Only morons who cant do it for themselves need keep and eye out.

Just bought the 3rd edition, and it's a great book.  I'm no moron, and
it's a pity that people can get insure about infomation.  To all those
people who don't have a degree in canyoning, I would really recommend
this book!

The sentiments are questionable but the spelling is sublime!

d.lockwood <d.lockw...@cchs.usyd.edu.au> wrote in article
<34E76FBA.C91E7...@cchs.usyd.edu.au>...

If you are in favour of having our best wilderness area trashed then I
guess it may appeal to you. Have a good read of it - especially the parts
about the need for regular controlled burns and the leaving open of 4 WD
roads deep into the heart of the Colo/Hunter wilderness.

I am working on a few comments and corrections. As the book (or as the
author called it once "a pamphlet for scouts") contains so many errors
this has taken longer than expected. But you can read the start at a link
on my canyoning news page:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyoningnews.html

Unfortunately it is sad to go out in the bush and see really beautiful
canyons littered with bolts, rope hand rails etc. Tracks being formed to
and from them and all to often delicate rock formations broken by
careless feet.

I have to say that I agree with Dave Lockwood. Do't buy the book -
instead write to the author, Rick Jamison at P.O. Grose Vale 2753 and ask
him to withdraw it from sale.

Dave Noble (member of SUBW - but I don't have a degree in canyoning
either!)
--
----------------------------------
David Noble
email: dno...@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/

Glad someone took the bait.
If you people out there were any good you'd be able to get around
without guide books.
If you are starting out,then join a club and learn from experts.
Keep wilderness wild and maintain the experience for the kids who come
along in 50 years time and want to go exploring.
There was NO NEED for a 3rd edition.

Dave

Yes - this has been considered (when the second edition came out) - but it is
very expensive to do this. And it may cause the author to think that he needs
to reprint the book as he has a best seller on his hands.

This is not a guidebook in any sense. No map references etc are given.

Whilst it does contain a route guide section - this is a small part of the
book. There have, however been probelsm associated with overuse of the
Budawangs - eg no camping or fires in the Monolith Valley. Perhaps party due
to the effects of the book.

Yes - all would agree that this has been part of the blame for the
environmental damage caused by bushwalkers in say the western end of the
Arthur Range. But the author has not induded new areas in each edition. Eg
there are no route guides to the Prince of Wales, Spires, Jubilee, Snowy
Ranges etc. Also the author of this guide is now liasing with the Tassie
National Parks Service. As well, you may notice that the Tassie wilderness
photographers now don't put specific location captions on their photos. This
is to not encourage visitation to specific points.

They are not route guides. They don't have the location of canyons marked on
them.

As you can see - this is not true, they are different genres.

What will the situation be when the 4th edition of this book comes out?
Perhaps then - all the Blue Mts canyons will be faithfully recorded in great
detail and there will be nothing more for anybody to explore. I get the
impression from the book that the author has listed somewhere in the book
every creek that he personally knows is canyon or has heard is canyon
(whether this is true or not). The author needs to draw a line somewhere (eg
not to describe any canyons north of the Wolgan River) and stick to it.

Once again

Dave Noble (member SUBW)

--
----------------------------------
David Noble
email: dno...@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/

Remind me never to walk with Geoff (geoffatiwsdotcomdotau)

who has admitted he is a moron when it comes to canyoning.

And as for the book I am very disappointed with Jamieson's new book
:o(

But if outdoors shops had any ethics they wouldn't stock it!!!!  Let's
email all the outdoor shops expressing concern for this ANTI
wilderness, ANTI National Parks and The let's burn everything attitude
of the author.......

Dave

Indeed.The Tassie experience should have taught the author what would happen if a
guidewas written for the blue mts.The author appears to have little concern for
preserving what
is a potential world heritage area.

Indeed,perhaps these new editions are driven by money and fame.
They provide nothing beyond what was offered in the first edition.

Dave

I'm not a person normally given to posting to news groups but I feel
compelled to give my total support to David Lockwood's comments above, and
to add my own views.

