FDTB Whitefella Dreaming Pt 1
Che Guava
now its a two parts monster..
I do hope some of you mates aren't lurking
ready to make more 'size flames' 8^o
In article <1ejhyzi.rjgg1wp0aejgN%nevi...@bigpond.net.au>,
nevi...@bigpond.net.au (Neville Duguid) wrote:
> Che Guava <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Neville Duguid wrote:
> >
> > > Che Guava <che_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, It ain't universal, Nev.
> > > > (In fact I only mentioned it yesterday, and already it seems
> > > > I don't know what it means ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Most people have what you might call Tattslotto Dreaming..
> > > > or Hollywood Dreaming..
> > > > and lots of kids have Chemical Dreaming
> > > > and even more have stopped dreaming alltogether.
> > > >
> > > > But I wasn't talking about Nostalgia, although I can see
> > > > that coming in through the door of personal experience
> > > > I might have made it seem that way.
> > > >
> > > > It is very NOW, it is very immediate,
> > > >
> > > > you can stand under a desert sky and see a place so full of
> > > > stars and so deep that you fear you might fall into it..
> > >
> > > That is a universal reaction of a certain type of person (perhaps
all of
> > > us in the right mood and circumstance). You could just as easily
be a
> > > Bedouin standing alone in the middle of the Sahara, or a monk on a
> > > Himalayan peak gazing skywards on a clear summer night..
> >
> > Well, here you say it's a universal experience (ie part of every
culture)
>
> If it's part of every culture, it's a universal attribute of the
> species, and not a function of culture, that's what I'm saying.
Like kindness, or honesty, or courage, belief in a fair go
(usually called justice ). Are you saying that if an attribute
is shared by other cultures it becomes excluded from ours.
If not, I really don't understand your point. Apart from a desire
to suggest that, for reasons you haven't explained, poetry about
love of the Australian bush isn't part of Aussie culture,
a proposition which leaves me flabbergasted.
> Surely there's newsgroups for spirituality, psychology, demonology, or
> whatever?
Sure, if you want to talk about those things, be my guest.
The topic here was Australian landscape, the relationship of
the people to it, how it has shaped us, and our responses to it,
the things you speak of may be dimensions of that topic.
But If you prefer these other topics to
"I love an sunburnt country.." I understand, and most of
them sound like they are cultural topics, but they really aren't
*this one* (well, perhaps 'spirituality', but you need to define what
you mean, as it's a fuzzy concept)
> Not everything is culture!
Maybe, but you are saying "I love a sunburnt country" isn't!
> If it was, every newsgroup in
> usenet would have "culture" as part of its name.
>
> > and later you say talking about belongs somewhere other than
aus.culture.t-b
> > (implying that this NG lacks some universal values, a view I have
> > long expoused)
> >
> > > However culture doesn't come into what you are talking about..
> >
> > "I love a sunburnt country.."
> >
> > a poetic personal expression isn't culture????????????
>
> You or I are quite capable of responding to any stimulus we like in
any
> way we like.
But a response in poetry, music, song, dance, painting
or sculpture, is *traditionally* regarded as a 'cultural' expression.
If you are taking a different view you will have to show why.
Othre artificts, (in my view at least), are certainly vital
elements of culture; language, technology, even attitudes
to family, community and social organisation (which leads into
economics and even politics) Thus we speak of some societies
having a culture of violence, or a gambling culture, a business
culture, etc BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE!)
> That doesn't necessarily make our thoughts "culture" any
> more than it necessarily makes everything Einstein thought "science",
or
> everything Turing thought "mathematics". The attitude "It sprung
into
> my head unaided, therefore it must be aus.culture" is what I am
> criticising. Why not "science.astronomy",
Becasue 'twinkle twinkle little star' is more appropriately
*culture* than astronomy!
> or "watusi.religion.spirituality"?
because, (although their country may also be sunburnt),
the poem is about this one!
