SYD: bicycles on the Old Road
Zebee Johnstone
reading who rides a bicycle on the Old Road?
Reason I ask is that the Motor Cycle Council has heard disquieting rumours
about how some cyclists are planning to try and baulk motorcycles by
spreading wide as the bike approaches, and some motorcyclists plan to
kybosh this by riding between the cyclists and "scaring them by
swerving".
You can imagine what a bloody stupid idea it is on both sides....
So the MCC of NSW (www.mccofnsw.org.au), being interested in everyone's
road safety, and defnitely not wanting powered or unpowered two wheelers
going rubberside up, wants to talk to cyclists, recreational and training,
who use the Old Pacific Hwy and other popular motorcycle hooning roads.
So we can work with cyclists and educate cyclists about motorcycles and
motorcyclists about cycles. So we can share the road and not interfere
with each other's fun anymore than we have to.
What the MCC is after is finding out why cyclists behave as they do,
what effect motorcycles have, how they deal with it, what changes they
would like to see, what education they think motorcyclists need, what
changes they can make in their own behaviour, and what road safety ideas
they have for the road and other similar roads.
For example, both powered and unpowered two wheelers would probably
benefit from better road sweeping! And better maintainance of the
shoulder generally. IF the shoulder was usable for cyclists, then there's
more room for cyclists and motorcyclists in the same lane. If it's not
then the cyclist has to be further out and then the motorcyclist has
to go even further out. And motorcyclists don't like shit all over the
apex of left handers anymore than cyclists do...
Another idea that occurred is Bobbin Head Road. The surface is
disgusting now, but if it was resurfaced, would it be a preferable
training track for masochists, I mean road racers who train on hills,
than the Old Road? Motorised vehicles have to pay to enter the park,
cyclists don't. If it was resurfaced, would cyclists prefer it to the
Old Road seeing as it's motorcycle-free and mostly car-free?
I'd like to chat in person to cyclists who use the Old Road. I'm planning
to take a cruise there on a weekend to chat to the bods at Pie in
the Sky, but also track any training bunches and chat when they stop.
But be nice to arrange some talking so I'm not accused of stalking :)
Of course input from other riders is useful too. i
Why do you ride on the Old Road? Or other hilly twisty roads? Because
it's nearby? BEcause you need the work on hills? Because it's fun?
Because there's nowhere else without traffic lights? The view is good
and the hard work's good for you?
When you hear a vehicle coming up behind, can you tell it's a motorcycle
reliably?
If it is, what's your reaction to it? Does that change if it's a
straight or a corner, right hander or left hander?
Does it make a difference if you are just out for a ride, or seriously
in a training mindset?
When you are out on a twisty bit of road, do you like to ride in a
bunch (law or no law) or singlefile wheelsucking all the way? Do you
prefer to ride 2 abreast? How do you decide to pick a particular
configuration?
Do you find that when you are hammering and a motorcycle's coming
doing the same thing that you have to pull in and it disrupts you?
Or do you just figure "the one behind has to pass" and keep your line?
Do you usually get enough time to think about a reaction?
Do they pass too close? How close is too close? Have you been cut
off in a corner? Have you been sprayed with bluemetal as someone
apexes in front of you?
What good experiences have you had with motorcycles out for a fang?
What bad ones?
Who has had the patience to read this far?
Zebee
cfsmtb
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> Long shot, this being melb.bicycles and all, but is there anyone reading
> who rides a bicycle on the Old Road?
I heard that.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> Who has had the patience to read this far?
I did. Seriously though, have you posted this request out to other
cycling forums? Can forward it to the Syd CM list, BFA or Farkin if you
wish. For what it's worth I've recently subscribed to the netrider forum
as I maybe getting a moto in the future.
And a little birdy told me you were in the market for a 'bent? :D
--
cfsmtb
Andrew Price
Zebee Johnstone wrote -
>
> What the MCC is after is finding out why cyclists behave as they do,
> what effect motorcycles have, how they deal with it, what changes they
>
The old pacific hwy is the preferred route north after Hornsby for cyclists.
The alternative is the shoulder of the F3 and that's not much fun although I
have found it quicker on the couple of times I have tried it (riding up to
Cessnock and back). Boring noisy and full of crap on the shoulder.
In addition there is pretty frequently used time trial course up on Peats
Rdige Road near Calga used monthly by the ATTA folk and less frequently but
in greater numbers for State open cycling races and time trials.
In addition, Northern Sydney Cycling Club use an industrial road off the old
highway called Beaumont Rd as a criterium road race course most Sundays and
the bunchs that ride out of Turramurra Cycling would regard riding up to
Calga and back as their "block". All of that means that its a very popular
road for cyclists.
> I'd like to chat in person to cyclists who use the Old Road.
Best contact I can think of is Mark Rowling who owns Turramurra Cycling and
who indidentally races motorcycles - much loved by his cycling customers who
despair at his occasional off on the motor race tracks.
> When you are out on a twisty bit of road, do you like to ride in a
> bunch (law or no law) or singlefile wheelsucking all the way? Do you
> prefer to ride 2 abreast? How do you decide to pick a particular
> configuration?
For mine as an occasional user of the road I don't think the bunchs
generally behave any differently for motorcycles - and some of us do or have
ridden both so I would not assume hostility; mutual curiousity would be a
better description. Riding 2 side by side in a lane is lawful for cyclists
throughout Australia.
I have never seen a cycling bunch try to get agressive accross the road -
who do you think would win that confrontation in terms of mass and velocity?
The bunch will hold their lane and their lines and call motorcycles front or
back as they would a car.
Some links that may be useful to you -
and
http://www.turramurracyclery.com.au/
best, Andrew (who used to own a vfr 750)
Zebee Johnstone
cfsmtb <cfsmtb...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
>
> I did. Seriously though, have you posted this request out to other
> cycling forums? Can forward it to the Syd CM list, BFA or Farkin if you
> wish. For what it's worth I've recently subscribed to the netrider forum
> as I maybe getting a moto in the future.
Yes, if you like, although it would need to be clear I'm not
subscribed to them, so people would have to contact me directly.
>
> And a little birdy told me you were in the market for a 'bent? :D
*grin* I wasn't going to say anything till it was in my hot little
hands, but there's a Giro 20 on its way to me as we speak.
Well not quite, as the cranks are at GreenSpeed getting shortened, so
I won't see it till next weekend.