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and any other editions of Rick Jamison's guide are
disgusting. No-one needed the guide book to discover the canyons in the
first place, so why is it needed now? Anyone who depends on a guide book
to get through a canyon shouldn't be out there in the first place.

Now that the book is published the canyons do not enjoy the protection
that their former isolation provided. For millions of years the canyons
have remained jewels among the wilderness, hidden from all except the few
privileged enough to have experienced their magic and beauty.
Unfortunately there are people who think that the canyon experience is not
a privilege but a right and that the book is the means by which that right
can be exercised by anybody. But it is the pressure of too many feet that
detracts from the very wilderness experience that canyons offer. With more
people come fixed ropes, bolts, tracks, excessive slings, tracks, trampled
vegetation, 4WD access, rubbish ... the list goes on. Thanks to guide
books such as this, the canyons cease to be domains of nature's beauty and
instead succumb to becoming yet another playground for humanity.

If you really want the wilderness experience of canyons, don't get the
guide book, but join a bushwalking club where experienced canyoners will
be glad to share the wilderness experience with you. But be quick, because
thanks to the guide book the canyons in their pristine state won't last.

Ashley Burke
Sydney University Bushwalkers (SUBW)
J U S T     DO     IT     !!!

I totally agree with the problems of this book. This is an abomination, and
it has gone too far. I can only speculate on the motivations of publishing the
book, but protecting the area it describes must be the furthest thoughts in
Mr Jamison's mind.

It is wrong to dismiss the 3rd edition as an insignificant threat. The
changes to the Wollemi canyons (new tracks, damage to veg, bolts etc) have
been in part due to word of mouth, but the RJ guide book has given people
the confidence (abeit somewhat falsely) and people without informal
networks information to visit any canyon within their ability. Even
members of clubs are provided with a wider selections of canyons to choose
from. Canyoning becomes more popular, disperse, and more easily
practiced by the inexperienced and unethical. The most accessible canyons
get hammered harder, and the access roads are pushed closer and closer
inwards. The NPWS, with its limited resources for a large area, further
loses control.

Letters of protest, complaints to book/camping suppliers and a personal
approach to the author is urgently required.

Tiwilla (GWW)

The NPWS doesn't always have the same objectives. For example, it is
they who maintain the signs and map that direct people from the car park
to Claustral Canyon - serving a similar purpose to Rick's book.

Probably fultile in the long run. If one bookshop stops stocking it, another
will start. If Rick withdraws the book, someone else will write another one
sooner or later.

..and therein lies the only long-term solution. Campaign as hard as
possible to get those access roads closed off and revegetated. Then
at least some places will remain remote and might continue to resemble
wilderness.

Regards,
Roger
--
--
-- Roger Browne, 6 Bambers Walk, Wesham, PR4 3DG, UK | Ph 01772-687525
-- Everything Eiffel: http://www.eiffel.demon.co.uk/ | +44-1772-687525

In aus.bushwalking, Ashley Burke wrote:

Sorry but I don't follow the logic that I shouldn't be there if I haven't
somehow received the information from some divine source. I've been canyoning
for 17 years and was last a member of a club when I was at school and I'm not
inclined to join one now just to be intitiated onto the select few who know
"where the canyons are".

   I started out with friends who knew canyons and then with the aid of Dave
Noble's guide in Wild and the right maps I started venturing out into other
canyons with only that information.  I bought Rick Jamiesons 2nd guide last year
and have found it useful in the same way as Dave's original - map references. If
there was any ideology thrown in I missed it. I have to admit appreciating an
idea of what rope length to take...the old 9mm I had to cut due to crampon
damage had a new lease of life.

  All the "new" canyons I've done where I obtained information from Rick's book
have had some significant signs of traffic.eg. Hole in the Wall was noticeable
for the number of cars and the well defined track. We were held up behind a
commercial party for a while but fair enough they were being very safe with
their clients. Despite the large numbers of cars they were the only group we saw
all day.