> Shouldn't there be some easily
> understood yardstick or guideline about what falls within the
paramaters
> of "culture", or more specifically in this case, "Australian culture",
> just the same as there is with any other subdivision of the modern
> world's collective knowledge?
But, good lord man, what 'yardstick' are you using
which says poetry about landscape isn't part of our culture????
>
> > > All you
> > > can come up with is your own description of a personal experience,
which
> > > must of necessity be a poor substitute for the real thing to
anyone
> > > else.
> >
> > "This is my dreaming.. "
> >
> > a poetic personal expression isn't culture?
That was the questiuon you avoided with your 'melodrama'
about astronomy, watusi and multiculturalism, NONE OF
WHICH WERE THE THREAD TOPIC.. ALL OF WHICH YOU ARE
TRYING TO *INTRODUCE* AND **THEN** CLAIM ARE NOT PART
OF AUSSIE CULTURE..
What you have to do is step back, look at what was presented,
and then show how cultural expressions such as poetry,
on a topic such as the relationship to land, IS NOT CULTURAL
IN YOUR VIEW, and how it is linked to all the other irrelevant
things YOU are introducing.
> >
> > Are you saying you reject 'A sunburnt country' because it's
> > 'someones own description of a personal experience'
> > 'a poor substitute for the real thing'
?
> >
> > Or are you saying you only believe in High Art?
??
> > It's only culture when Slim Dusty sings Waltzing Matilda
> > on TV, not when we sing it around the campfire?
???
>
> You're being either facetious or meladramatic.
No, You are being evasive and presumptious.
Is poetry part of Aussie culture?
Is poetry about the australian landscape part of Aussie culture.
Are you really saying that a poem written by an
ordinary aussie, with thumbnail dipped in tar, is
excluded because it's a "personal expression"??
THE SUBJECT IS IMPORTANT, SURELY!?!?!?!?
You seem to be arguing that something has to be
already in the museum, preferably with an akubra on,
to be Aussie culture, I think a kid who plays footy,
or writes about Uluru, or goes walkabout in the
Flinders Ranges IS PART OF OUR LIVING CULTURE!
>
> > Because I tell you.. my view of 'culture' is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE
> > I believe Fair Dinkum culture is that which is *lived*
>
> That is why a.c.t-b was provided for people to *tell* about their own
> individual experiences of australian culture, rather than be limited
to
> what has already been written down in books for them.
But as soon as I do, it is being run through some
censorship filter, some bogus authenticity test
that has you comparing a poem about our rural landscape
to astronomy and the watusi!!! B^p
I don't see your connection, and you aren't explaining it.
>
> > not that which is *consumed* paraded or worn like
> > a costume.
>
> So it was forged in your *past*.
What was? culture?
Yes, by people CREATING IT!
That's how the Cultural *TRADITIONS* were 'forged',
they took THEIR traditions, their cultural legacy,
and re-interpreted it, added to it and changed it.
The LOADED DOG was not, COULD NOT BE, part of
traditional aussie culture until high explosives
were developed.
That legacy which we inherit, was 'forged' in the past.
We draw upon it as inspiration for OUR OWN
contributions to it's celebration, elaboration,
continuation and development.
And the *way* it was forged was by ordinary people
like you and me WRITING POEMS AND PAINTING PICTURES
AND GOING TO DANCES.. just like I am doing now!!!!!
Because you seem so focused on DEFINING what you
think to be the cultural orthodoxy, you are placing
total emphassis on the past, and because I take it and
use it as part of LIVING CULTURE in the PRESENT,
you accuse me of subverting the future!?? Nonsense!
Art has ALWAYS been attacked by the conservatives,
the stick-in-the-muds, in this way.
But I am not destroying tradition, I cherish it.
What is more, I keep it alive by constantly
breathing new life into it, by weaving it into
TODAY, and therefore ensuring it lives into tomorrow.