Then I get to work up to riding it from Campsie to North Sydney
without a) knackering myself so much I find reasons not to do it again
and b) without meeting immovable objects.
Zebee
Peter Signorini
"Zebee Johnstone" <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrne02sg4...@localhost.localdomain...
> Long shot, this being melb.bicycles and all, but is there anyone
> reading who rides a bicycle on the Old Road?
Well I ride in Melbourne, but I'd guess the sitiation in Sydney is pretty
much the same as on the Kinglake Rd or Reefton Spur on any Sunday.
<snip>
> When you hear a vehicle coming up behind, can you tell it's a motorcycle
> reliably?
Yes.
> If it is, what's your reaction to it? Does that change if it's a
> straight or a corner, right hander or left hander?
Usually ride predictably following my line. Usually not enough time to make
any changes anyhow.
> Does it make a difference if you are just out for a ride, or seriously
> in a training mindset?
No.
> When you are out on a twisty bit of road, do you like to ride in a
> bunch (law or no law) or singlefile wheelsucking all the way? Do you
> prefer to ride 2 abreast? How do you decide to pick a particular
> configuration?
Usually ride single file on winding roads, unless it is a quiet minor road.
Then with friends we might ride in a small 2 abreast bunch.
> Do you find that when you are hammering and a motorcycle's coming
> doing the same thing that you have to pull in and it disrupts you?
> Or do you just figure "the one behind has to pass" and keep your line?
Keep the line
> Do you usually get enough time to think about a reaction?
No
> Do they pass too close? How close is too close? Have you been cut
> off in a corner? Have you been sprayed with bluemetal as someone
> apexes in front of you?
When you get GT-wannabes careering past with less than a metre to spare, at
80-120kmh leaned over in the apex of a left hander, with a sudden cracking
roar of a race-tuned illegal exhaust, it trully sucks. I hurl volumes of
silent abuse, and thank God I never took up such a socially obnoxious
pursuit as motorbiking.
Get my drift?
> What good experiences have you had with motorcycles out for a fang?
None
Cheers
Peter
Random Data
> Another idea that occurred is Bobbin Head Road. The surface is
> disgusting now, but if it was resurfaced, would it be a preferable
> training track for masochists, I mean road racers who train on hills,
> than the Old Road?
Doubt it. The surface isn't that bad, except for a hundred metres or so on
the Turramurra side near the bottom. The big problem is it's only 4km on
the long side though, which isn't that much unless you're doing laps.
Going from gate to gate and return only comes out to about 20km, and
although it's a bit of a hill that's just not long enough for anything but
a quick blat - and I'm not even a roadie.
West Head would be a more attractive option if there was a cafe at the
end... After all, they're roadies, so it's about how cool you look at the
cafe, not about actual riding. <g,d&r>
> I'd like to chat in person to cyclists who use the Old Road.
Give Turramurra Cyclery a call. They'll be able to put you on to any
largish groups running up that way.
> Who has had the patience to read this far?
Nope, not me.
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
"We have the concentration span of 10 year old ADD children who have
just eaten a tube of toothpaste." Dr Chris
Random Data
>Farkin
Farkin? About road riding? Eeeep!
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
"There are some benefits to high blood pressure", Bob mused as another
mosquito exploded. -- unknown, Bulwer-Lytton entry
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:16:52 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>> Another idea that occurred is Bobbin Head Road. The surface is
>> disgusting now, but if it was resurfaced, would it be a preferable
>> training track for masochists, I mean road racers who train on hills,
>> than the Old Road?
>
> Doubt it. The surface isn't that bad, except for a hundred metres or so on
> the Turramurra side near the bottom. The big problem is it's only 4km on
> the long side though, which isn't that much unless you're doing laps.
> Going from gate to gate and return only comes out to about 20km, and
> although it's a bit of a hill that's just not long enough for anything but
> a quick blat - and I'm not even a roadie.
Roadies have short attention spans, remember.
> West Head would be a more attractive option if there was a cafe at the
> end... After all, they're roadies, so it's about how cool you look at the
> cafe, not about actual riding. <g,d&r>
I'll run with you :)
>> Who has had the patience to read this far?
>
> Nope, not me.
Me neither.
--
TimC
Can Jesus heat a microwave burrito so much he can't eat it?
-- Homer Simpson asking an incredibly intelligent question of Ned Flanders
Shane Stanley
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the Motor Cycle Council has heard disquieting rumours
> about how some cyclists are planning to try and baulk motorcycles by
> spreading wide as the bike approaches, and some motorcyclists plan to
> kybosh this by riding between the cyclists and "scaring them by
> swerving".
Sydney certainly sounds like *the* place to get around on two wheels at
present! What the hell? Something in the water?
>
> Why do you ride on the Old Road?
I don't, thankfully it seems.
> Or other hilly twisty roads? Because
> it's nearby? BEcause you need the work on hills? Because it's fun?
> Because there's nowhere else without traffic lights? The view is good
> and the hard work's good for you?
Most of the above.
>
> When you hear a vehicle coming up behind, can you tell it's a motorcycle
> reliably?
Yes.
>
> If it is, what's your reaction to it?
Relief that it's not a truck or ute.
> Does that change if it's a
> straight or a corner, right hander or left hander?
Not really.
>
> Does it make a difference if you are just out for a ride, or seriously
> in a training mindset?
No.
>
> When you are out on a twisty bit of road, do you like to ride in a
> bunch (law or no law) or singlefile wheelsucking all the way? Do you
> prefer to ride 2 abreast? How do you decide to pick a particular
> configuration?
It depends on the width of the road, whether we're taking it easy or
not, the state of the conversation.
>
> Do you find that when you are hammering and a motorcycle's coming
> doing the same thing that you have to pull in and it disrupts you?
> Or do you just figure "the one behind has to pass" and keep your line?
> Do you usually get enough time to think about a reaction?
I keep my line. I can't recall a passing motorcyclist ever showing any
sign of annoyance at this.
>
> Do they pass too close?
I can't recall that ever happening.
> Have you been cut off in a corner?
No.
>Have you been sprayed with bluemetal as someone apexes in front of you?
No, but most of the roads I'm on don't have loose metal. I'd be very
pissed off if it did happen, though.
>
> What good experiences have you had with motorcycles out for a fang?
> What bad ones?
They use the road and I use the road, and about the only time there's
any concern is when an oncoming motorcycle cuts a corner a bit too much.