  I'd suggest that a significant amount of weekend canyoners don't venture too
far from the road head and aren't looking for dodgy abseils and difficult exits.
In which case this restricts their choice of canyon to a select few from either
Dave's or Rick's guides. If I'm taking beginners, that is where I'm heading.
That leaves a lot of territory for the other members of the bushwalking
fraternity to explore and discover if that is their inclination.

Andrew Grant.

You seem to have missed quite a bit.If the second was so useful there is no need for
a thirdother than to line the authors pockets with money.

Because of the book.

Dave

Well, well, well.... this is almost a rival to the great Trangia v MSR debates and
seems as polarised.
Why not take on the Climbing guides at the same time and Tyrone Powell's (spl?) "Walks"
etc. (Opps.. some of that did get and airing)
I won't go on and promote more books, but there are many that give info about access to
areas. This is a problem of our times.
Anyone who has read a 4WD mag will see a prime example in the "Trip Notes" feature
articles. People buy these pubications to get this data. Some even use it.
People write these guides for several reasons .. motives such money, fame, and sharing
have all been raised already.
But the real issue is that ..TOO MANY PEOPLE VISIT AREAS
(see my sig... it has been said before)
When we were a nation of a couple of million spead out a bit, we could shit where we
wanted to in the bush.. safe in the knowledge that it would be degraded into
nothingness before the next person got a chance to step in it.
The original inhabitants wern't numerous enough to impact the land... Don't give me
that crap about them "managing it"... they did what worked for them... if food is
getting a bit slow and you decide to move on... tourcing the area is a good way to get
a load of cooked take-aways.

So what I see is a conflict between the free go anywhere of years ago and the necessity
to now control access and the resulting impact of the growing masses. There seem to be
several models being tried, who knows which mix will survive. But I do know that it is
not acceptable to exclude all people from all areas.
The books are here to stay and people looking in books for information will find them.
(we can't burn the books .. dispite that SF story)
Clubs also have a long history and seem, at least in the general, likely to stay.  
It doesn't matter if its canoeing, climbing, fishing, walking, 4WD or even Canyons... a
proportion of the great unwashed masses of today enjoy being out in the bush doing
"things" and they like a few friends to share it with.

So friends.. I think you are suck with the Guides
Now lets discuss educating those that read them to lessen their impact or else lets
work out how to cut our population back to some much smaller figure..
But before you start on that one you had better know that not I, my family or any of my
friends will willingly step out of the picture, we enjoy life too much.

sne...@ozemail.com.au          or      steven.ne...@boral.com.au
..how much more wilderness destroyed before it is decided that we
have as much "progress" and population as the continent can
comfortably bear?               Paddy.Pallin - Never Really Lost.

There's no divine source, those who know where the canyons are are very human. The
only difference is that they either found out by word of mouth, or grabbed a map and
went out to discover the canyons themselves.

That's fair enough if you don't want to join a club - if you are already experienced
and can lead trips there is no reason why you can't do your own thing - but you
shouldn't need the guide book to do so. My appeal to people to join a club is aimed
at beginners who would be tempted to use the book to go out by themselves when to go
with a club is not only a safer approach, but provides contact with experienced
people from whom they can learn the necessary skills to go out by themselves in the
future, if that's what they want.

I think you have missed the point. my main complaint is that pristine canyons, or
ones which were very recently so (until these guides came out) are documented in the
3rd edition completely indisciminantly. The author doesn't seem to care that by
publishing details of these canyons, the result is increased traffic through them
and the ensuing degradation of their wilderness value. At least Dave Noble, in the
Wild magazine guide which you use, EXPLICITLY refrained from including wilderness
canyons and appealed to other guide book writers to follow suit. P. Jamieson has
obviously failed to respond to this appeal, probably the financial temptation was
too great.

I think you've defeated your own argument here. The track, commercial parties etc
are there because the canyon is well known. The fact that you have ventured to these
canyons only because of them being published in the guide books is proof of this.

There are a couple of things which cause canyons to become well known. (1) Ease of
access, (2) Word of mouth and (3), yes, CANYON GUIDES !! You would have to agree
that publishing a guide book greatly accelerates the rate at which the word gets
around, and results in more people going there.