I have told you about some of the ways in which
I have built opportunities for my children,
and their friends, to experience the bush, to
escape from the Nintendo world and experience
what is outside their window, outside the city
comforts.
I have only ever heard you BEMOAN the loss of this,
to weep nostalgically for the lost past. I share that
sense of loss for what cannot be preserved, but I am
more positive about what can be preserved, and more
optimistic about synergy, AND MORE ACTIVE ABOUT
KEEPING IT ALIVE!
I am fighting my damdest to keep *some part* of it alive,
not as some tacky theme park or faded museum exhibit,
but ALIVE in the hearts of my children, to get them off
their arses and away from the TV and to WRITE A POEM,
to PLAY a ballad, to crutch a sheep, to climb Cradle
Mountain, to make an animated multimedia Waltzing Matilda..
and I'll be fucked if I will have you lecture me for
having a go!
> No amount of railing against it in the
> present can have the slightest affect of what is in the past.
Live it or lose it.
The planet is littered with dead, abandoned and forgotten cultures.
> If you
> are trying to influence our culture's evolution into the future, then
> you are more equivalent to a geneticist trying to breed a new species,
> than a natural historian who is trying to record the natural behaviour
> of a species *before* it was artificially altered.
This is complete twaddle, and deeply insulting.
The way in which culture is influenced is by living it,
celebrating it, contributing to it .. this is all I seek to do.
The notion that writing poetry 'subverts' culture is,
frankly, preposterous.
What does destroy a culture is neglect, faintheartedness,
laziness and ossification ... AND FUNDAMENTALISTS WHO
INSIST ON A RIGID ADHERENCE TO ORTHODOXY. And by doing so,
attack that which is fresh, new and, like babies,
enables the traditions to be propagated.
God is very wise, She doesn't make each generation
a CLONE, an exact copy, she enables a transmission
of the OLD, AND an evolution of the NEW.
Sometimes, like electrification, it is a shock,
and all the traditionalists complain, then they
experiment, adopt and finally embrace.
As Howlin Wolf said "That electric guitar, it had
the queeeer sound, yu know!"
I saw Slim Dusty playing amplified acoustic on
a hydraulically operated platform, under sophisticated
lighting televised to billions. and he was singing
waltzing matilda!
When you focus on applying some 'orthodoxy' test to
something as innocuous as poetry about landscape,
flora and fauna then I don't think you even understand
the tradition I am standing FIRMLY WITHIN!
Have you never seen a misty dawn where in early
light the
"shadows begin to move
turn into grazing kangaroos
then back into silent shadows."
what has that to do with astronomy, or the watusi.
Where could that be, but in 'a sunburnt country'?
>
> > I would rather my kids painted and played music than merely
> > watched and listened.
> >
> > Culture is NOTHING more than the creative expression of
> > individuals. You may choose to believe that only an elite subset of
> > individuals defines a culture.. I disagree.
> > Culture is more than Shakespeare, culture is also TODAY's
> > Baz Lerhman film version of Romeo and Juliet.
>
> But if you can't get a glimmer of recognition from anyone else when
you
> mention it out on the road, then what culture is it part of?
That's what I'm asking you.. why don't you recognise
"I love a sunburnt country..."
Why isn't aussie landscape and its formative
influence on people a valid topic for a.c.t-b???
> Aus.culture.baz.lerhman or aus.culture.che.guava, that's all. We've
> already had discussions about why Ned Kelly is part of aus culture,
but
> not (some people claim) Nigel Parodi.
So what are 'original' poems doing on Gary's website????
> That is the sort of debate that
> is on topic for a cultural newsgroup.
How is "I love a sunburnt country..." off charter???
> Someone asks about someone and no
> one else can remember if they've heard the name before or not.
So, in your view, the first time Banjo published in the
Bulletin he wasn't part of aussie culture?
And he only became part of it when everyone knew who he was?
Absurd.. he was part of our culture FROM THE MOMENT HE
PUBLISHED, no.. FROM THE MOMENT HE **WROTE**
all that changed later was the degree to which he was known.
