Short status update

[Martin Bogomolni]

I'm going to keep this short, but it's an update everyone will like hearing.

We're in the last step before signing the lease on our new location.
Discussion about it is on the new-location list, and we're going to do
a proper announcement once the ink is dry on the paper.

We're just down to signing the paperwork *smile*

Thanks to everyone who put in the hard work. Now ALL YOU LURKERS on
the list. We need you to join the Co-Op! Take ownership of part
of something spectacular, and come help build it.

If you're already a member, or you have been sitting on the fence
waiting for the new lease to become a member, and want to purchase
your co-op share, please email me (trea...@atxhs.org).

-M

[Mandie Kramer]

Kind of how I feel right now:

-M

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[David Mitchell]

Like a man in dress clothes? ;)

[Eric Jacobs]

Martin,

As it sounds like this will be in a state to go up for a vote on
Tuesday, could we bring the discussion over to the members list? We can
weigh in there.

-Eric

[Martin Bogomolni]

Eric,

Vote for what? This deal is done, and going through. The approval was long before, to negotiate it in the first place.

-M

[Eric Jacobs]

No, we haven't approved anything. We haven't even seen the lease. We
haven't seen any dollar amounts, terms, or anything like that.

We need to vote as it is a liability in excess of $500 as required by
the operating agreement.

I highly recommend to put it on the agenda for the member meeting.

-Eric

[Amishacker]

As I see it there is only one thing we can vote on:

Should we block the board and volunteer planner decision to sign this lease until Tuesday, and then make it a must-vote item?

The motion was made to vote on Longhorn vs Dessau.

That was effectively shouted down and affirmed by consensus.

I will look for the moment later, but it was recorded (hopefully well) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qceCi0DsBw

Personally I took that as final approval to just 'get it done' since it was entirely consistent with the needs of our community and already affirmed through frequent communication. I made a big announcement when consensus was reached and nobody voiced a thing there either.

So hey, if you want to call this vote, I'm OK with it, but you have to realize that it will delay everything and it is possible that will be harmful to our objectives.

So, before we call a vote...

Does anyone agree with Eric and want to second the motion to call a vote to approve the signing of this lease?

(frame it in your words please)

[Amishacker]

I may poo poo it, but I'm serious.

At this point all of the momentum is behind signing tomorrow. 

We can have it done and set to work on Tuesday.

If you want to halt it until Tuesday, please second Eric's motion to halt the decision until we can all vote together.

That is (correct me if I am wrong Eric) what he is asking for.

[Eric C Blount]

Hello, another Eric here. I, personally, want the team to move forward. I, too, feel there's been some lack of communication, but perhaps that's because I didn't join the other mailing list. Anyway, here are my reasons for just moving forward tomorrow:

1. We've been without a space for a while now. We've voted on spaces and they've fallen through, and it seems like, at least in some instances, the bureaucracy of voting has slowed things down and caused us to miss opportunities (I have no proof of this).

2. We've discussed time-and-again what the needs of the 'Space are, noting what's a must-have and what would be nice, and I doubt seriously that the committee who signed off on this made a decision that would be bad for the 'Space.

3. Our old space wasn't perfect when we moved in, but a ton of people got a lot done in it. We didn't even know we'd be getting a laser cutter when we signed the lease, but it worked out - our membership is absolutely filled with problem solvers. The primary problem with the old space was a lack of room and organization. If the room issue is addressed by the new space (and I believe it will be), then any other problems seem fairly trivial to me.

We didn't do it officially this time, but in the future, we should probably formally elect a steering committee that makes decisions and regularly reports back to the larger group. I think that might assure the membership that the people making decisions are doing so in the best interest of the whole Hackerspace.

Thanks,
Eric Blount

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[Amishacker]

Thanks Eric B, I particularly liked this:

We didn't do it officially this time, but in the future, we should probably formally elect a steering committee that makes decisions and regularly reports back to the larger group. I think that might assure the membership that the people making decisions are doing so in the best interest of the whole Hackerspace.