>
> Who has had the patience to read this far?
Whew.
--
Shane Stanley
Gemma_k
> about how some cyclists are planning to try and baulk motorcycles by
> spreading wide as the bike approaches, and some motorcyclists plan to
> kybosh this by riding between the cyclists and "scaring them by
> swerving".
>
> You can imagine what a bloody stupid idea it is on both sides....
Zebee,
IMHO this highlights the need for both MC and cycling advocacy to finally
get together to 'sort a few things out'.
Given that both cyclists and motorcyclists are both marginalised minority
road users, who receive probably equal amounts of stereotyped flack for just
existing on the road (see Peter S's comments for example "thank God I never
took up such a socially obnoxious pursuit as motorbiking." - there's nothing
like tarring everyone with the same brush!! )
By 'sorting things out' I mean that many of the issues faced by both
cyclists and motorcyclists are the same, but they don't seem to realise it.
The benefits of each of these types of transport are remarkably similar (to
both the community and the individual). The types of crashes they are
involved in are very similar. "SMIDSY" (Sorry Mate I didn't See You) is
something only motorcyclists and cyclists understand. The cases they put to
governments are nearly identical.
So why can't cycling and motorcycling representative groups for the first
time in Australia be allies instead of opponents? Just understanding each
other's (very similar) points of view would be a nice start, instead of
taking the "holier than thou" stance..... Both of these road user groups are
seen as 'socially irresponsible' by the majority of tip-tops out there....
Gemm
(Divides time between a Wilier with Dura Ace and a Suzuki SV650)
percrime
>By 'sorting things out' I mean that many of the issues faced by both
>cyclists and motorcyclists are the same, but they don't seem to realise it
I do. You do. Zebee does. Chris does (Although she is 'only' a
prospective motorcyclist) . Kathy does. Eaun does Did the army teach
you to ride a motorcycle Euan? I think most of us subscribe to the
'two wheels good' theory.
Their are always #$%wits. When I was driving cabs I used to hate
getting 5 seaters. Out of any 5 male passengers one will be a total
#&(#^ Its some sort of rule. (Once the total tool was Ians brother
who didnt recognise me till I addressed him by name :) ) The extra
idiots are more stress than the extra fares are worth. Motorcyclists
and cyclists have their share of em. And one of the things about
@#$$wits is they tend not to see other peoples point of view.
Yeah I think presenting a common front is a great idea. Lets
Dave
suzyj
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> is there anyone
> reading who rides a bicycle on the Old Road?
>
Aye - I ride up the old road all the time.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
> the Motor Cycle Council has heard disquieting rumours
> about how some cyclists are planning to try and baulk motorcycles by
> spreading wide as the bike approaches, and some motorcyclists plan to
> kybosh this by riding between the cyclists and "scaring them by
> swerving".
>
News to me. Sounds like bloody foolish behaviour on both parts, I
reckon.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> Why do you ride on the Old Road? Or other hilly twisty roads?
> Because
> it's nearby? BEcause you need the work on hills? Because it's fun?
> Because there's nowhere else without traffic lights? The view is good
> and the hard work's good for you?
>
Much the same reasons when I'm riding my pushbike as when I used to
ride my motorbike. It's a nice road, nice scenery, relatively few cars
(on account of the F3), good hills, lots of good corners, yummy pie, and
a likeable bunch of regular users.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> When you hear a vehicle coming up behind, can you tell it's a
> motorcycle
> reliably?
>
Yes, you can tell motorcycles, but more importantly you can tell
*wanker* motorcyclists. You can usually hear the bad ones for miles.
The ones who don't make much noise usually pass safely, and are good to
live with. The ones making a huge racket won't change their line for
*anyone*. It's much the same when I ride a motorbike.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> If it is, what's your reaction to it? Does that change if it's a
> straight or a corner, right hander or left hander?
>
It changes if I'm on a descent or ascent. On a steep descent I tend to
ride much the same speed as the motorcyclists on my pushbike anyway, so
I just try to keep mainly to the left. They're happy enough to wait
until a straitish bit to pass.
On an ascent, I keep to the left, but not stupidly so.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> Does it make a difference if you are just out for a ride, or seriously
> in a training mindset?
>
Nope.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> When you are out on a twisty bit of road, do you like to ride in a
> bunch (law or no law) or singlefile wheelsucking all the way? Do you
> prefer to ride 2 abreast? How do you decide to pick a particular
> configuration?
>
Generally two abreast, except at the obvious pinch-points, where it's
single file.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> Do you find that when you are hammering and a motorcycle's coming
> doing the same thing that you have to pull in and it disrupts you?
> Or do you just figure "the one behind has to pass" and keep your line?
> Do you usually get enough time to think about a reaction?
>
Depends. Usually there's plenty of time - you don't have to give
another biker terribly much room anyway, as they can pass perfectly
safely without needing the whole lane.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> Do they pass too close? How close is too close? Have you been cut
> off in a corner? Have you been sprayed with bluemetal as someone
> apexes in front of you?
>
They almost always pass considerately. Bikers give you much more room
than do cagers. It's pretty rare to be buzzed by a biker, and you can
usually hear them coming for miles anyway.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> What good experiences have you had with motorcycles out for a fang?
> What bad ones?
>
Hey, bikers are the good guys. They usually take care passing, and
don't abuse push-bikers. It's the car drivers who cause the trouble.
The only exception to the rule are the very occasional 18 year old
temporary citizens, and they don't last long anyway.
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> Who has had the patience to read this far?
>
I do. :)
Cheers,
Suzy
--
suzyj
Zebee Johnstone
Gemma_k <gker...@remove.this.please.adam.com.au> wrote:
>
> So why can't cycling and motorcycling representative groups for the first
> time in Australia be allies instead of opponents? Just understanding each
I think it's not so much that groups are opponents, as that they don't
talk that much to each other.
And that not all cyclists and not all motorcyclists are members of
groups.
The MCC of NSW represents a lot of motorcyclists, but you can bet that
the vast majority of riders don't know about us, because they aren't
members of the clubs who make up the MCC.
I suspect a lot of the cyclists who use the Old Road and other
twisties aren't members of the cycle advocacy groups either.
The MCC will be talking to BNSW as well as to the racing clubs via
Turramurra Cyclery, and working with them as much as we can, because
when it comes to road surface and infrastructure, the more people the
more clout.