You definition would say that the Mooroopna Bush Dance
is not part of culture because not enough people around
the country know about it.. I say that's bullshit, and i
don't know why you are pushing such rubbish!
No one has claimed 'everything' is 'culture, but you
are claiming 'I love a sunburnt country' isn't!..
or wasn't until it became a widely known piece...
I say it was part of our culture the moment it was first written.
> That to
> me would be a fair indication the particular individual is no longer
> part of aus.culture to the same extent that Ned Kelly is.
extent? Who but you is measuring everything by what the hoi
polloi remember or have heard of?
Because some city people don't know our culture we are expected
to abandon it? not likely!
>
> > I presume you have lived, as I have, through jazz and rock and roll
> > and reggae and ska and techno and are also aware of classical
> > and baroque.. clearly CULTURE CHANGES..
> > it is dynamic.
>
> And some of it has the durability to stay alive in our minds, and some
> of it is soon last-year's fashion. There was a time when everyone was
> dancing the Charlston. When the last of the people who know how to do
> that die out, it will no longer be part of our culture.
>
"Will no longer be.."?? this happens to everything! Even the pyramids,
one of the most enduring cultural artifacts, will one day be dust..
You merely prove my point, culture is dynamic,
the charleston WAS part of our culture, perhaps is no more...
but while we dance it .. it LIVES!
> The Highland Fling will still be part of Scottish culture though.
When everyone in Edinburgh dances to Ricky Martin???
Isn't it just like the Charleston, popularity waxes and wanes?
> The name means
> something to Scots people everywhere, even if they don't know how to
do
> it themselves, or have never seen anyone else doing it.
I think you are proving my point.. PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THEIR
CULTURE, AND DON'T PRACTICE IT ARE FOOLING THEMSELVES ABOUT WHICH
CULTURE THEY ARE IN!
I write about the land, I walk it, I breathe it, I'ts mine,
it lives, IT'S REAL! not a bit of fading nostalgia.
I keep saying, Fair Dinkum true blue is not a sad, lost,
nostalgic memory.. it is vibrant, it is enduring principles
like a fair go, not following the herd, having a go, lending
a helping hand to the new chum, thumbing your nose at authority,
having a lend of spivs and wankers, wry humour and not taking
yourself too seriously..
It certainly isn't some prissy pommie officer going round
laying down the bloody law about cultural orthodoxy!
Stone the flamin crows!
>
> The question "Is the Charlston part of Scots culture?" might get a
> variety of responses, but most people would say 'No'. (More
> importantly, most Scots people would say 'No'). The Highland Fling,
> however, most people would say 'Yes'.
>
> Is the Highland Fling part of Australian culture? That is something
> that would be open to debate. More a part of our culture than the
> Charlston? There would be different arguments put forward in support
of
> both. To me though, they are part of music history, American pop
> nostalgia, Scottish history and culture (h'land fling) and American
> history, and possibly American culture. (I don't claim to know the
> answer to that last one. To be really sure, I would have to ask an
> American, and I suggest, so would you).
Tell ya what, nev, as this seems to be a special interest of yours,
I am happy for you to be cultural orthodoxy officer in charge of
determining if the Charleston, or the highland fling, or both are
part of our culture or not. B^p
I am tempted to take the easy way out and say, we have the dances,
people perform them, the terms are in our language, the answer is
probably... "YES"
...but as your goal in life is to put neat lines
around what is or isn't YOUR culture, no matter
how undecided, unclear or uninformed you are
(eg the Highland fling seems to be your first in
many tough decisions you face ;-) I will leave you
to your taxonomy.. I'm off to a recitation of
"I love a sunburnt country" to a backdrop of desert
photogrtaphy, then I'm going to the mooroopna Festival
and Bush Dance.. I JUST HOPE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY HIGHLAND
FLING or even bagpipes, until your judgement is in..
because.. GHOD forbid we should actually LIVE
culture, rather than worry about it's 'purity' and
dust it regularly in the museum!