Seconded!

I think we've gone in the right direction via the wrong path but we got here.

There are great possibilites in this new space, and I blocked consensus against it myself.

I'm now convinced we should go for it, but perhaps not everyone is.

Seconds for halting until the member meeting to do a real vote?

Voice your opinions please, and don't let groupthink stop you if you feel strongly.

[Mandie Kramer]

Well said, Eric. I agree that things have been happening a little fast and dirty; being homeless sucks and we all want to be in our new home as soon as possible. I try to speak up whenever I see that things may not be as transparent as may be in an ideal situation. Those who have been in the decision making process up to their necks are all their because they stepped forward and had a willingness to get'er done, and I have absolute faith that they are making decisions based on the best interests of the membership. 

We may need to rethink the practice of creating extra email lists to "spare" non-interested members all the jabber.

[Amishacker]

We may need to rethink the practice of creating extra email lists to "spare" non-interested members all the jabber.

That sounds like an agenda item, especially because the #1 complaint I hear from Anne is "too much noise on the mailing list! There is no way to keep up!"

...and I just say "I heartily agree, but how do we fix that?"

Personally I will officially have to quit these mailing lists if I want to keep my job(s) in a week or two here.

[Mandie Kramer]

There has to be a way to partition discussions without alienating those who might want to see everything and don't appreciate a barrier to entry (even if it's just signing up). It's something to think on. Definitely a good agenda item.

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[Brent Burton]

I agree with Eric B on this. Those of us at the 11/6 meeting (see the
youtube link Marshall provided) gave the new-location committee the
go-ahead on getting either the Desau or Longhorn location. The
separate mail list was created to do two things: (1) isolate location
jabber from those who are not interested in seeing it, and (2) to
encapsulate sensitive discussion of negotiable items from the more
general ATXHS lists. Anyone interested could have joined that list.

Props to the new-location committee. Mandie put it well: "I have

absolute faith that they are making decisions based on the best

interests of the membership." So do I.

I see no need for a vote on this. The committee had full authorization
to make the new space happen.

But, for the benefit of those of us not on the new-location mail list,
*which* location is The One?

[Brandon Wiley]

I don't personally feel that lack of discussion is an issue, so much as lack of reporting of information and actions. As I can no longer make it out on Tuesdays, I have been following things from the mailing list and I've found it to be confusing. I was surprised to find out that the co-op conversion went through. I thought there was going to be a vote to ratify the new bylaws. I was surprised that a deal is being signed as the last thing I read was that there were several spaces under consideration.

I think that the people that are spending a lot of time on these issues are talking to each other and assume everyone knows what's going on, while from the point of view of a mailing list reader it's unclear what's happening. I think the solution to this is not to move all of the other mailing list traffic onto the main list, but to have someone that knows what's going on report this information to the main list. It would just be nice to know what's going on. I'm still not really sure and I'm interested.

[Danny Miller]

To be honest, yes, voting is pointless, because the action depends upon success of negotiations and have an actionable option on the table.  But no, really, voting did not slow down the process to miss opportunities. 

We're pretty settled on what the NEEDS of the space are, as far as the basic building.  They're a high amount of parking, in the right part of town, electricals, available internets, air conditioning, bay doors, and a lot of sq footage, at an affordable price. 

This boils down to a limited number of properties.  Everyone's aware of the need to get a physical building again.  The opportunities we "missed" were for reasons that would plausibly come back to bite us in a big way within the period of the lease.

Let me be clear, the progress with the LEASE process is NOT bogged down by "where do we put the laser cutter?".  There's "some truth" to that sort of thing bogging down the Wall St situation, but that was not the root problem. 

And it's NOT happening now, adoption of the lease is basically running parallel to the architectural layout effort.