Zebee
cfsmtb
Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>
> The MCC of NSW represents a lot of motorcyclists, but you can bet that
> the vast majority of riders don't know about us, because they aren't
> members of the clubs who make up the MCC.
>
> I suspect a lot of the cyclists who use the Old Road and other
> twisties aren't members of the cycle advocacy groups either.
Another tact, have you considered putting up some DIY signage in the
area? ie: short, concise, laminated notices with, "if you're interested
in" + contact details ... blahblahblah.
--
cfsmtb
Parbs
>
> Sydney certainly sounds like *the* place to get around on two wheels at
> present! What the hell? Something in the water?
It's quicker than car
http://www.bicyclensw.org.au/images/suntel-060212-2.jpg
Parbs
Zebee Johnstone
cfsmtb <cfsmtb...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
> Another tact, have you considered putting up some DIY signage in the
> area? ie: short, concise, laminated notices with, "if you're interested
> in" + contact details ... blahblahblah.
GOod idea. If we don't seem to contact the regular users via
Turramurra and Pie in the Sky, then a sign at Pie and at Calga
Interchange or similar might work.
Zebee
Fractal
motor cyclists if they kept below the speed limit, which is I think 70 or
80, as its supposed to be a scenic drive not a freeway. 60 would be better
still. Cyclists dont have much of a choice of route out of Sydney, the F3 or
the old Pac Highway. The F3 is better grades and less climbing than the
old highway but there is/was a sign up on the F3 saying No Bikes over the
Moonie Bridge, which has no shoulders and is a huge speedway for trucks
trying to keep their revs up for the hills on either side and a history of
bad smashes on the bridge too, so cyclists are being directed to use the
old Pac highway. And a good ride it is too, scenic and quite a challenge to
get to Gosford say. Our group (Leichhardt BUG) used to do it once a year as
part of our calendar but most now say the motorbikes have made it too
unpleasant, because of the speed they do and never knowing when the next
bunch is coming past.
Same thing applies to Royal National Park south of Sydney. A beautiful
scenic road through shady forests, ideal for cycling, spoiled by
motorcyclists who blast through far in excess of the 80 speed limit, which
is too high anyway- should be 60. Never seen a police presence in the Park,
but do sometimes see a patrol car on the old Pac Highway. My cousin killed
himself near Moonie on the bends and I spent my youth fanging a Honda
between Sydney and Gosford, so I know the dangers and the attraction of
motor bike riding, just wish motor cyclists could stick to the F3 if they
want to push it, although parts of the F3 are limited to 90 because of the
incredible number of stupid crashes on it from speeding or incompetent
motorists.
bobm
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> getting 5 seaters. Out of any 5 male passengers one will be a total
> #&(#^ Its some sort of rule.
Oy! I resemble that remark! It's amazing how often we end up with a
group of 5, and then 4 seater cabs who actually accept us. We are
rarely tools :)
--
TimC
Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX.
Random Data
> I'll run with you :)
Sssh, or Tam will give us shit.
> Me neither.
Or me.
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
A man might spend his life peering at the private life of elementary
particles and then find he either knew who he was or where he was, but
not both. - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
Terry Collins
> Long shot, this being melb.bicycles and all, but is there anyone
> reading who rides a bicycle on the Old Road?
Years ago, but I'm on the wrong side of sydney now.
>
> Reason I ask is that the Motor Cycle Council has heard disquieting rumours
> about how some cyclists are planning to try and baulk motorcycles by
> spreading wide as the bike approaches, and some motorcyclists plan to
> kybosh this by riding between the cyclists and "scaring them by
> swerving".
What a load of bullshit. You should stop listening to rumours that crop
up around beer and definitely should stop helping them spread.
Seriously, don't worry about it till it happens, then call 000
immediately after the motorbike runs over them.
tony f
"Fractal" <ni...@icescream.com> wrote in message
news:DxtMf.16987$yK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Same thing applies to Royal National Park south of Sydney. A beautiful
> scenic road through shady forests, ideal for cycling, spoiled by
> motorcyclists who blast through far in excess of the 80 speed limit, which
> is too high anyway- should be 60. Never seen a police presence in the
Park,
> but do sometimes see a patrol car on the old Pac Highway. My cousin killed
> himself near Moonie on the bends and I spent my youth fanging a Honda
> between Sydney and Gosford, so I know the dangers and the attraction of
> motor bike riding, just wish motor cyclists could stick to the F3 if
they
> want to push it, although parts of the F3 are limited to 90 because of the
> incredible number of stupid crashes on it from speeding or incompetent
> motorists.
If you know the attractions of moto riding, you'll *know* that a straight,
boring, mind numbing ride like the F3 isn't one of them.
Tony F
it's all about going through corners
ritcho
tony f Wrote:
> If you know the attractions of moto riding, you'll *know* that a
> straight,
> boring, mind numbing ride like the F3 isn't one of them.
>
> Tony F
> it's all about going through corners
I know all about that from my youth... zooming around on a moto is fun,
but I always remembered that public roads are not private race tracks. I
took risks, rode too fast and had a mixture of good luck and good
judgement. Nevertheless ,the Old Pac. Hwy is still a public road with a
reduced speed limit for a reason, and it isn't because bicycles use it.
It's because too many wannabe car and moto racers hurled themselves
into trees, rockfaces and each other.
Let's all use the road for fun and consider others. Simple.
Ritch
--
ritcho
Zebee Johnstone
ritcho <ritcho...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> judgement. Nevertheless ,the Old Pac. Hwy is still a public road with a
> reduced speed limit for a reason, and it isn't because bicycles use it.
> It's because too many wannabe car and moto racers hurled themselves
> into trees, rockfaces and each other.
Were those bods going at the previous speed limit? Or were they
riding above that limit?
Zebee
Terry Collins
> Were those bods going at the previous speed limit? Or were they
> riding above that limit?
I can safely bet my last breath that they would have been above it. Goof
balls somehow manage to collide with trees on straight sections of road
and the poor trees get blamed for causing their death.
It really is a pity that police estimates of speed before the accident
are not made public as routine.
If you drove the old Pacific Highway at the old limits, including curve
advisories there was exceedingly little chance of you having an accident
that was caused by yourself. Occassionally you did need to drive lower
because the prevailing conditions required it, e.g. Morning/late night
fog over Mooney bridge was always a good one.
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>> Were those bods going at the previous speed limit? Or were they
>> riding above that limit?
