National BBand,..anyone using it?

[Jason James]

Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me. Just
another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
*would* make sense.

From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it? Why has the
gov decided that Internet access is imperative? We already have other
public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
services in these places makes sense, however.

It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?

Jason

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:

> Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me. Just
> another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
> they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
> *would* make sense.

Tell me about it. I'd just like to get an internet service.

> From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
> private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it?

The speed. It's like 2 million times faster than anything else.

> Why has the gov decided that Internet access is imperative?

Education would probably be one of the main focuses. These days it seems
that you can't go to school without needing access to the internet, and
my kid who started prep this year is already bringing home "homework"
projects that require internet access to complete.

> We already have other
> public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
> provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
> levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
> provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
> services in these places makes sense, however.
>
> It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
> be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?

Because they're catering for the future now. For once.

They've already started rolling out the cable in my town and it'll be
one of the first in the country to be "switched on". Unfortunately for
me because I live about 1km just out of town there wasn't enough houses
in my immediate area to carry the cable that extra distance so my
neighbours and I will be in the "4% of clients" who will need a
dedicated wireless service.

Fuck. I *hate* wireless. It's the most hideously unreliable shit on the
planet.





--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Why are people so cruel]

"Noddy" <m...@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:FTjbt.688$e66...@viwinnwfe02.internal.bigpond.com...

Biggest problem as I see it is that the population has already voted with
their purchases of laptops and tablets and they want truly portable
internet access, not something that is stuck to a router in a back room.
CSIRO had a wireless system that was fast and reliable, but was killed
off when the lobbyists got the fibre option through the government. What
has been hidden from us is the lobbying that went on for the fibre industry
and how much money was spent on getting the government to settle for
a third rate system. I wonder how many Swiss bank accounts got a tickle?

The other problem as I see it is that about 75% of the cost of fibre is
being
spent on the imported technology from China, if we needed $50bn worth
of cars we'd go out and build a factory to supply. Typically of this
government they think that throwing a lot of our money at a project or a
problem is the best way.

Its a bit like the Gonski report on education - throw a few $billion at
education
and we will get better educated kids - instead of fixing education at the
earliest
time kids go to school and teach them the 3Rs so that they can be "educated"
when they get older. (end rant)

[XR8 Sprintless]

People would love fast, reliable wireless and the CSIRO system which was
faster than 4g would have been brilliant. 4g when you are on top of a
tower is pretty impressive as well and faster than the slowest fibre
speed. I'm expecting to be connected to the NBN in a few weeks as the
cablers are now in our area connecting to homes. For me that will mean
the choice of going to 12mpbs or 50mpbs which is where I will probably
end up.

> The other problem as I see it is that about 75% of the cost of fibre is
> being
> spent on the imported technology from China, if we needed $50bn worth
> of cars we'd go out and build a factory to supply. Typically of this
> government they think that throwing a lot of our money at a project or a
> problem is the best way.

That and the fact that in 15 years every bit of fibre will start to need
to be replaced...

>
> Its a bit like the Gonski report on education - throw a few $billion at
> education
> and we will get better educated kids - instead of fixing education at
> the earliest
> time kids go to school and teach them the 3Rs so that they can be
> "educated"
> when they get older. (end rant)

Don't get me started. Suffice to say that they need to re-examine
tertiary education of teachers and make sure that the teachers know the
3R's...

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 8:23 AM, Why are people so cruel wrote:

> Biggest problem as I see it is that the population has already voted with
> their purchases of laptops and tablets and they want truly portable
> internet access, not something that is stuck to a router in a back room.

That may be so, and I agree, but it's killing the network as it stands now.

I can't get an ADSL connection as I'm too far from the exchange (even
though my neighbour is 50 metres further than me and has one, but that's
another matter), so I've had wireless for the last 2 and a half years or
so. When I was first connected it was okay, but suddenly there was a
boom in smartphones and tablets with everyone wanting mobile internet
and all of a sudden the wireless became fucking *hopeless*.

It works fantastic at around 3am when everyone's in bed and there's
plenty of bandwidth available, but between 4pm and midnight most
weekdays and all day Saturday & Sunday when everyone's trying to use it
you're lucky if you can get any connection at all.

Even right now at ten past 9 on Wednesday morning I'm trying to download
a 42mb file and my average throughput is 14KB/sec.

> CSIRO had a wireless system that was fast and reliable, but was killed
> off when the lobbyists got the fibre option through the government. What
> has been hidden from us is the lobbying that went on for the fibre industry
> and how much money was spent on getting the government to settle for
> a third rate system. I wonder how many Swiss bank accounts got a tickle?

Loads probably.

> The other problem as I see it is that about 75% of the cost of fibre is
> being
> spent on the imported technology from China, if we needed $50bn worth
> of cars we'd go out and build a factory to supply. Typically of this
> government they think that throwing a lot of our money at a project or a
> problem is the best way.

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with the *cost*, and I think that
regardless of whatever system you tried to implement you'd have
opposition, but I believe the network needed upgrading ten years ago and
anything we do now is definitely a benefit.

> Its a bit like the Gonski report on education - throw a few $billion at
> education
> and we will get better educated kids - instead of fixing education at
> the earliest
> time kids go to school and teach them the 3Rs so that they can be
> "educated"
> when they get older. (end rant)

It's a joke, isn't it? Gonski recommends "specialist" maths and English
teachers be employed and fed into the system so kids can be better
educated in these areas.

What the fuck? I thought that was a *regular* teacher's job?

You know, the teacher's union has a fuckload to answer for here. They've
continually lowered the bar to make it easier for their "members" to
become qualified teachers, and we've reached the point where *anyone*
could be one. Teachers of the like of my day when I went to school must
be *appalled* by the low standards today, and the various governments
along the way have to cop the flack as well.

It's no fucking wonder that the 18 year old kid across the street from
me is a first year apprentice carpenter and doesn't know what 3 times 20
equals. It's also no wonder that the various state governments want
nothing to do with this Gonski bullshit.


--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 8:36 AM, XR8 Sprintless wrote:


> People would love fast, reliable wireless and the CSIRO system which was
> faster than 4g would have been brilliant. 4g when you are on top of a
> tower is pretty impressive as well and faster than the slowest fibre
> speed. I'm expecting to be connected to the NBN in a few weeks as the
> cablers are now in our area connecting to homes. For me that will mean
> the choice of going to 12mpbs or 50mpbs which is where I will probably
> end up.

Cunt :)

> Don't get me started. Suffice to say that they need to re-examine
> tertiary education of teachers and make sure that the teachers know the
> 3R's...

That's the biggest problem right there.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Jason James]

On Apr 17, 8:02 am, Noddy <m...@wardengineering.com.au> wrote:>
Because they're catering for the future now. For once.
>
> They've already started rolling out the cable in my town and it'll be
> one of the first in the country to be "switched on". Unfortunately for
> me because I live about 1km just out of town there wasn't enough houses
> in my immediate area to carry the cable that extra distance so my
> neighbours and I will be in the "4% of clients" who will need a
> dedicated wireless service.
>
> Fuck. I *hate* wireless. It's the most hideously unreliable shit on the
> planet.

FM wireless should work well. FM has an ability to reject RFI [radio
freq interference] by its innate capture effect. [ found to occur at
the Rx's limiter] I can only assume you are in a part of the
Transmitter's field, which is quite low in sig-strength. For that to
happen, indicates the service-provider has not done their homework
properly.

I'd complain to them in no uncertain way :-)

Jason

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 10:21 AM, Jason James wrote:

> I'd complain to them in no uncertain way :-)

My ISP is Telstra and they're fucking hopeless. I've had an ongoing
dispute with them for over a year and I'm no further along with it that
when I first complained. The ombudsman's office is equally as pathetic.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Albm&ctd]

In article <245c174c-ac9d-4255...@vq7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
5sf...@hotmail.com.au says...

They must have all the techs busy doing this. Meanwhile our dead phone line (for
dial-up) has been out. Reported the fault monday and informed this morning that
it will be fixed somewhere between now and the 9th of May. Had to laugh.
Hey, the missus just got a new Galaxy TAB2 from Optus.

Al - on the borrowed second undead line.
--
I don't take sides.
It's more fun to insult everyone.

[D Walford]

On 17/04/2013 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:
> Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me.

Which ISP is being nationalised?
When I get NBB later this year I can still connect via my same ISP.

Just
> another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
> they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
> *would* make sense.
>
> From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
> private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it? Why has the
> gov decided that Internet access is imperative?

Because what we have now is third world and utter crap especially for
business users.

We already have other
> public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
> provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
> levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
> provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
> services in these places makes sense, however.
>
> It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
> be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?
>

Because its the only method that delivers the desired speed and won't be
obsolete the minute its installed, agree it stupidly expensive but that
has as much to do with our geography than any else.


Daryl

[Albm&ctd]

In article <kkkjoa$qp7$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, xr8_s...@hotmail.com says...

> Don't get me started. Suffice to say that they need to re-examine
> tertiary education of teachers and make sure that the teachers know the
> 3R's...
>

Teachers suck. Why don't they use robots?

Al

[Jason James]

I've only used the OB once over an insurance company who after taking
all my house-ins premiums for 20 yrs, decided to try and stiff me outa
a claim. The house had only lost its roof. The quote did not include
new plaster-panels. After 6 months of all weather conditions the
panels were rooted. Anyway they paid pronto after a sync-pulse from
the OB.

So I can only wonder why they're ineffectual with regard to your
claim ? Telstra are supposed to be operating under QA and Due-
diligence etc etc. What do they say is happening? That your gear is
defective?

Jason

[Jason James]

On Apr 17, 12:48 pm, D Walford <dwalf...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> On 17/04/2013 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:
>
> > Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me.
>
> Which ISP is being nationalised?
> When I get NBB later this year I can still connect via my same ISP.

Ahh I see. Its the bearer-equipment only. I wonder how that will work
out with companies like dodo,..the same as using telephones lines I
guess.

> Just
>
> > another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
> > they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
> > *would* make sense.
>
> >  From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
> > private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it?  Why has the
> > gov decided that Internet access is imperative?
>
> Because what we have now is third world and utter crap especially for
> business users.
>
> We already have other> public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
> > provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
> > levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
> > provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
> > services in these places makes sense, however.
>
> > It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
> > be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?
>
> Because its the only method that delivers the desired speed and won't be
> obsolete the minute its installed, agree it stupidly expensive but that
> has as much to do with our geography than any else.

You're dead right,.each FO cable has around 120gigabits of BW. This
makes sat-bearers which have only 60 odd megs of BW look very anemic,
Plus sat-transponders are expensive [IIRC 15 years ago it cost around
$15m in annual rental for each one]

Jason

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 2:03 PM, Jason James wrote:

> So I can only wonder why they're ineffectual with regard to your
> claim ? Telstra are supposed to be operating under QA and Due-
> diligence etc etc. What do they say is happening? That your gear is
> defective?

My problem is complicated, but in a nutshell I want Telstra to supply me
with an ADSL service in place of the utterly unreliable wireless service
I have.

Telstra says I can't have an ADSL service because I'm too far from the
exchange (by around 300 metres), and that's fair enough. I understand
the physical limitations and am not asking to be treated as a special
case. But there are 5 other houses within 100 metres of me who are *all*
beyond the acceptable distance limit and who have *all* been supplied
with an ADSL service by Telstra over the last 12 months. I'm the only
one here who's applications for an ADSL service that Telstra keeps
knocking back citing the distance limits as the reason why.