The drive IS to sign the lease.  Signing big commercial leases aren't off-the-shelf transactions and the process does take some time, and basically things are being done as quickly as they can and we ARE pretty far along in the process. 

In short, we're not "holding back". 

Danny

[Mandie Kramer]

9701 Dessau!

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

Yes, 9701 Dessau is "The One," and, FWIW, forums in the future, people! I want our members to roar, and to have access to all the goings-on of the 'Space.....I'm just tired of that constant 24-7 roaring party happening in my inbox...

[Mert]

I'm confused by the comments about people feeling uninformed.  I have personally seen the lease documents and all the discussions about the new space for awhile now.   The appropriate mailing lists have been and are open for anyone who is interested to follow.  The archives are online.

 

Coop conversion?  We've been discussing that for months... check the meeting minutes on the wiki, for example:

http://www.atxhs.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes/20120616  I have personally read the new operating agreement and Martin's summary awhile ago. 

 

Forums?  I sure hope not... I'm spending enough time reading all the available email lists as it is. 

 

I'm don't mean to put anyone down, but i'm not sure what could have been done differently.... the information has been available to anyone who wanted to see it.  With all the detailed discussions about the new space, etc. the price of being informed is an overflowing inbox.  Do we want to swamp the discuss list with all these minutiae?

 

If you can't make meetings, don't want to sign up for email lists, and don't want to read tons of emails, it's going to be difficult to stay informed.  I wish I could see an easy solution for that.  I don't think creating one more thing to read is the answer.  Does anyone have a better idea?

[Paul Bonser]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Mert <mert....@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm confused by the comments about people feeling uninformed.  I have personally seen the lease documents and all the discussions about the new space for awhile now.   The appropriate mailing lists have been and are open for anyone who is interested to follow.  The archives are online.

 

Coop conversion?  We've been discussing that for months... check the meeting minutes on the wiki, for example:

http://www.atxhs.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes/20120616  I have personally read the new operating agreement and Martin's summary awhile ago. 

 

Forums?  I sure hope not... I'm spending enough time reading all the available email lists as it is. 

 

I'm don't mean to put anyone down, but i'm not sure what could have been done differently.... the information has been available to anyone who wanted to see it.  With all the detailed discussions about the new space, etc. the price of being informed is an overflowing inbox.  Do we want to swamp the discuss list with all these minutiae?

 

If you can't make meetings, don't want to sign up for email lists, and don't want to read tons of emails, it's going to be difficult to stay informed.  I wish I could see an easy solution for that.  I don't think creating one more thing to read is the answer.  Does anyone have a better idea?

Well, the idea isn't that it would be an *extra* thing to read, but *the* thing to read. As in, it would replace the mailing lists. If we can, we will make it also work *as* a mailing list, since there is obviously some interest in that.

We'll see what solutions are available out there. If nothing else, I will look into what it would take to write an email layer for the forums, using an email app framework like Lamson (http://lamsonproject.org/), perhaps. 

 

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 3:26:29 PM UTC-6, Brandon Wiley wrote:

I don't personally feel that lack of discussion is an issue, so much as lack of reporting of information and actions. As I can no longer make it out on Tuesdays, I have been following things from the mailing list and I've found it to be confusing. I was surprised to find out that the co-op conversion went through. I thought there was going to be a vote to ratify the new bylaws. I was surprised that a deal is being signed as the last thing I read was that there were several spaces under consideration.

I think that the people that are spending a lot of time on these issues are talking to each other and assume everyone knows what's going on, while from the point of view of a mailing list reader it's unclear what's happening. I think the solution to this is not to move all of the other mailing list traffic onto the main list, but to have someone that knows what's going on report this information to the main list. It would just be nice to know what's going on. I'm still not really sure and I'm interested.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Mandie Kramer <mandie...@gmail.com> wrote:

There has to be a way to partition discussions without alienating those who might want to see everything and don't appreciate a barrier to entry (even if it's just signing up). It's something to think on. Definitely a good agenda item.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Amishacker <marshall...@gmail.com> wrote:

We may need to rethink the practice of creating extra email lists to "spare" non-interested members all the jabber.