>
> > Key points:
> > Culture is a doing thing, not a museum artifact.
> >
> > Culture is dynamic and must constantly be re-interpreted
> > by each new generation. Try and stuff dead museum culture
> > down kids throats and they will abandon it. Alllow them
> > to do an animated version of teh jolly swagman and it may survive.
> >
> But the point is, the Jolly Swagman is part of Australian culture, but
> not part of (eg) Ukrainian culture. Why one and not the other? To me
> the answer is obvious, and I would think obvious to anyone else who
> knows about Australia and its Jolly Swagman.
So now explain why a poem about Kangaroos at dawn is
NOT Australian, but as you claim should be 'personal
expression' and in an 'astronomy', 'watusi' or now 'Ukranian' NG?
I think you are driven by some obsession ENTIRELY unrelated
to this thread. I am not sure what it is.
> I would also suggest it is
> as obvious to you as it is to anyone else, but you just want to argue
> the point about it rather than allow a commonly understood definition
of
> Aussie culture correspond to the newsgroup that was provided for
> discussing it.
I am simply waiting for you to explain why discussion,
even poetry about australian landscape, flora and fauna
and their impact on our culture is NOT part of the charter.
I have suggested a NG be created where there IS NO DOUBT
that it is a Fair Dinkum topic,
but some of your friends have objected vehemently,
which is strange because like you, they seem to
resent anyone talking about the bush! 8^o
>
> > Culture is the sum of individual expressions, WE create it.
> >
> > On a personal note, I prefer 'roll-your own', to 'slick commercial'.
> >
> Good for you. Many Australians do.
So do many people from other cultures. If it's universal,
by your suggestion, it can't be discussed as part of
Aussie culture?
> I would go so far to say that is
> taken into account by what is commonly understood to be Aussie
culture.
> But it does not of itself deliver a full complement of Aussie culture
to
> anyone anywhere in the world who "rolls his own" (cigarette or
anything
> else).
Perhaps when you have compiled a list of whats in and what's out,
we can compare. So far, we have Highland Fling - 'maybe'?
>
> > > Sure, stand there and look at the stars and contemplate your
> > > heart out. But unless you're a poet, a mystic or an astronomer,
> >
> > all three, amateur but quite passionate about life.
>
> Then can you conceive of some things that belong in aus.poetry not
also
> belonging in aus.astronomer? ("Your eyes are like the stars", he said
--
> aus.opthalmology perhaps, but not aus.astronomy ;-)
Nev, are you asking me to cross-post?
Can you point out the ACTUAL LINES in my original post
which you think belong elsewhere and to which NG's you
think they are relevant??
If not.... ?
> Why not allow also
> allow aus.culture to mean something more specific than
> alt.world.everything?
Why not show were you think I have talked about anything *off
charter* in my original post?
Gary just labeled it "politically infected crap" first
time round, you are being more polite, but still seem to be
implying it doesn't belong, without being specific about WHY.
Otherwise, I have to suggest you are babbling utter nonsense,
or at least, it may relate to your internal dialogue,
but you have shown NO CONNECTION TO MY ORIGINAL POST!
> And if you want to make one newsgroup into a
> universial newsgroup for everything, what's so special about
> aus.culture.true-blue?
False premise, false conclusion.
Tell us why poetry about uniquely aussie landscape is
off topic?
>
> > > I don't
> > > see how one individual's experience affects anyone else who is
just as
> > > capable of having their own optic nerve tickled by photons from
the
> > > cosmos.
> >
> > Well, lets say one of them posts a poem on Whitefella Dreaming
> > to usenet, and before you know it, two or more people are
> > discussing it, and their experiences, (bound to be different, such
is life)
> > and for one brief moment culture isn't just BEING REGURGITATED
> > but is actually ALIVE...
> >
> > fucking ay! B^D
Did that answer the question/implied criticism which
you raised?
