for the link, very interesting. Pirsig's bike was a Honda
Superhawk CB77, 1964 model. I was wrong.
People who have never read (or people who have read and misunderstood)
the book could benefit from reading this:
http://honda305.com/pirsig/index.htm
and click on the 'Literary Analysis' link.
Particularly this bit:
" ... this is NOT a book about motorcycles and the discussion of it
belongs on some literary part of the Internet. If you feel inclined to
read more about philosophy - this is a good beginner’s book. If you want
to read about motorcycle maintenance, look elsewhere. ... "
--
Regards
Andrew
Toosmoky
> People who want to slam the book ought to at least read the Wikipedia
> article abou the book because it may explain a few things for them
> _before_ they air their ignorance and thus they may do a better
> quality critique.
When I finally buy another HD to park next to my Triumph I will find my
inner peace...
Yeah, verily, though I happily and willingly delve into the bowels of a
simple Harley, I do likewise for the infinite complexity of electronicry
on a British EFI bike.
I can sit and stare at both, taking in the beauty of the lines for
hours. The Trump, the best of British design, like an E-type Jag or a
Spitfire. The Harley, Pavarotti, Peterbilt, P-47 Thunderbolt. Heavy.
Basic. Effective. Made to go the distance.
And at 130ks* on either, when I have the time to go somewhere far away,
I leave the bonds of responsibility to others behind and I find Nirvana.
Man, my haaands are HUGE!...
*(Subject to regional variation.)
--
Toosmoky
Work to ride, Ride to Work...
http://users.tpg.com.au/smokey61/cafe
Toosmoky
> I still love you Gerry ;-) And I still intend to have another go at ZATAOMM
> one day.... Just not yet....
It's a book on philosophy. If you don't find it interesting you won't
read it.
Kind of like computer manuals...
G-S
>
> But then some people liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant so there
> is a market for books about whiny incompetent blowhards.
>
> Zebee
I read all of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant twice (I needed twice to
properly 'get' parts of it).
I can't say I actually 'enjoyed' it but it did capture my attention.
It was sort of like watching a train and knowing it was about to crash
because the bridge was out in front of it, but you just can't look away :)
G-S
Iain Chalmers
> People who want to slam the book ought to at least read the Wikipedia
> article abou the book because it may explain a few things for them
> _before_ they air their ignorance and thus they may do a better
> quality critique.
Just like you, eh Gerry?
Gerry wrote:
>Theo wrote:
>>Gerry wrote:
>>> He was on a Beemer,
>>
>>I thought you said you read the book several times? It was a small
>>Honda, as evidenced by several occassions where he was forced to stop
>>because of headwinds causing the bike to overheat.
>
>Since my mental crack-up in 1997 my memory gets a bit funny on
>occasions. I got mixed up about which bike was whose.
;-)
big (something about pots and kettles and accusation of hue...)
--
As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top. And
you'll need the cocaine. Tape recorder for special music. Acapulco shirts.
Get the hell out of L.A. for at least 48 hours. Blows my weekend.
theo
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:30:55 -0800 (PST), theo
> Since my mental crack-up in 1997 my memory gets a bit funny on
> occasions. I got mixed up about which bike was whose. It's been a
> long time since I've read the book. As with movies, I often forget
> most of the story's details soon after. But a general impression
> about its quality stays with me. Hence I know whether I thought a
> story was great or awful. I thought ZATAOMM was brilliant.
> Apparently, according to some Dutchmen this makes me of dubious
> character. Fuck you.
You were always a dubious character Gerry.
Your opinion is valid. My opinion of the book is different but also
valid. Perception is reality.
> >How very racist of you.
>
> Yes, innit? ;-) Don't you just love it when you're on the
> receiving end of stereotyping for a change? Happy-making, innit?
Oops, did I touch a little nerve somewhere or do you just hate
everybody who disagrees with your opinion/perception/reality?
Theo
theo
> But then some people liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant so there
> is a market for books about whiny incompetent blowhards.
Hehehe. I read Thomas C many years ago (early eighties). I was
literally waiting for him to finish writing each volume, and am now
reading the new series.
Try Tad Williams.
Theo
JL
> But then some people liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant so there
> is a market for books about whiny incompetent blowhards.
Now THERE is a successful series that beggars comprehension. Masochism
perhaps ?