To add insult to injury, Telstra *themselves* continually cold call
asking if I'd like to go onto an ADSL contract as it's "available in my
area".

The problem with my wireless service is that it simply doesn't work most
of the time. It's a premium service that I pay dearly for (100 bucks a
month for a 15gb bandwith limit) and the reliability of the service is
appalling. There is nothing wrong with my reception as I have a very
good external antenna and the signal strength is excellent. The problem
is with *congestion*. Telstra is massively over-selling their wireless
network to the point where connections during peak times are next to
impossible and unreliable at most others. For me it'll vary between
intermittent to completely unusable and it can go on for hours. For
example last night bewteen 7:30 and 11pm I was able to connect reliably
for 20 minutes at best. The usual pattern is 2 minutes on 4 minutes off,
3 minutes on 2 miniutes off, etc, and so on. You can't download anything
of significance because you might be lucky enough to get 75% of it
before it drops out, and when it does the wasted 75% portion counts
against your ridiculous monthly download limit.

Telstra's answer to this is simply "that's the way it is, and we're
working to improve the service in your area". The irony is that the very
reason they *won't* give me an ADSL service is that they're "concerned"
that it won't live up to their "quality of service" obligations because
it's beyond the allowable limit. This is in spite of the guy right
across the street from me having an ADSL1 service that is rock solid
reliable.

The Ombudsman's response is to make Telstra "fix the issue or release me
from my contract so I can go elsewhere". Grouse. I don't have a
contract, and there is nowhere else to go.

They all need fucking with an axe.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[jonz]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

if you talk to Telstra et-al, the way you talk to pple in here, they
will prolly just leave you to stew in yer own juice, (even if you can be
connected)......Karma.


>
>


--
�Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it�

[Jason James]

Over time I have heard of similar problems with basic telephone
service from Telstra. They smacked of being that way due a shitty they
had with the subscriber. This was some time ago, and you may remember
such stories on nightly current-affairs programs. The backstop is the
OBudsman. They must have given you a reason why they couldn't help
you??

I got on the wrong side of Vodophone çause I didnt recharge my mobile-
phone enough, instead using it for incoming calls only. They cut me
off, and refused to honour a new recharge stating a vague "problem
with your street name"

Jason

[Jason James]

Ohh yeah, and you're any example? When you pay your way, you can
expect a std of service. It maybe that Nod has an interference source
close by which is screwing with his wireless service. If I lived near
him, I would use a sectrum-analyser to suss out any RFI. I dont know
what frequency band his wireless-connection operates on. If its lower
than 200 mhz, RFI can be a problem, especially if there is a
communication site nearby [less than 600 metres]. That's my best bet
i.e. intermittent interference wiping out his wireless service.

If I was in his shoes, I'd get a technician from a TV repair place who
has a spec-an to not only sweep for RFI, but check the magnitude/level
of Telstra's carrier *to* his gear *and* his own TX carrier levels
*to* Telstra..

Jason

[jonz]

> I got on the wrong side of Vodophone �ause I didnt recharge my mobile-

> phone enough, instead using it for incoming calls only. They cut me
> off, and refused to honour a new recharge stating a vague "problem
> with your street name"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
Vodafone offers 365 day pre paid plan...............Work the rest out
yerself............
>
> Jason

[atec77]

On 17/04/2013 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:

> Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me. Just
> another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
> they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
> *would* make sense.
>

commie red spendthrift buuuuuullshite maybe with the idea that
censoring the world contact is good for the populace and keeps them
under control
maybe

> From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
> private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it? Why has the
> gov decided that Internet access is imperative? We already have other
> public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
> provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
> levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
> provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
> services in these places makes sense, however.
>
> It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
> be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?
>
> Jason
>

--









X-No-Archive: Yes

[atec77]

On 17/04/2013 12:48 PM, D Walford wrote:
> On 17/04/2013 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:
>> Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me.
>
> Which ISP is being nationalised?
> When I get NBB later this year I can still connect via my same ISP.
> Just
>> another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
>> they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
>> *would* make sense.
>>
>> From what I have heard on the news, the service will be cheaper than
>> private ISP BB, but not by much. So what's the use of it? Why has the
>> gov decided that Internet access is imperative?
>
> Because what we have now is third world and utter crap especially for
> business users.

bullshite

>
> We already have other
>> public-domain info sources i.e. the media. One area where the IN does
>> provide a valuable service is educational,..for folks studying at all
>> levels, however many schools and tertiary educational institutions
>> provide IN access. The local library is another. Providing expanded
>> services in these places makes sense, however.
>>
>> It also looks like they're going to use fibreoptic cables, which will
>> be nice, but why so expensive a transmission-service?
>>
> Because its the only method that delivers the desired speed and won't be
> obsolete the minute its installed, agree it stupidly expensive but that
> has as much to do with our geography than any else.

installing the current fibre undesign is already dated and low
performing , at a cost in the many thousand with sfa backhaul it's a
sparkling performer <NOT>
I already have a gig an hour which I can exploit most of the day
>
>
> Daryl
>


--









X-No-Archive: Yes

[jonz]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```
NAH, its just a cunt.........to hell with him.
>
> Jason

[Jason James]

> > I got on the wrong side of Vodophone çause I didnt recharge my mobile-

> > phone enough, instead using it for incoming calls only. They cut me
> > off, and refused to honour a new recharge stating a vague "problem
> > with your street name"
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
> Vodafone offers 365 day pre paid plan...............Work the rest out
> yerself............

They might now,..they didnt back then.

Jason

[jonz]

>>> I got on the wrong side of Vodophone �ause I didnt recharge my mobile-

>>> phone enough, instead using it for incoming calls only. They cut me
>>> off, and refused to honour a new recharge stating a vague "problem
>>> with your street name"
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
>> Vodafone offers 365 day pre paid plan...............Work the rest out
>> yerself............
>
> They might now,..they didnt back then.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For at least the last 5 yrs they have...........

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 7:38 PM, Jason James wrote:

> If I was in his shoes, I'd get a technician from a TV repair place who
> has a spec-an to not only sweep for RFI, but check the magnitude/level
> of Telstra's carrier *to* his gear *and* his own TX carrier levels
> *to* Telstra..

That's an interesting idea Jason, but it wouldn't really do anything
other than satisfy my own curiosity. Telstra wouldn't accept the results
of such a "test", and I already know it doesn't work.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 6:36 PM, Jason James wrote:

> Over time I have heard of similar problems with basic telephone
> service from Telstra. They smacked of being that way due a shitty they
> had with the subscriber. This was some time ago, and you may remember
> such stories on nightly current-affairs programs. The backstop is the
> OBudsman. They must have given you a reason why they couldn't help
> you??

The reason they can't help is because they're a toothless terror. They
don't have the power to do anything in other words.

All they *can* do is to "open an investigation", but I've been told in
advance that there is only two possible outcomes in that Telstra will
either fix the problem or they'll remove any contractual obligations I
may have and allow me to walk away free of charge. That doesn't really
help me as I'm not on a contract and walking away is useless as no one
else will be able to supply me with an ADSL service as they all rely on
Telstra to make the hardware connection.

They've also told me that they don't have the power to force Telstra to
provide me with a service, and when I asked "who does" their response
was kinda vague. They suggested I try Consumer Affairs but said that
they'd probably not want to know and would be likely to bounce me back
to the Telecommunications Ombudsman.

Off the record the guy I spoke to also told me to not hold my breath for
an outcome any time soon as his office has recently been swamped with
cases relating to smartphones, and I was unlikely to see a result any
time soon. I'm sure that Telstra is also well aware of this, which
probably explains why I get a new case manager every 4 weeks and have to
start from scratch all over again.




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 7:49 PM, atec77 wrote:

> I already have a gig an hour which I can exploit most of the day

If that's code for "finger my arsehole while I masturbate" then I
believe you.






--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[jonz]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Coz yer a nice guy?....................
>
>
>
>


--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,

difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind

boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

[Sylvia Else]

On 17/04/2013 8:02 AM, Noddy wrote:

> Fuck. I *hate* wireless. It's the most hideously unreliable shit on the
> planet.

The fixed wireless service is not like ordinary wireless internet. As I
understand it, you won't be sharing bandwidth. If appropriate you will
presumably have a directional antenna on your roof. I can't see why it
would be any less reliable than the fibre optic link.

Sylvia.

[F Murtz]

And now it seems bigpong newsgroup server has ceased.
according to scuttlebut but no comunication from the provider about it.

[Sylvia Else]

On 17/04/2013 7:07 AM, Jason James wrote:

> Why the gov wanted to nationalize an ISP function is beyond me. Just

> another multi billion dollar exercise to go further into debt. Sure,
> they should provide a service where people have no hi-speed ISP,..that
> *would* make sense.

The last mile of telecommunication service provision is a natural
monopoly, because it makes no economic sense for two or more separate
companies to install infrastructure for supplying the service to the
same potential customers. Where there is no monopoly provider with an
obligation to service all customers, commercial providers will cherry
pick the most profitable customers, and leave the remainder out in the
cold. We saw that with cable TV (and on the back of it, cable internet)
which only became available in some cities, and then only in parts of them.

Telstra inherited the natural monopoly in telphone wiring, which remains
to this day the most common way that people obtain their Internet
services (ADSL). The wiring became subject to regulation, but because
Telstra provides value-added services itself, it never played fair. When
Conroy gave his talk in the US (the one in which he made the widely
misrepresented underpants comment), he made it clear that one reason for
going down the NBN route was to deal with Telstra's continuing dominance
of telecommunications in Australia many years afer the sector was
deregulated.

I will myself benefit from the NBN eventually (whether it's Labor's
version, or the Liberals') because it will allow me to separate the
performance of the last mile from the international bandwidth purchased
by my ISP. At the moment, my only viable last-mile option is Optus
cable, because I'm too far from the exchange to get a reasonable ADSL
speed. Unfortunately, Optus's international bandwidth is severely limited.

Sylvia.

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 11:09 PM, F Murtz wrote:

> And now it seems bigpong newsgroup server has ceased.
> according to scuttlebut but no comunication from the provider about it.

It still works for me, but like everything associated with Telstra it's
unreliable.

--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 17/04/13 10:57 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

> The fixed wireless service is not like ordinary wireless internet. As I
> understand it, you won't be sharing bandwidth. If appropriate you will
> presumably have a directional antenna on your roof. I can't see why it
> would be any less reliable than the fibre optic link.

Weather. It knocks wireless around.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Blue Heeler]

On 17/04/2013 8:23 AM, Why are people so cruel wrote:

>
> Its a bit like the Gonski report on education - throw a few $billion at
> education
> and we will get better educated kids - instead of fixing education at
> the earliest
> time kids go to school and teach them the 3Rs so that they can be
> "educated"
> when they get older. (end rant)


You have of course read the Gonski report?

Being as it is a "root and branch" restructure of the education system I
wonder why you apparently think as you do.


Mind you, if parents would take a little time to teach their children
manners and discipline teachers would have a better time trying to
educate the rude, obstinate little brats. And whilst we are on the
topic, a bit of respect for teachers from parents might help a bit too -
when parents treat teachers like lackey child minders, take the child's
side in any dispute and generally run down teachers, is it any surprise
that the children then reflect their parent's "values".

[Blue Heeler]

On 17/04/2013 8:36 AM, XR8 Sprintless wrote:

>
> That and the fact that in 15 years every bit of fibre will start to need
> to be replaced...
>>


Yeah? Funny that, because as far as I know fibre in the ground is pretty
much forever unless it gets physically damaged. What makes you think
that it is subject to degradation over time?