> >
> > Now, in a feww weeks, when they can pretend it didn't
> > come from me, it can be 'absorbed' into Gary's website,
> > along with my poetry corner..
> >
> > No need for attributions, why change current practice...
> > Just knowing that I lead and they are forced to follow is enough.
;-)
>
> Ok, winky aside, that is what causes so much conflict between yourself
> and others.
That I have dared to object to people duffing my contributions?
Or that they duffed my contributions?
> Your assumption that aus.culture is a one-way stream out of
> your head into our bodies via the One True FAQ or Website (or
whatever).
No, my suggestion is that you, and your mates, ignore and/or
steal major contributions from fellow posters without even
an attempt at honest attribution.
Look at this thread.. you are going to inordinate lengths
to paint a simple poem and discussion about the role of the
land in our culture into:
"It's just personal expression, not culture"
"It is about astronomy or the watusi"
"Why isn't it in another NG"
You have done this by IGNORING THE ACTUAL CONTENT.
COMPLETELY!
and projecting and fantasising something else entirely.
Look back over the thread and see ALL the red herring
topics you have introduced...
> *Some* of aus culture comes from you. Some of it comes from others.
That which is from me is typically derided then duffed!
The suggestion for a FAQ itself, the poetry corner,
and the one which was really low bastadry: the ANZAC
biscuits, all *first* raised in this NG by me!
All now on Gary's website, all attributed to others.
You blokes are not fair Dinkum!!!!
YOU HAVE SPENT THIS WHOLE THREAD ATTACKING THE VERY NOTION
THAT AN AUSSIE MIGHT DARE TO ACTUALLY WRITE A POEM!
And next, because your relentless carping forces me to
defend the right to practice my culture, you will accuse
me of being a 'big head' or 'claiming I am the ONLY one
who does anything'. Plainly this is not so.
The right to LIVE my culture without the Orthodox
priesthood (who's measuring rod isn't even calibrated
for their own examples viz "Highland Fling') telling
me if its the right fucking size!
> Some of those "cultural contributors" live in the present. Some of
them
> lived in the past. NONE of what we now know about Australian culture
> comes from the future.
Not even hopes and dreams?
You do know Banjo's interest in Federation, don't you?
Before it happened, I mean. ;-)
>
> If something one of your kids does is noteworthy enough and appealing
> enough to be adopted by enough people, and endures the fickleness of
> fashion for long enough, it is just as eligible to become part of
> aus.culture as if it came from anyone else.
NO, I REJECT THAT! IF THEY MAKE A GUM-LEAF WHISTLE
THEY ***ARE*** AUSSIE CULTURE!!!
AND THEY, AND I, DON'T NEED A BLOODY CULTURAL PRIESTHOOD
TO MEASURE US FOR FOR POPULARITY OR ORTHODOXY!
As long as there are two of us, perhaps even one,
who knows, remembers, creates and carries on.. it lives!
> I don't see what causes you
> so much grief and anguish about that.
Having you tell me it's only culture if its
in a bloody census? What a load of bloody codswallop!
You have already seen DOZENS of threads where words
and terms mean QUITE DIFFERENT things to different
parts of Australia.. and here you are putting up some argument
that it's effectively a popularity contest,
and a bush band, or a single painting isn't BIG
enough??
Jesus Nev, how does a *painting*, of which there is
only *one* ever become part of culture???
And if it hangs in a private collection, has it
disappeared from 'culture'
> For a hundred years we all got by
> without gladwrap. Then suddenly we were all using it. We didn't all
> invent it. But someone did. It's just observing what actually
happens
> naturally over the course of time.
I get it, you live in a gladwrap culture because
thats what everyone else does,
well.. I live in a culture where people pride themselves
ON NOT BEING SHEEP!
>
> > > > you can float all day in a wetsuit above a coral wonderland
> > > > and never remember to come in for lunch..