JL
Diogenes
Yep, the reader's response is valid. My only argument is that when
the reade bales the book for their resomse to it, they are missing the
causality bus entirely.
> I felt totally alienated by the narrative voice, and, had I been a student of
>literature at the time, I would've slogged through it and dissected it and
>annotated all the points of alienation.... the tone, particular scenes, the
>characters etc etc - but as a common-or-garden reader, I just said "erk, I
>can't be bothered with this"
Fine. That's your resonse. Own it.
Saying (or implying) that the book caused it is a crock (IMNSHO).
It's also a form of absolutism and what I would call literary fascism.
>>> ...but perhaps one day I'll be in the right frame of mind to attempt
>>>ZATAOMM again. After reading the comments from Theo and Gerry
>>>above, perhaps I need to have a fresh look at it...
>> Nah. You may never like it. And that's OK too. It's way too
>> philosophical and "esoteric" for most people. And it is eminently
>> easy to disagree with much of it. It is a polarising book, i.e.
>> one's reactions to it tend to be either extremely for or extremely
>> against.
>> I wouldn't argue though that those who are for it are right and those
>> who are against it are wrong, or vice versa. I think it's a form of
>> literary snobbery to pull a book to pieces (or praise it). But
>> there's a lot of that going on these days. Like everyone is lecturer
>> in literature. What a wank. Pompousness is the new black.
>>
>> You either like it or you don't. You either "get" it or you don't.
>> (generic "you")
>>
>> Here endeth the rant... ;-)
>I still love you Gerry ;-) And I still intend to have another go at ZATAOMM
>one day.... Just not yet....
Ahhh... Postponed masochism... Interesting. :-)
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Diogenes
<theo...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>On Nov 6, 5:14�pm, Diogenes <cy...@society.sux.ok> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:30:55 -0800 (PST), theo
>
>> Since my mental crack-up in 1997 �my memory gets a bit funny on
>> occasions. �I got mixed up about which bike was whose. � It's been a
>> long time since I've read the book. �As with movies, I often forget
>> most of the story's details soon after. �But a general impression
>> about its quality stays with me. �Hence I know whether I thought a
>> story was great or awful. � I thought ZATAOMM was brilliant.
>> Apparently, according to some Dutchmen this makes me of dubious
>> character. � Fuck you.
>
>You were always a dubious character Gerry.
A fact I'm quite proud of, Theo. I've seen lots of undubious
characters in my time and I don't want ot be anything like yuze. ;-)
>Your opinion is valid. My opinion of the book is different but also
>valid. Perception is reality.
Persception is perception. Perception can be very subjective and
flawed, even erroneous. Ergo, it has nothing whatsoever to do with
reality, except perhaps that on rare occasions, someone will correctly
perceive reality. Get real. ;-)
>> >How very racist of you.
>>
>> Yes, innit? �;-) � � Don't you just love it when you're on the
>> receiving end of stereotyping for a change? � Happy-making, innit?
>Oops, did I touch a little nerve somewhere or do you just hate
>everybody who disagrees with your opinion/perception/reality?
As you believe, so it is for you, glass dropper...
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Diogenes
wrote:
>>> You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
>>> references in it.
>>
>> His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
>I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
You suppose incorrectly. I have never read Proust, let alone
dissertated on him.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Diogenes
Here's the corrected bit:
Yep, the reader's response is valid. My only argument is that when
the reader blames the book for their responsese to it, they are
missing the causality bus entirely.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
F Murtz
> Shit my typing's bad. I think my keyboard is dyslexic.
>
> Here's the corrected bit:
>
> Yep, the reader's response is valid. My only argument is that when
> the reader blames the book for their responsese to it, they are
> missing the causality bus entirely.
still dyslexic.
>
>
> =================
>
> Onya bike
>
> Gerry
Diogenes
wrote:
>Diogenes wrote:
>> Shit my typing's bad. I think my keyboard is dyslexic.
>>
>> Here's the corrected bit:
>>
>> Yep, the reader's response is valid. My only argument is that when
>> the reader blames the book for their responsese to it, they are
>> missing the causality bus entirely.
>
>still dyslexic.
Pedant.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
F Murtz
dissertation / / n.
a detailed discourse on a subject, esp. one submitted in partial
fulfilment of the requirements of a degree or diploma.
dissertational adj.
