Canyoning fatality due to storm in Empress Canyon, Blue Mountains
Anthony
waratah
news:1106603782.6...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Story here:
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12040599-1242,00.html
>
I don't understand why he would do that last jump un-assisted by ropes.
David Bennetts
"Anthony" <anth...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106603782.6...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Story here:
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12040599-1242,00.html
I see that this canyon is used by a commercial "adventure" firm, licensed by
the NPWS.
http://www.bushsports.com.au/canyoning2.html
It might now be opportune for them to reconsider the bit about undertaking
this activity in "rain, hail or shine".
The recent disaster in a Swiss canyon with a tour group comes to mind.
Whilst I believe that it is largely up to the judgment of individuals on
private walks and activities that they undertake, commercial interests have
a duty of care to the individuals from whom they are making a profit.
Regards
David Bennetts
David Springthorpe
<davibenn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>I see that this canyon is used by a commercial "adventure" firm, licensed by
>the NPWS.
>
>http://www.bushsports.com.au/canyoning2.html
>
>It might now be opportune for them to reconsider the bit about undertaking
>this activity in "rain, hail or shine".
Probably a valid point, but my understanding is that the fatality occurred on a
private trip (i.e. had nothing to do with any "commercial adventure firm".....
>The recent disaster in a Swiss canyon with a tour group comes to mind.
"Recent" ?
>Whilst I believe that it is largely up to the judgment of individuals on
>private walks and activities that they undertake, commercial interests have
>a duty of care to the individuals from whom they are making a profit.
No argument as above.....
DS
David Bennetts
"David Springthorpe" <david.spr...@idx.com.au> wrote in message
news:8b3bv0t4stg3ad8kt...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:33:08 +1100, "David Bennetts"
> <davibenn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >I see that this canyon is used by a commercial "adventure" firm, licensed
> >by
> >the NPWS.
> >
> >http://www.bushsports.com.au/canyoning2.html
> >
> >It might now be opportune for them to reconsider the bit about
> >undertaking
> >this activity in "rain, hail or shine".
> Probably a valid point, but my understanding is that the fatality occurred
> on a
> private trip (i.e. had nothing to do with any "commercial adventure
> firm".....
My point was that the death occurred in the same canyon used by this firm.
It would appear that there was a private trip involved when the fatality
occurred. I think it irresponsible to advertise canyoning in "rain, hail or
shine", as it creates the false impression that it is safe in all weathers.
> >The recent disaster in a Swiss canyon with a tour group comes to mind.
>
> "Recent" ?
I was surprised to find that it was now five years ago (1999).
Irrespective, that's still recent to some people.
> >Whilst I believe that it is largely up to the judgment of individuals on
> >private walks and activities that they undertake, commercial interests
> >have
> >a duty of care to the individuals from whom they are making a profit.
>
> No argument as above.....
>
> DS
Regards
David Bennetts
Terry Collins
> My point was that the death occurred in the same canyon used by this firm.
> It would appear that there was a private trip involved when the fatality
> occurred. I think it irresponsible to advertise canyoning in "rain, hail or
> shine", as it creates the false impression that it is safe in all weathers.
Are there alternate routes in this canyon?
Frankly, if you don't say "rain, hail or shine", you open yourself up to
endless arguments by people who change their mind at the last minute and
want a refund.
jamo
"David Bennetts" <davibenn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:p1hJd.58$7X3....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>
> >http://www.bushsports.com.au/canyoning2.html
>> >
>> >It might now be opportune for them to reconsider the bit about
>> >undertaking this activity in "rain, hail or shine".
>
>> Probably a valid point, but my understanding is that the fatality
>> occurred on a private trip (i.e. had nothing to do with any "commercial
>> adventure firm".....
>
> My point was that the death occurred in the same canyon used by this firm.
> It would appear that there was a private trip involved when the fatality
> occurred. I think it irresponsible to advertise canyoning in "rain, hail
> or shine", as it creates the false impression that it is safe in all
> weathers.
>
a bloody cheek mentioning them.
I did a lot of canyoning back in 1996/97 with Bushsports and all I can say
is if Konrad Lipmann is still in charge then I would never doubt their
skills.
The safety mechanisms in force were faultless and I think their people would
know that if you've begun the canyon and it starts to rain you have a Plan B
escape route.
There are so many cowboys out there and Bushsports aren't one of them, so
unless you can prove otherwise butt out.
Roy Jamieson
David Bennetts
> If Bushsports weren't involved in this expedition gone wrong then you've
> got
> a bloody cheek mentioning them.