[Blue Heeler]

On 17/04/2013 9:25 AM, Noddy wrote:

>
>> Don't get me started. Suffice to say that they need to re-examine
>> tertiary education of teachers and make sure that the teachers know the
>> 3R's...
>

> That's the biggest problem right there.
>

Of course it was never the parents responsibility to do a bit of 3Rs
training was it?

[Blue Heeler]

On 17/04/2013 9:23 AM, Noddy wrote:

>
> It's a joke, isn't it? Gonski recommends "specialist" maths and English
> teachers be employed and fed into the system so kids can be better
> educated in these areas.
>
> What the fuck? I thought that was a *regular* teacher's job?

It was once when parents took some responsibility for their offspring's
education, seeing as they no longer do it takes a higher level of skills
to try and teach in the face of parental indifference and the widely
pervasive beleif that the current situation is entirely the teacher's fault.

>
> You know, the teacher's union has a fuckload to answer for here. They've
> continually lowered the bar to make it easier for their "members" to
> become qualified teachers, and we've reached the point where *anyone*
> could be one.

Really? And how is that so? When I (and presumably you) first went to
school, many of the teachers were "18 month wonders", as in 18 months
from finishing year 12 to standing in front of smelly children, a by
product of the post WWII baby boom.

Move forward to the 70s and you could still obtain a 3 year DipTeach at
teacher's college. All that is gone now and the sole bachelor degree
path is a 4 year degree (although 1~2 year grad Dip Teach courses exist
for those who already hold a bachelor degree in something else)

So exactly how did the union contribute to lower standards?


The only time i can recall where there was a specific lowering of
standards was in the late 70s when so few males were taking up teaching
as a course of study that every effort was made to push them through. I
could make the observation that many of those that scraped through by
the skin of their teeth are now senior principals, regional directors
and the like, but that is an argument that can cut both ways.

The real issue in education is the utter abrogation of responsibility by
parents, it is the "elephant in the room" that nobody wants to address.


Final comment - you reckon teachers have a problem. I've been
interviewing Gen X law grads for the last week, the vast majority can't
spell, can't speak and can't think. They also seem to think that
$70~$80k is a good starting salary for someone who in the normal course
of things will not even begin to cover their salary for a year or so and
whose need for constant supervision costs the senior lawyers valuable
time that they could otherwise be charging for.



Teachers of the like of my day when I went to school must
> be *appalled* by the low standards today, and the various governments
> along the way have to cop the flack as well.
>
> It's no fucking wonder that the 18 year old kid across the street from
> me is a first year apprentice carpenter and doesn't know what 3 times 20
> equals. It's also no wonder that the various state governments want
> nothing to do with this Gonski bullshit.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.

[Jason James]

Man that sux. Looks like you'll be using dial-up until **someone**
pulls their finger out of their arse.
One way to perhaps get a service like your neighbors, is to use your
wife's maiden surname and your son's christian name? This is
predicated on the basis they are stuffing you around. You may need to
change your phone number(s).

Jason

Jason

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 6:31 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:

> Of course it was never the parents responsibility to do a bit of 3Rs
> training was it?

Of course it is, but how much blame would you like to remove from teachers?

*They're* the ones who changed the three R's in the school curriculum.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[XR8 Sprintless]

Actually it isn't. It has a lifespan of between 15 to 60 years with 15 -
30 being real life experience.

Corning quotes their cable as having a service lifespan of 20 years.

http://csmedia.corning.com/CableSystems/%5CResource_Documents%5Cgeneric_specifications_rl%5CPGS109.pdf

All sorts of things contribute to the limiting of it's lifespan,
including the transmission power, any bends in the cable etc.

[XR8 Sprintless]

No parents need to do the 4R's... Reading, Riting, Rithmatic, and
RESPECT....

You talk in another post of interviewing young graduates who can't
spell, and think but expect to be paid thousands. Do you not think that
this is an end product of a poor education system, and a poor university
system?

The problem stems from the fact that you can now pass by doing your
best, spelling doesn't really matter, and a lot of pressure on lecturers
to pass students because the students are paying a shitload of money to
do these subjects... Your average law subject costs over $1000 to
undertake with the current yearly contribution of $9,792 at Uni of
Canberra. UQ is $9137. Other Uni's may charge more or less!

That's nearly $37000 in debt before you even start practice based on a 4
year degree, then you can see why students place pressure on lecturers
to pass them and why plagiarism is rife in Universities.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 6:45 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:

> It was once when parents took some responsibility for their offspring's
> education, seeing as they no longer do it takes a higher level of skills
> to try and teach in the face of parental indifference and the widely
> pervasive beleif that the current situation is entirely the teacher's
> fault.

That's an interesting comment in that it seems to place a high degree of
confidence in the ability of the average parent, and given some of the
people I meet out in the real world I wonder about the accuracy of that :)

> Really? And how is that so? When I (and presumably you) first went to
> school, many of the teachers were "18 month wonders", as in 18 months
> from finishing year 12 to standing in front of smelly children, a by
> product of the post WWII baby boom.

Most likely, but they were different people than those of today, and had
different methods and means.

> Move forward to the 70s and you could still obtain a 3 year DipTeach at
> teacher's college. All that is gone now and the sole bachelor degree
> path is a 4 year degree (although 1~2 year grad Dip Teach courses exist
> for those who already hold a bachelor degree in something else)
>
> So exactly how did the union contribute to lower standards?

You seem to equate a longer learning curve with a better quality
graduate and I would disagree with that. The union has been controlling
the school curriculum for years, and never in the interests of the
students.

Look at the differences in teaching between when you and I went to
school and today. This exact point gets hammered home to me on a regular
basis as I have a young kid going to primary school and can see the
differences from the days when I went.

I've mentioned before that my kid's school got a mega million dollar
make-over not long ago (the benefits of a marginal federal seat), and
it's elaborate. They have a fantastic room dedicated to the study of
indigenous Australians but they don't teach history. They also have a
wonderful "Asian" room that's dedicated to the study of Chinese but they
don't have specific English classes. They have science classes but
there's not a periodic table chart anywhere to be seen. They teach
"numeracy" (what the fuck was wrong with calling it "maths"?) but
there's not a times table chart to be found anywhere and it appears that
your kid isn't capable of being taught *anything* unless they have a
laptop and access to the internet.

I don't know what your take on this is but to me it's not an "education"
in any traditional sense.

> The only time i can recall where there was a specific lowering of
> standards was in the late 70s when so few males were taking up teaching
> as a course of study that every effort was made to push them through. I
> could make the observation that many of those that scraped through by
> the skin of their teeth are now senior principals, regional directors
> and the like, but that is an argument that can cut both ways.

Indeed it can.

> The real issue in education is the utter abrogation of responsibility by
> parents, it is the "elephant in the room" that nobody wants to address.

Be that as it may, it doesn't absolve teachers of their responsibilities.

I'm not particularly bothered by it as my wife and I are responsible
parents. Our kid could do basic reading, writing and arithmetic before
he started school but neither of us have pushed him. We've just given
him enough of the basics that we feel he should have to be ready to
start school but to me it feels as if the roles have been completely
reversed. Where it used to be the responsibility of the parents to equip
their children with social skills while the schools educated them it now
feels like it's the *parent's* job to teach their children how to read,
write and do maths while the schools fill kids up with their social graces.

> Final comment - you reckon teachers have a problem. I've been
> interviewing Gen X law grads for the last week, the vast majority can't
> spell, can't speak and can't think. They also seem to think that
> $70~$80k is a good starting salary for someone who in the normal course
> of things will not even begin to cover their salary for a year or so and
> whose need for constant supervision costs the senior lawyers valuable
> time that they could otherwise be charging for.

Maybe they're the result of an education system that doesn't work well.

I don't particularly believe in the recommendations of the Gonski
report, as it basically re-hashes shit that everyone's been talking
about for years and concludes that throwing money at it will
automatically make things better, but at least the study recognised that
the system has problems.

And it does.

In my not so humble opinion we need to go back to the old ways of
teaching kids to read, write, spell and do maths. We need to go back to
having kids who flunk a year being forced to repeat it and we need to be
able to turn kids out of school who if they lost their mobile phone they
*don't* suddenly go into hypoglycaemic shock at the thought of doing
something as basic as telling the time.

Of course, we won't be heading back there as in order to do that you
need to have teachers who are capable of such things themselves, and
they seem to be as rare as rocking horse shit.

And herein lies the problem.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 8:06 AM, Jason James wrote:

> Man that sux. Looks like you'll be using dial-up until **someone**
> pulls their finger out of their arse.

I don't get dial up, as I can't even get that. At least not on purpose :)

The only thing Telsta are currently prepared to supply me with is their
appalling wireless service, and that's presumably so they can rip a
hundred bucks a month out of my pocket for a piss-farting 15gb monthly
limit compared to 40 bucks a month for *500gb* if I was on ADSL. To make
matters worse, once I've used my paltry monthly limit (which usually
happens by the third week thanks to all the drop outs and missed
downloads) I get shaped to 56KB/sec dial up speed while those spending
far less on an ADSL account get shaped to 256KB/sec.

Just as a final salt rubbing gesture, Telstra even shapes you when you
access any of their "unmetered" web pages :)

> One way to perhaps get a service like your neighbors, is to use your
> wife's maiden surname and your son's christian name? This is
> predicated on the basis they are stuffing you around. You may need to
> change your phone number(s).

My closest neighbour is right across the street, and his front door is
about 60 metres from mine. up until about 2 months ago he was in exactly
the same position as me in that he had a Telstra wireless internet
service and it was appallingly unreliable. But somehow, after *months*
of complaint, he managed to get onto the one person who was prepared to
do something for him. They offered to ignore the advice from their
technicians and make an ADSL1 connection just as an experiment to see if
it worked, and as expected it worked perfectly. It's still working
perfectly to this day and he now as a permanent ADSL connection to his
house that Telstra seems happy to let him have even though he's beyond
the acceptable limit of the exchange.

What pisses me off, apart from the fact that he has it and I don't, is
that he's actually further from the exchange than I am. We live in a
court that's roughly 250 metres long, and the phone cable comes down my
side of the road, loops around the end and goes back on his side to stop
just past his place making him about 150 metres further along the cable
than I am. There are 17 nodes available at the exchange as of last
Thursday, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that an ADSL1
connection won't work just as well at my place as it does over the road.

Other than the fact that I can't get them to make the connection.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Sylvia Else]

Conventional wireless internet is quite possibly operating near the
limit of its signal to noise ratio. With a fixed directional antenna on
the roof, this shouldn't be an issue.

Sylvia.

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:07:23 +1000, Noddy <m...@wardengineering.com.au>
wrote:

Beg to differ.

<rant> SWMBO is a primary school teacher (approaching retirement,
trained in the 90's) and the curriculum is not in any way determined
by the teachers, much to their regret. Every time some political
force decides that some new subject area *must* be included in the
curriculum, something misses out as there is only a set amount of
contact time. Over the last couple of decades (or more?) the 3 R's
have been the area that has made way for the added crap.

With deliberately corrupted spelling in TV advertising since decades
back, that was always a losing battle. Add in computers and mobile
devices and the nails are already in the coffin.

When I went to school - and I'm sure it's the case for you and many
others here - our "times tables" were beaten into our heads. That
emphasis has gone too, but *not* by any choice of teachers. They are
the unfortunate victims of a shifting curriculum determined by (in
W.A. at least) a Curriculum Council which is directed by the
Department of Education and therefore implementing the wishes of its
masters of the day.