[Latin dissertatio from dissertare �discuss�, frequentative of disserere
dissert- �examine� (as dis-, serere �join�)]
>
> =================
>
> Onya bike
>
> Gerry
Diogenes
wrote:
>Diogenes wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:50:23 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
>>>>> references in it.
>>>> His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
>>> I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
>> You suppose incorrectly. I have never read Proust, let alone
>> dissertated on him.
>dissertation / / n.
>a detailed discourse on a subject, esp. one submitted in partial
>fulfilment of the requirements of a degree or diploma.
>dissertational adj.
>[Latin dissertatio from dissertare �discuss�, frequentative of disserere
>dissert- �examine� (as dis-, serere �join�)]
Look up "anal retentive."
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
Pietro
news:YZOIm.52535$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:33:21 +1100, Diogenes wrote:
>
>>
>> He was on a Beemer, and I wasn't looking for a gury, and he's not it
>> anyway. As I said, you're not just dismissive of his book, you're
>> dismissive of anyone who sees any merit in the book. How very Dutch of
>> you.
>>
>> Thanks for your time.
>>
>>
>> Onya bike
>>
>> Gerry
>
> I don't think you're right about the bike, Gerry - I've always understood
> he was on a Honda CB350. It was his friends (John(?) and Sylvia(?)) who
> were on the Beemer.
>
> the book, I read it a few times soon after it was published, but when I
> tried to re-read it a couple of years ago, I couldn't - stylistically at
> least, it hasn't aged well at all. So I got rid of our copy, which is why
> I can't refresh my memory on his friend's names.
http://design.caltech.edu/Misc/pirsig.html
Refresh away...
Piotr
F Murtz
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:40:26 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Diogenes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:50:23 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>> You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
>>>>>> references in it.
>>>>> His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
>
>>>> I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
>
>>> You suppose incorrectly. I have never read Proust, let alone
>>> dissertated on him.
>
>> dissertation / / n.
>> a detailed discourse on a subject, esp. one submitted in partial
>> fulfilment of the requirements of a degree or diploma.
>> dissertational adj.
>
> Look up "anal retentive."
>
>
> =================
>
> Onya bike
>
> Gerry
Diogenes
wrote:
>Diogenes wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:40:26 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Diogenes wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:50:23 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of motorcycle
>>>>>>> references in it.
>>>>>> His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
>>
>>>>> I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
>>
>>>> You suppose incorrectly. I have never read Proust, let alone
>>>> dissertated on him.
>>
>>> dissertation / / n.
>>> a detailed discourse on a subject, esp. one submitted in partial
>>> fulfilment of the requirements of a degree or diploma.
>>> dissertational adj.
>>> [Latin dissertatio from dissertare �discuss�, frequentative of disserere
>>> dissert- �examine� (as dis-, serere �join�)]
>>
>> Look up "anal retentive."
>Just bored at the moment ,nothing else to do till tomorrow.
Go for a ride.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry
hippo
Bill_h
> Diogenes wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:50:23 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> You must have read another book, Theo. There was plenty of
>>>>> motorcycle references in it.
>>>> His mind is made up, Hammo. Don't confuse him with facts.
>>
>>> I suppose you enjoy endless dissertations on Proust.
>>
>> You suppose incorrectly. I have never read Proust, let alone
>> dissertated on him.
>
> dissertation / / n.
> a detailed discourse on a subject, esp. one submitted in partial
> fulfilment of the requirements of a degree or diploma. dissertational
> adj.
> [Latin dissertatio from dissertare ‘discuss’, frequentative of disserere
> dissert- ‘examine’ (as dis-, serere ‘join’)]
>>
>> =================
>>
>> Onya bike
>>
>> Gerry
Are you dissin' Gerry?
Or Gerry disingenuous?
Bill :)
Diogenes
am9obmhAc2hvYWwubmV0LmF1@REGISTERED_USER_usenet.com.au (hippo) wrote:
>Diogenes wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:36:07 +1100, F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Diogenes wrote:
>> >> Shit my typing's bad. I think my keyboard is dyslexic.
>> >>
>> >> Here's the corrected bit:
>> >>
>> >> Yep, the reader's response is valid. My only argument is that when
>> >> the reader blames the book for their responsese to it, they are
>> >> missing the causality bus entirely.
>> >
>> >still dyslexic.
>>
>> Pedant.
>Maybe your keyboard should catch the Casualty Bus....
Way too deep for me.
=================
Onya bike
Gerry