It is not a selfish shroud of secrecy that I want to envelope canyons in. It is a
simple appeal to common sense. There is only a certain amount of traffic that a
canyon can sustain before its wilderness value is degrated. Publishing guide books
accelerates this degradation. The evidence for this is overwhelming. Look at the
Arthur Range in Tasmania before / after John Chapman wrote his guide book as just
one example.

--
Ashley Burke
Sydney University Bushwalkers
JUST DO IT !!

In following this general thread one can't help but get the impression
that every group wants to protect the canyons, as long as they can still
get access.

It goes like this…

Call it "Level 0". Pristine untouched wilderness.

Level 1. Dedicated individuals. Believe they should have access to the
canyons since they are "responsible", are a small group and so have less
impact than the animals, leave no trace of their presence, help increase
the "scientific knowledge" of the area so that it might be protected,
and only pass on information about the canyons to a small select number
of people.

However, for the protection of the canyons, access by clubs, commercial
operators and the general public should be restricted

Level 2. Clubs. Believe they should have access to the canyons since
they "responsible", are only small groups, use minimal impact
techniques, do not visit the canyons on a regular basis, belong to
Confederation and so have insurance and S&R facilities, and help promote
awareness of wilderness values to their members.

However, for the protection of the canyons, access by commercial
operators and the general public should be restricted.

Level 3. Commercial operators. Believe that they should have access to
the canyons since they are "responsible", provide jobs, have an industry
code of ethics (voluntary!), help "maintain" the canyons by the addition
of a few small "safety features", help fund the "industry", and provide
access for people who would otherwise have no chance of visiting these
magnificent places.

However, for the protection of the canyons access by the general public
should be restricted.

Level 4. General public. Are confused when presented with the
proposition that if it's OK for individuals, clubs and commercial
operators to visit these canyons, that they should be kept out!

So they want full (read 4WD) access to the area as well!  And, as
taxpayers, they expect the NPWS & the Government to provide it.

I don't have the magic answer to the above dilemma, but I think the
problem is bigger than just one book. If we were honest, we would admit
that we are all part of the problem.

I am at level 2 and, with great reluctance, must confess that I crept
into an outdoors store and spent $10 purchasing THE book. The old Fred
Nile effect. By the way, it's got some really good info on some canyons
… :-)

Chris Miller
21/2/1998.
Email: chris...@ozemail.com.au

Really the toing and froing over this issue is becoming very personal, and I
might add, a tad boring.

Why doesn't every one take their bats and balls and go home for awhile (and
maybe even take a cold shower).

Have a great weekend (hopefully canyoning)

Roy (no relation to the Canyon Guide author)

Chris Miller  <chris...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

I'm somewhere around level 1.5 on your scale.  But I support bans on
camping in vulnerable areas (such as Monolith Valley) and even total
bans on access to really sensitive areas (I have no problems with not
having access to whatever valley it is that the Wollemi Pine survives in).

Diversity is a good thing.  I think Wilderness areas are great, but I
wouldn't want all National Parks classified as wilderness.  Roads are
damn useful, but most of the state is accessible by road already and I
don't want them _everywhere_.  And so forth.  Naturally there will be
arguments about the right mix...

Danny.

One must expect this when we are witnessing a modern tragedy.

Dave

Surely it should be possible to discuss a subject .. even one of such importance
as this, without resorting to a personal slanging match.

Dave, you are absolutely correct when you say we are witnessing a modern
tragedy.
To be frank the blasted guide should be banned, but this will not be possible to
achieve.
Perhaps a campaign should be launched to educate camping store employees.
The issue should also be taken up with environmental groups .. and believe me,
it will be.

Cheers

Roy (I repeat, not related to the guide author)

Surely it should be possible to discuss a subject .. even one of such importance
as this, without resorting to a personal slanging match.

Dave, you are absolutely correct when you say we are witnessing a modern
tragedy.
To be frank the blasted guide should be banned, but this will not be possible to
achieve.
Perhaps a campaign should be launched to educate camping store employees.
The issue should also be taken up with environmental groups .. and believe me,
it will be.

Cheers

Roy (I repeat, not related to the guide author)