Drivetrain component upgrade
Michael
I am currently running Shimano Altrus front and rear and would like to
upgrade to Deore but can't afford to do the whole lot at once and was
wondering whether I can replace the front derailer, chain rings and shifter
first and then when I am able, replace the rear.
Will this work or will I have to do the whole lot at once?
I am happy with the rest of the bike (Rock Machine Master) and I am keen to
do this upgrade so any advice is appreciated.
Regards
Michael Mills
Duncan Bourne
chainrings, chain and cassette at the same time - worn components will
cause accelerated wear of new ones.
You could do your front & rear derailleurs & front shifter first, then
do chain, chainrings, rear shifter and cassette next. This is assuming
Altus is 8 speed and deore is 9. If Altus is seven you can't put a 9
speed cassette on the hub and will need a new hub o keep your current
shifter and use a seven speed cassette.
Also I think one usually buys shifters in pairs.
Good luck
Duncan Bourne
Michael
> I am looking for some advice on upgrading some of the components on my bike.
> I am currently running Shimano Altrus front and rear and would like to
> upgrade to Deore but can't afford to do the whole lot at once and was
If you are a bit short on cash, there are probably a thousand better
things to do with it than such a minor upgrade. The difference between
Altus and Deore is 90% marketing.
how many gears now? If 7-speed, you need a new hub.
Your existing chainrings may work with the narrower 9-speed chain.
If you are really attached to the old frame, it might still be cheaper
to buy a new bike, transfer the components, and sell the new frame etc.
Read Sheldon Brown's site for lots of info on upgrades and compatibility.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/articles.html
> wondering whether I can replace the front derailer, chain rings and shifter
> first and then when I am able, replace the rear.
Yes, but frankly, why bother? The 7/8 speed chain is a little wider than
the deore front derailer is designed for, but it should be OK. Maybe not
as easily shifting as you have now.
> Will this work or will I have to do the whole lot at once?
> I am happy with the rest of the bike (Rock Machine Master) and I am keen to
> do this upgrade so any advice is appreciated.
May I ask why you are keen? Do you need a slightly bigger gear range?
Dont expect it to go faster. Most people would only bother with this
when the old components wore out.
Anyway, read Sheldon first.
MPD
"Michael" <gnusne...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3DB5033F...@optusnet.com.au...
> Michael wrote:
> > I am looking for some advice on upgrading some of the components on my
bike.
> > I am currently running Shimano Altrus front and rear and would like to
> > upgrade to Deore but can't afford to do the whole lot at once and was
>
> If you are a bit short on cash, there are probably a thousand better
> things to do with it than such a minor upgrade. The difference between
> Altus and Deore is 90% marketing.
I am not 100% convinced (or even 90%) about the marketing statement
I have seen way too many cheap cranksets go to the pack after a small amount
of x-country and minor technical yakka off-road.
(They have been Alivio and Acera, both are classified as better components
to Altus)
Shame not all LBS sales folk consult the customer about their requirements
and warn these riders about durability of componentry. Just focus on the
pre-sale!
Anyhow, it all depends on how you want to use the bike. Deore is a minimum
for off-road or you will be replacing components in a hurry (STX-RC if
looking around at older 7 & 8speed)
Nothing wrong with Acera, Alivio etc, shifts well, needs little maintenance,
but great for pavement pounding.
Cheers
Matt
JC
in fact I agree with guy a few posts back, save your money for something
more worth while - new helmet or somthing.....
I have an old Trek Y22 that I like to ride, but it doens't have V brakes
(which I wanted) but to convert bike was not going to be cheap as my present
bike has integrated XT brake lever/shifter pods.
If I went to new Deore, i'd need....
New 9 spd cluster
Shifter pods
Braker levers
Brake calipers
Shimano reckons I need these as well,
New chain rings
New chain & derailers (f&r)
I tried to find some older shifting pods that were 8 spd to find they were
crazy expensive on their own anyways (unless I could buy them from ebay in
the US)
So bought a new bike with hydralic discs instead.....
