Internet, now 20 years in Australia
Don McKenzie
http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
Cheers Don...
--
Don McKenzie
Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
Web Camera Page: http://www.dontronics.com/webcam
No More Damn Spam: http://www.dontronics.com/spam
Breakout, Prototype, Development, & Robotics Boards.
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/sparkfun-electronics.html
Electronworks.co.uk
"Don McKenzie" <5...@2.5A> wrote in message
news:7avbitF...@mid.individual.net...
Hi Don
Thanks for this. A trip down amnesia lane. It facinates me that the internet
is so young and yet has had such an impact on people's lives. It is good to
see JANET mentioned as well as this was the first network I used to send
email when at University back in 1987. Little did I know email would now
dictate my life.
Times have changed. Can you imagine life without mobile phones, PCs and the
internet? I was all so different back then...
Thanks
--
Bill Naylor
www.electronworks.co.uk
Electronic Kits for Education and Fun
terryc
> Can you imagine life without mobile phones, PCs and
> the internet?
Imagine? No need,
> I was all so different back then...
That was when there was the illusion of quality TV programs.
--
Great advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three
days.
Clocky
Yet people have forgotten how to communicate, go figure.
basil
> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
Hello, I bought a Commodore 64 in 1984. The internet was rudimentary
until the Sydney Morning Herald opened up the topic. Email was
possible tho I think it was just messaging copied from the English
Prestel. I was friendly with a group of techies from Telecom. The
internet came for me with the Amiga. We had an early way to get to the
internet but as there was no server on NSW Central Coast for a while
we had to download what we wanted and looked at it later. Remember the
user groups? Dick Smith was the first I saw of shopping.
nof
Davo
I was on Packet radio long before the internet.
Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
Chris McDonald
>basil wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 8:40 am, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
>>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
>>>
>>> Cheers Don...
>I was on Packet radio long before the internet.
>Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia.
(Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP,
and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival
of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization.
--
Chris.
keithr
That is true of the "Popular" internet which started with the first
browsers, the "Real" internet even the WWW had been going long before that.
Davo
Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or
even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a
better definition of internet.
Clifford Heath
> Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
Internet == inter-networking, i.e. connecting existing networks,
especially using TCP/IP. It was happening more than a decade
before "the web" was invented, and even now "the web" is *not*
"the Internet".
Clifford Heath.
terryc
I agree that The Internet is something specific as above. Otherwise we
end up discussing whether inter-networking started with dial up modems or
tape exchanges or early OCR of hand written letters, or ......
For me the closest was the 80's and dialing up up a BBS on a CPM luggable
for Fidonet. When I finally hit an internet connected network in the
90's, the "outside" link was only 9600 baud anyway {:-), so were were
still using BBS technology to transfer files between offices.
Chris McDonald
>Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or
>even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a
>better definition of internet.
As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time before the
appearance of IP.
--
Chris.
terryc
> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time
> before the appearance of IP.
Second on the core Internet being tcp/ip technology. There were other
networks, but it is the inter-connectability that made the Internet work.
HTML is just a eye-candy delivery method.
AFAIK, most other networks were structured around a hierachy. In The
Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any other
IP address.
Rod Speed
> Davo wrote
>> Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
> Internet == inter-networking, i.e. connecting existing networks,
Nope, thats not the internet. And it doesnt have to connect networks either, just PCs.
> especially using TCP/IP.
Thats mangled too when that happens with lans.
> It was happening more than a decade before "the web" was invented, and even now "the web" is *not* "the Internet".
Correct.
Mr.T
"Chris McDonald" <ch...@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:h2i1f0$5s2$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
> Davo <Da...@gmail.com> writes:
> >I was on Packet radio long before the internet.
> >Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
In *your* opinion. Many of us were using the internet before then.
> I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia.
> (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP,
> and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival
> of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization.
No, it's just plain wrong.
MrT.
Mr.T
Yep, but of course was far more than 20 years ago.
MrT.
Mr.T
"keithr" <ke...@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a4c8c34$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> That is true of the "Popular" internet which started with the first
> browsers, the "Real" internet even the WWW had been going long before
that.
Whilst the internet, email, ftp, Archie, veronica, Usenet, etc. etc were all
going long before HTML, I think WWW was a term introduced with the advent of
the "Web" as opposed to text based internet. i.e. HTML and subsequently the
Mosaic viewer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web
MrT.
Davo
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:48:26 +0000, Chris McDonald wrote:
>
>
>> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
>> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time
>> before the appearance of IP.