Kids these days rock up to start school without values, without
respect for any elders or authority figures (including their own
parents), generally without any decent hygiene training, and often
with attitude already showing.

In my younger days, if you stepped out of line in the street, Mr Plod
would as likely as not drag you home by the ear and hand you to your
parents for discipline. Dr Spock and all the left-leaning do-gooders
say if you smack your child you are guilty of child abuse. Discipline
gone. Respect for elders gone.

In school, many a time I experienced a teacher throwing a duster at an
unruly student, smacking one behind the ear or whacking him with a
ruler. Discipline of that type is regrettabley long gone and the most
the teacher can do nowadays is send the kid to the principal. That is
useless, as the kids tell their parents porkies and the parents -
believing their little darlings - bear down on the principal who caves
in and takes it out on the teacher.

The system is rooted. But all the Gonski reports in the world won't
change it. Performance pay for teachers won't change it. You can't
polish a turd, but that's what some expect our school system to do
with the material they are sent. Until the kids arriving at schools
have values/respect/discipline already drilled into them at home, the
school sysytem will remain rooted. The parents are the ones that must
start that process. You can't build a tower on a foundation of shit.
The teachers only get them for about 6 hours a day. </rant>

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:04:50 +1000, Noddy <m...@wardengineering.com.au>
wrote:

>You seem to equate a longer learning curve with a better quality
>graduate and I would disagree with that. The union has been controlling
>the school curriculum for years, and never in the interests of the
>students.

Dunno what happens in Vic, but that's not the case in W.A.

>Look at the differences in teaching between when you and I went to
>school and today. This exact point gets hammered home to me on a regular
>basis as I have a young kid going to primary school and can see the
>differences from the days when I went.
>
>I've mentioned before that my kid's school got a mega million dollar
>make-over not long ago (the benefits of a marginal federal seat), and
>it's elaborate. They have a fantastic room dedicated to the study of
>indigenous Australians but they don't teach history. They also have a
>wonderful "Asian" room that's dedicated to the study of Chinese but they
>don't have specific English classes. They have science classes but
>there's not a periodic table chart anywhere to be seen. They teach
>"numeracy" (what the fuck was wrong with calling it "maths"?) but
>there's not a times table chart to be found anywhere and it appears that
>your kid isn't capable of being taught *anything* unless they have a
>laptop and access to the internet.

See my other reply to you regarding all this crap stuff that is being
forced in at the expense of the 3R's. NOT the teachers' choice.

>I don't know what your take on this is but to me it's not an "education"
>in any traditional sense.

Agree.

(snip)

>I'm not particularly bothered by it as my wife and I are responsible
>parents. Our kid could do basic reading, writing and arithmetic before
>he started school but neither of us have pushed him. We've just given
>him enough of the basics that we feel he should have to be ready to
>start school

regrettably too many don't arrive at school with any of that. And now
that the pre-school porcess is reaching further down, they don't get
any of it there either. Whn my eldest was in pre-school, he wanted to
use pencils and paper. Nope, only finger-painting and the like -
"the'll get enough of pencils/writing when they get to Grade 1" was
the comment.

>but to me it feels as if the roles have been completely
>reversed. Where it used to be the responsibility of the parents to equip
>their children with social skills while the schools educated them it now
>feels like it's the *parent's* job to teach their children how to read,
>write and do maths while the schools fill kids up with their social graces.

To a fair degree.

>I don't particularly believe in the recommendations of the Gonski
>report, as it basically re-hashes shit that everyone's been talking
>about for years and concludes that throwing money at it will
>automatically make things better, but at least the study recognised that
>the system has problems.

The unions are now pushing the Gonski report but for the wrong reason.
They see it that if you pour megabucks into the education system, some
will end up in the teachers' pockets. The teachers union as such are
as short sighted and self-centred as any I have ever seen.

>In my not so humble opinion we need to go back to the old ways of
>teaching kids to read, write, spell and do maths. We need to go back to
>having kids who flunk a year being forced to repeat it and we need to be
>able to turn kids out of school who if they lost their mobile phone they
>*don't* suddenly go into hypoglycaemic shock at the thought of doing
>something as basic as telling the time.

+1. The simple fact that students can't be made to repeat is one of
the biggest factors in the machine turning out illiterates.

>Of course, we won't be heading back there as in order to do that you
>need to have teachers who are capable of such things themselves, and
>they seem to be as rare as rocking horse shit.

No they aren't the problem. They are hamstrung. They can't have
dunderheads kept down. They can't apply discipline. The available
measures are as uselss as a slap on the wrist with a limp tram ticket,
and even that would risk dismissal and/or a lawsuit.

I'm all for the system getting back to the way it used to be. But the
chances of that are nil, and teaching no longer attracts the dedicated
types that you and I experienced. It won't either as long as they are
required to polish turds with one hand tied behind their back. Money
won't change that.

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:27:20 +1000, Blue Heeler <nob...@here.com>
wrote:

>Mind you, if parents would take a little time to teach their children
>manners and discipline teachers would have a better time trying to
>educate the rude, obstinate little brats. And whilst we are on the
>topic, a bit of respect for teachers from parents might help a bit too -
>when parents treat teachers like lackey child minders, take the child's
>side in any dispute and generally run down teachers, is it any surprise
>that the children then reflect their parent's "values".

+1 the lot. Are you sure you're not a teacher?

[who where]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:57:00 +1000, Sylvia Else
<syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

>The fixed wireless service is not like ordinary wireless internet.

Cite?

[F Murtz]

I have a sugestion,does your phone get 3g? it would make my sugestion
work better
Whilever telstra can get more money for your wireless why would they
connect you to something cheaper,either threaten to or actually cancell
your account unless they give you the same commection as your neighbors.
If you can get 3g you could tell them that you were going to use the
opposition with 3g wi fi

[Sylvia Else]

http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/fixed-wireless-factsheet.pdf

Sylvia.

[John McKenzie]

here's the problem as I see it - you are both right, and what that means
is the current generation of parents are a byproduct of both
sub-standard education at school and at home, and as such they are
(relatively) unable to contribute the same level (even if they were
motivated to do so, which is debatable) of supplementary home education.

I knew how to do various mathematical processes before I was in grade 1.
Then I had to 'suffer' through the introductory (slower and more
painful, with no advantage) methods that other students were taught.

Even now at work, people are straight on their phone to do any
calculation you might imagine. I typically have the answer before they
can select the calculator function from their phone.....

>
> Final comment - you reckon teachers have a problem. I've been
> interviewing Gen X law grads for the last week, the vast majority can't
> spell, can't speak and can't think. They also seem to think that
> $70~$80k is a good starting salary for someone who in the normal course
> of things will not even begin to cover their salary for a year or so and
> whose need for constant supervision costs the senior lawyers valuable
> time that they could otherwise be charging for.
>

you wanna try sitting in on negotiations with the fucken CFMEU :)




--
John McKenzie

tos...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com ab...@earthlink.com
ab...@aol.com vice.pr...@whitehouse.gov pres...@whitehouse.gov
swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov admin@loopback ab...@iprimus.com.au
$USER@$HOST underground overground wombling free ro...@mailloop.com
$LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost -h1024@localhost ab...@msn.com
ab...@federalpolice.gov.au frau...@psinet.com ab...@asio.gov.au
$USER@localhost ab...@sprint.com ab...@fbi.gov ab...@cia.gov

[D Walford]

On 18/04/2013 11:28 AM, who where wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:07:23 +1000, Noddy <m...@wardengineering.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/13 6:31 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:
>>
>>> Of course it was never the parents responsibility to do a bit of 3Rs
>>> training was it?
>>
>> Of course it is, but how much blame would you like to remove from teachers?
>>
>> *They're* the ones who changed the three R's in the school curriculum.
>
> Beg to differ.
>
> <rant> SWMBO is a primary school teacher (approaching retirement,
> trained in the 90's)

Must have done her training as a mature student, my younger sister just
retired at 58 and she started her training in the 70's and later went
back to uni to do additional training.

and the curriculum is not in any way determined
> by the teachers, much to their regret. Every time some political
> force decides that some new subject area *must* be included in the
> curriculum, something misses out as there is only a set amount of
> contact time. Over the last couple of decades (or more?) the 3 R's
> have been the area that has made way for the added crap.

True, there is only so much time in a day.

>
> With deliberately corrupted spelling in TV advertising since decades
> back, that was always a losing battle. Add in computers and mobile
> devices and the nails are already in the coffin.
>
> When I went to school - and I'm sure it's the case for you and many
> others here - our "times tables" were beaten into our heads. That
> emphasis has gone too, but *not* by any choice of teachers. They are
> the unfortunate victims of a shifting curriculum determined by (in
> W.A. at least) a Curriculum Council which is directed by the
> Department of Education and therefore implementing the wishes of its
> masters of the day.
>
> Kids these days rock up to start school without values, without
> respect for any elders or authority figures (including their own
> parents), generally without any decent hygiene training, and often
> with attitude already showing.
>
> In my younger days, if you stepped out of line in the street, Mr Plod
> would as likely as not drag you home by the ear and hand you to your
> parents for discipline. Dr Spock and all the left-leaning do-gooders
> say if you smack your child you are guilty of child abuse. Discipline
> gone. Respect for elders gone.
>
> In school, many a time I experienced a teacher throwing a duster at an
> unruly student, smacking one behind the ear or whacking him with a
> ruler. Discipline of that type is regrettabley long gone and the most
> the teacher can do nowadays is send the kid to the principal.

IMO some of that is the fault of teachers who went too far, there is a
lot difference between discipline and the brutality that was dished out
by some of them, some enjoyed beating up kids so no wonder it was
eventually banned.

That is
> useless, as the kids tell their parents porkies and the parents -
> believing their little darlings - bear down on the principal who caves
> in and takes it out on the teacher.
>
> The system is rooted. But all the Gonski reports in the world won't
> change it. Performance pay for teachers won't change it. You can't
> polish a turd, but that's what some expect our school system to do
> with the material they are sent. Until the kids arriving at schools
> have values/respect/discipline already drilled into them at home, the
> school sysytem will remain rooted. The parents are the ones that must
> start that process. You can't build a tower on a foundation of shit.
> The teachers only get them for about 6 hours a day. </rant>
>

Agree there is a percentage of kids who are a problem but you seem to be
suggesting that all kids are bad and that is just wrong, there are
plenty of well mannered well behaved kids around, people here complain
about the way other kids behave yet they think their own kids are angels.



Daryl

[Blue Heeler]

On 18/04/2013 4:25 PM, John McKenzie wrote:

> here's the problem as I see it - you are both right, and what that means
> is the current generation of parents are a byproduct of both
> sub-standard education at school and at home, and as such they are
> (relatively) unable to contribute the same level (even if they were
> motivated to do so, which is debatable) of supplementary home education.

sadly i agree with you.

>
> you wanna try sitting in on negotiations with the fucken CFMEU :)
>

Once, a very long time ago, I worked for the federated Miscellaneous
Workers Union, a bunch of rabid ratbags that would have made Doug
Cameron look like an arch conservative free marketeer.

[D Walford]

On 18/04/2013 4:25 PM, John McKenzie wrote:

I don't disagree that there are issues but you and others seem to be
suggesting that what is being said applies to all which is ridiculous,
we shouldn't condemn a whole generation because a small percentage of
parents are useless.

>
> I knew how to do various mathematical processes before I was in grade 1.
> Then I had to 'suffer' through the introductory (slower and more
> painful, with no advantage) methods that other students were taught.
>
> Even now at work, people are straight on their phone to do any
> calculation you might imagine. I typically have the answer before they
> can select the calculator function from their phone.....