"MPD" <mm...@hotmail.comm> wrote in message
news:XAat9.13105$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Frank Palermo
"Michael" <mjm...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3db49539$0$12762$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
If you're really keen to upgrade the lot, it might be worth waiting a little
longer and buying the whole groupset together. I think (a pretty dodgy bike
shop guy shop told me this) Shimano offers a fair discount for a whole
groupset purchase, so buying in bits when you intend to go the whole hog
anyway might be false economy. Ifit's true that Shimano does offer the
substantial discount, perhaps you could do a deal with your bike shop and
get them to buy the lot in for you and you agree to buy the bits as you can.
Just a thought...
Not altogether sure what you describe is worth doing though. It's ususally
easier to replace bits as they break or wear out. That way you can often
afford (although the total cost is higher) to upgrade more significantly to
say, Deore LX or XT. There's a fairly small performance difference between
one group set and the next, but the difference is more obvious when you skip
a couple of levels.
Cheers,
Frank
Peter Signorini
"Duncan Bourne" <d.bo...@cqu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3DB4D69C...@cqu.edu.au...
> This is assuming
> Altus is 8 speed and deore is 9. If Altus is seven you can't put a 9
> speed cassette on the hub and will need a new hub o keep your current
> shifter and use a seven speed cassette.
>
cassette swapped to a 9 spd cassette on the same hub. 7 spd can be swapped
to 8 spd with the simple swapping of a spacer fom the LH to RH side of the
hub (or vice versa, can't remember exactly). 8 spd and 9 spd hubs are the
same size, just different spacing between the sprockets. As I said, I did it
with no need for dishing, using the same F & R derailleurs - gear train is
working fine.
Go talk to your LBS.
Cheers
Peter
Duncan Bourne
Regarding a 7sp hub, the freehub body is shorter so I believe an 8 or 9 cassette won't fit. You can replace the freehub part of the hub with an 8/9 but will definitely need to fiddle with spacers and in some circumstances redishing and/or new axle may be necessary. At deore level and lower a whole new hub is probably comparable in price.
Here's a very informative article on a very informative site, should have all the info you need and more besides -
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
Duncan Bourne
Bristan
> for off-road or you will be replacing components in a hurry (STX-RC if
> looking around at older 7 & 8speed)
> Nothing wrong with Acera, Alivio etc, shifts well, needs little
maintenance,
> but great for pavement pounding.
I agree with you
It is interesting to note that Giant in their wisdom chose to downgrade
their cranks, bottom bracket and front chainsprocket on their XTC NRS3
current model. Shifters, deraileurs etc are Deore. Previous models were
all full Deore. I have the current model and have the misfortune to have a
warped chainring which Giant won't fix as they say it is acceptable. It may
be to them but I have poor gear shifting from middle to large and from
middle to small sprockets under load. Adjustment doesn't seem to be able to
fix the problem either as the warped ring scrapes the front deraileir at the
limit of the adjustment.
Bristan
Iguana Bwana
<mjm...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>I am currently running Shimano Altrus front and rear and would like to
>upgrade to Deore but can't afford to do the whole lot at once
No, you can do it piecemeal, but because of the 'x to 9 speed'
differential, you will be committed to purchasing several speed
compatible components together when you decide to upgrade the rear to
9 speed (Deore).
>and was wondering whether I can replace the front derailer, chain rings and shifter
>first and then when I am able, replace the rear.
You don't mention what drivetrain & crank (or chainring) combo you
currently have. I'd do the shifters, rear derailleur, chain & cassette
components first unless the crankset is actually causing you problems?
If you were simply upgrading 9 speed componentry it'd be simpler, but
as you're changing from (7 speed?) Altus, that makes it rather more
restrictive when changing component by component. ie: Wheel dishing
and cassette hub may be required.
Deore Chain-rings and/or cranks plus Deore front derailleur first will
probably be fine, but if you wish to upgrade the shifters to Deore
which are 9 speed *indexed*, you'll also have to concurrently upgrade
the chain to 9 speed (thinner), plus accompany it with a 9 speed
compatible rear derailleur, cassette etc.
>Will this work or will I have to do the whole lot at once?
If you truly intend to do the lot, unless you're experiencing chain
suck which a drivetrain clean accompanied by a chainring strip,
inspection, straightening and deburr won't eliminate, just save up
until you can afford the full Deore groupset and upgrade all at once.
Apart from saving a packet from when buying items individually, it'll
solve your mixed speed drivetrain component problem AND enable you to
go with Octalink cranks for the same price as square taper with the BB
basically thrown into the deal FOC with the money you save.