>
> Second on the core Internet being tcp/ip technology. There were other
> networks, but it is the inter-connectability that made the Internet work.
>
> HTML is just a eye-candy delivery method.
>
> AFAIK, most other networks were structured around a hierachy. In The
> Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any other
> IP address.
>
>
>
>
>
It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
HTML didn't exist. Packet radio was one of many networking systems, IP
addressing wasn't the first. I was communicating with people on the MIR
space station before the IP internet came to town.
Mr.T
"Davo" <Da...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a4d78b4$1...@news.peopletelecom.com.au...
> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
> HTML didn't exist.
Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that existed
long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-)
MrT.
Chris McDonald
You do know how to follow a conversation, don't you?
--
Chris.
Chris McDonald
>"Chris McDonald" <ch...@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
>> I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia.
>> (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP,
>> and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival
>> of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization.
>No, it's just plain wrong.
*What* is just plain wrong?
- I was doing what I stated well before 1989.
- I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period
after the arrival of HTTP/HTML.
Which of those statements is wrong, and why?
--
Chris.
terryc
> terryc wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:48:26 +0000, Chris McDonald wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
>>> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time
>>> before the appearance of IP.
>>
>> Second on the core Internet being tcp/ip technology. There were other
>> networks, but it is the inter-connectability that made the Internet
>> work.
>>
>> HTML is just a eye-candy delivery method.
>>
>> AFAIK, most other networks were structured around a hierachy. In The
>> Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any
>> other IP address.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
> easy to use.
umm, Davo's comment, email, archie, gopher and probably other I've never
used.
it was useful before
> The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
> HTML didn't exist.
well used by nerdy geeks. HTML is really dross for the stupid; people who
are basically illiterate.
> Packet radio was one of many networking systems,
Correct, there were many networking systems around. None of which had the
versatility of the internet, which is partly why they all disappeared.
The Internet is a bit Borgish really, if your networking system can
interface to it, then your networking system can be part of the internet.
The thing about it wasn't just the physical interface, it is the
"virtual" interfaces like email, usenet, etc,etc. If your networking
system can interface to those, then that part of the internet can be on
your network.
The other problem with proprietary networks was the "cost", you had to
buy the hardware (bleed $$$$) and the software (bleed $$$$).
> IP addressing wasn't the first.
Not the issue. It wasn't invented, but evolved.
Mr.T
> >> I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in
Australia.
> >> (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP,
> >> and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival
> >> of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization.
>
> >No, it's just plain wrong.
>
> *What* is just plain wrong?
That the internet started in 1989 (rather than just the part we currently
call the Web)
> - I was doing what I stated well before 1989.
Me too.
> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period
> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML.
Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web will
go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too.
MrT.
Mr.T
> >> >Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet,
or
> >> >even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a
> >> >better definition of internet.
> >>
> >> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
> >> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time
before
> >the
> >> appearance of IP.
>
> >Yep, but of course was far more than 20 years ago.
>
> You do know how to follow a conversation, don't you?
Better than you it seems.
MrT.
Chris McDonald
>"Chris McDonald" <ch...@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
>> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period
>> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML.
>Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web will
>go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too.
No, please try to follow the conversation.
Are you really claiming it is wrong that "...many people just consider...." ?
I doubt it.
My point is that this is what most people presume.
--
Chris.
Chris McDonald
>Better than you it seems.
Or not, in your case.
--
Chris.
Atom Egoyan
>Davo <Da...@gmail.com> writes:
>--
>Chris.
My recollection is 1984, when I was working at La Trobe, and Computer Science got
a Pyramid. We had email and Usenet News, and comp.sources.unix was full of source
code for cute toys, all of it public domain. And Robert Elz, Don Knuth and
Dennis Ritchie would occasionally post.
Atom Egoyan
Melbourne, Australia
Clifford Heath
> And Robert Elz, Don Knuth and Dennis Ritchie would occasionally post.
In 1980, I used to pick Robert Elz' listings of the "new" TTY driver
out of the trash can and read them, complete with his circles around
where function parameters were reversed, etc. Ahh the days when C had
no parameter type-checking. Poring over fan-form listings on 15" wide
paper was what he used to do while working late and watching the test
cricket.
Clifford Heath.
Mr.T
> >Better than you it seems.
>
> Or not, in your case.
Despite your snipping attempt, I'm still doing better than you though.
MrT.
Mr.T
> >> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the
period
> >> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML.
>
> >Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web
will
> >go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too.
>
> No, please try to follow the conversation.