So what's more important, speed or obtaining the correct answer, if both
methods provide the correct answer what is the problem?
Just because a person isn't fast at mental arithmetic doesn't mean they
are stupid.

>
>>
>> Final comment - you reckon teachers have a problem. I've been
>> interviewing Gen X law grads for the last week, the vast majority can't
>> spell, can't speak and can't think. They also seem to think that
>> $70~$80k is a good starting salary for someone who in the normal course
>> of things will not even begin to cover their salary for a year or so and
>> whose need for constant supervision costs the senior lawyers valuable
>> time that they could otherwise be charging for.
>>
>
> you wanna try sitting in on negotiations with the fucken CFMEU :)
>
>
>

LOL.
Reminds of when I once went to deliver a load to a unionised parcel
depot in West Melb a long time ago, 2 heavies came up to me and asked if
I was in the union, I said "do you think I would be stupid enough to
come in here if I wasn't", the dumb cunts believed me:-)



Daryl

[Blue Heeler]

Maybe its different in vic, but the Union had F'all to do with
curriculum changes up this way.

This is a good discussion and deserves to be teased out, but my shoulder
is hurting like 40 bastards and until i get Dragon talking to
Thunderbird it's a bit hard to type long arguments one-handed.

A word for the wise about shoulder reconstruction surgery. Take drugs,
got to physios, naturalists, even fucken faith healers and sing happy
clapping tunes. but don't let the bastards cut you.

Actually that's probably not true, but jeezuz, it hurts.......On the
plus side I have a surgeon who has a very relaxed attitude to
prescribing narcotics so its only bad when I bother to follow the
instructions on the packets - his view is "if it hurts take something".
Problem is i can be pain free and a zombie, or (relatively) clear headed
and in pain.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 11:10 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:

> Conventional wireless internet is quite possibly operating near the
> limit of its signal to noise ratio. With a fixed directional antenna on
> the roof, this shouldn't be an issue.

So they claim. I'll believe it when I see it.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 11:46 AM, who where wrote:

> The unions are now pushing the Gonski report but for the wrong reason.
> They see it that if you pour megabucks into the education system, some
> will end up in the teachers' pockets. The teachers union as such are
> as short sighted and self-centred as any I have ever seen.

There's been a long running teacher's pay dispute in Victoria that's
only just been resolved. Senior teachers will now be on a hundred grand
a year. I'm not kidding :)

Anyway, that wasn't my point. What I was going to say was that the union
was behind it obviously, and they ran a few anti government adds where
they claimed that better pay meant better teachers and that kids were
missing out.

For the life of me I couldn't understand how giving a teacher a pay rise
suddenly made them a better teacher, but apparently the teacher's union
thinks so.

> No they aren't the problem. They are hamstrung. They can't have
> dunderheads kept down. They can't apply discipline. The available
> measures are as uselss as a slap on the wrist with a limp tram ticket,
> and even that would risk dismissal and/or a lawsuit.

Fair point. I've probably directed too much of the blame for where we're
at directly at the teachers themselves, but they're still complicit in
my view along with the education department and the teacher's union.

> I'm all for the system getting back to the way it used to be. But the
> chances of that are nil, and teaching no longer attracts the dedicated
> types that you and I experienced. It won't either as long as they are
> required to polish turds with one hand tied behind their back. Money
> won't change that.

Agreed. There needs to be an overhaul in *so* many areas and simply
throwing money at it won't do jack shit in my opinion.




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 4:25 PM, John McKenzie wrote:

> you wanna try sitting in on negotiations with the fucken CFMEU :)

Lol :)



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 8:32 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:

> Once, a very long time ago, I worked for the federated Miscellaneous
> Workers Union, a bunch of rabid ratbags that would have made Doug
> Cameron look like an arch conservative free marketeer.

That's pretty much unionists to a T, isn't it?

They're all red rag commo's who want nothing other than to break the
boss, and when they finally get their way and the company goes broke and
they loose their jobs they *celebrate* their victory.

And most of these people make up a fair portion of the Labor party
membership :)


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

Its not difficult to work out how people get addicted, I've only had a
couple of doses of morphine and its amazing, about 20yrs ago I had a
nasty accident with a lawnmower and almost completely severed two
fingers on my right hand at the first joint, one dose of morphine and I
didn't give a fuck.
Good luck with the shoulder, missus had surgery on hers a few years ago
and it wasn't fun.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 1:00 PM, F Murtz wrote:

> I have a sugestion,does your phone get 3g? it would make my sugestion
> work better
> Whilever telstra can get more money for your wireless why would they
> connect you to something cheaper,either threaten to or actually cancell
> your account unless they give you the same commection as your neighbors.
> If you can get 3g you could tell them that you were going to use the
> opposition with 3g wi fi

My phone gets 3G and my wireless internet also works on that band.

Here's the rub though. Nothing else works in my area, and I mean
*nothing*. I've tried mobile phones from Optus and Vodaphone, and I've
tried pre-paid wireless internet from Dodo, Optus, Vodaphone and Iprimus
and the only one that you could call "working" was Dodo's but it was so
unreliable it made Tesltra's heap of shit service look good.

I'm in a black hole area where nothing happens unless Telstra's doing
it, and walking away from them will only make my problems worse.





--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

Especially if it relies on transmission from a mobile phone tower and I
don't recall seeing one anywhere near your place.
I checked a tower location map and it appears your nearest tower is
approx 3.5km north and at a higher elevation than your place.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 8:39 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:

> Maybe its different in vic, but the Union had F'all to do with
> curriculum changes up this way.

It's probably unfair to blame it all on the union, but it's been
progressive, and to a degree self effacing. The union is the department
of Education's biggest client, and the department largely acts in their
interests. The union, for their part (and like any other union)
supposedly acts in the interests of their members but in reality acts in
their own by continually demonstrating how "necessary" they are. None of
which has fuck all to do with what's best for educating *children*.

I think the department, the teacher's union and the teachers themselves
are all complicate, but if I had to lay most of the blame at the feet of
any one group it'd be the union.

> This is a good discussion and deserves to be teased out, but my shoulder
> is hurting like 40 bastards and until i get Dragon talking to
> Thunderbird it's a bit hard to type long arguments one-handed.
>
> A word for the wise about shoulder reconstruction surgery. Take drugs,
> got to physios, naturalists, even fucken faith healers and sing happy
> clapping tunes. but don't let the bastards cut you.

I've been under the knife for corrective this or that a number of times
and you have my sincere sympathies. I regret every single surgery I've
ever had *apart* from having my gall bladder out a few weeks ago.

That was better than sex :)

> Actually that's probably not true, but jeezuz, it hurts.......On the
> plus side I have a surgeon who has a very relaxed attitude to
> prescribing narcotics so its only bad when I bother to follow the
> instructions on the packets - his view is "if it hurts take something".
> Problem is i can be pain free and a zombie, or (relatively) clear headed
> and in pain.

I know that feeling. Panadiene Forte became my best friend. Trouble is
that it's very easy to become your best friend and can stay around for a
long time if you're not careful. For me it was around 2 years before I
turfed the lot and went "cold turkey".



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 9:38 PM, D Walford wrote:

> Especially if it relies on transmission from a mobile phone tower and I
> don't recall seeing one anywhere near your place.
> I checked a tower location map and it appears your nearest tower is
> approx 3.5km north and at a higher elevation than your place.

There's one up on the hill in the cutting right near the Hopetoun Park
turn-off, and that's apparently my one.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

On 18/04/2013 9:12 PM, Noddy wrote:
> On 18/04/13 11:46 AM, who where wrote:
>
>> The unions are now pushing the Gonski report but for the wrong reason.
>> They see it that if you pour megabucks into the education system, some
>> will end up in the teachers' pockets. The teachers union as such are
>> as short sighted and self-centred as any I have ever seen.
>
> There's been a long running teacher's pay dispute in Victoria that's
> only just been resolved. Senior teachers will now be on a hundred grand
> a year. I'm not kidding :)

Why do you think that that is excessive, considering how much effort and
experience needed to be classed as a senior teacher it doesn't seem
excessive to me, other people who do much less valuable work get paid a
lot more.
Son's friend works in marketing and she gets paid $150k pa which seems
excessive to me, other sons mate is still a relatively junior civil
engineer and he's on $100k, he's only 27, my well educated sister with
more than 35yrs teaching experience retired last year, she was on $80k pa.
A new teacher just out of uni gets paid about $50k pa

>
> Anyway, that wasn't my point. What I was going to say was that the union
> was behind it obviously, and they ran a few anti government adds where
> they claimed that better pay meant better teachers and that kids were
> missing out.
>
> For the life of me I couldn't understand how giving a teacher a pay rise
> suddenly made them a better teacher, but apparently the teacher's union
> thinks so.
>

Possibly because more pay will attract a better class of person to the
teaching profession?
Why would anyone want to be a teacher when they could drive a truck at a
mine site and be better paid.

>> No they aren't the problem. They are hamstrung. They can't have
>> dunderheads kept down. They can't apply discipline. The available
>> measures are as uselss as a slap on the wrist with a limp tram ticket,
>> and even that would risk dismissal and/or a lawsuit.
>
> Fair point. I've probably directed too much of the blame for where we're
> at directly at the teachers themselves, but they're still complicit in
> my view along with the education department and the teacher's union.

Don't forget that only about 50% of teachers are in the union.

>
>> I'm all for the system getting back to the way it used to be. But the
>> chances of that are nil, and teaching no longer attracts the dedicated
>> types that you and I experienced. It won't either as long as they are
>> required to polish turds with one hand tied behind their back. Money
>> won't change that.
>
> Agreed. There needs to be an overhaul in *so* many areas and simply
> throwing money at it won't do jack shit in my opinion.
>

Agree they seem to spend money on odd thing sometimes, at one of the
schools we clean they have more than 1400 students and everyone of them
including preps have an ipad supplied by the Govt, apparently its a
trial and if successful it might happen at every State school.
Even if they get them at a big discount they would still cost about $200
each which adds up to a huge amount of money.



Daryl

[D Walford]

None all that close which is probably the problem.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 10:14 PM, D Walford wrote:

> None all that close which is probably the problem.

I don't have a problem with signal strength. I have a problem with
congestion. Telstra is over-selling their network and there is more
people using it than there is bandwidth available to accommodate them.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 18/04/13 10:12 PM, D Walford wrote:

> Why do you think that that is excessive, considering how much effort and
> experience needed to be classed as a senior teacher it doesn't seem
> excessive to me, other people who do much less valuable work get paid a
> lot more.

Like who?

A hundred grand a year is 2 thousand bucks a week. That's a lot of money
in anyone's language.

> Possibly because more pay will attract a better class of person to the
> teaching profession?

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I think teaching is one of those professions
that people do because they *want* to, and the money is of lesser
importance. Nursing is another such career. People don't go into it
because the pay is attractive.

> Why would anyone want to be a teacher when they could drive a truck at a
> mine site and be better paid.

Well, as I said, it's about doing what you *want* to do. I couldn't
drive a truck on a mine site regardless of how much money it paid
because I'd find it as boring as batshit after 10 minutes.

I don't think paying more is going to attract a better class of person
wanting to be teachers, and it's certainly not going to make the current
crop of teachers any better.

> Don't forget that only about 50% of teachers are in the union.

Most in the public system are in the union. The recent one day stoppage
shut down almost every public school.