That sounds like an agenda item, especially because the #1 complaint I hear from Anne is "too much noise on the mailing list! There is no way to keep up!"

...and I just say "I heartily agree, but how do we fix that?"

Personally I will officially have to quit these mailing lists if I want to keep my job(s) in a week or two here.

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[Scott Saunders]

I can't speak for Brandon, but I can explain why I feel out of touch.

I read (or at least skim) every email on the announce, discuss and new space email lists. There's no lack of Discussion - that's not my issue. I worry about a lack of information about Decisions.

The last meeting notes, for example, discuss three different spaces under consideration. There have been a million messages about the floor plan, the hvac, the internet connection, the color of the bike shed, etc. However, I don't remember any email or announcement about making a final decision about those spaces until after it was made. I don't remember the vote on spaces being announced. I don't remember being asked to vote. I don't remember being asked to vote for a committee to decide between the spaces. I'm still not sure Who made that or when it was made decision.

I'm not questioning the decision, but I will call out that it doesn't seem to have been made democratically. I know it was expedient and convenient for the decision to just get made without a lot of hassle. I know there was concern about hampering our negotiation ability. But I also believe that that method does not live up to our democratic, co-operative ideals.

I'm not able to make meetings right now. I know that's a severe limitation, but I think that this of all groups could manage to communicate with its membership virtually - especially right now while we're "homeless". We've had votes by proxy before, this one could have been handled the same way.

My fear/frustration right now is that those of us who can't be there in person are considered "uninterested" and don't need to be included in the decision making process.

Does that make sense, Mert? Do you think there's something I can do to be more aware of when and how decisions are being made? That's an honest question - not a snipe. I'd like to remain involved with the group even while I'm unable to get to meetings.

Thanks,
Scott

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[Amishacker]

Paul, I would like to talk about this as a 'straw poll' to gauge support as an agenda item next meeting.

Do you want to defer this until you have done more research and discussed it here?

Do you want to solicit opinions, or call for a vote?

Personally I think a straw poll with discussion would be best, but you have volunteered the idea, so the agenda is yours.

[Mert]

Scott, I face some of the same concerns, as i have a work schedule that keeps me from some meetings.  I rely on the various lists to keep myself informed, much like you do,  I attend whenever I can, and vote by proxy whenever I can't.  I accept that these limitations put me on the fringe of things at times, but I do what I can to help as i am able.

 

We've had a lot going on in a short amount of time.  As far as the new space decisions go,  I've pulled myself back from the process because I perceived that it would be better handled by a smaller group, many of which have more knowledge and available time than I have (and their available time has been taxed heavily).  The people who have been involved with this are people I trust to do what is right for us.  This "committee" was made up of our Board plus other interested persons that volunteered.

 

Nobody thinks that being unable to attend a meeting makes you "uninterested", but it does definitely make it a challenge to keep informed and involved.  Realistically a lot of things that we do are going end up being done by committee off by themselves.  So how do we do this and stay faithful to our "democratic ideals"?  How can we help people like you and me stay as informed and involved as we would like?

 

I do know that Marshall has been continually pleading for people to get involved.  A lot of work has been done by a small group of people that are overloaded.  I'm going to see if I can help make sure minutes and information stay up to date.  Want to join me?

[Mandie Kramer]

I think part of the problem is that the last meeting's notes (at Techshop) have not yet been posted to my knowledge.

[Amishacker]

Michelle is entirely burnt out from laser sitting and Unobtanium and all the politics and other things.

Could someone please contact her and lighten her load? I am not able to.

[Brandon Wiley]

Indeed. I have been following the co-op conversion and new space discussions on the list. The lack of information is about decisions that have been made and actions which are being taken, not a lack of discussion or opinions.