> I did a lot of canyoning back in 1996/97 with Bushsports and all I can say
> is if Konrad Lipmann is still in charge then I would never doubt their
> skills.
> The safety mechanisms in force were faultless and I think their people
> would know that if you've begun the canyon and it starts to rain you have
> a Plan B escape route.
> There are so many cowboys out there and Bushsports aren't one of them, so
> unless you can prove otherwise butt out.
>
> Roy Jamieson
Thanks for the comments, you don't know who is currently in charge of
Bushsports. I didn't ever criticise their abilities, only their advertising
on the website, which could lead anyone contemplating a private venture to
the canyon to conclude it would be safe in all weathers. Bushsports is the
first site to come up on google when you search for Empress Canyon..
Interesting too that you say there are so many cowboys out there. Perhaps
they should be more tightly regulated.
Regards
David Bennetts
Terry Collins
> I didn't ever criticise their abilities, only their advertising
> on the website, which could lead anyone contemplating a private venture to
> the canyon to conclude it would be safe in all weathers.
Yep, we definitely need more laws to ensure people are safe and to
protect idiots from themselves. {:-)
David Bennetts
"Terry Collins" <ter...@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:41F6ECA9...@woa.com.au...
Bullshit Terry - that's not my view at all. If Roy is correct and there are
"so many cowboys" out there conducting canyoning "adventures" then they need
to be brought into line. Who says you need more laws, there are more than
enough already. I've no desire to constrain the enjoyment of individual
bushwalkers and outdoor adventurers, there's always an element of risk and
people should judge that for themselves. But I get back to my original
point and don't think it appropriate for a commercial organisation to
suggest canyoning is an all-weather activity.
David Bennetts
Terry Collins
> But I get back to my original
> point and don't think it appropriate for a commercial organisation to
> suggest canyoning is an all-weather activity.
Flipper........................... {:-)
Either you are a responsible person who can decide for themselves, or
your an idiot who should become road kill, which introduces my point
that "how many people are killed canyoning each year Vs how many people
are murdered on the roads each year?".
You pay your money and you take your chances. There are already too many
"certification" organisations out there now in outdoor adventure. Woops,
outdoor motelling as it has become. Remember constable plod doesn't
understand what sort of people actually like to walk throught the bush
and anyone who doesn't want to drive a 4WD, with bullbar, chain saw and
loaded esky into the bush must be some stinking dole-bludging feral, so
he will be quite happy to join with Mr "Law 'n Order" Politician to
enact more laws to prevent or restrict you from doing the things you
enjoy.
Protect idiots and they just breed like flies.
Andrew
<snip>
>which introduces my point
> that "how many people are killed canyoning each year
maybe less than half a dozen
>Vs how many people
> are murdered on the roads each year?".
maybe less than half a dozen
so what's your point..........
Andrew
Terry Collins
>
> <snip>
>
> >which introduces my point
> > that "how many people are killed canyoning each year
>
> maybe less than half a dozen
>
> >Vs how many people
> > are murdered on the roads each year?".
>
> maybe less than half a dozen
ROFL. So that is road-toll less drivers is it?
David Bennetts
David L. Jones
> Story here:
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12040599-1242,00.html
More details are available here:
http://www.accidentregister.org/canyon_accid00.htm
Although direct that link seems expired now. Here is the most
interesting extact:
Quote:
Charles Leyland, one of the canyoning party, said the gentle waters
gave little indication of the danger that was to come.
"When we started out on Saturday the weather was wet but the water in
the gorge calm," he told Albury's The Border Mail today.
"We'd been canyoning for about one hour and nearing the end of the
upper section of the walk when the water started to rise.
"We were caught on one side of the pool that sits above the Empress
Falls and needed to cross to the other side.
"The waters in the canyon went from still and gentle to a whirlpool
when the flood waters hit.
"Matthew made sure all of us were safely across the rising and
turbulent water before trying to get across himself.
"That's what he was like, he always put everyone else first."
Mr Leyland said as Matthew went to cross a massive amount of water hit
the pool. "It was a flash flood," he said.
"The pool went from being quite peaceful to very turbulent in
seconds".
Mr Leyland said the Donovan brothers were experienced canyoners. "I
would say that they were very experienced," he said. "We were the
novices."
Only hours before the flash flood people had been abseiling down under
the waterfall.
"There was a professional tour group about a half hour in front of us,"
he said.
"There was just no sign of what was about to happen."
Other members of the party included Mr Donovan's brothers James and
Kelly.
Dave :)