>
> I can safely bet my last breath that they would have been above it. Goof
> balls somehow manage to collide with trees on straight sections of road
> and the poor trees get blamed for causing their death.
Don't worry. They've solved that problem. Signs with "trees close to
road" :)
--
TimC
Some witty text here,
can be any number of lines
long
Theo Bekkers
> I hurl volumes of silent abuse, and thank God I never took up
> such a socially obnoxious pursuit as motorbiking.
>
> Get my drift?
Yes Peter, I do. Do you really think all motorcyclists are socially
obnoxious? I don't believe I am, I don't believe Zebee is, or Bleve. Do you
think I become non-obnoxious when I get on one of my bicycles?
Theo
Shane Stanley
"Theo Bekkers" <tbek...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
> Do you
> think I become non-obnoxious when I get on one of my bicycles?
Theo sticks out chin...
;-)
--
Shane Stanley
Zebee Johnstone
Terry Collins <newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>> Were those bods going at the previous speed limit? Or were they
>> riding above that limit?
>
> I can safely bet my last breath that they would have been above it. Goof
> balls somehow manage to collide with trees on straight sections of road
> and the poor trees get blamed for causing their death.
It is quite likely that they were doing Very Silly Speeds.
Although not all of them - I have come adrift on the Old Road, and I
was doing under the limit. And not particularly hooning which is
damned annoying!
However, if most of them were doing well over the limit, then what
does dropping said limit gain anyone? Isn't going to stop the idiots
who were breaking the law before.
Zebee
Peter Signorini
"Theo Bekkers" wrote:
> Peter Signorini wrote:
>
>> I hurl volumes of silent abuse, and thank God I never took up
>> such a socially obnoxious pursuit as motorbiking.
>>
>> Get my drift?
>
> Yes Peter, I do. Do you really think all motorcyclists are socially
> obnoxious?
No reflection on you personally Zebee, I'm sure you're a responsible rider,
but any who behave as I described certainly are socially obnoxoius. On the
Reefton Spur Rd on a typical Sunday that's an awful lot of them.
Yes the behaviour of a few may be colouring my opinion, but those few behave
damn dangerously towards me on the roads. Go up the Reefton Spur one day -
you'll see frequent little memorial crosses and flowers on the roadside to
ex-motorcyclists.
Cheers
Peter
Bleve
Peter Signorini wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote:
> > Peter Signorini wrote:
> >
> >> I hurl volumes of silent abuse, and thank God I never took up
> >> such a socially obnoxious pursuit as motorbiking.
> >>
> >> Get my drift?
> >
> > Yes Peter, I do. Do you really think all motorcyclists are socially
> > obnoxious?
>
> No reflection on you personally Zebee, I'm sure you're a responsible rider,
> but any who behave as I described certainly are socially obnoxoius. On the
> Reefton Spur Rd on a typical Sunday that's an awful lot of them.
No more obnoxious than the Hell Ride riders who play at road racing on
Beach Rd!
There's dickheads in every group, no matter what they have as a common
factor, beit motorcycling, bike riding, driving landbarges ...
For what it's worth, I use a motorbike as my other transport (mainly
pushbike, the MB gets a run every week or so when necessary to cover
long distances faster than my pushy can go!). I don't endanger any
cyclists when I ride it, and your calling motorbiking socially
obnoxious is one I take offence to. I ride a motorbike because it's a
lot less damaging to the environment than a car, but it's my compromise
to practicality. It's *more* responsible (or less irresponsible!) than
a car.
All generalisations are wrong, remember?
Terry Collins
> Yes Peter, I do. Do you really think all motorcyclists are socially
> obnoxious? I don't believe I am, I don't believe Zebee is, or Bleve. Do you
> think I become non-obnoxious when I get on one of my bicycles?
Yes, bicycle seats don't put pressure on the "obnoxious" pressure points
like motorcycle seats do {:-)
Peter Signorini
"Bleve" wrote:
> There's dickheads in every group, no matter what they have as a common
> factor, beit motorcycling, bike riding, driving landbarges ...
Yes, agree muchly.
> For what it's worth, I use a motorbike as my other transport (mainly
> pushbike, the MB gets a run every week or so when necessary to cover
> long distances faster than my pushy can go!). I don't endanger any
> cyclists when I ride it, and your calling motorbiking socially
> obnoxious is one I take offence to.
I accept that it is a personal call about transport type, and as long as
it's done responsibly I don't bitch too much. I'm not trying to make a
generalisation against all motorcyclists, only those GP-wannabees who shave
my elbow, crackling their ear-splitting exhausts. No offence meant to people
on this group.
> I ride a motorbike because it's a
> lot less damaging to the environment than a car, but it's my compromise
> to practicality. It's *more* responsible (or less irresponsible!) than
> a car.
I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike. My
personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my family
and future children.
Note also that I drive a Commodore, and I believe I drive it responsibly. I
have two kids, and we often take trips with camping gear and bikes, so the
space is valauble. Recently I have been commuting 2-5 days per week so the
Commode/Stinkadore/etc doesn't clog the roads and air as much. I have often
noted many disparaging comments from posters here about Commodore drivers
but, until now, have not found it necessary to take them to task over any
offence caused to me.
> All generalisations are wrong, remember?
As you say.
Cheers
Peter
Kathy
Peter Signorini wrote:
> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike. My
> personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my family
> and future children.
Wow. Future children hey. Now thats seriously arrogant. Sorry Peter
but it really is.
Peter Signorini
Arrogant????!!
When I was 20, when the aforementioned accident occurred, I did actually
intend to have a family in the _future_! Today I do actually have two happy
kids who enjoy their bike riding, amongst other things.
How exactly is this "seriously arrogant"? 'Cos I don't get your criticism.
Cheers
Peter
Bleve
Peter Signorini wrote:
> "Bleve" wrote:
>
> > There's dickheads in every group, no matter what they have as a common
> > factor, beit motorcycling, bike riding, driving landbarges ...
>
> Yes, agree muchly.
>
> > For what it's worth, I use a motorbike as my other transport (mainly
> > pushbike, the MB gets a run every week or so when necessary to cover
> > long distances faster than my pushy can go!). I don't endanger any
> > cyclists when I ride it, and your calling motorbiking socially
> > obnoxious is one I take offence to.