In the meeting notes about the co-op conversion it just says that the new bylaws have been finalized and that the space is now a co-op. I was under the impression that there would be a vote to accept the new bylaws, so I found this surprising.

Regarding the new space, the last thing it says in the meeting notes is that there are multiple spaces under consideration. It does not say that a space has been chosen, that a lease is being signed, or that the decision has been delegated to the board or a committee. Later, Martin posted that a lease was being signed, so I found this surprising.

So from the mailing list and the meeting notes it is unclear what is happening with the space and how decisions are being made. I would like to put forth the theory that this lack of reporting about important decisions is the problem and not lack of discussion or anything else, and that it is a problem of human communication and not a technical problem to be solved by forums or more mailing lists.

I find it perfectly understandable that the folks that are available on Tuesday evenings for meetings and that are on the other mailing lists where the decision making happens may forget to tell the rest of us what's going on. All I'm saying is that for issues that are of interest to the whole membership, it would be good for everyone to be kept informed of what is happening, and I think this should include people that are just on the main mailing list as those people are members too.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Scott Saunders <spong...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Scott Saunders]

My main concern is making sure that all members are able to participate in making decisions. This means notifying members that a vote is going to take place in the future, detailing what the membership is voting on, and giving everyone an opportunity to vote by email/proxy.

I unfortunately cannot attend the Tuesday meeting because it conflicts with the annual EAST town hall meeting. Looking at the agenda, there are three [Vote] items. That alerts me that some decisions will be made. That's a good start.

Next, I would like to see the ballot, for lack of a better term. What are we voting on? Votes are yay/nay, so there is some statement that will be put before the membership that we will all approve or deny. What's that statement? Let's put that in the agenda.

Then, since we have a vote scheduled - let's post the items on the members list and ask everyone who can't be at the meeting in person to send in their vote. After the vote, let's send out another email to the members list with the results.

I imagine the main objection is that the actual item being voted on isn't formulated until after some discussion at the meeting. This has been the case for a long time - the item will shift until it's something that has enough consensus to pass and then the vote will take place. And, as we've discussed many times over the years, that's unfair to those who can't be there in person.

- Scott

[Mandie Kramer]

This has traditionally been the role of the Secretary to either perform or delegate. Michelle has also recently been taking up the very important role of event coordination, and needs help. Who would like to step up and take on some of these tasks listed below? It can be more than one person. I'm sure she'd love to have a list of people to call upon when she needs help. 

I have been helping a little when I see a need, and I will soon be posting an itemized list of things that are traditionally the secretary's responsibility so that those who wish to may speak up and say, "I can do that occasionally!"

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

Let's also not forget, buy your voting share, err-body! We're
officially a (real, live) co-op, and a voting share will be needed to
participate in all voting processes.

[Scott Saunders]

That's right! That's now, isn't it?

How many real, live voting members do we currently have?

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

19 signed up at the previous meeting. No idea if more signed up after that point.

[Mandie Kramer]

None of those memberships are valid until they sign their certificate and return it to Martin.

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

Interesting.

I assume all 19, since they've already paid, will sign and return the certificates.

[Brandon Wiley]

Is there information available somewhere on how to do this? This is one of the issues I haven't been able to figure out from reading the mailing list and meeting notes.

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[Angie Bonser-Lain]

Talk to Martin (treasurer). He has to send you an invoice, and put you down for one of our 3 payment plans.

[Brandon Wiley]

Is there no document other than the new bylaws which says how one can become a member of the co-op? Is this information part of the proposed recruitment brochure? Is this information on the website somewhere that I haven't found?

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

All good questions. I know we showed folks how to do it in the meeting, so it'll be in the meeting notes....but it definitely needs to be on our website somewhere. I don't know who is in charge of the website, but whoever you are, get to it!

It does start with an email to the treasurer however, asking for a voting share.