> Agree they seem to spend money on odd thing sometimes, at one of the
> schools we clean they have more than 1400 students and everyone of them
> including preps have an ipad supplied by the Govt, apparently its a
> trial and if successful it might happen at every State school.
> Even if they get them at a big discount they would still cost about $200
> each which adds up to a huge amount of money.

A waste of money in my opinion, as I don't see how it helps the kids.

In every such case I've seen the "tool" (be it a laptop or an Ipad)
becomes a substitute for something else, like writing with a pen and
paper for example, and the programs they use teach kids how to associate
but not *understand*. For example some maths tutoring programs will
teach kids a few shortcuts to solving equations, but the kids only learn
how to do the shortcut. Not understand how the mathematics actually works.

So what's the advantage of all this?

Well, it saves on pens and paper. It saves the teacher having to stand
at the blackboard (or should that be whiteboard if they have one) and
lead by example in doing the exercise for the whole class to see. It
saves the teacher having to grade 20 or so papers and getting an insight
into those kids that do well and those that don't and lastly it puts a
shitload of money into the bank accounts of those companies providing
the equipment.

As for the kids I guess they get to play with a new fangled toy, but
whether they benefit from the experience remains to be seen.




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:15:56 +1000, D Walford
<dwal...@internode.on.net> wrote:

>On 18/04/2013 11:28 AM, who where wrote:

>> Beg to differ.
>>
>> <rant> SWMBO is a primary school teacher (approaching retirement,
>> trained in the 90's)
>
>Must have done her training as a mature student, my younger sister just
>retired at 58 and she started her training in the 70's and later went
>back to uni to do additional training.

Yes she did. Our tin-lids were grown up enough that she chose to
return to the workforce.

(snip)

>>Over the last couple of decades (or more?) the 3 R's
>> have been the area that has made way for the added crap.
>
>True, there is only so much time in a day.
>

(more snip)

>> Kids these days rock up to start school without values, without
>> respect for any elders or authority figures (including their own
>> parents), generally without any decent hygiene training, and often
>> with attitude already showing.
>>
>> In my younger days, if you stepped out of line in the street, Mr Plod
>> would as likely as not drag you home by the ear and hand you to your
>> parents for discipline. Dr Spock and all the left-leaning do-gooders
>> say if you smack your child you are guilty of child abuse. Discipline
>> gone. Respect for elders gone.
>>
>> In school, many a time I experienced a teacher throwing a duster at an
>> unruly student, smacking one behind the ear or whacking him with a
>> ruler. Discipline of that type is regrettabley long gone and the most
>> the teacher can do nowadays is send the kid to the principal.
>
>IMO some of that is the fault of teachers who went too far, there is a
>lot difference between discipline and the brutality that was dished out
>by some of them, some enjoyed beating up kids so no wonder it was
>eventually banned.

I never experienced/witnessed anything that could be classified as
brutality from teachers. Everything I got ("six of the best" on more
than a couple of occasions, etc) was entirely deserved, and also
served as a salutary lesson for the other students.

>> The system is rooted. But all the Gonski reports in the world won't
>> change it. Performance pay for teachers won't change it. You can't
>> polish a turd, but that's what some expect our school system to do
>> with the material they are sent. Until the kids arriving at schools
>> have values/respect/discipline already drilled into them at home, the
>> school sysytem will remain rooted. The parents are the ones that must
>> start that process. You can't build a tower on a foundation of shit.
>> The teachers only get them for about 6 hours a day. </rant>
>>
>Agree there is a percentage of kids who are a problem but you seem to be
>suggesting that all kids are bad and that is just wrong, there are
>plenty of well mannered well behaved kids around, people here complain
>about the way other kids behave yet they think their own kids are angels.

Not suggesting that, but there are more than a fair share of kids
presenting with those problems, and it quickly becomes contagious in
the classroom.

Do "sit up straight", "elbows off the table", "keep your mouth shut
when you chew" and so on sound familiar? It's a fairly safe bet that
you don't find that level of "social skill and etiquette" training in
most homes nowadays.

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:39:48 +1000, Blue Heeler <nob...@here.com>
wrote:

>This is a good discussion and deserves to be teased out, but my shoulder
>is hurting like 40 bastards and until i get Dragon talking to
>Thunderbird it's a bit hard to type long arguments one-handed.
>
>A word for the wise about shoulder reconstruction surgery. Take drugs,
>got to physios, naturalists, even fucken faith healers and sing happy
>clapping tunes. but don't let the bastards cut you.
>
>Actually that's probably not true, but jeezuz, it hurts.......On the
>plus side I have a surgeon who has a very relaxed attitude to
>prescribing narcotics so its only bad when I bother to follow the
>instructions on the packets - his view is "if it hurts take something".
>Problem is i can be pain free and a zombie, or (relatively) clear headed
>and in pain.

Have had two arthroscopic ops on one knee and thankfully they went OK
although they couldn't completely fix the original damage.

Earlier this year I underwent a shoulder A/C joint reconstruction
which included grinding 10mm off the end of the collarbone. (The video
makes for gruesome viewing). Left hospital with boxes of oxycodone
and have thankfully only needed two or three. One son is a physio and
says they fetch a great price on the street. That same son has had
ligament shortening ops on both shoulder in the past few years.

When I see what is involved in a recon after a major tear, I figure
that's where you have been, and you have my sincere sympathy.

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:12:37 +1000, D Walford
<dwal...@internode.on.net> wrote:

>On 18/04/2013 9:12 PM, Noddy wrote:

>> For the life of me I couldn't understand how giving a teacher a pay rise
>> suddenly made them a better teacher, but apparently the teacher's union
>> thinks so.
>>
>Possibly because more pay will attract a better class of person to the
>teaching profession?

Doubt it. Does it work with politicians?

[who where]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:30:24 +1000, Sylvia Else

<syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

>On 18/04/2013 11:49 AM, who where wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:57:00 +1000, Sylvia Else
>> <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>>
>>> The fixed wireless service is not like ordinary wireless internet.
>>
>> Cite?
>>
>
>http://www.nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/fixed-wireless-factsheet.pdf

Note the repeated phrase "designed to ..." in the box on the left of
the pics on page 1. Wiggle words.

Long Term Evolution (LTE) is the technology but it doesn't assure
anything of the kind. ALL systems have finite bandwidth which must be
shared by all subscribers on that circuit. The only was to assure any
sort of bandwidth per user is to limit the number of users on a
system. Fortunately that IS doable if you have a dedicated carrier
system (or dedicated bandwidth on a shared/common system), size the
bandwidth according to the number of subs, and throttle the per-user
bandwidth so that equitable sharing is maintained. The bad news is
that is not the business model that any carriers use, and I don't
expect the NBN to be anything different.

Remember the Leyland P76? The ads used the phrase "anything but
ordinary". The reality was that - apart from a cavernous boot - the
car was very ordinary.

It would seem that the NBN's "fixed wireless service" is going to be
just like ordinary wireless internet.

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 10:34 AM, who where wrote:

> Doubt it. Does it work with politicians?

Does it work with anyone?

I imagine it might attract more people to the *money*, but then they're
not likely to be the types you'd want doing the job.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 12:35 AM, Noddy wrote:
> On 18/04/13 10:12 PM, D Walford wrote:
>
>> Why do you think that that is excessive, considering how much effort and
>> experience needed to be classed as a senior teacher it doesn't seem
>> excessive to me, other people who do much less valuable work get paid a
>> lot more.
>
> Like who?

I gave 2 examples, the engineer and the marketing person.

>
> A hundred grand a year is 2 thousand bucks a week. That's a lot of money
> in anyone's language.
>

Not these days, I think you said your missus gets paid that much and you
said that she is a media advisor which is hardly important, are you
saying that she should be paid a lot less?

>> Possibly because more pay will attract a better class of person to the
>> teaching profession?
>
> Perhaps, but I doubt it. I think teaching is one of those professions
> that people do because they *want* to, and the money is of lesser
> importance. Nursing is another such career. People don't go into it
> because the pay is attractive.
>
>> Why would anyone want to be a teacher when they could drive a truck at a
>> mine site and be better paid.
>
> Well, as I said, it's about doing what you *want* to do. I couldn't
> drive a truck on a mine site regardless of how much money it paid
> because I'd find it as boring as batshit after 10 minutes.
>
> I don't think paying more is going to attract a better class of person
> wanting to be teachers, and it's certainly not going to make the current
> crop of teachers any better.
>
>> Don't forget that only about 50% of teachers are in the union.
>
> Most in the public system are in the union.

Wrong less than half.

The recent one day stoppage
> shut down almost every public school.

Because with half the teachers away a school can't run normally, at some
schools its most teachers, at others its very few.
Union action has a big effect but that doesn't mean that all teachers
are members.

>
>> Agree they seem to spend money on odd thing sometimes, at one of the
>> schools we clean they have more than 1400 students and everyone of them
>> including preps have an ipad supplied by the Govt, apparently its a
>> trial and if successful it might happen at every State school.
>> Even if they get them at a big discount they would still cost about $200
>> each which adds up to a huge amount of money.
>
> A waste of money in my opinion, as I don't see how it helps the kids.
>

Agree, the money could be better spent elsewhere.

> In every such case I've seen the "tool" (be it a laptop or an Ipad)
> becomes a substitute for something else, like writing with a pen and
> paper for example, and the programs they use teach kids how to associate
> but not *understand*. For example some maths tutoring programs will
> teach kids a few shortcuts to solving equations, but the kids only learn
> how to do the shortcut. Not understand how the mathematics actually works.
>
> So what's the advantage of all this?
>
> Well, it saves on pens and paper. It saves the teacher having to stand
> at the blackboard (or should that be whiteboard if they have one) and
> lead by example in doing the exercise for the whole class to see. It
> saves the teacher having to grade 20 or so papers and getting an insight
> into those kids that do well and those that don't and lastly it puts a
> shitload of money into the bank accounts of those companies providing
> the equipment.

Don't know whose comments those above are but they aren't mine.

>
> As for the kids I guess they get to play with a new fangled toy, but
> whether they benefit from the experience remains to be seen.
>

I was discussing the use of iPads with a teacher recently and she
disagreed with them being used especially for reading but she has no
choice in the matter, its dept policy so she has to do as she is told.



Daryl

[D Walford]

I have on more than one occasion.
Strange though that standards are stricter now than back then, things we
got away with in the 60's would not be tolerated now, my high school
allowed yr 11 & 12 students to smoke at school and we had our own indoor
smoking room.
Another kid and I got into trouble in primary school for putting a
drawing pin on another kids chair which he sat on, these days we would
be expelled but back then the teachers initial reaction was to laugh at
the crying kid and tell him off for crying like a girl.

>>> The system is rooted. But all the Gonski reports in the world won't
>>> change it. Performance pay for teachers won't change it. You can't
>>> polish a turd, but that's what some expect our school system to do
>>> with the material they are sent. Until the kids arriving at schools
>>> have values/respect/discipline already drilled into them at home, the
>>> school sysytem will remain rooted. The parents are the ones that must
>>> start that process. You can't build a tower on a foundation of shit.
>>> The teachers only get them for about 6 hours a day. </rant>
>>>
>> Agree there is a percentage of kids who are a problem but you seem to be
>> suggesting that all kids are bad and that is just wrong, there are
>> plenty of well mannered well behaved kids around, people here complain
>> about the way other kids behave yet they think their own kids are angels.
>
> Not suggesting that, but there are more than a fair share of kids
> presenting with those problems, and it quickly becomes contagious in
> the classroom.