>
> I accept that it is a personal call about transport type, and as long as
> it's done responsibly I don't bitch too much. I'm not trying to make a
> generalisation against all motorcyclists, only those GP-wannabees who shave
> my elbow, crackling their ear-splitting exhausts. No offence meant to people
> on this group.
Fair enough.
> > I ride a motorbike because it's a
> > lot less damaging to the environment than a car, but it's my compromise
> > to practicality. It's *more* responsible (or less irresponsible!) than
> > a car.
>
> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike. My
> personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my family
> and future children.
Fair enough. I don't agree, but this isn't the place to argue that
issue :)
Trevor_S
news:44044...@news.chariot.net.au:
<snip>
> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike.
So if a friend was killed riding a bicycle you would give up bicycling ?
What if a friend and their _family_ were killed driving a car, would you
give up the car ? If a friend dies from chocking on a tomato, would you
give up tomatoes ? If a friend jumps off a cliff, would you follow them ?
If a friends wife kills him, would you divorce yours ?
Surley the death of a friend gives you pause to reflect but if you have to
modify your behaviour based on that incident, something systemic is wrong
IMO. ie I guess I fail to see how it's "the motorcycles fault", as this
appears to be where you have laid blame over your friends demise.
The question is really only rhetorical, simply because I don't understand
that mindset :)
I ride for pleasure and to comute on both my motorbike and my MTB. Do I
ride fast on my bike, no, that would be irresponsible, do I exceed the
speed limit, sure 'enuff, very regularly.
--
Trevor S
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
Andrew Price
Trevor_S wrote
> I ride for pleasure and to comute on both my motorbike and my MTB. Do I
> ride fast on my bike, no, that would be irresponsible, do I exceed the
> speed limit, sure 'enuff, very regularly.
Our 18 yr old twins recently got their P plates and accordingly have
effectively a zero permitted blood alcohol level when driving.
This may just be my ineptitude, but on reflection I am inclined to apply
that policy whenever on 2 wheels, especially when they are powered.
Its just that I noticed the other day riding home from work (after thank
Allah its Friday drinks) that the reactions were slower and the lines
through corners not as tight as I would have liked them to be. Probably
under the legal limit, but skills not what they need to be in that
environment.
Will be sticking to red bulls without the vodka until the 2 wheels are
parked for the day.
best, Andrew
Tamyka Bell
>
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:30:38 +0000, TimC wrote:
>
> > I'll run with you :)
>
> Sssh, or Tam will give us shit.
How far you going? Nice easy 50km?
Tam
Zebee Johnstone
Andrew Price <arat...@bigpone.net.au.x1> wrote:
>
>
> Its just that I noticed the other day riding home from work (after thank
> Allah its Friday drinks) that the reactions were slower and the lines
> through corners not as tight as I would have liked them to be. Probably
> under the legal limit, but skills not what they need to be in that
> environment.
>
I find that recognising impairment is a useful skill.
Doesn't have to be alcohol. It can be flu, or fatigue.
What made you realise the reactions were slow? What tipped you off?
Zebee
Theo Bekkers
> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike.
> My personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my
> family and future children.
That's silly Peter. 1500 people died in cars in Oz last year, is that a
reason for you to stop driving?
> Note also that I drive a Commodore, and I believe I drive it
> responsibly. I have two kids, and we often take trips with camping
> gear and bikes, so the space is valauble. Recently I have been
> commuting 2-5 days per week so the Commode/Stinkadore/etc doesn't
> clog the roads and air as much. I have often noted many disparaging
> comments from posters here about Commodore drivers but, until now,
> have not found it necessary to take them to task over any offence
> caused to me.
Come on Peter, you can't drive a Commodore and not expect to get some stick.
From Falcon drivers if no-one else. :-)
Theo
Parbs
It wouldn't surprise me if Random Dave would find a 50km nice and easy.
Provided you could prise him away from his bike.
Not to sure about TimC...
Parbs
ritcho
It's pretty natural to react differently when an accident claims a
close friend than some news report about people you'll never know. It
isn't correct from an acturarial point of view, but mixing death and
close friends tends to widen the gap between perception and reality.
Would I behave the same way? I hope I don't have to find out.
Ritch
PS. Commodores and their drivers are crap (perception = reality :D) )
--
ritcho
Zebee Johnstone
ritcho <ritcho...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
> It's pretty natural to react differently when an accident claims a
> close friend than some news report about people you'll never know. It
I think most people react on how important the activity is to them,
not on what happens to a friend. The friend is the excuse not the reason.
I have known people who have been crippled in car crashes. That hasn't
stopped me using cars, because cars are useful things. (And hasn't
stopped them either, think about that...)
I know people who have been crippled in motorcycle crashes, I myself
am not quite what I used to be. But that doesn't stop me riding bikes
because they are Way Too Much Fun.
I know people who have been hurt in bicycle crashes, although no one I
personally know has been killed on a pushbike. Again, doesn't stop me
because unpowered two wheelers are fun too.
Of course it may be that I think that most of one's own safety is in one's
own hands, and that anyone who is scared off doing something they like
because someone else got it wrong doesn't really like that activity,
or isn't confident in their own ability.
Which includes the ability to read the road and others and take control of
their own environment, not blame everything on the mysterious "other".
WHich is what most "I gave up cos Fred got killed" people do: "It's
too dangerous out there, all those idiots on the road". Rubbish!
Your safety's in your hands, not theirs.
If a week in hospital with my brains scrambled and a broken kneecap didn't
keep me off my motorcycle I dunno going to a funeral will. Especially
not one like Boky's which celebrated a damn good man's love of his bike.
It happened to him, it can certainly happen to me, but that's no reason
not to do what I enjoy. Never confuse breathing in and out with living.
Having fun is important to me. Bikes, either kind, are fun. Cars aren't
fun, but they are useful nuisances. I knew people who drowned while out
in small boats, doesn't stop me saying "shit yeah!" if offered a go.
Although I prefer the go to be on something that doesn't capsize on a
regular basis as these days I object to cold water taken externally...
But even playing with mud-on-the-mast boats is fun. Horses are fun,
although they too can kill and maim people, even if you aren't on top of
them racing across bush tracks at flat gallop. Or jumping 6 foot fences.
Everyone has their own idea of fun. Anyone who gives up fun because
someone else gets hurt wasn't having enough fun....
Zebee
Peter Signorini
"Trevor_S" wrote:
>
> So if a friend was killed riding a bicycle you would give up bicycling ?