[Brandon Wiley]

There is nothing in the meeting notes about voting shares, payment plans, or emailing the treasurer. I also can't determine from the available information how much shares cost. I do look forward to seeing this information on the website though! Also if anyone has information on voting shares, please send it to the list. Thanks!

[Paul Bonser]

Yeah, one of the main issues is that the notes from the meeting we had at Techshop are not posted. There is, however, a video. If you watch that video, you can get the information everyone else has. Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qceCi0DsBw

[Paul Bonser]

You'll want to skip to about 20 minutes in to when the meeting actually starts :P

[Martin Bogomolni]

21, once they sign their joinder agreements

[Brandon Wiley]

Paul, I think perhaps you have identified the source of all of the confusion. What's up with the meeting notes? Are they going to be posted eventually?

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Paul Bonser <mist...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

The secretary is currently drowning in responsibilities and tasks. She could use a hand or two getting the notes up to date, and such. Anyone interested in helping, please email her!

[Angie Bonser-Lain]

However, the quick and dirty of it is....
$100 per voting share, one share per person
Payment plans available, or pay in one lump sum
Absolutely no voting privilages without voting share
'Members'=voting share
'Patrons'=no voting share
No other limitations are set upon patrons, except that they can't vote. All other access (building, tools, classes, etc) are equal.

To start, email Martin. He will invoice you and send you a thingymajigger to sign. After your first payment, sign and return, you can vote.

[Brandon Wiley]

Thanks for posting this, Angie! This is very important information for everyone to have. I also learned from the video that having a voting share is required in order to vote starting December 1st, so it is important to get started on this process soon, particularly if it requires something to be first mailed and then mailed back before you are able to vote.

[MElbert]

Another important thing about voting is that as a Member with a vote will receive a ballot (probably in the mail) to fill out and send in if they cannot attend a meeting.

If you do not submit that mail in vote and you do not attend the meeting, it will be considered an abstention.

Because these card will need time to be sent out and returned, it means nothing can go up for a vote at the last minute and everybody will have plenty of time to be informed and consider the options.

[Danny Miller]

Or at least one $1000 Investment share.  That pays 6% interest.  You can buy more than one Investment share but you'll still only have one vote.

Either a $1000 Investment share or a $100 voting share can be sold back to the Hackerspace later.

Shares are separate from member dues.  You still need to pay the same monthly dues to use the HS, regardless of share ownership.

Danny

[Martin Bogomolni]

[Mandie Kramer]

As I have been informed, that type of mail in voting is only for the big quarterly and yearly meetings.  Email proxy voting is still valid for the rest of the meetings.

[Evelyn]

Everyone has valid point BUT if you were to take a look at the http://www.atxhackerspace.org/wiki/Agenda_Items

and I wish there was a way to show the history of it.... the person that keeps that page updated has indeed indicated 

"action items" and "voting items" in advance to the actual meeting.

I have seen them so as a member of ATXHS, I make sure to (if anything) to check this page.  It's the quickest way to 

stay update on the top level issues.  If I wanted more detailed information than do as I have done and get involved.

Granted everyone has complicated lives and in all fairness; I think the board has done an excellent job of keeping

people informed by several methods (google groups, dedicated emails, wiki site, google hangout, irc, facebook

and at meetings).  For a group of people who are volunteering their time and resources while indirectly/directly 

experiencing strain and stress in both work and home, there is only so much this group of people can do.

If you feel so strongly about this, what are you gonna do about it?

[Evelyn]

Marshall also provided the following slide ATX Hackerspace Agenda Slideshow 2012/11/06

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EqeQmc3u7M630s_b1ce0lDcmScpH5GRFg_aspmi1zRM/edit#slide=id.p

at the meeting that was on google hangout which was uploaded to Youtube.

Enjoy.

[MElbert]

Okay, the meeting notes have been recovered, refined and re-formatted

http://atxhackerspace.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes/20121106

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