> >
> > > >
> > > > you can walk through a rainforest and feel the cool damp green
> > > > seep into you untill you sprout moss.
> > > >
> > > > you can stop entranced, on a dusty track with Cooks legacy
buzzing
> > > > round your face, and mouth, and eyes, like a torment from hell,
> > > > and listening to a magpie, know instantly that the famed
nightingale
> > > > is a bloody foccacia-fondling fop! B^D
> > > >
> > > > all this is ours, now,
> > > >
> > > > if we stop ripping the heart out of the mutha.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not, as you seem to want me too, lamenting lost
> > > > rustic childhood,
> > > >
> > > > I am singing connection..
> > >
> > > The only way culture comes into it is as a filter that modifies
the way
> > > you interpret what you see because of your own cultural
background.
> >
> > Isn't that what a painting is?, or a song?, or a story...?
> >
> > Hence the poem, the point of this thread. My 'Dreaming'
> > My sense of place, my connectedness with this land.
> >
> > You don't have to feel it Nev, you don't have to agree with it,
> > I have already suggested it needs a Fair Dinkum NG to
> > house it, and "A Fair Go" and a dozen other strange and
> > unique subjects..
>
> The most you can do is lay your "dreaming" on the table. Even promote
> it. But in the end it is up to the general population if they
> understand it or even remember it a few years down the track. You
can't
> just write a poem and declare it part of Australian culture. The
> culture itself decides by its own internal logic, over an extended
> period of time, whether that will happen.
So what you are saying is that because only a tiny tiny tiny
minority of us even talk about true-blue culture, and the vast mass
have forgotton and ignore it for the delights of Baywatch,
it is moribund and defunct?
This notion.. "it's only culture if it has a majority quoram' I reject.
The diaspora Jews maintained their culture for millenia,
as a tiny minority on non-jewish countries.
I will not accept any definition which relies on such
crude, and ultimately pointless quantification.
> There have been many now
> famous artists and musicians (J.S. Bach comes to mind) who were
regarded
> as either esoteric or mediocre in their own time, but who were adopted
> by later generations of musicians and eventually the public more than
a
> century after their death.
Your view says they were not 'culture' till they were popular.
Mine simply says they were not popular till they were popular. B^p
That some contempories were too stupid to recognise
originality cannot make them arbiters of culture,
only of ignorance.
> If JS Bach's manuscripts had been lost after
> he died, he would never have become part of our culture.
If you wish to persist with this, then I ask the
diaspora Jew question: If only Bach, his family
a few friends and descendents thought it was
great music, and played it, was it their culture?
..just as only a small minority of Aussies play Chess...
is it part of our culture?
Part 2 follows..
--
"Money is our god" - The First International Bank of the Golden Calf
"Where there is no vision, the people perish." - Proverbs 29:18
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Gary Meadows
Che Guava
ineffectual, he duffed my FAQ proposal, my poetry corner, my posts..
and now he steals my jokes, again!
________________________________________
From: Che Guava <che_...@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: aus.culture.true-blue
Subject: Re: Would a Cease Fire work in A.C.T-B?
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:21:27 +1100
Che Guava wrote:
> Gary Meadows wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:16:50 +1000, "Lynn"
> > <shades...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >You make absolutely NO sense whatsoever. I don't know how you draw
> the
> > >conclusions that you do considering you don't know me AT ALL! A
> Gary cronie,
> > >I think not. I think for myself thankyou very much............
> > >
> > >I'm inclined myself to believe that you are in fact Che,
>
> Quack Quack Quack!
>
> > but give you the
> > >benefit of the doubt...........please, prove me wrong..........
> >
> > He can't Lynn.
>
> Ack Ack Ack!
>
> > He has recently "discovered" that prior to this NG
> > being raised...he didn't actually "exist". ;-)
>
> Nak Nak Nak! B^D
>
>
Gary Meadows wrote:
> Quack quack, and more quack.
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Gary has never had an original idea in his life!