Alternatively, live with what you've got until you can afford to
upgrade the bike. Problem is, until you get into the $2k spending
bracket, it's tough to find an "off the rack" bike kitted with an
*uncompromised* full (even Deore) groupset. Most manufacturers will
usually have the 'hidden' components compromised with some sandpaper
'smooth' cheapshit BB, and use square taper Deore or OEM (FC-M440)
cranks just to save a few pence. They'll usually compromise similarly
on hubs and or brakes, at least at the business end.
Shimano do heavily segment market for pricepoint, so make sure you
actually *need* Deore before you decide to spend on it.
As for the (paraphrased) comment about groupset segmentation being
"90% marketing", whilst there's an element of truth in it, that's not
quite the true full story. Yes, pricepoint segmentation through
elitism is a part of the equation, but there is a noticeable
difference in the performance of components as you move up the
groupset hierarchy from Deore. Mind you, the subsequent respective
pricepoints more directly reflect the elitism (desirability) factor
and preparedness to pay of the target demographic at which they are
aimed than they cost to manufacture per se.
All components will wear out or break with the unavoidable &
accidental abuse they receive with prolonged use in the off-road
environment. For most of us *in Australia*, Deore probably represents
a good compromise between price and performance, providing that
desirable combination of level of performance, reliability and
toughness for your average sport rider. Importantly, it's much cheaper
to replace than LX, XT or XTR as the parts (a) wear and (b) break.
I've concurrently two MTB, one predominantly Deore and the other a mix
of LX & XT. No question, the XT drivetrain is noticeably both smoother
and crisper. ie: nicer to use. However, it is not *necessary*,
certainly at sport level. Perhaps lacking boasting rights, but Deore
offers no meaningful performance disadvantage for your average sport
MTB rider, and leaves a lot more cash in your pocket to replace the
broken bits or to buy that second set of rims. I ended up with the
LX/XT by default from a "too good to refuse" deal. Whilst nice to own
& use, but I wouldn't buy it if I actually had to pay full freight.
Deore would certainly do me. I've gotten by competently with less (SR
& Alivio) previously.
PS: I ride often with a guy who has a Norco with a mix of Acera &
Alivio 8 speed. He manages quite well, rides competently, and it has
proved reasonably reliable for him.
Trust this helps. Others suggestions re researching on Sheldon's site
are reiterated.
cheers
Iguana Bwana
Michael
these newsgroups are :)
I will take on board what has been said and go through what is on Sheldon
Brown's website.
Thanks,
Michael
"Michael" <mjm...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3db49539$0$12762$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Iguana Bwana
>It is interesting to note that Giant in their wisdom chose to downgrade
>their cranks, bottom bracket and front chainsprocket on their XTC NRS3
>current model.
A fuller intelligent analysis taking into account all factors will
recognise that an, if not THE primary motivation behind Giant doing
this across their entire Australian model range is more about consumer
sensitivity to pricepoint exacerbated by our pissweak dollar than any
statement implying manufacturer recognition of component equality.
>Shifters, deraileurs etc are Deore. Previous models were
>all full Deore.
Exactly. Giant tend to substitute the branded components which aren't
"in your face" to the average consumer with OEM, clones or a cheapest
model of prominent brand names. Hubs, cranks, bottom brackets &
v-brakes being favourites for this. Not to imply Giant are alone in
this merchandising practice either.
>I have the current model and have the misfortune to have a
>warped chainring which Giant won't fix as they say it is acceptable.
Prima facie that sounds unreasonable both on behalf of Giant and the
LBS IF it was actually supplied with the chainrings like that?
>It may be to them but I have poor gear shifting from middle to large and from
>middle to small sprockets under load. Adjustment doesn't seem to be able to
>fix the problem either as the warped ring scrapes the front deraileir at the
>limit of the adjustment.
Pull the chainrings apart and see if you can straighten/flatten it.
Read Barnett's about the problem. Successful rectification is limited
by the degree to which your chainring is warped/bent.
IME,
Peter Signorini
"Duncan Bourne" <d.bo...@cqu.edu.au> wrote in message news:3DB5DDA0...@cqu.edu.au...
Michael
>>Michael wrote:
> The difference between Altus and Deore is 90% marketing.