Your stupid crap, or what was originally written?
> Are you really claiming it is wrong that "...many people just
consider...." ?
> I doubt it.
Please read what was written, not what you pretend is written just so you
can make stupid remarks.
> My point is that this is what most people presume.
Maybe you do, but don't pretend to speak for everyone else.
MrT.
keithr
Mosaic, I used both with a character based comms program called Telix
before Mosaic became available (at $5 per hour dialup)
Michael A. Terrell
Most people are ignorant of anything more complex than a light
switch.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Chris McDonald
>Your stupid crap, or what was originally written?
Keep digging. Bye.
--
Chris.
Davo
It's not that they're ignorant it's just that they don't know, which
isn't the same thing.
You have to remember that by definition half of the population have a
below average IQ. The indicator of true intelligence is the ability to
deal with problems, which includes dealing with people that aren't as
bright as we'd like them to be. Einstein was a great example of this,
which is why he is remembered for his humility and humour as much as his
cleverness.
Michael A. Terrell
Davo wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Chris McDonald wrote:
> >> "Mr.T" <MrT@home> writes:
> >>
> >>> "Chris McDonald" <ch...@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
> >>>> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period
> >>>> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML.
> >>> Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web will
> >>> go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too.
> >> No, please try to follow the conversation.
> >>
> >> Are you really claiming it is wrong that "...many people just consider...." ?
> >> I doubt it.
> >>
> >> My point is that this is what most people presume.
> >
> >
> > Most people are ignorant of anything more complex than a light
> > switch.
> >
> >
>
> It's not that they're ignorant it's just that they don't know, which
> isn't the same thing.
Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't
capable of learning it.
Stupid means that you can't learn it.
> You have to remember that by definition half of the population have a
> below average IQ. The indicator of true intelligence is the ability to
> deal with problems, which includes dealing with people that aren't as
> bright as we'd like them to be. Einstein was a great example of this,
> which is why he is remembered for his humility and humour as much as his
> cleverness.
Davo
>
> Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't
> capable of learning it.
Ignorant means you do know something but ignore it. Have a look at the
word, it's obvious.
>
> Stupid means that you can't learn it.
>
>
Maybe it does, but it can also mean you can learn it, but choose not to
take on the knowledge. For example when someone makes a stupid mistake
it usually refers to something they were doing where they knew the
outcome, but persisted with the action anyway.
Michael A. Terrell
Ok. Beileive whatever turns your rusty crank.
Davo
Yayy
I won!
Mr.T
> > Whilst the internet, email, ftp, Archie, veronica, Usenet, etc. etc were
all
> > going long before HTML, I think WWW was a term introduced with the
advent of
> > the "Web" as opposed to text based internet. i.e. HTML and subsequently
the
> > Mosaic viewer.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web
> >
> Mosaic,
Yep, that's what "subsequently" usually implies.
MrT.
Michael A. Terrell
No, but you're too stupid to know the difference.
Davo
Insults are an indicator of a bad loser.
Michael A. Terrell
Then try to insult me.
Bob Larter
Indeed. I was an avid BBS user from the early 80's, & the first I heard
of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo groups (via
UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived in '95.
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Qanset
> Internet, now 20 years in Australia
> http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
>
> Cheers Don...
>
>
I was working for Telstra when it was first launched.
Back then it was called the Information Super highway.
Davo
> Mr.T wrote:
>> "Davo" <Da...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4a4d78b4$1...@news.peopletelecom.com.au...
>>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
>>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
>>> HTML didn't exist.
>>
>> Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that
>> existed
>> long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-)
>
> Indeed. I was an avid BBS user from the early 80's, & the first I heard
> of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo groups (via
> UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived in '95.
>
Like I said above about nerdy geeks.
Mr.T
> >>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
> >>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
> >>> HTML didn't exist.
> >>
> >> Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that
> >> existed
> >> long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-)
> >
> > Indeed. I was an avid BBS user from the early 80's, & the first I heard
> > of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo groups (via
> > UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived in '95.
>
> Like I said above about nerdy geeks.
You too can apply for a spot on "Beauty and the Geek" then, but I wouldn't
expect too much with that attitude :-)
MrT.
Bob Larter
Mate, I'm crushed. ;^)
Davo
> Davo wrote:
>> Bob Larter wrote:
>>> Mr.T wrote:
>>>> "Davo" <Da...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4a4d78b4$1...@news.peopletelecom.com.au...
>>>>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
>>>>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
>>>>> HTML didn't exist.