> What if a friend and their _family_ were killed driving a car, would you
> give up the car ? If a friend dies from chocking on a tomato, would you
Whoah, whoah!!!! What a rash of options.
But I didn't have to _give up_ anything, as I was only 20 and had no
motorbike licence. It was really a moment for a reality check on what was
important to me at the time. Bike won, then I ended up buying a car later
for occasional longer trips (it was only a Moke so not a major environmental
disaster: and I know, not much safer than a motorbike, but hey, I've stayed
alive for another 27 years since then)
> The question is really only rhetorical, simply because I don't understand
> that mindset :)
>
> I ride for pleasure and to comute on both my motorbike and my MTB. Do I
> ride fast on my bike, no, that would be irresponsible, do I exceed the
> speed limit, sure 'enuff, very regularly.
Sounds oh so similar to the attitude my brother in law had, and he was a cop
at the time. Speed limit?? What speed limit? But 160kmh down the city
freeway is not going too fast. I beg to disagree.
Cheers
Peter
Andrew Price
Zebee asked -
> What made you realise the reactions were slow? What tipped you off?
I guess we all do a bit of self evaluation as we go - was that manoeuvre
well or poorly executed, did I anticipate that cage jockey was going to cut
me off, did I see that pedestrian thinking about chancing a runner through
traffic?
Good riding on anything 2 wheeled is about anticipation and the way I
measure it is by asking is this relaxed, under control and fun, or is it
hairy scary and productive of angst.
I think how well you are taking the corners gives you the best feed back
because all your skills, balance and judgement come into play. You really do
know if your line is crap or you are not seeing and avoiding potholes etc
early enough.
Anyone can twist a throttle or push a big gear in a straight line for a
short while - you need to be a skilled rider unimpaired by recreational
pharmaceuticals to corner fast and well.
best, Andrew
Peter Signorini
"Theo Bekkers" wrote:
> Peter Signorini wrote:
>
>> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike.
>> My personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my
>> family and future children.
>
> That's silly Peter. 1500 people died in cars in Oz last year, is that a
> reason for you to stop driving?
No. But having a good friend mowed down by a crazy c#$t in a car (SMIDSY)
was enough to ensure I never took up motorbike riding. Speed of the
motorbike was a factor in this accident. He was new to motorbiking and did
like to hoon about. Riding the bike was a calculated risk for me, and you
know I think the road death data supports my view that riding a bicycle is
somewhat less risky than riding a motorbike. Not a lot, but a little.
>> Note also that I drive a Commodore, and I believe I drive it
>> responsibly. I have two kids, and we often take trips with camping
>> gear and bikes, so the space is valauble. Recently I have been
>> commuting 2-5 days per week so the Commode/Stinkadore/etc doesn't
>> clog the roads and air as much. I have often noted many disparaging
>> comments from posters here about Commodore drivers but, until now,
>> have not found it necessary to take them to task over any offence
>> caused to me.
>
> Come on Peter, you can't drive a Commodore and not expect to get some
> stick. From Falcon drivers if no-one else. :-)
Come on Theo, you can't ride a motorbike and not expect to get some stick.
From bicycle riders if no-one else. :-)
Cheers
Peter
Peter Signorini
"Peter Signorini" wrote
> But I didn't have to _give up_ anything, as I was only 20 and had no
> motorbike licence. It was really a moment for a reality check on what was
> important to me at the time. Bike won, ...
Please note, when I say bike, I'm referring to the true article, the
bicycle, aka pushie :-)
Cheers
Peter
Random Data
> It wouldn't surprise me if Random Dave would find a 50km nice and easy.
> Provided you could prise him away from his bike.
I'm glad the Co-op was really full, or the last few ks of today's 70 would
have hurt.
I'll have to buy those texts tomorrow (given that the PO is half way to
Uni and they'll want a signature, it's not wort mail ordering)
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
- Matt Groening
Theo Bekkers
>> Come on Peter, you can't drive a Commodore and not expect to get some
>> stick. From Falcon drivers if no-one else. :-)
> Come on Theo, you can't ride a motorbike and not expect to get some
> stick. From bicycle riders if no-one else. :-)
Touche. :-)
Theo
Theo Bekkers
> It's pretty natural to react differently when an accident claims a
> close friend than some news report about people you'll never know. It
> isn't correct from an acturarial point of view, but mixing death and
> close friends tends to widen the gap between perception and reality.
I had a nephew (brother's boy) die when his motorcycle met a car on a crest.
The ancient Valiant contained no less than 12 indigenous Australian people,
a large percentage of whom were pissed at ten in the morning.
What should I have learnt from that? What I did know that someone had to go
out to my brother's place and remove his guns from the premises.
Theo
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> fun, but they are useful nuisances. I knew people who drowned while out
> in small boats, doesn't stop me saying "shit yeah!" if offered a go.
> Although I prefer the go to be on something that doesn't capsize on a
> regular basis as these days I object to cold water taken externally...
The hot water in our shower at the uni has died.
Not fun at all.
--
TimC
I'm lost
I've gone to look for myself.
If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.
--Dan in AFDA
Peter Signorini
"dave" wrote:
>
> Peter it was me that had a go at you earlier btw, not Kathy. 'Think of
> the children" is a pretty pathetic appeal to silly emotionalism .
> "Think of my children" adds a fair amount of ego to it. "Think of my
> future children" well sheesh...... And I know you didnt say others
> must "Think of... " Some saving grace there. ;)
Fcuk the emotional appeal. I was simply saying that I intended to grow old,
have some children and watch them grow up. Pretty simple really, and taking
up motorbiking didn't seem to fit in with doing that, IMO at the time.
>
> You always seemed a pretty sensible bloke to me. Havn't always agreed
> with you but hey.. thats life.
Glad you think so. Most of my friends think I'm reasonably sensible - don't
know about the wife after I recently lashed out and bought a double kayak!
> But that was just sad.
You earlier described it as 'arrogant', now it's 'sad'. Don't see how those
two reconcile, myself. I wasn't trying to be a prick and impose my values on
anyone else, and hey, I didn't hide under a rock and avoid life - kept
sailing yachts in storms and capsizing, kept riding pushbikes in traffic,
took up mountainbiking, cross country skiing, downhill skiing . Of all
things, I even went and got married and am now able to go on rides with the
whole family. Eg:
http://community.webshots.com/album/414615184QTHcLg
> Just my opinion
> .. I,m sure you strongly disagree and their is no need to turn it into
> a war but.. well...