Teachers tell me there is an increasing number of kids from single
parent families and "broken homes" and 9 times out of 10 they are the
ones causing the problems in the classroom.

>
> Do "sit up straight", "elbows off the table", "keep your mouth shut
> when you chew" and so on sound familiar? It's a fairly safe bet that
> you don't find that level of "social skill and etiquette" training in
> most homes nowadays.
>

I disagree with "most", I might agree with "a lot" but plenty of parents
are doing a good job, I bet you and everyone else here including myself
would claim to be a good parent.



Daryl

[D Walford]

Politicians aren't well paid so how would we know, many take a pay cut
to go into politics, even the PM is paid a fraction of what some senior
executives get paid.
What is absurd is the article in this mornings paper about the retiring
BHP boss who could possibly get hundreds of millions of dollars
severance pay.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 10:59 AM, D Walford wrote:

> I gave 2 examples, the engineer and the marketing person.

Oh, okay. I didn't see them as either earning significantly more or
doing less valuable work. If you'd have said the local Mayor or the
Prime Minister then I would have agreed with you.

> Not these days,

You must be doing pretty well :)

> I think you said your missus gets paid that much and you
> said that she is a media advisor which is hardly important, are you
> saying that she should be paid a lot less?

The "importance" of a particular job is relative. What my wife does
isn't important to you or me, but it is to the people she works for.
I wasn't making any inference to the "importance" (or lack of it as the
case may be) of the job, and in fact what people do makes no difference
to me. The head of BHP is on a 45 million buck handshake deal. Do you
think he's "important" enough to have earned that?

I was simply making the point under the new pay deal teachers will be
earning pretty good money, and were *already* paid a reasonable wage in
my opinion. Not excessively high but not bread line either. They're just
doing an average day-to-day job like everyone else and don't deserve to
be rewarded as if they're colonising Mars or curing cancer.

> Don't know whose comments those above are but they aren't mine.

No, they were mine :)

> I was discussing the use of iPads with a teacher recently and she
> disagreed with them being used especially for reading but she has no
> choice in the matter, its dept policy so she has to do as she is told.

If the teachers themselves are so concerned about the way the curriculum
is organised then perhaps they could put aside thoughts of increased pay
rates for ten minutes and lobby the department of education for what
they think would be best for the *students*.

Jeez, that'd be a first :)





--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[F Murtz]

Well you have a problem because is not going to want to forgo the higher
money rate to give you a better service and get less money.
Have you tried the ombudsman? they fixed some problems I had with
telstra.explain how someone further along the line gets copper service
that works.

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 11:24 AM, D Walford wrote:

> Politicians aren't well paid so how would we know, many take a pay cut
> to go into politics, even the PM is paid a fraction of what some senior
> executives get paid.

She gets paid something like 400 grand a year thanks to the big fat
payrise she recently gave herself, and I don't care what side of the
railroad tracks you come from that is *far* from being short changed.

What senior executives get paid is irrelevant. She's not out there in
those roles (and if she was she wouldn't last 10 minutes :)











--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 11:35 AM, F Murtz wrote:

> Well you have a problem because is not going to want to forgo the higher
> money rate to give you a better service and get less money.
> Have you tried the ombudsman? they fixed some problems I had with
> telstra.explain how someone further along the line gets copper service
> that works.

I have an open dispute with both Telstra and the Ombudsman as we speak.
It's being going on since October "officially" (which is when I got the
Ombudsman involved. Prior to that it was just Telstra dicking around)
and to date there has been *nothing* in the way of any useful information.

Neither Telstra nor the Ombudsman's office can explain why it is that
someone who is *further* beyond the normal acceptable distance limit of
the exchange can have access to and be provided with a working ADSL
connection while I can't, and nor does the Ombudsman's office have the
jurisdiction to order Telstra to provide me with the same service
they've provided to the guy across the street.




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[F Murtz]

The best behaved kids I meet are asian kids from snobby upper class suburbs.

[F Murtz]

Maybe the next step may be find a polititian and get it mentioned in
parliament or better still try for talkback or tv.
adverse publicity sometimes works.

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 12:31 PM, F Murtz wrote:

> Maybe the next step may be find a polititian and get it mentioned in
> parliament or better still try for talkback or tv.
> adverse publicity sometimes works.

I have thought about that, and it generally does work if there's enough
of an interest, but I don't know if there would be in this case. I can
try, but I'm not holding my breath.

As it happens I just got off the phone from the Ombudsman's office after
checking on the "progress" of my case, and was told that they expect it
will still be another 12 weeks before an investigation is started.

I'm in the queue, and have been since late last year.....

--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 11:33 AM, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/04/13 10:59 AM, D Walford wrote:
>
>> I gave 2 examples, the engineer and the marketing person.
>
> Oh, okay. I didn't see them as either earning significantly more or
> doing less valuable work. If you'd have said the local Mayor or the
> Prime Minister then I would have agreed with you.

It seem out of wack to me that a marketing person or a spin doctor gets
$100k plus and the average teacher gets paid between $55-80k, its only
"senior" teachers who get paid more and they don't make up the majority.

>
>> Not these days,
>
> You must be doing pretty well :)

I wish, as you know there are other advantages of being self employed, I
only pay myself and my wife about $40k each per year but we have a lot
of extras like cars and phones etc, if I totalled how many hours I work
per week I doubt it would be more than 20 so its not bad pay for what I do.

>
>> I think you said your missus gets paid that much and you
>> said that she is a media advisor which is hardly important, are you
>> saying that she should be paid a lot less?
>
> The "importance" of a particular job is relative. What my wife does
> isn't important to you or me, but it is to the people she works for.
> I wasn't making any inference to the "importance" (or lack of it as the
> case may be) of the job, and in fact what people do makes no difference
> to me. The head of BHP is on a 45 million buck handshake deal. Do you
> think he's "important" enough to have earned that?

No way anyone is worth that much.

>
> I was simply making the point under the new pay deal teachers will be
> earning pretty good money, and were *already* paid a reasonable wage in
> my opinion. Not excessively high but not bread line either. They're just
> doing an average day-to-day job like everyone else and don't deserve to
> be rewarded as if they're colonising Mars or curing cancer.
>
>> Don't know whose comments those above are but they aren't mine.
>
> No, they were mine :)
>
>> I was discussing the use of iPads with a teacher recently and she
>> disagreed with them being used especially for reading but she has no
>> choice in the matter, its dept policy so she has to do as she is told.
>
> If the teachers themselves are so concerned about the way the curriculum
> is organised then perhaps they could put aside thoughts of increased pay
> rates for ten minutes and lobby the department of education for what
> they think would be best for the *students*.
>
> Jeez, that'd be a first :)
>

Unions and principals might have some influence on education dept policy
but individual teachers would have every little, the union only
represents about half the teachers so the non union members have even
less say.
I suspect that the teachers pay dispute was settled for political
reasons, before it was settled very few teachers would have been voting
Liberal but I suspect that many might now change their mind so it was as
much a Liberal vote buying exercise as anything else much the same way
as Labor announcing the new funding for education.



Daryl

[D Walford]

I think it is relevant, the CEO of BHP gets paid at least 5 times what
the PM does plus a massive golden handshake that would make anything any
PM gets look like peanuts.
Its irrelevant who the PM is, considering their responsibilities the pay
isn't huge.
I wouldn't mind getting paid $400k+ pa but no way in hell would I want
that job for any amount of money.


Daryl

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 12:27 PM, F Murtz wrote:

>>
>> I disagree with "most", I might agree with "a lot" but plenty of parents
>> are doing a good job, I bet you and everyone else here including myself
>> would claim to be a good parent.
>>
>>
>>
>> Daryl
>>
> The best behaved kids I meet are asian kids from snobby upper class
> suburbs.

I've seen that too but there is also plenty of bad apples amongst them.



Daryl

[atec77]

You realise there are hidden benefits and a life time substantial
pension, which considering howbadly many of the pms perform is amazing pay

--









X-No-Archive: Yes

[Jason James]

I attended a boys high school, and the cane was used very liberally.
It was barbaric. You could get caned for bumping into a teacher on the
stairs,...one Math's master was called Himmler for his frequent habit
of caning kids first, asking questions later. A couple of former
school-mates ignored attempts at a re-union. "Fuck ém" was their
reply...I couldn't but agree. There were some very good teachers there
tho. My English teacher actually diverted from the curriculum to get
us interested in Shakespeare by telling us what is was like to live in
England during that time. Other teachers were just pigs,..dont get me
started :-)

Jason

Jason

[atec77]

Familiar scenario back when , our senior maths teacher had beem in
Changi , one teacher was way to free with the cane and was hated as
being an utter arrogant prick
One afternoon he took exception to a certain young bloke in class who
admittedly was wild but we liked him , anyway he was from his lips
physically dragged outside into the corridor to be caned whilst making a
stupid noise and spit flying from his lips , but the old bastard had
forgotten this 16 year old was leaving in a few days to start an
apprenticeship and got smacked several times for his trouble (
youngster was 6ft 100 kg) so he lost a week at school but it had the
desired effect
:)

--









X-No-Archive: Yes

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 4:59 PM, Jason James wrote:

Sounds similar to my experience, no wonder corporal punishment was
banned, the people who dished it out were worse than the offenders.



Daryl

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 2:53 PM, D Walford wrote:

> I think it is relevant, the CEO of BHP gets paid at least 5 times what
> the PM does plus a massive golden handshake that would make anything any
> PM gets look like peanuts.

I think it would only be relevant if they were doing the same job, but
the CEO of BHP isn't stupid enough to want to be a Prime Minister and
Gillard isn't smart enough to run a chook raffle.

> I wouldn't mind getting paid $400k+ pa but no way in hell would I want
> that job for any amount of money.

Most people with half a brain wouldn't.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 7:55 PM, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/04/13 2:53 PM, D Walford wrote:
>
>> I think it is relevant, the CEO of BHP gets paid at least 5 times what
>> the PM does plus a massive golden handshake that would make anything any
>> PM gets look like peanuts.
>
> I think it would only be relevant if they were doing the same job, but
> the CEO of BHP isn't stupid enough to want to be a Prime Minister and
> Gillard isn't smart enough to run a chook raffle.

Its got nothing to do with who is PM at any given time so your hatred of
Gillard is irrelevant, the PM, who ever that might be, deserves to be
well paid.

>
>> I wouldn't mind getting paid $400k+ pa but no way in hell would I want
>> that job for any amount of money.
>
> Most people with half a brain wouldn't.
>
>
>

Can't disagree with that and that is the problem.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 8:36 PM, D Walford wrote:

> Its got nothing to do with who is PM at any given time so your hatred of
> Gillard is irrelevant, the PM, who ever that might be, deserves to be
> well paid.

Why?


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

On 19/04/2013 8:59 PM, Noddy wrote:
> On 19/04/13 8:36 PM, D Walford wrote:
>
>> Its got nothing to do with who is PM at any given time so your hatred of
>> Gillard is irrelevant, the PM, who ever that might be, deserves to be
>> well paid.
>
> Why?
>
>

I can't believe anyone could ask that question, how much do you think
they should be paid?
If they were paid bugger all no one would do it.


Daryl

[Noddy]

On 19/04/13 9:07 PM, D Walford wrote:

> I can't believe anyone could ask that question, how much do you think
> they should be paid?

It was a genuinely serious question. What is it that they do that makes
you think they should be paid handsomely?