>
> I am not 100% convinced (or even 90%) about the marketing statement
...
> (They have been Alivio and Acera, both are classified as better components
> to Altus)
Backpedal! Sorry, the damned Shimano market-fragmentation had me
confused. Altus is the bottom (we dont count tourney :), so I retract
the 90%. Still, Altus is OK for most use.
But does it have a freewheel cluster, rather than free-hub? You will
definitely want a new hub then, if upgrading. Broken any axels yet?
Michael
> Exactly. Giant tend to substitute the branded components which aren't
> "in your face" to the average consumer with OEM, clones or a cheapest
> model of prominent brand names. Hubs, cranks, bottom brackets &
> v-brakes being favourites for this.
I've heard the opinion that these are also less-important parts.
Or parts where lesser-known brands give better value. Is this a happy
coincidence or wishful thinking?
Its common to see a higher-grade rear derailer. e.g. deore rear, alivio
front. Or Acera/Altus. And both are quite visible.
And the cassette, important but no visible brand, doesnt seem to be
downgraded.
Hmmm ... maybe the idea of "Megarange" clusters is to provide plenty
of space for the Shimano brand. :-) Nah, Sheldon has explained how
these are really a good idea.
Gags
"Iguana Bwana" <Iguana...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:icebruklkmvrc70ai...@4ax.com...
>Problem is, until you get into the $2k spending
> bracket, it's tough to find an "off the rack" bike kitted with an
> *uncompromised* full (even Deore) groupset. Most manufacturers will
> usually have the 'hidden' components compromised with some sandpaper
> 'smooth' cheapshit BB, and use square taper Deore or OEM (FC-M440)
> cranks just to save a few pence. They'll usually compromise similarly
> on hubs and or brakes, at least at the business end.
I was looking at new mountain bikes this week at around the $2k mark and was
pretty impressed with the spec level on a GT Avalanche 0.0 that retails for
$1899. It has full Deore (including Deore disc hubs), an XT rear
derailleur, Hayes HFX Hydraulic discs, and a Rock Shock Pilot XC fork.
It looks like pretty good value to me and from what I have heard from mates
and reviews, the GT frames are generally pretty strong. Another bonus for
me being 196cm and 99kg is that they have sizes up to XXL.
The guy in the LBS reckons that 2003 is a good year to buy a bike (why
wouldn't he sat that though) as the manufacturers are offering up specced
models at similar prices to 2002.
Now I just have to convince the missus!!!!!
Cheers
Gags
Bristan
(snip)
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:32:02 +1000, "Bristan" <daed> wrote:
> >I have the current model and have the misfortune to have a
> >warped chainring which Giant won't fix as they say it is acceptable.
>
> Prima facie that sounds unreasonable both on behalf of Giant and the
> LBS IF it was actually supplied with the chainrings like that?
>
bracket should be changed but Giant rep wouldn't come to the party.
LBS claimed to have replaced the sprocket and pushed and prodded things but
still came back with a warp. Not quite as big a warp mind you, but still
there. LBS said I would have to replace the BB at my own expense if I want
any better.
The Giant rep seemed to be an ex Road racer as he called my machine "low
end" and that pro's pay "thousands of dollars" for crankset and I shouldn't
expect any more for a "cheap " bike. ($2000 plus)
LBS said the problem is with 9 speed rear cassette as there is not much room
for the gear change and the compenents have to be very precise.
Incidentally, crankset was downgraded to shimano M440 and BB to Shimano
Alvio, both previously Deore.
.......My little winge
Bristan
Duncan Bourne
Australia direct, they won't want their reps slagging off new giant
bikes or admitting their new bikes don't run well out of the box.
If you don't get satisfaction keep moving up the chain, I'm sure they've
got customer service at some level that will be able to help. Not sure
how a new BB will eliminate the warp but if that's the case and i
presume the BB isn't worn out then the bike was supplied with the wrong BB.
A nasty business, sounds like you need to take it higher. Consider
mentioning also that Giant obviously aren't supporting the shops that
stock their bikes. Make a fuss to Giant. Sounds like your LBS is caught
in the middle so maybe go a bit easy on them - or just demand they take
the bike back and give you a refund and let them take it up with Giant.
Duncan Bourne
Bristan wrote