>>>>
>>>> Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that
>>>> existed
>>>> long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-)
>>>
>>> Indeed. I was an avid BBS user from the early 80's, & the first I
>>> heard of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo
>>> groups (via UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived
>>> in '95.
>>>
>>
>> Like I said above about nerdy geeks.
>
> Mate, I'm crushed. ;^)
>
Yeah I have to admit I wasn't sure if that was an insult or a compliment.
Bob Larter
<grin> There are lots of us who'd be perfectly happy for Usenet access
to go back to being "nerdy geeks" only.
Mike Paull
>On Jul 1, 8:40�am, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
>>
>> Cheers Don...
>>
>> --
>> Don McKenzie
>>
>> Site Map: � � � � � �http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
>> E-Mail Contact Page:http://www.dontronics.com/email
>> Web Camera Page: � �http://www.dontronics.com/webcam
>> No More Damn Spam: �http://www.dontronics.com/spam
>>
>> Breakout, Prototype, Development, & Robotics Boards.http://www.dontronics-shop.com/sparkfun-electronics.html
>
>Hello, I bought a Commodore 64 in 1984. The internet was rudimentary
>until the Sydney Morning Herald opened up the topic. Email was
>possible tho I think it was just messaging copied from the English
>Prestel. I was friendly with a group of techies from Telecom. The
>internet came for me with the Amiga. We had an early way to get to the
>internet but as there was no server on NSW Central Coast for a while
>we had to download what we wanted and looked at it later. Remember the
>user groups? Dick Smith was the first I saw of shopping.
>
>nof
Wow, you're bringing back some memories there!! I got my C64 around 83/84
and a mate and myself, along with the C64 Programmers Reference Guide
managed to adapt his home brew 300baud modem to it.. My first ever dial up
was to Chisolm Institute (long before it became Monash Uni) using my
friends account, it was a revelation. From there I found a couple of
melbourne bulletin board systems with like minded individuals and from then
on I was hooked on digital communications, local and long, especially long
distance ( some people here may know what i'm talking about) :)
I remember bulletin board names like... Ultimate 64, Sunshine RBBS and
Melbourne Tardis RCPM, heh, i feel so old :)
mike
Mike Paull
<ch...@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>Davo <Da...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>basil wrote:
>>> On Jul 1, 8:40 am, Don McKenzie <5...@2.5A> wrote:
>>>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Don...
>
>>I was on Packet radio long before the internet.
>>Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along.
>
>
>I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia.
>(Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP,
>and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival
>of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization.
I agree, the statement that "Real internet didn't start until HTML code
came along." is wrong. Long before HTTP/HTML many of us were quite happy
logging in to our unix shell accounts to regularly exchange files and data
via ftp, remotely login to computers in other continents using telnet and
send/receive emails using unix mail. And long before IM clients we were
messenging each other using the talk/write commands.
As a teenager of the 80s who grew up with modems and digital communications
and the exploration culture that it brought with it, HTML/HTTP were just
another evolution of something we had been using and watching grow for some
time.
So, Davo, while for you the "real internet" didn't start until HTML came
along for some of us it started much much earlier!!
Mike
Mike Paull
>terryc wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:48:26 +0000, Chris McDonald wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it.
>>> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time
>>> before the appearance of IP.
>>
>> Second on the core Internet being tcp/ip technology. There were other
>> networks, but it is the inter-connectability that made the Internet work.
>>
>> HTML is just a eye-candy delivery method.
>>
>> AFAIK, most other networks were structured around a hierachy. In The
>> Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any other
>> IP address.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and
>easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if
>HTML didn't exist. Packet radio was one of many networking systems, IP
>addressing wasn't the first. I was communicating with people on the MIR
>space station before the IP internet came to town.
That's not true. Prior to HTML the internet was extreemly useful to those
in research and development, military, educational institutions and other
technical areas. And although you might not think it was easy to use none
of us had trouble grasping the concepts required.
HTML certainly allowed the average person easier access to information, a
bonus when the internet was commercialised , and it is a great way to order
and structure documents, however it is not the be all and end all of the
internet.
mike
Mr.T
"Mike Paull" <mike...@removethis.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iolt659kqu8gdeh2q...@4ax.com...
>My first ever dial up
> was to Chisolm Institute (long before it became Monash Uni)
Long before it became "Chisholm Institute" then.
It was "Caulfield Institute of Technology" back then.
MrT.
Mike Paull
Thanks for the correction.. My memory isn't what it used to be, getting old
I guess :)
mike