They're only accountable to the electorate every 4 years or so, they're
not responsible for the mess they create, they get treated like royalty
and provided with lodgings, personal protection and no end of aids and
advisors, They only have to do one term and get looked after for life
even if they make a complete pigs fucking breakfast of the job and
unless they entered politics fairly recently they get access to their
incredibly generous superannuation funds as soon as they leave their job.

Why do you think they deserve a more generous salary package than what
they currently get on top of all that?

> If they were paid bugger all no one would do it.

Rubbish. For the last 30 years or so the Prime Minister has been paid
*way* less than the average Lord Mayor and there's been no shortage of
people willing to do the job. I suspect there wouldn't be if it paid
nothing at all.






--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Blue Heeler]

On 18/04/2013 9:07 AM, XR8 Sprintless wrote:

>>> That and the fact that in 15 years every bit of fibre will start to need
>>> to be replaced...

>>
>> Yeah? Funny that, because as far as I know fibre in the ground is pretty
>> much forever unless it gets physically damaged. What makes you think
>> that it is subject to degradation over time?
>>
> Actually it isn't. It has a lifespan of between 15 to 60 years with 15 -
> 30 being real life experience.
>
> Corning quotes their cable as having a service lifespan of 20 years.
>
> http://csmedia.corning.com/CableSystems/%5CResource_Documents%5Cgeneric_specifications_rl%5CPGS109.pdf
>
>
> All sorts of things contribute to the limiting of it's lifespan,
> including the transmission power, any bends in the cable etc.
>
Interesting, because in this document
Http://www.corning.com/WorkArea/downloadasset.aspx?id=35209 they say
something entirely different. Indeed it makes the point that the oldest
"commercial" fiber in the world is only just scraping 30 years of age
and there is NO endemic replacement or decommissioning of fiber cables.

I think, with the greatest of respect, you have quoted the kind of
documents that are created by lawyers to give a manufacturer "wiggle
room" rather than an engineering one.

Bluntly, absent mechanical damage there is no reason that fiber cable
will not be operating 10,000 years from now.

What is regularly replaced and upgraded is the electronic "bits"
connected to the ends (and middles) of fiber cables, if for no other
reason that improvements in electronics now allows a 30 year old bit of
fiber to carry more data than the original commissioners of the cable
ever imagined in their wildest dreams.

[Blue Heeler]

On 18/04/2013 10:04 AM, Noddy wrote:

>
> That's an interesting comment in that it seems to place a high degree of
> confidence in the ability of the average parent, and given some of the
> people I meet out in the real world I wonder about the accuracy of that :)
>

Tangential issue, and probably one you don't want to get me started on,
but why is it every congenital moron's "right" to breed - and why the
fuck should I pay for them to do so?


For the longest time I have been of the opinion that reproduction should
require a licence or permit, the issuing of which is based on the
ability of the proposed parents to raise and care for their offspring
with not too much assistance from the public purse.


Of course some people, sadly handicapped by a lack of brains,
opportunity or motivation, should never breed - such unions result in
the likes of Jonz, creatures that are an impost on the rest of society
for the entirety of their brutish, worthless lives - and worst of all,
in the currently uncontrolled society, they breed, creating more eaters
who ultimately contribute nothing to society.

A two pronged process is required:-
Firstly, every female of child-bearing age should take long term
contraception unless they are the holder of a reproduction permit.

Secondly, every young person under 25 who is prepared to submit to
permanent sterilization could be given a cash grant of $100,000 (which
could perhaps be taken in kind, say a SS Commodore and an Evo(x).

Give it a generation or so and watch a lot of society's problems quietly
fade away.

[John_H]

Noddy wrote:
>
>They only have to do one term and get looked after for life
>even if they make a complete pigs fucking breakfast of the job and
>unless they entered politics fairly recently they get access to their
>incredibly generous superannuation funds as soon as they leave their job.

And that's only a part of it....
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/we-pay-nearly-6000week-john-howards-expenses/1645163/
or.... http://tinyurl.com/d7qm7lf

--
John H

[John McKenzie]

Noddy wrote:
>
> On 18/04/13 8:32 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
>
> > Once, a very long time ago, I worked for the federated Miscellaneous
> > Workers Union, a bunch of rabid ratbags that would have made Doug
> > Cameron look like an arch conservative free marketeer.
>
> That's pretty much unionists to a T, isn't it?
>
> They're all red rag commo's who want nothing other than to break the
> boss, and when they finally get their way and the company goes broke and
> they loose their jobs they *celebrate* their victory.

I think you are being too kind. They are capitalists of a criminal type
hiding under the guise of 'battling for the battlers' and are laughing
all the way to the bank. Let us not forget that the wharves (and the
painters and dockers union) got their 'foothold' when all the crims
wanted to avoid going to war so they go so called 'essential' jobs down
there just in case we got conscription happening. REcall also they then
took strike action (or attempted to) and were trying to prevent loading
of supply ships. Great fucken bunch - leave our brave armed forces short
of supplies whilst they got more money or better conditions.
>
> And most of these people make up a fair portion of the Labor party
> membership :)

They're a fucken joke. I've said this before. My biggest complaint
against Labor and unions in general is the fact that they _claim_ to be
for the worker but almost everything they do fucks things up for workers
long term. And they keep claiming this bullshit as various 'victories'

I told you about numbnuts, the new guy we got at work whose dad was a
cfmeu bigwig. This piece of shit lived in an apartment in sth yarra, all
paid for, and described himself as a battler. When he lost his licence,
daddy paid for an overseas trip until he was eligible to get it back,
just so he woudn't get bored. He never returned when we came back from
the new year break. Then when the boss called him he made out he was
looking after a sick grandmother in Sydney (which he could have at least
phoned them about if he had any integrity). then he magically arrived
the next work day. And proceeded to hide and (I kid you not) sleep all
day. I got back from doing my last run, and there was shit outside
everywhere (and this is the printing industry so the stuff would be
ratshit if the weather got to it) so I had to stay back and sort it all.
I found him asleep, woke him up in a gentle and caring way (in other
words with all the subtlety of a jelignite enema) went off about the
shit left outside. The cunt looked at his watch and said 'I knock off in
10 minutes, sorry' and left.

He then never showed up again. Finally a manager rang him, and he made
out he'd been in hospital all that time (again why not just phone and
tell em?) and then he said "I understand if you have to replace me". The
fucken piece of shit only took the job (clearly) because his dole would
be cut off without it. And if he didn't get a termination from the job,
he'd have to wait 12 weeks to get it re-instated, instead of instantly
if he got 'fired'.

I suggested to the boss that he take a different approach 'nah mate,
we're not going to abandon you if you've been sick in hospital, just
bring in a medical certificate when you are fit to work again, and all
is good'. Then the cunt would either have to come back to work (and
since it was bs, he'd have no certificate, so no pay for the time off)
and he couldn't just go straight on the dole. that'd really fuck him.
Sadly they didn't go for it.

I'm kinda relieved he's gone. I hope he flushes his head out at some
stage and gets some ethics. But had he stayed, I'd likely be on charges
by now, it was doing my head in. I don't care if some arsehole wants to
slack off, but when they do it in a way that everyone else has to do all
the work they avioded, it shits me. i put that to him once and he said
'but you want to do overtime' - and I said, 'yep but that stuff was work
you were meant to fucken do, so by me doing it I'm actually the one
earning your pay as well" and suggested I'd be ok with it if he was
willing to give me a couple of hundred out of his pay each week. He got
all emotional saying 'but that's my money' type of thing.
Un-fucken-believeable. Is it any wonder we are backsliding as a nation?

That's the kind of piece of shit that Labor loves to defend to teh ends
of the earth. Meanwhile someone like me, if I work insane hours (and
believe me I do) and manage to get enough squirrelled away and amass a
reasonable superannuation, well Labor will end up fucking me sideways
and making out I'm some 'fatcat' doing it easy.

If they were fair dinkum, they could come up with some sort of system
whereby people on lower hourly rates get some sort of tax break if they
do more than, say, 15 hours of overtime per week (for the record I have
often done do close to 30) - the overtime itself being taxed less, or
being deductable. perhaps double time only. Of course that wouldn't earn
them the useless slack turd votes they rely on. They try and hike new
taxes on industry that has (practically since Adam) been the realm of
the highest average wages for blue collar type work. And of course they
give themselves a pay rise whilst fucking the genuine hard workers over.
The sheer amount of the rise itself (let alone their new income in
total) is more than some people earn in a year.


--
John McKenzie

tos...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com ab...@earthlink.com
ab...@aol.com vice.pr...@whitehouse.gov pres...@whitehouse.gov
swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov admin@loopback ab...@iprimus.com.au
$USER@$HOST underground overground wombling free ro...@mailloop.com
$LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost -h1024@localhost ab...@msn.com
ab...@federalpolice.gov.au frau...@psinet.com ab...@asio.gov.au
$USER@localhost ab...@sprint.com ab...@fbi.gov ab...@cia.gov

[John McKenzie]

D Walford wrote:
>
>
> I don't disagree that there are issues but you and others seem to be
> suggesting that what is being said applies to all which is ridiculous,
> we shouldn't condemn a whole generation because a small percentage of
> parents are useless.

certainly not all, but there is a significant issue, and it is imo well
beyond any such milestone as 'a few bad apples' type of thing. And based
on the mechanism I described (which doesn't take much analysis to
notice/acknowledge) - it will increase in extent with each generation
unless something is done to reverse it.


> >
> > I knew how to do various mathematical processes before I was in grade 1.
> > Then I had to 'suffer' through the introductory (slower and more
> > painful, with no advantage) methods that other students were taught.
> >
> > Even now at work, people are straight on their phone to do any
> > calculation you might imagine. I typically have the answer before they
> > can select the calculator function from their phone.....
>
> So what's more important, speed or obtaining the correct answer, if both
> methods provide the correct answer what is the problem?
> Just because a person isn't fast at mental arithmetic doesn't mean they
> are stupid.

The speed isn't the issue per se. What I'm saying is that _surely_
without too much struggle practically anyone (provided they were taught
in the first place and did enough repetition to retain it) could do such
calculations in their head, and would likely actually benefit from it
long term (I'm not going to start grabbing medline papers about
altzheimers and brain utilisation/drills at any time soon, but there is
some correlation between the two) but they are 'by default' going to teh
calculator each and every time. Lazy brani rather than lack of ability
I'm discussing here.

Or if you were referring to primary school mathematical education
curriculum, I have no problem with the longer 'less efficient' methods,
if they actually contributed to the student's knowledge, understanding
or ability, but I'm saying, at least within the scope of what occured at
my primary school during that time, that there was no such benefit.

[Jason James]

I can still remember the numbness of my left hand and how it felt
swollen. They used to cane your lefthand first if you were only
getting 2 cuts,..the issue being they wanted you to be able to
continue writing with your right.
The next day, there were a series of small blood-blisters along the
line where the cane hit,..fucking pricks. I'm sure some were simply
sadists. Then they'd miss your hand, or catch you on the finger-
tips....

>   One afternoon he took exception to a certain young bloke in class who
> admittedly was wild but we liked him , anyway he was   from his lips
> physically dragged outside into the corridor to be caned whilst making a
> stupid noise and spit flying from his lips , but the old bastard had
> forgotten this 16 year old was leaving in a few days to start an
> apprenticeship and got smacked several times  for his trouble (
> youngster was 6ft 100 kg) so he lost a week at school but it had the
> desired effect
>   :)

Reversal of roles :-) One industrial-arts teacher completely lost it
when he tried to cane one really big kid. He taunted the teacher
saying "have another go". That teacher was moved out in a giggle suit.
Never saw him again.

Jason