>
> And a common whore as well ... :)
Better to make it whoaagh! :-)
--
Cheers
Peter
_@
~~ _-\<,
~~ (*)/ (*)
dave
> "dave" wrote:
>
>>Peter it was me that had a go at you earlier btw, not Kathy. 'Think of
>>the children" is a pretty pathetic appeal to silly emotionalism .
>>"Think of my children" adds a fair amount of ego to it. "Think of my
>>future children" well sheesh...... And I know you didnt say others
>>must "Think of... " Some saving grace there. ;)
>
>
> Fcuk the emotional appeal. I was simply saying that I intended to grow old,
> have some children and watch them grow up. Pretty simple really, and taking
> up motorbiking didn't seem to fit in with doing that, IMO at the time.
It does but maybe not for you. But what I heard was "My future children
are so important that for their sake I will henceforth transport both
myself and them everywhere by Armoured Personal Carrier. (and stuff
everyone elses kids) For on their conception and future rest the fate of
the universe"
>
>>You always seemed a pretty sensible bloke to me. Havn't always agreed
>>with you but hey.. thats life.
>
>
> Glad you think so. Most of my friends think I'm reasonably sensible - don't
> know about the wife after I recently lashed out and bought a double kayak!
DOuble.. .hmmmmm thats pushing it.
>
>
>>But that was just sad.
>
>
> You earlier described it as 'arrogant', now it's 'sad'. Don't see how those
> two reconcile, myself.
Ohhh they so do. Arrogance without any justification is soooo sad.
Mohammed Ali can say "I am the greatest" and carry it off cos it just
might be true. Some 3rd rate thug can;t
I wasn't trying to be a prick and impose my values on
> anyone else, and hey, I didn't hide under a rock and avoid life - kept
> sailing yachts in storms and capsizing,
Doesnt everyone?
kept riding pushbikes in traffic,
Likewise
> took up mountainbiking, cross country skiing, downhill skiing . Of all
> things, I even went and got married and am now able to go on rides with the
> whole family. Eg:
> http://community.webshots.com/album/414615184QTHcLg
Er..... ok I spose.
>
>
>>Just my opinion
>>.. I,m sure you strongly disagree and their is no need to turn it into
>>a war but.. well...
>>
>>And a common whore as well ... :)
>
>
> Better to make it whoaagh! :-)
Hmmmmmm.
>
Dave
Peter Signorini
"dave" wrote:
>
> But what I heard was "My future children
> are so important that for their sake I will henceforth transport both
> myself and them everywhere by Armoured Personal Carrier. (and stuff
> everyone elses kids) For on their conception and future rest the fate of
> the universe"
Wow! You certainly are putting a slant on my words, as I don't recall saying
anything like this:
Dave wrote on 1/03:
> Peter Signorini wrote:
>
>> I drive a car because I saw a friend get killed riding his motorbike. My
>> personal view was that this was a more responsible decision for my family
>> and future children.
>
>
> Wow. Future children hey. Now thats seriously arrogant. Sorry Peter but
> it really is.
No. Nothing about driving around in an APC, not even a 4 Wankers Delight. As
far as the family was concerned - that's my mum and dad - they would have
been stressed out about me taking up motorbiking. And 'future children' -
already stated I did plan to have kids and see them grow up. So a little
while later I did buy a Mini Moke. No 4WD, no 'stuff everyone else's kids',
no pretentious crap about my kids are 'the future of the universe'. I chose
to own a car, that's all, but mostly I rode my bike to work.
Getting sick of this game of having to justify my decisions from 27 years
ago. I'm off to get some sleep, ready to cycle to work tomorrow. Great
cycling weather we're having, eh? Bye.
Plodder
--
Frank
pang...@DACKSiinet.net.au
Drop DACKS to reply
"dave" <da...@comcen.com.au> wrote in message
news:440c...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com...
> Peter Signorini wrote:
> > "dave" wrote:
> >
> >>Peter it was me that had a go at you earlier btw, not Kathy. 'Think of
> >>the children" is a pretty pathetic appeal to silly emotionalism .
> >>"Think of my children" adds a fair amount of ego to it. "Think of my
> >>future children" well sheesh...... And I know you didnt say others
> >>must "Think of... " Some saving grace there. ;)
> >
> >
> > Fcuk the emotional appeal. I was simply saying that I intended to grow
old,
> > have some children and watch them grow up. Pretty simple really, and
taking
> > up motorbiking didn't seem to fit in with doing that, IMO at the time.
>
> It does but maybe not for you. But what I heard was "My future children
> are so important that for their sake I will henceforth transport both
> myself and them everywhere by Armoured Personal Carrier. (and stuff
> everyone elses kids) For on their conception and future rest the fate of
> the universe"
>
SNIP a whole lot of other stuff...
>
> Dave
Geez, Dave. Try reading out of things instead of reading into them. It seems
you are a master of agressive reading!
Anyway, what's so wrong about emotional appeals? It seems to me that not
many arguments have a 'rational' (what does that mean, anyway?) basis. Most
are emotive - even dry scientific arguments are sparked by curiosity - an
emotive kickstart. Humans are emotionally driven beasties who have the
ability to articulate their emotional state to give others some
understanding. We apply rational principles to articulating emotions.
Nothing wrong with being concerned about one's ability to procreate in the
future and to have concerns about the health and wellbeing of those as yet
unborn kids. It's a simple, primal emotional state that is as or more valid
than objective rationality.
How many of us here can honestly say we ride bikes ONLY for objectively
altuistic reasons? Not because it's fun, not because it feels good, no
pleasure derived from the practice at all. We ride for a variety of
reasons - some that give external benefits like lessening pollution, some
internal like feeling good from the exercise and some social like dropping
the cost of health services. Some take actions for reasons like concern for
future generations. How is that any different, apart from scale, to being
oncerned about one's future family?
Just ride yer bike ad recognise that emotions should not be dismissed but
regarded as valid starting points for practical reasoning schemata...
me
maigr...@gmail.com
F Murtz
> The only solution
> http://366efbkjrvn03ddqjepf6l5y8t.hop.clickbank.net/
I doubt that anyone at all is going to read your rubbish once they find
they have been tricked into opening your page,People tend to get
extremely annoyed at such antics.